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Description:If you’ve ever whispered, Is this it?—if you’ve been doing “all the right things” and still feel that unfinished ache humming under your skin—go ahead and hit download.

Jen is joined by her beloved friend (and actual genius) Kate Bowler to talk about her new book, Joyful Anyway—a bracing, funny, tender rebellion against the optimization industrial complex. This is not a “choose joy” pep talk where somebody sprints past you tossing a Live Laugh Love pillow at your face. Kate is here for the after: after the before-and-after story didn’t pan out, after grief and guilt and longing set up permanent residence, after you realized happiness is fragile and reality keeps kicking in.

Together, Jen, Amy, and Kate name what so many of us can’t quite articulate: the ache—that “achy, stabby want” at the center of our lived experience. They talk about why we need permission just to be human, why “performing resilience” is exhausting, and how telling the truth can loosen the grip of the story that’s been swallowing the rest of our life.

Kate also shares an unforgettable story about a snake bite, an ER, and a moment of unexpected mercy that cracked something open—proof that joy doesn’t always come through the front door. Sometimes it slips in sideways, like grace. Like a sudden, full-bodied yes—even when nothing is resolved.

You’ll also hear about:

• The difference between happiness (fragile and expensive) and joy (sneaky, un-schedulable, and—somehow—free)

• How joy finds us through embodied moments—beauty, absurdity, paying attention

• The Burn Book / Resentment List and why making a “this scarred me, this counted” list might be the most faithful thing you do all week (including Kate’s deeply personal grievance about her tragically unaesthetic family gravesite)

• Roadside Joy Detours: Kate’s practice of putting herself “in the way of joy” with absurd road trips to local oddities

• And Kate’s reminder: you are a song—don’t die with it still inside you

Bottom line: if you’re quietly undone, if your body feels weary, if the headlines have you spiraling—Kate is here with permission, language, and a weird little flashlight. The ache stays. But joy still shows up. Sometimes as grace. Sometimes as absurdity. Sometimes as a roadside attraction you drove two hours to see for no reason—except you’re alive, and that’s reason enough.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “I think there's a great mystery at the heart of the human experience and I wanted to explore joy as one of those unbelievable places.” – Kate Bowler

• “The purpose of that ache inside you is to get you to re-examine how it feels in your body, bring your honesty to it, and then ask, where can I go from here? Where can this take me that's lovelier than here?” – Kate Bowler

• “I find that absurdity is one of the side doors to joy.” – Kate Bowler

• “Joy is asking us to step up to the edge of a mystery where we get momentary fulfillment and then we get life. And God is asking us to say that this is holy.” – Kate Bowler

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• Joyful Anyway by Kate Bowler - https://amzn.to/3ZWqNBT

• Kate Bowler book tour - https://katebowler.com/books/joyfulanyway/#tour

• Theo of Golden: A Novel by Allen Levi- https://amzn.to/4bdpN2q

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://katebowler.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/katecbowler/

Twitter - https://x.com/katecbowler

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/katecbowler

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf8m7lNdR7YVieU0muCg5cg

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@katecbowler

Substack - https://katebowler.substack.com/

Podcast - https://katebowler.com/podcasts/

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. 

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