Who is St. Julian of Norwich? PART 02

Apr 27, 2026

A dive into Julian of Norwich’s bold mystical vision with focus on maternal imagery and the idea of Christ as true mother. Conversations explore laughter as resistance, including a quirky link to Nicki Minaj, and how defiant joy challenges oppressive powers. The discussion also traces muscular Christianity, evangelical networks, and tensions between historical figures like Billy and Franklin Graham.

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INSIGHT

Christ As True Mother Reframes Birth And Suffering

Julian of Norwich merges mother and child imagery for Christ to show both suffering companion and nurturing source of rebirth.
Lizzie McManus-Dale connects this to John 3 and her own postpartum moment, seeing relentless, tender love that endures imperfect humanity.

ANECDOTE

Bath Time Moment Made Julian's Love Tangible

Lizzie recounts bathing her two-month-old daughter and feeling raw, ferocious parental love that opened her to Julian's vision of God.
That intimate parenting moment became a lens for seeing God's honest, non-shaming gaze.

INSIGHT

Laughter As Theological Response To Evil

Julian's community laughs at the 'no thing' (the devil) while Christ does not laugh because Christ knows the depth of suffering.
Hall reads this as empowering: laughter signals the devil's defeat, not mockery of pain.

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What does the raucous laughter of Nicki Minaj and Billy Graham have to do with 14th century saint?

Find out in PART TWO of our MOST requested episodes ever -- diving deep into the question "Who is Saint Julian of Norwich???" Author of Revelations of Divine Love, coiner of the phrase "All Shall Be Well," and delighter in God's delight, St. Julian is such a powerful visionary and leader we needed two episodes to do her justice.

We're joined again by the The Rev. Dr. Amy Laura Hall, one of Lizzie's professors from her time at Duke Divinity School.

In part two, we explore "Christ as our true mother," the nature of the devil, and we see how Julian has echoes for us to consider in today's religious landscape. We also get a little teaser for Dr. Hall's new book, out in May 2026, called ERECTING THE PULPIT: MUSCULAR CHRISTIANITY FROM TEDDY ROOSEVELT TO DONALD TRUMP.

Amy Laura Hall is Associate Professor of Christian Ethics and Gender, Sexuality, and Feminist Studies at Duke University, where she has taught since 1999. She is the author of four books, including Conceiving Parenthood: American Protestantism and the Spirit of Reproduction (2007) and Laughing at the Devil: Seeing the World with Julian of Norwich (2018). A noted authority on Christianity and culture in the U.S., Hall has also contributed provocative essays on Protestantism and politics to Religion Dispatches and Religion News Service.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Laughing at the Devil: Seeing the World with Julian of Norwich by Amy Laura Hall https://www.dukeupress.edu/laughing-at-the-devil

Revelations of Divine Love by Julian of Norwich trans. by Elizabeth Spearing https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/261039/revelations-of-divine-love-by-julian-of-norwich-translated-by-elizabeth-spearing-introduction-and-notes-by-a-c-spearing/

Julian of Norwich and the Mystical Body Politic of Christ By Frederick Christian Bauerschmidt --https://undpress.nd.edu/9780268022082/julian-of-norwich/

The Writings of Julian of Norwich A Vision Showed to a Devout Woman and A Revelation of Love Edited by Nicholas Watson and Jacqueline Jenkins -- https://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-02547-6.html?srsltid=AfmBOoopOJOEaY69eupR8Rx1uxzSJyVJpaSpLJKpJoHSPKAQ9ry8HPJY

Rev. Dr. Amy Laura Hall's works:

FORTHCOMING: Erecting the Pulpit: Muscular Christianity from Teddy Roosevelt to Donald Trump

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/erecting-the-pulpit-9798216383475/

Laughing at the Devil: Seeing the World with Julian of Norwich by Amy Laura Hall https://www.dukeupress.edu/laughing-at-the-devil

https://arcmag.org/home-movies-for-holy-week/

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More about Father Lizzie:

BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/762683/god-didnt-make-us-to-hate-us-by-rev-lizzie-mcmanus-dail/

RevLizzie.com

https://www.instagram.com/rev.lizzie/

https://www.tiktok.com/@rev.lizzie

Jubilee Episcopal Church in Austin, TX - JubileeATX.org

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More about Mother Laura:

https://www.instagram.com/laura.peaches/

https://www.tiktok.com/@mother_peaches

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Theme music:

"On Our Own Again" by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue).

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