Property Management Growth with DoorGrow

In the United States, millions of residential properties are owned and rented out by individual landlords, not professional property managers. Why not protect yourself from painful experiences with tenants, have peace of mind, and leave it to the professionals? Today, I am talking to Dave Holt of SureVestor, which provides Scheer Landlord Protection. This insurance plan financially protects landlords and property managers from tenant-related risks. SureVestor is at the forefront of leading a trend that can significantly help grow the industry. You'll Learn... [01:45] Passion for Property Management: Dave joined NARPM nearly 30 years ago and has gone through its entire chain of command. [02:51] Reasons why Scheer Landlord Protection was brought to America: Significant growth impact on property management industry in Australia Way to make, but not lose money Opportunity to turn self-managed landlords into professional property managers [05:22] Is the United States ready for similar level of growth? Whether companies grow exponentially, or at their own pace, insurance can help them get there. [07:06] Can't control what happens in people's lives; when bad things happen to good tenants, property managers experience frustration and stress. [08:05] Who's to blame? Things happen that create a financial burden; Scheer Landlord Protection covers income loss for landlords and property managers. [09:32] Malicious Damage by Tenants: Insurance covers holes in walls, cabinets ripped off walls, sand poured down drains, etc. [09:47] Blanket of Coverage: Indirect and direct benefits create safety for all parties. [13:45] Property manager requirement helps insurance company mitigate risk. [16:33] Competition: Focusing on criteria of quantity over quality. Most property managers don't have an insurance license; be compliant and legal to protect industry. [22:40] Tiered Pricing: Clients know the cost to be protected. [24:58] FAQs: How do I market this to my owners? How can I implement it? Follow SureVestor's steps to success. Tweetables Scheer Landlord Protection: Grow exponentially, or at your own pace. When bad things happen to good tenants, property managers get stressed out. For most landlords, rental property is their most expensive investment. Scheer Landlord Protection: Covers malicious damage, eviction costs, and loss of rent. Resources SureVestor Dave Holt's Email Dave Holt's Phone Number: 612-465-0421 SureVestor's Blog National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) California NARPM Terri Scheer Lloyd's of London The Iceberg Report U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. I have a guest today named Dave Holt. Dave is here talking with me about landlord protection insurance from SureVestor. Dave, welcome to the show. Dave: Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it. Jason: I just got to see you at CALNARPM in your British soldier outfit that you had there. I want to connect with you a little bit here. Give us a little bit about background on how you got into this industry and into this space. Dave: Yeah, you bet. I've been in property management, that's really my industry. I've been in the business for over 30 years. I started managing for HUD back in the mid-80s, got introduced to property management in single-family homes, and started my fee management company in the late '80s. That's where I ran into a fledgling organization that was just starting out called NARPM. I got involved with NARPM early on. I actually started in 1990. I've been a member ever since and gone through the whole chain of command there. Property management is my passion. Throughout that whole process, I've met with thousands of property managers throughout the years. Like you, Jason, always looking to see how we can improve the industry and came across an opportunity. We're actually teaching over Australia. Both my partners, Kevin Knight and Todd Breen, had taught over there. We came across a product that was over Australia and had been there for 25 years. We're wondering, "Why isn't that here in the US?" Actually, long story short, joint ventured with the creator of the product from Australia, Terri Scheer, it still sells under her name over there, Terri Scheer insurance. She has since sold her business over there. Now, has joined forces with us to bring the product here to the US. Jason: Awesome. My understanding of that is that this product has significant impact on the growth of industry as a whole in Australia. Dave: Yeah, that's very true, that's one of the reasons why we wanted to bring it here, it's not just something, "Hey, here's something that we can make money doing," that really wasn't the crux of what we bought it here for, and you hit it on the head. What we look at in our industry here in the US, it's 15 times the size of Australia. When you look at the number of properties that are owned here by individual landlords, it's over 15 million single-family homes that are actually owned and rented out, a small fraction of those is handled professionally by us professional property managers. If we have an opportunity to bring a product here that can help drawing those self-managed landlords to us as professional property managers, that's what we're looking to do. Over in Australia, that actually happened. About 15%, increased in the business for professional property managers because the beauty of this product is that it's only available for landlords that are professionally managed and we did that intentionally, we did that over in Australia as well. Those self-managed landlords have to come to us as professionals in order to get this product. Hence, we're looking to be increasing the number of properties that are managed by us, professionals. Jason: Now, I have heard stats thrown around like the property management industry in Australia grew about 25% in a single decade. I don't know if that's accurate, but that sounds pretty incredible. I also have heard that they have about 80% of single-family residential is professionally managed. Dave: That's right. Jason: Here in the US, according to the [...] report, we're at about 30%. If the industry here could grow in a decade to maybe about 25%, that would mean that we would pretty much double in size. I don't think there are enough management companies in the US right now that can handle that level of growth. That would mean we either need to double the amount of companies that exist now—that's a lot—or each company would need to double in size. I think that would be incredibly painful for most business owners. Dave: Maybe, maybe not. Obviously, your DoorGrow hackers are looking to be growing that's why they're part of your endeavor. It's not that they have to grow exponentially, but they can grow at their own pace. Certainly, it's something that, if they can use the insurance to help them get there, that's what we're all about, and looking to help them do. Yes, we saw it happen over Australia, we don't see why we can't replicate that here. Jason: Let's break this down, and help people understand. Maybe we start from the point of, how do you sell this product, but let's first talk clearly of what is it. What is SureVestor? What is this insurance product? Then I would love to get into basically talking about what's in it for the homeowner? How do you sell this to them? We get into those two things, and then I think the light bulbs will start to go on, and they can start to see how this can be a facilitator of growth here in the US. Dave: You bet. It's probably better to start from my experience as a property manager. Obviously, we're all property managers. Really, the frustrations that we've experienced, as property managers over the years, is when bad things happen to our good tenants is really the situation. It's very stressful. We know that we do a professional job of screening our tenants and getting the best quality tenants for our landlords, but we can't control what happens in people's lives, whether it's a job loss, a divorce, a death in the family—things that can happen in someone's lives that create a situation of financial burden. Now, all of a sudden, if they're renting a property, they may be more inclined to skip or stay there, and not pay the rent, and now, we have to evict them as professionals. It's very painful. For a lot of us in the single-family space, those owners owned one property. If something bad happens to their tenants, and now all of a sudden they're out of three months of rent because of it, that's a lot of their income. A lot of them say, "You know what, this isn't for me." They decide to sell or worst, they blame us as the property manager because we're the ones who screen the tenants, and they say, "It's your fault that this happened. I'm going to somebody else." In either case, we've lost the business. If we had a product, which we do now, through SureVestor and sure landlord protection insurance, that covers the loss of rent for those type of things; a tenant skips, they have to be evicted, they are victims of violence—we've had that happen as well—or there's a death of a sole tenant, or murder, or suicide. I've experienced all of those over the 30 plus years of business. That rent then is not paid, and our landlord is out of money. Us, as property managers, most of us are charging our management fee based on the rents collected, and if that rent isn't collected, we're not getting paid either. This insurance covers all that. It covers it for the landlord. It covers it for the property managers as well. Then, there are some additional benefits. Malicious damage caused by the tenants, that's something that we've experienced as well. They punched holes in the walls, ripped cabinets off the walls, they pour sand on the drains, things that are malicious, there's coverage for that. There's coverage for theft and damage due to theft. There's the eviction fees and legal offense if the tenant brings it to trial. There's the covering of the sheriff cost if you have to get a writ and go through that whole process. We even have lockbox coverage for a digital lockbox. For property managers who are now doing self-showings, many times, they get some pushback from their landlord clients about doing that because of, "Well, what happens if." Now, there's some coverage for that as well and then, rekeying of the locks after those covered events happen. It's a way where we can, with the insurance, make that landlord whole and also make us whole as property managers. One other thing too, a lot of us as property managers are guaranteeing our tenants for some period of time. If something does happen to that tenant and they breach the lease, we will re-lease the property for nothing, for no charge, for our landlord. Now, when you have insurance that covers the loss of rent, the malicious damage, the eviction cost, and those types of things, you now have the security deposit available to cover your re-leasing fees among other things. Jason: There could be divorce, job loss, death of a family, violence, malicious damage, malicious damage theft. Then things like, eviction fees, legal fees, writ fees, lockbox coverage, rekeying after theft. It really creates this safety for all parties involved. Dave: Absolutely. When you think about it, for most of our landlord clients, their rental property is the most expensive investment they have. They get dwelling coverage because that's all they know. They get dwelling coverage to cover the catastrophe-type of damage, the fires, and things that can happen to the property. The things that happen more frequently are the things that we're covering—the loss of rent because a tenant skips, they maliciously damage the property and the other things that we went through. Why wouldn't they get coverage to give them that peace of mind, so when those things happen to their tenant, now, they're protected as well? It gives them an overall blanket of coverage, that gives them that peace of mind so now, they can rent their property with confidence, and hopefully, stay with us as property managers longer because they don't have to have that fear of, "What if?" Because now they're going to have coverage for that. Hopefully, draw in more landlord clients that might have that fear. Some of them decide, they just want to sell to begin with because they go, "You know what? I can't afford a loss. I can't afford one of those situations that happen, and now I'm out of rent, and I've got a mortgage to pay." It's a way where we can keep new owners and a way where we can attract new owners as well to us. Jason: Yeah. Creating this blanket of coverage sounds really significant and important. If it's not there, then even having a rental property investment can be a risk. Maybe it's a risk that a lot of property owners are either ignoring or aren't aware of if they're actually involved in real estate investing. There's a lot of self-managing homeowners that are like, "Oh, it's easy. I just need a tenant." Famous last words. Then they start running into problems, but even for property management business owners, you don't want to be the fall guy or gal for those problems when they happen, you want your business to be healthy. Since this is so important, to have this blanket of coverage, as you call it, and it has such an impact in Australia, is this something that only property managers have access to, why don't people just go and get these policies directly and self-manage, how's this driving people towards property managers? Dave: We have purposely set it up where individual landlords have to go through a professional property manager to get this coverage. If a landlord goes on to our page and looks at the, "For landlords," it actually, guides them through the process and says, "Do you have a professional property manager?" If they don't, we actually find one for them. One of our property managers at SureVestor and we refer them to them and get them new business that way, as well. Jason: The requirement of them to have a property manager probably also helps the insurance company mitigate their own risk. Dave: You got it. Absolutely. Over in Australia, it's been around for 25 plus years. Now, it's open to individual landlords over there now because it's a more mature product. Starting out, our underwriters wanted to kind of mimic the initial process that Australia took, which was making it available only for landlords that were professionally managed, that's something that really resonated with us, not just because of the underwriting of it, but more so, to help bring in the self-managed landlords to us, as professionals, and help us grow our businesses. Jason: Alright. I'm going to give you an opportunity to throw stones at the competition a little bit. The competition is anything that people might perceive as something similar or reason not to use something like SureVestor. Are there competitors that just go direct or don't have that sort of stipulation that you have to use a property manager, and have some sort of insurance-like product? Dave: Yeah. I'm not aware of it. There are some startups that are happening now. Obviously, when something's out in the cosmos, we're not the only ones thinking about it, there are certainly other companies out there that are starting, I know a couple of them. I'm not necessarily sure that they're going direct to the landlord or not, one might be, but that's just because my thinking would be, "They don't see the risk." But we know our business, and we're property managers-first, and so we want to be helping our colleagues grow. One of the ways to do it is to make it only available for landlords that are professionally managed. We know that we do things professionally. A lot of self-managed landlords, they don't follow the same criteria. Some of them do, but a lot of them just do the, "You look good," the feel test. Say, "Oh, yeah. He seemed like a really nice person. Go ahead and rent my property." Then they find out it's not so safe after all. We decided not to do that. We wanted to have it available just for the landlords that are professionally managed. I can't comment on any competition that's doing it, why they do that, other than, they just want to try to get as many as they can, they're focused on the numbers. That's not our intent. Our intent first is to provide a great product to our property management colleagues that can help them retain landlord clients, and help them bring out new ones. Jason: Right. I would imagine that since you've got these different parties involved, you've got property manager, you've got renter, you've got homeowner, and then anybody else could get into the mix in any of the drama that ensues with all of these—this really reduces the risk for all parties. I imagine there's products out there that look similar on the surface, but somebody's getting the short end of the stick, I think that would be dangerous. Regardless of who that is, it's going to end up as a problem for everybody. It makes sense that you guys are doing it right, focusing on making sure that this, really is, the best option for everybody involved and that a professional manager is involved in this process. That's exactly right. We have vetted this thing over three-and-a-half years. It started from the foundation and make sure that we had everything in place to make sure that our industry is covered, and we're providing the best quality to our landlord clients. That takes a lot of work getting that together that's why we have the world-renowned, Terri Scheer, started this. This whole thing. I mean, every single company has mimicked what she's doing, if there are any copycats around because she was the first. We have Lloyd's of London as our underwriters. The first and the largest insuring entity syndicates in the world covering this type of thing. It gives us more security and backing for our landlord clients and our property managers. The thing that property managers, when they're looking out what other competition there is out there, they've got to be really careful when people are saying, "Hey, you can monetize this, you can make money as a new revenue stream," and so forth. Most property managers are not licensed in insurance. In insurance, similar to our property management industry, is very heavily regulated. If you're doing things that look and sound like insurance, for example, you have certain programs whether it's guarantees or other types of protection programs that you're making money off of, that can be construed as selling insurance. If you don't have a license that can be an issue. Everything that we're putting together is legal. The ways that we're making this available for landlord clients, and for property managers, and even starting to create processes where they can benefit better from it, that's what we're all about—to make sure we're protecting our industry. Jason: Yeah. This is a common thing. A lot of property managers, especially the more entrepreneurial ones, get really creative, and they're thinking, "Man, I got this great idea for this new gimmick or this new thing. I can sell this guarantee, this warranty, this protection." It's almost like insurance. It works almost like insurance. There are some significant red flags that they could be putting themselves into some serious legal liability. Dave: That's exactly right. Jason: They're basically, doing insurance without a license. You need to be careful. You guys help them do it the right way. Now, you had mentioned, they're doing it to generate revenue. Now with your service, property managers can make some money too, right, they're not just lowering risk? Dave: When we're saying making money, the benefits are more indirect than direct. For example, as I mentioned, when the rent isn't paid, the management isn't getting their management fee. When the insurance is covering the rent, now the rent is paid because of the insurance, the property manager collects their management fee. Yes, that's a direct benefit, that's income to them. Most of the property managers have some sort of guarantee for the tenants, as I mentioned. When something bad happens, and they have to re-lease the property, that's a lot of out of pocket for them. Now, when the insurance is covering that loss of rent, that deposit doesn't have to go those things which it typically, does. Now, you have that deposit available to pay the re-leasing fee that the tenant would otherwise owe you as a property manager. You're making money indirectly through that. Here's another idea, Jason, that a lot of property managers, including myself, we'd gone to tiered pricing. What tiered pricing is that you have different levels of pricing for your landlord clients. Usually, your first tier is leasing-only, your middle tier is your traditional management, so it's an a la carte, you're paying for whatever service you get, your management fees, your lease fees, your inspection, your evictions—all that stuff is an additional cost. Then you have your top tier and the top tier is an all-inclusive or mostly inclusive, type of tier. You can charge more for that tier. What property managers are doing is they're paying for the insurance in their top tier, and so it makes that top tier more valuable in the eyes of, obviously, of the landlord client. That landlord goes, "Well, I mean, I can pay this amount and know what all of my costs are. I can get the insurance to cover in the event of a bad thing happening to my tenant." That's a more predictable result for an investor. They know that cost, they know that they have the protection, and that gives them that peace of mind. That's a process that a lot of property managers are going to. In the top tier, even though you can't upcharge the insurance, you can charge higher to be including all of your charges, all of your fees, into one. Jason: Got it. They fold it into that. Makes sense. In that situation then it becomes an additional value add that allows them to sell their services at a higher price point. Dave: You bet. The insurance help do that and they make more money, you bet. Jason: There you go. Alright, awesome. Dave: Lastly, we are in the process of creating a way where we can legally compensate the property managers. It's something that they're not prepared at this point, to go through in detail, but I would welcome property managers to contact me. I'm more than happy to go through that process with them. Jason: Cool. Okay, great. What are some of the most common questions that you're getting from people that are maybe skeptical or concerned? What are some of the initial questions that property managers might ask about this? Dave: The first is, "How do I market this to my owners? What do I do?" Obviously, we got two parts of that: we have our current owners, and then we have new owners. What we have done is put together the steps to help them with their current owners, for one, and help them bring in new owners. As property managers ourselves, we know we're very busy. We have a hard time implementing things because we are very busy. We get sucked into the day-to-day grind of property management. It's probably what's happening right now. It's the last day of the month. Most property managers are out there doing their move out inspections, move-ins, and doing all that kind of stuff, they're busy. Trying to implement a new thing is always a challenge. We know that because we're property managers too. We've created those steps to help them do it. We've done it for them. We have all the email templates that they send to their current clients, for example. We have the schedule all laid out so that they can just send them out. We have what's called an opt-in, opt-out form. The beauty of that is it gives them a tool—a risk management tool—to use where they can send that out in the email. Just like here, "I'm opting in," and this is for the owner, their landlord client. "I'm opting into this coverage, and this is what I want." It's directing to the property manager, or it's saying, "No. I'm not interested at this time." Now, the property manager has a form. Six months later, when their tenant has to be evicted, and they've opted out with that coverage, if that landlord is coming to the property manager complaining about it, they can say, "We did our duty of care. We told you about this insurance. You opted out of it, don't blame me." We have that. We also have the disclosures and opt-ins that they use in their management agreement. Personally, even if my BDM, my Business Development Manager, who's talking to brand-new owners hasn't mentioned anything about the insurance, they see it in my management agreement. It's already laid out, and we have that addendum of it available for them and their management agreements. That's part of it. The next part is the whole part of bringing on and using it as a point of difference for their new clients. We have scripts that they can use to help in that initial conversation. Again, we have the information that they can use in their property management agreement both—if they're just doing regular pricing, and if they're doing tiered pricing—so we have both. Then we have the marketing information that they can embed, and put on their website with video clips and so forth. We've done all of that for them, so they don't have to recreate it. Our last step is on all implementation. We walk them through the steps of implementing it all. It's really quite simple. A lot of the marketing too, we have what we call a WDIFY, we-do-it-for-you process, and we can even help them do a lot of that marketing as well. Many of your DoorGrow hackers may recall Darren Hunter and Deniz Yusuf because they were at your event just last year. They have put together, since they know this insurance intimately, both of them being from Australia, they have helped put together a whole orientation for BDMs on how to be better at utilizing, not just the insurance, but utilizing tools to help draw new accounts to them. We have that on our site, on our blog site. It's a whole 45 minutes of them going through with their best practices and how to utilize the insurance as that point of difference to draw in new business for them. Jason: Cool. Dave: There are just a lot of tools that we have to make it simple for the property managers because again, we know it's challenging for them to get things implemented. Jason: The number one challenge in any new software, or any new system, or any new tool, is adoption. It sounds like you guys really helped lubricate that process, make it smooth, and make it easy. That's one of the biggest challenges, or complaints when people get into some new system or some new tool or service is, they just don't have the level of support that they need. That's one of the biggest challenges. It sounds like you guys really put a lot of energy and effort into making sure that they have what they need in order to succeed. I mean, the first challenge, making sure they've got the right vehicle, it sounds like—with the backing of Lloyd's as an underwriter and everything—this is like the premier vehicle for this. Then the next question that a business owner would have is, "Well, can I do it? Is this possible?" It sounds like you've got the support, the tools, and the resources that they need. The last concern that people might have is what about external factors? What about the market? Could this go away? Could the government impact us? These sort of things. Are there any potential challenges there? It sounds like you guys have dealt with this stuff to make sure everything's compliant and legal. Dave: There's really no concern there. We just expect that to become more commonplace like it has been over in Australia. For those in your group that aren't familiar with Australia, we consider it almost advanced in property management. I say that because they are even more heavily regulated than we are, it just draws to making them more professional, and so they've got to do things to protect themselves and protect their owners. They're always thinking of new ways. Hence, why this insurance started 25 years ago or so. In a government, in a country that is very highly regulated, it's done nothing but expand. Over here, I don't see it going away. I see it expanding. I see it becoming more commonplace, especially as we're seeing after the global financial crisis, more and more, not just individual investors, but huge hedge funds coming in and buying real estate. Rental property, compared to homeownership, is increasing. As that continues to be the trend, more and more investors and landlords, in general, are going to want to protect themselves, and protect their investment because as I mentioned, it's the most expensive investment that a lot of them have, they want that peace of mind, they want more consistency, and predictability. When you have an insurance product like this, that they can get for as little as $1 a day, I mean, come on, it's a no brainer. We really think that this will become more commonplace. It's already in the insurance industry that's very highly regulated. The things that we go through as far as auditing and making sure that everything's done right is a continual process. We have vetted this to make sure that it is done right and protecting our landlords and protecting our property management colleagues. Jason: Love it. Most of the vendors that we handed out awards to for our DoorGrow Awards for 2018 were because they were the best in class, they were the leaders in a competitive space, that they'd gotten the most attention inside of our DoorGrow Club Facebook Group, they consistently were seen as a leader. We gave SureVestor an award, and it was for this reason because I do see this could be a game changer for the industry. We gave SureVestor, for 2018, the Game Changer Award, was what we called that award. I think, really, SureVestor's at the forefront leading a trend and a movement that I think is going to be happening here in the US, that I think can significantly help the industry, and help grow it, and help lower the risk of investors, and help bring people to the property management space. Property managers lower risk and SureVestor helps lower risk, I think combined, it really can give the property management a much better name here in the US, where people, having managed their biggest asset or investment ever—or whatever you want to call it—that they might ever be dealing with, and keep that risk low. Dave, great to have you on the show. I appreciate you coming on and sharing this. How can people get in touch with SureVestor? What's the next step for people that are listening or watching this later that are interested in finding it out more? Dave: You bet. Thank you. They can go to our website, real simple, surevestor.com. They can contact me as well, daveholt@surevestor.com or they can call me 612-465-0421. Happy to walk them through, happy to guide them through the process, and answer any questions they have. We're just looking to provide a great product to our industry. We really appreciate what you're doing as well, Jason. We think DoorGrow is really on the number. We're happy to support it anyway we can. Jason: Awesome. I appreciate it. Always fun for me to connect with other vendors and other people in the space that have a similar vision and mission for the industry, of helping it grow. Let's change it together. I appreciate you coming on, Dave. Thank you so much. I will let you go. Dave: Alright. Thanks again. Jason: That was surevestor.com. They don't pay me anything. I just think it's exciting. People probably wonder sometimes. Anyway, check them out. If you are not inside of our Facebook group, you're probably missing out on the best tools and the vendors. You're probably missing out on some great fee ideas. You're probably also not super connected to DoorGrow. We would love to help facilitate the growth in your business. I would love to be your coach. I would love to be your consultant to help you do what I've helped lots and lots of clients do which is, add easily, 100 extra doors to your business. If that sounds interesting to you, make sure you reach out to us at doorgrow.com and get inside our community, our Facebook group, community connected to this. Become a DoorGrow hacker. That is by going to doorgrowclub.com and you can join us there. Until next time, everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn, and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Love 'em or hate 'em, most of us have lived with roommates at some point. You probably split expenses and chores, including rent and taking out the trash. Today, I am talking to Tyler Hayes and Joáo Ritter of Roof, which helps roommates resolve problems to live peacefully together and landlords easily collect rent and connect with tenants. You'll Learn... [01:48] How a college hobby project created a company: A group of friends who love to design and build things, like apps, got together to foster productive communities. [02:21] It's good to have friends with different skill sets to make a product even better. [03:17] Roof: A company all about people who share and make a place feel like home and landlords who make space available to those tenants. [03:55] Property vs. Tenant Management: Does your landlord treat you like a human being or asset? Problem-solving by landlords improves relationships with their tenants. [04:45] Pairing up to build an app: Eager to work on meaningful, real-world projects and continue to invest in them. [06:00] What is Roof, and what does it do? Landlord: Gets paid, makes sure home operates as expected, and creates positive renting experience for tenants. Roommates: Share reminders, shopping items, expenses, and anything else they want to exchange while living together. [07:28] Target Audience: Landlords handling a small portfolio of college housing; who know all their tenants by name and care about communicating with them. [08:13] Landlords recognize that renting experiences and services they provide for tenants reflect back on them and their reputation. [08:39] Societal trend toward people moving in together for the sake of economic efficiency; people try to live together, share spaces, and live more cheaply. [09:26] Recipe for Disaster: Relying on one to communicate to entire household. [10:00] Roof app revolves around sharing space between people who all share responsibility for that space. [10:54] Common Challenges: Roof helps solve communication issues and responsibilities masked as reminders for people sharing space. [18:09] People love interacting and inspiring one another to take risks, make the move, offer encouragement and support - Roof's team is part of conversation/common goal. [22:57] Plans to integrate with property management software that lacks Roof's roommate functionality/communication platform? Too cost prohibitive for small investors. [27:53] Future Feature: How Roof decides which features to focus on or throw away. Tweetables Does your landlord treat you like a human being or asset? Roof revolves around sharing space between people who share responsibility for that space. There's always going to be bugs, tweaks, changes—that's just the nature of software. Resources Roof ($20 of transaction fees for free, use code: 3875 DoorGrow) Roof on Twitter Roof on Instagram Roof on Facebook Contact Roof AppFolio Buildium Propertyware Rent Manager Rentec Direct Property Meld Happy Inspector Latchel Myers & Briggs Personality Types Slack BiggerPockets PayLease DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think, you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today, I've got two guests hanging out here with me. My guests are—see if I got the name right—Tyler Hayes and Joáo Ritter. How did I do? They are here from the company Roof, and one of you is the CEO. That's you, Joáo, right? Joáo: That's me, yup. Jason: You're both software engineers. How did you guys get into this? How did you decide, "Hey, property management might be a space that we might want to connect with in some way, shape, or form." Then let's lead in how Roof came to be and what it is? Joáo: Sure. So, we started the company in college actually as a hobby project. I wanted to know how to build an app. I lived with a ton of roommates at the time, and we had a few things that we routinely split amongst ourselves: a few reminders of shopping, other expenses, rent, payments. I started to learn how to build an app by trying to automate some of these things. Part of my brain is naturally inclined to inputting names, and brands and business-fy things. Over time, we took this concept, I was working [...], and several friends wanted to put it on the App store, so we did. We started talking to my good friends who had different skill sets from myself, and we worked together to make the product even better. A couple of years then, super as a hobby project still, we had this app for roommates to solve roommate problems or roommate exchanges. We had a landlord, I remember at the time, Nathan, he really gave a damn about his tenants, about us. He's very much in tune with making sure we had a cozy place to live, the problems got solved, that he addressed us as human beings and not as assets, but his way of collecting rent was still pretty archaic, really easy to get logistics mixed up, and not communicate the way in which was authentic to him. We came to him. We were like, "Hey, look. We have this app for roommates that roommates are enjoying." I think we really want to make this company all about home, about the people who share a home and make a place feel like home and operate well. That actually involves knowing that we're living in the house, but also the landlord to make the space available to tents. Funnily enough, we actually didn't come into the project with the intent of providing value directly to landlords. Our value prop was actually for roommates. I think that actually makes us a really interesting and appealing platform for landlords because their customers are roommates. By addressing the problem less, as a property management problem and more, as a tenant management problem, we really get to the core of the problem solving that you have to do as a landlord: from late payments to reminders to making sure service requests are addressed on time and that the communication is proper between everyone involved; that everyone who shares a home has the ability to stay in tune with the conversation with the landlord as the head of the [...] oftentimes and maybe [...]. That all led us to entertaining the idea of expanding to landlords. Then going all in, "Hey, look, if I'm going to build the platform of the future to make home exchange possible, we have to, not only solve roommate dynamics but also the landlord-tenant relationship." Jason: Tyler, are you one of his roommates, then? Tyler: No. We never lived together. Although, we did both have roommates and we were both in college. Jason: Yeah. How did the two of you kind of pair up in the business here? Tyler: Well, at that time, I was in design school. We were in two different universities, pretty close to each other. At some point, we talked about this idea of building this app. Joao was really interested in figuring out how to build an app, [...] gets to practice in doing that is in trial-by-error, I guess. For me at the time, it was a similar sentiment because being in design school, I was really eager to work on something, some kind of real-world projects, work on something that's going to be meaningful, that I could follow, and continue to invest in. At the time, part of the motivation for starting the project was just like, "Hey, let's just make something." We're interested in learning some things and doing some things like, "Let's just make something." That was kind of it at first. Jason: Yeah, cool. Let's let the audience know what is Roof. If you can give the back story. What the heck is it? What does it do? Joáo: [...] is an app for tenant management. It lets you collect rent payments and manage maintenance requests from your tenants, and communicate with your tenants. It's all about being on the same page with your tenants, you're getting paid and making sure your home operates as you expect, making sure your tenants have a great renting experience. It solves the core functionality the landlord needs when it comes to renting their home and growing their portfolio from there. For roommates, it helps you share your reminders, shopping items, expenses, and anything you may want to exchange throughout your living together. Jason: A lot of people listening, they might have AppFolio, or Buildium, or Propertyware, or Rent Manager or Rentec Direct, or one of this property management sort of back-office accounting solutions and some that might help with the maintenance request stuff. Some of them are okay, some of them a lot of our clients or people listening will use third party tools like Property Meld or Latchel. I'm really interested, and I haven't heard of anything for roommates, so that's pretty unique that you have something that helps facilitate roommates. Do you find that a lot of your target audience are running college housing or dealing with college housing situations? Tyler: Yeah, that's a really big segment of the people that we talk to, but it's not entirely. Generally, it's landlords with a bit of a smaller portfolio. The kind of people who probably know all the tenants by name, who would otherwise maybe be texting their tenants, having that kind of relationship with them. Basically, landlords who care about communication and especially landlords who care about actually just doing things that their tenants are going to appreciate. Because ultimately, for a lot of landlords, they recognize that the services that they can provide, the renting experience that they can provide for their tenants, is ultimately going to be reflected as their brand as a property manager, as a landlord. For landlords who want to invest in that, those are typically the ones that we see most invested in Roof. Joáo: Yeah, totally but let me double down on what you said. I think there's a lot to be said about the societal trend towards people moving in together, not for the sake of a family necessarily, but for the sake of economic efficiency. People are moving into urban areas, people are moving into college towns for school, and whatnot. Instead of living on the outskirts and pay cheaper, people try to live together and share spaces and live more cheaply. I bet a lot of landlords listening in here have rentals that they rent—not to single families—even though they may be single-family homes but actually to people who share a space as roommates, who may otherwise don't really have a relationship with one another apart from being roommates who may have found each other on craigslist or some service. What you'd probably run into as a landlord in those circumstances is you have to keep up a relationship with them. Normally, you have one head of the house, someone on the lease, or someone that you have their email, that you go to directly and expect them to convey the message to the rest of the house. That's kind of a recipe for disaster when you talk about communication when you're trying to rely on one person to communicate an idea or a circumstance to a whole household. The core of our app revolves around sharing space and sharing space between people who all share the responsibility of the space. If you're a landlord who finds himself in this puzzle of trying to manage roommates, it makes it a lot easier to reach out in one spot, allow roommates to split payments as they will as long as you get the full rent ship at the month and then give them, as Tyler had said, a great experience meanwhile. There's a lot to be said about that. I think we have a lot to grow to accommodate larger portfolios which we fully intend to do. But for the time being, it's 100% focused on landlords who see the opportunity in creating a brand for themselves and experience for their tenants and solving problems through effective communication. Jason: What are some of the challenges that people sharing space will run into so that we can paint a picture of how this app solves these problems? What are some of the problems? Tyler: We could probably tape a whole podcast about that question. Jason: Cool. Let's paint a picture here. Tyler: At the core of it all is communication. The problem basically is, how can you communicate with each other things that each other needs to be responsible for, things that need to be done. Some of that can be abstracted into things like, if you're living together there's going to be expenses that are shared, there's going to be responsibilities that are shared, and purchases that are shared, items in their household that you might want to share responsibility for keeping in stock. Those things certainly tend to change a lot from household to household depending on just like what your house is like. In designing Roof, I think we tried to create some tools that were specific enough to target the main needs of people but still general enough to be applicable to as many different types of households as possible. The things that we've targeted are: one, just splitting expenses, so being able to keep track of who's paying for shared things whether it's groceries or split bills like monthly expenses like utilities or… Joao: Rent. Tyler: ...rent, yeah. Joao: That's kind of a holy grail of sharing space. Tyler: Right, the holy grail. We included a shopping list feature to keep things in stock that might be shared. Things like trash bags and groceries. In our household, we use it to track things like olive oil, things that we share for cooking, kitchen supplies, that kind of thing. Also, there is the responsibility aspect that I mentioned. Being able to sort of offer some kind of recognition for saying like, "Oh, Joao, took out the trash. Joao cleaned the dishes. Joao swept the hallway." Things like that, responsibilities that sort of affect everybody, that help everybody, that you want to offer some ability to track, but without getting too into the weeds of being like passive-aggressive like, "Come on. Do this." Joáo: Yeah, its responsibility kind of masked as reminders. So, "You have to take out the trash on Sundays." You program your Roof app to schedule it between your roommates. So, one Sunday it'll be using, "Jason take out the trash." Then you know it's your turn then next week time, "Tyler, take out the trash." You can kind of all share the responsibility. Everyone has a roommate story. I think the roommate story, the core of them, stems from an imbalance of sharing. Maybe one person's accustomed to doing everything and has that sense of responsibility and autonomy but they feel as though people around them aren't keeping up or you're on the opposite end where you feel as there's someone in your house just does everything without you having to say anything, and without you having the opportunity to be involved. All those are communication issues which I think is the backbone but still abstract. In order to make those tangible things like expenses, shopping, and reminders really kind of lay the foundation of the interactions. Rent payment is the thing you sign on the lease on together to be able to share, right, and we really see the opportunity there because no matter how many expenses you share throughout the month, usually they add up to less than your [...] in the month. You can imagine creating a more comfortable splitting environment where at the end of the month, I may buy a handful of groceries, and a new piece of furniture, but when it comes time to pay rents that just means I'll pay a little bit less and Tyler will pay a little bit more. You as landlord [...] full amount, we're even on our end, and all is well. That's kind of our way of operating. Jason: It's interesting because really, there are so many different personality types out there. I don't know if you've ever played around Myers Briggs, but in Myers Briggs, for example, you've got the ISFJ and the ESFJ personality types that are very much like givers, and they're always serving people, doing stuff for other people, but they don't want to ask. They're just arguing, and they're expecting people to reciprocate. Joao: Totally. Jason: They're always let down because nobody gives as much as them. But their mindset is, "If I do this, people should just do it back, they should reciprocate." A lot of other personality types, they're focused on other things, they're not focused on reality, they're focused on ideas or code or whatever you guys might have been focused on. There's this power play, and passive aggressiveness comes out, and challenges come out. It can get ugly. It's simply because somebody didn't communicate with somebody else. I can see how that would help. It probably could be used in families, let's be honest. Joáo: It's not dissimilar from Slack for workplaces. When you have a team that needs to collaborate or to get something done, you're going to have different personality types. Different people are more inclined to step in, and different people are more inclined to observe and take it in and then respond over time. But if you have the right organization of how you interact with one another, you have access to a whole group, you have access to individuals, you have access to services that come through and talk to you via this medium, you're able to actually keep clarity over the whole situation and manage those personalities. Roof, as a tool, is particularly useful for particular groups of people but it's really hard, as you mentioned, to solve the problem holistically. I think it's not terribly efficient to try to solve roommate ship. There exist roommates who already enjoy each other's company, and they aren't in this tug and pull battle. They just really could use a tool to basically make concrete their group and their place of interaction, and then through that means, you keep organized, but you're not necessarily leaning on the app to build your relationships. I don't know we're going to build any relationship that doesn't already exist, but we do have to step in and be a tool for people who are already managing themselves via a spreadsheet or via some other less efficient mechanism right. Jason: Yeah, cool. Yeah, I like it. What else should people listening, know about Roof? Joáo: I'm really proud of our team. I think that's why I love working on the project is I think we've managed to surround ourselves with incredible people. I think people who use Roof see that in the form of how they interact with us, and how we enjoy interacting with them, how we make ourselves available. Our whole team, from me all the way to people working on sales, it's a very small team. I don't state people as there's just a bunch of us, a handful of us with pretty particular responsibilities. You have access to engineering, all the way to design, all the way to decision making, and we want your input. That's how we kind of operate internally with [...] one another. We consider the landlords who use us as investors. They're investing in us by putting their portfolio onto Roof, by extracting value that we have to offer, and by wanting our company as a means to build their own company, that's something I really care about. It sits tangent to the app itself, but I think it's actually a massive part of what you're getting with Roof is the team behind the project. Tyler: I actually just want to second that because I think it's something that, in my opinion, probably sets apart the company that we're building compared to some similar service in the same industry. I tend to be the member of our team who talks to the people who are using Roof the most. If you got an email from Roof, it's probably from me. It's something that we benefit from tremendously, getting to talk straight to people who are using Roof and not just from a feedback perspective like, "Hey, how is this feature working for you? What's something that you have in mind that could be working better?" It feels good to be able to hear the opinions of people have about how the app is working for them and any kind of conversation, really. What I found is that the types of landlords I think who want to invest in Roof tend to be the types of landlords who are very much interested in being a part and building something better than what already exists in the market right now. By nature of that, we're the type of people who are really eager to sort of get involved in the way that we want people to be involved which is, "Hey, like if you have an idea for something that we should be doing, tell us and reach out to us." We maintain a Slack channel with some of the more involved users that we're always trying to invite more people to. We maintain pretty regular e-mail communication with quite a few of our people who are using Roof. I think that benefits us as well as the people who use Roof a lot. Joáo: Jason, I know you know for sure how interconnected a lot of property management org, and financial freedom hustlers are. People love interacting and inspiring one another to take risks, to make the move, to encourage and to have the support, and I think we're an extension of that. We don't sit side by side to the landlords knowing the real estate investor is actually going out and paying attention to the market and purchases, etc., where we feel like we're very much part of that conversation. If you're expanding your portfolio, loop us in. We pay attention to so many blogs, from BiggerPockets to Instagram feeds of individuals who are, not only doing a hell of good work but also inspiring other people around them, in the same boat, maybe a little bit earlier on their careers to keep going. It's very similar, as a small business owner to work with small business owners towards this common goal. Jason: Very cool. Alright, I have feature requests, then, for you guys. I'm just kidding. Maybe these are on your road map, I don't know, but this is how my brain works. I'm going down all these channels. One huge opportunity, it sounds like for guys, is in the property management space. All these property management software tools, they lack this roommate functionality that you've created, this communication platform. Do you see the day that maybe you could somehow connect, or integrate with maybe Rent Manager, it could become sort of a strap on to AppFolio or Buildium or something like this to where if they have some college housing, they could set up the college housing people on this app and they could at least do the accounting. Because some property managers are using a third party tool just to collect rent payment like PayLease or something like that even though they have their own system. I think there might be a potential here for those that are doing college housing right now to use something like this, and they might have hundreds of doors. Joáo: Sure, yeah. Absolutely. I think the question is kind of multifold. I think there are several avenues, an opportunity that could be pursued there. The idea that Roof is a side-by-side tool to PayLease or AppFolio is interesting. You can set up your entire portfolio on Roof, and choose to collect payments directly on Roof or just mark settlements. If you want to actually put in your accounting on Roof, we don't yet have a full suite of graphs, charts, and really making your progressions known to you but not yet—that's another avenue. We could just go on accounting side-by-side through our communication core and really offer the value of other platforms. Or if you want to use the Roof side-by-side to it, you can just use Roof as a ledger, but actually, collect your payments through another software and just do all your communication on Roof. In which case, it's interesting to entertain the idea of proper integration between the two because I think in essence, we are competing and we are going after a different market. I think a lot of those tools, AppFolio in particular, is loaded with features that a lot of smaller rental operators don't need and it just overcomplicates the experience instead of ensuring it has a richer accounting feature. But oftentimes, too rich. It just gets in the way of the one report that we need, or the one piece of information that you actually come to over and over again. Jason: It's too cost prohibitive for the smaller investor. Joáo: Too cost prohibitive. Absolutely. I'm unsure if a priority of ours would be to integrate. I think we would rather compete, to be honest, just because I think we see our market and our users as really valuing Roof as a strong competitor to those. I think it's a massive market. As you said, property management investors, property investors, come in all types, they all have different motivations. But I think the core of what you're getting at is, how can we extract the juicy features from our competitors and make them a part of the Roof in the most elegant way possible, and that's something that we're incredibly in tune with, "How our competitors' moving? What people are using?" Also, I don't think we're competitor-driven, I think we're customer-driven 100%. I'd rather spend my time talking to people who are using our app and appreciating the core of the features. We want to stay [...] with what we believe to be true about problem-solving and then say, "Yes, right. Cool. What kind of financial reports do you need? What kind of integration [...] do you need?" Then working those into the app in an elegant way. I think its value is to actually just build a feature and just throw it in another tab and just grow your tabs of different things you offer. Everything has to play with one another really well so that you actually create an experience that anyone can come into. From a person with one house and a couple of tenants to someone with 50 homes and hundreds of tenants and make the most of the platform. I'm more interested in that side of things—the post-integration bit. Jason: Right. Well, if you're open, in the future, I think there's a whole target audience that could use this that have lots of college housing clients. Rent Manager has an open API, Buildium has been doing integrations with Property Meld and Happy Inspector and others, and so I think there's a possibility there. AppFolio doesn't generally play nice with others. Usually, some people are finding workarounds, but they're still using third-party tools to do a lot of things. This is how my brain works are is, I would imagine one of the biggest challenges that roommates have is they lose a roommate. I don't know if this is some sort of future sort of idea, but I imagine this comes up a lot. They lose a roommate, they got to figure out how to pay rent, they need to find a roommate, and they want to make sure that they get the right fit. I don't know if this is something that you guys plan to tackle or this is a problem that Roof helps with it at all. Joáo: Yeah. I'll let Tyler explain, but I just want to say that, we sit and throw around ideas every single night. The most frustrating piece is just sitting on just like ledgers of great ideas. We're like, "We'll get to those. We have to do this thing that's in our face right now." Jason: How do you decide what comes first? How do you make the decision? Is it the noisiest customers or your biggest customers? As a software company, how do you decide which features to focus on, and which ones to throw away? Joao: It's a great question. It's the hardest part of the job, right, of making sure everyone's on the same page and has a shared belief of the direction we're going in. Oftentimes, I find that short-term goals can make the most sense when everyone sees with the opportunity that exists one, two, three years on the line. They still have to sit down and execute for three months at a time in particular feature set or particular go-to-market strategy or something like that, keeping these chunks of time open for discussion. Then, once everyone feels good that the product, that the users, marketing and the sales align, to basically, ink it all, sit down, get to work, knock it out and then go through your evaluation phase and then repeat the process. It seems like the most productive way to go about it. Obviously, I think as your cash flow increases, you're able to grow your company then you can kind of bring more heads, more brains out of the team and start to see if you can scale more horizontally. For the time being, I personally love working on a small team where we each kind of know each other intimately, know how we work and share [...]. It makes the decision making a little scarier because you have to pick a couple of things and do them, but you do them so well, I think. Whatever you choose to spend your time on, you just got to do the hell out of it and really believe that is the right way to go and then be truthful with yourself along the way if you need a correction. Tyler: Speaking to the scope of how user feedback, and what some of our customers are interested in, speaking of how that fits into the picture of what do we build next, there's certainly not any kind of rule for that. In fact, a lot of times, the two are sort of in odds with each other; the sort of things people would like to see us build versus the things we decide to build. Those are really tough decisions to make, especially when you have to make a decision and then respond to somebody in the email who's saying, "I love your app. I can't wait for you to build this." Then I got to come in and say, "Well, actually, it's going to be a couple of months before we can do that." A great example of that actually is right now, for the last couple of months, Joao and I have been invested in working on the new iOS and Android apps that we'll be shipping soon. Add the expense of otherwise, started addressing some urgent feature there's a couple of bugs that we'd love to be fixing in the current apps. Every single time something is brought to our attention where it's like, "Hey, this would be really helpful to have right now." We start to balance and say, "Okay. Well, do we take a couple of days away from this other project we're working on to do this thing that will help now? Or do we just buckle down and continue to invest time in something that's going to ultimately be an investment, and how well we'll be able to scale in the future?" The big reason that we're rebuilding the apps in the first place, from a tech perspective, the new stack that we'll be using to maintain those new apps will be a lot easier to maintain and so, adding a feature six months from now will take a lot of less effort than it would have taken now or a couple of months ago just because of how we're rebuilding things. The short answer is that it's really tough. Sometimes, one of the most frustrating things to deal with is having to tell people, "While you're suggesting is great, and I wish I can give you that. We've got to make a tough decision and focus on something else right now. Jason: I think every entrepreneur listening gets that. We all have situations in which we have our vision as an entrepreneur or as a business owner of what we want to do and accomplish, and then we have what our target audience is really screaming and begging for that we want to do. Every property manager probably has some sort of process they want to change or something they want to improve or something they're dealing with. I think that's the thing to realize is that the software that you're developing or the business that you're building, if you're a property manager that's listing, anything, it's always a living, breathing thing, it's never done. Just like, as human beings, we're never done. We're all still in the oven, so to speak. There's always going to be bugs, there's always going to be tweaks, there's always going to be changes—that's just the nature of software. You release new features, there's going to be little things, little nuances, and little things to change. Over time, you build something that just gets better and sharper. Then sometimes you have to completely rebuild something. You're like, "Okay. It'll be better to start over and do this really well now that we've learned so much than to keep building on a scaffolding that was not as strong." That's just how it works. I think our own main program, our seed program, we're on our third total revamp that we've done. I already have a whole list of old stuff I want to change, and add, and do—that's just how my brain works. Joáo: I think what's really important though is the fact that you've learned over time. It's not about always questioning, "Are you doing the right thing?" To me, it's all about knowing you are doing the right thing. If we make a choice to build something, "Let's build it. Let's ship it." There's going to be corners that need tying up in a good sense but, "Let's ship it. Let's learn from it. Let's move forward. Let's put weight on it and then let's see how far it can go until it stretches. Let's let it stretch." Let us not be afraid to let it stretch and feel comfortable like, "Hey, the work we did can hold that weight." But at the same time, we have to be evaluating, "Alright. Cool." If we then want to add more people or scale our transactions a hundredfold, "Will the stretch break?" At that point, you have to make a decision, "Yes. Let's go and do the remodel." I think the analogy for a lot of real estate investors is the remodel where maybe you have a house and you have a really janky kitchen. The whole house is beautiful, but something about the kitchen is off. People living in the house, they know that they would rather have a nicer kitchen that's going to take a long time. Meanwhile, you have a sink in the bathroom that's a little loose, and you have just a tweak off in the garden or something. The tenant will be like, "I get it. Yeah, you need to fix the kitchen. Spend time there. I'll deal with the sink and the little [...]." Jason: Meanwhile, I need a kitchen. Joáo: Yeah. A big thing for us is our Android app currently is running our web app on mobile, so it works. You can do everything you need, but the experience, the actual motion, the feel of it doesn't compare to what we built nearly iOS. We have a ton of people on Android who's like, "Oh, I could use a new Roof experience in Android." Meanwhile, a lot of people already in iOS or on the web are kind of hoping at more sophisticated problems. But we're like, "Look, by building a native Android app, we can also be able to offer this experience to a ton more people." Actually, [...] of doing that, we're now able to build for iPad, for desktop, new tablets, etc. It's exciting. Jason: Yeah, cool. I think it's exciting to hear what you guys are doing. I think you've done something really unique in the roommate space. It sounds like to kind of solve some problems. You've probably, solved a lot of passive-aggressive issues, and some [...] properties and created a lot more peace out there. It really sounds like this is software that creates a peaceful environment for all parties involved, including the landlords. To wrap this up, how can people find out more about Roof, and how can we get in touch? Joáo: Our website is roof.io. That provides an overview of the features that we offer, the different sides of it, you can read about how roommates use Roof, how landlords can use Roof. There's this little button that says 'Extra' which you click on, and we try to provide a lot of documentation to our accompany, it directs to the website also. You can go in there and find some more detailed information like FAQ and some guides for how to get started as a roommate or as a landlord or a renter. There's a lot of information on there. We also use Twitter to put out some updates as well as Instagram. We try to stay pretty up-to-date with that. There's also our Facebook page. We'll put some links to those wherever Jason thinks the best place to put some links. Reach out to us at team@roof.io—email address. Get directly in touch with us. We'll schedule a phone call with you, see what's up, see what's on your mind, see if Roof is a right fit for you. We're open to having a pretty open discussion. We've doubled a lot of users at this point, so we know kind of the ones that's really just a [...] value of what we offer them and those who are still in the edge of being the perfect fit for them. We'd be happy to kind of walk you through and making the right choice for you. Lastly, it cost $2 a transaction to use Roof. You can assume that yourself as a landlord or you can pass it on to your tenants, in which in case, it'd be free for you. If you do choose to assume, whenever your tenants come to pay, we give a little shout out for you in the app saying, "Your landlord is covering it for you. They're dope." But if you want $20 of transaction fees for free, use a code 3875 DoorGrow, it's a proprietary code just for the show, just for the audience here. You can get started, put some tenants there, try it out for a lease, you won't pay or tenants won't pay for about a year of that and see if it's right for you. Jason: The code one more time. Joáo: Code is 3875 DoorGrow. Jason: Okay, thanks for that. Those listening, property managers, that [...] college housing or deal with shared housing situations, I'd be be curious to get their feedback and see how it works for them. That'd be pretty cool. I appreciate you guys coming on the show. Have you guys thought of starting a shared housing property owners' community? Like a Facebook group or something. It sounds like you've got this going in your Slack channel. Tyler: Speaking of Slack Channel, that would be another way to get in touch with us. Just scroll down to the bottom of the landlord's page on the website, you can request to join there. Creating a community like that, it's not something that I think we have plans for. Jason: It's cool when you get them together, man. We've got our DoorGrow Club Facebook group, and you get these people together, and they start sharing ideas, helping each other, and the momentum is just awesome. I haven't heard of anything in the shared housing sort of space, this idea of having a property that is shared and this type of owners. College housing or whatever it might be, a cool little community out there, I guess. Anyway, check these guys out. Get into their Slack channel. Go to roof.io. I appreciate you guys coming on the show and excited to see what you guys do over the next few years here. Joáo: Thanks, Jason. Thank you for having us. It was a lot of fun. Jason: Alright. For those of you who are watching, make sure you get into our Facebook group, our community, which is doorgrowclub.com. You can get to that, it will redirect. If you are watching this on YouTube, make sure you like and subscribe so that you get these videos. We release the videos on YouTube before we release them to iTunes. If you're listening in iTunes, make sure you go to our YouTube channel, it's youtube.com/doorgrow, and click the red subscribe button there. Click the subscribe button and get subscribe and start getting notifications usually on your browser when we release or drop new videos. You can get this information and see some of these people instead of just listening. Until next time everybody. To our mutual growth. I hope you have a fantastic day and week. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Do you own single-family properties, but rent them out? Are you tired of dealing with tenants? Incompetent contractors? Why do-it-yourself (DIY)? Why waste your time? About 70% of owners self-manage their properties. You can't and shouldn't do it all. Help is available. Today, I am talking to Dana Dunford of Hemlane, an all-in-one rental property management solution. After being encouraged by family and friends, Dana decided to do real estate investing on the side while working at Apple. She tried self-managing her properties, only to discover how difficult that can be - even tougher than calf dressing! You'll Learn... [02:50] Moving from self-management to hybrid solution involving experts in real estate/property management to streamline and mitigate risks. [04:15] Property Management and Technology: Taking a different approach to build communities of agents, owners, and managers to work together. [07:50] Potential for property management industry: Buying real estate is easy; property management is much more difficult, but determines the success of your investment. [10:27] Property managers have to do everything and need to be Jack-or-Jill of all trades (maintenance, lawyer, therapist, sales, marketing, etc.). [10:56] Dana's driven toward challenge; something new happens every day in property management and risk needs to be mitigated. [11:27] Subject matter experts should provide best practice, place, and process; there's only so much technology and robots can do. [13:05] Entrepreneurs/Gluttons for Punishment: Highly adaptable and enjoy challenges. [14:56] Turnkey: When something goes wrong, property manager gets blamed. [15:47] Hemlane: Flexible and transparent property management platform that helps property managers solve problems. [19:55] Hemlane's Ideal Prospect: Under 200 units and wants to grow portfolio/clientele. [22:36] Hemlane offers automation of administrative tasks and competitive advantage by building relationships and services over time. [27:10] Real estate investors find out about Hemlane on social media and blogs. [31:57] Are you trained and qualified, or just pretending to be a property manager? [35:15] FAQs from Property Managers: How can I communicate with owners? Will Hemlane take my clients? How do I know if I need help? [41:07] People aren't buying property management; but safety, certainty, and trust. [48:40] What is a hemlane? House Differentiation: Hem is house in Swedish; lane is a path that divides you from others. Tweetables Property management is challenging; something new happens every day. Whether you love or hate them, industry isn't ready for robots to show properties. Turnkey is a terrible word; if something goes wrong, the property manager is blamed. People aren't buying property management. They want safety, certainty, and trust. Resources Hemlane Dana Dunford's Email Dana Dunford on LinkedIn Hemlane on Software Advice Hemlane on Capterra Hemlane on GetApp Apple Nest The Iceberg Report Industrial Calf Dressing - California Rodeo Salinas Tim Ferriss Buildium AppFolio Zillow Russell Brunson's Value Ladder DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, I'm hanging out here with Dana Dunford of Hemlane. Dana, welcome to the show. Dana: Great. Thanks so much, Jason, for having me. Jason: I'm really excited to have you here. You have such a bright personality. I was really, I guess, curious with people. I was really biting my tongue, resisting just getting into figuring you out, and asking you questions. It was always a challenge for me. Now, I can do it. Let's get into this. Dana, why don't you share with everybody a little bit of background on you and who you are. Then, let's transition into getting into how Hemlane came to be. Dana: My background, by accident, I actually ended up at Silicon Valley. I'm just through studying here for university. My background was actually always been on technology and I've always been fascinated with that. I actually got into real estate and looking at real estate investing coming through two different people. One was my brother-in-law, who was investing in real estate and saying, "Dana, you need to get into investing as well. Do that on the side." I was working at Apple at that time doing new product introductions. Then, the second was actually who my co-founder is today, Frank, who has rental properties across the US. I haven't been on the property manager's side until we started self-managing. We ended up self-managing our properties remotely and trying to figure out how to make that work. Essentially, starting with self-management and then actually moved to a more hybrid model that worked out really well, where we were working with local managers and local real estate agents to help us with the management while we were still controlling the financials, the rent, and still be involved in it. So, a little bit of a hybrid solution which today I don't see actually in the market. It's either full service or do-it-yourself. I think do-it-yourself is really a horrible one to take because then every single person, all 43 million renter households, with 20 million people are looking for ways to essentially streamline and mitigate risks and all of that. Having property managers and experts in the industry really makes a ton of sense. That's what brought me to a more of a hybrid model. I left Apple then and went to business school at Harvard. After that, came back to Silicon Valley, was working at a company called Nest which is home technology, got me more excited about real estate technology. They were actually acquired by Google and I realized I want to actually start my own thing. Property management is one of those incredible industries where technology to date, there's a lot of players out there, a ton in the property management software space—quite frankly too many of them—but taking that model and saying how do we do it in a different approach, think about it differently, and really build communities of managers, communities of agents, communities of owners to work together because 70% of the owners, as you know, Jason—I think actually you were the first person I learned that from—self-manage, so how do you connect those 70% to get some sort of help? Right at the beginning, they're going to say, "I don't need help," but sure enough they call and they're like, "I had a nightmare of a tenant. I hate this. They're selling my portfolio," or, "I need some help." Really helping them and being there at the right time—a lot of times that right time for them—is getting involved with them even when they're self-managing. Jason: Yeah. I got the 70% stat from the Iceberg report which says, "On a single family residential, about 30% are professionally managed." I need to point out in your bio because this is the only bio I've ever seen. It says that you're an avid equestrian, paraglider, and skier. She is the first woman to win a calf-dressing championship belt buckle at the California rodeo. Are you kind of a cowgirl, then? Dana: Yeah, I did. I grew up in a farm in Salinas, California. We had horses, some cows and stuff in the backyard that really did teach me a lot of hard work. I did enter and I was the only woman. I don't why women don't enter these events. Salinas has the largest rodeo, the largest across the entire nation, largest prize pool of money, [...] and stuff they give you. I entered something called calf dressing. Actually, the huge advantage being a woman because you have to dress a cow in these Wrangler jeans. What's fantastic about it is you actually have to be able to get under the cow so you have to be small. These big burly farmer guys trying to do it and I came in with a team of two other guys. It's three people on a team and then me. I think there's a huge advantage to being small and just being able to dress it really quickly while they're holding down the cow. Anyway, we got a huge massive belt buckle, the same one that the pro bull riders win at the rodeo, which is pretty cool. Jason: This is so unrelated. This just fascinates me. You're actually putting pants on a calf, that's what's this is? Dana: Yes, that's the event. It has the same credibility as the pro bull riders that win the top belt buckle. You get the same belt buckle. It's like the best hack to getting a professional rodeo belt buckle. Jason: This is funny but it reminds me of listening to some of Tim Ferriss' stories where he just figured out how he could win some sort of a competition that was just random so that he could be a world champion. Very cool. You mentioned the property management industry and something about it got you excited which either says you're crazy or you see something maybe similar to me. What potential do you see the industry is having? In the US, I feel like it's underperforming in its potential. People just don't see it, awareness is low, perception is low. What's your perception of what the potential is for the property management industry as a whole? Dana: I think it's two things. It falls into two buckets of the potential. The first one really has to do with real estate investing in general. This happened to me when I was at Apple. Most people when you ask them, "How did you get into real estate investing?" it's usually, "Oh, someone told me. I have friend who is doing it and doing it successfully." All of these companies out there where they have these employees who have great savings and could be allocating money into real estate, they're literally going into stocks, bonds, and other things. It's sad. The biggest thing with property management was that's a biggest pain point. When I look at buying properties here in San Francisco, it didn't make sense. The numbers just didn't make sense for investment at that time. Maybe things changed. Some people want the appreciation gain that they'll invest in San Francisco, but it's really investing out of state. That's the biggest thing is property management. I quite frankly think buying the property is the easy part of it. You put the numbers on spreadsheets, you're not emotional, you go and you purchase a property. There's not too much rocket science to that part. Where it really comes down to the success of your investment is in the property management. It's the most difficult part to be in and it's the one that you're stuck with for 20-25 years. Buying the property, it takes you maybe a year, depending on how long you're looking. Some people buy within their first month. The property management in actually being able to make sure you have that stable, steady, cash flow, is the most difficult part of it. There's no focus on it, I think, because it's the most difficult that people push it off. One of my biggest frustrations with property management is people thinking like, "Oh, maintenance is going to be so easy." That kind of stuff is really difficult to do. I always think of property managers as Jacks of all trades. They have to be good sales people. They have to be good at marketing. They have to be a lawyer because they have to know these lease contracts. They have to be a maintenance person because they have to know how to troubleshoot, push back on service professionals, and understand, "Am I getting screwed over or not?" They have to be a therapist because tenants get emotional because it's their home. One of the things I've always been driven towards this challenge, if something's not challenging and they get easy, I usually just leave the job. It's just boring. Then it's just a nine-to-five. I think in property management it's not that. Something new happens every single day and you're constantly saying, "How do I take that and mitigate that risk?" That's really where I do think that there's just so much value to it. There's, quite frankly, not a lot of focus on it. That's where, Jason, this show's incredible because you actually bringing those people to talk about how do you mitigate that risk, how do you set it up for success, et cetera. I believe it has to be a subject matter expert that do it. There are certain things that technology can do to just say here's the best practice in place and process. Then, you also have to have the people component because you still have to talk to people. You still need someone physically there. The worst thing, I think, is when they talk about these robots showing the properties and stuff. Some people love it. I don't think the industry is there yet, go and show some of these properties. I don't think the industry is quite there for some of these stuff. That's just my own personal opinion from dealing with them, being hands on, showing properties, and doing all of these stuff. Inspections, move ins, move outs, maintenance coordination. It still needs that human component and it's much better to say, "Here are the subject matter experts that do it," versus every single person trying to do it. As you know, that happens with single family homes but still the majority doing the self-management themselves. Jason: Yes. I love what you said. Buying is easy, managing the property, hard. It's really simple. That's so true. When you get into real estate investing, they're hoping that they've got some turnkey magical easy thing, money is just going to be flowing in, and then they have to manage the property. That reality sets in. I think that's good pointing it out. Property management is the most difficult part. The other thing you pointed out is that property managers, these entrepreneurs are highly adaptable creatures. You call them Jacks of all trades or Jills of all trades. They're highly adaptable creatures as entrepreneurs. I think that's why I get excited about them because they're my type of people. What's interesting is some people maybe call entrepreneurs gluttons for punishment, but I think we love challenges. Just like I've said in the intro, we love unique challenges. I think that really we would be bored without challenges. We would [...] entrepreneurs. We want to be tested. We want to have some challenges to work on. I think the trick is finding the challenges we enjoy working on versus the ones that are kind of thrown into us that we don't want to be dealing with. There's a difference but I love that as well. I think the industry as a whole has a massive potential. You mentioned, the first one is real estate investing, that they need property management. What was the second thing? Dana: The second one, the challenges associated with it is just property management in general is such an afterthought of it. The first is real estate investing and thinking of it as stocks and bonds where you can purchase a property anywhere. But I tell people you shouldn't purchase in your backyard just so you can self manage it. You should be looking elsewhere. It's not like I say, "Okay, my neighbor rent this small little company and that's the only one I can do best in." When I'm looking at stocks, I'm like, "What stocks out there across the world should I invest in that's going to give me what I think is best return, diversification, and things like that?" It's the same with property management. The first is just that investing outside the area, but then the second is property management like you said. I think turnkey is actually a horrible word for that because when people say turnkey, it makes you think you don't have to do anything at all. It's going to be easy. The problem is that when something goes wrong, the property manager is first to get blamed. The first to get blamed. They actually don't even get credit because the word turnkey makes you think, "Oh, I'm going to get this casual." The turnkey companies put it like, "Hey, you're going to get this straight number, this is what you're going to get, and there aren't going to be any problems." What happens is you think you're going to be at the top of that and everything is going to go right. When something goes wrong, it's the property manager who gets blamed which we know there are women, tenants, out there, a bunch of different things. Those challenges and mitigating those are really that second component of it. Jason: Okay. Now, let's get into Hemlane a little bit here. Property management business owners have a lot of different pain points, challenges, and problems. There's a lot of pain points and challenges that owners, tenants, and everybody are dealing with. Businesses only exists, technically, to solve a problem. If a business exists that is not solving a problem, then it's just stealing money. Let's get into the problem that Hemlane helps solve. Tell us about the problem. I think this will help people transition into helping them understand Hemlane and what you guys do. Dana: Hemlane is a flexible and transparent property management platform. What I mean by platform is that we have software. Software, if you think of Buildium or AppFolio but for the smaller guy, not for 500+ units. It's got the software built into it where it automates things and sends reminders on what you need to do next, and it walks you through a risk-mitigated process. For example, people say, "Why don't you integrate PayPal? Why can't I pay with PayPal on Hemlane?" That's not a good process because tenants can dispute that. We're not going to flip that in there. Building the best practices in place, it's got the software. The second component of it is really saying that, "Hey, most of our clients are people who own rental properties and they don't locally." What do they want help with? A lot of them are trying to self-manage or they're illegally using handymen to show the property and trying to haphazardly put together a process which we see a lot of the market doing especially the tail end of it. They usually do it with these B-class properties where it's not that they're having to deal with the Section 8 or much lower income, but they're saying, "Oh, I can probably manage this remotely myself." We actually come in and say, "No, if you want someone to show your property, they have to be licensed here, or managers we worked within that area, or real estate agents. They can show your property for you." That's why we call it a platform because we're not a brokerage. We're not trying to take clients from anyone. We're just looking to connect to them. There's basically two packages. Property managers and real estate agents use our software-only package because they don't really need us help connect them or do maintenance coordination. Owners will use the upgraded package, so owners of rental properties, and they'll say, "Hey, I still want to control my rent, have rent go to me but I want to pay someone a full leasing fee for them to do the leasing." Whatever it is, we don't get involved in that price negotiation. We just set them up with someone local who can provide those services for them. We have partnered with property managers and real estate agents across the nation based on where portfolios are or where the needs are. We're in all 50 states but our actual agents and managers are only in some of the major cities. We focus on certain cities. Then, what happens is when we have a real estate investor come to us, whether they purchased, they're in some group, whether they just come to us and find us online, we say, "Great. Here are the managers in the area, get on a call with them, and see what you want them to do. Whatever you want them to do, they'll just charge you for their services in the system." It is in full service. Sometimes it does get to full service. Sometimes they just ask the manager to take over their account in our systems. It downgrades to the software-only package and then managers charges them a whole management fee. A lot of our owners are more in that category of, "Hey, we used to do it ourselves and we're looking for something else." They really fall into that do-it-yourself, that 70% category, and we're trying to push them into saying, "Hey, there are other things out there that are much more efficient than you trying to spend your time on doing your own property management." Jason: Let's make this super clear. For those that are listening, that have property management businesses, they're property management entrepreneurs, who's your ideal prospect when it comes to them? Help them self-identify if somebody that should be reaching out to Hemlane. Dana: Yeah. Great question. From that perspective, it's typically someone who has under 200 units, they're looking to grow their portfolio, and they're also open to doing a combination of multiple things for clients to expand their clientele. What I mean by expand their clientele is saying, "Hey, I'm going to offer a full service is one option and I'm going to offer some unbundled service as well, say, listing only, maintenance only, whatever it is." When a customer comes to you, it's not saying, "I charged 10% on this. You don't want that, don't work with me." It's saying, "Hey, what do you want? What do you want me to do? Here's what I'll do. Here's what our contract says." Then, you can do everything yourself. They can jump on our platform. They don't even have to be using our software to actually get access to owners. They can create an agent manager profile for free. If we do connect them with people, we do have requirements and property management questions that we ask them to make sure that they're qualified, reference checks, things like that. Usually, it's for the smaller manager that doesn't have enough referrals yet, who's just starting out, saying, "How do I get an advantage in my market? I'm new, I'm a hustler, kind of crazy, in that sense of doing property management. I'm working around the clock, I know myself, but I'm just right now starting to grow my portfolio." In property management, there's only two ways to grow your portfolio. Starve yourself, do it slowly, and go door by door, or acquire brokerage. I have a tons of friends who just acquire property management brokerages. They just run on them, but they have capital. A lot of people don't have that capital. So, if you don't and you're going door-to-door because your parents didn't hand down their property management business to you—doesn't happen a lot of the time—if you only have 10 doors and you're saying, "How do I get to 20?" working and partnering with companies like Hemlane makes a ton of sense to get you out there, your name out there, more referrals, et cetera. Jason: Love it. I know that we have quite a few that are under 200 doors who are listening. The fact that this could help them generate some more leads creates some more relationships and drum up some more businesses, I think is enticing. Let's focus just on the growth aspect. How does Hemlane help somebody, say they're stuck in that first sand trap, they've got 50 or 60 units under management, they're solopreneur, or maybe they just finally broken past and they wanted to get into that next level, which is that 200–400 door range I called the second sandtrap. How is Hemlane going to help them build up their book of business? Dana: There's two things. One is automation and stuff like that. Anything technology can do better that is administrative, we take off of you. Everything from a tenant just said that I'm interested in a showing and just reached out to you on Zillow, you shouldn't be manually responding to that. You should already have your calendar. You should already have your qualifications of what minimums they have, criteria to qualify. That showing calendar needs to be sent right out to them at that second. They can respond. If they don't, you can give them a personalized call. Everything from automation, so you're not focused on that and you're focused on sales and marketing of your property management business, which is the most important thing to grow at. That's number one. Number two is saying, why don't you give yourself a competitive advantage against everyone else by saying, "Hey, you know what? Everyone else has this 10% model." A lot of times these people who've been self-managing and they are saying, "Hey, I want a property manager," taking them from going to 0%–10% takes a while over time for them to do that, because they have to build trust in you, they've never worked with you. Starting them and saying, "Hey, let me just do your leasing for you. Let me just do your leasing. You can manage everything else on Hemlane." The next year, coming back and saying, "Hey, do you want me to take over this from you as well?" Letting them ease into it, it's like when you give a price. A lot of companies do 30 days free or you get those [...] and open door things. They're like, two-for-one. You try things at a low barrier to entry. Then, you're liking it, you're hooked, and you're connected to this person. Then you're like, "Hey, I trust this person. Now they can have more of my business." I think a lot of it is like, that doesn't happen today in the industry. The industry is just saying, "It's all or none." You're getting the same price quote from every property manager and you don't want to cut your prices. You don't want to say, "I'll give you everything at a lower price." You don't want a discount because then, there's quality problems there. Or when you say, "Hey, maybe I'll just takeover this little part from you." [...] with that and then, that's your biggest pain point. "Let me solve that. Now, let me solve your other ones." From that perspective, Hemlane can really help you set that up to provide your clients, new clients, and clients across the nation who may just be even looking in your area. With some sort of competitive advantage that you have, when you're trying to get new doors until you get more of them quickly, and then build those relationships and build that deal value on customer size, over time. Jason: Hemlane would also help expose this small business to investors in other markets and other areas? Dana: Yeah. They usually come to us. The investor will come to us and say, "Hey, I'm interested in this plus this." Usually, investors will come just across the nation and say, "Hey, I'm in Kansas City and I want to put my properties on Hemlane." We go, "Great! Sign-up and try us for free." Then we say, "What do you need?" They're like, "Oh, I need some advertising tools." "Great! We can provide that to you. Do you need someone to show your properties?" "No, I don't think I do." "Okay, when's your next turnover?" "In two months." "Great. We'll follow up then. Do you need someone to show you your property?" "Yeah. Actually my husband and I are going to Europe, things changed." "Great. Here's someone who can help with your leasing." From that perspective, it's capturing people at the right time because timing is everything. If you can just get your foot in the door, it makes a lot of sense. For us, because we're nationwide, we're a platform, people come in. Where our managers and agents are is where we focus on upselling them, connecting them with local professionals. Jason: Property management listings that maybe haven't heard of Hemlane, they were probably naturally inquiring or wondering how are these investors find out about Hemlane? Dana: There's a ton of places that they find out about us. The biggest ones that we actually find are actually in social media. Most of these real estate investors, I think, we have one of the best algorithms in place from this person we use from marketing. It is really social because a lot of them aren't searching for property management software. They just don't search for that. They don't search for [...] software. A lot of it is on social. Whatever algorithms is being used is working for that. That's been huge for us. For example in the US, the top rated on Software Advice, if you look at their top products, you'll see us at the top for software solutions. They'll find us on Software Advice. They'll find us on Capterra. They'll find us on GetApp. The other thing is blogs and content. I write a ton of content on like, "Why is Venmo the worst way to collect rent?" "What do you need that's concrete in your lease?" A lot of times, when they're searching for something, they're not searching for a software or a manager. They're saying, "I have a problem and I need it fixed." They're searching that term. You can give them the solution in a blog post and say, "Here's some ways to get connected locally with folks in your area who do property management." A lot of times, I just set them up for a coffee. I just say, "Hey, so and so meet so and so for a coffee. I know you're self-managing, but it would be a great way for you guys just to connect locally in your city in case things change, in case your mind changes." That's a great way to start building those relationships without being too salesy. Those people come back to you and they do remember you, especially if you made that impression and you meet them for a quick coffee. Jason: You guys are pulling in traffic from Capterra, GetApp software sites, blogging all these. You got traffic coming in. For the property manager, what is the buy-in or what's the requirement for them to start working with you? Financially, what does this typically cost for them to get onboard? How much work does this take? What's your vetting process? How can those listing self-qualify to become part of the Hemlane network? Dana: Great question. In every area, we actually personally get on a call with you to understand you because if we're going to refer you out, we actually think of you more as a partner versus you created a profile. If we are going to refer you out, you actually do need to do some interviews with our team knowing who you are, asking questions, prequalifying. The minimum we've taken is someone who's done 10 doors. As long as you have 10 doors, even if they're your own doors or something like that and you're just starting your own property management, we need, as a prerequisite, that you have some experience [...] seen in property management because we're not [...] to that. Then, we ask you questions of what would you do in this situation, understanding how well do you really know property management in leasing and complex situations. We'll walk through those situations with you. The third and final thing is reference checks. We do some reference checks on you. There's two things in each area. The first is if you're using our software already, we obviously would refer people to you first before we refer it to someone who's not using our software because we don't take a cut. We don't believe in taking cuts of however how much you make so when you charge an owner for something, we don't take a cut of that. You get 100% of it. That's really important to us because we never want anyone to think, "Hey, we're working with this person because they give us 20% of their income." We don't care. That's yours. We make our money off of our software and our platform. The connections help make our software much more differentiated than others. We don't take a cut of anything that you made. That's really important to note. You build your own business, we build ours, we have the tools to help you with that. If you are using our software, we'll put you higher range assuming you fit our qualifications. Then, someone who's not using our software but just free on our program that just says, "Hey, I'm in this region." In a lot of cities, we don't have anyone, any partner in that city. There's no one using our software that's good enough, that's qualified. Even if you're not using our software, we'll still refer you out just because we want to make sure those people are happy. That's the first things with it. What's even more important to ask to keep the business and keep traction going is asking reviews. When we refer owners out to you, we actually ask them for their opinions on you after working with you the first time. You might have done something really small for them by just saying, "Hey, let me do an annual inspection and drop by your property, you haven't been there," or we ask the owner, "How was it? What reports did they give you? This and that," because we want to make sure that you are trained and qualified. There's a ton of people out there pretending to be property managers who's like, "Gosh, if I have my property in their hands, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen." We found it's quality not quantity. It's the quality of the individuals we work with. In each city, we don't need 500 managers on our platform. "We have everyone on here." All we need is the top. The people who say they pick up their calls, they respond to emails, you don't need three weeks to respond to an owner, and they're fair with the owners. They set these owners up or the owners like, "Thank goodness I have this person on my team." They went in and did an annual inspection and saw leashes hanging and dog holes, but they're not supposed to have pets in the place. That takes us [...]. That's really where I do think the value comes in. It's really asking for reviews on that as well. You can even set it up if you use our maintenance coordination where you get reviews on how you did on maintenance coordination, how well your service professionals did. "I think, Dana's really big there," to understand how are people doing and performing because you can't do everything yourself. For us, it's the same thing of how are our local agents performing. Sometimes we have to kick people off and say, "You know what? They're not exactly who we want our reputation to be surrounded with." That's why it's just important if you don't have any leasing or management experience, you do need to go out and get some. We won't take someone who's a newbie and try to train them via meetings. Jason: This sounds like something ideal for probably most of our clients to get onboard with. If nothing else, you have that listing and be one of the boots-on-the-ground partners that you guys have in your database. Dana: Yeah. We would love for our team to interview you, have a call with you, and stuff like that. Like I said, it doesn't take too much time and adds free value. We don't ask you for marketing dollars. We have those inbound coming in already for our marketing. From that perspective, we'll just work directly with you and we won't take a cut. From our perspective, we're not trying to make money off of you, we're just trying to create a much more valuable community. Jason: We probably should have started the show saying, "If you're a good property manager, Dana's going to send you leads. She's just going to send you some free business and you don't have to pay for it," and we probably could have just ended it right there and give in a link, and you probably would have gotten a few phone calls. Dana: That sounds good, yup. Jason: Okay, cool. What else should those listening know about Hemlane that we haven't covered already? What are some of the most common questions that you're feeling may be from the property management side? Dana: On the property management side, it's really interesting. One of the things that we get most often image is with owners. When people come to us with owners of, "Hey, I've got too much going on, I can't do it all, I'm stressed, I'm working around the clock, I can't grow my doors, these owners are upset, blah, blah, blah…" One of the biggest things that I see is communication. When things go wrong, it's usually because the owner wants to have communication and we see it on our side. When owners come to us, we say, "Why are you signing up for Hemlane?" Because I want some transparency in communication and for property managers to know that we have it in the solution wherein you can add your owners and decide what they get an access to. But you can also decide they get access to all of it but they don't get notifications. Once the request is opened, they don't get notifications on that but they just get a summary email once a week, once a month, depending on what you have set up. I think from the perspective of Hemlane, one of the things that we see as really valuable and the solution is having that communication. You're not having to field 500 calls from owners everyday saying, "How many leads did I get today? How many showings did you do for my property this week?" All of that is in the system for your owner to just view and look at, and having that data and having that transparency to them it's like, "Wow, you're on top of what you're doing," and that makes them feel good. When they see an email it's like, "We got 20 leads and 10 of them showed up for showings, and three of them completed an application," and they go, "Okay, things are moving along." So even if your day is back-to-back, you're running around and you got some fire drill with plumbers, some tenants who wants to move out tomorrow, and all these other stuff going on, at least that technology is working for you. It's one of the biggest things that we see that is really valuable on the software side. Other questions that we get from property managers is, "Well, what about if you're going to take clients, and clients are just going to use you and not use me, and this and that?" We've never seen that happen. If you're a good property manager which are the ones on our platform, that doesn't happen. There are two types of owners. There is that 30% in the single family homes than Jason is talking about, who say, "I'm handing you the keys, I don't want to hear about the property, take it and go with it," and it changes based on different life events, especially when people have kids for some reason, that's when they're like, "Please take my properties now. I've got something worse than properties, I've got children. I've got something worse than properties, I can't deal with them." There's these life events that happen that can signal, "Maybe I should check in with them and see if they want more full service." For us, what we find is people really fall into different categories and they spiral into that. There are people who would say, "Take everything, I'm willing to pay for it, do everything for me, and send me my owner distribution." There are other people in the system who want to be so hands on that quite frankly trying to do full service management with them is a nightmare. Jason, I love that you tell people to say "no" to clients. I think more property managers just need to do that, to fire clients, because they're so hands on, they want to do everything. It's double the work for you, then they get involved in things they shouldn't, they mess up things, and it's just way more for you. That's another thing from Hemlane and what we offer and what people come to us for, what property managers ask us about is, "Hey, would you ever take our client?" we say, "No, we're a platform." People can use us but they sought just physically do the work and there's still physical stuff to be done. The big question is, "Do they want you to do it, or do they want to do it themselves?" It's based on life events and based on their personal preferences of whether they are going to do full service, whether they are going to do some hybrid, or whether they're going to do everything themselves. I think that's also another question that sometimes we get from managers and we just never seen that, we've never seen someone coming to us and say, "My property manager uses your software. Now we'd like to use it." It's not that, because that person doesn't want to do it, right? Jason: Yeah. There's a reason. Nobody generally wants to go from somebody's taking care of something to I think I'd just be fun to start doing this on my own, when it comes to property management. Dana: Yeah, that's true. The reverse definitely happens, and it happens in increments because they're like, "I want someone to help me but I'm not quite sure, I don't know if I trust this person, I've never worked with them." So, it goes in increment. The only time they see someone who doesn't work with their property manager, who isn't someone on Hemlane but elsewhere is when something goes wrong or when they haven't been communicated to, which honestly, if you have a really good process in place, you're communicating with your owners everyday, you're writing them mail, and they don't have surprises, they shouldn't have that. On our system, we have it set up wherein the property managers can just tell the owners on day two, "Here are your tenants who haven't paid rent, we're following up with them, but just as heads up, they haven't paid rent, so we want to give you a forewarning," so that when you call them on day six and tell them, "We're serving a three-day notice," they're not saying, "Oh wait, now this is a surprise. I thought I was getting the money." I think communication is really, really important there. Jason: Yes, you're talking about this. A lot of times, property managers are just hoping for somebody to just get married to them like, "Let's just get married, without the dating," and I think people aren't really buying property management. They don't want just property management. What they really want is safety and certainty. That's what they're hoping to buy. People don't buy property management, they're buying trust in you as a property manager and asking somebody to turnover the keys and give you everything, for some, is just too big of a risk. I love the idea of they're being some sort of stepping stone in leading into this safety and certainty. How much safety and certainty do they have initially? It's pretty low and if they can just hand you a little bit or a piece of this, then it would be very easy to transition them. A major component of business is retention and upsell. If you can retain them and you can upsell to them, then you're significantly increasing lifetime value and you have this funnel of people coming into this pipeline that you can build a relationship with over time and you can get them into something bigger. Russell Brunson, this crazy marketer that some are saying, got this concept that I'm sure he got from somewhere else called the Value Ladder. The idea of the Value Ladder is that you need these different price points that get marginally larger that you start people with, You don't really want to start people with a really big, high-ticket item. You usually need to start with something small initially, which usually the very beginning is something free, like offering something of free value, or free content, or free information and then it incrementally builds. This gives property managers a little bit more of a Value Ladder to step people and seduce people or convince people into full management. Dana: Yeah exactly. I think you're spot on there, Jason, in the sense of life events change where people upsells do happen. But you rarely see people say, "I'm going for full service with someone I trust" to "Now, I'm managing myself." Once they have already committed, they're done. The only time that happens is if you dropped the ball and what's important for you is to have the software, have the communication, have the processes, have the team in place, build your team in order to do that. You're right. A lot of times, I see it with property managers and I see they have a call and the owner says, "Hey, I'm looking for a property manager," and they go, "Okay great. Well here's all the services that we offer, we're end-to-end, we charge one month's rent for leasing, we charge 10% of [00:43.46] for monthly rent to do everything, and we'll take the keys. When is the good time for me to meet you at the property to see at?" and the owner's like, "Woah, woah, woah." Instead, you should [...] the conversation about, "Great, thanks so much for reaching out to me. What can I help you with? What's the one thing that you hate with your property management? Is it maintenance? Is it doing your showings? What's the one thing that just drives you insane that you want to do?" That will change your game and differentiate you because they're giving that same exact price quote, that same exact spiel from everyone, and it doesn't differentiate you from that perspective. Jason: Going back to that analogy of marriage and dating, a lot of property managers are like, "Hey, you might need some help with your property?" is the equivalent of saying, "Yeah, I might be interested in, maybe, connecting with you." "Great, I'll be moving in tomorrow, like, we're together." Dana: Yup. All the way like, "Here's my contract, sign it. It's annual, there's no free trial, and there's a huge termination clause." For an owner, it's like, "I haven't actually, physically worked with you." It's like hiring an employee. If you worked with someone in the past, you're like, "Okay, I'm ready to go," but if you haven't worked with them, you're like, "I need to do these interviews, I need to do these background checks, I need to do these," and you're like, "I'm not even quite sure if they're going to work out." There's this much larger barrier. As much as you can, avoid and take down that barrier really will help your business. Also, it goes the other way. You're dating now but sometimes you want to tell the client after doing just the leasing for them, "I'm so glad you're taking over the management," and then they reach back out to you to do the leasing next time and you're like, "I would love to do the leasing for you but I'm completely booked," because they were a freaking nightmare to deal with. I never want to deal with them again. Jason: "Please call our competitors down the street. They would love to help you, we're a bit overwhelmed right now." Dana: All of the competitors think. I think the dating goes both ways because one of the things, Jason, I love about your show what you've said time and time again is, a lot of these people who are really stressed in property management, it's because they have 10% of their clients or 150% of the time they've spent of overworked, overwhelmed on these properties and you probably shouldn't be doing those ones. So. I think the dating goes both ways. Jason: Yeah. I tell clients all the time that sales and deals and contracts happen at the speed of trust and it's that simple. I love that with using Hemlane, based on what you're saying, what this allows you to do is to start that relationship with trust. Once you build that, it becomes very easy to upsell or to get them into a more committed relationship with you of doing more stuff with you once you earned that. Once you earned that, if there's anything that they'll need, they'll be happy to use you to do that and you then have more opportunities. That's all property management entrepreneurs need is more opportunities to build trust and the more opportunities they have, the better. It sounds like Hemlane is another channel or possibility for them to do that, that they may not have considered before. Dana: Absolutely. Great way to market from that perspective. Jason: Dana, it's been awesome having you here on the show. How can people get in touch with Hemlane? How can these property managers that are listening get started with you guys? How do they sign up? Dana: If you're interested in our partnership program, we don't do just regular sign ups through our partnership page. Instead of going there, you can just email me, dana@hemlane.com. I'll send that out to our partnership team. Brad will give you a call, schedule, and find some time to go through things with you. That's for the partnership. You can also go to www.hemlane.com and from there you can click the try us for free. You can watch our videos and see what we offer as well, features everything in there, so you can see that as well if you're interested in using our services. If you just have some questions on property management in general and you're in this rut or whatever and you think there is some way that potentially we can get you out of that, we're really happy to hear about that, too, but the fastest thing to do is email me dana@hemlane.com because I'm always on my email. Jason: Cool. Maybe this is the last question so, what is a hemlane? Where does the name Hemlane come from? Dana: Great question. We wanted something that had an international feel to it. We wanted something that was easy to say, easy to pronounce. DoorGrow, really easy to say, really easy to pronounce, two syllables. We wanted something that didn't have any branding behind it. When we looked international, we basically took multiple languages for the word 'home,' and we went through and looked at 'home' in multiple different languages. Hem is house in Swedish, and then Lane is a path that divides others from other people. When you think of a path, you're always looking to get ahead of others and differentiate. So, we put how it's differentiation from that perspective together. We wanted to make sure that we didn't have rental in it, or something that didn't really have its own branding around it. What was funny is when we started Hemlane, it sounded like a horrible pair of cut-off pants like hemline, and everyone I would go to is like, "Do you have a clothing company?" and I was like, "No, it's not a clothing company. It's like the opposite." Now, when you look up, Hemlane it's all Hemlane, it's all property management, but before that, it was a lot of just really bad pictures of people's cut-off pants, hemlines, and stuff like that beforehand. Jason: Good. I love branding, so I love hearing about how people come up with the name and I love that there's this meaning behind this, so it's interesting. Well Dana, it's been a delight having you here on the show, always fun to hangout with like-minded business people and entrepreneurs. I love that you're helping the industry, you're helping growth. I think this is a great fit to have you here on the show and I'm excited to see what success you guys create. Dana: Great. Thank you so much, Jason, for having me on the show. I love your show and I love the content that you have. Jason: I appreciate that. Cool. We'll let you go. It's really great having Dana on, so if you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to have doors, then maybe check out Hemlane, sounds like interesting channel for growth. If you're struggling, you want to optimize your business, optimize your warm lead funnel, you're tired of playing the game of SEO, pay-per-click, content marketing, social media marketing, paper lead services, it's not working, you're spending a lot of money, and you're not getting the return on all that money, then you're probably worse off than if you just not done the marketing in the first place. Those are the people that we would love to help. Reach out to us at DoorGrow and we might just blow your mind, and help you figure out how to target that 70% and grow your business. I had a really cool morning call this morning with Regis [...] one of our clients. I haven't really connected much with him over the last year, but he dialed in our program, did what we said, and he had it over a hundred doors in just the last year, just by doing the stuff that I told him to do. All these success story were keep popping up and I probably should stay better connected but if you're looking to add 100, 200 doors in the next year and you feel like growth, you're losing more doors than you're getting on right now due to the sell-off in the market, and you're focused on cold lead advertising just trying to grow your business and it's just not working, have a conversation with us at DoorGrow. We would love to help you out and our mission really is to transform this industry and help grow it. I believe this industry have massive potential to be as big as probably the entire real estate industry here in the US. There are a lot of rental properties and we've only scratched the surface in terms of growth. I'm excited to see what happens here in the future, so reach out. If you are watching us on Youtube, or you're watching this, make sure to like and subscribe. I want to build up our Youtube channel and get our first 1000 subscribers. We've got, I think a few hundred there right now but I'd love to get to that thousand-dollar market subscribers and you will see these episodes first. You'll be the first to be notified when we put these episodes out. We release them to Youtube as videos before they show up on iTunes. If you're hearing this on iTunes, make sure to go to Youtube and subscribe to our Youtube channel to youtube.com/doorgrow. You load it from your phone right now. Do it and click subscribe. You'll even start getting some notifications from Youtube in your browser occasionally when we pop up a new video and you'll be excited and able to hear some of the latest and greatest material connected to property management industry and the growth. That is all for today, until next time everybody to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Do you use AppFolio? Word on the street is that it's one of the most intuitive and easiest platforms to use, especially in the property management business. Today, I am talking to Nat Kunes. He's the senior vice president of AppFolio, which is an all-in-one solution for property managers to grow their business and be more successful. You'll Learn... [03:05] Shifts in technology solutions: AppFolio started as software as a service (SaaS), Web-based product and then added mobile ability to access anywhere. [04:29] Fourth Industrial Revolution: Applying artificial intelligence (AI) to property management problems. [05:18] AppFolio acquired Dynasty, which provides AI options for the real estate market. Digital employees lease properties, schedule maintenance, and perform other tasks. [08:16] Decision-making behind-the-scenes at AppFolio: Customer Input: Constant communication to identify core problems. Market Trends: Leasing, occupancy, and construction rates to fill units. Technology Shifts: Leverage leading-edge game changers to solve problems. [10:56] Integrations: Growing awareness of APIs to choose different vendors and tools to create custom connections. [12:51] AppFolio Property Manager PLUS Product: Geared toward larger property management firms. [13:30] Future Feature Request: Integration with Zapier to connect to more tools, save time, and increase productivity. [14:05] Employee Experiences: Meeting customer expectations and talent management by hiring and retaining great people is a challenge. [16:08] Recent survey conducted with John Burns Consulting found that factors inhibiting growth include retention and talent shortage. [17:57] Broader Benchmarking: What makes a good leasing agent? What makes a great maintenance technician? What is expected? [18:42] Switching software to grow business and move forward: Partner with progressive company focused on future. [20:43] Internally, AppFolio uses external tracking, HR, sales, and other software that offers insights and feedback to make better decisions. Tweetables Fourth Industrial Revolution: Applying AI to property management problems. Future AppFolio Features: Decisions based on input from customers, market trends, and technology shifts. The growing awareness of APIs integrations to choose tools to create custom connections. Resources AppFolio AppFolio Acquires Advanced Artificial Intelligence Technology Provider AppFolio Property Manager PLUS John Burns Real Estate Consulting Zapier DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. My guest today, finally, we've got AppFolio here on the DoorGrow Show. I'm hanging out with Nat Kunes. I said your name correctly, I think. Nat: Yup. Jason: Awesome. Nat, welcome to the show. Really excited to have you here. Nat: Thank you. So very excited to be here as well. Jason: Cool. Nat, you are the senior vice president of AppFolio. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little background on you and then let's get into the topic at hand. Nat: Thanks for the introduction. I've been at AppFolio now for about 10 years, so pretty early on, in our company history, gotten to grow with the company as well. Our products are really geared around being that all-in-one solution for property managers. From everything that we wake up in the morning to do, it's really to accomplish that one vision which is helping our property managers grow their businesses, be more successful, pretty much everything that sounds like you guys stand for as well. That's why I'm really excited to be on the show with you. Jason: Great. Glad to have you here. I was telling you right before the show, most of our clients use AppFolio. Word on the street is that it's one of the most intuitive platforms to use, easiest, that says a lot about software. I mean, the number one challenge with software is adoption; getting people to just use the thing. Let's be honest, that's the number one challenge with software is just getting people to use it and it being easy to use. Kudos on that. Nat, you've been with AppFolio for a decade now. That's like a miniature lifetime. Tell us some of the changes you've seen while you've been there. I'm curious about that. Nat: Yeah. Really, we've seen some major shifts in technology solutions over that time period. One of the things people are really fortunate in our timing when we started the company, we started out as a web-based product, so Software As A Service from day one. By being web-based, we're able to offer really complete solution that people could access from anywhere. When we started selling AppFolio in the early days, what we'd find was people were oftentimes using either Excel or QuickBooks or maybe some old solution that was on a CD or a server in our closet. Over time, what we saw was that technology shifting. We started web-based, quickly moved into mobile, knowing how important mobile was to our customers and their customers—the tenants, the residents of these different units, the property owners as well—and all that communication, it needs to happen. We drew a line in the sand and said, "Hey, anything that you do on your computer, you should be able to do on your mobile device." That was kind of a different take when we first started down that path. Because originally, people were coming out with apps that would do just like one little maintenance thing here or one little big sync thing there and we said, "Really, everything needs to work on a mobile device." That was kind of the first major shift just since we started AppFolio. The second major shift just happened in the last couple of years and you're seeing us invest a lot in it. It's really what we're calling kind of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. It's tied to artificial intelligence. What we're doing now is applying artificial intelligence technology to property management problems. Doing things like having opportunities to create digital employees that help people do things like lease up properties faster, handle maintenance issues in a much faster fashion. That's kind of the new major shift that we're seeing in the industry. Over the last decade, we've kind of lived through a couple of these transitions. Our goal is always to be leading the charge on behalf of our clients to make sure that they always have the most modern property management software is available to them to help them grow their business faster. Jason: We always hear this idea of AI. A lot of times when I've looked at different AI systems, it really, a lot of times, just looks like a really elaborate tree structure where they've just created a bunch of 'if then' statements and they call it AI. How is this actually coming into AppFolio? What are you guys doing to stay at the forefront and bring AI into your platform? Maybe give an example. Nat: A great example, you guys might have seen, we made an acquisition earlier this year of a company called Dynasty. What Dynasty does is artificial intelligence for the leasing process. When you give out a phone number for someone to inquire about an available unit, what it'll do is it will start a conversational AI experience with the tenant via text messages. It will have full on conversations talking about availability of the unit, pricing of the unit, setting up a time to show the unit as well. You can imagine all the things behind the scenes that have to work for that to happen, it has to be able to have access to your leasing agents showing calendar, it has to interact with the prospective tenant, find times that work with them. It has to know full on availability of your units and then be able to book showings. Then follow-up with confirmations on these showings and then follow-up with, "How was your showing?" What we found is, using artificial intelligence, we're able to close people for showings at a much higher rate in humans alone and it takes away all the mundane tasks, as you can imagine, of just the back and forth of calendaring and all that time that kind of goes into that and lets your leasing agent really focus on what they do best which is closing the unit, getting that prospect in there, booking it as fast as possible so that you can focus on showing the unit and doing that. That's a great example. All of that's done through conversational AI. If you talk to prospective residents, they really have no idea that they're conversing with an AI device. They really believe that they're talking with a human. That's what makes it so effective in closing those showings, in getting those guys to actually show up on property. That's a great example of it in action in. I think that you'll see that manifest itself in many different areas of the property management business. Think of all any mundane tasks that doesn't really require your best staff to do. Booking a showing is just a calendar activity of back and forth. Imagine that in other areas of your business where you can apply your resources to higher priority projects that let you grow your business. Jason: Maybe you could give listeners a little bit of insight behind the scenes there a t AppFolio since you've been there for so long. You've acquired Dynasty, you're implementing this leasing conversational AI which sounds really cool, how do you guys go about deciding what is the next feature? How do you guys go about deciding internally? Maybe you could share a little bit what sort of the culture is. Because I think a lot of people see you as this big player in the market and I'd love to hear what goes on behind the scenes into the decision-making area. Nat: We use a few different inputs in terms of how we decide what to focus on. First and foremost, we look at our customers and we say, "Okay. What are our customers desires? What problems are they trying to solve in their business?" We have constant communication and feedback loops with our customers. Our customers are very diverse. We have customers with sometimes 50 doors, and we have customers with tens of thousands of doors. They could span a lot. We have customers that focus on single families exclusively, some do multi-family, some do commercial units—it kind of crosses the gamut there of community associations as well. We're constantly gathering input from our customers trying to identify, "Really, what are the core problems they're trying to solve?" And then we take that back and say, "Okay, how can we apply technology solutions to solve that?" That's kind of one layer. The other layer we're looking at is market trends. We're trying to stay out in front of, "Okay, what's leasing and occupancy rates look like this year? What does the macroeconomic market construction rates?" All that kind of stuff to try and stay ahead and say, "Okay. If it looks like, for instance, a lot of new construction is going to come out of the market, that's going to flood a bunch of supply which means it's going to be harder to fill those units." Focusing on leasing experiences for our client thus can be critical for their success over the next couple of years. That's kind of another layer. The third layer we'd look at is major technology shifts that we believe would be kind of game changers in the market and we need to get ahead of on behalf of our customers. Like I mentioned, AI is a big one. That is really the big shift in technology solutions, we're calling kind of that Fourth Industrial Revolution. We believe that will change the trajectory of software and how businesses operate just as much as mobile and the web did previously. We're getting ahead of that for our customers and focusing on areas within our product that can leverage that technology to solve our customers' problems in their businesses is yeah, their main input. We take all those, amalgamate them up, and then that's the focus of our teams. We have a lot of resources at our disposal to execute against that for our customers and deliver great products consistently to them. Jason: One of the trends we noticed inside our DoorGrow club group and one of the trends that we've seen a lot of people pushing and asking for, is there seems to be this heightened awareness of APIs, integrations and being able to pick and choose different vendors and different tools. I'm curious, is that anywhere on the roadmap for this? I know you guys are doing some really innovative things with the AI but as far as allowing AppFolio customers to create connections to other tools and third-party tools, is that on the horizon at all for AppFolio? Nat: Yeah. That's a great question. What we take a look at when we look at APIs in general is, we really dive back to the problem that we're trying to solve. We talk to our clients and say, "Okay, what's the API being used for?" A good example of that in action is someone said, "I have this business intelligence database that I want to pipe my data out of and into, so I can do this custom queries or reports and it's something for my investors or my owners that are unique to them and I want to do that." Other examples that we've seen is, "Hey, I want to use a particular collections firm to do my tenant collections." What we do is we tend to look at those on individual basis, say, "How can we provide the best experience for that particular use case?" Instead of a generic API structure that doesn't really work really well with a lot of different vendors and you can wind up with broken integrations and different things that you'll hear complaints often about, we tend to focus on particular vendors that we can partner up with. Right now, we actually have hundreds of integrations with different vendors behind-the-scenes. Some of them are out there and we talk very proudly about them and partner up with them. Others are enabling our customers behind-the-scenes as well. Late last year, we actually launched a new product that's geared more towards larger property management firms called AppFolio Property Manager Plus. As part of that, one thing we heard from them is, "Hey, I need that data via an API to input in two things like my data warehouse and my business intelligence applications." There is an actual API that comes with that product to do just that. On a case-by-case basis, we do look at those things. At this point, we've done that enough that we, like I said, hundreds of different integrations with different third parties. But that's the approach that we take when we hear customers. We ask that, say, "What's the problem we're trying to solve and let's figure out a way to solve it together." Jason: I'm going to throw a feature request because I've been asked by every property management software that comes on for this, because I think it'd be a game changer, but Zapier integration. I don't think there's any major property management software that's come up with Zapier integration which will allow them to connect to lots and lots of different tools and resources. I'm throwing it out there. Maybe you guys will do it in the future. We'll see. I think the first software that will do that is going to get a lot of attention because it really opens up to a lot of tools and it's one integration. Nat: Yeah. Jason: Alright, cool. Let's talk about this idea of your employees' experiences outside of just meeting customer expectations. You would this over and it's just that many firms are still struggling to overcome the challenges with business growth and talent management. Let's talk about that a little bit. Nat: What we hear when we talk to our clients is one, we'll say, "What's the biggest challenge in your business?" A lot of times, it doesn't actually necessarily boil down to software or technology or things like that. It's the people element of business. Hiring and retaining great people in the businesses is a struggle, it's a challenge. There are definitely talent shortages in some key areas, amongst them, maintenance and some of the other areas of the business. What we've been able to find through our technology is two-fold. One is helping you do more with the team that you have. That's a great way to solve talent shortages. As I mentioned that leasing situation, if I have five leasing agents then I can add 100 more doors and still have five leasing agents, that's huge. You don't have to continue to find new people. The counter to that is retaining those people. One thing we pride ourselves, as you mentioned earlier on, is our software being extremely easy to use. What benefit that gives our clients is a, the day-to-day work of the employees of the firm is much richer because it's just easy. They're not struggling with our software constantly day in and day out and complaining about that and causing them productivity loss. And then the other factor that comes into play there is when onboard a brand-new employee, you can train them so much faster. Because it's so intuitive and easy to use, instead of handing them a big binder and saying, "Read this for two weeks and then maybe you could start using the software," they can get in day one, start using, and be a productive, effective employee much faster. Those are the areas that we really focus on to try and help our clients with that talent piece of the equation. Jason: You'd sent this over and it says that you work with John Burns, a real estate consulting firm, and you discovered that four of the top five factors inhibiting growth were employee related. What were these five factors? Do you have that? Nat: One thing we should do is perhaps we could actually share out the report with you guys and include that at the end. Because it's a lot to go through the whole things right now but a lot of them were retention of existing employee, key talent shortages. It's the ones that I've already hit on, add it up to the five. But there's a lot more nuance detail behind each of the five. I think it behoove you guys to read through that report because it is actually extremely valuable as companies look to grow their business to read through that, because there are some good strategies in there, how to counter that, and how to continue to grow despite those five headwinds that might be against the business. Jason: Yeah, we see that. I have the sand traps, at least that I'd call. We've got the solopreneur sand trap which is about 50-60 units and that's where they're trying to hire maybe their first team member and that's a challenge to just offload anything or to get a team member on and retain them. The next sand trap is getting to that 200-400 door category. This is the team sand trap where they now have a team and they're trying to figure out, "How do I keep good team members? How do I have A players instead of B players? How do I get people that aren't just showing up for a paycheck, that want to go home at the end of the day and complain about me and the business and the job, and they live for the weekend?" I think that's a big challenge. Property management is a tough business to be in. They deal with a lot of difficult things and so sometimes it is difficult to keep the team happy, positive, and motivated and not too stressed. Nat: And benchmarking as well. It's like, "What makes a good leasing agent? What makes a great maintenance technician? What makes being able to see what's normal, what should be expected of them in a day-to-day basis, to being able to look broader?" That's another key area. It's like, "How do I know if I have a great leasing agent? If they're turning a unit in 15 days, is that good, is that bad, is that short, is that long?" Being able to have that benchmark to compare against industry normal and then also geographic normal—all that kind of stuff—is critical as well to, like you said, building a great team and making them productive and effective. Jason: Alright. Let's take the listeners. Listeners are challenged with growth a lot of times. They're dealing with team issues, they're dealing with operational stuff, they're usually pretty in bed with their software. If they're with AppFolio, it'd be difficult to switch. If they're with somebody else, it'd be difficult to switch. What ultimately do you think we should leave with the listeners as a takeaway from this for them to be able to grow their business and to move things forward? Nat: The things that I always give guidance on is just make sure you're partnered up with a company that's looking to the future. You want a future-proof your business. You want to make sure that you're keeping that long-term view in mind when you choose software solutions. You may have some short-term pains, I'd say, it's hard to find a software solution anywhere, in any business, in any market that sounds 100% of everything you want. But to make sure that you're partnering up with a company that you feel is like-minded, that's progressive, that's constantly pushing forward towards new things. Like what I talked about AI, if you believe that AI is the future as well, then you want to partner up with a company that is investing in that space, that can provide solutions there. That kind of like-mindedness I think is one of the most important things that I say that can enable growth. We see a lot of our customers are able to grow their business because they invested in solid technology early on. That would be one thing that I would say as a key takeaway. I'd say that even at AppFolio, we offer software solutions from other companies and that's what we look for when we buy software to help us run our businesses. "Who's going to be with us in 10 years? Who's going to be in it for the long haul?" Switching software every year is extremely painful and it can set your business back. You want to make sure that when you do that, that you're really investing for the future. Jason: That brings up a really curious question. If you're a software company, what software tools do you use internally? I'm sure listeners will be a little bit curious that. Nat: We use lots of different software. We use a lot of software to help us make better decisions as a business. We'll use things within the product to serve up insights so we can see, "Oh, hey. People are spending X amount of time on this page." Or, "People are clicking on this a lot. Why is that?" It helps us serve up insights that we can then talk to customers and say, "Hey, I notice when you're looking at residence, you always click this one link. Is that because it's not as easy to get there as it could be?" Helping us make the product easier to use. We use a lot of tracking tools like that to try to make better decisions within the product. We've use lots of product that's on the market. We've used a few over the years that do that. We'll have those types of things. We'll have tools that help us gather feedback. We are constantly gathering feedback from our customers, actual verbatims, and they'll see that borrow sometime and show up at the bottom of the screen that says, "Hey, would you recommend us to a friend or colleague? What do you think about AppFolio? Help us make it better." Anytime we roll out new features, we have software that lets them click and provide direct feedback and say, "Hey, I would change this. I would change that." We'll iterate on that. Then we have obviously lots of backend software just like any company of decent size. We have companies to help us manage payroll, and HR, sales, all those kinds of things as well. But those are kind of generic company products as well. A lot of what we invest in is technology to make our products better and provide more value to our clients. Jason: Alright. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show here, Nat. This was interesting. How can people get in touch with AppFolio? What's the easiest way? Nat: The best way is to contact your client services rep if you are a customer. They'll always know exactly where to direct you to and help you get any help. If you're looking at new features, functionality, you need training, whatever, we can help with that. For prospects or people that are interested in checking out our software, you can definitely go to appfolio.com, there's a form right there, it gets routed right to one of our agents that can help you take a look at the software, take a deeper dive, learn more about the features, learn more about where we're headed with it, a little bit about the AI stuff I talked about today, you can learn a lot through that as well. That would be the two main paths that I'd say if you're a current customer versus someone who's interested in checking out the software for the first time. Jason: Cool. Nat, thanks for coming on the show. Glad to have AppFolio represented here on the DoorGrow Show. I wish you guys success in helping the industry. Nat: Awesome. Thank you so much for having us. We're happy to join anytime. Jason: Alright. Thanks, Nat. Cool. For those of you that are watching, make sure you check our AppFolio. If you don't have a property management software, it's definitely on my list of the top ones to check out for sure. Take a look and check out AppFolio at appfolio.com. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, you're struggling, or maybe you just need a better website, or maybe you want a little bit of coaching, something related to growth, reach out to DoorGrow. Check us out at doorgrow.com, schedule with me or my team, and we will get you connected and help you move things forward. Make sure you join our community, connect to this podcast which is the DoorGrow Club. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com. If your website is more than two-three years old, it's probably getting stale, it's probably leaking money so go test it out, go to doorgrow.com/quiz, raid your website, check it out, and it's going to give you a letter grade—like going back to elementary school, people. You're going to get a grade on your website based on how effective it is at making you money and meeting your needs in terms of growing your business. Websites are not built to just please Google; they're built to please people. If they please people, they make you a lot more money. Ultimately, that's Google's goal as well, to please people. That's how they sell ads. Alright, everybody, check that out. Until next time, to our mutual growth. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time! Take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Building your property management business and team can be challenging. As a business owner and entrepreneur, you are wired to fix problems. So, get out of the way, and hire people who have different skill sets to solve them. Today, I am talking Melissa Prandi of PRANDI Property Management. Everybody in the National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) knows her name. She helped establish it and has been in the property management business for 37 years. You'll Learn... [03:13] Brand new baby, brand new company, but no bank loan. [04:23] Beginning of NARPM and best practices for property management software. [05:25] Solopreneur Sandtrap: Can only handle 50-60 doors before getting stuck. [05:48] Team Sandtrap: Bottleneck of 200-400 doors when building a team, creating a culture, and systemizing processes become painful. [06:33] How to build a team: Different personalities and skill sets. [09:15] Success comes with your willingness to change. [12:15] Good at growing the company and letting people grow or go. [14:50] End-of-the-day (EOD) Report: Rate your day, workload, challenges. [15:50] Working from home: Nobody can touch you; a physical disconnect. [16:44] Modes of Communication: Basecamp, Voxer, and email. Analyze styles to know what tools to use. [21:10] Entrepreneur's Ego: Nobody can do it as good as me. [24:57] It's not always about business. Something's going on. What can I do to help? [28:42] Face-time and morning connections to catch awesomeness and say thanks. [31:30] Making mistakes and 'aha' moments; what did you do/should have done? [34:15] Be a student and fan of what works, and be willing to fail. Never stop learning; speak and teach. Share your knowledge because people soak it up. [38:20] Keep yourself well to be a good leader. Health is #1 thing to impact productivity. [44:40] Reach out and lean on others who have been through the same things. Tweetables Success comes with your willingness to change. Be a student and fan of what works and be willing to fail. To grow your business, you have to build a community. You can't do everything. Listening to chipmunks all day long telling you what needs to happen. Resources Melissa Prandi PRANDI Property Management NARPM Tony Robbins: DiSC Personality Test Basecamp Voxer Bluefishing: The Art of Making Things Happen by Steve Sims EMDR Therapy DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. And today, I have a very special guest, Melissa Prandi. Melissa, welcome to the DoorGrow Show. Melissa: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Jason: Melissa, you are practically synonymous with NARPM, you helped found NARPM, you have everybody in NARPM knows you, and you have been involved in property management for how many years now? Melissa: Thirty-seven years. March 27. Jason: Thirty-seven years which is almost my entire life, right? Melissa: You have to say that, yup. Jason: Which is amazing. You have tons of experience, you are this phenomenal character and charismatic person. Everybody's been telling me I have to get Melissa on the show. I'm really excited for you to be here. Maybe the place to start would be to why don't you share with everybody your story? How did you get started in property management all that time ago? What crazy idea popped in your head to make you decide that [...] Melissa: There's a lot of crazy [...]. I have to say I started in my company March 27, 1982 as a receptionist. I came in, all of my friends have gone off to college, I said, "I'm not going to afford to go to college. I'm going to work three jobs." So, I came in, that was one of my three jobs, I was a receptionist at a property management company. I worked there 5½ years. This is great because women love this part of the story. When I went out on maternity leave on a Wednesday at five o'clock, I went grocery shopping Thursday and Friday morning I went into labor. If you know where I live, I'm in Marin County just north of San Francisco and I had to cross the Golden Gate bridge. I got to the hospital at 10 minutes to eight in the morning, I [...] 10 minutes to nine in the morning, said, "Okay, give me my [...] I have things to do with backup," went home the same day. Jason: What? Melissa: Yeah. I had this new baby boy, Matt, many people know Matt, and Monday morning the owners of my company called and said, "We're going to sell this company. If you don't buy it, you're going to be out of the job." I didn't take too long. I said, "Oh, you know. Hmm, I have a new baby. Hmm," and I'm going to have two new babies. Sure enough, I made arrangements. I went to my dad and said, "Dad, I want to buy this company." He goes, "Really?" and I said, "Yeah, I want to buy it." He said, "All right," and I said, "Well, I need a loan." He goes, All right, I'll give you $3000." But the [...] you can't do is go to a bank and get a loan, so I had to get very creative with this brand new baby and a brand new company. That was 37 years go. Jason: That was quite the adventure. When an entrepreneur personality type is given a challenge like this, you had a clear outcome, clear objective, you were going to get that company and you had all of this pressure. Entrepreneurs in those moments, like we, light up and something magical starts to happen, right? And it work out for you. Melissa: I guess so. [...] I'm still sitting here and [...] NARPM, still doing property management. Jason: Great. Maybe share a little backstory on how did NARPM come to be? How this this come about? Melissa: It's an interesting story. I wasn't one of the original 100 that were in the charter of NARPM. A handful of people got together and they were actually exchanging software challenges. [...] own a software company at the time which is no longer, and they started talking about their best practices. They all kicked in money to start NARPM. I'm 25 years in NARPM, so you can imagine that's pretty much a part of my life. Jason: Quite a while. Our topic today is building your business and team. At your business, Brandi Property Management, I would imagine that you have a pretty awesome team after all this time. A lot of people this is a big challenge. I've talked about this on the show before but there's these two sand traps I've noticed in property management. The first sand trap in growth is around 50 or 60 units. This is the solopreneur sand trap. That's about as many doors as they can handle on their own and they get stuck. Sometimes, they back themselves into a financial corner, they don't have enough revenue to hire their first person, they're managing as much as they can handle, they're losing doors as fast as they're getting on, and they're stuck. For those listening, if you're stuck in that, talk to me. We can help you get past that. If you break past that 100 door barrier, I found that by default they end up in the next sand trap, which is the 200–400 door category. This is where it's the team sand trap. This is where they're not building a team, they're trying to create culture, they're trying to systemize processes, they're trying to wrap their head around what they should be doing, and as they approach maybe 400–500 units it gets really painful because everybody's asking them for everything and they start to realize they are the number one bottleneck in the entire business, that everything they got them there they have to give up. I'm excited to talk with you because you've dealt with this stuff and you've seen this. Maybe you could share your perspective of what does it really take to build a business and how does the team really play into that from your perspective. Melissa: You touched on little bit of my message is getting out of the way. I'm not the tech generation, the paperless generation. I still use paper. I still like to print and read. It doesn't work in today's market for everybody. I would say the number one thing as you grow is to get out of the way. Get out of the way and hire people that have different skill sets. In our company, we always do personality tests. Tony Robbins offers it for free. Jason: The DISC? Melissa: Yeah, the DISC test. It's free on his website. We do that, find the personality styles. For example, in a bookkeeper, you want someone who is very good, very high, and procedural. You want to make sure you find that in any of your staff mates. In our chain we have a big diversity, age, and skills. You can't remember everybody have personality when you want to be like me. I never met a stranger and I'm a visionary. I'm the person who's up with the ideas, tell us the way I wanted results and then gets out of the way. Jason: I love it. I'm a big proponent of using the DISC as well. In fact, Tony Robbins recently switched his DISC assessment, if you've noticed, from the inner metrics, which I actually used to have a connection where I would get the full three-part inner metrics, which is even better than the Tony Robbins one which gives you the first two portions. But then, it started getting watered down and smaller. They just recently switched DISC providers and it changed, but I find it's better than what it was even though it's not as pretty. You can do that free DISC assessment. You've got people on you team that are high C's, they love compliance, they are rigid, they're probably not the best friendly communicators, you've got high I's that are great communicators and really great maybe with people, maybe high S's that are great with customer service, maybe DC's which are like unicorns that are really great at operations, maybe high DI's which are great at sales and closing. Understanding that gives you a lot of power in being able to understand people. Melissa: [...] when you get ready to hire, looking at that needs assessments. Looking that what diversity is in your team, but I want to go back to something you test on again because this is where [...] out, which is change. Success comes with your willingness to change. That's what basically you're talking about as you're training your team and also speaking to the property managers, as you said, they reach out to you. They have to be willing to change and I'm willing to change. That's why I take a lot of classes even after all these years. I get into classes and I think of these aha moments that's like, "Oh, I used to do that." I cannot just go back sometimes and do things I used to do, but I also wanted to say, "Oh, we can't do that." "Why not?" "Well, we tried that." Don't have this theory of 'that's the way we've always done it,' because that [...] stuck. Jason: Right. Any of us who have been in business long enough, we've probably forgotten more than we've learned. There's so much and it's great to get those reminders. You have mentioned early on that they need to get out of the way. How does somebody consciously do that? A lot of times when we're in the way, we can't see it. It's almost like telling somebody, "Look at the back of your head." It's how they feel. You're saying, "Get out of the way," and they're like, "I don't even know how I'm in the way. How do I do that?" How do you help [...] Melissa: I'm sitting upstairs in a private suite away from my entire staff. My son, Matt, and let me just tell you I started the way I got the business when Matt was born, right? My son used to say, "Mom, nobody grows up and wants to be a property manager. Matt just celebrated his 11th year in property management and he's our [...] Business Development Manager. Jason: Over a decade. Melissa: Yeah. But he didn't. He went to college. He didn't think, "Well, that's what I want to be when I grow up. Nor did I. I don't [...] thought you're going to be servicing property managers." But Matt sits in my original office. Therefore there's a different skill set and, guess what, I'm not in the way. I'm down there and there's something like walking by the office to go fix it as it get me out of the way. Jason: You've physically have gotten yourself out of the way so you're not hearing the auditory things that you would normally trigger a response and cause you to go into fix-it mode as an entrepreneur because we hear problems, we're wired. We want to fix it. We also see a problem, we're like, "I can make money solving that problem." That's how we think. Melissa: And I tell you, I still go down, I'll sit there and they want to see. Remember, I'm the face of the company. I'm the visionary. So, I [...] in the morning, I start down there, good morning to everybody, "Good morning, Frank. Good morning, Christine." I go through my good mornings, I say hello to everybody there, and that's [...]. I find out if there's anything they need, me but I [...] work for the first couple of hours at home. What difference does it make? It allows me to actually stay home. Let me tell you that my role, I was a property manager as I said when I started in the business. Got my license and my broker's license, went to California State, got into real estate, and then I helped grow the company. And I'm very good at it. I really think if you want to grow your business, you have to be in community. You can't be in community and be in the office operations and running everything. You can't do everything. I have gone out of the way by not being physically in an office downstairs where everybody can come to me. Now, I have a really good team. Christine Goodin who has her RMP with NARPM and her MPM. That's a Residential Property Manager. MPM is a Master Property Manager. She came to work for me 18 years ago and she didn't even know what property management was. And she's now the Vice-President of Operations. So, you hire right, you bring them to educational courses. Don't stand in their way growing, either. That's another really key factor. Don't let them get stagnant. I say, "How do you keep somebody happy for 18 years? Give them new challenges." You give them new roles. Let them grow right along with you. Jason: Yeah, if you find somebody that has a growth mindset. Not everybody wants to grow. There are certain personality types that love growth, they love learning. On DISC they would have a high theoretical score typically, for example, on the Tony Robbins DISC profile that we have mentioned. But if they love learning, they have a growth mindset, and that's a priority in their life is personal development, then you got a feedback. You feed them that and you have a team member that, just like fine wine, accrues value over time. Melissa: [...] I want to go back, though, because it's not without mistakes when you hire someone that doesn't like the business. I think oftentimes with property managers and our groups and our friends come to me and they ask questions. I think some of the hardest thing we had was letting go. We hire someone that doesn't fit in the team, doesn't fit in our culture, and we hang on. I think [...] over the years. It took me a while to get there. But I can tell you that if you're mostly have a 30-day, a 60-day, maybe a 90-day introductory period, if it's not working in that first month, it doesn't usually change. So, if I [...] in the States because I'm nice and I'm a fixer, then I hang on. [...] wait too long. Again, if you're going through and adding to your team, you need to really make sure that you're checking in. I want to give you a tip because I'm talking about that. I love to share. Jason: Yeah. Melissa: In the first 90 days of a new team member come in to work at Prandi Property Management, we do what's called EOD, an end of the day report. They actually write down things they learned, the challenges they found that day, and just some sharing. At the end of that, they rate their day a one, a two, or a three—there could be 2.5—based on what they feel their workload, three being, "I can't handle any more and I'm full." I have a new employee coming on and she's been with me, let's say, 20 days, and she gave me a 1–1½, we're not giving her enough work. If you're going to bring somebody new onto your team, again I don't have to check on them, I don't have to call on her, I don't have to sit with her, somebody else is handling all the training, but as the owner, the CEO, and the visionary, I need to know how I'm doing with the team's giving her information and what she needs from me to make her the best Prandi team member. Jason: You mentioned a couple of things that I think are really important to point out. One, you mentioned that by not just having your office separate or segregated but also being able to work from home and working from home. I run a virtual team and a virtual company. Nobody can touch me and I've always had that advantage that there is a physical disconnect. I will probably go on saying that if my assistant could walk in every 10 minutes and say, "Hey, what should I be doing now?" I would go nuts, right? Having that, that's another option for those that are listening, there is a trend with some people that they're moving towards more virtual teams and digital offices and that can also create that disconnect. Melissa: I want to ask you a question so I can also [...] and teach the audience. How do you communicate best with the person since you are virtual, and we all love the virtual part of it, how are you best communicating with your team member that's even your assistant? What's the best way you all communicate? Jason: Our main modes of communication, we use Basecamp as a communication platform. What that allows us to do is to post messages, to think about things, to get clarity and put it, and then we allow team members to respond to those, rather than throwing it all out real-time in a meeting where everybody has to react, because I find the responses are big-time wasters and it's not as helpful. We usually post memos or post a to-do and then people that are need to be looped in will be looped in and can comment on that. That keeps things really quiet and makes people think. It creates a very calm workplace. That's our foundational mode of communication. For quicker communication, we use the app Voxer and that is a walkie-talkie app. I don't like typing and texting all the time. It takes too long. I'm quick. I want to send a voice message so I hold down a button on the app and I say, "Hey, Adam. Can you check on this client? They have mentioned this and do this and blah-blah-blah." And then he'll take care of it. The cool thing about Voxer is if you're really impatient as an entrepreneur, if you listen to the messages, if you're in the chat with somebody, the messages are real time. But if you're not, it works like voice messages, like voicemail. And you can play them at high speed so you can speed up if they're already done talking and the recording's there, then you can play it at high speed. So, I'm listening to chipmunks all day long, telling me what needs to happen. There's a lot of communication even through Voxer or a situation like that that I just need the details, so I can just listen really quickly and we can consume information cognitively and auditory-wise much faster than we can speak it. We can usually do it at almost twice the pace very easily. Melissa: It brings another point of communication. A good team member and a good team lead [...]. People need to know you're supporting them. That's what I [...]. But I was thinking about it, we did a lot of team-building last year. We hired [...] consultants to come in, and one thing I've learned about myself was delivery of email. Don't stand [...] similar. Send [...] information and what the fact is, what the need is, send it to me in a delivery form. If you have team members and that you're on a call today and the podcast, I think it's really important to know your style, what you want. They also said that I was sending the exact [...] that said, "Well, I send it after the company email and no one responds," and they said, "Send me a few of those." The guy came back and said, "You're not asking for anything. You're sending information but you're not asking." "Okay, I need this back but [...]" It's not that we do a campaign to get you. This is where's the call-to-action. [...] entrepreneur and you're on the show today and you want to learn. Ask somebody from the outside to come in and analyze your style and your teams and they'll help give you tools. I've done that. I'm always learning. Jason: One of the hacks that I learned when I worked at Hewlett-Packard is that we were told to have certain subject lines if we were sending emails. If we needed some sort of response, you always had to say, "ACTION REQ'D:" at the beginning of the subject line in all caps. So, we would do ACTION REQ'D: if there's an action required, or FYI was for your information only, you don't need to do anything on it. So, there was kind of this code with subject lines. Now, I'm beyond email. I don't even look at my email. If anybody emails me, I'm not going to probably see it. My assistant handles all of that for me because I don't like email. I don't want to communicate through email. So, I set up a system in which somebody else can go with that and she just tells me the four or five emails I need to deal with and the other 100 or 200 I get a day are [...] somebody else. Melissa: She's a very good communicator and she is very responsive. If she doesn't get a response, she page me again, making sure and not [...] very positive way. She's patient, when I'm really busy, I'll be a couple of days [...] she's right back checking in with me. You've got someone watching your back and helping you grow, I'm sure. Jason: Oh yeah. It's a huge help and that's the thing is with hiring, I think one of the big constraints of those with entrepreneurs is this myth that if I have somebody else do it, it won't be done as well. It's such an egotistical thing that people need to get over. This belief that nobody will be as good as me. As long as somebody believes that, it's true. They make it true and they create a situation which they'll never be able to offload things. But I can speak with total confidence that every single person on my team is better at what they do than myself. They're all better at what they do. India, way better at email than me. I don't want to deal with email. I'm short with emails, I don't pay attention, I miss things. Email's not my thing. Melissa: [...] going back to the strength of the team and knowing your strength as the owner/CEO of your company and knowing my strength. You put me in a room with 200 people, you put me in a room with 1000 people, I try to meet every one of them. I know that my strength in the world growing my business, is to be the face of the business, to be in the field. I was in a class this morning. I've been taking classes at the local university on hiring teams and developing teams. Yesterday, I took a great workshop at Dominican University from a [...] a little bit about,job descriptions, position statements, and what's the end results. They really teach us to have things in place and what our expectation is. So I'm always taking courses to try and figure out how can I be better at things. I'm never going to be the techie person that knows how to set everything up. I hand it to my son. I don't have to be, right? He's 31 years old. I can hand it to Matt and say, "Matt, I don't understand this. My phone is doing something. Here, can you just fix it?" I can hand it to Christine and she's going to help me. So just not trying to waste time, I [...] come at me. And don't forget, part of [...] today is also life balance. Being able to turn it off, take care of ourselves because we have a good team. Jason: I think the more that an entrepreneur focuses on self-care, the more they have to give to their team and the lower the pressure noises. One of things I've noticed with entrepreneurs is that when our pressure noise gets high—it can be high in property management or in any business, but we deal with a lot as business owners—all of the worst attributes you share about business owners come out. People could perceive us as controlling or angry or frustrated because we get into this preloaded state where we're in a stress response. If you lower the pressure noise for an entrepreneur, our genius comes out. Our best attributes come out. The visionary comes out. We're able to see the future. We're able to make decisions about things. If an entrepreneur does not have the team that they are in love with right now, then they're not the person yet that should be running it. That's the sad truth. They haven't become that person yet, that can have a team, that instead of them having feeling like they are trying to control, it's instead a team that they're able to just inspire. Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control and we get into that stressful place where we're trying to manipulate and get our team to do stuff and we're trying to force KPIs down their throat or trying to push them to do things because we feel like, "Why can't me team just do what I need them to do?" We shift into a calm space of, "What does my team need from me in order to be as successful as possible so they can keep helping me the way that they've been helping me?" and that's a much more comfortable place to be. It's a calm, quiet workplace. Melissa: I actually have never been accused of… I don't yell, I'm a very calm-natured person, I deal with and respect boundaries, so I'm very good about how would that person feel if they were in my seat, how are they want to be treated. I do that a lot. I know their personal. Something's going on. You want to know if something's going on, it's not always about business. Those people that have lives [...] out the door. So, I'm really in-tune with that. I called someone in yesterday and said, "Look, I can tell something's going on. You just not coming work with that bright smile. What can I do to help?" So, even though I'm not downstairs, still sense the energy and pay really good attention. I try to make sure they know that I really care and I do care. The other thing is really working with an outside business consultant. Don't get stuck. Have somebody come in and help build your team by doing team building. We had a lot of fun doing team building last year at the end of the year in October. Last year in October, we went out and went off site, we prepared everything so we can all leave, and we had one person [...] kind of helped out while we work on all day. We worked on what I think the success in my company is very strongly if we're not communicating with each other, and we're not respecting, getting along, and taking our own blinders off from our busy property management day, then the outside world is getting that same message. So, if I'm not really happy doing my job as a property manager and I'm not having a good day because my team members not [...] and the other team members not doing something, that equals out to the public and that's when one of those one-star reviews come in. You can ask the team to let them know they're supportive with each other, give them the tools, working with that, and let them get to know each other and [...] each other, that goes out to customer service. Jason: There's this great book by a gentleman. I believe his name is Steve Sims and the book's called Bluefishing. He basically talks about how his whole goal with his team members or even with clients that he wants to work with is they have to pass the chug test. It's like, "Would I want to have a beer with this person?" and it's just a simple gut check to say, "Do I like this person? Do I enjoy being around this person? Does this person makes me feel safe? Do I feel comfortable?" because if anybody on your team doesn't make you feel comfortable and you're always worried about them or you're concerned about them or there's some sort of weird disconnect in rapport between the two of you, they're adding to you pressure and noise. I think that it is important to like your team, to actually like them. Melissa: [...] company. Sometimes when there's one person who's not [...] team, they go and they grab other people. Jason: Oh yeah, they're a cancer. Melissa: You have to be really careful with that. But I really [...] week after our last retreat work and that was they wanted. For somebody [...] it's not the most positive [...], so we started a Positively Prandi board. We got that big board [...] coffee and our tea is, and people are [...], "Congratulations on your three-year anniversary." We write riddles. [...] while the sun is shining now, how happy we are today. And that doesn't cost money. It's just a little more positivity and always share a five-star review. We always celebrate a good review, and if it's not [...] we could get there. That's another [...] about growing your business is really you have to work on your teams, inside the walls of your team before you can really start wanting to grow and double or triple in size. Jason: You have mentioned early on that you make sure you have this morning connection with your team. My team's virtual and we've done the same thing. I felt like it's absolutely critical that you get FaceTime with your entire team. Those that have virtual teams that are listening, or virtual team members, one of the things that we do at DoorGrow is we do a morning huddle. It's 15 minutes, we set it at a weird hour so that people know that time matters. We set it at a weird time, like it's not at a half-hour mark or hour mark and people have to show up for that. It's 15 minutes, we just share stats openly in the company, here's how much revenue we've made so far this month, here's how many people on our Facebook group, all that different stats that matter, and then we do 'caught being awesome,' when we say, "Anybody catch anybody being awesome in the last day?" Sometimes it's a little awkward if it's a small huddle and not everybody showed up and people are like [...]. But I always comes up with somebody that we can point out or highlight somebody. Melissa: [...] for us at Prandi Property Management, I have a weekly team meeting. I get copies of the notes so I can look at what's going on with the teams, and the at the very bottom it says, "Did you write a thank you note to them?" because still old-fashioned handwritten thank you notes go a long way. We have Prandi custom beautiful notes cards, it works in all industries, and who did you thank today? It's similar to what you're saying because a team, I like that. I want to go back and say that, "Who did you catch being awesome today?" That's kind of we're doing to Positively Prandi board, but in this case, acknowledging their credibility at the end of it, the weekly team meeting notes [...] really good [...] everybody's formats is the same, so we're looking at the same numbers, same things, and when it says, "Oh, that's so nice," they wrote the gardener a thank you note. They wrote the plumber a thank you note. They wrote [...] a thank you note for the inconvenience. We get a bunch of $5 Starbucks cards, we [...] and say, "Have a cup of coffee on us. Cheers to you." Just saying thank you is really nice. Jason: I love it. In our huddle, at the very end we just go around and ask each person, "Are you stuck on anything? Really simple, is there anything you're stuck on?" and there's always somebody that's stuck. When we didn't used to do that and we would just have a weekly meeting or just throughout the day, it makes me wonder what were they doing when they were stuck all of these previous times because there's always somebody stuck on something. "Oh yeah, this client had this question. I didn't know how to deal with this, or this." We can tackle those things really quickly and if it's something that takes a lot of time, we'll just say, "All right. Let's schedule a meeting for that." But we just tackle that in our huddle so everybody feels unstuck, which is also helpful. Melissa: It's not just stuck. I myself have made mistakes in this business, that we have aha moments as well. I can say, "Well, is there anything you want to share that you have an aha moment that you might teach us how to do our job better?" [...] offers I do like I'll start an example. I'll say, "Matt, my son, now is the Business Development Manager, who is out there in the field. Sometimes we get three, four, five, six clients a day," who knows how many are coming. They're coming fast and furious because we've been there a long time. He'll say, "Hey, can you take care of this duplex? The co-owner's called in and they really wanted a response today, but I got so many things on my plate. Can you handle that?" which is okay because I know how to do it. Only, he gave it to me at 10 in the morning and I didn't make that connection with that client until two in the afternoon and it was too late. He had already hired someone. I can use that as my team example as my aha moment. What I should have done the moment he gave it to me, I should have stopped, I should have looked at what is it important, not checking my Facebook, my email and everything else. I should have made that a priority. Because I didn't, he signed up with another management company. I want to share that as the owner because what will happen next time is I'll make it a priority. I try to [...] those aha moments and life lessons. What can we do, how can we have done it differently, and we had different results, because we can all [...]. Jason: We do a weekly team meeting. In our weekly team meeting, we share wins from the previous week, personal or business. That gives the team members opportunity each Monday to share, "What were your wins for last week?" so that we can point her out. As entrepreneurs, a lot of us are economically driven, so if we take a DISC profile and turn on all the insight, we'll see that we have a pretty high economic score typically. The mistake we make is that we assume everybody else likes money as much as us. Look at that economic score in your team members, those that are listening, if the economic score is high, bonuses work great for them. If the economic score is low, they want recognition. Most of my team members, that's all of my team members with the exception of people that are involved in sales, usually their economic score is low, which means they want recognition. So, creating opportunities in these meetings where they get to show what they've done the previous week, where they get to show that they've had wins and we look through our objectives for the week, and they get to say, "Yes, I got these all done," this is an opportunity for them to feel recognized by the whole team. I find that that increases motivation and accountability, significantly. Melissa: And I think it's interesting because you and I didn't rehearse this and we didn't talk about what was most important, but there's a lot of similarities in what we're doing as entrepreneurs, owners, and visionaries. I think that's really important for the audience to hear that some of these things that we're talking about are simple, and it can be done by anybody. Jason: What I've noticed in business and life is I'm just a student and a fan of what works. That's just what I get excited about. And really, every system, all the different coaches and mentors I've worked with, they so many similarities because truth and/or reality is what works and everything gravitates towards that. You've been in business for 37 years. You're going to have figured out a lot of things that don't work. What that leaves less on the table is a lot of knowledge about what works. I think also I'm very willing to fail. I've had lots and lots of failures. I think DoorGrow's been built on thousands of failures and that's how we learned. I think that goes also to my team because I've had so many failures. I think also I'm very conscious of the fact that my team needs to be allowed to screw up and fail. They need to feel safe failing. If they don't feel safe failing, then they'll never be able to learn. Melissa: Or they could hide it. We don't want them to hide it. Jason: Exactly. They become hiders. They start hiding stuff from you the first time they screw something up and they feel reprimanded or shamed or put down, they're going to hide that from you forever. They're going to hide everything in the future and then having team of hiders is absolutely catastrophic to the growth of the company. Melissa: That's true. I think that always attending workshops and now we have things online, you talk about being able to teach people like you're doing right now, that is great. I think just because you have 10 in the business or 20 years or in my case, you never stop learning. And I think it's really important for people to use their resources. I love to read. People can share books. They can go on your website and your Facebook page, and share a good book, and share stuff they're learning. I find that people soak it up. I love to speak and teach. I love to walk in a room and share my knowledge. There's not one person I've ever said, "No, I absolutely will not share that with you." I usually, "No problem. You want that form, let me send it to you." You're going to laugh, I taught a class in Palm Springs. I'm not paperless and I'm proud of it, because I'm not and people love it. They're going to be people that still touch things like I do. Let's give them [...] and eventually that does change. My son doesn't print [...] anything, but I do. So, we have to have a diversity and we have to be able to give people the tools they need to be the best whatever the way it is in the year 2019 or the way we used to do it. When I first got in business, the screen was literally the size of a small [...]. We didn't have cell phones. Technology is good. I think I've been able to travel, I've been able to leave my business. Now, I check my email but I schedule my time. I'm going to the beach because I'm sitting on a beach in Hawaii. I'll check my information but I don't check it like I do when I'm sitting on my desk working. Time management it important. I allow myself a lot of time because even last week, I was running hard. I was struggling early in the morning, facing the company, lots of meetings, going to Rotary, going to community events, starting the morning with my classes over at the university or whatever I'm doing, and I finish at nine o'clock at night. So, I just take it to Matt because I was going the State of the City Dinner with the Chamber of Commerce. By Thursday last week, I hit a wall and I was tired. So you have to find the balance. Everybody, not just the entrepreneur or owner, of how you're doing with your whole life balance because you have to keep yourself well in order to be a good leader. Jason: Absolutely. My recently added for our C hackers, a health secrets training, simply because I found that health is the number one thing that impacts the productivity. An excuse that we get from entrepreneurs a lot was, "Oh, I just don't have time." They have almost doubled the amount of time if they're taking care of themselves properly. Their brain is just that much more effective. Melissa: If you go to yoga for an hour, you're not on your phone, you're not on your email. Jason: You're right. You're disconnected. Melissa: You [...] can read the phone in your car. You just take your phone if you're going out in an easy hike, if you're going distance in that thing, but to be able to go and listen to music, too, on [...], people say sound and meditation. If you can do music meditation and it works really well. I just spent some time with a good friend in [...] and we had so much fun playing our playlist and singing the songs, and then how did we remember the words to this song? But your mind is doing so much. What music does is it kind of steals your heart and soul. If you ever are going through something, get yourself to music and let the music take you to a different [...] and property management. That happens a lot. I always tell my staff, "Get out from your desk, move or walk around the block, change your environment. Grab your iPhone, put on a song and walk around the block singing the words. It changes your whole intake of how you're going to treat the next customer or the next co-worker. Jason: I love it. Let's connect this to science and here is why that stuff is so effective. I'm a huge audiophile, I love music, I had a band in college, I bought [...] songs. I love music, but when you play instruments, when you play music—there's videos on this—your entire brain lights up. Both sides of the brain are like fireworks when you're playing an instrument or really engaged in music. When you connect your right and left hemispheres in your brain, when those sides of your brain are both firing, it significantly lower stress. In fact, I went and did EMDR therapy on the recommendation of my business coach, for a year. EMDR therapy is an eye movement therapy. The idea behind it is they use it to eliminate PTSD in soldiers and stuff like this. As entrepreneurs, my coach is saying, "You have some PTSD, Jason. Let's be honest. You guys deal with a lot of stress. You've got some of this. Go get an EMDR therapy and talk about you assistant, they quit or talk about this, get this stuff taken cared of. What is cool is that EMDR therapy is based on the idea that there is bilateral stimulation, so stimulating both sides of the brain back and forth while tuned in to an idea that causes stress or PTSD or some sort of issue. I'm not making light, by the way, of those who have legit PTSD, but the stress that we have as entrepreneurs, it will tone that down and it kills that. It helps you see it with a fresh perspective and helps correct and eliminate that emotional stress response. Here's what's magical about walking. Walking is bilateral stimulation. Exercising increases the stress response in the body. It just does. That's part of exercise. But walking oxygenates the body but does not increase the stress response. It actually lowers it because it's causing bilateral stimulation. Left, right, your body keeps moving, and each step causes bilateral stimulation. So, if you have anxiety, if you have a stressful call or whatever, going for a walk until that goes down is really magical and amazing. So I go for a walk in the evenings if I had a stressful day. I start my day usually a lot of times with a walk, making sure that I walk around. It help digestion, it seriously helps cognitive function by getting your brain to lower its stress response. It's like a serious hack and walking sounds so simple. Music more than any other thing can directly impact emotions. That's why in movies, they'll manipulate your emotions using the score of the movie because it makes you feel what's going on. So, if you want to change your feeling, you can use music because different songs can help you lean into sorrow if you need to feel that sorrow, music can help you lean into positivity or shift out of... Melissa: Brings back memories. But [...], somebody having a bad day because in property management we done have all positive days. And sometimes, especially because where we are now in Northern California, we had a lot of rain. [...] when we were getting ready to set up, it's not really our friend. Property management, rain, leaks, putting people up at hotels, you've got a lot coming at you and nobody wants to be displaced, especially if it's the holiday season, we have bad weather and it rains then. So, I [...] "Okay, what have you done for a time out? What are you doing? Because you need to go have a time out. Just go." We do fun Fridays, ice cream socials, aloha Fridays because we are actually [...] together in an office [...] downstairs, so we do see each other everyday. I may not but the staff works together [...] and works in an office. Having seen this which Christine's been really good about it. Matt, last Friday [...] his dog is a new rescue. She's adorable. Her name's Mia and she's a very [...]. She's a very good dog and he said, "Hey, do you mind if I bring her out in the open? I don't have any appointments." People actually brought some really [...] good, fun Friday and made them feel really good by having a dog there. Who knew? Jason: Almost like one of those service animals. Melissa: Yeah. I was waiting for his to say, "Mom, I can bring the dog to work because this is a service animal." I said it was okay. Jason: Yeah. I love the idea. Walk and talk is my own personal therapy. If I have something I need to talk through, I talk to somebody about it while I'm walking. I'll just walk around. It's magic. These are all really cool ideas. Melissa, it sounds like you have a phenomenal team. You've got a wealth of knowledge. For those that are listening, that maybe are struggling to achieve their growth, they're really stuck in a rut, they're having a difficult time maybe with their team, they're just having trouble seeing over the weeds, so to speak, what sort of advice would you give them, maybe a first step to take, some step towards all the [...] Melissa: I would say don't be afraid to [...]. Pick up the phone and call another property manager. Call you, check-in with you. People forget the touch of the voice, too, and someone knowing. Most people have been through the same thing. When you [...] the NARPM family or you or your users together share one thing that's going on, it's amazing when I see the post that goes on in your Facebook page and the solutions people are willing to offer. But sometimes picking up the phone and saying, "Look, I'm having a really hard time with this. I have a client doing it." I'll tell you to fire them. But if you have [...] a really hard time, then maybe you just need to [...] another professional. NARPM has over 5000 members. Don't think you're going to take the world on your own. If you're going to grow, you have to be willing to change, to be willing to have a mentor, somebody you can lean on. You got to use the research that you're offering as a national vendor and the research that you're offering, we have to use those resources so that we can actually learn to grow because you're going to give us tips from the outside of property management looking in at what we're doing. You're already doing that just sharing with me. So, if you're willing to make the change and to reach out for growth ideas and ask how to implement because I've already done it. I'm willing to share. Why reinvent the wheel? Jason: I love it. You mentioned be willing to change, find mentors, reach out and get a mentor, reach out to other property managers. I think the crux of all these things, kind of energetically that you're talking about here, underneath all of this, I think a property manager or anyone listening to the show, they need to recognize that the power being able to do these things come from vulnerability. It takes a certain amount of vulnerability as an entrepreneur to say, "I have a problem and I need support." Whether you are reaching out to a mentor, it takes humility or vulnerability in order to be willing to go out and learn more like you've talked about. I think sometimes we want to put on this facade or we think we need to be the one that we're always okay. I think it's okay to not be okay. I think there's power in that and I think there's connection in that if we're willing to be vulnerable, because I don't have all good days. I have sent messages to my business coach or my mentors and saying, "Hey, I'm really struggling. This is hard for me dealing with this." Sometimes, it's all we need is just to be able to tell somebody that and acknowledge and be vulnerable, but I think when we're vulnerable with others. Those that are inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group, I encourage you to be willing. Lots of people have been willing to share vulnerably like, "Hey, I'm dealing with the situation. I'm in over my head," or, "I don't know what to do with this," or, "I'm stressed out and it's been a really a rough day. What do you guys do or recommend?" or, "Could somebody talk to me on the phone today?" I think there are so many people that because the way we get momentum as entrepreneurs, the way we get fulfilled, is by giving it to others. Melissa: Helping others. That's right. I was national president of NARPM. My team was sharing a vision and I'm still sharing a vision. Our visions can open up a lot of doors and windows for a lot [...]. Jason: There's nothing that's been more powerful for me when I'm having a rough time in business or as an entrepreneur or in life than to reach out and be able to help or support a client or help somebody else. I look for those opportunities when I'm stressed [...] somebody an opportunity to support you because you're helping them by being vulnerable and allowing them to do that. Melissa: That works with our staff, our team members, to reach out and say, "Okay, I'm actually having a really hard time. I'm overwhelmed, I'm tired, I'm going to take [...] refill my bucket up. [...] keep that to your team. They're only human, they understand. Jason: Absolutely. That's the entire team's job. My team's job is to lower my pressure and noise. That is their whole purpose for having a job. But they can't do that unless I'm honest. Melissa: Yeah and it's working well. Jason: Yeah, it does. It works really well. The bigger my team gets, the bigger my company gets, the easier my life gets. I know that sounds backwards for a lot of people, especially those in the 200–400 doors sand trap because as they're approaching the 400–500 units, their life gets crazy and hectic and it's probably because they've built the team the wrong way. They built the system in which it's transactional leadership and they're throwing tasks at people. Everyone has to come to them for feedback instead of giving them objectives and trusting them. It's something that takes work to shift out of. Melissa: It goes back to where we started [...]. The key to success [...] Jason: Full circle. Get out of the way. Sometimes we can't see it. As entrepreneurs, I think no matter how evolved we are or how effective we are or how much coaching we've had, we always have our own blind spots and we always need that outside perspective. I need it all the time and your team can provide some of that if you ask them for honest feedback. I ask my team all the time like, "Hey, I'm thinking of sending this email out to all our clients," and my writer, Adam, who's very diplomatic, will say, "Let we reword that for you." Melissa: That's a good point. [...] I do that, too. If I'm about to send an email, or I end up firing a client or put them on a 'this isn't working,' someone else on your team to say, "How does it sound as if you're just receiving it?" That's it. That's a good point, too. Rely on that for that. Jason: This has been an awesome conversation. I'm sure we could talk for hours. It's just really fun to connect with you. I appreciate you coming on the show. What takeaway do you want to leave people with and how can they get in touch with you if you like them to do that? Melissa: I would say to rely on the vendors yourself. You light up when we started the very beginning of our just getting ready for the podcast. When you started getting ready to do this, to share with your listeners, you light up. I think we need to rely on our resource with you and what you can bring to us property managers. I think that the other takeaway would be to be really in-tune with ourselves to know when we've had enough to take that break, and then to really take a hard look and maybe today or tomorrow, go down and really be grateful, and come within gratitude to thank the people we work with everyday. Together, I would say we can make a difference. So, keep that attitude and really respect for your team, the clients, the people you work around. Jason: Love it. How can people find out more about Melissa Prandi or get in touch? Melissa: My email probably is best. I am an emailer. It's melissa@prandiprop.com. I'm great with [...] resources, I've written two books, and I love to share ideas. Let's just keep going. Let's keep growing and making our industry bigger, better, and more respected as we all become better at property management. Jason: Absolutely. I fully believe in the philosophy of the I mindset that the industry's number one challenge right now is not your competition. It's awareness. The industry's second number one challenge is just perception of the industry as a whole. By helping your local competitors level up, you're helping yourself. You're helping the whole industry. Melissa: Raising the bar up to what one's expecting the quality of what we're providing out there, people on rental property. Jason: Absolutely and good property management can change the world. You guys get to have such a massive ripple effect. You're impacting hundreds of thousands of tenants, homeowners and their families, and that ripple effect keeps going and that's big. Melissa: I've seen how much that actually NARPM complement people, how much we give back into our community because we do that every year at charity. We're giving back in more ways than just that. Jason: Absolutely. The ripple effect is big and I'm grateful that really awesome property managers like yourself allow me the opportunity to be part of that. That's inspiring and exciting for me. All right, Melissa. It's been great having you on the show and we'll have to have you back soon. Melissa: Absolutely. See you in NAPA, the [...] NARPM conference [...]. Jason: We'll see you in NAPA. All right. Melissa: See you soon. Thank you. Jason: Okay. Bye-bye. All right that was a phenomenal interview. Really fun to talk about that stuff, all things I'm very passionate about and Melissa is obviously very passionate about as well. If this episode was interesting or useful to you, please give us a feedback in iTunes if you're listening there. We would love if you like and subscribe to our channel on YouTube. That would be awesome if you're watching us there. If you're seeing this on Facebook, then share it. We appreciate you. Make sure you get inside of our awesome community for property management entrepreneurs, which is the DoorGrow Club. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com. By joining, we're going to give you some free takeaways including The Fee Bible, a list of good vendors you should be using, that are the best in the industry, that get the best feedback in our group, and we're going to give you some other free gifts if you provide your email when you sign up for that group. Make sure you get inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group. At some point, you may want to reach out to our team and talk to us or myself about growing your business. If you're feeling stagnant or stuck, or you feel like you could use some additional support, that's where we do at DoorGrow. Until next time, everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Delegating work, tracking progress, and managing issues often leads to frustration. So, businesses buy workflow software with all the bells and whistles; only to realize that it's too cumbersome and confusing. Today, I am talking with Vinay Patankar of Process Street. After experiencing similar pain with software, he decided to create his own simple way to manage recurring workflows for teams. You'll Learn... [02:40] Why isn't there software that can do these tasks while I sleep? [04:57] Philosophy behind process development and problem with most products - the people who built and designed them. [05:45] First-generation Software: The experience on paper is not necessarily the best experience on a computer. [06:15] Can my grandmother figure this out? Create easy and intuitive software that anyone can use without any kind of context or previous knowledge. [08:05] Process Street is not just a process documentation platform, but a superpower checklist for accountability. [11:17] Rules around Tasks: Customize checklist based on variables or conditions. [12:27] Create automations to do fast integrations with other systems. [15:50] Document processes to do it right, the first time; but not slow you down. [17:23] Process breaks down and people start doing it their way, but don't document or update their processes. [19:50] Track Changes: Capturing every change made to a process on the backend. [21:22] Process Street gets processes done faster and more accurately. [24:20] Everything becomes better; creates momentum, saves time, improves efficiency. [25:35] Process Street's Support Channels: General, sales, and engineering. [26:47] Catch-22: Struggling to manage team, keep things organized, maintain culture, document processes, and systemize business to grow and move forward. [28:24] Pre-made Process Templates: Tenant move in and move out, tenant screening, property inspection, and landlords. [29:09] What's your process? Share, copy, paste, and optimize processes. [30:25] Process Street down the road: Future features to include role-based assignments, task permissions, and mobile app. Tweetables User experience and ease should always be at the top of the list with software. Once you've got that checklist, you can superpower it. What's your process? Share, copy, paste, and optimize processes. Resources Process Street Microsoft SharePoint SAP Workflow Oracle Fusion Zapier Basecamp AppFolio Salesforce Typeform Gravity Forms Podio DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's very special guest, super excited about, head of a really cool software platform, Vinay Patankar. Welcome to the show. He is here representing Process Street. Vinay: Thank you, Jason. I'm excited to be here. Hey, everyone. Jason: Vinay, give everybody a little bit of background. How did Process Street come about? Let's start with you. What's your background in all of these? Vinay: Sure. My background is I've done a few things. I'm from Australia originally. I kind of worked in tech, worked in finance, work as a recruiter, started a couple of companies, and ended up on running a company that was a marketing agency. We're doing lead generation for consumer finance. Basically, driving leads for credit cards for Citigroup, and insurance for Geico and things like that. We basically had a very repetitive process where we were launching new campaigns on different ad networks. I'm running a lot of different tests, so maybe we're watching 20 or 30 different tests every day. At this point in time, we're working a lot with the new ad networks where maybe they hadn't released their API yet or essentially there wasn't much automation possible. A lot of that was being done manually. I had a team in India that was helping managing one of those campaigns. I basically had a lot of issues tracking all of that–delegating work, tracking that it was done, making sure that it was done correctly, getting visibility over the progress of all these tasks, which meant that I was staying up until 6:00 o'clock in the morning sometimes kind of working with my team in India and I got really frustrated. I was like, "Why isn't there a software that can just do these for me while I sleep?" That was the original pain that I was feeling. I knew that there were workflow products in the enterprise. I'd work with tools like Microsoft SharePoint, SAP Workflow, [...], and these very multi-million-dollar expensive products. I knew that they existed, and I understood, "Oh, yeah." You define a workflow then it's in a very controlled set of tracks. People just kind of follow it and execute it. This is how a lot of the really big businesses that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands of people like manage their processes. I'm like, "Why isn't there a tool that does this that is as easy to use as Gmail." That was kind of the original spark. I just wanted it for my own team to use. We built it as an internal tool, initially, and got my own company on it. Then, started showing it to people and it was like, "It's so cool." We kind of eventually spun that as a product and that was the beginning. Essentially, just scratching my own itch. Jason: You still have the agency stuff? Vinay: No. That's long gone. Jason: Okay. Great. Originally, this was built to fill a real need in a real-world situation and a real-world scenario which a lot of times the challenge with software is that it's not. It's built on some theory or idea by some nerd. When it comes to practical reality, it's got too many clicks. It's not super user-friendly. It becomes really cumbersome and confusing, but it does everything. It's got all these features and bells and whistles. In developing this, what's the philosophy behind the process and how do you balance that? Vinay: For sure. Awesome question. The kind of thing that you just said is exactly the problem with most of the incumbent products in our space. The products I've mentioned before like SharePoint and SAP Workflow and this and that, that's the exact problem. They were designed by business process analysts, by Six Sigma specialists, that come from the process engineering department in IBM or something. I've gone to business school, I've done MBAs, have a very specialized understanding of how business processes were supposed to work, understand how design a flow diagrams, and essentially, took what they learned in the university and put it on a computer. It's like took what they've drawn in a piece of paper and put it on a computer. It's interesting. That's actually how a lot of first-generation software was built. It's like, "Let's take this thing we do offline and let's put it on a computer." The experience that you get on the paper is not necessarily the best experience that you have on a computer. You actually see that in a lot of products. The first-generation products were designed that way. My approach to it was user centric or basically, user first. The idea was we're not selling to people who have degrees and business information systems. We're selling to people that run property management companies or people that run a local restaurant, some of them runs a hotel, some of them runs a HR team or sales team or something. It's not necessarily people that have their specialize process department or enterprise. Our approach was what is going to be the easiest piece of software that we can make that people who have no education, no understanding, don't know what the processes is, don't know what the workflow is, never done any of that before in their life, or ever read anything about it, that they're going to be able to intuitively understand, pickup, and just use without requiring any kind of context or previous knowledge. That's the approach that we've been taking which is really this, "Can my grandmother figure this out?" kind of approach. Jason: Yeah. I think when it comes to anything complicated maybe for an eight-year-old or for grandma to do it, then there's resistance no matter who is doing it. If you're a high-functioning, quick-thinking, entrepreneur or you have a team member that English is the second language and they're overseas, regardless, it lubricates the process to have that ease. User experience and ease should always be at the top of the list with software. It's my number one qualifier for looking software, "Will my team actually use it? Will it be easy for them? How quick they adapt it?" Because adaption for software is one of the biggest challenges getting a team to actually use it. Vinay: Absolutely, yeah. Jason: Maybe you could explain what Process Street is for those that are listening because it's not just a process documentation platform which is great and awesome. There are platforms that are just for process documentation that are out there. When some people use their Google Drive to document processes, they put them all in documents and they've got screenshots and just texts. It's beyond that. It's got this benefit of being a checklist where there's accountability, there's a record, and there's history of the people actually using the process. It also is this workflow tool that can be directly integrated with your external tools through Zapier, third party systems. It can capture data instead of just be something that somebody refers to and looks at. It really does a lot of things. How would you describe Process Street to those that are just not familiar with it? Vinay: Yeah. It's tricky. We're almost in a new category here. The easiest way I explain it to normal people that don't know anything about processes or workflow or stuff like that. It's that we're a superpower checklist. You have a checklist. This is something that needs to get done. Some of that, we have a checklist we want to follow. In property management, you have a checklist for every time a tenant moves in or a tenant moves out. We have a checklist every time we sign up a new landlord. Essentially, these are all the things we have to do, and we want to make sure that we remember to do, or someone on our team remembers to do every time a tenant moves in, a tenant moves out. "Make sure you do a background check. Make sure you get the contract signed. Make sure they get the keys. Make sure that you inspect the property." And this and that, right? It sounds simple. It's a simple way of explaining it. But then once, you have that checklist and you can build a checklist really fast–as fast as you can, just typing out a list of stuff in excel, or doc, or whatever. But then once you've got that checklist, you can superpower it. This is where the superpower is coming. You can have each of those steps and you can say, "Make sure the tenants get their keys." Inside that, you can have instructions. You can have, "This is where the keys are located. The keys are numbered this way." Once you've given them the key, go into here, fill-up this form, and make sure you got the tenant to sign in this book that they've received the keys and take photo of the book or something. Again, in each of these tasks, I can add in instructions on how to do the tasks. As you've mentioned before, you can add in form fields to actually collect data along the way. If you have a step that's like, "Collect the tenant's information." You can type in the field, what's the tenants name, what's their address, what's the address of the house, and things like that. You can catalogue all their information that kind of turns similar to submitting a form or filling up a spreadsheet where you get all of that data in a tabular form, you can use that in the future for automations as we talked about. You can control rules around the tasks. Now, I have a checklist inside each task. I have different steps. I can have content. I can have form fields inside those steps. Now, I can start to create rules around tasks. Now I can say that, if it's an apartment building, add these tasks for, "Have a building key." If it's a house, hide that task for, "give building key." I can customize this checklist based on variables or conditions that are happening in the scenario. For example, is it a house or is it an apartment? Is it in suburb A or suburb B? Maybe there's a different agent or something else that has to happen based on that scenario. I can add handoff. I can say, "Wait until John collects the keys and then assign Brandy to go and call the landlord or return the keys." I can handoff steps. I can say when somebody needs to do something kind of handoff. I can create automations and due dates. I can say, "This task is due two days after the keys are given." Or, "This task is due three days before the staging date." Or, "This task is due two days after the staging date." I can start to create all these automations and controls around how the tasks work when they're ordered, automating when they become due related to other various events, handing off between different people in the team and stuff like that. I can create lots of automations and other systems from that data as well. For example, if somebody sent you an email, that's like, "Oh, I'm interested in your property." You can have that trigger automatically run your checklist. Now, every time I add a tag on this email, it runs the checklist automatically and copies all the details of the email into this checklist so that when I'm running through it, I'd have it all day. If I change something in my CRM or in my rent management system, if a lease expiry comes up in rent manager, you can use that to trigger and automatically launch a checklist. You can then have data from your checklist pushing to other systems. If I know for example, the tenant's name, I've collected their name and their email, and the house address, I can take that data and I can put it into hello sign and I can generate a contract that automatically gets sent out for signature to that client. Once the signature is signed, it can come back and notify [...] triggers is actually a new feature in Zapier they just released which is find and update checklist. But now you don't even have to wait for that signature to come back and then pull back in the signed document, save it to the checklist, checkoff the task signed by the tenant and hand it off to somebody else in the team to do the next task. We start to do all sorts of fast integrations with other systems once you get all that set-up. Jason: Okay. I want to paint a picture for those listening. I use Process Street in my own business. I started using it because I'd seen a lot of property managers using it. A lot of property managers said, "Hey, this is really intuitive. It's very easy to use," so I started using it. What really pushed me over the edge is we used Basecamp internally as a communications system and platform which it is great at, but it really isn't good for repetitive processes. We have more process documentation scattered throughout several different Basecamp projects for different teams, indexed documents, we had some on Google Drive, and it just got really crazy. There wasn't a central repository to go to. Just changing that alone was a game changer for us. Having one place, "Oh, did you look in Process Street? It's in there. Everybody can go to that." What really pushed me over the edge though was I had spoken with a gentleman and I told you before this call, I remember his name, his name was Bob Abbott. Bob is a property manager. he was telling me how he runs his company. He's got his profit margin to 65% in his business by using Filipino labor and by using Process Street. He showed me how he uses it. We had some really cool conversations geeking out because we're both kind of nerdy. That's almost unheard of in the property management industry to create that sort of margin. It's very possible to do in property management because there's a lot of systemized things, there's a lot of repetitive things, and there's a lot of things where you need somebody manually to do stuff. You can give them the processes and the checklist to do it. One of the conversations we had which I think is an important balance to strike is, with my team, we want to document processes to the point where a beginner could do it the right way the first time. We also want to balance that with, we don't want it to slow them down once they know it. Just like driving a car. The very first time somebody drives a car, they're probably checking all their mirrors, adjusting their seat, and doing all this stuff. After they get used to that, they'll probably just hop in and drive. With us, with our team, we try to make our processes as few steps as possible, but as many as necessary to create that balance, so it doesn't get in the way when our experienced team members are trying to use it but to show record that they've done these tasks for this particular client or used this particular case or situation. What I've really noticed that's brilliant is that just by having a process that's actually used to do the process and your team is required to use the process to show record that they've done it, the process gets better overtime. What happens, I've noticed, in the business is I create a process document in the past, give it to a new team member, they would look at it and say, "Well, this is outdated." It always ends up being outdated because nobody's using it on a daily basis. Then, we have to fix it and adjust it, and then they learn how to use that. Once they get familiar with it, they never look at it anymore unless they forget something. What happens over time, the process breaks down. They'll start doing their own things. They start changing it. They figure out some innovations. They think innovations. Maybe it's worse, maybe it's better, but that isn't captured in the process. Then, if they quit or you lose them, our goal before they quit or leave, we've got them to update their processes because they weren't using it. There's this huge advantage, I've noticed, in just having the team use the actual process software that the processes in and going through each time. If there's a change that needs to be made, we can adjust it, they can adjust it, if I give them the permission to. We can improve it over time. Just the clarity in taking all of our processes in to where they're actually usable as a checklist is a huge step from having just the process you think is documented well enough to somebody actually being able to use it. It's a big leap and that leap has caused us to significantly change all of the processes that we brought over into it, so far. Vinay: That's awesome. What we find is that as you continue to iterate your processes over time, that's really when they become more valuable. I think that's normal for most systems. You can go look at the enterprise companies, their processes are some of their most valuable pieces of IP because they've been so refined over so many thousands of customers or years or whatever. They're now really, really valuable and they're kind of like protected secrets for that organization. Some cool things you can do, for example, if you have 10 checklists running and you're onboarding 10 different landlords, or you're moving in 10 different tenants, and you do want to make a change. One of your PMs comes back and says, "Hey, I noticed that this is incorrect," or "This needs to be clear if we do it this way." You could update the process and you can live pushout that update to all the 10 tenants. If you have 10 people in the field at the moment, even when we have no way of knowing, they can be in a car and by the time they get of their car, their house, and they open the process, it's got a new step in there. The steps change a little bit and now they'll just follow the adjusted step. You don't need to run a training program, don't need to send out an email, it's just kind of like, "Oh, the process is updated. Let's do it." On the backend, it's actually not exposed right now but on the backend, we're actually tracking all these changes for you. Every time you're making a change to one of your processes, we're capturing those changes in the backends' versions. We're working on dashboards that will let you see how the output of your process changes overtime as you iterate it. It's like, "Oh. It's taking us two weeks to onboard a landlord when we did version one of this. Now, it's a version 100. It's only taking us four days or something." You kind of see, as you continue to iterate your process over time, how they're improving or how they're affecting other metrics. That's pretty cool as well. One of the things we're really excited about, it's kind of a big part of the vision of the platform, is around what you said before where there are some processes where maybe you don't want to add extra work to somebody to their task. We definitely have a lot of processes like that. A good example is answering support tickets. We don't want somebody to run a checklist on every single support ticket that they're answering especially once they're in the roll after a while. They know how it works. But we do want them to do it for trainings. We want them to run that checklist for their reference or something as they're going through getting used to it. It's pretty important for us an our organization. We actually have everybody in the company do support when they come in. That's an example of what we just want people to run at the beginning. What we're really moving towards is we're trying to make our processes actually reduce the amount of time that it takes to get that process done. When you're using Process Street, it's actually less time to get that process done than if you were to not use the Process Street process. That's our ideal scenario. Not only is it faster for it to get done, but things got done more accurately; things got done in a higher detail way. A good example is we have a sales proposal processes where we send out a proposal for a price point for a set of users if we're working on enterprise deal. For the rep, basically, what they have to do is they have to come in to their CRM, click a link in the CRM which launches a process, then they've got to fill in a few pieces of info. From that, it pools in a lot of information automatically from the client. All the client's details are filled out automatically. They don't have to do any of that. They've got to put a few things like how many users do they want, what's the price that we agreed upon, or do they want a one-year deal or a two-year deal, kind of things like that. They basically just punch in a few things in the process, really quickly, just takes 20 seconds. That then hands-off automatically to their manager who then looks at the proposal and approves it inside Process Street. Once that's approved, it creates a whole kind of proposal with all these multiple checkboxes and things that can get signed. It will probably take you 30 minutes to set up if you're going to go through the whole thing yourself. It goes back and it updates the CRM. It creates opportunities and changes the statuses, the confidence, it makes the proposal sent, and puts in links to the proposal, and updates all this information whether the proposal is sent out. That whole thing, for a rep to do that manually, to go customize a Word doc, [...], mapping all the fields, sent it out, go to the CRM, update all these different fields in the CRM, and follow up tasks and all this stuff, it takes them 30 minutes or an hour or something. With the Process Street process, they can do it in less than a minute. We're actually working on trying to build processes that actually significantly make you faster and more accurate to use the platform than without. Obviously, it can't happen for every kind of process. You can't completely automate going to a house and inspecting it. There's a pretty manual aspect to that but for the ones that we can, that are very digital, we are trying to [...] as possible. Jason: Yeah. Sales people are notoriously known for not leaving good notes, not wanting to deal with software too much. Any burden you can take off their plate, software-wise, is a big win. You're saving money every single time. Vinay: For you though, as a business owner or as the team leader in sales, there's way more benefit than that. If you can shave off these minutes or hours off each of your reps like a week, it's just not a pure timesaving thing. They bill more so they would actually close more deals in that period of time. It creates more momentum for the whole team because the whole team bills more. The whole team saving time and building more which kind of creates this whole pause and momentum of like then you're able to hire better reps and you're more able to expand territories, this and that. Everything just becomes better. It's actually a pretty good lesson in most of your teams. If you can really get the operations piece tight; you can get your processes tight–your sales operations, your marketing operations, your support operations—it makes the whole team compounding much more efficient. It makes your whole organization much more attractive to other people because you don't want to come in to a place that's a whole giant mess where they just going to have to be spending all their time copying and pasting stuff and dealing with spreadsheets. You'll be able to hire much more high-quality people. You'll be able to execute a much larger amounts of projects and whatnot. It's just kind of all your infrastructures to sell it. Jason: Yeah. You've mentioned that you have everybody that come in and do support. Do you have your developers do support on a regular basis, so they have to live inside this tool and deal with support-related things? Vinay: Yeah. We have different support channels. We have general support, sales support, and engineering support. Engineering do kind of work in engineering support. It's generally more complicated problems versus how much does the product cost or things like that but they're generally dealing with a more complicated [...], something with the API or something like that. Yeah, they're in support as well. Jason: Interesting. Property managers that are listening, a lot of times, what ends up happening is there's two, I call them the first two sand traps. The first major sand trap of property manager falls into in the solopreneur stage, they get to maybe 50 or 60 units under management. They're doing it mostly on their own. They're struggling to figure things out. Then the first thing they think of doing is getting people like hiring people. People are so expensive. Having a tool like this could immediately allow them to outsource into offload and create some leverage in their business. Where it becomes even more necessary, I think for a tool like Process Street, is when you get into that 2-400 door category which is kind of the next sand trap that they fall into, this is where they've got a team now. They're struggling to manage this team, they're struggling to keep things organized, they're struggling to maintain some semblance of culture, and their big challenge right now is documentation. It's almost always a big challenge. They need to document their processes, they need to systemize the business, it's this huge constraint that's limiting their ability to grow and move forward. By then, it becomes critical for them to get something like this in place where they've got a really good processes, really good documentation, and really good clarity as a team as what's actually being done. Vinay: Yeah, absolutely. It's a bit of a Catch-22 situation because you've got more work going on when you're in that next level of business because you got more customers and more doors. You kind of feel like you've got less time to work in your processes, but your processes are more important at that point of the company. I think the point in your CRM or whatever is probably a similarly stressful project to undertake but once it's done, you're very happy to do it. You might feel that you're underwater right now, but that's probably a good sign that you need to work on some of the processes. If you're that underwater because you won't be able to scale that way. The other thing that we have that helps a lot with data is we have tons of templates. We actually create pre-made process templates. We've got a whole bunch in property management. We've got some generic ones around it. Some of those mentioned, tenants move in and move out, tenant screening, property inspection, and landlords. We also have some ones that are like, "Oh, this is how you do it if your system is AppFolio," or something like that. It's kind of like more generic ones and ones where you can kind of switch in and interacting with your different property management systems. That actually helps a lot if you do feel like you're really underwater, and you don't know where to start with your documentation, you don't have any time for this, "Come check out their offer." You come and check out all the different property management templates that we have and that's a really good starting point. Jason: Yeah. You can also share your process with other people. You can ask another property manager, "Hey, what's your process?" If they're using Process Street and they can share that with you, and you can immediately import it in your tool which is cool. It has a lot of really cool features. If you're on one of the higher plans, you can also do that context sensitive [..] statements. If a certain task is complete in a certain way, you can expose or hide certain other steps to make it faster or more hyper relevant to what needs to be done then. You can get as crazy with this as you want which I think is fascinating or you can be simple as just having a few steps with the couple screenshots and some texts. Immediately, I think, anybody could take whatever processes they currently have, bring it over, copy, and paste it in. Then, they can start optimizing it. I've even taken just checklist in a text document of steps, you can just paste that in and it spits it out as each separate step. It really is a rapid tool for getting processes built out. It's been a game changer for those that have implemented it especially those that just didn't have anything. It's a huge leap, huge step up. What's on the horizon for Process Street? What else do you think those that are managing property should know about Process Street? Vinay: A couple of things we have coming up is, one thing that I know a lot of our property management customers are excited about, we have hundreds and hundreds–I don't even know how many–of property management companies all the way from single person operators up to we have big teams in [...] and Keller Williams and stuff like that. We do work with a lot of property management companies. One of the ones that they're really excited about is a feature called role-based assignments. Right now, you can predefine on a checklist who needs to do what. You can say, "Either Bob in finance needs to do this collect payment task or the finance team needs to do this collect payment task." You can say, "The property management agent needs to do these four tasks at the beginning." But the way that it was right now is you could only indicate that this person has to do these four tasks. It gets a little bit tricky when you have a team of property managers. One property comes in, it needs to get assigned to Manager A. Another property comes in, it needs to get assigned to Manager B. Another one comes in gets assigned to property Manager C. You want to rotate your assignments, or you want to map who's the account manager on this and make sure that the correct account manager is assigned to that. We have now a feature called role assignments. At the beginning of the checklist, you kind of have a dropdown that says, "Who is the PM that is responsible for this account?" You can select that and that will automatically assign all the property management, PM-related tasks to that particular PM. You can maybe say like, "Who's their district manager? Who's their regional manager?" That will might assign some of the approval tasks to their particular manager for that PM that you selected. Instead of saying, "This task is always assigned to Bob." It's like, "This task is assigned to a property manager. I just don't know exactly which person on the team is going to be that. I'll assign it out later or I'll use the type of automation to assign that." For example, if I click this on Salesforce or I click this from one of my property management systems, I could look at who's the logged in user or who's the user that owns this account. I could automatically push in that email address into the process and automatically assign all those tasks to that particular person. Actually, a really cool one for this is, there's actually two cool features that just came out. Now, the features that came out is called task permissions. What task permissions do is it lets you control who can see specific tasks in the checklist. I have 10 tasks. I can say that, "Right now, anybody who comes into the checklist can see all the tasks in the checklist." I can say, "I want the property manager to see these five tasks. I want the manager to see these three tasks. I want the finance to see this one task." What's really cool is you can bring in the actual tenant or you can bring in the landlord as a guest into the system. It's like a free user that you can bring in. You can say, "I just want the landlord to see this one task at the top of these two tasks." It's like, "Fill in some form fields here, tell me your property, your address, and some information about when you want someone to come see you. Sign this contract here and then, done." Those two steps are exposed to the landlord. Then your team can come in afterwards, pick it up, and continue it out. "Let's do a background check on this person, a credit check, or whatever," and start doing internal steps. You now can break up the process and have external people, some internal people, an internal manager, all kind of working on the same process but not seeing all the information. It's kind of being siloed into their own tasks and things that they need to see. That's pretty cool for bringing in landlords or tenants if you need them to upload documents or complete any complicated set of forms. It's really useful. You can @ mention them, have conversations with them. You can reject their uploads and say, "Do it again. Do it again." A lot of these gets done over hundreds of emails back and forth, and they always seem to get lost. It's really cool managing that. Another big project we're working is the mobile app. I think a lot of people will like that too. Jason: Yeah. Very cool. I think a lot of the systems that we have that feed into the Process Street were using some sort of a third-party form like Typeform or Gravity Forms and then, we're feeding in in that. You're saying it'll be possible or even easier to have tenants or clients to submit things through... Vinay: Yeah. They could do that whole form into a task inside the process and just expose one task or two tasks to those clients. You wouldn't even use those external forms anymore. Jason: You want the client or the tenant to see, call the client up, and say these things because then it seems disingenuous. Vinay: Exactly. You could be doing an interview and you have notes on the interview and stuff like that. There's a lot of things where you want that wall of privacy. Someone can submit a leave application or an expense approval or something like that. You want to be able to have a conversation with HR or conversation with the manager just about the person who submitted it get seen. Jason: Yeah. I think in some way, if I create a process, if I put a video in there, I have checklist steps, there's so much clarity and transparency for my team to know how to get work done that they don't have to come to me. Any question, as an entrepreneur, that we get asked once by our team is going to be asked again. Unless, it's documented somewhere. Every single one of those interruptions cost you at least 50 minutes a time. Every single one of those interruptions may take, each time you're training somebody or bringing somebody new, if that's not systemized, it can take you hours. The only way to really move forward with the business is to create a business that is somehow scalable. In order to do that, the foundation is having some SOPs in place; having some Standard Operating Procedures, having some process documentation. I think the brilliance of Process Street is adding that layer of accountability in mixing it in a checklist, having people move through a process, and being able to see who has done what for that transparency. Is there anything else that people listening should now about Process Street before we wrap this up? Vinay: Just that it's free to check out and that you should go sign up for free account at www.process.st. Jason: Alright. Cool. Check out Process Street. It's process.st. Vinay, thanks for coming on the DoorGrow Show. Really great to have you here. Vinay: Absolutely. It's been great. Thanks for having me. Jason: Alright. Cool. For those of you that are listening, I do recommend you check Process Street. It is a really nice blend between ease and what's easy. I think it's a software that once you get into it, it's very intuitive, easy for people to figure it out, so don't be afraid. If you are a nerd, you really geek out on tech, and automation, I think it has plenty there to satisfy you. I think they're coming out with some cool new things that will give Podio, another system, a run for their money. That'll get a little too complicated for most people. Check that out. If you're a DoorGrow Hacker and you've enjoyed the show, make sure to like and subscribe if you're watching in YouTube. Make sure on iTunes that you give us a real review. We're going to appreciate that. Everybody listening, if you are a property management business owner and wants to grow your business, make sure you get inside our DoorGrow Club by going to doorgrowclub.com and join our free Facebook group and our awesome community. Again, thanks to Vinay. Thanks to everybody that's been checking out this show and listening. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.

Searching here, searching there...How do investors find rental properties that align with their financial goals? Is there a way to provide them access to these assets? Today, I am talking with Dan Ganguly, president of HomeUnion and founder of INVESTimate. As an entrepreneur, he's always looking for a new solution to an existing problem. So, if a realtor needs a feed for homeowners, a property manager needs a feed of investment properties to present to potential buyers. You'll Learn... [04:05] Questions for Investors: What's your budget? Risk preference? Age and stage in life? Do you need cash? [05:13] Two Brands Connected: HomeUnion's where investors search for properties; INVESTimate's where property managers and realtors work with investors. [06:30] Business Model Change: Internet-only to tool that increases engagement between property managers dealing with investors. [07:43] Where to Start: Build a relationship sooner than later in the sales cycle process. [09:00] Help property managers build better Websites as a front door for people. [13:53] What does the local property manager do? Signs up with service, pays monthly fee, and puts on private/white labels. [14:58] Realtor gets MLS feed for home buying; property manager gets MLS feed with intelligent filters and big data for investment buying. [15:15] Everybody knows their #1 prospect is their existing customer because they already know, like, and trust you. [16:12] Other Options: MLS, Zillow, and similar Websites focus on finding stuff (schools, pools, etc.) that get people into a neighborhood. [16:35] INVESTimate: Offers big data platform with 110 million properties, 20 years of transactions, 200,000 neighborhoods, and more than 9 million rentals. [19:30] Is everything 100% accurate? No. Property is highly individual. [20:15] INVESTimate: Investors get best of both worlds when making a transaction. [21:45] Different risk-reward gradients/categories help people make the right decision. [26:45] Feedback from Property Managers: How has this changed their business? [32:05] Bottom Line: Business owners make money, get a door, and much more. Tweetables It's a fish net to grab fish, and then we nurture the fish until they buy. Your #1 prospect is an existing customer because they already know, like, and trust you. We can't force them to buy, but give them a reason and product to buy. Bottom Line: Business owners make money and get a door. Resources HomeUnion INVESTimate MLS Zillow Realtor.com DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. And today, I have a very special guest. I'm hanging out here with Don Ganguly. Don is the CEO of Homeunion, is that correct? Don: Yeah. I'm the president of Homeunion and founder of Investimate. Jason: President and the founder of Investimate. Don, I want to welcome you to being here on the Door Grow Show. Don: I'm glad to be here. Jason: Don, you have an interesting background. You have a lot of experience in entrepreneurism, I think people would be really interested here some tidbits from you today, and some insights. I'm excited to get it into your business and service. But let's start with you. Can you give us a little background on you and just some of your experience and what lead you to where you are now in business? Don: Sure. I'm sort of a vocationally reformed engineer. This is my third company. The last one we did was actually an outsourcing service company for mortgage banks and services. We were actually helping originators doing the big boom and people [...] were getting a loan. When everything fell apart we were helping the services service those loans and try to keep people in their houses. We touched I think over $75 billion of service. That company ended up getting sold to Oracle, to a banking software company. But it was the progenitor to this whole Homeunion and Investimate thing that we founded because we were able to see all these properties all over the country that had some pretty decent prices and a good rental price ratio. When we looked at that, we figured there are all these homes that made good investments and people that live in the coast don't get access to these assets. We looked at that and said, "Is there a way that we could provide access to rental properties the way people buy stocks and bonds?" If you look at the way rental properties are bought, we base them a little how homes are bought. So people go to a listing site, they get a list of properties, they do some back and beyond below calculations, figure out the rent, go to the neighborhood, or pick up the neighborhood, call a realtor, and then bounce around and try to find the right property that they like. If you're look at an analog to that and say, "Hey, if you go to a wealth advisor and say, 'I've got this much money to invest, what should I buy?'" The wealth advisors are going to say, "Okay. I got some stocks, here's the idea, and here's the score, here's Apple, here's Facebook, which one of these do you think you want in your portfolio and let's go through a list." The question they ask you often is, "Hey, what's your budget? What's your risk preference? What's your age and state in life? Do you need cash?" And then they put a portfolio together that's got a little bit of this and a little bit of that and it all enlines to your financial goal. We took that playbook and we brought it to this Investimate product that we built which says, "We can ask investors the same type of questions about their real estate investments and then let the system go out and find the right assets and build them a portfolio or a set of assets that need those financial criteria." The non trivial exercise because to do that, we actually had to calibrate everything from a risk and reward stand point. Right? How risky is this house? And what's in that house type of thing. That's how we came to this. As an entrepreneur, you're always looking for a new solution to an existing problem. Often, the existing stakeholders don't have the answers. You got to think of something a little bit different. That's how we got into this business. Jason: Help us understand these two brands, how they're connected first and what they are. Just the overview. Don: No, I'm happy to. Homeunion used to be a retail platform where investors can come in and basically search for properties and invest. The first incarnation of Homeunion, we were actually serving as overall asset managers for these properties and then farming out the actual work to property managers on the ground. And then last year we made the call, it was becoming too big a business for us. We've done over 200 other transactions and we didn't want to be in property management. We ended up giving those properties out to the property managers that were managing it, productized it and provided it as a platform for property managers and realtors that are working with investors. The product itself has been tested for four and a half years, it'd done $200 million of transaction within 5% of forecast and a good use by investors to buy properties all around the country, highly exercised. What we just see is the business model from being an internet only model that brought consumers to my front door to a product that would then serve people like property managers who are actually dealing with investors day to day, giving them a tool to engage with their investors. That's the connection between the two. The Homeunion brand is an internal user of the investment product. So any leads that come in there are fed to our property management partners in various locations because we are not in the business. When we engage with that investor and they want to buy a property, then that property is managed by one of our partners. Both of them actually feed into the advantage of the property management tool. Jason: Let's take our typical listeners. We've got a property management business owner, they got a small business, maybe they've got 100-200 doors on their management. They're wanting to grow their business, they're trying to deal with team changes, and staffing, and operations, and trying to systemize things for the first time ever. And then we have these solutions available that they can use to support in bringing investors. Where would they start with your services? Don: Yes. If I look at businesses such as yours and others, you're helping them grow doors. How do you grow doors? You grow doors by finding more investors and having investors buying more doors, right? The property manager either at the bottom of the food chain which is that when the investors already bought that property, then they put their hand up and compete with four other property managers and say, "I'm the best guy in this market and you should come and put your property with me." Or they can be more proactive and go up the food channel and up that funnel and have a conversation with the investor when the investor starts looking for that property. Be early in the solutions process. What happened to them is if you're at that point in the fulcrum then you are actually able to participate in the property management process more naturally rather than doing it after the fact. Jason: If you're part of this process earlier in the sales cycle then they're going to have this relationship with you that's already set and you're by default mostly going to get the management contract. Don: You got it. Because you've been partnering with them ahead of time. At the same token, let me just take the other side of the coin there, the good work that you're doing and others are doing is that saying, "Okay, listen, you need to market your business in some fashion. You need to get traffic on your website. You need to put content up." There are various stakeholders that are helping property managers build better websites, you have a business in that, and a better front door for people to come in. When those people come in, then what do you have for them? That's where we come in. I'll give you a simple analog. If you're a realtor, what do you need? You need an idea speed to your local MLS. Otherwise you can't show any property. When a company comes in and says, "Hey, I want to buy from you." If you have a website that doesn't show any properties or you don't have an ability to send that buyer of homes to buy then you can't participate. It's a minimum stake for a realtor. Jason: [...] tool. Don: If I am an "investor realtor" and that sort of property management, if I'm catering to investors then I need an ability to serve up investment properties or properties that are more likely to be good investment. Or put another way, I need to give you an investment lens through which to look at these properties so that you can then engage in buying a rental property through my system. If I don't have that then I'm back to the bottom of the food chain because I'm searching here, I'm searching there, I'm doing all of these. If a realtor needs a feed for homeowners, I think a property manager needs a feed of investment properties that it can present to its potential buyer, if the property manager wants to jump up the food chain. That's what Investimate provides. If you're a property manager in a particular market and we're in 15 or 16 markets around the country, we have real time connections to the local lifting services, what we would do is we would white label Investimate for your website so it would say, "ABC Property Manager" with your logo and your color on the front. When you use Door Grow or another service to drive investors to your website, then they come in and they have a way to search for rental properties in your patch or around the country, if you allow them to. Because you still get a referral fee for that and engage with you in that fashion. That's one part of it. The second part is if you look at the realtors and I go back to the home buying because everyone gets that business. If you go to the home buying end of the business, what happens? The realtors are all over that bill when it reels its head. When a home buyer says I want to buy, you have a short window in which to grab that person and about 20 realtors are all over it from leads, from various places. The name of the game and how quickly can I get that person. On the investment side, nobody wakes up and says, "I just have to buy rental property in the next 24 hours. Otherwise I'm going to have a hissy fit of some kind." That doesn't quite work that way. When people make that decision saying, "Hey, maybe I should be in real estate, I know a lot of wealth is built that way. I should be out of the stock market, or I've already bought two properties, I think it's time for me to buy another one. I got some excess cash." What they need is a steady dive of stuff that fits their preferences and in nurturing. It's very different from the home buying. The investment platform actually comes with a set of campaign management and a set of investor support services. When you're under Investimate, and you're a customer of ABC Property Management. So you come in and say I'm Jason. You register you start using the site, we call you and say, "Jason, we're investment support with ABC Property Management, we're here to help you use the system and help you understand what's in here." You get acclimatized with the system, you understand what it is, we get an idea of your preferences and the system also captures your preferences. Now, you've told me you like sci-fi movies or romcom and I now keep sending you scifi and romcom till one day you watch that movie, because that's how investors work. They drip feed them until they put their hand up and say, "That's probably interesting." Now I got to buy box. Once I get that buy box, then I call ABC Property Manager and say, "Hey, I've got Jason who's got X amount to invest. He's looking in Austin. This is sort of his buy box, this is the sort of the property he's looking for. Please help him out and do the local due diligence." We serve that lead up at that point. It's the website, it's a set of intelligence filter that connects to the local listing service, and it's a whole analytics lens that allows them to search like they would search with stocks and bonds. I can get more into the data side of it, it's much deeper than that. To answer your question what does that local property manager do? He signs up with the service, it's a small monthly fee, and he private labels it, white labels it on his website, and he's off to the races. The way we make money, really, most of it is from when there's a successful transaction. What we ask for them is to load whatever lead customers they have into that proprietary database that always stays there on and then these people as they come in, it's a fishnet to grab fish, and then we nurture those fish 'til they buy. It's a long term way to keep their brand in front of customers and leads and others. I'll tell you something that a lot of the property managers are working with, not only loading customers, they'll think, "Hey, here is a whole bunch of people we touched in the last five years. We didn't do business with them but we touched them in some fashion. I want those registered to me." And a lot of them wake up and are prospect of buying stuff. All because once you see the product then they'll say, "Yeah. I'm interested and I will use this to buy something." That's what we bring to the tables. What a realtor gets from a strict MLS feed for home buying, a property manager gets an MLS feed with a bunch of intelligent filters and big data for investment buying. That's what we're doing. Jason: I love the idea. Everybody listening knows or should know that their number one prospect is your existing customer. They already know you, trust you, and like you. You're already probably managing a property for them. They're one of the most likely to do business with you again, and if you have opportunities, a property's available and they're already investors, it would be a very easier thing to get them into an additional property. They're going to have a high level of trust with you. If you have this easy pull of properties that they could see and view and they're getting dripped, and they're getting notified, and they're in your funnel and system here, then eventually something is going to grab them. They're going to go, "Hey, this looks like a deal I could sink my teeth into. I'm going to go for this." For the skeptics that are listening, you've got the property managers that also do real estate and they've already got the MLS and they're like, "Wow, why don't I just put the MLS on." And they can just look for property, any property. Let's really clarify the difference between just having the MLS and having the Investimate tool. Don: Great question. The MLS or Zillow or Realtor.com or any of these sites, are geared towards you looking for school pools, stuff that gets you into a neighborhood to live in. What we did is we created a big data platform where we have 110 million properties, we have the entire US Housing Stock, we have 20 years of transactions. We have 200,000 neighborhoods, we have an initiative here with University of California where we collect over 9 million rentals all over the internet so we could put that into our model, and we do a couple of different things with it. We process over $200 billion of properties to bill them out. What we do with it is first thing we've done is we calibrated neighborhoods from A to D as a neighborhood investment grading. Think of this as a bond grading so the D is not, we're not in D neighborhood. C is not necessarily saying it's a bad neighborhood, it just says it's a neighborhood that's a little bit more volatile, you get in with the lower quantum of money, it's a high yield property, that neighborhood property isn't going to give you as much growth. But you can pull me a portfolio depending on what else you're trying to buy. An E neighborhood has a higher quantum of investment. It's a more expensive neighborhood, view is not going to be that great, and you are going to see a lot more growth. The question is should I buy Apple stock at $800 and buy five units of Apple stocks or should I buy something that's $50 and buy hundred units of it? Or should I do a little bit of both? We've given them a risk reward calibration so they can look at both of these things. Then we forecast, we have a model that estimates the rent. We have a rent valuation model, we have a cascade waterfall where we compare to [...] and a bunch of other things to say here's a range of the rent. We then estimate the price and see if it's above or below what we model the price to be at. Based on that we come up with a big range on their property. Then, we provide a con of rich neighborhood information on the renter. If you go to an investment, you'll see how much money do the renters make, what's the average income, how come they can afford the rent, where are the rents on this neighborhood, am I an outlier rent? Once my renter goes, "I'll never be able to fulfill it because I'm the only guy in that neighborhood where my renter's paying higher among everybody." There's a ton of good strategic data and there's price trends and rent trends on that neighborhood. When investors go in, it's a shame when you look at the stock. What's my risk in this stock? What's the previous growth has been? What's my dividend play? What had done historically? What is it expected to do? What other research can I get around it? It's that one place where all that information is encapsulated. The potential rental property buyers are doing what [...]. They're going to go to Zillow, find new property, we're doing a back of the napkin, going to a rental meter, finding the rent and then coming back, going to a realtor, looking at the neighborhood, they don't like it, go to another one. We put all of that into one piece on the back of big data. Like in many model, is everything 100% accurate? No. Property is highly individual. You and I may be living next door to each other and you've done a lot of great things in your property. You may be a little bit different than mine. How do we do that? The property manager solved that last mile problems. The model, the data helps them create a buy box, instead of guard rails, instead of neighborhood, it's a type of property. And then the property manager goes and then says, "Yes, the data is right on this one. The renter's exactly what we said." or "You know what, this property is gutted on the inside and it's not going to work." It's a combination of that site, of the platform, and the local property manager at the point of purchase. Investimate, you get the best of both in terms of making a transaction. Now, why is the property manager the best partner? Because he or she has to manage that property afterwards. They're not going to go in and say yeah, the rent's going to be $2,000, no problem. The moment it closes, then they come back and say the rent's $1,500, that's the beginning of the end as far as their whole credibility goes. All that big data is underlying the investment lens of [...], just going in that a little bit more. When we look at the MLS, we pull the listing services every 30 minutes. It's real time. We apply 50 to 60 different filters to pull stuff in. We exclude stuff. If they're common, if we don't like them, we exclude those things, exclude D neighborhood. There's a set of filters that go in, then we [...] the rich data, then there's a que where a set of eyeballs do a quality check. Then, it makes it into the platform. It's a highly curated investment focused platform that's available for the property manager to showcase to his or her client. Jason: Alright, that was a great explanation. Basically, what I'm hearing is this is like MLS. It includes all the MLS stuff but it's better. It includes more tools, more resources geared specifically towards the investor, and they're able to make decisions. This is maybe a random question but I'm really curious about these different gradients or different categorizations that you have of risk reward and how are people making this decision whether they want As or Ds? Don: It really depends on the risk profile, at the end of the day. If you go for a C property, when do you buy a Triple C bond? A Triple C bond is a high yield bond for sure, because it's not an A bond. But when you buy Triple C bond, you also know that there could be defaults, there could be things that wreck your returns. You're getting that high yield to compensate for the risk. When you buy a Triple A bond, it's more deterministic. In a higher end neighborhood, you've got rents that are not quite as high to the ratio of the property price, but you've got renters that tend to be more stable, that have been there longer period of time, and their homes tend to appreciate. But it requires more money to get in. It all depends in the investor's personal preferences, are they looking for money now, are they looking more to build a portfolio and after 15 years when it's all paid off that's [...]. Are they looking for growth where they wanna spin around and flip it in five years? That's a whole different discussion, they you go after more growth properties. You need at least five years for real estate before you cover all your transaction costs, or three plus years. It just totally depends on the investment and their requirements. They might buy some properties for cash flow, they might buy some for growth, and they might buy some that's in between. We hear investors say hey, I need cash flow, that's my number one determinant. Other investors might say I don't really need any money right now, but I wanna build up a portfolio that will grow and be safe. Others will say I need to cover my mortgage, and maybe make a little bit of money, then the balance in the middle, but I really need properties that are going to appreciate. I don't really care about cash flow, but I don't want to be out of pocket. Those decisions then drive the type of properties, neighborhoods, locations, cities they end up with. Jason: In your platform, curious, what do you see being the most popular for the investors that are typically using this with property managers in that categorization? Don: Where people buy, 40% is what I call the B neighborhoods, 40% are on the C neighborhoods which are the high yield neighborhoods, and 20% are the As. As are obviously more expensive, and your buy will shrink when you get to the A neighborhood. That's roughly what I see. Jason: Got it. This would obviously work for non-property managers that are using it. Maybe their intention is just to use and look at this for their own stuff, or to look for flips, or turnkeys, or different types of deals than just some sort of long term management situation. Don: It would work for realtors, any realtors that's dealing with investors, they are also using the platform. We've got a number of realtors that signed up. The realtor piece is a little bit different. I'd sell you a home and you're not going to buy another home from me for the next 7 to 10 years typically, I'm not going to come every year and sell you a home. Once I sell you a home, if I'm smart, I know you could be a potential investor. I say hey, if you're looking for rental properties now, here's a site that gives you local and national rental properties, and I'll help you out with it. For the realtor, it becomes a cross sell. For a property manager, it's an upsell, it's one more property or a new guy coming in. But for the realtor it's a cross sell to a customer or lead that already spent the money getting that customer or the lead. Now you say what else can I get out of their wallet? And this product does that. In terms of flippers, we're not really geared towards flippers. We're not showing the big distressed assets out there that you can find and rehab. The big thing for the flippers are rehab numbers. How much do I have to put into this property to actually make money on it? I'm buying it $40,000 on the market, I put $20,000 in it so I'm already in $20,000. I can make another $20,000 because I can sell it at market. That requires on the ground running around and understanding what those rehab cost. They can use the system to identify stuff, I'm sure. But at the end of the day, I think these are people driving around neighborhoods or trying to find distressed assets that need that. There's not an inordinate focus and people on that on that platform, just because our partners are not really chasing those types of deals. We need a partner on the ground for this, solving the last model. Any investor can come in and use it for sure. Jason: Property managers that are already working with you and using your system in doing this, what sort of changes or feedback or results have you been hearing from them? What are they noticing and how has this changed their business? Don: One thing a lot of them are noticing is that a lot of their customers or their leads are waking up and they are engaged in looking at properties. There's two, three things they're saying. One is they're making offers and new properties, in some cases they're selling properties to the system which helps the property manager get a listing. They get that listing, and if the investor is selling the property, they can get to keep the property management because it's a rental property that they're selling it as and they're not kicking out the renter going to a homeowner. I think a lot of people like that because there's no erosion or churn of their portfolio from that perspective. Jason: What's happening is even though properties are selling, which would normally turned into a property management business, they're able to retain the management contracts and keep the tenants in place. Don: That's right. Jason: Love it. Don: For those investors that are willing to do that, there's some that will want to sell in the open market for whatever reason. I think if we can increase the velocity of this, and as more and more people get connected to the investment network when you push something into that, it goes across, gets eyeballs everywhere. It may move a lot faster because the investment on the other end will want a rental property that's already rented with a track record of history from that property manager, because the property manager will be able to give us what's been happening in the last two or three years in performance on this property. That becomes a lot more attractive than to buy a new one and then do all this stuff to it. Jason: So this is a proven property, they're able to see that it's rent rolled effectively, and this extends the reach then of this ability far beyond what the local MLS would provide because investors would be out of state and beyond are able to see this opportunity. Don: And realtors are not that interested in selling rental properties to investors. The MLS and stuff like that, they get the least amount of attention from realtors. Putting it on this platform puts many more eyeballs. We get 120,000 users on the platform today. Remember, we've been at this for four years, four and a half years. As the assigning of these property managers, they're going into this. The [...] account is increasing dramatically month over month. Out of that, not everyone's a buyer today but big enough sample size there that people would look at it and say this is something I want to buy. And the more product you put in there, the better you are. Jason: Say they sign up, how easy is this to get connected into the website? Is it just some javascript code snippet that would be added to a page, or just some HTML like an iframe… Don: Good question. It's not iframe, it's a hyperlink linked with their subdomain that gets added to their website and we can put it right over… For example the DMI franchise is rolling this out to a lot of their franchisees. We spoke to their website company and made sure that the logos and the colors and all that was consistent in how they wanted the brand to look for all DMI franchises and put it out there so they have the same experience, it's stuff like that. It's not a massive task, it's a quick task of getting it up and running. They don't even need someone familiar with website development on their end to put it up. Jason: Fantastic. I would imagine besides that, they're able to feed in maybe their list of clientele, or how do they get clients using or into this system? Don: They send a file of their clients and their leads, and we separate the two. That gets loaded and tagged to them in the CRM for good. Anytime they do anything, they're forever tagged to them. We look at the clients one way, we look at the leads one way, and they get a mail from Jason at ABC Property Management saying hey, we just implemented this new tool, come check it out, here's all that it's got. A series of mails inviting them to come check out the tool, what's in it, and then we engage with them as investor support for Jason's property management company, help them utilize the tool. That's all branded to Jason, it's not branded to anything else, it's all branded to Jason. The backend calls are made to investment support to help them use the system, that's all Jason. Then, they start receiving some weekly properties that are hot in their particular market. If they put their hand up, we answer questions and take [...]. Jason: Great. The bottom line, everybody listening, that business owners are all thinking is this makes me money, right? They're getting the real estate deals, they're getting commissions on the real estate deals, anything else that I'm missing? Don: They get a door... Jason: And they get property management contracts. Don: Yup, and let's say for example we have property managers in California. A California property manager's customer wants to buy in Austin, so the Austin person then can get a referral from the California buyer because the California buyer is not finding something in the price range they want in California. One thing they always ask, our customers, is do you want to show only your market or do you want to show all markets? There's pros and cons to it. If you only show your market, then that investor can only buy in your market and that's all they get and you always get the door. The con is if they ever decide to buy somewhere else, they're not going to buy through you because you didn't show that. Or, you show all markets and then if they do decide to buy somewhere else, then you get a referral fee from that. By the same token, you get inbound traffic from someone else. That's the idea of that. But we give people that option, because we can show one, or two, or all. Most people tend to keep it fully open, but when you have people that say I don't want to show anything other than my city. We're okay with that as well, it's the business owner's choice. Jason: So this has other potential benefits of really setting up a referral network, getting some deals. Don: Yup. We've had situations where property managers just got a door, because somebody is buying a property. Then the person says they need a property manager, so then we get the door. Sometimes, they get the whole thing. If an investor wants to buy in their market, then they become the buyer's agent, obviously they give up a referral fee back into the system so others can get paid. They get the door and that commission. At the same token then, they refer someone, they get a fee from that person from the door and the commission; it works both ways. Jason: Alright. Don, this sounds fantastic. Is there any other common questions or things that you think people listening might be curious about related to this? And then how can they find out more? Don: I think one thing we had expectations on, this is a long term relationship with your investors. Let's say you've got 400 doors and 150 investors, the investors get exposed to it. It's not that okay. In 60 days, they all come in and say great, now that you've given me this, here are 10 properties that I'm going to buy. They will buy over time, but what's important is they are now much more connected with your brand and you start seeing deals happening with these investors when they decide to buy. We can't force them to buy, but we give them a reason to buy, and we give them a product to buy. That's the one thing. The second thing is we do need the property management person trained on the system. We have a training program and all of that. When we transfer that investor in the right time, they need to be able to use the system to find the next property and the next one if this one doesn't work out. Because ultimately, they're the one fulfilling that. A property management company sometimes has not been in the sales process, they've always been at the other end of the food chain. They've got to think that if they want to climb the food chain, they do need some competence and strive to be able to go and get that property and close the property with the investor. Although we're taking a lot of the analytical work in a way by systems giving them all of that. They get a very clear buy box, but they still need to fulfill that buy box. Jason: Let's wrap this up, how would people find out more about your Investimate product, and how would they demo this and learn more about the business, and how do they get started? Don: They would go to investimateroi.com, in there is a little video that talks about the product, an explanation of what it does for property managers and realtors, and an ability to set up an appointment for a demo. The best thing to do is always look at a demo. If they go there and they schedule a time, just like we're doing here, we'll get them on an online webinar and we'll take them through the product and explain what it does, and see if it's a fit for the business. It's simple enough, yeah. Jason: Fantastic. Don, this has been really interesting, really insightful. I think a lot of people's wills returning as they listen to this. I think that you'll probably be getting some demos of people checking it out. Don: Great, thank you. Jason: Thanks for being on the DoorGrow show. Don: Glad to be here. Jason: You can check that out at investimateroi.com. I appreciate Don being on the show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and make a difference, then make sure you check us out at doorgrow.com. If you want to join the most awesome community of property management entrepreneurs on the planet, we are hanging out inside the DoorGrow Club. It is a free Facebook group, you can go to doorgrowclub.com, make sure you join the group. We will see you next time on the DoorGrow Show. Until then, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.

Are you sure your kitchen table or big-screen TV will fit? If you're interested in renting or buying a specific property, there's a few steps to take before actually visiting it. Watch a virtual tour video and get pre-qualified. Today, I am talking with Michael Sanz of Neesh Property, which started in 2009 and has more than 650 doors. We discuss the benefits of automating property showings, including the opportunity to spend more time with people and to travel. Who wouldn't want to operate a property management business from beaches around the world? You'll Learn... [02:25] Purpose of Neesh Property: Holistic real estate that helps people buy, sell, rent, and arrange financing. [03:20] Same Startup Suffering: Michael struggled to start a business, grow new doors, and retain customers. [03:37] Identify and Prevent Problems: Michael controls and protects his business and simplifies his life through systemization and automation. [05:45] Workforce Reduction: Michael went from 18 to 1½ staff members and replaced them with property management software to save money. [07:58] Eliminate Office Space: Doesn't affect how you do business. [09:43] Competitive Advantage: Neesh Property closes deals and acquires new business by leasing properties quickly. [10:30] Retain Relationships: Be client-focused, not location-focused when managing properties. [12:40] Learn from Mistakes: Try and implement new things, which may or may not work completely; pivot when necessary. [14:29] What's the problem? Any problem, big or small, should be documented and automated to disappear. [16:10] Build Knowledge Base: Take time to make "how-to, what to do..." videos, recordings, and other visuals to help people understand processes/procedures. [21:05] Leverage People as Process: Create core team of people who are thinkers and decision-makers. [27:38] Virtual Tour Stats: Neesh Property gets over 85% of its real estate booked based on the virtual platform and averages 1.8 showings per property. [31:05] Good Tenants Gone Bad: Rather than giving best to the bad, give it to the best of everyone; mesh type of tenant to property. [50:55] Common Beginner Pitfall: You don't need to be cheaper than everybody else to get started and compete; change your value proposition. Tweetables Save Money: Replace staff members with property management software. Be client-focused, not location-focused. Meaningful Connections/Conversations: The rest just falls into place; it's all systems. Automation offers the opportunity to simplify your life and spend more time with people. Resources Neesh Property Michael Sanz on Facebook Ricoh 360 Camera Matterport: 3D Camera and Virtual Tour Platform Vieweet Skype Zoom Housecraft GatherKudos Oculus Rift DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. I am welcoming all the way from across the pond or even further maybe, Michael Sanz of Neesh Property Management. Michael, welcome to the show. Michael: Thank you very much for having me. Jason: I'm excited to have you. You're a really cool guy. I got to connect with you in the past in person, which was great to meet you in person, and you've done some really cool things. But before we get into some of that, and today's topic for those listening, is automating property showings. We're going to be talking about that. But before we get into that, why don't you give people a little bit of background on you and let everyone know why I think you're so awesome. Michael: Thanks for the introduction and thanks for having me at the conference in Missouri last year. It was amazing. Perfect. As Jason said, I'm Michael Sanz. I am from Australia, from Melbourne, and I have a company called Neesh Property Residential that has been going since 2009, has over 650 doors. I started how everybody else started out in real estate and started from zero, or how much people started, started from zero doors. I had a new relationship started at the time. Add the pressure and the stress of a new relationship coming into a new business, setting all that up. I started from the study nook in an apartment that I had. I had left a previous business. It was quite a successful business. Left the partnership at the time and I started Neesh Property. What was Neesh Property to me? It was a holistic real estate that help people buy property, sell property, rent property, and arrange the finance. It's holistic all under one roof. I had suffered the same problems everybody else has suffered from starting a business, trying to grow new doors, I guess retain business when people sell their properties or go to other agencies. I spent a lot of time methodically going through all the pros and cons of a property management business and I really started to systemize it, automate it, and not let the business control me from an early point, but how I could control my real estate business and what protections I could put in place to make sure that I could do some hyper growth, retain the customers that I had, and simplify life. A lot of people that know me would have say that I will operate Neesh Property from many beaches around the world. I would close down the company every Christmas time for two months. In real estate, people say, "That's unheard of. What about maintenance? What about all the problems?" But I identified all these problems and I've been out of able to do a lot of travel, and I've spend a lot of family time while automating the business. Jason, as you're talking about today, automating how I show properties and really break down that process meant that I could be in Missouri and show people property before I went on stage, after I went on stage, and successfully lease property without really having to do anything at all. Jason: This is wild. I think everybody listening goes, "Michael's some sort of crazy, weird robot. This is some magical impossible thing. Nobody else can do this." You're maybe some sort of savant or guru. But you started your business and from the beginning had this intention of systemizing things and keeping things off your plate to keep that space, and some people, their intentions and focus is very different. They build a business that's very difficult to manage and to run. Paint a picture. You've got 650 doors right now, I think you've said, right? Michael: I just sold a bulk of that and I've got Neesh Property. I've automated even more with a new portfolio, but that's for a whole other conversation. Jason: Help people understand your business logistically. How many team members do you have? I think this is where it really showcases how different your business is than most companies that are at a similar size. Michael: Sure. At a point with the business, we had about 18 staff members. We had acquired another smaller business, and we acquired their team, and we had an office. A lot of which goes against the grain having office to me. But when I acquired another business, I took the office and it had a receptionist, it had a business development person, it had an account, they had all these people there. I couldn't see, with total respect to their role, I couldn't see the purpose of it, so I knocked them down from 18 down to 1½ staff members. One full-time property manager and one part-time who did routines and edit some showings as required. Jason: Wait. So, you went from 18, bring on another company, and then you whittled that down to 1½ team members. Michael: Yeah, correct. I couldn't see the massive need to have all these people doing accounts when a lot of the property management software already did all the reconciliation. I was just having a bum on a seat to press a button to reconcile. I couldn't see the purpose of having a receptionist when there are people there who could answer the phone, so we put in a good IVR, a good voicemail system, and we educated. We identified that a lot of the calls that were coming in were from tenants either trying to report maintenance or [...] it was. Then we put in automated responses there, too, and if there's any business call, "Press one if you're a landlord, press two if it's new business," and then it would come through to my cell where I could answer and respond to it quite fast. Identifying the flow of calls, the type of calls that are coming through the office meant I no longer had to have a receptionist there. In Australia, the wages are quite high. We'd be paying someone $50,000–$60,000 to sit at a front desk, to greet people if they came in. We have also identified that as property change, people will less and less likely to come to an office. Tenants wouldn't necessarily walk into the office and let's say they did walk into the office, we would be there to greet them but no one was really walking in. Owners rarely walk into an office anymore because they could call you, they could video call you. We ended up getting rid of the office. We have spent from a big 250 square meter office place to a two-bedroom apartment, and guess what? It didn't affect how we did business, didn't affect us picking up new business, didn't affect us losing any business, and the world still spins. It's not chaos. For us identifying all these headaches we're able to see what mattered. If the team couldn't adapt to technology changes, video, virtual reality, automated IVR systems, and things like that, then there wasn't really a place in the business for them, respectfully. I actually have one property manager leave to go with a company where they still did paper condition reports because that's how she wanted to do them. Jason: Right. You're welcome to it. That's so funny. Okay, so this will make a lot of sense and I think you and I have both significant, nerdy, technological side to us. This stuff sounds obvious to me and maybe obvious to you, some people listening maybe not so obvious. If they have all these questions, "How would I do this? I would I do that?" It's scary. But if you make that your intention and your goal, you'll figure it out just like you figured out whatever you're doing now. One of your big competitive advantages now in closing deals and in acquiring new business is your ability to lease properties so rapidly. Paint this picture of how rapidly and how different your leasing process is, just to prime the pump here. Michael: To put it into another perspective—I know we touched on it previously—we were full suburbs. We manage properties in over 84 suburbs and we also have properties in two other states, which was Sydney and New South Wales in WA. WA is a four-hour plane ride and Sydney is 1½-hour plane ride from us. Now, we weren't insane, crazy totally. We only manage properties of the clients that we actually had on our book and we did that so that we could retain the relationship with them and we would appoint other local agents to help with open inspections or routine inspections, or things like that. And because I'm a frequent traveler, when I was in the area, I would pop in, say good day to the tenants, and just touch face that way, so the owners knew that they are getting full kind of service. In Victoria, it is very much managed by our office and again, we are client-focused and not location-focused, which was one of our main selling points and is quite attractive to landlords that we had. Because we also offered mortgage brokering, we really didn't do too many sales, we were mainly property management and then we offered mortgage brokering we saw the value in that. If it was [...] other agents that could help us do the menial tasks. It wasn't a headache for us, we didn't stress about it, but we covered a lot of space. You can imagine when properties come up for rent. It's cyclical because people [...] properties around at Christmas time, they go home to their families and their friends. We would have sometimes 10%–15% of the book would start to come up for rent and you can imagine the franticness of trying to get out all the inspections, deal with tenants, vacates, and all those headaches that came with it. Now, it's probably 11 where I started [...] this. This wouldn't be a problem with the spread of properties. As I sat down, I started writing down all the problems that I could have. Petrol, time on the road, who am I going to have, how many staff members I need to to do this if I'm going to have potential growth? How do I automate this? That was the biggest thing. How do I automate this? What if it's Christmas time and I want to go away on holiday? What am I going to do? The selfishness in me also came out because I still wanted to live and being an owner-operator. What would you do? I identified with myself that if I made mistakes, that was okay because being a business owner, if we don't try and implement the things we're looking, that ain't worth. But it doesn't mean that it's not going to work in its entirety. It might mean that you just need to pivot a little bit and change what you've been doing to give another go. I had to automate the whole thing and I started the journey. Jason: I'm hearing a process here and I think you've mentioned this twice now. For those listening, you may have caught on this but it sounds like you have this mental process that you go through probably constantly where you list out potential problems, and then you sit down and figure out what are the solutions, and then you have this intention throughout that whole process of, "How can I have vacations? How can I make sure that I don't have to always be doing it?" Which is a very different mindset than most ppl have. They're just figuring out, "How to do I keep the business running? How do I make sure that we don't drop the ball?" And you're like, "No. How can I," as you put it, "take Christmas and not have to work? How can I go on holiday and not have to do this, and it would still work?" That's a different problem to solve. As entrepreneurs, we're great at solving problems. But if we don't give ourselves the right problem to work on, our subconscious isn't going to work on it, our brains are not going to work on it, we're not going to find those solutions. We stop prematurely at something superficial and that's a whole level of depth to go beyond just making sure things work, it's making sure things work without you. Maybe just describe that. What do you actually do? Do you just pull out a piece of paper and you write all the problems? Michael: A big point when I had staff in the office is that if anyone reported any type of problem, big or small, it had to be written down. If an owner said, for example, "I can't reach you on your mobile phone." Or, "I don't understand the statement," just general questions. If someone doesn't understand the statement, what we did was we recorded what the landlord income statement meant. "This is your name, this is the date and everything." We do a video. We do a screenshare/screengrab video and in that was a link. If anyone asks anything about statement, it was there for them. It was in one of our FAQs. People could see it. All of a sudden, we didn't get all these calls. We worked out any problem in the business. Someone turned out in our office at 7:00 in the morning and said, "Why aren't you open?" We address those things, we have better signage on the front door, and then all of a sudden, all these problems that a business would have were just disappearing and it was automated. By using video, by using written text, by having window displays, just simple things, the business became automated. So much so that religiously we close before Christmas and we open up towards the end of January, so that everyone gets time off to spend time with their family. Jason: And everyone being your 1½ team members. Michael: When I had a lot of team members, they were loving it big time. If people want to go on holiday, they can go on holiday because the business can run. Jason: All right, so this is really cool. Basically, what you're talking about is you built a knowledge base of frequently asked questions and leveraged video screen shares, recordings, showing them how to do things so they visually could see, hear, and understand what needed to happen. As they would go through these and have these questions, or you send them a link to this frequently asked questions or in your knowledge base, or you send them this video, they would watch this video. The magic of video is they would feel like you're right there, walking them through it, tell them, they'd hear you, see you, they feel like you're taking care of them, and you're not even there. You did it one time and now, it can be used for 650 different people or however many clients ;that you have. They can go through it multiple times instead of just once because they may not remember. But they'll remember, "Oh, there's this thing I can go to to get it." Michael: Correct. A lot of the agents who I would speak to is on video. I don't have to speak to video where it takes time, I don't have enough time. A lot of the videos early on that I did [...] showing or like a routine inspection or open for inspection. I would just have the camera on a tripod and while I was waiting for people to come, I would do a video. "I'm at this property here. Look at this one," or, "This is a leaking tap. This is how we address it. This is what we do." Just small videos and I just built up content. I had the tenants any problems, what to do if it's raining. What to do if your hot water service breaks. What to do if your dog runs out to your next door neighbor. Just simple things I turned into a video so I didn't have to answer again and again. Again, this is like I've touched on before when people could call up and they address the problem or an issue or concern, we try to turn that into a video so that it was answered once, solved 100 times. Jason: The trick is that if you're going to have to answer ever, once, take note of it, then put it on your to-do list to make a video so you don't ever have to answer that again. Michael: Yeah. I think as business owners we need to give ourselves the emotional permission today to take the time, even if takes us half an hour to do it, so we bank up future time. That task is going to take us a 30-minute phone call or whatever it is, we spend 30 minutes recording it now, and you're going to have that conversation a hundred times, you just saved yourself 50 future hours and you could be doing other things. Jason: Absolutely. We have done the same thing with clients who go through our program. I used to coach them all directly, but shifting it into video content allowed me to make sure that I said the same thing and got the best information to each client, and it allowed them to watch it more than once. My memory is not so amazing that I could remember every single thing I've said to every single clients about every single topic and not miss something. But I could put it into content. If I get a bunch of questions, I can add more content. I think some people would say, "Jason," or, "Michael, you guys are really lazy." I think there's brilliance in that. I wouldn't call it laziness; I would call it, we don't like doing stupid stuff over and over. I mean, really simply, and that's really frustrating to have to do redundant work. But some people, they love that. They would just do the same thing everyday. They love doing that. That's not me. I would guess that that's not really you, either. You like being able to have freedom and not have to answer the same questions over and over and over again. Michael: That's the definition of insanity, isn't it? Doing the same thing over and over again, getting the same result. I can't understand doing the same thing over and over. I guess as business owners, we also get caught up in the really small things, and those small things we think become really important but they're not. I've got some VAs that do the really menial, small tasks that I don't even have to think about. Things that our software doesn't do that a VA would do. Get out of that mindset that you have to do these really small things because it's not important and when we identified that owners and tenants just want to get that problem resolved. If it needs to get escalated, then yeah of course, take it on. But the small things, they don't really care who answers, it's fine. As long as it's clear, their problem is solved, they can walk away happy, then they're good. Don't stress. Jason: So, part of this automation, you're leveraging technology, you're leveraging video, you're leveraging a database or knowledge base of frequently asked questions but also, you are leveraging people as process. You're bringing people almost in a position of almost operating software in some instances. And then you have a core team of people that actually are thinkers and decision-makers that's really small based on what you said. Let's get into then the topic at hand, which is automating property showing. How can those listening start to move towards automating property showings and what are the benefits you've seen by doing that? Let's get them excited about the why they should do this first. Michael: As a business owner, having staff members and having multiple properties that would come out open for inspection and also understanding that tenants are really demanding, they want to see the property, they would call you up and say, "Is it open now? Is somebody there now? Can I go now?" And then having a staff member get in the car, drive half an hour listening to music, speaking to their family and friends, doing whatever they want to do in the car, get to the property, wait for the tenant to turn up, show them the property, have them say, "Oh, yeah. It's nice. The walls really look like they did in the photos." Whatever it is, or they love it and again they'll buy for it. "Can you wait for my friend to turn up? My partner's on their way." All these headaches. They do the inspection and then they spend another half an hour driving back or getting lunch on the way, or however long it is. One time, okay, but if you replicate that, you've got 8, or 10, or 15 properties for rent at that time, that's a headache for any company because of all these inefficiencies on the road. I identified, "Okay. Well, what do we do?" My wife was working for a ticketing and event company based in San Diego. She was running it from Australia, it's the operations. We're in San Diego one time, I had this massive 3D 360 camera. I was going through all the theaters and from every seat there would be a 360 [...] so that people, when they go to buy a ticket, they could see their exact view of how they're going to see the stage. I was like, "Hang on. Why can't I do this in real estate? What's stopping me from doing [...]? This is so simple." The camera was huge. It was massive at the time. Even three months later, I couldn't find an actual camera to do it. What I was doing was going to the room and taking 100 shots everywhere and then stitching it together. For one image it was taking way too long. At Christmas time, I was in London, closed the business down, before virtual reality [...]. It can be done. I was walking up the high street in London and I just thought, "I need to find something simple, cheap, to get the job done, and save me more time." I just went on the phone, I looked at my phone, and I found a local supplier that had the Ricoh 360 camera. It has just been released. I went out and picked it up, and from that point in time, everything I did for real estate, for property had a 360 video. And went then into step two, and I made sure that all the rental properties had a normal video, just with a smartphone or SLR. From that moment on, when I brought the 360 camera, I really hit all our properties hard. Before I go with 360 virtual reality and video, a lot of people that I speak to, they go out and buy the camera, they'll do one tour which generally happens after the tenant has vacated and they've already had marketing for 4–6 weeks, they'll do the tour and they'll say, "You know what? Michael, I tried that. It's not for me. Didn't help me get a tenant. It was no good." That's the biggest feedback I had. That's cool. That's fine. But for me, I want to persevere. I made sure that every single property we came up for rent, had a 360 virtual tour. Also in the start, it didn't help with every single property because I had marketed without photos for four weeks prior, and I was able to find tenants thereabouts, most often than not. With the 360 virtual tours, it was the next time that it came up for rent. A tenant would give me notice to vacate. The day they gave me notice to vacate, the virtual tour went up on all the real estate platforms that are out there. We have the video and we have our photos which are okay. They're good, they're okay. But from day one, people could start to see the property without me having to worry about booking an open for inspection and the condition of the property is all boxed up, or the whole family's home or whatever excuse the tenant was, people could start to see the property. That started to change things. Just to reiterate, if you're starting off, you have a property that's coming up for rent, the tenant's moving out, you can do the 360 tour afterwards. You may not get the hyper result that you're expecting. Don't stress. Replicate it on every single property you've got and you will start to see massive change from the next time it's for rent and every time after that. Don't stress. Give it time. People fail because they give up straight away. Jason: And then each new door that you're getting on, you're going to do the virtual tour at the beginning so you'll have that moving forward. Michael: Correct. I got to the point where if a tenant gave notice to vacate, I went in there, and I do the 360 tour with all the furniture in there as it was. I didn't put that on publicly but I was able to show people with the tenant's permission, just give them a link, and remove the link after they see it afterwards. I wouldn't get it publicly on the real estate platforms but I would have the tour and I would give it to people. That changed everything, too. Tenants were okay with that because you can edit the 360 images to blur out photos in the wall and things like that. That was pretty good. I also just did on the iPhone walk-through videos that I could also comment on. I would take just photos, too. We had over 85% of our real estate booked on virtual platform. Can you imagine, Jason, having 85% of your business, that people can view the property without you having to worry about putting a lot box on, be physically attending the property, and having the issue of staff or even yourself going to have to show that property multiple times? To touch on that, we were averaging at 1.8 showings per property and I've got to cancel one showing per property on average. Jason: No kidding. Michael: Huge time savings. If you were to quantify that and you're breaking out 15 properties a month, let's say, that's like $150,000 saving in a year, of time and profit based on our letting fees. Our letting fees are small than American letting fees. It'd be significantly higher in America but for us, it's about $150,000 just the base saving in 15 properties a month. Jason: Oh, yeah. So, the cost savings compared to the cost of getting the digital cameras and maybe the little bit of work and labor that would take to get these virtual tours done and everything, it was an obvious no brainer, financially. Michael: Obviously, yeah. For me at the start, I would have spent a couple of thousand dollars, maybe more, trying to really solve it. I have a lot of cameras now, a lot of VR, a lot of 360 cameras, and I'm still using the same one that I bought years ago which was the Ricoh. But I'm trying to find the next camera that gives me more depth immersion like the Matterport but something that fits in my pocket. So, for me to do it, if it does not fit in my pocket, I'm not going to take it with me. The Ricoh fits in the pocket. I think it's $170 or something like that on Amazon. A tripod is $30 or $40 on Amazon. To host 22 platforms of the year is $20. The platform that I use is Vieweet It's one of the cheapest one out there. It's robust, it's simple, it's no frills. If you're an agency, you're just starting out, and you're looking for cheap ways to do 360 automated showings, $130 for the camera, $30 for the tripod, $20 a year to list 20 showings that you can put up and take down. A lot of people don't have more than 20 properties available all at once. Jason: It's called Vieweet? Michael: Yes. If you're in $200-$250 US, you can be up and running today to do these things. But just remember, you may not get that sprinkled dust straight away. It's something where you build that new catalog that does work. Results have been quite fast because I kept at it and you will, I can't say, you'll get the same if not similar results that I was getting because what it all sold for us—that's just kind of the odd part of things, Jason. Our property to more people around the world in different that [...] the property. Rather than having to rely on people to come into a lock box or view the property physically, they may not have been the best quality tenant. Rather than giving the best to the bad bunch, we're able to give it to the best of everyone. Anyone who wants to see it within the markets to high-end income, at least they could go to relocation consultants that were actually being paid by people to come into the country to show them properties. We were showing it to the people before they go to relocation agencies in the end. If they will apply, they would inquire, "Hi, Michael. I'm actually relocating from America or Europe. I'll be there next month, try to arrange a viewing." I'll send in the link. They view the property. They don't need to worry about looking at 10 properties when they get here. We can do the process, we can get them out of Skype or Zoom. At the end of the day, good tenants can go bad. Make sure you get landlord insurance if you can get that. We were so efficient with what we did and that's probably for another conversation, but we got rent arrears to 0%. Not only will we have to get the best tenants in the marketplace, we get the best tenants that could afford to pay rent and not have any arrears and it solved a massive problem for us too. We are probably at about I think 3½ of rent arrears sometimes because people, they're just lazy. By changing the type of tenants that we had, also made all the knock on effects that we had so that our arrears is 0% vacancy because we're able to work credibly with our leases to make sure that longer leases we had better type of tenants. We're also able to mesh the type of tenants to the property. For example, if we have an application that was someone 50 years plus as opposed to 18-25 year olds. An 18-25 year old would be more transient and they wouldn't stay on the property for a long period of time, maybe 12 months. But someone who's older is typically settling down, they don't want to be moving around everywhere. We have a bit of a tenant selection too. Jason: I realized it might be a little different in Australia than here though. Michael: Well, what we did inside the office, we can verbalize it to the people that apply. Jason: Got it. Michael: No one from Australia is watching this, yeah? No tenants that I had. Jason: Right. This all makes a lot of sense. You have 0% vacancy rate. You're renting out some of these places before they're even vacant because you're marketing them from the second there's a notice. You're getting people out of state or out of country that are able to look at it. I think it's brilliant that you've got partnerships you've created in alignment with relocation agencies and relocation agents. I think that's sharp. All of this sounds really fascinating and this is something that anybody can do. Michael: Anyone can do it. Even like staff members. You've got people who work for bosses, there's no reason why [...] to help automate your showing. If a virtual tour or a video, or someone contact you at 10:00 o'clock at night and you're this type of person that picks up the phone at 10:00 o'clock and tries to make a time, you can send them link that'll pre-qualify them. The good thing about UVR, it shows you the room, the whole room. They can be looking at the whole kitchen. They can be looking at the whole bathroom for so many times you go online and you just see a corner of the bathroom which shows the tiles, the toilet, the shower, and the bath. It eradicates all of that, it's gone. I think I showed you too, when we got to the actual property, the other headache was, I'm not sure if my table would fit, or the fridge might fit in the cavity so then we included an incorporated AR, so the augmented reality which was just another boat. With the AR, you can record the screen, so you can be at the property while it's taken and actually do a video recording of, "This is where your catch goes. This is where the fridge goes, and the TV goes," and put the furniture down. Then you can send that video to people too when they inquire about, "Will it fit a king sofa bed, or what size is the fridge cavity?" Because people are visual, mostly. Jason: How are you doing that? How are you putting in beds, virtual beds and things like this into a video? Michael: The app that I use is a free app. I love this stuff. It isn't going to cost anyone here. Housecraft. Now that's free augmented reality application. Jason: Housecraft, it sounds like witchcraft, it's like magic. Housecraft, okay. Michael: It is magic. Again, I have all these tools because they're objection handlers. I don't need to over complicate things because then it just starts making problems. These are free things that anyone can be using. Anyone can do anything that I've been doing. None of it is hard. It's just I have a better use of my time. Jason: Yeah. You're using Housecraft, you're using Vieweet, you've got your Ricoh camera, are there any other technological tools that help you automate the showing thing? Michael: Basically, how it would work for us was a tenant will give notice to vacate or we would have a brand new property come on. We would have the tour or take the tour. We would put that as a link on a description. A lot of the feedback I had from people around the world was, our property software, our showing software doesn't allow us to put a hyperlink in there. We just put it in the ads, we put it in the ad there too. We had every second photo for us was, "Did you know this property is in virtual reality? Make sure you click on the link in the description." When people are looking on their smart device, because most people are probably looking ad property searches from their mobiles, it's important that we could grab their attention with a nice bit of photo, grab their attention saying, "Hey, we've got a virtual tour, or a video, make sure you look at it and prequalify." Rather than coming to the property and saying it's for them. If someone did call and inquire the questions was, "Great. Have you seen the virtual tour?" If it was no, it's like, "Okay, here's the virtual tour," and they all had to see it. We would not go to a property unless the person had seen the virtual tour. Jason: Right. Virtual tour first and then if you've watched that and it's still a go, then we will show you the property. Michael: Correct. When we did that, when we went to the property, we knew that it was really just a case of them checking if there's a smell, just their general feel, their juju. It was basically they're going to apply for the property. Typically, if I went to the property, there's a 93% chance they got the property, and it was 96% that they would apply or they'd rent the property. Jason: Because the virtual tours have filtered out so much. Michael: Prequalified. Jason: Now, in the photos where you doing stuff like box brownie and like this kind of stuff or are we just getting photos? Michael: We change it to make sure that the header photo, the main photo in this sort of style—we'd have a blue sky, green grass—it was just a nice attractive image so that people would click on that, like a clickbait basically. It'll look nice, they click on it, and then the next image was the virtual tour. They knew that there was a virtual tour there and then there are the other photos. They were the only photos that were relevant like the way you actually see the room. If you couldn't see the room or it was cut off, we wouldn't show it, because the virtual tour was going to show the property in its entirety. This just meant that I would not put 20 photos up of a half-baked house when I can put three photos up, a virtual tour video, and a walkthrough video—far greater impact. That's why we're leasing properties four times faster than our competitors, and we were getting more than double the amount of views on all our properties according to realestate.com.au which is a massive property platform in Australia. What we were doing was, no major cost difference to competitors, but we were getting twice the people looking at our property, and four times faster with being leased. Jason: Michael, this sounds really incredible. Having all these stuff in place, it sounds really low cost, and it sounds like it actually saves you a ton of time, and a ton of money to get these things implemented. Now, what I love to do is connect this to how is this helping you grow your business. Obviously, it's reducing cost, it's reducing staff, but this sounds like a huge competitive advantage selling point when you're pitching to new owners to say, "We have zero vacancy rate. We're managing hundreds of properties…" which is unheard of in our industry, "…and we can we can get this thing taken care of and lease it out really rapidly. I've got the cameras on me, I'm ready to go. Let's do this." Michael: Correct. There's a lot of white noise and noise generally in property management. When you're going to a listing presentation, it runs based on the same topics. "We collect rent. We have low vacancy. We are fantastic. We have good systems." You can basically walk into a presentation and know verbatim what people are going to saying. If somebody inquired about renting out a property, they will get an email from me with our reviews, true statements, and things that we do differently. When I would go to the appraisal, I wouldn't actually bring anything other than a set of virtual reality goggles. For me, I didn't go in with a booklet. Everyone kind of expects you to walk in with a booklet and pamphlet like all your competitors do. But me, it's straight away, "Let's work on that trust that rapport with the owner." I would walk into the presentation, I put the virtual goggles down the table which is a gimmick, they're a gimmick, and then I put them on the table and then I say, "Mr. and Mrs. Landlord, so tell me, what do you love about your property? What are the tenants going to love about the property? What would you do differently to the property that tenants might also think that they wouldn't want changed?" I get them speaking about it. None of it is about my fees, none of it is about my service, none of it is about anything else about me, it's just about them. Then it gets to the point where, "I can totally see why people fall in love in this property and it's so important that we show people what this property actually offers. Here are a couple of ways that we can do that." Bear in mind, by the time they've already got to ask and called us, they've gone and seen our Google reviews. They've seen our social profile. They've already assessed us when they make the phone call. Jason: Sure. Michael: It's so important that you've got some social proof and some history there. If you're just starting out as an agent, get reviews, get some social proof because you really are fantastic. As people, we're fantastic, and there's so many great attributes. If you're starting fresh, you don't have to look fresh. Jason, you're helping build websites. You can make someone who's just starting out look as a major player in the marketplace. Jason: Absolutely. I tell potential clients, there's no reason why a company with zero doors or even five doors has to look any different than a company with a 1000 doors. They can have just as good a branding, just as good of a website, and we can help them with the reputation stuff. We have our service gatherkudos.com for those listening that you can check out, which helps you facilitate or lubricate I guess if you will, that process of getting more reviews from clients. Michael: There's no reason why you can't. "I don't have clients to get reviews." "I'm sure you've done business with people before and they can leave you reviews." That's all you need, just that momentum. From the time that we're meeting with them, they know a little bit about us. I'm not concerned about any other services because they all know that we collect rent, and we find tenants, and we manage maintenance, and we do all that stuff. It's going to the owners that we will love their property, and really focus on the things that they love also, and identify the weaknesses of the property too because it's important for us at the start the owners to acknowledge their property may have some shortcomings. They wouldn't have to have that awkward conversation later. The prospective tenants said that, "I like the pink wall in the kitchen." We get the owners to draw out what they think is needed in the start, and then it sets the time. Then I bring out the virtual goggles, and I say, "This is one way that people are really going to immerse themselves in your property from their own lounge room. We also had virtual goggles and Oculus Rift in our office, so when people came in and they want to get a rental list, we stop giving out paper and we would say, "What are you after? A three-bedroom, two-bedroom?" And give them the goggles, and show them a property. We have far greater success than coming in, picking up some paper in the office, leaving, throwing it in the bin later on for one property they might be interested in. We cut down on paper too, Jason. That was a pretty good experience. We went paperless. For new owners, they could say that we were focused on serving the customer, rather than they burdened with admin and just a slow death in a real estate office. We could show them some of the other tours we've done. We were doing drone work too Jason, where we would showcase the aerial view of the property in proximity to shops because that was another question that people would say, "Probably looks great, but what's it near?" In Australia, with Google maps, sometimes, they hadn't caught up, so the area would look like just massive farmland, but actually, they've built up a state with shopping malls, and freeways going through it. We take aerial shot, and show it from what it was near. With owners, I think, I was at 140 doors and 141 appraisals. Jason: You show up for these initial contacts at the property, or these appraisals, or whatever you're doing, and you would pull out virtual reality goggles, and set your camera there, and start describing what you do. Michael: Correct. Now, fast forward a few more years, we didn't have to go to the property anymore, because I had the virtual tours online, and people can see them, and it would tie on my websites, so people could see that too, and they got to the point where people would make an inquiry, and I will send them a video message. They're already seeing all the proof statements, and a video message to start the initial conversation. I didn't have to meet all these owners, I try to meet all the owners. Sometimes I make time for if they're interstate, they were overseas, whatever the reason. I found other ways to get inside the living room without being in their living room. You have the virtual tours, and then you get the video text messages, and a lot of people will say, "I'm too scared to do a video text message. What if I say the wrong thing?" I say, "It's easy, don't send it. Just do it again." Jason: Right, re-record it. Michael: If you're doing a video, you can edit it. If it's not live, edit. If it's live, I'd say laugh. So what? Make a mistake, we're human. I will make the same mistake speaking with you, as I would do on a video. Recapping on it, our process was, every property had to have a virtual tour. When I had the staff, they weren't happy going out and taking a virtual tour, because it would take them between 15 minutes to 30 minutes, maybe depending on how many rooms there were. It's a very fast process to take photos and then you just copy them on to the Vieweet platform, and you put the hyperlinks, the hotspots, and the tour is done. The tour might take you 45 minutes to do. For me, that's no problem at all, if it's a big one. If it's small one bedroom place, might take you five minutes to stitch it together. It just depends. The more you do it, the faster you become. Every property had the virtual tour, had the video, had some updated photos. It just meant that as a tenant, trying to select for the property, all the problems were answered. As an owner, we're now looking at other agents online who's going to rent out their property, they can take the methodical process of photo, virtual tour, application form. That's very simple process. We then are going to back it up with proof statements, like the rent is zero vacancy. All those other things that were important, because if you guys are doing an appraisal and start just reeling off everything you do, you're the same as everyone else, but if you can show proof statements, then it's 97% there. Jason: Love it. You can easily send a video introducing yourself, and you can send them link to a page of video testimonials from clients. If you can give them all the social proof, and you say, "Look at how we market the properties." Send them the link to your rental listings. "Here's an example. Here's a property similar to yours maybe." Suddenly, they can imagine all of it, they can see it, and it becomes real to them. This becomes this huge competitive advantage in this huge differentiator between you, and other property management companies, and then it's allowing you to close more deals. I would imagine it facilitates word-of-mouth, because people are going to talk about you because they're probably impressed. I would be impressive if somebody showed up with goggles, and camera, and show me tours, and sent me a video text message. I'd be like, "These guys are on top of things, and they're tech savvy, and they're going to take care of me out of the gate." Michael: I guess one of the great things is, I won't mention the exact pricing, but we were full fee. We weren't competing with, "But that agent is offering a cheaper fee," anymore. We're full fee, we're doing full leasing fee for management estate. In Australia, we can't charge as many fees as you can in America. I wish we could, but we were full fees. I was maximizing every potential fee that I could, so routine inspection fees, higher statement fees. We were full fees, we don't have to compete with someone. I remember when I started, Jason, and I'm trying to get traction, I sent out a thousand flyers to people and offered a low management fee to people for three months. I got one person out of the thousand that I sent out, that was great, because there were multiple referring client. But starting out, thinking that I have to charge something low, so that I can get in front of more people was one of the biggest crazy thoughts that I had at the very start. Jason: It's one of the most common beginner pitfalls is, "I need to be cheaper than everybody else to get started and to compete." Michael: Yeah. If I just realized back over 10 years ago that my value proposition had to change. Jason: Yeah. Michael: "Not with my fees but with my value proposition. How do I not complicate it? Now, I no longer have any other office. I work from a home office. I've restructured because I don't want to have physical staff. I've got VAs that do all the menial tasks. All the properties that we have are on the virtual platform. I've got no properties arranged at the moment. No rent arrears. Last year, I was abroad seven months of the year. I was in Turkey for two months, Indonesia for two months, in and out of America, or like interstate. I traveled a lot. This year, maybe four months of the year. If I get a new business, I will have someone go and do the virtual tool for me. I'll train a simple person who doesn't want to do anything else if I'm not around. I enjoy going to the properties and checking them out. I'm a bit of a property nerd, I like checking them out, seeing how we can add value and connecting. The most important thing for me as an agency was to make sure that we have meaningful conversations, getting rid of all the clutter and all the noise. Instead, we will focus on the good happy goals, the meaningful connections, making sure that we can add value to our customers and our clients. That was our end result, to have that meaningful connection. The rest just all falls into place, it's all systems. Jason: You didn't go into it thinking, "I just want to automate everything to the nines." Your core end goal was, "We want to have meaningful connections," and then, "I want to have freedom as I'm doing this," to just focus on that. Michael: Yeah. Automating it just allows the opportunity to spend more time with people. Jason: I love it. Michael: It wasn't to make it so easy that I could travel a lot. It just meant that I need to get better connections. I pick up properties from going overseas. So many Americans travel. I've been in Europe and picked up a new management system [...] abroad. It gives me that flexibility. Also, you get to actually get new systems. People do things differently, so go out and see how other people are doing things to make their businesses better and how can you implement it in your business. It's so important. Jason: Yeah. I think I heard a quote the other day that was, "Travel is the language of peace." The amount of tolerance, and learning, and growth that happens just from being in different environments and different cultures, I remember taking a trip to Israel and it just was so different than what I was used to in the US. Even the checkpoints where kids were holding machine guns. It was just all so different and it was just really eye opening. I've been in Mexico, very different. You've been exposed to so many different cultures. You get to really fill your soul with having this variety in life. I think that's part of why a lot of people are in property management. They love that unique variety. There's all these different unique challenges that come with it. There's all these unique opportunities to meet unique people. You really got to focus on the even best and highest portions of that by being able to treat that freedom. Michael: Don't be scared of doing anything. Don't be scared of making mistakes. Trial it. If it's not 360 for someone, if it's not video for someone. Go ahead and trial things and see how it can give you that freedom, but also to be able to engage with people, family, and friends. Imagine if you live in a suburb and you've got a sports club, a church, a local pub, or whatever you've got, all these meeting places but you never get to go there because you're so busy trying to do the admin. You're a local real estate agent and you're not even able to local. Flip that upside down. Imagine if you're a local real estate agent doing local things because you have all these other things automated and being done for you while you're networking, and meeting, and engaging with people in your area. Imagine for a second how different that looks. Jason: Yeah, I love it. I think, Michael, everybody listening has probably by now hopefully felt a little bit inspired that there's this possibility that you've painted for them that is probably for a lot of property manager still outside the current world view. I think that's exciting. I appreciate you coming on the show. How can people get in touch with you and what sort of take away would you want to leave them with? Michael: Well, if you've got any questions about anything we've spoken about today, just hit me up on Facebook and send me a message and I'll respond that way. It's probably the easiest way rather than giving you a cell number or an email, just go to Facebook, we can connect there. I'm on messenger, it's the simplest way. Again, I guess the constant message that we've been discussing today is try it; don't give up, try new things that may automate your business and give you more time tomorrow even though you're spending more time today to get it done. Jason: Perfect. This is an episode I will hope that people will listen to more than once. Michael, I appreciate you coming on the show. Michael: You're welcome. Jason: I think you gave a lot of value. I'm grateful to you. Thanks for being here and sharing so many ideas. Michael: Thank you. Jason: Alright, cool. That was really fun for me as a nerd to have Michael on. Message him through Facebook. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and make a difference, as I said in the intro, then you should be a part of our community. You would love it in there. Make sure you join the DoorGrow Club. You can get into that by going to doorgrowclub.com. Our Facebook group, there's really cool people in there like Michael, and there's just some phenomenal helpful property managers. People that buy into this vision that good property management can change the world. That what the industry needs here, especially in the US is collaboration over competition. These are people that are willing to collaborate, willing to help, willing to support you. Make sure you get inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group and check it out. If you join that group, if you apply and join that group, it's free, but you have to apply. We will give you some free gifts including a fee bible and some other really cool takeaways and gifts over the next few days after we welcome you to the group, just to welcome you aboard, part of our Facebook group. Check that out at doorgrowclub.com. Until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everybody.

The American dream no longer represents home ownership. Whether you're looking to rent or buy, everyone wants the same thing: A place they call, "home." Not a house, but a home. There is a difference. Today, I am talking with Chris Litster, CEO of Buildium, which helps property managers handle properties, leases, tenants, and units. Chris shares how property management firms should focus on customer service, relationships, and reputation. You'll Learn... [06:53] Service Oriented, Relationship Focused: Avoid treating residents, owners, or vendors adversarially, if you want to be a successful property management firm. [07:43] Millennial and Baby Boomer generations view home ownership as a burden. When things change, personally or professionally, they want to be able to move. [09:25] One reason to rent is to avoid dealing with and doing maintenance. Time is better spent focusing on other priorities. [11:19] Multiple generations want technology from property management companies to automate payments, submit maintenance request, and perform other tasks. [12:04] People demand a strong relationship with their property management "firm." Their moving away from using the term, "Landlord," because of the baggage it brings. [12:25] Property managers should make their language more friendly and appealing. [15:50] Property management firms should shift their mindset to be service-oriented and understanding to have stronger relationships and less resident turnover. [17:40] Property managers have a massive network and influence with owners, tenants, potential residents, and others. They can cause a ripple effect and change the world. [19:50] Every property manager says they're the only good ones. All others are terrible. A mindset of scarcity has been falsely created in the industry. [20:50] Low levels of awareness and perception impact a business's ability to grow. The industry needs collaboration over competition. [22:41] Buildium believes, knows, and has evidence that service orientation and relationships matter. [25:38] Core principle and goal of technology is to take care of customers and solve their problems efficiently. [28:53] Strategic vs. Tactical Timing: Expanding and growing a business takes time and effort. Automating processes gives you time to think strategically. [30:57] SEO Lottery Addiction: Spending revenue on SEO won't generate ROI. [37:21] Ladder of Autonomy: Companies that understand their business, customers, message, and differentiator are at the top level and benefit everyone involved. [38:43] Fundamental Funnel Basics: Brand, pricing, reputation, Website, sales process. Tweetables American dream no longer represents home ownership. Landlord Stereotype: Evil person who collects your rent, but doesn't take care of things. Low levels of awareness and perception impact a business's ability to grow. The industry needs collaboration over competition. Resources Chris Litster's Email Address Buildium All Property Management - a Buildium Company Constant Contact MailChimp DGS 3: Buildium's 2015 State of Property Management Report – Part 1 DGS 3: Buildium's 2015 State of Property Management Report – Part 2 National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) The Iceberg Report Google Ads DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: All right, we are live. Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today, I have a special guest. I am here hanging out with Chris Litster, the CEO of Buildium. Chris, welcome to the DoorGrow Show. Chris: Hey, Jason. How are you? Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. I'm just flabbergasted by that opening. The energy, I could already feel it. It's going to be a great hour. Jason: Yeah. I put quite a bit of thought into that little intro. Chris: It's great. It's fantastic. Jason: Yeah. We're pretty passionate about this and we want to champion a cause here. Chris, I'm really excited to have you on. I love to get a little bit of background on you and how you got connected to Buildium. Give us a little history here. Chris: Sure. I've been with Buildium now for just over a little bit of 2½ years. I have been in the SMB or the small- and medium-sized business market space for probably 15–20 years. I've been in tech for a lot longer than that. I was with IBM for a while, a couple of other tech companies, then I landed at Constant Contact in 2006. It was an email marketing firm for small businesses like MailChimp and a couple of other players in that space. I was with Constant Contact for 10 years, started with them, they're pretty small, and that when we grew them and scaled with a great team at Constant Contact. Ultimately, ended up selling them three years ago, selling Constant Contact. Took a year off to reacquaint myself with my wife and three boys. During that 10 years they have the short end of the stick as we're building Constant Contact. During that time off, I had the opportunity, through different acquaintances and such, to meet the former CEO and one of the founders of Buildium, Michael Monteiro, who I know that you had on this show. Michael, at that point, was interested in just talking with folks who had scaled companies before. Buildium was on the verge of that inflection point of really scaling and revenue growth was starting to really accelerate. Michael and the team at that time over the past 12 years or so, had grown Buildium to where it was. Now, because of our great product, great team, and great customers, we are ready to go to the next level. We started talking and it took three times of meeting each other. Finally, it was either he or maybe it was I who had said, "Hey, wait a minute. Do you want me here and did you say, 'Hey, would you want to join us?'" I wasn't really ready to jump back into the space yet but there's so many great things going on here at Buildium that I decided to. The fact that Buildium again was focused of small and medium business was something that really attracted me because this is where I get my passion from the small business folk. The fact that it was then focused on one vertical instead of hundreds, that being property management on the residential side, I jumped in. I joined a couple of years ago as the Chief Customer Officer and for that, I was responsible for sales, marketing, partners, support, and success. I did that for the next year, year-and-a-half or so. Around that time, Michael and I started talking about Michael looking to transition out of the CEO role. He's been the CEO since founding—that was 12 years or so—and we started talking. Last July, we went through the transition. I have now been the CEO since last July and I'm loving every minute of it. Jason: Cool and what's he up to now? Chris: Michael and Dimitris, our other founder, are both advisers here at Buildium. Dimitris has a couple of things going on but he's here a couple of days a week helping us out with some of the larger initiatives that we have going on. Michael's here a couple of days a week advising me, the rest of the exec team. They're both active board members for Buildium. It's just great having them both here because it just adds to that continuity, builds on the history. I can turn to him and say, "Hey, this customer that's been around for 10 years. How did we get them and what were the things that they were looking to do 10 years ago?" so that when I go and meet them, I know the history that they've had with Buildium and how we've helped them grow. Jason: Great. The topic that we had discussed or that we had down is homes, not houses. Let's get into that. What do you mean by homes, not houses? Chris: Great question. I'm sure, as many people know, Buildium is in the residential space, as far as helping property managers with our platform to manage their properties, manage their leases, tenants, and units. Also on the accounting side. We have 16,000 customers, we're managing on the platform about 1.8 million units, and through that, we have the ability to not only talk and speak with our customers in the residence, but also because of our partnership with NARPM and a few other things, we do a ton of research. We have most certainly seen over the past couple of years, this trend where the idea of the importance of relationships between the property management firm and their residents has really taken on a new and different light where relationships have become so important. As part of that, the realization that regardless of if you rent or if you buy a home, everyone is looking for the same thing. Even when you are a renter, you are actually looking for a place that you can call home. The idea of referring to this as a rental property or a rental unit, in the minds of the resident, they're really looking to understand and get that feeling of, "Hey, I'm going to call this home." Why are they doing that? Because frankly, there's many trends that are going on, both at, let's say, the millennial segment as well as in the upper segments of the baby boomers, where this idea of the American Dream where it used to represent home ownership no longer really stands for that. It's the whole idea of that, 'I just want to find a home.' By calling it a home and not a house, what we're trying to do is bring that idea of belonging and bring that idea of where can I put my roots down. Just for the fact that I didn't sign a mortgage and I have a rental agreement, doesn't mean that my aspirations are different somehow. Because of that, property management firms should really take that idea really as far down the road as they can and understand that they have to be service-oriented. They have to be relationship-focused. This idea sometimes of looking at residents or your owners or your vendors in somewhat of an adversarial way, is no longer something that you can do if you really want to be a successful 21st century property management firm. Jason: That makes a lot of sense. I think part of the challenge is that nowadays, millennials and the younger generation, a lot of them see home ownership as a burden. They see it as a tether in a lot of situations. We live in a day and age in which people can work from coffee shops, they can have freedom, they can travel, and jobs change. It's no longer the day and age where people will stay in the same career sometimes for just 20 years. When things are changing, they want to be able to move. I think also, one of the reasons I've always enjoyed renting was I didn't have to do the maintenance stuff. I do want to have to deal with that. I either have to hire a house manager to manage the property for me or have a property manager that helps manage those things for me. I don't want to have to deal with that. My time is far better spent on my business, with my family, those kind of things, and that's not just a priority for me. I don't have any sort of kick out of doing that stuff. Chris: Exactly and that's not only. So, 100% on the millennial side. The idea that even though they may only be a resident for a year or two years, again, they still want to have that strong feeling of being able to call this their home. The same thing, for different reasons, is on the baby boomer generation. Here we now have this generation who are quickly becoming empty nesters left, right, and center, and they now have really no more great use for the large house that they have in the suburbs. They have all this space, again to your point, they no longer want to have to clean in every week and they no longer want to maintain this beautiful house. So, what they're doing is actually selling their houses. We're seeing a big trend of, for example, there's a brand new neighborhood here in Boston that has just grown over the past decade or so called the Seaport. Many empty nesters are moving into the Seaport and renting. Actually, they're renting it with some of the leases are almost renting at will, a three-month lease, a half year lease, for the same reasons that you talked about. They want to now travel. They want to have that flexibility that, should they want to pick up and explore another part of the country or another country altogether, they don't want to be burdened, like you said, tethered down by the fact that they're carrying this mortgage. That is changing on the top end as well. The interesting thing that binds these two segments together, these two parts of our industry together, is they're both asking for technology. They're both asking for technology with their property management companies for automation of payments, understanding, "Hey, if I have burst pipe, I don't want to have to call but rather perhaps tell Alexa that there's a burst pipe or you log into the portal to put in there maintenance request. Even though many people look at millennials and baby boomers as quite different—in many cases they are—there's a huge intersection in the property management space that both of these segments share. The largest one that we're seeing, there's two. One, again is around technology and the other one is demanding a really strong relationship with their property management firm and actually moving away from even using the word 'landlord' because there's just so much baggage in that word. But saying, "My property management company," or, "My property manager," it really works to strike in the relationship that they're looking to have. Jason: Let's talk a little bit about the language then because I think that does matter. I think you're right. The word 'landlord' is always been displayed or the archetype of the landlord is this sort of evil person that you have to pay rent to and that doesn't take care of things. This is what you'll see in shows. They're often this great antagonist in virtually any show. Because we're talking about homes, not houses, what sort of language should a property manager be using? How should we be rephrasing this to make things a bit more tenant-friendly and shifting towards being more appealing towards residents? Chris: That's it. That last word you just used. We strain and really speak with our property management customers about the idea of resident versus tenant. There's just a deeper meaning around resident as opposed to lacking emotion the word tenant. As the title of what we're talking about here today, wherever you have that opportunity, use the word home as opposed to unit. Unit is so devoid of any emotion. Even if it's a rental apartment or even if it's a multifamily property, when you're talking with the residents, talk it in a sense of their home. And the idea of partnership. We talked about looking for a deeper relationship amongst all of the different constituents that our property management company works with. Instead of looking at it as us and them, you talk about the partnerships. The partnership that you have together with your vendors, the maintenance vendor or your service partners. The partnership that you have with your owner. So really, getting away from, again, that adversarial type of thing and being deliberate about using this language and taking the time to check yourself as a property management firm, to make sure that you're using that language that holds your constituents or your partners in, as opposed to setting up that wall between you and your resident, you and your vendor, or you and your owner. Jason: Got it. I've heard some property managers joke that calling your clients your owners has this psychological negative impact. If you call somebody your owner, they own you. You're like a slave to them. Chris: Yeah. You reminded me of another one. Definitely that idea of client versus owner, tenant versus resident, service partners instead of, "This is my landscaper or roofer." Jason: I like the idea of service partners instead of just vendors. The latter sounds pretty cold. All right, we've addressed several target audiences here that are connected to property management. Tenants instead of our residents, owners instead of our clients, vendors instead of service partners. Are there any other groups we're missing here? Chris: No. I think, yes, it's language but if you look at the property management firm itself, there's a mindset shift that needs to happen. It's that idea of being service-oriented and being understanding that if you get that service-orientation, you're going to have stronger relationships and you're going to then hopefully have residents who stay in your properties longer, so then not having to deal with your turnover expense, the constant ins and outs, and just building those bonds. Ultimately, again, building the language with that mind shift. We have customers that are just living into this idea. Not only are they growing, they start to get a reputation for this. We know in our space, word of mouth is so important that they're seeing people coming to them and saying, "Hey, I've heard that you really are doing something different and you really are looking to help with the service perspective. And on top of that, you're using some cool technology that helps build on the relationships." This idea of technology taking out the human factor is not what we're talking about. Being a technology vendor, some people are somewhat surprised to hear that. We look at technology being the enabler, to help firms become more efficient so that they then have the time to be able to focus on building these relationships, making sure they're service-oriented, and making sure frankly that they're differentiating themselves from everybody else in the pack. Jason: I think that's a really important distinction. Going back to what you're talking about, you're talking about with residents, with clients, service partners, you're talking about just in general being a more respectful company honoring other people, caring about other people. I really believe that property managers have a massive network. They have a massive ripple effect between all the owners, all the tenants, all the different people that they connect with, even potential residents, they are able to have quite a big influence. It can be a bunch of little micro interactions that are negative, and it can be lots of micro interactions that are positive. That little shift, even in language and little things. This is what gets me excited about our company, DoorGrow, and impact that we get to have through our clients. But I really believe that good property management can change the world. Chris: I completely believe that. I'm with you 100%. That's so great. Jason: So, good property management can change the world. Bad property management [...] industry and it can have a massive ripple effect either way. Chris: Well, think about this. To you're point, driving and if you're commuting somewhere, we know that property management firms love to have the banners, love to have the advertising, "This building is managed by so-and-so." If they have a bad reputation, people that are two, three, or four degrees away from that actual company, there's a good change that they know of that reputation. So, even though I'm not directly involved in XYZ property management firm, when I drive into Boston every morning, I know of folks, those that aren't even our customers, I know the reputation that they have. I think that's a good example of that ripple effect. They're always out there. You can't miss those banners. There's just this constant on of this advertising for these property management firms, that if they don't have that great reputation to back it up, like you said, it can impact them pretty directly. Jason: I think it's even bigger than that and I want everyone listening to realize this. A lot of property managers I talk to, they say, "Well, we started our company because there weren't any good companies in our market," or they tell me, "We're the only good ones. All the other ones are terrible." But everyone says that. What's interesting is I think some people have this mindset of scarcity that I think has been falsely created in this industry. In single family residential, according to Iceberg Group, we've got about 70% that are self-managing. There's tons of blue ocean, tons of available potential market share, and yet everybody's been fighting over the coldest, worst, most difficult leads. I think the thing to realize is that there really isn't scarcity right now in the US. There really is not and the thing that I really want listeners to pay attention to is that the companies that have bad reputations in your market are hurting your ability to grow your company because of that. The awareness level is low and the perception level is low. Those two things are impacting your ability to grow. I think what the industry needs right now is collaboration over competition. Collaboration allows you to feel safe helping your competitors. A rising tide raises all ships is sort of true but it sinks some because the tide is low in the industry as a whole. Some of those ships are not seaworthy and they'll sink. But I think if you can lift up the ones that are seaworthy, there's going to be a lot more business to go around. The ones that are at the top promoting the industry are going to be the ones that win. Anytime there's a new business category in the US, the person that builds the category instead of their own individual brand is the winner. Google built the category of internet search. Now we google everything. Whether you're on any other search engine, "I'm going to google it." Kleenex built the category of disposable paper facial tissue. Everyone was using handkerchiefs before that. So now, Kleenex is synonymous with any tissue. "Give me Kleenex." Property management has been held back, I believe, and has a huge opportunity to grow. It's been around for decades but the problem is the awareness level is on par with brand new industries. I don't even know of any other new industries that exist in the US that are as young in reputation, perception, and that sort of infancy other than maybe marijuana, vaping and these kind of things. Property management can be as big, I think, as the real estate industry. It has that potential. We barely scratched the surface. Chris: I completely agree. It's funny that you used the all the boats rising because we talk about that all the time here at Buildium. We talk about the idea that this industry is ripe for so many things as far as growth and a little bit of disruption, as far as technology adoption, and it's all for the idea of introducing the true human element into the industry. Further, this idea that everyone who really buys into that is then going to rise up because as you said, I think there's enough pie for everybody. It's really interesting when we're at either some of our meetups or we're at NARPM, there is a real camaraderie around those folks. You can almost tell those folks that have really been successful around this idea of understanding, it's the strength of relationships that count. Why? They're not threatened by the other property management firms because they know that their relationships are solid, that their residents, their clients, their service partners are going to stay with them, because they know the reason that they're going to stay with them. They don't mind talking with other PMCs because they know that they're solid in their business. What really working here to try to bring that element, obviously in addition to the technology. But there is a change that needs to happen and frankly, it's not just a, "Hey, we think you should change." What we're saying is, "We 100% believe, know, and have evidence that people who take this idea of service orientation, this idea of relationships matter, and using technology to get to those, we know it works." Again, 16,000 customers and we have so many of them that are successful, who have bought into that entire idea. What do they have? They have happy long-term residents, they have happy clients, and they have happy service partners that aren't going to go anywhere else because they know they're in it together. That's what we're looking to really continue to help and help the entire industry here, which is really exciting. To your point, there's an opportunity here that not too many industries have. We have seen research that says that the property management industry is the third highest industry in interaction with constituents, let's say, because they have to deal with residents, they have to deal with their clients. That idea of total interaction and ongoing interaction with people, it's the third highest. What are the other two? Hospitality and retail. That's pretty good company that they're in and hospitality and retail understand that relationships matter. Now, it's time for the third person or the third set in this industry to realize that. Jason: That's really an interesting little factoid right there. Let's go back to what you mentioned earlier. You're talking about tech enables you to spend more time on relationships. I think there is this mythical creature that everybody's chasing after that looks like this robot that will run their business for them. They can cut out relationships and they can have this business that runs itself. It could be super easy. I think when we chase that mythical creature, we end up chasing a pipe dream. It becomes really difficult and we alienate ourselves from our customer base. I think that's an important thing to point out what you've mentioned earlier. I love technology. I'm a total nerd, I love it, I love automation, I love geeking out on this stuff. But the whole goal of all of it, everyone needs to remember the core principle that it's about your customer. It's all about giving your customer more depth. I think instead of trying to hit more people, more superficially, more quickly, we need to figure out how to go more deep, more personal, and connect more with more people. If that becomes the focus, then we can leverage technology and automation to take care of the mundane, while we focus on the relationships and getting us personal and as deep as possible. I've noticed that a general rule I give to my team, that if any is a sticky or difficult communication, or situation, or somebody's not happy, we want to go as personal as possible. The most personal would be in person. Second most would be a video call like this. Third would be maybe a phone call. But it needs to be as personal as possible because it just calms the situation down, it makes things easier, and really that's what people want. People want to be taken cared of. A business only exist if it's serving somebody and if it's solving their problems and their pains. That's only the reason a business exist. You cut yourself off from the customer, you're really killing your ability to have a business. Chris: Right. Do you want to come and do our copywriting? You're hitting on every single thing that are just so fundamental to what we believe here at Buildium. The idea of using technology for technology's sake is a non-starter. The idea of using technology, as you talked about, to serve something and what we truly believe, after talking with our customers and understanding the industry, that using technology leads to the greater efficiency that offers you the ability to then spend your time where you can and where you should from an important business perspective. There are two things. The efficiency brings your ability to spend time with, again, your various partners or clients and your residents. So really, get to know them, to really understand them, to really interact with them because now you don't have to be chasing them for, let's say, the rent payment because that's automated. You don't have to be chasing them for understanding their tasks, their needs from a maintenance perspective because that's automated. Rather, what you need to talk with them about is, "Hey, am I meeting your expectations to help you build this home, this idea of a home?" "Hey, am I meeting your expectations as my client?" "Hey, how can we think of growing this business together?" That's the second part. The second part is how do I look to grow my business? If your goal as a property management firm is to continue to expand, that takes a lot of time. That takes a lot of effort. You really need to understand what type of properties you're really good at, what types of residents you really want to have, what type of clients you really want to get in business with. That's not something you can just do haphazardly. You have to work at it. You have to plan at it. If you're not focused on, as you said, those things that can be repeated and processes that can be automated, that gives you the time to really think of you business strategically to continue to help grow. You are, in a directed fashion, going after and driving how you want to grow your business, so you're growing your business and your business isn't growing in spite of you or growing at you. You're taking control of it and you're working in a methodical way now to grow your business and become more efficient. Jason: You mentioned something that stood out to me, talking about strategic timing. This is one of the first things we have clients do when they come aboard with us, is we have them do a time study to get really clear on how much strategic time they're spending in the business and how much tactical time. Usually, their strategic and tactical ratio is almost 99% tactical. It's like everything is completely tactical. You're just doing work in the business. You're handling emails. You're doing phone calls. You're dealing with your calendar. You're just working. Business can't grow if there isn't strategic time. Strategic time is the time you spend to focus on growth. If that doesn't exist, you won't be growing. I think another thing that's important to point out is you talked about how customer service and relationships really matters. One thing to point out that I think a lot of property managers listening, I talked to hundreds of property management business owners that they want to do good customer service. They want to be the good company. I don't think of of them wake up in the morning and say, "I want to be terrible to tenants, I want to be terrible to my owners, and fight terrible customer service." I think one of the big things holding them back is that the entire industry is addicted to the SEO lottery. The SEO lottery is a losing game for the majority but you get a few noisy winners that hit the jackpot. They tell everybody how they built their business and grew things, they get the top spot in Google, and everybody chases after this myth or this thing like they're playing the slot machine in Vegas. It's harmed the entire industry because if the company is spending their hard-earned revenue on SEO, pay-per-click, pay-per-lead, content marketing, social media marketing, and they're not getting an ROI, then the first thing to go is customer service. They're worst off than if they have just not spent the money in the first place because they didn't get an ROI. So, then the first thing to go is that customer service. They're not growing. There isn't growth. There isn't going to be customer service. So, if anybody's listening, shameless plug, talk to DoorGrow. We help people get out of that problem and then you can move. I find that when people solve that problem, the next thing they want to focus on is everything else. They want to focus on systems and processes, building a team, creating culture, focusing on the customer, and then they get in to making a difference. But when you're starving, you're not too focused on anybody else. I think there's a Chinese proverb that says, "Your own toothache is more important to you than a million people dying on the other side of the world," or something like that. Chris: I have not heard of that one. That's pretty interesting. Jason: I may have adapted it, but... Chris: I agree with you. I agree, let's say 99%, and the reason being is because we're also, as part of the growth aspect of what we offer and what the industry likes is that we do have the whole property management side of our business. However, I'm going to caveat with that, there is a massive impact of relationship and reputation in that side of the business as well. Why? Because you have prospective clients going to that side and going that that marketplace, and ultimately being exposed to local property management firms because they're interested in having a third party manage their properties for a myriad reasons as to why they no longer want to self-manage. There is a reputation and relationship aspect that plays into that exposure as well, because again, it goes back to the banners on the side of the building ad that I've talked about. When you are exposed to potentially these three, four, whatever other property management firms, if you have a good reputation, I will contend that that owner probably has heard about you. If you have a bad reputation, they've probably have heard about you as well and they immediately are going to discount you. If you have a good reputation and they see that, "Okay, this property management firm has said, 'Yes, I'm open to looking to get more greater properties under management,'" they're going to turn to that, one that they have a little inkling as far as, "Oh, yeah. I've heard that this is a good firm." I agree with you about the vast majority of what we've just talked about. However, reputation and relationships even matter in that space, too. What goes of value, of all the channels, it's not binary. It's not the idea of, "Oh, I can just," to your point, "focus on this execution aspect and not stuff over here," because this stuff over here is also going to matter in whatever marketing channel or marketing activity you use. Jason: Absolutely. If somebody shores up all the major league should exist in the sales pipeline all the way from awareness to closing a contract, then it makes sense absolutely to do different advertising methods, all probably management. But if you have a massive leak where you have this horrible reputation online, or your website doesn't create trust or convert or answer their core questions, or your pricing is off in your market, or your branding is off like they think you're a real estate company or something generic with properties or they're confused, there's a lot of potential pitfalls. If you have all those pitfalls, you can turn the spigot on full-blast and it's not going to work very well. If you have those things tight, you can squeeze blood from a stone and you can use allpropertymanagement.com, you can do SEO services and focus on that, maybe get more business. But you need to make sure that you end up foundation of it, like you said, is word of mouth and reputation. That's going to trump everything. It's like a clamp on the pipeline. You could have everything else in alignment but if you have really bad reputation, they're going to check you out. Even if your website's amazing, even if your advertising and copywriting are on point, they're going to go check you out because they want to feel safe. If you're a one-star company, they're going to feel a little bit nervous talking to you, and then you're going to have to figure out how to spin it. Like, "Oh, the tenants just hate us but the owners love us or something like that. Chris: This is something from a small business perspective that it's not only property management but it's everywhere. It's that idea and I think what you're saying is shoring up your business model before you pour a ton of gas on the top of what we call a funnel. I can't tell you the number of not only property management firms but owners from all different types of SMBs. When you start to talk with them and they want to do that top of funnel stuff, they want to do all of that because sometimes that's more attractive. It leaves a more sexy type of activities about growing your business. Then when you go, "Okay. Well, are you going to be able to keep that? Are you going to be able to get a response to that lead within a matter of minutes? Are you going to be able to service that prospect all the way through? And then are you going to be able to keep that prospect if they become a customer for a long time because you're all service?" That's when you start to see the whole, "No, I can't do that. No, I can't follow-up. I really don't understand that. I don't really have good service levels." It's very hard for folks to say, "Wow, that would be a waste of money, actually, to really expand my top of funnel work until I get," like you just said, "everything shored up." When that happens, you know it. For us here, we talk about the ladder of autonomy. It's kind of a 50s phrase but companies that are just existing or at the bottom of the ladder. Customers have this level of autonomy because they have all their you-know-what together, they understand their business, they understand their customers, they understand their message, they understand the differentiator, they're working on a completely different level than other folks in their industry, notably on the property management side. Our whole goal is to get everybody up to that top level on the ladder so everyone, again, we think will benefit from it, the ripples, the network effect that you talked about is going to be there. Who's going to benefit as well? Residents, clients, and service partners. Jason: Yeah and that's why at DoorGrow we shifted our focus just to help optimize that whole funnel so it makes sense. Once you have that dialed in, everything is more effective. [...] is more effective, Google Ads is more effective, everything becomes more effective when you take care of those things. I usually use the analogy, it's like trying to do bodybuilding and you're not eating food and sleeping but you take some really great supplements. Supplements are not going to cut it, but supplements can really help you get to the next level, probably, if you take care of the foundational basics. Dialing your brand, your pricing, your reputation, your website, your sales process, all these things that are in the funnel, these are the basics. These are [...] any business, like you said. Chris: It's [...], Jason. I love that that's your philosophy. It's so important. And also, everyone here at Buildium is going to be psyched that I said the word funnel a number of times because I talk about [...] company. Jason: I love the idea of a funnel. It's a great metaphor as well. Is there anything else we should discuss here on this idea of homes, not houses? If not, let's let you plug something. Chris: I think we covered it. Again, the idea of more and more over the years, we think it's going to become almost a requirement. Those folks that are grabbing on to it today, competition is there, things are hotter than ever, and it is not nice to have anymore. Other industries have been disrupted through this very same idea and now, we see evidence, we talk with our customers, we talk with general folks that aren't even our customers in the industry, and we really see this big wave coming. Luckily, it's also a cool time because the technology is there to enable the way to become more efficient through those processes that you talked about that are more on the just everyday ongoing type of things. Technology is there now to really allow this to happen. It is an exciting time. It's an exciting time to be a vendor, it's an exciting time to be a service provider in this space as you guys are, to see where it really goes. Just the whole property management industry is pretty hot right now and I just like to be a part of it. It's really exciting. Jason: Chris, it's been great having you on the show. I feel like we had a lot of synergy. I really like you. You strike me as a visionary entrepreneur, a decade building up Constant Contact, all this kind of stuff. Not every company is lead by a visionary. I always feel safer with a company that is led by a visionary entrepreneur. That's why I use T-Mobile, that's why I have Apple products. I feel like there's always been these visionaries at the helm of these companies. One thing I want to point out, to plug Buildium or make them look maybe even better, is we've been talking all about being focused on the customer, being focused on your customer, serving your customer. We've been talking about that for property management companies, but I'm getting the sense that this is how you and your company view dealing with your own constituents, your own customers, that you want to serve their needs, make a difference for them, and not just squeeze dollar out of them. Chris: 100%. Jason: And to that point, some companies are focused primarily, first and foremost, as to serve investors. There's a different focus there instead of serving their constituents. I think there's been a lot of talk about this and a lot of pain by people in some other property management software and it's really difficult to switch. So, maybe you can touch on that difference a little bit with Buildium and maybe you can tell us how does somebody switch this? Somebody listening might be like, "Hey, maybe I like this guy Chris. I'd rather have him at the helm where I'm tethering my whole business to." Chris: Yeah. I hope there's a lot of people that have that reaction. It is a core, foundational reality that we love here at Buildium. It's something that Michael and Dimitris started years ago. It's something that I 100% believe in. I think that's why Michael and I hit it off so well so quickly. It's actually the core essence of every single Buildium and there's more than 200 of us now that believes in. We do not believe that we're going to be a 100-year company who changes the face of property management if that's not at our core and it is. There's a reason why we believe that customer success and customer support is not a function in a company but it's everybody. There's also a reason to believe that we'll stay on the phone with customers for however long they need it. Again, property management on the accounting side is pretty involved. We're not talking about accountants. We will stay on the phone and we will ride out the basic T account and say, "Here's your debit, where's the credit?" and we will walk them through that. Why? Because it leads to that relationship and then it leads to that idea that our customers are going to stay with us longer, they're not going to think about jumping even if there's a cheaper price or less expensive offering, and they're going to tell their friends. Word of mouth in this space is so important as it is for our customers. It's so important for us. This is not corporate baloney that we're talking about. It is something that we talk at every single company meeting, we talk about every single functional meeting. We have people listening to our phone calls all the time. We have people out in the field, employees are out in the field meeting with customers. You got to fly to California? Go fly to California. It's going to pay off with the lifetime relationship that we end up with our customers. How can people switch and if they are interested in getting to know me? cmlitster@buildium.com. Just email me. We have our standard customer success or support line. It's on buildium.com. I have literally dozens, hundreds even, customers that I know personally, that the rest of my executive team, leadership team, and all of the Buildians. We know these customers. Just because we're 16,000 strong doesn't mean that you're just a number. We will be here for anything that you need. We just had customers up here the other day. We have a brand new office, which is great because we grew out of our other one and we spent the whole day with these customers just answering whatever questions in doing whatever we tend to do. It is a core element of what makes Buildium, Buildium and to your point, we 100% believe it. It sets us apart from the pack. It creates space between us and other folks. Frankly, we're only going to build on it and we're all going to make it better so that space is just going to get bigger and bigger. Again, thank you for the visionary aspect. I think also, other folks are focused on just the technology, all product. We have a very good to great product that already throws a ton of value at our customers, that is only continuing to get better. We're investing heavily in it but we're also investing heavily in the relationship side. It is something that we have the ability to continue to grow and make even stronger. It's not something that's going to go away as we continue to expand. I'll also say, we have investors, too, and those investors couldn't be more supportive of our vision, our mission, and the alignment we have around the idea that is the customer's first always. It makes my job easier from a board perspective because they're actually pushing me probably even more to make sure we don't lose that, which is fantastic. I will always be. A hundred years from now, I won't be here but I know the idea of customer's first and always at Buildium will be. Jason: Love it. Chris, really excited to connect, get to know you a little bit better, and hear a little more about Buildium. Chris: Thank you so much. Jason: And I appreciate you coming on the show. Where can people find Buildium? Chris: buildium.com and they can find me at cmlitster@buildium.com. Jason: Perfect. All right. Chris, thanks so much for coming out. Chris: Jason, I want to have you come out to Boston and see our nice new offices and spend some time with us. Jason: Yeah, you'll have to have me come out. I'll check it out. Chris: Love it. Jason: We'll hang out. Chris: Yeah. It will be great. Jason: We'll talk shop. All right. Cool, Chris. Thanks for coming on. Chris: Thanks. I'll talk to you. Jason: All right, great. It's great having Chris on. So, if you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, and you want to make a difference, and some of the things in the show hit a pain point for you, then make sure to reach out to DoorGrow. We would love to connect with you. We also have a really clear vision that we want to transform this industry and make a difference. It's not just hype for us. That's what gets me fired up and excited. The clients that are closest to me know that. That's why I do what I do. It's super rewarding and fun for me to hang out with other entrepreneurs. I really enjoyed doing this conversation with Chris. Make sure to check us out at DoorGrow. If you are not in our Facebook group and you want to be a part of a community where the tide is raising all the ships, make sure you get into the DoorGrow Club. Go to doorgrowclub.com. It's a Facebook group. It will redirect into Facebook. doorgrowclub.com and it is free but it's only for property management entrepreneurs. If you're an entrepreneur in this space, you're a business owner, you have a company, or you're looking to start one, make sure you join our group and start getting [...] in. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.

Managing people when you are not a people manager keeps most property management businesses within 0-200 doors. They can't scale beyond that without hiring a significant number of people. How can you shift to outsourcing to scale, save money, and improve business operations? Today, I am talking with Todd Breen of VirtuallyinCredible, which helps answer property management leasing calls every day through its experienced call center. Also, VirtuallyinCredible can hire virtual assistants (VAs) and customer service representatives (CSRs) with or without phone skills for you and your property management business. You'll Learn... [03:15] Outsourcing: Follow rules to get it right, and select best solution to avoid failure. [04:03] Outsource companies often find and hire virtual assistants (VAs) and other team members from foreign countries causing frustration instead of support . [06:00] Small businesses need an entrepreneur, people manager, and task-oriented employees. [07:43] People Manager Traits: They care for their staff and have strong coaching, communication, and development skills. [08:50] Avoid pitfall of a property management entrepreneur who manages a team, but shouldn't; they're nice people, but they're not making money or sales for the business. [12:30] Grow your management company by adding more doors and a people manager. [13:35] Entrepreneurs are sales-oriented, driven, and willing to do things others aren't; they start controlling everyone and everything, so they need "inspired staff." [16:25] Systems can make or break businesses; is your business systemized; and has it established and documented processes, policies, and systems? [20:14] HR should find, hire, and train employees; supervision is quality assurance. [21:38] Three Outsource Options: Hire your own VA directly; hire a VA reseller/recruiter; or select turnkey solution to hire VA for you. [27:54] Ask for and get good reviews by offering good service. [38:30] Don't underestimate or overestimate software; technology is another tool. besides outsourcing that creates leverage, and lowers operational and staffing costs. Tweetables Property management businesses can't scale, stay stale without hiring lots of people. Shift to outsourcing to scale, save money, and improve business operations. Outsourcing: Get it right by following rules and avoid failure by selecting a solution Lifeblood of Real Estate Business: Answer phone, get listing, rent/sell new listing Resources Todd Breen's Email VirtuallyinCredible HireSmartVAs GatherKudos SuperTenders Property Meld EZ Repair Hotline DGS 39: Property Management Outsourcing with Todd Breen DGS 43: How Virtually Incredible Can Help a Property Management Business Grow with Todd Breen DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive The online Windows XP simulator runs in a web browser and its operation imitates the operating system. You can use it to prank someone. Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, and expand your rent roll, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, expand the market, and help the best property managers win. If you enjoy this episode, do me a favor, open up iTunes, find the DoorGrowShow, subscribe, and then give us a real review. Thank you for helping us with that vision. I'm your host, property management growth hacker Jason Hull, the founder of OpenPotion, GatherKudos, ThunderLocal, and of course, DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, I have with me, the wise, experienced, property management guru, Todd Breen. Todd, welcome to the show. Todd: Thanks, Jason. It's awesome to be here. Jason: Todd, you are talking to us live right now from Manila, right? Todd: That's correct. I spend a few months a year here working with our team and been enjoying my time here, and getting a lot of work done. It's an honor to be on your show all the away from around the world. Jason: It's a tropical island though, right? Todd: It is. It's actually the cooler season right now, so it's similar to where I live in Florida. It's just a nice weather. Jason: Maybe there's a little bit of fun in it while you're there too. Todd: Yeah. I played golf today while you guys were sleeping. Jason: Yes, nice. Cool. Todd, today, we are going to be talking about outsourcing roles for small, medium, and large companies—perhaps there's some differences there—and connected to Virtually inCredible. Tell everybody, what is your thinking behind outsourcing in general. This is a topic that used to be taboo. It used to be a bad word. "Uh-oh, they're outsourcing. You're not using people in the US, you're like some sort of evil entrepreneur." I think the temperature shifted. Todd: It has. I first started outsourcing eight years ago in 2010. Back in those days, I got a lot of raised eyebrows and funny looks. Now, when people hear that we're outsourcing to the scale that we are, a lot of people are like, "Wow! That's awesome! How can I save some money and improve my business operations in the process?" It's really matured nicely. The topic today is about how to get it right if you're going to try and outsource, whether you're a small, medium, or large business. I'm really excited to share what I've learned in eight years of helping small, medium, and large businesses outsource. I've seen what's worked and what hasn't. In this, I'm just going to lay it out for you and say, "Hey, if you've tried and failed in the past, I can probably pinpoint how that happened." We'll do it in a very simple grid that I've made for you guys. If you're a first timer and you want to get it done right the first time, we're going to explain the rules for you and have what it takes to do it right and to pick the right outsourcing solution. Jason: Anyone that's listening to this show knows we've had a few different companies that help with like either VAs or outsourcing or finding assistants for things, and I've revealed multiple times, I've had my fair share of failures. I've had team members in India, Bolivia, Philippines. Right now, the bulk of my team are in the US because I've had so many struggles dealing with a lot of that. But we're now just now ourselves getting back into hiring and sourcing some talent in the Philippines to add greater support for my team and my staff. Our team has helped your team with some branding work and designing new logos, so check out Virtually inCredible's new shiny logo. I'm really liking it. We also helped out HireSmart VAs and have cleaned up their branding. It's been awesome getting familiar with people that are making a difference in the space of property management. You're also making a difference in the lives of people in the Philippines. Todd: I grew up in the real estate business. My dad was a very busy real estate broker, very successful, and he was working days, nights, and weekends, and he was always answering the phone. Because he couldn't afford not to answer the phone because the lifeblood of any real estate business is answer the phone, get a listing, answer the phone, rent or sell new listing. I have a real passion now with my four kids to give them a better quality of life as third generation property management company. They just look at me and say, "Dad, how did you do it before you could outsource your leasing lines or before you could have your own private virtual assistant that was full time helping you?" And I said, 'Yeah, it was a lot of hard work and now, it's a lot of smart work." Let me get into what the rules are so that the viewers will have an idea what it takes to get the right solution for you no matter what stage of business you're in. Is it alright with you if I share my screen? Jason: Yeah, you can share your screen. Just make sure you're talking through it because some people would just be hearing this. Todd: I'm sharing my screen, I'm going here, I'm hitting play, and tell me if you can see my slides. Jason: Yup, I see them. Todd: If you're a small business, you're all three of what a business needs. Because a business needs an entrepreneur that actually is the driving force behind the business, a people manager and task a score of people or employees that actually perform the tasks needed to get the job done in the business. Me, I'm an entrepreneur, always have been my whole life, and I struggled building my management company with one thing and that was managing my staff. I was pretty good at managing owners and tenants, but you don't work everyday, all day, eight hours a day with your homeowner and your tenant. You get intermittent relationships with them. You have to actually build a relationship with your team. Whether it's inhouse, whether it's onshore, whether it's offshore, if you can't manage people, then my aha moment was, "I needed a people manager." On this screen, I'm listing the things that a people manager needs. They're good at caring for their staff. Me, as an entrepreneur, that's not in my DNA. I'm not going to trouble you with my troubles and I appreciate it if won't trouble me with yours. Entrepreneurs are not the warm fuzzy people managers. People managers are good at coaching, communicating, development, they take an interest in the development of the staff. I've got a graphic on the screen, there's things that a people manager does. Number one, they know me. Number two, they focus on me and help me to focus. Number three, they care about me as a person. When all three of those things happen, they inspire me to do my best. There's a long list of things that people managers do, but that inspiration in getting into the minds and hearts of the team and building a team is what a people manager does. Jason: Just to back that up, what I'll say is, I see this a lot. That's what I get to do all day long is—I've talked to hundreds of different property management entrepreneurs, especially when they get into that 2-400 door range—they end up in this pitfall where they now have a team and the trap because they're trying to manage this team, and they have this to-do list that's ever growing and endlessly long, and everything on their to-do list have been sitting there for more than two weeks. It's probably there because they're not the person that should be doing it. They're in a situation which they are not natural managers. It's just not who they are. Todd: Right. Jason: They end up in a difficult situation in which they're not managing well, the team's not performing well, and then they're blaming the team. Todd: They're really in the wrong role. An entrepreneur is very rarely a people manager. If we meet an entrepreneur who's an awesome people manager, you're looking at the one in a thousand entrepreneurs, or one in a hundred. It's rare to see somebody who's a gifted entrepreneur, and a wonderful people manager. Jason: Virtually, if they are really good people managers, they're not so great at the entrepreneurship, the sales side of the business is struggling, they're really nice to people, but they're not making money. Todd: On the screen, I've got a picture of my wife and I right now. My wife is the consummate, ultimate people manager. She's tremendous in managing people. We have a team of well over 150 here in the Philippines. They all think of her as the mother goose or mother hen, but they love and respect her, and they all do for her above and beyond because they're inspired by her. It's awesome for me to see that because I don't have that skill set and it's wonderful, it defines our company. Let me explain to you why that's so important. If you are a small business, you're the entrepreneur, and you hire your first staff member—maybe it's a property manager, maybe it's a secretary, or a receptionist, maybe it's an inspector, or a work person/handyman—as soon as you start managing people and you're not a people manager, that's what keeps most property management businesses in the 0-200 doors. Because you can't scale beyond 200 doors without hiring a significant number of people. Whether you hire them yourself, or you outsource them, it's up to you, but you need people to blow past 200 doors. The companies, they get from 150-200 doors and grow up to 500 doors, they have to develop a people manager and get reliable people that work for them. There's ways that you can get a people manager. You can hire one directly. By the way, if you were 500 or more doors, the companies that are 800-1000, 2000 doors, let me tell you something, they have a people manager on staff. Jason: Sometimes multiple. Todd: That people manager is the reason why they've hit that level and it's the missing ingredient. Everyone says how do I grow my management company. I say, We'll, there's two ways to grow your management company. One is add more doors but at some point, you're going to need to add a people manager." You can actually rent a people manager or you can hire one depending on how you outsource. That's one of the keys to today's lessons is, "Hey, if I'm 100 doors and all I really want to do is get to 200 because the cash flow just looks so amazing then I want to go to 300. How do I best do it?" There's some real super rules that I'm going to walk you through on how to do that. I've switched screens here now, for those who are listening. If you don't have a people manager, you'll have staff turnover, more than you want staff turnover. You'll notice that it's easier to get bad reviews than it is to get good reviews because you don't have inspired staff on your team. You're going to hit a slower growth process because normally what happens is, the entrepreneurs grows the business to the first 100, 200 doors and then, unless the entrepreneur replaces him or herself and stays working in BDM or business development and growth, then they're going to slow down on their growth. They won't know what to do to kickstart the growth because they're so busy putting out fires because they're not a people manager. Their lifestyle will suffer and they'll say, "I'm not having any fun." Jason: You're referring to inspired staff. I heard this phrase several years ago that's always stuck with me that I believe it's true, that I love sharing with people connected to this and it's, "Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control. Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control." What ends up happening is, as entrepreneurs, because we're generally really driven, risk-oriented somewhat and we're willing to do things that other people aren't willing to do—and sometimes we're more sales-oriented and driven—by default if we're not able to get people to do things, we start just controlling. The opposite is to make them inspired and they just do it. You'll end up with these business owners that are trying to micromanage, push their team, control them, force goals on them, and they aren't inspired to do any of it. These are the team members that are B players, that's the only ones that will stick around in a situation like that, and they are the ones that are complaining about you, the boss, and they go home and live for the weekend. They're just hoping to get a paycheck. That creates a company culture of hiders, they're hiding. Todd: They're hiding even when they're at work. They might hide behind their voicemail. What's the solution? We pointed out that if you are a small business and you want to go to large, at some stage you're going to need a people manager. You can actually hire a local people manager which might cost you $50,000 or $80,000—depending on where you are—or you can hire a virtual people manager for some of the tasks at your business. By doing that, you're now a well-rounded business. You have the entrepreneur, you have the virtual and local employees, and you have a virtual people manager. We're going to ask you guys to rate your business. How do you rate for systems? If you're listening to this right now, "Am I systemized, yes or no?" And if you answer is, "Yeah, I've got a system for everything." If I hire somebody, I sit in my desk, and they can open a training manual, and they can open policies and procedures manual and all of the answers are there. If the answer is that you've got your policies, procedures, and systems setup, then you're halfway there to being able to onboard people. A lot of people, small business owners, and entrepreneurs, they do the trial by fire. They'll hire somebody, sit him at the desk and say, "Figure it out," and if the person survives, then they walk through the fire, and if not, they burn up, burn out, or they leave, or they get fired. And that's all due to a lack of systems, policies, and procedures. Now, what I've seen is that in the 0-150 doors, unless you have a franchise that they're giving you every system that you could imagine, and even some that you don't need, and then you tailor them to your local market, unless you're one of those people who has bought or created your own systems, policies, and procedures, then from 0-150, you're winging it. You're figuring it out yourself and it's all in your head. If you're listening to this you'll say, "Yeah, that's me." Then what's going to happen whether you hire a local staff or a virtual staff and it's all in your head? Jason: For those listening, they can break it down even further because in a business there's not just like one system. A lot of people think, I just need a process system for processes. Every business needs some sort of sales system in their business. They need a communication system as a team in order to communicate effectively. They need a planning system in their business—which a lot of businesses don't really have—for setting goals and milestones and allowing people to know what outcomes that are being worked towards. They need an accounting system, and they need a process system, if I didn't already say that, for documenting, capturing all the process. Whether it's a manual or something like Process Tree. And they need a support system for managing all the customer requests and everything else. They might be a 10 on 1 of these and a 1 on another. It really takes all of these different systems. And then you need processes for all the documented. Todd: What happens is in those 0-150, most entrepreneurs still haven't even started with these systems. From the 150-500, they slowly come to realize that, "These systems are going to make me or break me." By the way, we've outsourced for large businesses that are over 500 and they still have horrible systems, horrible policies, horrible procedures, and believe it or not, really interesting staff and that's the nice way to put it. Jason: That's probably the norm which is sad. Occasionally, you'll see the conversed side where you'll see somebody that is super systems-oriented entrepreneur. They're basically an operator trying to function as the CEO. They will focus so much on process, and operations, and systems and they have no revenue. Todd: It went off work and they're not growing. If you're good at systems, give yourself a pat on the back with your policies and procedures. The next we're going to talk about is your HR. If you;re going to grow your business and scale it and have quality and lifestyle, you have to have HR that can find good people. Then you have to get those people trained, and training does not mean you sit up the desk and figure it out, it means, before we put people to work on their tasks, nobody goes to work with less than one week of training. That's 40 hours of specific human training. It's a live trainer, training somebody with what's our business, what's out vision, mission, values, and then how do you do the actual tasks that you've been hired to do. Supervision is quality assurance and etc. If you have all of those things, probably, you're closer to 500 and more doors. If you're missing any of those things, you're probably in that 0-400 doors. You can say, "I'm good at some, but man, I got major holes and others." That really impacts how you should outsource. I've got a graph up on the screen. The graph talks about if I am rough on my systems or rough on my HR, in other words, if I didn't rate myself high on that last five minutes of conversation, how should I outsource. The answer is, you have three choices: You can hire your own virtual assistant direct by going to the destination country, for instance, the Philippines, wherever, and you can run your ad and try and hire somebody. Not recommended for anybody of any size that's rough on their systems or rough on their HR for obvious reasons. Jason: Yeah. You're setting them up for failure. Todd: Yeah. I see people say, "I don't need a reseller or a turn-key. I'll just do it myself." I'm like, "How are you doing with your systems and you HR with you onshore operations because that's going to directly impact or give you an insight into how your offshore is going to be?" And then they look at me and say, "Yeah, not so good." I'm like, "Well, running out of the country isn't going to make it better." The first option is to hire your own virtual staff direct. The second is hire a VA reseller which is either a recruiter or somebody who will actually stick around after they recruit for you. And then the third option is, "Hey, I just want a turnkey solution that will take care of it for me. In other words, I want staff but I'm paying you to also provide me good systems and processes and good HR because I don't have that yet. In fact, I don't think I'm going to have it anytime soon because I'm busy in that 0-150 doors just getting volume and growing my business." If I can figure out a way to affordably get good systems and HR brought into me by outsourcing, that sounds like a dream job to me. This tells you that turnkey is your number one solution. If you can go to somebody that offers turnkey outsourcing and just give them some process or system or some of the workflow from your business, and then it's called set it and forget it, and just manage the results, you'll be thrilled. If you hire a reseller, you may or may or be thrilled based on how well systemized those systems are for the work that you give. "Have you got a system, or policy, and procedure for the specific work that you're giving?" And/or, "How good are you at managing onshore staff and how well do you think you could manage some offshore staff?" Jason: Right. Todd: Let me go to the next screen which is a hiring guide; if you have good systems already in place and you have a people manager. In my case my wife, in your case, if you have somebody who's a good people manager, wow, what should I do? The answer is, the world is your oyster. You can do turnkey from 0-150 and that allows you to just focus on growing your business. And then when you start hiring locally, from 150-600 doors, it means that it's one last thing to worry about. Now, 600 and more doors, you'd be looking at a big bill from a turnkey operator and you'd be saying, "Look, I can do this myself. I should take this over inhouse with either my own DA resellers," where I pay a recruiter to hire me an offshore staff, or by going to the destination country yourself to hire which can all be done virtually or you can actually take some trips depending on how far away you go. But good systems, good HR, and a people manager is important before you start hiring individual offshore staff that are going to report to you and work for you directly. Does that make sense? Jason: Absolutely. I think people really need to realize that they need to figure out what's the best fit and works for them. One of the biggest mistakes I see people really early on is their default thought is, "I need to go hire somebody like me right here in the US." That's the first employee. They're like, "I need to go get another me and duplicate myself," and they're doing 20 different things; they're wearing 20 different hats. They go to try to hire and they're not ready for that. They can't even bring on somebody, they really should with technology and just start with outsourcing solutions like Virtually inCredible because you're bringing to the table a lot of the stuff they aren't even aware of that they might need yet. Todd: One of the things that I outsource at my management company, for those who are listening who aren't aware, I had a property management company since 1985. I used to absolutely hate the answering my leasing calls because I knew if I didn't answer them during the day then I had no return calls. I knew if I didn't answer them in the evening or on the weekend then I wasn't going to fill my vacancies and I'd have to return more messages. My phone was glued to my ear. I decided to outsource my leasing calls and so many other managers heard about and said, "Will you take my calls too?" It's such a systemized process with us that it's not like you could just hire somebody if you're 120 doors. You can't hire somebody for what you pay us because you're going to pay more for your outsourced people, and they'll only answer 40 hours a week, and we're answering 80 plus hours a week. There's a stage which it makes sense to take it over yourself, but there's a stage where you just say, "Get rid of this and let me focus on other stuff." When we talk about capacity in online reviews, this is the DoorGrow Show and Jason, I'm one of your customers for the review, what's the software you have? Jason: GatherKudos. Todd: GatherKudos, thank you. I think we've had it for several years. We've had good reviews in my management company and that's because we offer good service, and we ask for the reviews. Seasonal workload variations can actually impact your reviews. Let me explain to you why. I'm going to show you what the variations look like. This is what your work orders look like. This is from Super Tenders. Hundreds of thousands of doors went into this. In January until May, you don't have near the work orders that you do in June, July, August, September and then it's slower a little bit again in the fall. You've literally got double the work orders between April and July. April is half of what July is. How do you staff for that in your business? Jason: Yeah. The question is, "Are you going to just double staff and then fire half your staff every season?" Todd: What happens is, if you look at when you get your bad reviews from tenants who are tired of work orders taking forever to get done, you're getting those reviews typically, not April, you get them in June, July, August, September. That's when the majority of bad reviews come in. It's no secret, if you're not staffed for the increase in volume, you're going to have a problem. At my management company, we use Property Meld to technology, really accelerates the communication process and then we use EZ Repair Hotline. Now I can outsource. I'm pretty good at it, but I hire somebody else to do my work order outsourcing because they're pretty good at it. I haven't chosen to do that in the Philippines yet and it's got a US-based team. What do they call about eating your own dog food or drinking your own Kool-Aid? I outsource to other people at my management company because it makes sense for me to do it and I'm under 300 doors. I'm not at that stage where it makes sense for me to take it over. The same goes for our leasing call volumes. This is data courtesy of Virtual inCredible. This is our call volumes across the entire United States on a monthly basis, and you can see, December's the slowest month of the year. Thank goodness, right? Going into the holidays. November, December are great, but literally there's double the volume between December and June. June is going to crush you and people say, "Man, I can't answer my calls or my properties take longer to rent." It's because you're not really staffed to handle it right. This is called a heat map. For those of you who are listening, it's a counter Monday through Sunday, and it shows the darker hours of the day are when we have higher call volumes and the lighter colors are lower call volumes. Throughout the course of the week, on an 80-hours of answering your calls, days, evening, and weekends, there's a tremendous call volume variation between Monday all day. By the way, there is a reason why Mondays are Mondays. Your phone's going to ring with your highest call volume on your leasing calls on Monday. Jason: Compared from the weekend because we aren't generally doing it over the weekend. Todd: Or they didn't get you on the weekend. It could that too. Wednesday is a calm day. How do you staff for that? When you're at 120 doors. When it's just all hands on deck at all times when you're at that volume. It makes sense to just say, "Hey, take my calls. When I grow to a certain stage, I'll take them back." That's where people are able to make a tremendous good decision for their business because if you're under capacity, under staffed, you're going to get bad reviews. Jason: Yeah. Todd: If you have sufficient capacity at all times throughout the season of workload variations, you can get good reviews if you ask for them. If you have too much capacity, too many staff, you'll get good reviews but your profit will suffer. Managing that becomes a full time job when you go past 500 or 600 doors, you'll start to do that yourself but under that, it just makes sense to outsource some of these stuff. It will save you a tremendous amount of time and money, it'll make getting good reviews easier, it'll make your staff happier to get rid of some of your high seasonal workload that varies a lot, and just outsource it until you're big enough to take it back inhouse. Jason: And if you're built out to the point where you can handle the amount of seasonal growth and seasonal increase, then what happens during those lean times, you end up with team members that are sitting at unused capacity. Nobody likes being in a position, or a job in which they feel like they're meaningless, or there's lack of purpose except really bad team members that you wouldn't want. Todd: They'll never tell you that they're not busy. Jason: Yes. They will never say, "Oh, I have so much extra time right now. I'm probably not relevant during these few months. I probably shouldn't be here." It makes a lot of sense. Todd: If you're a small company and growing, this is the last part, I don't have slides for this, maybe I'll stop sharing my screen. Jason: I'll point out, connected to that, it's not a great investment to have a team member that's sitting in the garage half the time not being used. Imagine you live in a big city, and you're taking the subway all the time, and you have this expensive car that you're maintaining constantly but you're not using. Financially, it becomes incredibly costly to have a team that is under utilized especially if they're US-based staff, they're really expensive, and you're not just able to use them. You're [inaudible 00:34:56] the money whether you're using them or not. They're not making any money. Todd: Can you imagine what it's like being me? We've got hundreds of staff and our volume is following that curve. We figure out how to do it. There's something I wanted to share. This is on a personal note from a guy who's grown a management company through a few cycles. If you're in that 150 or less, I want you to ask yourself, "Is it easy to get leads to grow my business?" If it is, great, if it's not, check out DoorGrow, check out some great ways to get improve your leads. Second is, "Am I too busy to grow my business being an operator instead of being an owner?" An owner knows how to grow a business and knows how to keep the capacity to grow the business open because that's what it takes. You know, 60% or 70% of calls to a business are your leasing calls. When you're sitting there answering somebody who says, "How much is that house with the red door?" You're considering the brain damage that's giving you. Meanwhile, your phone's ringing on line two and it's an owner who has a nice listing and you didn't get to that call. If you're struggling to grow your business and you have leads, but you're not growing your business, man, clear your plate, get rid of some of your work, and grow your business. You can always take it back. And then work on reducing your labor costs. If you're in the stage in your business where, "Oh I don't get enough leads or I don't want to grow my business." Well then fine tune your business, that's great. But as long as you can grow and you want to grow, clear your plate and move forward on growth which is your highest dollar. People are valuing management companies at between $2000 and $4000 per door. Each new listing that you can sign up is going to increase your net worth, your asset value of your company by $2000 or $3000. If you can get five new listings in a month, and that's worth $3000 a listing, we're talking $10,000-$15,000, that's what you're increasing your net worth. You grow up that rate in a year and you're $150,000 and $200,000 in your net worth. It's all because you're focused on growth and clearing the decks to make it possible. That's what it takes to grow your business. Then as you bring in the new volume of work, decide carefully, "Should I insource or outsource? Do I have a people manager or don't I? What's the best way that's going to keep the machine moving forward?" That's what I tell people because if they fail that outsourcing, I usually say, "Well, who's the people manager?" And when the entrepreneur says, "I am." I'm like, "Oh, okay." Jason: It didn't work for me. You just did it wrong. Todd: Did you learn something, Jason? Relative to your world and your lives that you've been living with our outsourcing? Jason: Absolutely. All of these makes so much sense. Over the last decade, I've had plenty of failures in outsourcing things or I'm trying to do things. I think if I were to add one thing to this is one thing that has really helped me is to not underestimate or overestimate technology. Because technology, like you mentioned, like Property Meld for example, technology is another tool besides outsourcing that creates leverage, and lowers operational costs, and lower staffing cost. A lot of people will try to go cheap on software. I believe that when it comes to software, you want the best tools, the best softwares. I have spent a lot of money on software tools and I buy the best. I don't buy the Swiss Army knife that can do everything crapily or terribly, but I buy the best in each category to make sure we have the best systems for process, or the best communications system in our business. That allows my team to get more done, and be more efficient, and more effective. Whether you're going to outsource directly or you're going to outsource to companies, make sure that you have the best tools available software-wise because even if software costs you hundreds of dollars a month, people are always going to be more. If you can give them the tools that they need to do the job well, you're collapsing your cost and making them far more efficient, and it always pays off. Todd: Very true. Listen, if anyone has any questions about this, I'll just briefly tell you how we can help you at our company. We do answer your leasing calls, we also have a tenant screening department. That scales too because you get your number of applications in the summer, is a heck a lot more than it is in the winter. We do that. Those are full termkey systems, where you're actually putting a department into place and you don't need a local department to do either of those tasks. In addition to that, we also have a brand new service where we'll hire an individual VA for you with or without phone skills. You can get an admin VA or you can get a CSR, a customer service rep that can answer calls for you, and they're all screened by our company and trained in property management. I used to be a trainer for the Property Management Academy. We put all of our people through all of that training now before they show up at your job. You get screening and training though our VA. If you like some more information, just send an email to todd@virtuallyincredible.com. Be happy to help you out however I can. Jason: Awesome. For those listening, when we put on our conference, DoorGrow Live, we gave Virtually inCredible an award because they have consistently been one of the best in class or the best in their category for what they do inside the DoorGrow Club and inside the feedback that we hear from clients. It's not just my recommendation, it's a recommendation of a lot of people, and you provide a really good experience for people. You are making a difference in the industry. Todd: Yeah, thanks. We're having a ball and appreciate all you're doing to help people grow with creative ways that aren't obvious. I've been through some of your education, it's really high quality. Thank you for what you do. Jason: Appreciate it. Todd, thanks so much for coming on the show, and appreciate you sharing all these insights. I think there's some solid takeaways that people listening this show. I think some rising like start with technology, then start with outsourcing to a solution like Virtually inCredible, and then maybe once you start getting some things dialed in, you might want to start bringing the staff in-house eventually, but you may not. It's going well. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Todd: That's right. Jason: Todd, thanks again. Todd: Alright, guys. Take care. Jason: Alright, it's great having Todd on the show. Again, to make sure to check out the previous episodes in which we talked specifically about leasing lines and the challenges with those with Todd. You can just search for Todd Breen and DoorGrowShow, one word. If you are listening to this on iTunes, be sure to give us your feedback in iTunes, they helps us out, also makes us aware of how you feel about the show. We love getting your feedback on these different shows, and make sure you are inside our Facebook community where you can hang out with cool people like Todd and other really savvy entrepreneurs. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com and this is a community unlike any other. It's a special community of property management business owners that believe in this vision and message that collaboration is more significant and important than competition in what this industry needs right now. If you love the idea of collaboration and helping level up the entire industry, we're just going to help every property management business owner succeed and grow this business and industry and get more market share then that's the place for you, that's your home. Join us in the DoorGrow Club. Thanks everybody for tuning in. Until next time to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow show. 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