Converts, Humility, and Winning Over Opponents

*Disclaimer* This episode contains strong language

George Conway — the conservative lawyer turned leading Trump critic, Lincoln Project co-founder, and now Democratic congressional candidate in New York — joins the Chuck Toddcast for an urgent, no-holds-barred conversation about what he sees as an existential crisis for American constitutional government. Conway, who became a Republican in the 1980s as a "legal conservative" grounded in the Constitution, argues that the party he once joined is now unrecognizable, and that young people have been led to believe conservatism and Trumpism are the same thing. He makes an impassioned case that a third impeachment of Trump isn't just politically justified but a constitutional imperative, warning that Trump is psychologically deteriorating while controlling the military and nuclear arsenal, creating a domestic army through ICE, and presiding over what Conway calls the most corrupt government in America's 250-year history. He points to Mitch McConnell's failure to vote for conviction during the second impeachment trial as the hinge point that could have changed everything — and argues that if impeachment doesn't apply to what Trump has done, the mechanism has no meaning.

The conversation goes beyond Trump himself into deeper structural questions about how to repair American democracy. Conway endorses the bipartisan constitutional amendment circulating in the House to nullify presidential pardons — citing Trump intermediaries allegedly being paid for sold pardons — but argues that statutory fixes will be more achievable than amendments, and that Congress needs to codify the old "norms" into enforceable law. He argues that that Democrats should fight fire with fire,  with Chuck warning it only feeds whataboutism, and makes the case for incrementalism and welcoming converts rather than saying "I told you so" — pointing to figures like Marjorie Taylor Greene as case studies in evolving away from Trump. Throughout, Conway returns to a central theme: that no positive policy agenda is possible until the current constitutional crisis is resolved, and that America simply cannot survive three more years of a government working to serve one man.

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Timeline:

00:00 George Conway joins the Chuck ToddCast

01:30 The Republican party is unrecognizable today

02:30 Why George became a Republican in the 80’s

04:00 George was a “legal” conservative based on the Constitution

05:00 Nixon did some not so conservative things because they were popular

06:30 Young people think conservatism & Trumpism are the same thing

07:15 The Democratic party is trying to fit a broad coalition under one tent

08:00 We can’t have serious policy debates until the current crisis is over

09:30 Hating corrupt politicians of all stripes, not just one side

10:30 Can’t retire because the last few years have been appalling

11:45 The courts aren’t equipped to deal with someone like Trump

13:30 Could a third impeachment trial weaken the impeachment process?

14:30 Mitch McConnell choked during Trump’s 2nd impeachment trial

15:00 If McConnell voted to convict, others would have followed

16:00 If we can’t impeach Trump for what he’s done… Then why have impeachment?

17:15 Do we want a constitutional government or not?

19:00 Impeaching Trump is as constitutional imperative for congress

19:30 Trump is deteriorating psychologically and controls military & nukes

20:15 Trump is creating his own domestic army with ICE

21:00 The Republic, the constitution and rule of law are all on the line

21:45 We can’t survive three more years of this

22:45 In 250 years, we’ve never seen a government this corrupt

24:30 The internet & media only have so much bandwidth, can’t handle Trump

25:45 The government is only working to serve one man

26:45 If we don’t impeach Trump, we’re throwing out the constitution

27:30 Can you convince Hakeem Jeffries to impeach Trump a 3rd team?

28:30 Trump & his actions will only get worse in the coming months

30:30 American politics has deteriorated due to the weakness of congress

31:00 Everything has gone to the courts since congress won’t legislate

32:15 Constitutional amendment to nullify pardons introduced in house

34:30 Passing amendments is hard, statutory fixes will be easier to pass

36:00 Congress gets to set the rules, and has defaulted on responsibility

36:45 The old “norms” need to be codified into law

38:15 Our backs are against the wall, normal politics don’t apply 

40:00 Fighting fire with fire feeds into “whataboutism”

41:30 Want to go back to an America where the president isn’t a “piece of shit”

44:00 Only four people control congress & that’s the problem

44:45 What do you say to the voter who supports Trump for policy reasons?

46:15 Nobody has done more damage to restriction immigration than Trump

47:15 How did the Reagan GOP you joined become Trump acolytes?

48:00 Victimhood is clearly the currency of the right

49:45 The right’s grievance complex leads them to only oppose the left

51:00 The case for incrementalism, democracy is a dialogue

52:15 There is a nihilistic animus amongst Trump’s inner circle

54:45 Bush has stayed fairly quiet about Trump, should have spoken sooner

57:45 The only way to win converts is to welcome them i.e. Marjorie Taylor-Greene

58:45 Mike Pence deserves credit for J6, but should have conceded in November

1:00:00 Marjorie Taylor-Greene is a case study in evolving away from Trump

1:02:30 The spirit of democracy requires being to admit you were wrong 

1:03:15 Nobody likes to hear “I told you so” - It’s why Trumpism has persisted

1:04:30 What questions do voters ask you that aren’t about Trump?

1:07:15 We can’t do positive things for people until Trump is gone

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