Outcomes vs outputs and what companies celebrate

We’re joined by Thomas Hartmann, co‑founder of Product Masterclass and co-author of From Project to Product Mode: A Game Plan to Unlock Scalability for B2B Software Products, for a candid look at why so many B2B software companies get stuck in “project mode” and what it really takes to become product‑led.Thomas shares his journey from entrepreneurship and lean startup experiments in San Francisco and Munich and to working with large organizations trying (and often failing) to scale. 

Over years of coaching and transformation work, he and his co‑founder and co-author, Sebastian Borggrewe, saw the same pattern: teams with a strong product mindset trapped inside companies that still behave like project shops, where sales and single big clients dictate the roadmap and success is measured by project delivery, not product outcomes.

Join Matt and Moshe as they explore with Thomas:
- How to recognize whether your company is truly in project mode or product mode


- Why B2B software behaves very differently from B2C when making this shift


- The “egg” analogy: product teams as the yolk, surrounded by an environment (the egg white) that often doesn’t care how things get built, only that they ship


- The seven areas that fundamentally differ between project and product companies: segmentation, pricing, discovery, prioritization, engineering, configuration, and product management structures


- Concrete signs of project mode: sales defining what to build, time‑and‑materials pricing, no real discovery, prioritization driven by the loudest customer, and PMs blocked from end users


- Why not every company needs to become a product company, and why it’s a strategic choice, not dogma


- A step‑by‑step path to move from project to product mode:


- Step 1: Align leadership and name the current state (you are a project org)


- Step 2: Find alignment among all product leaders on what to change


- Step 3: Prioritize which of the seven areas to tackle first (you can’t fix everything at once)


- Step 4: Enable the workforce and shift the surrounding “egg white,” not just product team skills


- How AI fits differently in project vs. product organizations: as a delivery accelerator in one, and as a strategic validation and discovery tool in the other


- Why tools like Claude Code can help PMs brainstorm, validate, and visualize, but won’t fix a broken mindset or culture


- And much more!


Want to learn more or work with Thomas?
- Product Masterclass: https://www.product-masterclas...
- From Project to Product Mode book: https://www.product-masterclass.com/book-project-to-product
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/th...


You can also connect with us and find more episodes:
- Product for Product Podcast:

http://linkedin.com/company/pr...
- Matt Green:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ma...
- Moshe Mikanovsky:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mik...
Note: Any views mentioned in the podcast are the sole views of our hosts and guests, and do not represent the products mentioned in any way.

Please leave us a review and feedback ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️