Property Management Growth with DoorGrow

Do you want to grow your single-family portfolio, but not sure how? Don't think you're smart enough to be successful in real estate? Invest in yourself, get an education, and hire a coach. Today, I am talking to Mark Dolfini, founder of Landlord Coach and author of three real estate books. Mark shares how he ventured into real estate, property management, and landlord coach. He follows the VIP Paradigm: Vision, Infrastructure, and Process. You'll Learn... [04:40] Real Estate Education: You can learn, if you want to; even if you're not smart. [07:21] Hospitality Industry: How to treat people, customers, and residents like guests. [10:37] Set up sustainable business by shifting to VIP Paradigm. [14:35] Landlord Coach's favorite catch phrases focus on valuing your time and money. [19:30] Better Business Owner: It's not about the number of doors, but what you're trying to accomplish in revenue and lifestyle. [26:40] Cycle of Suck and 4 Ds to Revenue (doors, deals, duration, and dollars). [29:10] Being time wealthy is more of a decision than a destination. [31:37] Bad communication is a symptom of the problem, not the problem. The problem is a bad infrastructure and/or process. [36:35] Product to Produce: Consistency; sloppiness is your only competition. [37:35] Negative Feedback Loop: If you put something in place, make sure it gets done. [39:04] Company's Compass: Define/develop core values to make business decisions. [41:55] Being your own boss is great, but get a coach to take you where you want to go. [44:10] Difference between mentor and coach: Invest in yourself by paying a coach to hold you accountable. Tweetables Real Estate Education: It's about the want to; not the intelligence. Don't do it all. Learn to fire yourself! There is no amount of money that will make time irrelevant. If you don't place a value on your free time, someone else will. Resources Mark Dolfini on Facebook Landlord Coach The Time-Wealthy Investor 2.0 Marriott DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today I'm hanging out with Mark Dolfini of Landlord Coach. Mark, welcome to the show. Mark: Hey, it's great to be here. That's a heck of an intro. Jason: It's our manifesto, I call it. Mark: I love it. That speaks directly to my heart when we're talking about people who want to grow their single family portfolios. That gets me fired up. Jason: So Mark, I want to introduce you. I'm really excited to have you on the show. We're talking before show a little bit and we have a lot of alignment. We both believe in coaching, we both believe in having coaches. It says Mark Dolfini is a veteran of the US marines—thank you for your service—and the author of three real estate books. He was first published in 2017, second book released in early 2018, and his third book, The Time-Wealthy Investor 2.0, came out in March of 2019. He received a Bachelor of Science in Accounting at Purdue University, worked for Marriott International before venturing out full time into the world of real estate investing. He's a managing broker for property management company based out of Lafayette, the founder of Landlord Coach, sits on numerous boards, including the Better Business Bureau of Central Indiana, the National Federation of Independent Business, and is a training director for the Central Indiana BNI Franchise and Networking Organization. He spends his free time pistol shooting and kayaking, and lives in Lafayette where he and his wife, Jennifer, are raising their two sons, Leland and Logan. All right, so we got through your bio. Mark, let's start out with you and I want to hear about your background. How did you get into the space of real estate, property management, landlord coach, all of this. How did this all come about? Give us a little backstory. Mark: Sure. Well, I'd love to say it was a straight line trajectory, but you know there's your plan and God's plan, right? That doesn't and usually don't always match up. Jason: [...] and then there's reality. Mark: Exactly. Jason: [...] winds. Always. Mark: Right. I'd always wanted to do something entrepreneurial. I didn't know exactly what that was. I mean, this is back me being seven or eight years old, I started with a vegetable stand, the vegetable that I grew in Upstate New York and sold them at a vegetable stand that I built out of out of wood. So I always started back from there. My first go at real estate was when I was actually in the marine corps still and I bought 40 acres of property that was in Northern Arizona. I paid a couple of hundred bucks an acre for it and that was really it. It was just a desert in the middle of nowhere that no one seemed to want, but I knew at $200 an acre was a pretty good deal. I ended up buying it for capital appreciation at that point in time. But having a piece of land that doesn't generate income doesn't generate revenue. I learned pretty quickly is not the way to wealth. Getting someone else to pay for it was really what I wanted to do. I was getting near the end of my time in the marine corps. Had a great time, it was good for me in a lot of ways. It was tough, but I'm glad I did it. I also knew I needed to get an education. So, I got out. Now, let me just frame this because I went to school in Upstate New York and graduated 352nd out of 354. Let that sink in, everybody. I was at the bottom of the class. Jason: Right [...] the class by any means. Mark: Right. Not even close. The reason I'm saying that is because people who are out there think that they have to have this high-level of intelligence and high-level of intellect to make this business work. If you know anything and you're doing real estate, it's about the want to, it's not about the intelligence. Let me just put that to bed right away. Now, that doesn't give you an excuse to not go out and say, "Well, I need to learn things and therefore it's just too hard." There are lots of things are difficult. Walking when you were two years old was probably difficult. Or 18 months when learning how to talk was difficult at one point. It's the same thing. You can learn this if you have the right intention. Anyway, getting out of the marine corps and getting into college was a little tricky because with my "stellar" high school career. I had to figure out how to how to do that. I hadn't sat for an SAT. I had to learn in high school all that stuff. When I got out of the marine corps, I actually got accepted to Purdue. I got a high-enough score on my SAT. While I was at Purdue, I started buying some rental real estate. By the time I got out of Purdue, I had about a dozen rental units altogether, which is roughly half a million dollars for the real estate. That really how I got started and that's really where my real estate education really got started. Jason: Right, so you cut your teeth on in the real world with your own real estate deals dealing with tenants, toilets, and termites, I'm sure. Fast forward to now. Help us understand. We're going to be talking about the VIP paradigm: vision, infrastructure, and process the acronym. Let's get into it. Mark: Sure. Before I get into that, it's important to know that the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey might say. As I was getting out of college and I was buying more rental units, there's lots of property managers out there who are also investors, so now I'm speaking to them as well. As I was growing this side of the portfolio, I was working as an accountant—I have a degree in accounting—for the Marriott. Wonderful, wonderful company. I learned an awful lot from the hospitality industry in terms of how to treat people, how to treat customers, and really treat my residents like I would be treating hotel guests. There's a lot to learn out there from the hospitality industry in terms of what they do right. It's just a different approach. It's almost like the paradigm shift that happened with the banks maybe about 20 years ago. It used to be you run into the bank almost when you were in trouble. Now, you walk into a bank and everyone greets you, throws bottles of water at you, says hello and they give you this. That wasn't always the way. The old school guys may remember that. Now, it's a different paradigm because now they're welcoming customers. They want you to come into the bank. They want you to have that transaction at their location. I would love to see that shift continue into the property management side because now it almost seems like the residents are the enemy rather than they're the ones who pay the bills. As I continue to evolve and I loved what I learned from the hospitality industry, eventually I got to a point where I was able to get out and start to do that full-time just managing my own portfolio. Unfortunately, I got very, very overleveraged, not only in money but in time. What was happening is every time a task would come on, rather than looking for someone to hand that task to, I just took it on and kept it. There's lots of property managers out there that are doing this. They're not valuing their time highly enough. What ends up happening is they end up taking on this job, they don't factor in opportunity cost where they're going to take every job that's out there and they're going to do it. Even though they may be worth realistically $20–$50 an hour, they're still doing $10 an hour jobs. In essence, every time they're doing a $10 an hour job, they're costing their business $40 an hour or $30 an hour and they don't look at in that paradigm. Learning to fire yourself is one of the biggest things and I'm sure we can get in that little bit later, but really where my transition in the property management occurred was almost out of necessity. That seems to happen for a lot of people and certainly I was no exception. Going into 2009, I had about $6 million worth of real estate in my own portfolio. I was working 16–17 hours a day just trying to keep all the balls in the air. When the economy fell apart, that's when things really, really got bad for me. Of course I started working 20 and 22 hour days and kept catching naps wherever I could. I was doing it all and I was doing it all very, very poorly. Finally, where the camel's back broke was I got sick and I almost died in the hospital from double pneumonia. From all that, is really where I really got very intentional about setting up a business that was sustainable and I started delivering to my cash flow by doing some property management for other people. I got my broker's license, started doing some property management on the side, and that's really where I also got very, very intentional about how I want my business to look, the infrastructure that I needed it, and also the processes that needed to run on that infrastructure. That's the vision infrastructure process paradigm that you're alluding to earlier is you're getting a vision where I wanted to go, setting up the proper infrastructure for it, and then putting the processes in place on top of that. Jason: I want to point this out because this is a milestone that I'm wondering if every entrepreneur eventually go through it. It's like a crisis of health where we finally realize that we are not invincible, that it's not sustainable to just do the hustle and grind that's trumped up, and it made to look beautiful and exciting to just work, endless work weeks and crazy amounts of hours. Looking back, I had my own crisis like this. I remember I was literally at the end of a sales call laying on the floor because I had slipped a disk in my back or something because I wasn't eating. I was just working, I thought I had to work harder and harder, I was just do-do-do, and then I couldn't work for two weeks. I was laying on the floor and it was ridiculous. That gets really expensive trying to recover from that. 5That was when I had this shift and this epiphany came to me that our health and self-care is the foundation for my ability to provide, to do everything in the business, and you need to have a business that serves your needs and be sustainable instead of becoming this robot slave that is going to wear your body out on the business. Mark: Right To that point, you have to understand that we work so we can live, not the other way around. There's so many people who are out there living to work and property managers, you get that one or two critical pieces, or one or two critical people that are doing 80%–90% of the work, and then you get everybody else who just shows up and cares or doesn't care, whatever. I know it's a typical 80/20 rule where you get 20% of people doing 80% of the work. In property management, it's more like 1% doing 99% of the work. Then you got those critical pieces and you cannot build a sustainable business on that. Lots of property managers are very small. They're under 500 units and they're one- or two-man shops. In the property management company that I have, definitely is a weird hybrid between management company, maintenance company, but it works and it works really, really well. We can get into that later, but I agree with you. You have to almost get to that crisis. You either get to that crisis and you make a decision or you just have enough for you to just walk away. In either one, I don't think is good. A lot of people get to that point because they don't value their free time. That's fundamentally it. They're just not buying their time. Rob: Yup. Time is worth more than money to me now. If people approached it from that standpoint at the beginning, that's why you hire somebody. You're buying time. That's why you build the business. You're buying time. Every dollar I spend should be hopefully moving towards buying me some additional time or collapsing time. That's why I get coaches. It collapses time. I'm buying time. I love what you're saying. A lot of times, we start out building the business we can have instead of the business that we want, and they're two very different things. One you're serving and the other one serves us. Mark: That's exactly right. There are two catch phrases I use all the time. One of those is, "There is no amount of money that will make time irrelevant." When you get your head around that, then all of a sudden you say, "Okay." The other phrase I use quite often, especially when I'm signing-off on a live event or something like that is, "Not only is there no amount of money that will make time irrelevant, but if you don't place a value on your free time, someone else will." Usually the amount of value that they're going to place on your free time is far less than what you're worth, and they know it. That's why they're calling you with that, right? Jason: Yeah. The, "You got a minute?" and, "Hey, can I just take you out to lunch?" these kind of things. Mark: Absolutely right. That's exactly right. Jason: You need to value your time. I don't know how you tell people to value your time, but I usually say, "Take your gross revenue of the company if you're the entrepreneur and divide that by 20-, 80-, or a 40-hour work week. That's a pretty good estimate of what you should, at least, value your time as a dollar if you were looking at it on a dollar per hour basis." Mark: Yeah, and if you did it on a 40-hour work week, you'd be surprised that most property managers I know are working way more than that. When you come back into it just from that simple math, that's a perfect calculation. In fact, that's exactly how I would tell people how to put just a rough number on your time. Or even people that are doing property management on the side. There's lots of property managers are also estate brokers. They all have to be brokers, but they're also doing real estate transactions on the side where they're showing properties and they're selling properties. That's all revenue and that's where you need to determine your opportunity cost. I would say all of your revenue that's coming in, divide that by coming up with an hourly rate in terms of a 40-hour work week or even a 50-hour work week, to be fair. If you're coming up with the $50–$60 an hour rate and you're doing a $12 an hour work, you've got to replace yourself from doing that task as soon as you possibly can. I have a driver that I hire when I go to Indianapolis. I go to Indianapolis a couple of times a week and people are like, "Oh, you're mister big time," and I'm like, "No, it's not about that. It's not about because I feel super important. It's because I get three hours of windshield time that literally is purposeless. I might listen on audio book. I still like to drive, but it's not about that. It's so I can get that time back." So when I'm done at the end of the day, I'm not completely wiped out and spent. I don't have to spend an extra three hours at the office that I should be spending with my wife, even if just sitting on the couch with her. Or just sitting at home being with her, or being around my kids, or just being home, where I want to be. There's lots of people who don't understand that and I'm like, "Okay, I pay this guy maybe $50, $75, $100 to drive me there and back. That's easily worth it because my time is several hundred dollars an hour. Someone wants to call me and coach with me, I'm like, "Yeah, that's what I'm going to charge you," so why would it cost myself that money driving? Sometimes, I still do because I want the solitude and I want to listen to an audio book and just enjoy it. Sometimes, I just want road time. But lots of times, if it's purposeless, I really want to try to eliminate those bottlenecks as quickly as I possibly can, so I can stay focused on what I'm really trying to accomplish. Jason: Yeah. It's funny. You'll see entrepreneurs, they say they have $1 million business. Their time is probably worth about $480 an hour by that calculation, say $500 bucks an hour, and they're still doing stuff like sometimes you'll see them doing their yard. If they love doing those things, great, but sometimes we'll be so focused on one area that we lose sight. For example, there was a time period where I hired a house manager and a nanny because all the fake dad stuff was being done. [...] care about laundry. They don't care who makes the mills. They want time. So if I can offload those thing to somebody and I'm not paying them $500 an hour to offload those things, then I can spend time. Ultimately, were buying time and that's a critical piece to growing and scaling business. Mark: Yes. That's 100% vision. A lot of times, especially whether I'm working with an individual investor or I'm working with a property manager, door count is really where a lot of people say that and I stop them. I know. For example, I got the moniker, Landlord Coach, but my goal is to make people not landlords. If I was going to be a property management coach, my goal would not to make them better property managers. My goal for them is to be better business owners. Even though a lot of times they say, "Oh, all I want," if it's an investor, "are 100 units," or if it's a property manager, "I want 1000 doors." I'm like, "Okay, so 999 wouldn't do it?" and they go, "Well, yeah maybe." "Okay 997 wouldn't do it?" I'll go down this until they finally get that, "Well, okay Mark, what's your point?" I said, "Look, it's not the number of doors. It's really about..." Jason: It's not an ego number, not an ego goal. Mark: Right. It's not about that at all. It's about what you are trying to accomplish in terms of your revenue goals. It's really about that. If this is about ego, I respect that, but that's not toward your vision. A lot of times they say, "Okay, well let's get towards a vision that's really actually purposeful and usually after I beat him up a little bit and I go, "Okay, 997. How about 995?" After they go, "Okay, what's your point?" A lot of times I would say, "Okay, so in other words, you're saying to me that you need to get to a revenue or you need to get to 1000 doors at, say, $1000 apiece. That's what you need, but you couldn't get there with 500 doors at $2000 apiece? Obviously the math is the same and a lot less work," and they go, "Well, yeah. Okay." "So, is it really about door count? Because I can get you 1000 doors. There are not going to be anything in the world that you or anybody else going to want to manage, but you really want 1000 doors?" Jason: [...] ridiculously low, that you can get a lot of doors really quickly. Mark: And that's what a friend of mine did. He's in the area of the state that I wouldn't go to for love or money, and it's terrible. I feel bad for him because I see him, watching him get into a leaky lifeboat in shark-infested waters, and I'm just like, "Oh, my God." And he's a good dude. He grew overnight from zero to, I don't even know he's pumping maybe 150–200 now, but they're units that I wouldn't take for any amount. I literally go, "Well, the rent amount isn't enough to cover my management fees," because they still wouldn't be enough. Jason: Ultimately, people really need to ask themselves the question, "What do you really want? What do I really want out of the business?" If it's an ego goal, great, but maybe what you really want is usually some lifestyle or maybe you want to have some amount of time, you want to spend time with your kids. What do you really want? And maybe you can create that and have that without having 1000 doors or without it having to look a certain way that you may have thought. [...] really matter? Why [...] matter? Mark: Right. It's really not about door count as much as people want to focus on that now to a certain degree. It depends on your business structure. Again, investors are a little bit different than property managers. In my case, we do a lot of our own maintenance. We have an in-house maintenance department. A significant amount of revenues come in from that. Having more doors enables us to have more opportunities to maintenance. So in that particular case, it does really matter, but we still want to manage higher-end properties. We don't do a lot of low-end stuff anymore just because of the amount of banging your head against around. It just increases exponentially when you get a certain lower market. It's just not a market that we want to court anymore. We got out of that probably maybe six years ago and never looked back. The level of drama that has decreased in my life has just been exponential. Not saying that's bad. There's other people who want to court that market and do well in that market. That's certainly fine if that's a strategy that's working for you. I'm not telling you about to change it. But for me, I would really invite you to really focus on not even so much as a revenue goal, because then the revenue goal, it's funny because people go, "Well, yeah. I would like to have $50,000 a month coming in free cash flow, Mike." And then, I go back to my normal argument and go, "Well, okay. So you want $50,000 a month coming in. $49,990 won't do it?" So, you have to tie it to a life output goal. That's why I say to them, "What is this even about? What are you trying to accomplish?" When they say, "Well, okay. What I'm really trying to do," and usually it's after they start to fight back some tears, "honestly I just want to spend more time with my kids." "Okay, does more time mean?" "Honestly, I would love to be able to homeschool them." "Awesome. Now we're getting to a vision that really frigging matters. Not some nebulous 1000 doors, or $50,000 a month, or whatever it is. That's what you want and we can tie a number to that. We can tie a revenue number to that." Or, "I want to move my aging mother into a house that's just close by." "Okay, what's it going to take to buy your mom a house? Do you even need to buy it? Can you rent one? The next 10 years, your mom's 80 now. Is she going to live another 10 years or you can budget 10 years worth of rent payments for that sort of thing?" Whatever that is, you can actually get a quantifiable life output goal that's tied to that and that's really what vision really needs to be. It needs to come from the limbic system of our brain. The problem with the limbic system is it doesn't have a capacity for language. It can't explain why you love your wife. It can't explain why you love your grandmother. We come up with platitudes like, "Well, she bakes me cookies," but that's a thing. You just say, "I don't know. It's just the way she makes me feel," and you get teary-eyed. That's the limbic system activating your brain and that's how when you get to that point of your vision and you start to think that way, feel that when you get the goose bumps on your on your arms, that's when you're close. And that's when you know you're starting to get to a vision that really, really matters. Jason: I like it. I like it a lot. You touched on a couple things. Some of the concepts that I share is the cycle suck. It's like if you take on bad owners, you'll have bad tenants or bad properties. If you have bad properties, you get bad tenants. If you get bad tenants, then you all have a bad reputation, and then you'll attract more bad owners. By taking up on the crappy properties, you end up caught in property management hell, the cycle of suck. Another concept that resonates with what you're talking about that I the shares the four Ds to revenue. It's not just about doors. The four Ds, the first one could be doors, but the next one is how many deals. Deals is usually what I share first. You get number of deals you get in, how many doors per deal? It's not just about the doors. One deal being worth one door, that's the ratio, then you don't have as much leverage. It's not as easy, but if on average your deals have two doors, you double your revenue. It's these four numbers that multiply. Then, you've got duration. How long can you keep the door on? A 1-year accidental investor versus a 10-year buy and hold, in your property management business there's 10 times difference. That's pretty significant. Then, there's dollars. It's just what your fee structure is like. Are your fees good? It's not just about doors. There's all these other variables that can create that. I love shifting it towards the life goal because the life goal is what really matters. I would imagine you found this with coaching clients. Sometimes the life goal and all the stuff they had trumped up in their mind, or built up, or that they felt they needed in order to have the life that they want, sometimes you can just jump right to life goal. You can just create that like, "I want to spend an extra hour with my kids." "Okay, block out an extra hour," and they're like, "Oh, I didn't think I could do that." Sometimes it's really that simple. We can just jump right to the life goal and the business will still be there and it will still function. Mark: Yup, that is true. One of the things I talk about in The Time-Wealthy Investor 2.0 is really about making that decision. A buddy of mine who's got multiple units is just nauseatingly wealthy in terms of real estate. He's a great guy and said to me, "You know? I read your book the other day." He's a guy who doesn't read and he's such a snarky friend. His name is Randy and he says, "I would never admit this to your face, but I feel I have to," he goes, "I really got a lot out of that book." I was like, "Okay. What's the punchline?" He's like, "No, there's really no punchline. I feel I am time-wealthy," he goes, "and funny, I could probably retire based on the life output that I want to define right now." He's like, "Really, time-wealth is really more of a decision that it is a destination." I was like, "Yeah, it really is because right now I have all the time-weath that I want. I work about maybe two hours a week. Sometimes I'm working more, like right now, I'm pitching in more in the office just because we're down a person," but it gets me re-engage in the business and it makes me go, "Hey guys, why are we doing it this way?" and then they go, "Oh, because this this and this." I'm like, "Okay, cool," and I let them define the process. If they're the ones that normally work the process, my job is really to come in, look and see what maybe needs tinkering with, maybe new or adjusting, giving them coaching, that's the sort of thing. Working 2 hours a week, sometimes 4–5 hours a month in the property management business, but I have all this time-wealth to do other things like coaching, writing books, and things that I really, really enjoy. It really is just a decision. When you hire good people, you bring them in, you set up a solid infrastructure for your business, set up solid processes, and you let them run it. Stay the hell out of the way. When I'm coaching property managers, that's where I see a lot of problems. They don't have an established vision for themselves, they don't have proper infrastructure, they're trying to run on really lean infrastructure or none at all, so the process has to pick it up. What I'm talking about infrastructure, say property management software, or website, or things like that, when you have a weak infrastructure, it has to be picked up by a stronger process, which means people. A person has to pick up that extra process. Let's just go from the really sublime to ridiculous level. Say you don't have property management software. You're running everything on Excel spreadsheets. That's the extreme, but there are property managers out there doing that, so that means they have to have a lot of people managing that poor infrastructure. Here's the thing. Here's the one thing I hear all the time is that, "Oh, my property manager doesn't communicate. They don't communicate with me. They don't tell me." When you have bad communication, that is a symptom of the problem, not the problem. Let me say that again. When you have bad communication, that's a symptom of the problem, not the problem. The problem is you have bad infrastructure, you have bad process. That's where communication issues are going to show up. Let's just use a very obscure example. We've all been to a restaurant where you had bad service. You're sitting down and you can see that that waiter has nine tables and that waiter has one table. You're trying to communicate to someone to take your order. You can see the problem because you're sitting on the outside. You can see the problem, but you're going, "Well, that waiter's got nine tables, that one's got one. Why isn't the manager stepping in?" Bad process. "Why does that person have nine tables?" That's bad infrastructure. That never should have happened that way. That's just one very obscure example. Let me use another quick example here real fast. Have you ever walked up to a McDonald's at a truck stop, where there's basically four cashiers ready to take your order. You walk up, you look left and right, and everybody's standing back away from the registers. the customers. You're trying to figure out who's next in line. You're like, "Can I go? Are you next?" Because there's no infrastructure, the customers have to decide who's next in line. What's a simple piece of infrastructure that you could put in place to manage that? Well, a simple queue, a simple rope line. That's a piece of infrastructure that you could put in place that would manage the customer flow. Then, you don't have to worry about that. Another example would be a bad process. Let's pretend you go back to the same McDonald's. This time it's really busy and the customers are four and five deep at each line at each of the four registers. This time what ends up happening is you get a manager that opens the fifth register and says, "I can help the next person." Then, you get somebody who goes from the bend of one line and then jumps in front of everybody else. Now you just base and created a brawl. It's this mad rush towards this fifth line. That's a process problem. What should have happened is, "Hey, I'm the assistant manager. I'm going to have you open that line over there but I'm going to direct some people over there. I'm going to go out to the crowd and direct some people over there first before you say anything." Then you can manage the process. That's process. That's a broken process when they do it the other way. That's why I'm saying infrastructure and process shows up in bad communication all the time. This means they're not communicating work orders when they come in. They're not communicating when a resident doesn't pay rent. Owners need to know that. They need to know if they're expecting the revenue to come in on a certain month and they don't get communicated that. "Oh, by the way, the resident never paid rent," and, "Oh, yeah. By the way, we're going to go ahead and evict them." They need to know these things and when you don't have an infrastructure or a process in place to let them know that, that's when communication falls. That's when the bad communication issue show up. Jason: Yeah, it's interesting. It's really tempting for entrepreneurs to start blaming their team. This is like early entrepreneurs that they're transitioning away from being a solopreneur, that having a team, they usually build the team around them as if they're just the solopreneur still, and they try to micromanage them. They're always complaining about the communication. They're always complaining about people not doing things, "Why can't they just do what I tell them?" and that sort of thing. I like what you're saying is they have bad infrastructure and bad process. Things are not defined, there isn't clarity, and that leads to challenges in communication. [...] built into the process. They can be part of the process. [...] you need the right tools to facilitate communication. I run a virtual company. If we didn't have the tools that facilitate communication, there wouldn't be any. We're in different states, some of us different countries. Mark: That's exactly right and they need to think about their business, about the product that they produce. I used somewhat as a nebulous example, but the product that they need to produce should be consistency. That's the product that they need to be shooting for. When consistency is your product, the only competitor you're going to have a sloppiness. When consistency is your product, sloppiness is your only competition. That's the thing that is really hard for me to convey to lots of managers because we've got all sorts of products. We sell properties. We buy properties. We do all these different things. I don't care what you're doing. I don't care if you're making razor blades. You need to have a consistent product and I will not allow us to do anything in the business unless we can do it consistently. If they come to me and say, "Hey, you know what we should do? We should send out birthday cards to all of our residents." "Okay, great. How are you going to do that consistently? And you need to tell me. Who's going to manage it? Who's going to do it? What's the negative feedback loop if that doesn't happen?" Let me talk about negative feedback loop for second. You put something in place, it's like I send you an email expecting you to do something. What's the negative feedback loop I'm going to put in place if that doesn't happen? I'm not talking a negative feedback loop like someone complains, which is often what happens if something doesn't get done. You go, "Oh, man. I don't know. I sent that email off two weeks ago. I forgot about it. I just assume that they would do it." What's the negative feedback that you're going to put in place to make sure it actually gets done? Are you going to list that [...]? Are you going to put a task? Are you're going to put something in some task management software? What's the negative feedback loop that you're going to have to make sure that stuff gets done? That's all part of process. Let me just boil this down into an example because I keep saying vision, infrastructure, and process. Think of vision as your map. Infrastructure would be the train tracks, and then the process should be the train that runs on those tracks that all stays in alignment with your vision for the future. Now, for property managers, they're saying, "Well, why would my employees care about my vision?" They're not going to care about your vision. They're only going to work so hard, but they're not going to work that hard to put a boat in your driveway, or a pool in your backyard. This is an extra step to goes in with property managers is once you have that vision for your future, then you go into developing core values for your business. The core values are just the things that you value. You may value justice, You may value efficiency, you may value lots of different things that are core to you, but now you get to identify what those things are and that becomes your compass for all decisions that you're making. Once you have those core values defined, if you're making improvement, you say, "Okay, is this in line with my core values?" If I'm going to make a hiring decision or a firing decision, are they acting in line with my core values? When I do my employee evaluations, I'm going to say, "Hey, when you did this, this was really in alignment with our core values and I really like what you did," or, "Hey, when you did this, I was really upset because it wasn't in line with our core values. I'm [...] say you. I'm just upset that your behavior because this isn't in alignment with our core values." One of the things I'll coach them through, some are three, four, five, no more than six. A lot of people sometimes want to get, "Oh, we value all the stuff," but usually it's something that's inherent to them as an individual and they value these things. They value justice, they value equity, they value fairness, and they can value profitability. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean you're a bad person because we all need profits to grow, get better, and be a better company. Once you get those core values defined, then it's easier to put infrastructure and process improvements in place. The infrastructure of the things I'm talking about there are websites, software, even the desks and chairs in your office. The process pieces are really about how you operate. It's the rules of how much you operate, it's your SRP, it's your FAQs. Those things that really helped define how things are done in your office based on it that infrastructure that you have in place. Jason: A lot of alignment between what you're doing and what I do with clients as well. I mean, 3–4 core values for their business, you're helping them figure out their purpose, their why as a business owner. These things sound like woo woo and fluff to a lot of people until they implement them. Then, they're usually pretty astounded because, like I tell my clients, "You're the sun at the center of the solar system. If you don't like what's going on inside the solar system, you change the sun, everything changes." Usually as business owners, we try to externalize everything and tackle everything farthest away from ourselves. If we work on ourselves. everything changes by default. Mark: That's so good. I love that. That is so true. Jason: So, we talked about vision, we talked about the infrastructure, we talked about the process. Is there anything else that you want to touch on while we're hanging out here? Mark: Yeah. I see a lot of people out there that are just working themselves. They've created a job for themselves and they're not ever trying to transition themselves out. They think that there's no end in sight. Jason: They've succumbed. They [...] to their fate. Mark: Yeah. I'm not saying I'm the coach for everybody and you would probably say the same thing, that you're not the coach for everybody, but for God's sake, get a coach. Get somebody that can help you get to where you want to go so much faster. Yeah, it's great being your own boss because you didn't want to be held accountable to anybody. But now you're not accountable to anybody, know your life sucks. It didn't turn out the way you want it. If you're living the dream, your life is great, and you have everything that you want, that's great. I don't know that I can help you get much better, but get somebody to help you. We talked earlier about each of us having coaches. I spend a lot of money each month on coaches to help me in areas where I have blind spots and just to challenge me, just to say, "Hey, Mark. You said you were going to do XYZ by a certain period of time. That's not done, so now what?" They already know how they're going to hold me accountable and I pay a fair sum to these people, so it hurts when I show up. I know I'm going to be ready when the bell rings. It's not about paying them the money just for the sake of paying them the money so that they can call and yell at me. They are a softer touch, but the thing is, I want to make sure that I'm being held accountable because we don't have anybody that's holding us accountable. That's the danger of being an entrepreneur. I would really encourage people to look at that. It doesn't necessarily need to be real estate-focused although it probably would make more sense. I have one that helps me in sales. I have one that helps me in marketing. I have one that helps me as a national speaker. I go and I speak at a lot of different places, so I have one that help coach me in that. And of course different masterminds of things like. I would really, highly encourage people that if they are looking or just flirting with the idea, get somebody. I am going to say this. The difference between a coach and a mentor, I would say a mentor is probably someone that you're not paying, probably a friend. They are not going to hold you accountable to the level that you need. I say that this is someone you need to pay, it needs to hurt a little bit, and you need to have some skin in the game. You really need to be committed and you really need to be paying somebody to do that. Like I said, it doesn't need to be me, it doesn't need to be you. I'm just saying it's someone they knew paying someone. Jason: Yeah. There's some magic I've noticed, just psychologically, that happens in shifts inside of my clients or that shifts inside of myself when I am paying a coach and I'm investing in myself. It just shifts psychologically how we value ourselves and energetically it allows us to convince others to invest in us as well. It's a hard sell to go out even as a property management business owner and if you're doing the sales in your company, you're the BDM and say, "Hey, you should spend money with us. You should invest. You should have us manage your rental property," but I don't even invest in myself. I don't care enough about myself or my business to invest in that. I'm just trying to make money, then you're going to ask others to invest in you. Psychologically, when you invest in yourself, I've noticed revenue goes up for me, lifestyle shifts. There's something that happens energetically and psychologically when you are subconsciously investing in yourself. It shifts things. I love what you're saying, everybody really deserves to have a coach, they deserve to be working with consultants, they deserve to have people above them. If you're at the top of the org chart, there's a problem. There's a problem because everybody below in the org chart is hopefully being fed, getting some input, growing, and evolving, but if you're at the top of the org chart and there's nobody above you, it's a scary place to be. [...] The Emperor With No Clothes, unless you get some input, unless you get somebody that you can place above you in that org chart like a coach, or mentor, or something that will feed you. Mark: I look at it exactly the way you're looking at it except I flip your chart upside down. I look at those people as the direct supports for everybody above them because they're carrying the weight of everybody above them. If you get somebody that's not doing what they're supposed to be doing—they're coming in late, they're wiggling around at the top, and you're trying the keep the org chart balanced—it's tough. Maybe it's so far up that you can't see what's going on up there, but you have a coach that can stand back and go, "Yeah, that guy's playing Galaga on his computer and you don't even see it," because you don't want to see it or you just can't see it. That's where it gets tricky and a lot of times, you get too close to the problem and you can't see it. It's like you sitting back watching the waiter who's got nine tables. You can see the problem instantly. Jason: [...] you can't sometimes. They're too close to the fire, they're dealing with what they're dealing with right at that moment, that's us as entrepreneurs all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've had a coach, I've sat down with coach or talk to one of my coaches and said, "Hey, here's what I'm dealing with," and they point, they say something to me, and I feel really stupid, then I say back to them, "That's exactly what I would've told one of my clients." We're just too close to the fire. We don't have somebody outside of ourselves because we are the one that created the problem. We're at the helm. We are the problem. We are the biggest bottleneck in our company. We are the one holding everything back. We're the one preventing growth. Us trying to solve the problem on our own is like trying to look at the back of our own head. Mark: Yeah. It's like trying to put sunscreen on your own back and that's the thing. If you don't see yourself as part of the problem, you cannot see yourself as part of the solution. A lot of times when it's educating them to say, "Look, your company has a very real culture problem. That one is not respectful, that one is treating customers anyway that they want. As a result, they're treating each other very poorly and blah-blah-blah." That's because when you got ill-defined core values, you're going to run into that. You're going to run into culture problems. There's a client that I really didn't feel like I could help him as much as I wanted to, but he had a real culture problem is at his office. He didn't really see it until he started letting some people go that were really some of the major problems. He had a live event that we don't work together anymore, but I'd love to get him back on just to say, "Hey, how are you doing? How did things evolve for you in terms of getting those core values more well-defined?" and really start holding people accountable to them. One of the things that I do is we have an 8:07 meeting every day. The reason it's 8:07 is people are rarely late to a meeting that's got an oddball time to it. They always get there early. There's not much I don't do without purpose, but every meeting, we pick one of our five core values and we review it. They're hearing these core values every single day. That way at their 90-day evaluation, guess what they get to roll over again? Guess what they're hearing again? Our core values. They're getting graded against those core values. It's not just a shock like, "Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. I never heard that core value before." These are things that need to be repeated over and over. Jason: Yeah. I think we run our businesses probably somewhat similar [...]. Everything gravitates towards truth. We do our daily huddle at 8:45 every morning. I always have appointments starting at 9:00, so it has to be short and that allows our team to see each other because we're virtual, but yeah, it's an oddball time which does work, to make sure people show up. Mark: Absolutely. Jason: Cool. Mark, it's really great to connect with you, to get [...]. How can people get in touch with you? Now, I want to point out like we were talking before the show, your area of genius, what you really can help probably our listeners with, is on the delivery, the fulfillment side, building out this portion of their business where they may be struggling, especially those that are graduating maybe from solopreneur to trying to build a team. That's where they're getting the systems and processes. They're not the guy doing every single thing or the gal doing every single thing anymore and that's a painful transition. How can people get in touch with the Mark and Landlord Coach? Mark: My website's landlordcoach.com. I'm on Facebook @mylandlordcoach. You can find me easily. You can see the moniker in the back. I think where you and I differ is that I helped create capacity in the world. I helped create white space on our calendar. What they do with that white space is up to them. If they want to use that white space to grow their company from 300 doors to 800 doors, that's fine. I don't help them with the growth side. I just help them create capacity on their calendar, help create white space, so they can do whatever they want. Now, some people go, "Yeah. I'm happy with the white space and I'm making enough money now and I've gotten time on my calendar. I'm cool. I got everything I want." Some people get to that point in their like, "No, we're ready to grow." I'm not the growth guy. It's not what I do. I'm not from that piece of it. I [...] turn it over to someone you and say, "Now that you got this increased capacity, that's the person that's going to help you take your business from 1000 doors to 2000 or whatever." That that's not what I do. What I do is I help them create capacity on the calendar. To that aspect I just want to make sure I delineate myself there because I do work with a lot of individual investors. I also work with property managers and just helping them get their life back. That's one of the biggest things that I do. Jason: Love it. Mark, I appreciate you being on the show. Thanks for being here. Mark: This has been great. Thanks so much and my best wishes to all your listeners. Jason: Thank you. All right, we'll let Mark go. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to like and subscribe on whichever channel we're on. We're on YouTube, we are no iTunes, and make sure that you subscribe to our email newsletter. If you are property management entrepreneur that's wanting to grow your business, add doors, and increase your revenue, then please reach out to us over at DoorGrow. We'd be happy to have a conversation and see if you are a good fit for what we might be able to do for you. Of course, check out Mark and his business over at Landlord Coach. That's it for today. Until next time, to our mutual growth, everyone. Bye. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

How can you reduce the number of times you show a property? Virtual tours. It's time to weed out unnecessary in-person showings with time wasters and tire kickers. Today, I am talking to James Barrett of Tenant Turner, a leading property management tool and resource that lets property managers manage tenant leads, schedule showings, and automate the leasing process. You'll Learn... [02:59] Goal of Virtual Tours: Educate potential tenants before choosing to visit property. [03:27] Customer-Centric Concept: Virtual tours evolved from quality images to videos. [04:20] ROI: Reduced costs for video camera equipment make virtual tours possible. [07:40] Lack of competition makes virtual tours core to growth and promotion. [08:28] Direct correlation between virtual tours, time on market, vacancy, and showings. [08:53] Quality over Quantity: Maximize exposure to increase good-fit tenant leads. [13:37] Virtual tours take time and money. Are they worth it? Promoted? Required? [16:29] Record moves, maintenance, and inspections for marketing and leasing metrics. [21:08] Options and Recommendations: Zillow's 3D Home, zInspector, and Ricoh; or outsource and offload to PlanOmatic, VirtuallyinCredible, and HomeJab. Tweetables Listings with virtual tours increase interest by 250% and generate 49% more leads. One-third of Tenant Turner's customers do virtual tours; 11% of its listings include them. Do virtual tours. If you do, you'll be different, reduce vacancy, and make more money. About 45% of millennial renters seek virtual tour technology before making a decision. Resources Tenant Turner James Barrett's Email Matterport Zillow zInspector Apartments.com VirtuallyinCredible Ricoh National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) PlanOmatic HomeJab DGS 45: Automate Tenant Lead Management with James Barrett and Calvin Davis of Tenant Turner DGS 78: Automating Property Showings with Michael Sanz of Neesh Property DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest is my buddy James Barrett. James, how are you? James: Doing well, sir. Good to be back on the show. Jason: James and I were just in Nashville, at the Southern States Conference. We got to hang out afterwards and we went dancing. We went out on the town and it was crazy, wasn't it? James: It was a great time. Jason: It was a great time. James: Dance floors everywhere. Jason: The musicians and the talent. Yeah, it was crazy. It was a lot of fun. James: That's what I tell people about Nashville all the time, the worst musician in Nashville is better than every musician everywhere else, it seems like. Jason: I'm doing open mic night tomorrow night and everyone in Nashville's better than me, that's for sure. I'm taking the risk, I'm getting on stage. James: That's right, go out there. You can get a lot of practice behind the mic doing this podcast so it'll… Jason: I don't know if that's the same as singing with the guitar, but yeah. James: We'll see. Jason: We'll see. James, you've been on the show before, welcome back. I'm glad to have you here. In case anybody who's listening doesn't know James and they can't see his shirt because they're listening, he is part of a company called Tenant Turner, which consistently has been one of the top performing companies for vendors. In our Facebook group, we get a lot of positive feedback from clients on Tenant Turner. I'm glad to have you back on the show. Today, we're going to be talking about virtual tour technologies, what is that? James: For those of you who might be questioning, "Why is James from a scheduling software, where they do lock boxes and in person showing, why is he talking about virtual tours?" With virtual tours, the real goal is how can you reduce the number of showings that are happening because people are being educated before physically having to go to the property. Jason, as you alluded to with how highly we're rated within the Facebook group and what not, we are a very customer centric, customer driven organization. It is something that's come up, particularly more recently, is just the concept of virtual tours. Seeing the evolution of quality images, which was kind of the norm 5-10 years ago. Making sure you have quality, high definition images on your listings, to then moving more to a model of video tours, which is a form of virtual tours but really just the gateway of virtual tours where you're taking a video walking through the home. Now, more and more, we see customers who are adopting these 3D virtual tours like those that are provided by like Matterport. It's becoming very important within the industry because people are investing in this amount of time and effort into these virtual tours and they need to make sure they're seeing an ROI on that. Jason: Are they always seeing an ROI or is that a problem? James: It's been a problem largely because of the investment has always been so high, because one of the big companies that really got into the real estate market was Matterport, one that's very highly rated, but their cameras are $4000. Every property management company in the world might want to do a virtual tour, but at that price point, it's limited. What we've seen more recently is there's now lower cost 360 cameras that are used by not only Matterport, but companies like zInspector which are used by a lot of property managers for inspection software. Really, I think one of the big tipping points is Zillow, who recently came out with their own app that allows you to take a 360 virtual tours utilizing just an iPhone. You're starting to see that barrier to entry drop down pretty significantly but it's still early on in its adoption phases here. Jason: We've had some really great episodes for those listening, if they look at like that so we do with Michael Sanz. He talked a lot about how he's leveraged some of these cheaper cameras and took to offload and to reduce the number of showing significantly. Let's dig in, so how does this apply to Tenant Turner? James: One of the things we have is we have a nice, unique data set that tells us how many people are starting to adopt these types of virtual tours and put them in their listings. We started to see a nice little increase of such tours to date. Right now, it's only about 11% of our active listings, but just a couple years ago, sub 1%, sub 2%. It was really just in its infancy. We started to see faster adoption of virtual tours and one of the things that's also really interesting is 11% of our active rentals have virtual tours associated with them, but now a full third of our customers had at least one virtual tour. Companies in general are starting to adopt more and more of the virtual tours and basically building it to their process. Jason: Let's point this out, people that are using Tenant Turner are probably the more tech savvy, maybe more forthcoming property manager, I mean they're a little more forward thinking, is what I mean. They're early adopters and using your technology. You may have 11% and maybe 33% or whatever a third or have at least one but I would imagine outside Tenant Turner, the number has got to be way lower. This is still a huge differentiating factor for a management company that say, "Hey, we do these tours." It's probably really rare that people are going to bump into any competitors that are doing this yet. Even the people that are savvy enough to be using a scheduling software and showing software like Tenant Turner, only 11% of the properties it's really being used for. James: Yeah, and I think where there's a huge opportunity within the property management space, is now that some of these barriers have been brought down, making it core to your growth model being able to promote the fact that you do this. You actually have an artifact that is created that you can then share with the property owner, that's part of the whole thing, it's part of the inspection process. It's part of your now marketing material where you can say, "Look at these beautiful virtual tours that we're providing," that really nobody else in your market may be doing. Jason: Yeah and I'm sure there's a direct correlation between virtual tours, and time on the market, and vacancy, and not having to do showings and all of this. James: It's really interesting, there's a lot of similarities between Tenant Turner and our goals and what virtual tours do. With Tenant Turner, we want to make the process as streamlined as possible. On one hand we're generating more leads because we want to make sure we maximize our customer's exposure, but on the other hand, we want to eliminate anyone who's not a good fit. On the one side, we're a 24/7 service that can respond to the leads instantly, but on the other side, we have a pre qualification scoring tool that weeds out people who aren't a good fit. These virtual tours are kind of the same thing but for the other side of the market. With virtual tours, because you have a virtual tour on your listing, statistically it's going to get more page views. It's going to get more clicks. Apartments.com, they actually did a nice little study on this and it's something that they've started offering through their website is highlighting listings that have virtual tours. There's a 250% increase in time on page for a listing that has a virtual tour versus one that does not Jason: Okay, you said 250%? James: 250%, yep. You got to think too, a lot of these listing sites, they're very vanilla, you can go to Zillow or HotPads or apartments.com and it's pretty cookie cutter in a lot of ways. If you are able to provide a virtual tour and it gets pushed out to those different sites and they can put a little tag or icon next to it, it can go a long way into generating more clicks. Similar to Tenant Turner, they're trying to increase leads with virtual tours and we see more time on page. They've also seen a 49% increase in the number of leads. That's one of the goals of virtual tours is how can we get more leads into the top end of the funnel. At the same time, just like Tenant Turner, how we like to weed out people who aren't a good fit, the virtual tours are helping prospective tenants weed themselves out if they think that the place is a good fit for them. Jason: Right. Yeah, makes sense. James: More leads on one hand but at the same time better fit leads, so that way when it does get time for a showing, you'll ultimately have fewer showings at a particular property but it will be more people who are qualified… Jason: More relevant. James:…exactly, exactly. It's a quality over quantity type solution. Jason: Yeah, I mean relevancy is the crux of everything. It doesn't matter how great the property is or how many tenants you have going through it, if the showings aren't relevant or they're not interested. It allows them to filter it out. They can see the kitchen and say, "No, that's too small," or they can see the backyard, "That's not what I was hoping for." They just get a better feel for what it would like to be in it without having actually go and do it. If there is a virtual tour and somebody scheduled to showing they're probably fairly legit interested. They're probably seriously considering putting an application in on this place. They're probably ready to move. Whereas, instead of getting a whole host of tire kickers and time wasters. James: That's right. What we're seeing, the big thing right now in our industry is the movement to support self access viewings and whatnot. Within Tenant Turner, only a third of our properties are enabled for self access, because if you have an occupied property, if the owner won't allow self access to the particular property, if the price point's too low, you're still going to show and if the price points too high, you're still going to show it. This is a huge tool to help weed out unnecessary in-person showings. If you have your showing agent, like you said, driving around town interacting with all these different tire kickers who would've weeded themselves out of the process if they actually saw what it looked like from the curb, if they actually had an opportunity to see the size of the backyard and wouldn't fit their two or three dogs. If they saw the layout of it and they know they want an open floor plan, but then as soon as they walk in they see it's not an open floor plan, they're going to walk right back out. It is a huge opportunity to generate more leads because you've got people who are going to be more engaged with your listing, but then also allow them to self identify that it's really not a good fit for them based upon what they're seeing in the virtual tour. Jason: Yeah, I mean it's really difficult when you're just looking at a bunch of photos where you're just seeing an angle from one corner of a room, and that's all you see of each room. It's really hard to get perspective as a renter and you have no idea how these rooms kind of fit together, how that works and what the flow of the place would be like, so all that makes sense. How is Tenant Turner allowing people to get the virtual showings into the listings? James: Yeah, it was kind of a surprising thing that we saw come through our enhancements requests and whatnot, it was just really people—they're spending a lot of money. Whether they own their own Matterport camera or they're putting a lot of time into it and these virtual tours can take anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour to record. Some people like to go in at Matterport and do video editing or maybe they pay a service like VirtuallyinCredible to do virtual tour, where they stitch together the images for you and stuff like that. They're either putting in a lot of time or putting in a lot of money or effort or both. One of the downsides with a lot of these listing sites,and even with Tenant Turner for awhile was that you couldn't really put links in the description that were clickable that enabled that to be highlighted element. They came through in our enhancement request, just making sure that those things are being promoted appropriately that got Tenant Turner now their own section where people can watch tours. It highlights the fact that that particular listing has a tour versus the ones that do not. The links are in the descriptions, hyperlinks and clickable, which then engages a new window for them to be able to watch the tours before they go through and schedule a showing. Some of our customers, they even have custom questions built into the Tenant Turner Questionnaire that asks if they have viewed the tour. Jason: I was going to say, can they require in order to schedule a showing or even to do a self access, can you require them to confirm that they have seen the virtual tour so no time's wasted? James: Yeah and that's a huge thing. We've seen that in past questions that customers created. It was really like, "Have you driven through the neighborhood?" was kind of the beginning part of it, because they didn't want to meet somebody at a home that the person has no idea what the neighborhood is like, if it's going to be a good fit for them, have they driven by and seen the outside. Now we're starting to see more people do that with the virtual tours and say, "Have you watched the virtual tour?" If not, draw attention to it before they schedule an appointment, because if they're not satisfied with the virtual tour, they're not going to be satisfied with an in-person tour once they get to the property. Jason; Right. Very clever. What are some other ways that people are leveraging these or making sure that it's all tied together? You're at the forefront of seeing how people are reaching this stuff. I think that's a clever hack to require the virtual tour in some way or fashion. Are there any other things like that that you're noticing people are doing to facilitate this? James: Yes. I think one thing that's really interesting and really smart is particularly the cost of these cameras is dropping and there are more options for property managers than there's ever been before. As you're doing your move outs and some of the homes obviously, they're going to need some maintenance as you turn them over, and maybe a new coat of paint, a new carpet, whatever, but as you do your next move-in inspection, if you have a 360 camera for using the Zillow 3D Home app, if you're using your own iPhone in order to record your pictures and whatnot, use that next move-in inspection as an opportunity to not only record what the status of the home is before the new tenant moves in, but then use that as an opportunity for your marketing material too. A lot of these tools like Matterport for example if you use one of their cameras, it'll take all the pictures panoramic pictures for you, and then you can even take out specific 2D images and use those for your marketing materials too. Basically, if you have the right equipment and your budget allows for it, put the camera on the tripod, put it inside each room, it'll take stance of the entire room, it'll create a 3D floor plan, it'll create a dollhouse view of the home, and it will create all the individual images that you would need for your listings and for your inspection. Take that as an opportunity to combine the maintenance and loop-in element with the marketing elements so that you can have that 3D tour for that home in the future. Jason: Right. Then when your tenant puts a notice, you can start marketing the property right away, you can put it out there, you can put out the tour and everything else before, and you may be able to get the place rented before it's even vacant. James: Absolutely. That's another big benefit that some property managers are realizing with high quality virtual tours is that they can get the properties rented, sight unseen. If the virtual tour is good enough whether the person lives in town or not, if the property's occupied and they want to put it out there in the market, there's a higher likelihood that they'll have the home rented sight unseen with a high quality virtual tour. I think that's the goal. With Tenant Turner, we're trying to manage the leads and schedule the appointments to get people into the home, but ultimately what we're trying to do is streamline the leasing process. If we can help minimize the number of showings to help minimize the amount of back and forth that goes on with these virtual tours, maybe even prevent somebody from going to a property altogether, it's a win-win. Jason: The property managers that are not doing this stuff, if they're tracking their metrics, and they're tracking their average time to get things rented out, their time on market, some of these variables, and then they start using maybe Tenant Turner to start using maybe self access, maybe start using virtual 360 cameras and tours, and all this, they probably will see a dramatic difference. To be able to say in a sales presentation to a prospective owner, "Hey, this is where we were before, like all the companies out there, and here's where we're at now, and what we've noticed," it's such a huge differentiator in selling point. Even a month of vacancy, even a couple weeks of vacancy can be pretty expensive. In some markets, that could be thousands of dollars depending on the property. James: Yeah. It's just another kind of tool in the tool belt. I think a big thing is some of the concepts from virtual tours and I think something like Matterport too, just because the cost has been so high, you can get into doing virtual tours relatively easier now because of the Zillow's 3D home app, you can do it now just with the quality of phones being able to take your own panoramic pictures. I know a lot of people out there, they're using tools like zInspector already for their home inspections, but they also offer a virtual tour tool. There's a lot more out there now than there's ever been before and I think the property managers who are willing to take that leap into putting a little bit of extra effort into it, and putting a little bit of extra time in it, they're going to be the ones to receive the biggest returns by reducing their vacancy, reducing their rent loss to vacancy, but then also like you said, being able to inject those core metrics back into their value prop to their customers. Jason: Between you and me, because it's just you and me right now, just us, if you're hanging out with one of your buddies that runs a property management company and they're like, "Hey, what should I use? What camera should I get? I've got your system Tenant Turner." What would your go to recommendation be right now? James: I think the Zillow thing is really intriguing because it's free, but for all of us in the industry, Zillow, they're kind of a… Jason: It makes everyone scared. We're all afraid of Zillow. James: Exactly. Jason: We're all watching Zillow, but we're all a little bit afraid. James: With Zillow, I mean they own and control your data because you're recording it in their app, you're uploading it to their servers, and I know a lot of people in this industry, they're thinking at the back of their mind, "It's just a matter of time before I've uploaded this to their servers for free and then they're going to take me out of the process completely because now they have my virtual tour." I would say, the Zillow one is appealing because of the cost, it costs nothing to do it, but I do think for property managers who are a bit more sophisticated and a bit more in the know in the industry, and maybe have some fears of Zillow and for good reason, there's a couple of hundred dollar camera, a RICOH camera which is a reputable brand. It works with zInspector, it works with Matterport, you can use it with either one of those products and probably a couple of others, and that's a great place to be able to create these beautiful 360 panoramic vantage points of the rental property. This is what we saw in the data that we looked at, a third of our customers are doing virtual tours, but only 11% of our listings have virtual tours. The higher end properties or maybe some of your smaller multifamily that you can reuse the layout or use a virtual tour across multiple units, that's where you're also going to get the most bang for your buck. I think as time goes on, maybe we're not quite there yet where this is going to be a ubiquitous part of everybody's process, you can use it as an upsell to an owner, you can use it as something particular for those higher end listings. You tell somebody and say, "Hey, you have a top tier property, you have a beautiful space, and I want to be the property manager for you, and this is how I'm going to do it." That's part of a way you can help win that management agreement. I don't think it has to be something that's used all the time by every property out there. I think that's a good way to overcome it. If you don't have a camera and you want to test the waters, the RICOH cameras, and there are a couple of them out there, but they're more like $400 versus the Matterport's $4000. It's a good way to test it out and see if it's a good fit for your organization. To your point earlier is it going to positively impact your key metrics, are you going to see a reduction in your days vacant, are you going to see a reduction of your time on market, are you going to see an increase in either maybe an additional fee or more management contracts because you offer this, and nobody else in your market does. Jason: Say you've got a $20 an hour employee that's helping do some of this stuff, whatever. If it's a $400 camera and if it saves you 20 hours ever at $20 an hour, you've broken even on the camera. I would imagine, what is that, 20 showings maybe, or trips out to a place, or whatever. I think it's a no brainer. You could probably justify the $4000 camera if you needed two guys or gals, but $400 is pretty easy to start with. James: Exactly. We have seen with some of the bigger groups, particularly property managers who are tied into larger real estate offices that primarily focus on sales, they tend to have access to the Matterport cameras because these Matterport cameras have taken off more on the for sale side. That's another thing. Whether it's within the NARPM world or within your just local real estate group, you may have a friend that has one. Whether or not they let you borrow their $4000 camera... Jason: Rent it. James: Rent it, that's an option. There are services too, depending upon what you think your choke point is, but there's tools out there or services out there. PlanOmatic is one, Zillow also offers their own network of professional photographers that have access to the 3D tour technology. PlanOmatic is in partnership with Matterport. HomeJab is another new one that has 50 offices nationwide. If your issue is getting somebody to go to the property, take pictures and do the editing, PlanOmatic, HomeJab, those tools are in place. Those services are offered. Jason: You can offload it. James: Exactly. Think about what's the most appropriate part of the process to potentially outsource. VirtuallyinCredible, they do a good job in creating virtual tours that can then be promoted through your various listings, and websites, and whatnot. If you have an editing, if that's where your constraint is, you don't feel like you have the time or talent to do it, there's another place where you can offload and outsource that component to it. You should be doing it, and if you do it, you will differentiate yourself to make more money and reduce your days vacant, so it makes sense to do it, but if you have hesitancies around buying a camera, then borrow one, or use one of these services, or go the Zillow route. If you can overcome that hurdle and your concern is really around editing, and formatting, and getting it to the appropriate level, you can use another one of those services like VirtuallyinCredible who can piece it all together for you, but any stage of the game where you think you have hesitancy or you're resistant to taking it on, there are opportunities to buy equipment or utilize an existing service who's an expert in it. Jason: Perfect. I think you've sold people on the idea of virtual tour technologies. Anything else that that they should know about this that you're seeing from your 30-foot view with all the different property management companies that you're helping them with the leasing side? James: Yeah. I would say one thing to add is that some people might be listening to this saying, "We don't really need to do that, the technology is not there yet," at least be thinking about this, whether you look at strategic components every quarter, or every year, or whatever, because one of the big statistics that came out of some of the research done by apartments.com and Zillow is, about 45% of millennial renters are really leaning into virtual tours before they make a decision. If you don't think the stats are compelling, if you don't want to try it, just know that the largest group of renters that continues to expand within the markets that we serve, they are looking for this type of technology. Again, it's something that you can use to help sell to your owners, but as you look at quality tenants, this is something that those folks are going to be looking for, and they'll look past your listings eventually if this is not going to be there. Be ready. Jason: I would wager to say there might be a correlation between the most tech savvy of renters and the safest ones to be placing into properties. It might help you attract better tenants. Maybe. James: Yeah, I agree. Jason: Psychologically, it seems sound to me, but who knows. James, it was really cool to have you here again. I don't know when the next conference is but we'll have to go dancing again. James: That's right. Jason: With all our homies. To be clear, it's not just Jason and I dancing. Jason: No, we're not dancing together. James: Good times. Jason: You're married, but I'm single again, so I can pick up… James: I could be your wingman. Jason: You'll be my wingman, I could use a wingman. James: I got you covered. Jason: Alright, well hey, it's really good to see you again. James, it's really good to see you again. I love what you guys are doing at Tenant Turner. I appreciate you coming on the show and how could people get in touch with Tenant Turner? James: Yeah, if you guys ever need any help with your showings, software, lock boxes, or locks, or ever just a resource to chat with as you can tell, we're really into the data, we're really into the industry, and we want to be of service to folks. You can reach me at james@tenantturner.com. Definitely come to our website. We've got a live chat feature. Anytime you want to speak with somebody, we have folks standing by all US based who would love to hear from you. Come on through. Jason: I saw your Instagram. I'm going to let you get another quick plug here. You have some new lock boxes that you guys are doing now? James: That's right, yes. One of the big and exciting things that we've been rolling out, we've been doing it in a slow launch and actually Calvin, he owns his own property management company, Keyrenter Richmond. He was one of our guinea pig customers. We put new lock boxes on his property. They're SentriLock lock boxes, SentriLock's a wholly owned subsidiary of the National Association of Realtors. It is an extremely high quality lock box with the six year warranty. For anybody who has had a desire to experiment with self access but maybe was hesitant because of the lock boxes, what we have now is top tier and will last you a good long time and help prevent you from having to go to those properties showings yourself. Jason: Perfect, awesome. Alright, cool. Well James, thanks again for coming on and I will let you go. James: Cool, thank you, Jason, it was a pleasure. Jason: Alright, so great to see him again and have him on the show. Check out Tenant Turner at tenantturner.com and if you are [...] business feel free to reach out. Test your website at doorgrow.com/quiz. Test your website out. See if it's effective, and if not, you maybe want to talk with us and that might help you realize there's that leak, but you probably have several other leaks that we can help you with in your sales pipeline. Our goal is to show up trust, show up those leaks because trust is the speed in which you're able to get clients on close deals and grow your company. That's what we specialize in is helping maximize trust and organic growth and we're on lead generation at DoorGrow. With that I will let everybody have an awesome day, let everybody go and until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.

Property management businesses always want and need products and services to be profitable and grow doors. That's why many of them choose the user-friendly residential rental property management software for single-family properties called, Propertyware. Today, I am talking to Inaas Arabi, Vice President (VP) of Single Family Rental and General Manager (GM) of Propertyware. He understands the importance of developing new and innovative ways to help property managers attain profitability and growth. You'll Learn... [04:37] Past and Present Perception of Propertyware: Before becoming GM, Inaas was a customer because of ability to customize system based on business models. [06:38] Who uses Propertyware? Typically, larger companies wanting to scale and grow. [07:45] Room to Grow: Never buy a solution for where your business is today; always buy a solution for where you want it to be. [09:50] Directions for Growth: Add units by differentiating services via customization and special offers. Increase revenue per door by offering add-on products and services. Reduce expenses via automation for manual and repetitive tasks. [20:33] Propertyware stands behind its platform; serves as business advisor, not only technology provider, to solve pain points. [23:54] Facilitating Future Integrations: Freedom to connect with third-party tools, vendors, and services. [27:40] API Connections and Challenges: Propertyware provides two-way data exchange that's maintained in one system. [34:50] Status of Property Management Industry: Advocate, educate, and train others on legislation and awareness to protect tenants and landlords. [45:38] Should you switch software? Break up dysfunctional system to experience freedom by having good data, building relationships, and improving processes. Tweetables Never buy software for where you're at today; always buy software for where you want to be. Pick property management software that you can live with for the long-term to grow. Automate mundane tasks performed by property managers via software. Kiss of death is double entry and manual input. Resources Inaas Arabi on LinkedIn Propertyware HubSpot Zapier Tenant Turner Property Meld Renter, Inc. Rent Manager ShowMojo Rently Rentec AppFolio Buildium DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, I'm hanging out with, Inaas Arabi. Inaas: Yes. Jason: Did I say it right? Inaas: Yes, you sure did. Thank you. Jason: All right. Inaas, I'm excited to have you on the show. We have not yet had Propertyware on the show and Inaas is from Propertyware. Inaas: Yes I am. Jason: Tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into the space of property manager first and then let's get into maybe Propertyware a bit and talk about growth. Inaas: Awesome. I do want to first of all say that I'm a door hacker as well, so thank you for having me on, I'm excited. I came in mostly from the operational background. I started a company from scratch, operated and built it a little bit to over 1700 doors and then I sold it to a national player, then I went to work for the second largest owner and operator in the single family industry, American Homes for Rent. I worked for them for a while. I was their Midwest regional director of ops. We've done a lot of great things there. We took the company public. I left that and went to work for a company called the Altisource, which deals with banks and REITs and does a very similar thing to third party property management or property managers but on a different scale mostly for the banks and the financial industry. Operated a very large portfolio over 35 states and after that I got recruited by RealPage to be able to become the single family vice-president for them as well as general manager for Propertyware. Now, the reason why I think Propertyware would be a great choice for somebody like me and for a lot of operators is because you're able to take somebody like me with my experience and put him into the seats where we can make decisions that would actually help the property managers with their day-to-day lives. That's the difference that we're trying to go after compared to some of the other systems, is that we really want to build things that would be usable and would make an impact for people's businesses. I know we are going to talk about growth here in a little bit, but that is really the approach that we're going with Propertyware since I came in. We are building enhancements that allows people to grow in multiple different ways. They grow by adding units, which is what you talked about as far as being a door hacker. Number two, you grow by increasing your revenue by making more money per door. Then number three, you also went to grow financially by reducing expenses while keeping everything the same, so that would allow you to be able to have a much better financials or higher NOI's for your property, since you're an owner or operator. That's really the goal. That's the approach that we're taking upon with Propertyware since I've started to them. I started Propertyware late January of this year. Jason: Okay. This is kind of new for you, the Propertyware thing. Inaas: Yes, it is. I mean, you can say it's new. I've been there since January so depending on how you take a look at it. Jason: You're halfway through… Inaas: Yeah, you're right. I'm definitely halfway through a year, yes, but I'm not new… Jason: You're 0.5 years at Propertyware right now. Inaas: Yes, it is. Jason: I mean that's two quarters. That's enough time to… Inaas: Make a change, yes. Jason: Make some changes. So, what was your perception of Propertyware before you came in versus now? Inaas: I was a customer of Propertyware when I was working with Altisource. We ran a set of very complicated and very large portfolio, a little over 10,000 units over 35 states, and we did it through Propertyware. One thing that I always appreciated about Propertyware was the ability to customize and the ability to be able to build unique or redo the system around your uniqueness as a business model. Now, I think that also causes people to be more afraid of the technology because there is not a very easy systematic streamlined way of doing things on Propertyware. You have multiple ways of doing things. It's built as such to be able to allow people the ability to customize based on the business model. Having that I've been working for Propertyware, before I found it to be a very interesting point as a customer, it was very good for me, but when I moved in to being in the seat of making changes, I didn't realize that this is an intentional thing that we're doing where we are able to keep the business and keep the platform customizable by the business model. Now, I would also say that that will make some people be very hesitant into looking into Propertyware because they're afraid of how customizable the system could be. That could also take you into a lot of what I would call rabbit holes, meaning, if you've got 20 ways to be able to do something, sometimes you give way too many options for some people that would allow you to take out the simplicity aspect of it or the easiness aspect of it. Overall, really what I appreciate the most as customization, if I want to have to sum it up down to one thing. Jason: The perception that I've always had about Propertyware is I've noticed that a lot of the larger companies, the companies that really are folks on scale, that they tend to use Propertyware. Propertyware seems to be very scalable. It seems much more of an enterprise solution than a lot of the other property management software out there. That's kind of the perception that I've noticed. I have lots of clients that have used Propertyware. I noticed usually the guys with thousands of doors are using Propertyware. Inaas: We do have people from different levels of where they're at. Now, to your point, sometimes it's very difficult and I struggle with this myself as well, it's really very difficult to be able to equate the number of units for your business to how complicated of a process you're running. We come across some people that they maybe only running 200 units, but they have some of the most complex processes that I've seen and the opposite is very true. It's really more about how customizable are you ready to look in to be able to build for your business. The one thing that I would always say, you never buy software for where you at today, you should always be buying software to where you want to be. It's almost like when you're talking to trainers that they always say, "You don't want to be the guy or the person who's playing today. You really want to be playing to what you want yourself to look like after you win or at the winning table," and that's really where it comes in to be. If you're thinking you want to grow and you want to have a system that grows with you, scales with you, that allows you to be able to do different things in many different ways, Propertyware certainly will be it. Now, I would also say, you do have to be willing to take on this opportunity to be able to build things that will be customizable for you, so you can get the best advantage. Jason: This is the feedback that I've noticed about Propertyware. What he says is absolutely true. If you're going to pick a property management software solution or any solution for your business, you want to pick a solution that is going to give you room to grow into for whatever size you imagine because it's not easy to switch property management software. Anybody that's done it that switched from one to the other because they thought the grass would be greener on the other side, usually regrets it and it's not been so comfortable. I agree, pick a software that you feel like you can live with in the long term. Inaas: What you're saying is absolutely true. It's really about jumping from one system to the next is not an easy task. I do recognize that you do have to put in a lot of effort into that, but you do need to find something that would scale with you for the long term, not for where you are today. That's the beauty about finding that system and being able to grow with it as you go. We've seen a lot of great companies have grown with us over the years and have done wonderful things as far as that goes. Jason:: Let's get into growth. The topic is growth via Propertyware. How does Propertyware help somebody grow or what are we chatting about here? Inaas: Like I said, the approach for us since I've got into Propertyware is the fact that we're building enhancements that would allow people to grow in all of those three directions. I'm going to give you specific examples because I know you like that. Number one. Growth, in my opinion, is adding units. How do you add units? You help PMCs differentiate their services and do things where they can go out there and put themselves in front of the right people that they're looking for their services. As an example, I know you guys offer wonderful websites offering, which is great. One way that we can help is we do provide our clients what we call a listing widget that they can plug in anywhere on the website. This way, you as a website provider don't have to build it for them. It defeats all the information directly from the Propertyware property management software. All of the vacancies, the rent price, the number of bedrooms, bathrooms, pictures and all that are all within that listing widget. Then we make it so customizable to the point where people are able to do some awesome things with it. An awesome thing would be, for example, you can add on banners at their specific workflow. For example, you can put in a banner that says, "Only make that banner available over the weekend to make a weekend offer," so you can say, "Come take a look at my house that I have for rent and you're going to get $100 off if you look at it between Friday and Sunday," or "If you look at it between the 1st and the 15th." You can do things like, "We're looking for awesome owners like yourselves. Click on this link to be able to see our offering." You could do things like the workflow, like once a property has an approved applicant for it, then you would automatically take it off the listing so this way you don't have to do anything with that manually. You could also do it where you can add a lot of information in the description for that property and one thing I teach people to do and I'm sure you'd like that, Jason, is the fact that for every listing that you put in out there for rent at the bottom of the description for that listing, you should take a couple of lines and you should type in information about your services with the link to the website that will take people on to a full offering of those services. Because we know when people go out to look for properties, rental properties on the market, majority of them will be renters, but some are not necessarily renters. Some of them might be owners that they're looking to comp out their property to figure out what the other properties in the area are renting for or they might be asset managers that [...] ability to put yourself in front of those guys while they're searching for properties. It's very unique. It doesn't cost you any extra. It's part of the listing widget that allows you to plug and play and do it as you go. This is one example of an enhancement that does help for the unit growth. There is plenty more, I don't think I have enough time to be able to share all of them because I want to talk about other items that are important. The second element we talked about, which is adding revenue or increasing your revenue, making it where instead of making $1000 per door, you go up to $1500 per door, you go up to $2000, $3000, whatever you feel like it's the right level that you want to go to. How do we do that? We do that by offering ancillary products that could make sense for the property managers but they're also integrated within the system so this way, they don't have to do anything offsite the system. The beauty about that is you get the beauty of getting something that is offered, make some money on it without adding too much expenses on your end from an HR or an employee perspective. Some examples with that would be asset protection or our renter's insurance. I know some other software do offer that. The reason why I mentioned it is because between Propertyware and some of the other systems is the fact that we really want to make sure that it's fully integrated within our system. The tenant will have a very seamless experience when they're selecting the process or selecting the product and they were going through it, and then also the PMC will have a very seamless experience. Last but not the least, if there is an owner involved, that owner will also have a very seamless experience. As an example of the asset protection, it's a checkbox and then you can select whether it's paid for by the owner or paid for by the tenant. You can put in whatever extra fee that you would want to add on as a PMC as your profit margin, and then you can apply either to a tenant ledger or to an owner ledger depending on who's paying for it, and you do all of that very seamlessly with a couple of clicks. If you do enough of those, you start seeing a little bit of an increase of revenue in per door that you're having. Some of the other products that were also migrating or integrating within our system would be things like utility management which is I think we're one of the only system that I know of that offer something like that. Utility management in single family has not been a revenue center for a long time, but I think that is changing with all of the legalities where it's forcing either the owner or the property management company to keep a lot of utilities in their names so you don't have any off and on for all the tenants when they leave or when you have a new tenant moving in. If you are a PMC and you're going to have to manage that for the owner, we believe you do it with ease, but you should charge a fee to be able to do that and you can apply for that again either on the tenant ledger or on the owner ledger—depending on who's paying for it—and you make a little bit of money on it. That's the examples of how do we help increase revenue for our PMCs. The last type of growth that I want to talk about which is very near and dear to my heart is the profit growth by reducing your expenses. In my opinion, you reduce your expenses by doing automation. Now automation, certainly I'm not suggesting that you exchange relationships or conversations with owners and tenants with technology, but what you do, if you take a look at a lot of repetitive elements that we do every day in property management, you should automate those or you should look into making them systematic, so this way you're not spending a lot of time doing what [...] specific example here. Since I came in to Propertyware, we sat down and we looked at all the processes that our PMCs go through. From renewals, to leasing, to signing of a lease, to maintenance, to all of the big processes. Our goal was to be able to build or educate our PMCs on the best automated way to be able to do a process from A-Z, for the best results, for the cheapest cost as far as HR, and for the highest profit margin. I can tell you, we've gotten rave reviews from our clients when they've seen what we've put together. We have what we call road shows which is more of events that we put out in some certain cities in the United States and we invite our clients and prospects to come out to see us and see what we have going and what we're working on. We share with them for example the renewal process that we build together for them. Now, the beauty about why this is important, why I talk about it, we actually talk about both sides of the spectrum here. We talk about the setup, how you can setup Propertyware for full automation, as well as the actual process of how you run it from a systematic perspective and from an operational perspective. By the time you leave, if you have been a little bit hesitant about how do I work Propertyware to my advantage, you already know how you set it up, and you already know how to work the process itself. We've had customers where they came back and they reported that their renewal rate was at 60%-70%, now they are close to 80%. As a matter of fact, I was talking to a client a little bit earlier today and they quoted 79.83% renewal rate from, I think it was close to 71% or 72%. That's a huge movement. Now, why that's important for PMCs, that's a differentiator for you as well as a service. When you go talk to owners and you say, "I am able to get 80% of people to renew, that speaks volumes to the owners and allows them to see the benefit of working with you compared to working with somebody else who does not have a high renewal rate. Did I explain it to you well as far as all the different types of growth and how we calculate what kind of enhancements we use for each one of them? Jason: Yeah, absolutely. All of these things make sense and I love the idea that you're taking a look at the challenges that the property managers are facing internally when it comes to their operations to facilitate that with the software, to make that faster, to make that more simple versus all the manual stuff. Property managers do a lot of manual stuff. Inaas: They sure do. Jason: The more that you can pull into that software, the better. A lot of people a lot of times, they're turning to lots of different systems to try and systemize their business outside of their accounting solution and that can get cumbersome at times. Inaas: Yeah and the renewal process that we put together for full automation, we've got a little over 20 contact steps, where if you're doing this manually, you would need about 20, a little bit over 20 steps to be able to go through the entire process. We're talking steps from talking to the tenants and making sure that they want to renew, then again talking to the owner is making sure you agree on pricing, making sure you come back and you talk to the tenant and you send them a lease and you follow up on the lease and you do all of that back and forth. We changed that down to the point where we're able to do the entire thing with about six or seven touches. Six to seven touches in my opinion compared to over 20, does saves you so much time and so much effort that allows you to really concentrate on building the relationship instead of losing the time doing mundane task that you should be automating. In my opinion, that's how you grow, you grow by taking all of those mundane tasks, automate them, take those out of your way, and then concentrate on building the relationship, whether it's with the owners or with tenants themselves. Jason: Yeah, makes sense. All right, cool. Is there anything else that you want people to know about Propertyware while I've got you here? Inaas: Absolutely. There is a lot of things that I want to people to know about Propertyware but few things come to mind right off the bat. One, that we do stand behind all of our clients and we do appreciate the relationships that we have with them. Also, if you can imagine, we're taking a different approach by becoming more of our business advisors to our PMCs, not just a technology provider. A lot of times, you come across a lot of great technologies, but if you don't know how to take that technology and apply it into your day-to-day operations, that technology really failed because it's not really allowing you to get what you'd want out of it. Think about text messaging when it came out, for example. If people didn't try it, didn't perfected it, didn't figure out what to do with it, we wouldn't have had such a great success with it today. The same effort would be with our platform. We wanted to educate people. We want to make a business partnership with them, to be able to tell him how to do it, what do they do with it, and how they can use it to be able to get best results from all the aspects that we talked about. That's one. Number two, I also want them to know that we are property managers, building stuff for property managers. We're not technologists, we're just building things in a vacuum, and really building it from the perspective of we know where their pain points are, we've been through it, whether it's myself or somebody on my staff, we know what your folks, the people that's hearing us today are going through and because of that, my goal is to be able to build things to solve those issues for them, to solve those pain points. Now, sometimes we have to take them in steps, but at the end of the day we are solving those pain points. For example, we rolled out our text messaging feature earlier this year and for fairness sake it was what I would call the basic features of being able to communicate back and forth via text messaging. In order for us to take that to the next level, we're also working on enhancements now that would allow us to do the multi-level, the multimedia, as well as the group texting, and things like categorize station for all of the text. This way, our PMCs could take a text and apply it toward somebody specific, whether it's an owner or tenant. They can also do group texting. They can also do multimedia, so they can send a picture, send a file, and do all of that all within one centralized communication command, if you call it that, within the system, so it's not anywhere off the system. Then, last but not least, I think we've talked very greatly about growth, but what I really want people to know, your listeners, is that if you're looking for a scalable system that has a lot of potential for you, that would allow you to be able to do a lot of customization for your business based on your business needs, then you should look into Propertyware and you should evaluate it as an opportunity as an option for you. Now, it may fit then that's fantastic, it may not and that's okay, but at the end of the day you should really evaluate it to figure out if it's a good fit for you or not. Jason: You're talking about what you guys are doing internally. One of the big questions I know a lot of my clients have, a lot of listeners have that's really hot on the tip of the tongue of most property managers nowadays is integrations. That's freedom to connect with third party tools, vendors, different services. Maybe you can touch on an API, what you guys have maybe going on there, and how you guys are kind of facilitating integrations with third parties. Inaas: Yeah. That's such a fantastic point, I'm so glad that you actually brought that up. Propertyware's current approach is that we are offering a two-way data exchange [...] an API that allows people to be able to connect to their property management software. They can connect almost anything and everything that they would like to do. In my view, we want to provide people the opportunities to make a choice or pick the right option that fits for their business model. There is a lot of great things that we offer. If it fits your business model, if it fits your needs fantastic, use it. If you have something else that you'd like to use, connect it to property management software so you don't have to double entry anything. To me, the kiss of death is double entry and the kiss of death is any manual input that you put into either your staff or yourself, because somebody's going to make a mistake with that manual entry and somebody's going to cause you havoc later, even if it's not happening today. That's as far as the API. Now, I know on other webcast, Jason, you did ask about things like I think the place was, remind me again, was HubSpot or something like that, where you're able to connect Propertyware to everything else that it's out there as far as softwares… Jason: That was Zapier. Inaas: …yes, Zapier, thank you. I appreciate that. We actually looked into that and we're talking to them now about getting our platform on their site to be able to have full integrations with everything that they've done. You could do this yourself today, meaning if you have access to the API, you can take API, you can plug it into whatever other software that you'd want to plug it into, whether it's CRM, whether it's an inspection product, whether it's a [...] product, typically anything and everything that has got API, you can connect it to do. Jason: If you're nerdy enough or you pay enough money to get somebody nerdy enough to do it. Inaas: True. I mean, you do have to have a developer to be able to take a look at it. This is not something that's geared toward a property manager to be doing it themselves, that's for sure. Jason: That's why there's Zapier. The Zapier is very cool because it allows a somewhat normal person—you have to be a little bit nerdy, let's be honest—to do it without having to know code. You can create connections between tools and systems, so if you guys are working on that, I'll be really excited to hear when you guys have that ready. Inaas: Yeah, absolutely. You're definitely correct, it does need a little bit of development resources to be able to do the API, that's for sure, but remember though, Jason, once you do it once, you've got it, meaning you don't have… Jason: You don't have to do it over again. Inaas: Exactly. You don't have to go do connection every day, meaning if you've got five products that you're working on plus your property management software, you connect them all at once and you're done. You may have to do maintenance every once in awhile like if something is changed on your property management software or if you change your business model, if you do different things, you make maintenance changes, but it's not as big of a change once you've done it once. It's really more of an initial step and once you go through that initial step, you're good to go. However, I would also say, we're also one of the very few systems that offer two-way data exchange. Some other systems would offer data out and they call that API, but that's really not an API. An API should be a two-way data exchange, where you can take data out of your system and you can put data back into your system. If you can't do that, you can't really call it API but that's again [...] view at this point. I have seen some of our customers do some awesome things with the API connections. Those API's might have where they take information out of Propertyware, they go do something else with it and then go back and feed it back into Propertyware to be able to have one system through which is Propertyware for them. At the end of the day, you would want to connect everything you're working on with your property management software, so you're not having to enter anything manually. Jason: One of the challenges with API's is that you've got two pieces a software there communicating and if either one of them makes changes it can break that connection like something happens, that's what's I think is really important for the different vendors and property management software to create relationships where somebody's maintaining this. For example, if Tenant Turner was working with Propertyware or if Property Meld was working the Propertyware, if one of these vendors a lot of people are really enjoying, if they're helping to maintain that connection, then the business owner doesn't have to keep that working or make sure that it's working. Inaas: It's also fair and I'm again [...] and we have a list of companies that we're actually working with to be able to have direct integrations with, you've mentioned Property Meld for example, that's one of our success stories with the API. We have a full integration with them, they'll tell you the same thing as well. The beauty about that is somebody could do the maintenance within Property Meld and then they can make the payment out of their Propertyware system with ease without any complications. It also allows you to do back and forth between the two systems, so if you have a work order that came in from a tenant, you can feed into Property Meld and vice versa as well. Having that we have the API, that's what allowed us to be able to do that. There is a list of companies that we're going through to be able to do direct integration with. I think RentersInc is one of the people here, they're putting in chats. We've been working with them on a direct integration of the API. I think they're almost there, they're about 95% there to it. To me, it's all about providing opportunities for our PMCs to be able to take advantage of what the technology could do for them. That's what we're embarking upon. That's what we are going to do. And if you stay tuned, you're going to get a lot of great news about us connected with a lot of different vendors that does different things for our PMCs. The idea is, again to your point, we maintain the connection, so the PMC doesn't have to. If they wanted to go elsewhere like for example somebody wants to go to a different maintenance provider Property Meld is not what they want to use, they can still use the API to be able to make the exact same connection the Property Meld is made with Propertyware, if they have an access to the API. Jason: Yeah, makes sense. I love the idea of direct integrations. I love the idea of having an open API. I love the idea of you helping them to systemize your business internally, leveraging your software. These are all powerful tools for them. One of the main things you have mentioned at the beginning, is to lower expenses and all of these things is going to lower the level of communication, which lessens the amount of time in man-hours and manual stuff that has to happen. That's the biggest expense in property management is staff, it's people, it's those resources and that allows them greater leverage so that they can get more done without having to throw money at bodies constantly in order to get everything done. Property management is not a cheap business to run for a lot of people, so margins matter quite a bit. Inaas: It was quite interesting to me once I came on to work for Propertyware because I went out and talked to a lot of clients and again I'm an operator, so I understand what people are going through and I remember when I ran my own company, it was really more throwing bodies at it all the time. The difference though in today's world that is very different than when I ran my own company, is today you have options for technologies that could fulfill those tasks that people were doing for you before. Back when I ran my own company, those options were not even available. For example, if you recall back in the day when we were doing inspections on pen and paper or via pen and paper, everybody would take a piece of paper and a list of items or questions and you just fill amount while you're going through the property doing inspection. Today, you do most of your inspections via mobile technology on mobile devices and with mobile templates. The beauty about that is that saved you the ability or the need to have someone that is actually sitting down and writing down information on a piece of paper and they're transcribing them back into your property management software. If you have the integration correctly, you go from mobile inspection tool to the inspection report directly into your property management. We're working on something that we're just actually going to roll out here tomorrow, which is enhancements for our evaluation module. It allows people to be able to do multiple inspections and then match them column by column for every time you've done inspection. Think of when you go out and you do a move in inspection, you do a midyear inspection, you do a move out inspection, and then you're seeing all of those inspections in front of you matched line item by line item, so you know what the kitchen looked like when you did the move-in, you know what the kitchen looks like when you did a midyear inspection and you absolutely you know what the kitchen looks like when somebody moved out If you can show some damages that the tenant have caused that home, there is never a question anymore about who caused it because you have such an access to data and information that is beyond anyone's ability to be able to dispute it in court. Again, that's the beauty about the technology and the use of technology in today's market compared to what was before. Jason: Yeah. Technology certainly is changing quite a bit. I think here in the US, we're in the forefront of what's happening technologically in property management, even if we are maybe behind other countries in terms of how well-developed or how familiar people are with property management. It's exciting to see what you guys are doing. Before we wrap this up is there anything else anybody should know about Propertyware and how can they get in touch with you guys? Inaas: I appreciate that. What I would like to do though is I do want to talk a little bit about the industry in general because I want to take this platform as a way for us to be able to educate and train. I do believe that our industry and to your point earlier some other countries have this property management business defined a little bit better and it's a little bit more integrated within day in and day out lives of people, so it's looked at a very different. Jason: There's probably two things, maybe just more legislation surrounding it and maybe just more awareness in those markets. Inaas: Awareness is really a good word. Thank you. The reason why I mentioned that is I truly believe that our industry has been under attack this year and is probably going to be continuing on ongoing under attack from almost everywhere. Whether it states that they're changing the rules, whether it's businesses that they're changing the rules, whether it's somebody else is changing the rules. The problem with it is I think we're so defragmented to the point that we lost the ability to stand up for ourselves as an industry. [...] I can give you of states changing the rules on the fly and make it miserable for our PMCs to be able to operate. Not to single them out, but I'm going to make an example of the State of New York. They just rolled out a brand new law about that the tenant protection law, that's what they call it. The effect of those things that they put into the… Jason: Protecting the tenants from the big bad evil landlord. Inaas: Yes, exactly. Part of it, for example, you can't charge more than $20 for application fee. You can't even call it an application fee, you have to call it something else. If the customer or if the tenant brings you a copy of an old credit report, you typically have to accept it and not charge him anything if you're going to go screen them through your ways. You can imagine the complexity that this is putting on our PMCs in the State of New York and they're not the only state. I know some other states and they're changing things, changing rules. The reason why I say all of this is I do have an ask for all of us as property managers and the ask is, let's really get together. Let's support the organizations that support us. I don't want to make this a pitch for any specific organizations that are very well known in our industry, that are usually a couple, two or three, but let's support them to be able to have a voice, so they can stand on our behalf against some of these things that are happening to our industry. Let's really truly do a good job making sure that we're providing the utmost best customer experience, the best customer service that we can provide, because that is the only savior for us to where the public is going to realize that we have value and what we do has value and they're going to continue on working with us and our business is going to continue to grow. That's as far as the industry. I really wanted to make sure that I put that plug in there. You asked me about Propertyware, I think we've talked… Jason: To touch on that I want to agree with you on that. Property management is really in its infancy I think here in the US in terms of awareness and perception. Every property management business owner is either an advocate for the industry or they're hurting the industry. We all need to be advocates for the industry and we also need to educate. We need to educate because I think if a lot of these laws wouldn't exist or they would be very different if property managers had input, because they know what works in the real world. They know what needs to happen. They do want to protect the interests of the tenant and the owner. When things get skewed, when the pendulum swings all the way away from the owner's interests or the landlord's interest just towards what serves the needs and interests of the tenants, eventually it's not really going to end up serving the needs of the tenants. It creates some sort of imbalance that is going to hurt tenants in the long run. That's generally just always going to be true when something isn't right, or isn't fair, or isn't just. Inaas: I totally agree 100% and I think you hit the nail on its head with the education. I do also feel that we should educate everybody that we come across with. Whether it's our tenants, whether it's our owners, whether it's somebody else that we're dealing with our vendors. One thing that I was very advocate for when I ran either of my company or other companies, is the fact that you have to have an onboarding experience for everybody you're dealing with. An onboarding experience with your tenant, an onboarding experience with your owner, an onboarding experience for your vendor. And guess what? Also an onboarding experience for the HOAs that you're dealing with, an onboarding experience for the politicians that are responsible for your area as well because if you don't educate all of those people on what we and how we do it well, there is also not going to be something you're going to like. To your point, Jason, I think if the property managers were involved in some of these laws that they were written, I'm sure they would have been written differently. It's not because we don't want to protect the public. We actually have the utmost respect for the public, but we know what works, and we know what works well. If the idea is to make sure that a tenant has the opportunity to not being overly charged for a particular application fee or something like that, you could have written that in as a rule but a little bit differently than just making it where it's mandated, it's one fee, and you're minimizing the ability for somebody to be able to do the right screening for their tenant and putting the right people in place. Jason: Even in contracts and everything else, we need a little bit of educated language to explain the why behind things. Inaas: Yes, absolutely, 100%. Jason: It's like that spoonful of sugar that Mary Poppins says makes the medicine go down. There needs to be a little bit of education added to some of the stuff rather than just throwing out, "This is how we're going to do it," and you have to just take it. Inaas: Agreed. Now, you did ask me about property. I do want to say a couple things here. It is a system that I'd like people to take a look into as an opportunity for them to understand what the system could do for them, what are we doing as far as these processes, these automations, the opportunities for the two-way API for them to be able to connect their system to everything else that they're working on. We understand that people have to have options and we're supporting that and we're going to go with it. I just want people to take a look at what we've got to offer and if it's fitting to what they need and what their business model is, fantastic. We can work together. If it's not, it's no big deal. We will continue on staying part of the same industry and we'll support each other, but I do feel that people are missing quite a lot by not checking out what the opportunities look like and what the options are with Propertyware. As far as connecting with us what I would recommend, if people go on to our website Propertyware.com, we've just finalized a new experience for what I'm going to call here the free trial where you can go in, login, take a look at a little bit of the system, figure out what's going on. You're certainly not going to be able to do every single thing in the system. I'm not going to allow you to be able to take a payment in the system or put a tenant in there and kind of have them pay you through it, but the beauty of that is at least, it gives you an insider look of what we have available to you. I would also invite you to have a conversation with our sales staff to really truly understand what we have to offer and then go through a demo. If it works, great. If it doesn't, no big deal. Jason: I want to point this out because I'm an advocate for the industry. I'm not a property manager. I want to see the industry shift towards more openness, more freedom. I love what you're saying. We've had other property management software on the past and the general message of one of the big players out there who I won't mention by name was just, we're going to just create everything internally. We're going to just try and give our customers everything that they need rather than giving them what they really are asking for. The general feedback I hear from everybody is they want freedom. They want freaking freedom to be able to make choices, to make the best choices for the business, to choose the best tools and vendors. They want freedom. As entrepreneurs, that's why we are doing what we are doing. We don't give up the 9-5 job so that we can work even more hours a lot of times initially and have a lot more stress and a lot more pain just because we're crazy. We do it because we want more freedom. We want to be choosing what we're doing. What you're saying I think is in alignment with entrepreneurs. It's in alignment with entrepreneurs that are running these property management businesses. They want the freedom to be able to choose the vendors, choose the third party tools that they're going to be using, and they want that stuff to work with their property management software. I appreciate that that is a focus of what Propertyware is doing. I wanted to point that out because I think it's important to highlight those in the industry that are doing that. I see you guys doing it. I see Rent Manager doing that, the open API thing. One thing I've also always appreciated about Propertyware since we started doing websites at DoorGrow back in the day, the very first website I did were websites for Propertyware clients and customers. I've always had that really good integration for the widget. In the first, I have a JavaScript widget, it would populate the data, it wasn't just a cheesy iframe thing that we were putting into the page, and that's always been nice. It's always been nice to have that reduced double data entry. People are putting in their properties into their websites and then doing that just back in the day. We've come a long way since then, every everybody has. Now they're using tools like maybe Tenant Turner, ShowMojo, or Rently, and some of these sorts of integrations. I've always appreciated those aspects of Propertyware. Question. Most people have a property management software. I would imagine most people listening to this show are not just startups that are like, "Which software should I pick?" Say they're using AppFolio, they're using Buildium, they're using Rent Manager, they're using Rentec Direct, they're using something already. What would you say as far as switching? We mentioned already. It's painful usually to switch. How do you help facilitate this if you're going to get customers on? They're going to have to make the switch. Right now, they're probably not even listening because they're like, "There's no way I can switch. I'm married and I'm married for eternity." I'm going to give you an opportunity to help them break up that marriage if it's dysfunctional. Inaas: I am so appreciative of you bringing this on as well. I do want to go back though. Freedom, I love that. I'm actually going to use it because you are correct in making sure that you highlight the fact that it's all about freedom. Yes, we do have offerings. Yes, we do have products, but at the same token, I am personally a believer. In Propertyware, we're believing that we have to provide options for people. You pick whatever makes sense for you as a property management company, if you have a different vendor that is offering something that is more unique to your business model and you like to use that versus using something that we have, great. Go for it. Now as far as the implementation—obviously you can use the API two-way data exchange to be able to connect them so you don't have to double entry anything—the implementation is such an important piece. When you talk to technologist and you talk to them about implementation, they just don't realize the amount of hassles that a PMC will have to go through when they're jumping from one system to another system. To them, it's more of a 1+1=2. Once I came in to Propertyware, the first thing that I have to tackle was our implementation. What we did with it is a couple of folds. One, we broke it down to where we provide now tools for ability to be able to have clean data that gets into your system. Having clean data is half the battle for your implementation because if you have a good, clean data coming into your system, it makes your life so much easier to be able to operate. What we found, a lot of PMCs may not have realized some of the, I'm going to use the word "garbage" that they may have had in their systems. When we go through our checks, we come back to our PMCs and we say, "You told us you managed 200, 300, 1000 doors but when we're looking at your data here, we're seeing 1033, so what's going on with those additional 33 units? Are they truly for rent? Are they truly something you don't use? What's going on with them?" and they're coming back saying, "You know what? You're right. Those are people that we lost two years ago and the person who was working on the system never deactivated the units." Having good data is half the battle. Second is the partnership between the PMCs as well as a good implementation team that allows them to go through the experience one step at a time. What that means, when they're coming in to us to be able to work with Propertyware, they're going to be assigned a particular team with one project manager who is driving the entire implementation from A-Z. They have calls, they have specific asks, there is a specific journey that they're going through step-by-step. Data is usually number one issue that we all come across. Number two would be all your accounting setups. Number three would be all you process setups. Number four would be more of your training and your customization. Number five kind of bringing it all together with KPIs, reports, and dashboards. Now, after you've done all of this implementation, then you're also going to get the training team to come in and do full training with you for all these processes. That training is part of the implementation. It's not something specific that you got to pay for. It also allows you to be able to customize to what your business model needs. Let's say you have a specific way of doing move-ins, that trainer is going to learn that from you before they come out to train you and your staff. When they come out to train you and your staff, they're training you on the system to the best business model, to the best business process that you told him you want to do for that move-in. They're not going to tell you, "Propertyware does it this way," they're going to say, "This is how you told me you want to do move-ins and this is how you could do the same thing in Propertyware for the best of all the results, whether it's for you or for us." Last but not the least, what I would also mention is the fact that we provide our PMCs timelines for their integration. We point it out. We basically say you have, I think the timeline is about 90 days for you to be able to be integrated. You're not paying for the systems during those 90 days until you fully integrated. Once you are fully integrated, then you start paying for it. That allows us to both be on the same footing saying, "We're going to work with you to be able to get you implemented because you're not paying us, so we're not making any money. At the same token, it's in our best interest to help you through this process so we can get you to that finalized implementation piece so you can start using your system." Now, what we've seen is a huge reduction in the days of implementation for Propertyware in particular. We've also seen a very high number of what I would say happy customers that they came on our new plan for implementation. We've also seen a lot less issues with data when data comes in through the system and we're finding a lot of ahas from our clients similar to what I described to you saying, "Hey, I didn't know that I had 1033 units. I thought I was only managing 1000 so now I got to deal with those 33 units," or, "I didn't know that I could do move-ins this way or move-outs that way, or do a process of secure deposit, and refunds this way to be able to make it easier for me and more streamlined." It's less touches, less communications, less points of friction between the teams, and then obviously what gives you the best results at the end of the day. We've seen very good results from our new approach with the implementation. Jason: People are a little frustrated with their existing property management software. It sounds like you guys have made a lot of changes, as well as the API stuff you've been talking about, direct integrations. It's probably worth to them to take a new fresh look at Propertyware. Inaas: Absolutely, yes. If you looked at it before, I do invite you to take a look at it again. I promise you, we've made a lot of changes. And we are continually making changes. We do this every day. When I say changes, it's really more of enhancements that really makes sense for all of what we talked about. You've mentioned the listing, how easy it is. One thing we just rolled out recently is the watermarking for photos in listing widget. It's a small thing but it's an awesome thing to have. Jason: It protects the photos. Inaas: It protects the photos. Especially if you're in areas where you're hit a lot by scams. When I went operating, I'm not singling them out but just a case of the matter. Florida was one of those states that had a lot of scams. By watermarking your photos at ease without a lot of work, it helps you to be able to protect them and making sure that no one is going to steal those photos to be able to scam you or your owners out of the property. Again, we're making enhancements that make sense and we're making enhancements that is allowing people to grow. Either by adding units, increasing their revenue, and/or reducing their expenses, and increasing their profits. Jason: Cool. Inaas, I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing some ideas about Propertyware, letting us know where everything's at with it. Again, people can get in touch by going to propertyware.com and check you guys out. Inaas: I appreciate that. Thank you very much, Jason. I'm really glad that I got a chance to be on the webcast with you. Thank you very much. You guys do a fine job. Please continue on these webcasts. Please continue educating our PMCs and just know that we're going to be supporting you all the way. If there is anything we can do for you and your listeners to be able to support them in their businesses, and in their endeavors, please reach out to us. We'd love to be your business partners. Jason: Awesome. Yeah, I would love to. That would be great. It would be cool. Maybe we'll do something to your audience at some point. That will be fun. Inaas: Absolutely. We welcome that. Jason: All right, cool. I love sharing the message that we share. I'll let you go Inaas. Thanks again for being on the show. Inaas: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you. Jason: As everybody knows, I love sharing the message that I think property management, there is a bigger vision for property managers than just getting mired in toilets, tenants, and termites. I do believe good property management can change the world. There is a massive ripple effect. There are thousands and thousands of families that can be affected by good management. There's a lot of situations in which families should be underneath good management instead of a crappy landlord situation. I do believe good property management can have a massive ripple effect that can change the world and hopefully that all of you get a little bit inspired or excited about that. You are having an impact. You get to make a difference. I am honored that through you my listeners, through our clients that we get to work with, that we're able to get that message out, and that we're able to have some small impact in the industry and have a ripple effect. I appreciate Inaas pointing that out. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, then please reach out. We'd love to have you and maybe work with you, and see if you'd be a good fit for the type of client that we're looking to work with, and make a difference in this industry. Check us out at doorgrow.com. Until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.

Usually, paying attention to your body, mind, and health is the last thing you do when it comes to your business. It's time to focus on yourself first! Today, I am talking to Tony LeBlanc, second-generation property manager and author of The Doorpreneur: Property Management Beyond the Rent Roll. Tony shares the keys to debunking the rent roll paradox when chasing doors to grow. You'll Learn... [03:00] Software Engineer Stint: Tech geek at heart that brings love of technology into property management space. [04:30] What is rent roll paradox? Property management companies that constantly rely on getting new doors to grow their business. [05:42] Chasing doors creates havoc and stress due to inefficiencies. [08:45] Expanding Territories/Locations: The bigger and more geographically dispersed a business gets, the more opportunities arise that aren't taken advantage of. [10:56] Would you want two doors making the same amount, or one door making same amount as two? One door, if the goal is revenue/profit, it's not just about adding doors. [12:30] Premature Expansion: Go-to once a company reaches a certain size; anything premature is generally not a good thing. [14:13] Entrepreneur's Journey: Everyone hits stagnation or desire for more. They get distracted by opportunity. [15:11] Opportunities vs. Expansion: Think it through, be disciplined, and follow good habits before making the jump and knowing where you're going. [17:40] Cycle of Suck: Bad owners, properties, reputation, and false scarcity. [18:15] Property management is changing. It's future is a foundation full of opportunities. [21:50] Dinosaur Dictators vs. Millennials Seeking Meaning and Purpose: Good property management can change the world. [22:45] Tony's Aha Moment: We matter and play an important role in thousands of people's day-to-day life. [28:30] Target on Back: How to deal with being overwhelmed as a property manager. [32:14] When we create and have constraints, when we're limited in our time and attention, we innovate. Tweetables Growth doesn't happen by accident. Personal growth is gateway to business growth. Chasing Doors: Is all you care about being introduced to new people, close deals, and get more doors? Property management's growth is defined by doors that it turns down, not doors it gets. Focus is power. Cut something out in your life to achieve something. Resources The Doorpreneur by Tony LeBlanc Ground Floor Property Management National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) Cycle of Suck DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers are those that love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. My guest today is Tony LeBlanc from Canada. Welcome Tony, how are you doing? Tony: Hey man, I'm doing great, Jason. Thanks for having me. Jason: I'm really excited to have you on the show. You've been on before a long time ago and I was telling you in the green room before the show, but I think we resonate with a lot of similar values. I think we're both growth-minded people. I read your Doorpreneur book, which everybody should take a look at. And I think we have a similar mindset that growth doesn't happen by accident and personal growth is the gateway to business growth. I think we probably would both agree. Tony: Absolutely. Jason: I posted about this just the other day. I think it's the last thing that everybody wants to pay attention to in their business, is themselves. They'll focus on everything external. "I need more leads. I need this. I need this." Ironically, if I could change the person or get them clear on themselves, then all of those things end up changing by default, everything. Website marketing, everything into changing by default if you focus on yourself first. Tony give people a little bit of background. Maybe those that had heard you before, bring them up-to-date. Tell us a little bit about who Tony is. Tony: Sure, thanks Jason. I said my name's Tony LeBlanc from eastern Canada. Born and raised out here. I am a second generation property manager. It wasn't my first career of choice. I actually got into it as my second career. My first career was a 15-year stint as a software engineer with IBM which provided me an amazing experience visiting the world and working with a lot of great people in that domain. I'm a tech geek at heart. I love technology and I don't think that'll ever go away. It's been interesting to bring that into the property management world, because as everybody knows, technology in the property management space is still not, in my opinion, where it should be. I still think we're 5-10 years behind some of the stuff that we should have out there available to us. I still find it very difficult to run my business with the standard property management software that they have out there. After I left IBM, I started my management company which had been running out for about 10 years, called Ground Floor Property Management. We have been very well-received in our community. We now have three locations and I am now an author. I've basically taken everything that I've learnt from IBM, from life, and from the last 10 years of growing my property management company as well as the spin offs that we've created over the years, and that's where I am today, introducing the doorpreneur way. Jason: Perfect. The title of the show is the Keys to Debunking the Rent Roll Paradox. What is the rent roll paradox? Tony: The rent roll paradox is the fact that most, if not all property management companies out there, are constantly relying on getting new doors to grow their business. I believe there's a different way. I believe there is a much better way than doing that. And I say that from experience. For the first five years of running Ground Floor, my property management company, I was nothing but a door chaser. I just wanted to grow, grow, grow, grow. That's all I cared about. I just wanted to be introduced to new people, close deals, and get more doors. We got to the point to where we reached almost 2000 doors in five years. That's across three locations. It was fast, it was intense, and it was incredibly painful. Incredibly painful. Now that I've gotten into the second five-year phase of the management journey, I've learned a lot looking back, and I realized that as I was going through that growth phase, I'm just adding more doors, and more doors, and more doors. I was causing a lot of havoc and stress on myself and my staff, but I was leaving an incredible amount of money on the table because of inefficiencies. If anybody's growing a property management company, when you're getting doors pouring in—we do multi-rise mostly, not just single family—it's a lot of work. We've onboarded 50, 60, 124 unit buildings, and it consumes you for a period of time. If you don't give the proper amount of space in between those growth, it becomes rough, but you don't want to take your foot off the gas if you're like me. Jason: Yeah, so let's touch on this real quick. I tell people this all the time. If somebody calls me and they say, "I am thinking of starting a property management business," I say, "Do you want me to talk you into it or out of it?" because I get to see inside hundreds of companies. They usually laugh, but they usually stay into it. The thing is, this property management is easily death by a thousand cuts. Tony: Absolutely. Jason: If you have one little problem with one door and then you have a thousand doors, you have thousands of those problems over and over again. That's why it's so critical to shore up some of these leaks early on, because if you're having problems now and you feel like it's stressful now, just adding more doors is throwing gasoline on whatever fire you have. If that fire is a bad fire, then it's just going to explode. It's going to be worse. Customer service goes down. You have more complaints and it compounds. Usually, they have to make significant changes just to go from 50-60 units under management to break past that first sand trap—I call 50-60 door the solopreneur sand trap—to break 100 doors. Just to do that, they have to change everything. Ironically, I'll real estate companies that are doing property management on the side, break past that barrier artificially without making the necessary changes. They don't get technology in place, they don't get systems in place, and it will pass it. One of my case studies was a client that had 600 units under management, single family, and was making $0 in this business. I said, "How are you doing that?" he's like, "I've $3 million a month in real estate every month or whatever. I'm doing real estate." Property management can be death by a thousand cuts. You have this pain, but you have growth and I'm sure a lot of people are like, "I would love that problem. I would love the problem to deal with, to figure out how to get 2000 doors and quit crying," so tell us a little bit about your experience after that. Tony: One of the big things was expanding into different territories. Our headquarters, which is my main office, we're doing extremely well. We then split off to another city within an hour-and-a-half away, and that ended up going well. The third location came in and that started off really well, but then about a year later, we started looking at all three locations individually, and we started seeing a lot of gaps, and a lot of issues that we're struggling with. We made a conscious effort to obviously fix a lot of those things and it made us really pull the curtain back and look at the overall business as it sat. The bigger we got and the more geographically dispersed that we became, we started seeing a lot of opportunities that we were just not taking advantage of. When I started the management company 10 years ago, I had maintenance as part of the division. That's the way my mother did it and that's the way I wanted to do it. I always wanted to have my own maintenance guys on my payroll so that I can control that and we still do that to this day. What really became evident as we're studying and looking at our rent rolls across all three locations, was the amount of money that was being spent outside in terms of different trades, different services that were required on all these properties. To be quite honest with you, I was getting tired of chasing doors. It wasn't as enticing anymore. Don't get me wrong, we still grow, we still love getting new doors, but something had changed in me. Then we were really started looking at what can we do beyond just getting more doors and that's really when the whole doorpreneur philosophy was born. Our first pivot into a new business that serviced our portfolios was landscaping [...] and that's where everything grew from there. Jason: Here's an obvious question. Would you rather have two doors that are making the same amount or one door that's making the same amount as two? Tony: Definitely one. Absolutely. Jason: Absolutely. If the goal is revenue, the goal is profit, and it's not just about adding doors. Everyone focuses on that one multiplier, it is doors. Everyone's trying to get a deal and it's like one deal per door. What if you can get multiple doors per deal? What if you can get multiple years per door? What about duration? There's all these other factors they're not paying attention to. There are some property managers out there that are replacing every door every year. They're usually about 50-60 units, they're getting on an accidental investor that leaves every year, they have to replace every damn door every year, and they're like, "We're adding doors, why aren't we growing?" It seems so obvious. Tony: The major shift for us has been quality over quantity. I say no to more doors today than I ever have in my 10-year career running this company. It's really all about where can we take this? Where can we take that door and what can it do in the long term? Jason: Yeah. I think a property management company's growth will always be defined by the doors that they're willing to turn down, not the doors they're able to get on for sure. I think another thing going back to your rent roll paradox, you talked about expanding into locations. I think that's a go-to once a company hits a certain size, they're like, "We did it here, let's go here." They just had me speak on this at the Ironman conference on a panel and I call that, premature expansion. Anything premature is generally not a good thing. A lot of people think, "Well, we did this here, we're hitting a cap in our door account, so instead of expanding our revenue opportunities with those doors, or here, or figuring out other ways to hit different parts of the market here, let's just go find a new market. We'll do it all over again," they don't realize it's worse than being twice as hard in starting a new location. Tony: 100%. The stories that I can tell you about the two locations that we can open. It all comes back to a fundamental need of chasing doors. It's like that's all you're able to see. We got this tunnel vision. It's like, "Okay, I've grown here and I think I'm as big as I can get. Where else can I go and chase more doors?" It's fulfilling for the first little while. It's fun, it's exciting, but there's an emptiness to it in the end. I think I'm a little bit different than maybe probably a lot of traditional type property managers. I knew when I started Ground Floor that it was going to be something much bigger than just a property management company. I had that vision 10-15 years ago and just running after doors, it lasted for 3-4 years and then I was like, "Okay, what's next? Is this it? What else can I do in here?" That's when a lot of other things started coming along. Jason: I think that's common for every entrepreneur in the entrepreneurial journey. If they really are an entrepreneurial-minded person, they're going to hit this stagnation or this desire for more. The desire to do more. Sometimes that goes south and they do it in negative or dysfunctional ways. I started out just doing websites. Then I go like, "Hey, I could make residual income if I'm doing the hosting for these websites. I could do this. They also need the service." I think as entrepreneurs, we also get distracted by opportunity. We see it everywhere and it keeps us sometimes from even achieving the goal we're working on right now. How do you find that balance between seeing all the opportunity and expanding into new areas, but making sure that you're actually getting stuff done? Tony: I'll be honest with you. The first couple of years, I was so focused. I had my head down so bad in terms of just getting the doors and growing my local office, that it was so busy and it was all so fast that I didn't have time to look at anything else. It's when I get a little bit of breathing room that I started looking at the different locations. I don't necessarily regret it, but I probably would have thought about it a little bit longer before I need the jump. If I look at myself now, it really comes down to being disciplined and a lot of good habits. Like I said, I say no to more business today than I ever have. I am 100% focused. Property management is my life. If it's not in property management or in my sphere, I'm not interested. I don't have time for it, I don't make time for it, and I'm very blunt with that. I have an extremely tough schedule that I follow. I do a lot of stuff for myself personally, and then that translates over to the business side. I know where I'm going. It's kind of fun to where you'll have other guys or people that'll come in and say, "I got these cool opportunities, I got this, I got this," I'm like, "Cool, good for you. I hope it works." Me? I'm not interested. I got my path and I know what I'm doing. Jason: Yeah. I did hit up for opportunities all the time. Different property management there's like, "Hey, we could do this cool thing together." I'm like, "No, we can't." Focus is power like with anything. You could be a flood light or you could be a laser and actually cut something out in your life and achieve something. All right. Can we touch on your book a little bit? I read through it. I think there's some interesting ideas in there. I don't know where we should start, but you've got this book, you call it The Doorpreneur: Property Management Beyond the Rent Roll. It's a quick read. I think it's a good read. You share a little bit of your journey and some of the things you've gone through. I think we've done some similar things. I'm going to quote a part of it. It says, "We are the problem and we are the solution." You were talking about how property management had a bad rep because we're allowing it to. I think that's the case. Everyone who's heard of me, if they listen to my show at all, talk about the cycle of suck. If you haven't, just google "Property Management Cycle of Suck" and you'll find an old video I did on it. I think that the industry as a whole is that's where they are. It's caught in the cycle of suck. It has a bad reputation because everyone's taking on bad owners, and they're taking on bad properties, and they're not being picky, and they feel all the scarcity. Everybody's trying to do the same stuff that's not working which creates false scarcity in the industry and there's no scarcity in property management. You said that you believe the industry's time has come. What do you see for this industry? You say it's on the brink of change. I feel that, too. I feel like there's a shift going on right now. I'm hoping that DoorGrow is helping to push that forward. What do you see for the future of property management? Tony: Just over the last few years, I would say probably in the last 4-5 years, I will say that you've had a part in this in terms of, you're starting to see a lot more people get together and talk about property management, and not just NARPM. I know that's a big organization in the States, but in order for an industry to really take over, I believe it's got to go beyond just the regulation of the groups that are that are like that. It's exciting to see a lot of that happening, whether if it's groups online or different organizations, all sorts of cool stuff. But I'm also seeing that the opportunities that are becoming present in all these different places are becoming much more attractive to different people. It's like you're seeing the density being built in a lot of different cities—the rise of renting out in this whole generation of millennials—in terms of it being a renter's nation. That is providing a good foundation for a lot of required property managers to come out here and start managing these properties. The tools are getting better. They're not amazing yet, and I'm speaking in terms of technology. Those things are getting better over time. But more and more, I'm seeing the property management is getting away from the old school that started in the business 30, 40, 50 years ago, and you're seeing a new breed of property management come into the picture, which is they're a lot more professional, they're running real businesses, it's not just a side gig from a realtor, or it's not just this big owner that owns a big portfolio and he decided to manage a few places on the side so he can make a few bucks and pay for him running his own stuff. They're seeing legitimate people, business people coming into the space and making a run at it, and that's what we need. We need professionals coming in and we need professionally-run businesses. More than ever today, I'm seeing and talking to a lot of people that are running greater businesses and it's exciting, because I think the opportunity is huge. But it's also at the same time somewhat limited because I know I've done this long enough. I've been around it my entire life. This business is tough. It is not for everybody. We're going to have the turnover that's going to come through and hopefully the good will stick and make the business better for everybody. Better first impression of the business, better for us working in the industry, being able to grow together, and making it all better together. Jason: Yeah. I think that the way to change the industry is obviously to have healthy businesses. Healthy business owners in this industry, leading the way, and they have to be profitable. I think also there's a huge opportunity right now in that, millennials are the workforce largely. I think a lot of people, they've gotten a bad rep. A lot of people think they're lazy, they're unmotivated, and I find that to be patently false. I think millennials are our new generation of workers that don't want to do menial work. They don't want to do something without meaning. I think this is a huge opportunity for business owners that are not acting like dinosaurs saying, "I'm paying you to do something so just freaking do it." Those are the dinosaur dictators that think, "Well, I give them money. Why don't they just do everything amazingly?" Millennials want purpose and I think there's an opportunity now for business owners that believe they have a purpose, that there's a greater vision for what they do. You touched on that in your book. I talked quite a bit about that as well. People have heard me say, "I believe good property management can change the world. It can have a significant impact. We're affecting families. We're affecting lives." I could have that impact through my clients, which is what gets me excited about showing up helping property management business owners lead the way and do good work. They can't do that if they're struggling. Tony: Yeah. The biggest aha moment I've had in my career with Ground Floor, my management company, was four years ago. We had an offsite meeting with all my staff. We're about 50 people with all 3-4 different companies. I was looking at the rent roll, I showed it to everybody on the big screen, and I'm like, "We've got 2000 apartments," roughly it was right around there, that we're almost full all the time, "and if I take an average, we'll probably have around 3000-3500 people that live in properties that we take care of. Guys, we matter. You cannot not look at that and how important of a role we play in day-to-day life for close to 4000 people." I'm like, "That's pretty special." Like I explained in the book, we're a part of all sorts of experiences for these people. We've seen deaths, we've seen births, we've seen marriages, we've seen plenty of divorces, we've seen it all. It happens underneath our roofs. Again, I grew up in the business, I've seen it all from a personal standpoint, and now I've seen it all from running a business. There are no ifs or ands about it. It's a special business. Jason: All of those different situations require some activity or involvement with the property manager. I mean, even if it's just maintaining the property and doing some maintenance, it's affecting these families lives, and it's affecting these sometimes challenging moments that they're going through. Those interactions can be positive, helpful interactions, or it can deepen their words, they can cause more pain, and the ripple effect property managers have is huge. Property management is death by a thousand cuts. It also can be a ripple effect of a thousand possible positive interactions on a regular basis. I know property management can be tough. I hear about it all the time. I know how difficult it can be to run a business. I know that. Every entrepreneur knows that. It doesn't get easier the bigger you get, often. It can sometimes get more challenging. But it makes it worth it when you have somebody that comes to you and says, "Hey, you made my life better," or, "You had an impact," and those little moments we don't always hear about them, but when they do come through, they do. That's why we do what we do. Tony: Yeah. I think a lot of property managers will be able to agree with me, that there's an old saying that the phone never rings with good news in our business. If someone's calling, it's usually something bad on the other line. It's either a complaint, or an issue, or something. It's almost like you have to come into the office each day knowing that you may not get a million praises from the outside, and that's why the office environment is sacred for you and your staff, for the people running the business. I just hired a new girl a few weeks ago and I'm very honest and transparent during our interview. I was like, "You're new to this industry and you are going to struggle. It's going to be really tough. It's going to test you emotionally. It's going to test your ability to deal with a million things going on at the same time, it's going to test you in every way possible." I asked her the other day, she's going on her third week and she's like, "I knew it was going to be tough, but I didn't think there would be so much that I had to learn," but the office environment is such a way that we're very much a team, we help each other out, we have each other's backs. If there's a difficult situation, other people step in. You really have to have that environment because it can really help the overall business. If not, it can get in get a little lonely. Jason: Yeah. The turnover in property management businesses regarding staff can be pretty high. I think one way to mitigate that is what you're talking about, it's creating a really positive culture, a safe place within the business, a place in which your team members are allowed to make mistakes, they're allowed to screw up, and they're allowed to figure things out. Otherwise, they start hiding stuff. Tony: And start costing you money. Bad mistake. Jason: I think it's important to realize, a lot of times in any business, the people that are really attacking or really causing you grief, are hurt people. They're hurting on the inside. It's not even really usually about you. We were talking about before the show how I've been really attacked lately in some forums and some groups. I have several people messaging me privately and lots of people that message me like, "Hey Jason, you don't deserve this, you've done a lot for us," and it's ironic because in property management, we deal with this. Everybody gets these negative reviews. They feel unjust and unfair, they didn't give the deposit back which rightly so probably, you're being attacked, and these people have nothing better to do than just try to destroy your business. That's just part of being in business, I think. In general, you're always going to have haters. The bigger you get, the bigger the target is on your back. You just have more people that you're dealing with. I definitely got a target. You dealing with 4000 maybe potential constituents connected to your business that you're impacting, all the owners, all the renters, everything, you have a big target, Tony, on your back. Tony: Yeah. It's overwhelming in the best of days. That's probably one of the, I would say, either the first or the second biggest problem overall arching in this industry is how do you deal with the overwhelm of dealing with so many different things. If we were to count all the different balls that we're juggling in the area at any given time as an owner even as a property manager, it's a lot. That's why I've gone to the depths that I did with the book in terms of putting the importance on lifestyle, in terms of installing good habits, in terms of being healthy, working out, just simple things because if you're going to go in this industry and you're going to make a run at it, you got to be firing on all cylinders. A big part of that is your body, your relationships at home, your relationships with your kids. You got to go into the office with a clear mindset. If not, it's going to be rough. I've walked in the holes in my office on many days after either having an argument with one of my kids or having an argument with my queen and that's like, "I can't do anything in here. I have zero patience and I just want everybody to stay away from me." That's not a way to run a business. Jason: That's how I would feel if I'm hungry. That's how I would feel if I didn't get enough sleep the night before. We tend to start externalizing these challenges. That's why even people coming to my program they're like, "Well, I wanted to grow my business, why are you having me focus on some of the silly stuff like drinking water?" I get picked on about some of those things but I know the impact that it's had on my own life to get the basics in place and have that foundation so that you can tackle the world. We have one vehicle in which we approach everything in life and that's our body. Tony: Yeah, absolutely. Jason: Our current ability distinct cognitively, to function, to be able to deal with stress, be able to see objectively, to be able to handle all the stuff that gets thrown out as a business, to be able to see alternatives and ideas, all of it has to do with our brain and being able to function on all four cylinders or however many you might have. Tony: Absolutely. I'm a true believer. I've always been an athletic guy. 2019, I've taken it up a notch and done some other things. Jason: I've noticed. Tony: Yeah. It's funny because 8½ months getting ready for an Ironman, I made more money in that eight months than I probably did in the last two years by just condensing the amount of time that I had and the focus that was required to do it, and to pull it off. I still look back at it and like, "How did I do that?" and I'm still digesting it all because it's still fairly new, but it's taught me so many lessons that I'm going to be able to take forth with the new stuff that I'm doing. The very first video that I made to get ready for my Ironman training and it was January or February, it's like I'm doing this because I need to become somebody different in order to launch this book, to write this book, to finish this book, and to grow beyond the book. It was amazing. It was a journey like I can't explain Jason: I'll point out one thing that's very obvious to me because I've seen it in you, I've seen it in a hundreds of entrepreneurs. When we create constraints, when we have constraints, when we're limited in our time or limited in our attention, we innovate. That's when our brain starts to really fire and we get really, really creative. It's the same thing with our team members. If you give them unlimited time to do something and unlimited resources and money to do something, they're going to do it in the most costly, time-sucky way possible. But when you create constraints and having a goal of doing something big like an Ironman, where you're going to put your body to some massive stress, you have to be prepared for that, and you know what it's actually going to take, then it gets really difficult and it creates constraint. I'll point out to everybody. I've seen this in lots and lots of businesses and I've seen in my own life when we have constraints. You don't notice, you come up with ideas when money get scarce. When you have a team member leave, all of a sudden, you're changing things that they've been doing a status quo forever. A lot of these challenges that we perceive as challenges really are opportunities for us to innovate and to grow and to change. I'm not sure if Tony will make it back here, but I'm sure Tony would love for you guys to reach out. Tony, I'm going to plug you. He's got his book, Doorpreneur, and I recommend you check that out. You can go to doorpreneur.com You can preorder it now. Make sure you get his book. Check it out. I think there's some really great value. It's a quick read, it's only 125 pages, and I think you'll really enjoy it. He's got some previews of the first four chapters on his site doorpreneur.com and it looks like you'll be able to get it on Amazon and in some other places. We'll go ahead and wrap this up. So if you are property management entrepreneur, and you are wanting to add doors, and you are wanting to get your business in alignment, and you are wanting to create that space for yourself, you feel like you're the hamster on the treadmill, then reach out. You can check us out at doorgrow.com.

From surfing waves to making waves by fixing exploding toilets for tenants—how an entrepreneur and creative technologist leveraged design to streamline simple solutions. Today, I am talking to Mark Rojas, CEO and founder of the Proper app that streamlines the building repairs process. Mark has spent his career creating positive user experiences and adding value by solving problems related to efficiency and human connectivity. You'll Learn... [04:40] Definition of Design: Viewing how something works in the real world and creating a corresponding experience to make your life easier and more enjoyable. [05:34] Proper app idea originated with possibility of becoming an accidental landllord. [07:13] Maintenance is the bain of their existence. There's got to be a better way to fix building repairs process and problems. [09:30] Maintenance is more than one issue. It involves many problems for many people. [10:10] Lack of Communication: Leverage "chat room" to create efficient and effective dialogue between contractors, property managers, and tenants. [13:07] What makes Proper different? Visibility and shared platform for centralized communication between all participating people and places. [14:50] Building Repairs Process: Submit image, describe problem, create work order, send notifications, add contractors, diagnosis issue, complete fix, submit/pay invoice. [19:50] Property Management Platforms: Proper's integration and import/export plans for increased visibility for systematic way to save time and money while simplifying lives. [22:42] Common Questions and Concerns: Is Proper app intuitive? Is training provided? [28:15] Future Feature: Email integration and aggregation to avoid duplicate data. Tweetables Every elegant solution involves some element of intelligent design. Design isn't all about pixels. It's applied via various mediums by viewing how something works in the real world. Maintenance is the bain of a property manager's existence. First Step with Proper App: A picture is worth a 1,000 words, so describe the problem succinctly. Resources Proper Mark Rojas on LinkedIn Venice Art Crawl Buildium AppFolio Propertyware Intercom Help Scout GatherKudos DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, I'm hanging out with Mark Rojas. Mark, welcome to the show. Mark: Hey, it's good to see you again. Jason: Mark is coming to us from a company called Proper Chat, correct? Mark: That's correct. Jason: Mark, I'll read a little bit of your bio. It says you are the CEO and founder and it says, "While you might not think of hiring a designer to fix an exploding toilet, Mark Rojas still might be the man for the job. From starting his own surfboard manufacturing company at 16 to founding multiple tech companies focused on creating positive user experiences, Mark has spent his career working to add value by solving problems of efficiency, and human connectivity. An entrepreneur and creative technologist from Queens, Mark is the founder and CEO of Proper, an app designed to streamline the building repairs process. He first began befriending property managers while producing the Venice Art Crawl, a passion project that transformed vacant properties into temporary art showrooms (aka fun, free open houses). Shortly thereafter while subletting his apartment in 2017, Mark was blessed with the invigorating experience of needing to manage repairs for a bathroom explosion involving multiple tenants." Why don't you take us from there? Mark: That's a good intro. Jason: I'll let you tell the rest of the story. How did you get into this from surfboards? Mark: Surfboards was a little I went to when I was 16 years old, but that did throw me into design and ultimately product design. Right after college, my career quickly became into web development, app development, and working with a lot of startups here in the Bay Area, which is where we're based out of, to leverage design to solve water problems. It came with the advent of mobile, really becoming this fast-growing platform, where your everyday user now is expecting this very seamless experience that is solving various problems we're on. That transitioned from building a product, starting a company, and then continuing to wanting to build products for others. I think one of those things that continues to be a passion of mine is finding a problem and leveraging design to simplify, streamline it, and make everyone's life better. Jason: I love it. That's entrepreneurism in a nutshell. We see a problem and we're crazy enough to think we can solve that problem. We can make money solving that problem and create a win-win. You love that you say that you focus on doing it through design because really, every elegant solution involves some sort of intelligent design, whether it's a system, whether it's something visual. People think design, they think it's like graphic design or something creative. Mark: Yeah. I don't think of design as just pixels. There's various mediums through which one can apply design. It's really viewing how something works in the real world and seeing how can you create a corresponding experience that can streamline it, that can make it simpler, that can make it more delightful, more efficient, and really give you a lot of your life back, whether that's time or even just joy. Jason: What problem then did you really see that you're like, "I'm going to create Proper"? Let's try to build this problem up. Mark: I've seen a lot of different thoughts to my life in being a tenant, but it really became a problem for me when I almost became an accidental landlord. I was traveling for an extended period of time, I have known my landlord for a while, and she was happy to actually let me sublet it. It's like, "It's okay. Go off, I trust you, and when you come back, it's all good." But there's still a level of responsibility that was pressed upon me. As I rented out my apartment, I quickly realized that I have become a landlord. So, two days into it, the subtenant called me to let me know that there was a major problem. I was like, "What? What's going on?" It turned out that the pipe above our ceiling under our neighbor's bathroom had burst. To say the least, it's quite a mess. This set up a flurry of emails, phone calls, text messages between the tenant and myself, the property owner, neighbors, contractors, plumbers, et cetera, and it was happening over phone calls, emails, text messages, WhatsApp calls, FaceTime calls. At some point, I was like, "Wow, this is rather ridiculous," and my design mind immediately started thinking... Jason: Broken. This is flawed. There's got to be a better way than this. Mark: Yeah. My wheels are just spinning and spinning and spinning, and I started designing it in my brain. Then, one day I just whipped it out of my computer, I just mocked it up, and I was like, "I'm going to build this." I started building it and I think one thing that's true then and now, and even more true now, is we spend a lot of time talking to our users and our customers, and really dissecting their problems or processes. I immediately started doing calls with property managers that I already knew. As you saw in my bio, I knew a lot of property managers. When I started the Venice Art Crawl, which is a crowd-sourced art event, we have 40 different art shows going on at the same time in Venice beach. The way I did it was I found vacant spaces, [...] the property managers and basically said, "I know I can bring high net worth individuals to these empty spaces and we can treat it almost as an open house." That worked not only well—I was creating value for them—they all basically love me. When I started working on this idea, they were happy to talk to me for hours at a time. What I found is that maintenance is almost the bane of their existence. Jason: Oh yeah. We did a survey inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group—property managers listening, you should be in there if you have a property management business—and we asked—just an informal poll in the Facebook group—"What's your number one challenge in your business?" There were two or three items at the top of the list that were connected to maintenance. It was sourcing vendors, it was maintenance coordination. Maintenance is the biggest headache or challenge in property management. Mark: Yeah. It's very painful to the point that I actually thought that I was becoming a therapist. Sometimes, they would talk to me for three hours at a time just talking about it, and I was like, "Wow, this is a very real problem." I was able to take those learnings and turned it into a product that corresponded with it. What started off was really just a project. I didn't think, "Oh, I'm going to become a billionaire off of this. This is my next big thing." This is more, I was traveling, I wanted to start building a product, and I wanted it to not be something that I built in bane, but rather, to possibly solve someone's problem. Initially, it was my problem, and when I talked to property managers, they actually laughed at me because I was building an app already and only dealing with a monthly maintenance issue, while they're dealing with hundreds a month, if not more. Jason: Right. You're building an app for one maintenance issue. Mark: Yeah, so talking to them totally validated that this is something worth pursuing. Then, I just went deeper. I kept talking to them. I started talking to the contractors, the tenants, and I realized that this is a problem on all sides of the equation and set out to start building a solution that could solve a lot of the issues with it. I think a lot of my history in design has been focused on communication, really making it richer and removing barriers. Essentially, a lot of friction and a lot of time wasted happens when poor communication happens. That's why it's proper.chat and leveraging chat as a platform to remove a lot of the bottlenecks that happen, like playing Whac-A-Mole between an email for this contractor, phone call for that tenant, and really starting to centralize everything where we could remove those bottlenecks and with the oversight of the property manager, the contractor and the tenant can speak with each other. Anything from scheduling, updates, "Hey, I got to go to Home Depot and get this part. I'll be back tomorrow." In the world today, the tenant would know. Three days could pass and that creates frustration and friction for the tenant because they don't know what's going on, and that means another phone call to the property manager. Jason: Right. Communication in a business, for any business, causes a challenge; internal communication. For a while, as I was growing from solopreneur to building a team, I have freelancers. I thought this was so great because I only have to pay them when there's work. "Here's the job, do this work." But the challenge with that is the communication level was just not strong enough. I didn't realize that until I started getting full-time employees. The communication level is dramatically different when you have somebody that's dedicated because you're reducing the number of people that you need. That person is giving more of their time. Two people that are doing 10 hours a week versus 1 person that's doing 20 hours a week, I would take the one person any day of the week, especially if those two have to communicate. The communication back-and-forth wastes so much time, and there's always a percentage of loss when there's any sort of communication. If there's communication between two parties, there are gaps. There just always is. It could be a misread and body language. It could be somebody doesn't understand something. Somebody's a poor communicator. There's some sort of flaw. The more you can reduce that, the less friction there is. One of my recent hires was one of these unicorns that can do web development and design. The communication level is way shorter. He can get things done in such a short time. Normally, I want a specialist, but he's able to create something so much quicker because he's not having the communicate and negotiate between another party that doesn't understand what they do. A developer and a designer are two different universes, right? Mark: Absolutely, yeah. Jason: [...] crazy guys setting you both. So, I get it. Explain how this helps reduce the communication and why is this better than the other stuff that's out there, what other people have been doing? What's unique about Proper that you're noticing? Mark: A lot of it comes down to visibility and a shared placed for everyone involved with the maintenance, to communicate with each other. Where we really differentiate is that we started on mobile. We're a mobile-first solution. We do have a desktop and a web experience for the property manager. In terms of being able to report, what we notice from a lot of property managers, whether they have Yardi, AppFolio, you're still getting these maintenance requests from many different places. You're getting from phone calls, emails, text messages. What we set out to build and we're building right now is one place I can centralize all that. Not only centralize it but make it a more useful format. When someone writes you a three-paragraph email, a lot of it is frustration. Jason: Right. There's all this emotion and they want you to understand their pain. They're like, "I got to relate this. I got to paint this picture." Mark: Exactly, and part of it is because they've waited too long to write this email. This frustration has built up and they want to write this email. With our application, which is native, you as a tenant are able to create a work order very quickly, and it's very visual. An image is worth a thousand words and it really is in this area. Often, these emails don't even include images, so a tenant is able to quickly snap a photo, almost like Snapchat or Instagram. You don't train anyone. There's literally billions of users on these apps who know how to use this and they're able to create a work order in under 30 seconds. The format is not to write paragraphs and paragraphs. It's to be succinct, 140–200 characters max and you choose a category. This gets fired off to the property manager, you get a notification on your phone or on your desktop, and then from there you have your contractors that you can add this this conversation. The idea is that it turns into a group chat at this point, with the property manager still being involved. Instead of trying to get back and forth between scheduling, instead of the contractor having to ask questions to the property manager to then go ask the tenant to further diagnose what's broken, the contractor's able to immediately see what's broken because there's always going to be a picture. We pretty much make that almost mandatory for the tenants. What we've seen from contractors is that they're able to save time and cost by more quickly able to diagnose where the problem is, what tools to bring, what materials to bring. Everything just happens there. The property manager is still part of the process, but they don't need to insert themselves. When they insert themselves now, it really takes up a lot of their time. Not only because they have to go back and forth, but often they're fielding phone calls, they're fielding emails, and then this really, really adds up. Jason: I love that it's prompting them to take a picture. Mark: Yeah. The first step is to create a work order, take a picture. That's the first thing. Jason: And a picture's worth a thousand words. They're not going to have to write a thousand words in order to get it across. You can see it and you go, "Okay, you can fluff it up or make it more dramatic, but I can see it. Here it is." Or they might do the opposite. They might say, "Hey, there's a problem with the faucet and it's flooding the whole bathroom." So, you can see it. They send you a picture. In a lot of apps, a picture's an afterthought. They have to do some serious extra work in order to get a photo into something or to do it. I've had maintenance companies ask me, "Could you email me a photo?" or, "Can you take a picture so we know what to look for or what type of fixture we need?" whatever. It slows down the communication significantly. Mark: Totally and I think there are these added benefits that currently property managers don't have the bandwidth to do. Because of the contractors there, they can easily provide updates themselves like, "Hey, I have this question." "Hey I have to come back." Right now, that has to go to the property manager, the property manager then has to tell the tenant, and then often this doesn't happen. So, you have this built-in benefits of transparency that you have with the tenant that really builds trust, but also stops them from calling you, which once again takes up a lot of your time. The very nice thing is that at the end, the contractor is able to close up the job by providing proof that they've done it. So, they have to take pictures of it. Then, you have these records of the conversations that you have with everyone, the images at the beginning of the job, the images at the end, and it just creates a ton of transparency and documentation that you can have, that's very easily searchable, filterable later on. One thing we're starting to work on is really reporting. You can start to really understand the volume of workers that you're getting, the stages that they're at, the amount of time it took to complete it, and really how much time it's taking up for you. Jason: It makes a lot of sense. If you can cut out one phone call, you're probably saving your team, at a minimum, 15–18 minutes of productivity, simply because one interruption in a team member's day, typically they say, cost about 18 minutes of productivity. Even [...] take 18 minutes, they got to rebuild the house of cards they were working on or go back to whatever project they're trying to figure out. So, if you can cut down the phone calls significantly, even if you don't have that large of a portfolio, it's almost like getting a new team member on your team. It's that significant. People are really expensive in property management businesses. It's the highest cost in the PM business. I know what property managers listening to this are going to be thinking. They're going to be thinking, "Well, that sounds great, but another piece of technology. How is it going to work with my Buildium, or my AppFolio, or my Propertyware? I got these, they've got maintenance requests built into them. How will this work?" Mark: In terms of the different platforms, there are ones that permit direct integrations and we're starting to work with building some of those. Then, we're also building a way for you to be able to easily export, search, and import this data at the end. I think the difference really is that the maintenance offerings that they have don't create the same level of visibility and don't save you the amount of time. Even if their integration is not there, the amount of time that we're currently saving you and that we're going to continue to increase, really starts to outweigh some of the cons of doing that. That's the way we're moving through with all these things. Jason: Can you tell us who you're working to start integrating with yet? Mark: We have a couple of partners, mostly in the Los Angeles area. One has about 1000 units, another 2000 units, and we're working with both of them. They're both on different platforms and seeing what's going to be the most efficient way. It's not just integration of the maintenance, but also I think what's really important here is their accounting. We're really looking at accounting and how we can start to streamline with that because there is one of the things that we've seen with the contractors is a lot of them don't have a systematic way of not just keeping track of their work orders or invoices, but even just generating invoices, so it takes up a lot of their time. On the property management side, you're getting all these different types of invoices coming in, totally different formats, and then you're manually doing double data entry into all these different systems. It's kind of a pain because it's like, "Why is it formatted this way?" You have this hurdle that you're dealing with all these messed-up invoices. One thing that we're seeing is there's the ease of use of our invoice. A lot of the maintenance techs and workers are actually enjoying using it and starting to use it as a way to create a uniform way of generating invoices for their property managers. What we want to do is actually make that very easy to export so you can import so that you can import it into your accounting system. Jason: Cool. What are the big questions that people ask about this? What are their frequently asked questions, concerns? What are the big questions that they're asking so that we cover all the bases here? Mark: There's quite a few, but I think there's this very chat-focused, very simple, clean design. There isn't a lot of other platforms that we've seen in the space yet. They're starting to show up, but really there's very few. I think a lot of people are like, "Hey, do you provide training? How much is training going to cost?" Jason: You're like, "Do you know how to use instant message?" Mark: No. We don't want to be sending that at all. We really care about our users, so we offer like, "We'll train you," and then the funny thing here is that we do a demo and not for a minute we train them. Jason: And by the way that demo was the training. Mark: Yeah. If you know how to use iMessage or any of those things, it's very intuitive. That's really the core principle of the company is designing something that is not only beautiful, but it's extremely easy to use because we don't think that we should be paying and send somebody out to train you or that you need to hire some expert to use the software. Jason: All right. I'm going to go to the devil's advocate on the other side here. It's so easy, it's just chat, it's so simple, why don't I just sign-up with Intercom or Help Scout and get a chat tool and take tickets? What's different between those solutions and something like Proper? Mark: Proper is really geared towards maintenance. Even just the terminology, the flow, the understanding of the whole workflow of maintenance getting done, is what is unique to us. You could theoretically use text messaging to do. The reality is you can start to use that, but then very quickly it breaks down and it becomes cumbersome. For example, Intercom. There's no mobile app. There's no way to really add photos into what's going on. There's no way to categorize it into the type of problem that might be related to maintenance. For us, we provide all those things but then, you're also able to search, filter, and zoom in on a property and be like, "Okay, these are all the work orders. This is how we spent maintenance on this property." As we move forward and we start to integrate with other systems, that's something that Intercom would probably not do. Jason: They're going to put this chat tool probably on their website, so people coming there if they have maintenance requests, do they hide it like, "Go here for maintenance and then the chat is there"? Or is it [...] and if so, the maintenance coordination is one side, but they also have lead gen that they're trying to do. They have sales. They're trying to target owners and capture people with their live chat tools. How do you usually recommend they segregate that or can Proper help up with that other challenge as well? Mark: Good question. The way the application is working right now is that the live chatting or website, if you're using something like Intercom, that is something that we're not providing right now. Essentially, what happens is that property managers will announce that they're using Proper to their network, share the app, then they're able to install it, and then start reporting through there. It comes into our web app and mobile app. As a property manager, you can use the app from anywhere, but you could also use it at your desktop. From there, is where to start to field everything. Jason: So, Proper works more like an internal tool. When you onboard your new tenants, you can say, "Hey, get this. This is how you can communicate with us." It's probably not just functioning as the live chat tool that's capturing leads on the front-end of your business, but you could always take that tool and put links into it or pre-written messages to say, "Oh, it's a maintenance request. Go here." [...] Intercom a button that they click, that I'm here for maintenance and it takes them to Proper to take care of that. Mark: Yeah and one of the really interesting things is that we're starting to build email integrations, so the initial one that we built is that if you receive an email that's coming in from a tenant and it's maintenance-related, we build the Chrome extension where very easily just sends it to Proper and then it turns it into actual work orders. You're not actually trying to do double data entry there. The next step of that is making it so that your tenants and contractors don't have to join Proper. They can submit things via email, but then you have one place where it's starting to aggregate everything, whether it's submitted directly to Proper or through another channel like email. That's one of the really exciting features for these next two months that we're working on should be out. Jason: So, that will be similar to Intercom, which you can have a certain email address like maintenance@businessname.com and have that forward those emails into Proper? Mark: Yeah, it all vacuums it right up and then as it comes in, you're able to categorize it and make it something that is not mixed with thousands of other's emails but rather centralized and easy to find just like any of the other maintenance tickets. Jason: It sounds like it would make sense for them to have some sort of support solution and still use Proper for the maintenance portion for the back-end, and internally with tenants. Very cool. What other questions then do people tend to ask? Mark: One of the big ones is really that email integration that I just mentioned. That's essentially what we've been doing is tons of user research and starting to find what are the biggest problems. Using that is like having it bubble up to the top and turning it into features that are usable to them. Jason: One of the challenges in maintenance is the communication between vendor and owner is getting paid, payouts. What if the vendor starts messaging and they're like, "Hey, property manager, when do I get paid? Here's my invoice," and the tenants are seeing this stuff. How do you deal with that? Mark: I'm glad you asked that because that's literally the feature we're rolling out right now. We're waiting for the upstart to approve and by the way, we're on iOS, Android, and web. The next thing I told you, we make it really easy for your maintenance staff or techs to create invoices and generate them. We're actually about to roll out payments where they're able to get to pay through ACH and really it's cut out a lot of time for the contractors to generate those invoices or even for the property managers to [...] and all these things which I still see very frequently happening. Jason: In the app, the contractor maybe see something a little different and they can submit invoice or something like this? Mark: Yeah. Basically, when the contractor closes up the job, they provide proof that they did it and they're prompted to create an invoice. Jason: And one proof would be another photo, something along these lines? Mark: Yeah. You're able to add multiple photos as the contractor. This then generates an invoice that the property manager receives. This is a separate view where the tenant is not part of it. They're not anything around cost, they're not seeing this. The property manager is actually able to pay via ACH directly to the contractor through the app. There's no need to go elsewhere and try to cut a check, having anyone pick it up, or mail it, or anything like that. Jason: So again, it's reducing a lot of the friction and communication challenges between the property manager or maintenance coordinator and the vendors. Mark: Yeah. That's one thing that we've seen on both sides of the equation. A lot of property managers are still spending a lot of time just doing payments. On the contractor side, they are spending a lot of time generating invoices. They have a good support, so at the end of the week, they're tying up all the work that they did. They don't even necessarily have the good system to keep track of all the jobs that they did. So, they're often once again spending this admin time where they're not actually getting paid to do that. What happens now is that with the invoicing feature, although it's simple and very intuitive, it actually reduces the amount of time that they're doing this stuff, they're able to get paid faster, and they're able to spend a lot less time worrying about the stuff and actually getting more work done, which means your maintenance is getting done faster, which means your tenants are happier, which means you're happier as a property manager because you're hearing less from them. It's really an interesting problem because you have these three different groups of people and you're trying to design the simplest solution that takes into account their unique set of problems. Jason: If you imagine, what would be the ideal situation so that all three parties could communicate the most efficiently? You would just have all three of them sitting in a room face-to-face talking like, "Hey, you'll do this. I'll do this." "Okay, I'll pay you then. I'll do this." "Okay, team. Ready? Great." Everybody's there, it would be fast, but that's not reality, right? Mark: Yeah. Jason: You're trying to run a business and so is the vendor. The tenant should hopefully has a job and making some money to pay rent. There's all this stuff going on, we can't just all hang out, but Proper really creates a room that they can all hang out in and communicate. Mark: It's great that you actually put it that way because that's very much how I think about solving this problem. When you're in person with sometime, it is the richest form of communication. If it's a group of people, then the bottlenecks or the walls that exist, that is created through distance, creates all these inefficiencies. Essentially, that is actually how we think. That is what we want to be able to create these rooms and make this very efficient, yet rich way to communicate with each other, to eliminate a lot of these barriers that are currently costing a lot of time, which includes money, and often just frustration. One thing that I didn't mention here is that I spent a whole year working out of a property manager's office. You can call it extreme customer development and I really understood a lot of their operations and just so much of their time is spent on communication, but because they don't have good tools for it, it just generates a lot of frustration on each side of it. Assuming that it's hard to measure, the quality of life when you're constantly doing frustration just really goes down. Jason: Yeah. Plus there's a lot of turn-over. Among the property managers that are working for a property management business owner, it's very difficult. Mark: What's true of us as a company is to improve that quality of life because we know how gruesome the job can be, how hard it can be, how taxing it can be. If you use our app, it's very colorful. We kind of joke around in the copy and we try to make it not just extremely efficient but fun. We want to make it [...] inject a little bit of fun into it. I don't think that I see that very much in the space yet, which is one of the things I'm very excited about is that I want to bring that to the space. Jason: Some of the things I've seen in some apps lately that people have been doing to gamify things, which is really funny, that once you complete something or you finish something, you get confetti and balloon noises and stuff like this, like this is a little celebration. So, I'm just going to throw this is a feature request that after a maintenance is completed and somebody marks complete to get […] and they get this little celebration thing. It gives them that dopamine boost to get things done and they feel good about it. Mark: Oh yeah. That's actually something that now that we're starting to mature as a company and we're getting ahead with the feature set and the road map, that's something that we actually can bring into it. So, given my part of design background, I also know a lot of animators and illustrators. As you can see, we have a lot of illustrations. We very much want to use those opportunities. When you've succeeded at doing something, really just letting you know. Jason: Even rewarding a tenant for using the system. Instead of calling you, like they submit a ticket and you're like, "You've done it! Good job!" All these little things just create positivity and they add a positive feel to the property management company. The tenants are usually pretty upset if there's a maintenance request. The vendors are having to deal with that, the property manager. Anywhere you can add a little bit of fun and gamification into an app, I think is [...] world a little bit more fun. Mark: Yeah. There's no reason you can't have fun doing this job. I want to save you time, but like in this, get you to crack a smile a couple of times a day. It's not just about saving time but it's about being able to continue to do that job and be happy doing it. Jason: All right, cool. Mark, I really enjoy having you on the show. One thing that might be cool, it would be after a maintenance request is submitted, if we did an integration with GatherKudos, real super easy, super simple. [...] whether they're happy or sad. Mark: I'm totally happy to talk about that. Jason: All right. That would be cool. It's really great to have you on. How can people get in touch with Proper? How can do a demo? How can they find out more? Mark: We actually created a unique link for the show, so if you go to proper.chat/doorgrow, you can definitely learn a little bit about our products and then very easily set-up a demo with us. Again the tool is super easy to use, so we are happy to set-up a demo with you. It shouldn't take more than five minutes. Once you start seeing the product it becomes very quickly evident how this can start saving you time and also maybe make you smile. Jason: Awesome. All right, everybody check that out. I appreciate you setting up that link. That's awesome. Go to proper.chat/doorgrow and check it out. You get a little special perk for being a DoorGrow Show listener. Mark, really grateful for you coming on the show. I love hearing about new technology. I think this sounds really innovative and I think it solves a problem. I think that it will really be beneficial and I'm really excited to see what you guys do in this space and start hearing some feedback from my clients on what they think. Mark: Yeah. Thanks for giving me time and always a pleasure to talk. I look forward to checking in again soon. Jason: Cool. Yeah, we'll be talking again soon. All right, I'll let Mark out. If you are a property management entrepreneur and you're looking to add doors, you've been struggling, you're wondering why does it feel like there's scarcity in an industry and 70% are self-managing. There's no scarcity in property management right now. There just isn't, but they're not looking on Google. You're going to have some trouble if your whole goal is you have people find you through Google. There are ways to go out and create business and we're focusing on that. So, stay tuned with DoorGrow, keep an eye on us, and if you're wanting to grow your business, if you want to short some of the leaks in your sales pipeline, you want to dial in trust engine, have generate more warm leads and warm business, it's easier to close and have less conversations about price, price sensitivity, and comparison to other companies, that's what we do. Reach out and talk to DoorGrow. We'll be happy to help you add doors to your business, figure out how you can optimize your business for growth and creating trust. Again, I'm Jason Hull with DoorGrow here on the DoorGrow Show. I appreciate you tuning in. Please like and subscribe on whichever channel your hearing this on, whether it's YouTube, iTunes, Facebook, whatever. Stay plugged in and make sure you get inside our DoorGrow Club Facebook group where we are putting out discontent. We have an awesome community of DoorGrow hackers like you. So, check it out doorgrowclub.com. That's all for today, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

To celebrate the 100th episode of the DoorGrowShow, I'm doing something a bit different. Instead of me interviewing someone, I'm the one being asked the questions. Today, I am featuring my appearance as a guest on the Cashflow Diary (CFD) podcast hosted by J. Massey. We discuss my journey into property management and how to optimize a business through organic growth to achieve success. You'll Learn... [05:00] Today's entrepreneurs are like yesterday's superheroes. They save lives. [06:01] Who is Jason Hull? Someone who has never managed a property, but helps others grow and scale their property management business. [06:48] Being an entrepreneur is in his DNA: Grew up with an entrepreneurial mother, who taught him to make more money and beat the competition. [08:16] Failed Marriage and "Disney" Dad: Jason needed a job that offered freedom and autonomy to spend time with his kids and create clients. [10:13] Website Design, Marketing,and Branding: How to win when competing with Goliaths and make it to the top of Google. [11:53] Financial Decisions: Entrepreneurs like to make money, not lose it. [15:25] Conventional to Comfortable Confidence: Do what works for you, not others, to lower pressure noise. [20:15] Curiosity: See what others don't and causes businesses to lose leads and deals. [21:55] Still struggling with imposter syndrome? Hire a business coach who believes in you to rebuild confidence and effective communication to make a difference. [28:55] Why choose property management and deal with tenants, toilets, and termites? [32:53] Why choose Jason and DoorGrow? He helps create positive awareness and address negative perception surrounding property management. [40:00] Cold vs. Warm Leads: Prospecting pipeline plugs leaks to grow business and get people to know, like, and trust you. [44:56] How do good property owners find good property managers? Avoid sandtraps of solopreneurs with few doors; add doors to build a property portfolio. [49:10] Short-term Rental Success: Get a property manager to solve revenue issues. [52:32] Precipice of Decision: Believe in yourself, make it happen, and decide to be different by listening to your truest voice. Tweetables Today's entrepreneurs and yesterday's superheroes save lives and make the world a better place. Entrepreneurism: Insatiable desire to learn and explore opportunities. Entrepreneurs: Allow yourself to do what you need to do to lower the pressure noise. Entrepreneurs create positive, uncomfortable change wherever they go. Resources CFD 542 – Jason Hull On How Property Management Can Change The World Jason Hull on Facebook Steve Jobs 6 Non-QWERTY Keyboard Layouts Alex Charfen (Business Coach) Momentum Podcast DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: This is a special episode because this is our 100th episode. What I wanted to do was share something different. I've been on a lot of other people's podcasts recently and this was one that I really enjoyed, this was with J. Massey of the Cash Flow Diary podcast. He was a really great interviewer, I really enjoyed being on the show. He asked a lot of questions and it really dug into me. I'm not used to somebody really digging into hearing about me as much. I'm usually the one digging in and hearing about other people. I thought my listeners would enjoy this podcast so I asked J. Massey if we could have permission to put this on our podcast and he was glad to let us do so. You get to hear this interview of me being on this episode of the Cash Flow Diary with J. Massey. Enjoy the show. Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. J: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of the Cash Flow Diary podcast. I'm your host, J. Massey. I'm glad that you are here today because we are going to talk about something that I know, and my guest knows, is one of the most, if not the most, critical piece for your success, not only in business but specifically, the real estate world. I know that many of us were out there. We're trying to grow our cash flow. We're trying to make things happen. Build a bigger, better business, and you're doing it and you're succeeding, and that's great. Also at the same time, many of you are like, "Man, if I could just figure out how to take what I'm doing in business and do it in real estate too, that would be great." Some of you are like, "Man, I just want to grow that real estate portfolio and make it a little bit bigger and better, but I'm still having some challenges in these specific areas because I can't find any good help. I can't make anybody do what I think is common sense. There's just not enough common best practices out there. How on earth, J, can I find that particular property manager?" Or maybe you are that property manager and you're going, "You know what? How on earth can I find that owner that actually knows what's up and won't drive me nuts?" I believe we have solutions for you today. I have with me today none other than CEO, Jason Hull of DoorGrow, doorgrow.com. Some of you may actually know him from his podcast, the DoorGrow Show. What's going to be interesting today is that Jason wasn't always a property manager. We're going to get to find out the story, the journey, and most importantly, learn the lessons around entrepreneurship along the way that have allowed us the world to be able to know and love Jason the way that he is. Here's what we're going to do, ladies and gentlemen. We're going to pay attention, we're going to make sure that, yes, I know you're walking the dog and doing the dishes, but you're going to hit that mark, you're going to bookmark those spots so that you can come back and listen to the gems that he's going to drop. Most importantly right now though, let's just welcome Jason Hull. Jason, how are you doing? Jason: Wow, that's a great intro. I really appreciate that. J: Thank you. I'm glad that you were here. I'm also excited because we're going to be talking about something that I'm passionate about. Real estate's really important, but more importantly, it's the people and the teams that you hire that tend to make things go well, and sometimes, not go so well. I'm looking forward to that, but before I get down there, I have to ask you the same question I didn't ask everybody else the first time that they're here, are you ready? Jason: Do it. J: All right. I tend to look at today's entrepreneurs a lot like yesterday's superheroes—Batman, Robin, Hulk, Wonder Woman, you get the idea—because I think entrepreneurs and superheroes have a ton of things in common. For example, as an entrepreneur, occasionally, I can envision myself using our products and services, flying around town, and saving customers one sale at a time. Also, like a superhero, an entrepreneur has a beginning. If you think about Spider-Man, for example, there was a time where he's just a kid going to school, doing his own thing, taking some photos, and then one day gets bit by a spider, discovers he's got a superhuman ability, and now he has to choose, "Will I use my newfound talents for good or for evil?" My question to you is as follows. Before DoorGrow, before your podcast, before your degree in marketing, your website design, before being a property manager, before everything we know you for today, what we want to know is who is Jason Hull? Jason: That's a deep question. Let's sum up a whole person really quickly here. J: No pressure. Jason: Yeah, no pressure. First thing, let me just correct something real quick, I had never managed property in my life, yet I somehow am attracting property management entrepreneurs from all over the US and beyond, asking for help in growing and scaling their businesses. I'm more of a nerd that used to be secretly in the background, helping them and had to push myself out into the limelight to make a difference in an industry that I could see there was an obvious change needed to be made. But my background growing up, I grew up with an entrepreneur mother. She is this amazing, loving, charismatic woman that is a real estate agent. She's just had hustle in her since she was a little kid. She's told me stories of she saw the other boys mowing lawns and she was doing babysitting when she was young, she was like, "They're making way more money than me." She went around and she figured, "I could undercut them by a dollar, go door-to-door, and steal their business, and start offering to mow lawn." She started mowing lawns to make more money. She just had that bite in her to accomplish and do things. I didn't see myself as an entrepreneur, I didn't really know what an entrepreneur was, yet, I think it was just in my DNA. I was the guy in college that decided, "Hey, I want a band so I'm going to start one. I'm going to write all the music." I was a guy going door-to-door, pre-selling CDs at girls' dorms with a guitar in hand and a clipboard for an album that didn't exist so that I could pay for the recording time so I could fund an album, but I wasn't an entrepreneur. J: Yeah. No, that's not entrepreneurial at all. Jason: I was thinking I needed to go get a job. I was like, "I'm going to finish college and I got to then find a job." What thrust me into entrepreneurism is I had gotten married really young and the marriage fell apart. I had two kids and I needed to be able to have time that I could spend with them. I didn't want to just be Disney-dad. I had to create a situation in which I had freedom and autonomy. The other factor that played into it is my employer at the time got hit by the whole financial mess back in 2006–2007, I guess, and could no longer pay me. I was just doing nerdy stuff for them at the time. Then I realized, they were now a client. I started reaching out and creating clients. One of the earliest people I had helped was my brother who was just getting started in the property management business. He had just bought a property management franchise, he was fresh out of college with his business partner, they had no doors under management, and they had this terrible website they got from corporate. He was like, "Can you just help me figure this out because you're smart? What do I need to do?" I'm like, "Add some phases to it. That'll increase conversion rates. Let's do this and that." He's like, "Can you just do it for me? Can you please just build me a site?" I'm like, "Sure, but you're going to pay for it." He's like, "Okay, no problem." I built him a website and then suddenly, all of his fellow franchisees—this franchise had maybe 200–300 franchisees in it—and I started attracting these people that had thousands of doors. They wanted what he had. They're like, "Hey, what he has is better. I want that." Really quickly, here's me, a freelancer, web designer, starting to do websites for people with thousands of doors. Some of these are probably million-dollar-plus businesses. They had really great backlinks, so I was at the top of Google pretty quickly and started getting clients around the US within a short time. I was competing against Goliaths, just me. There we go, now then I'm an entrepreneur. I think I just have an insatiable desire to learn, I just always have, and entrepreneurship allows me to really explore and it's really exciting. J: Got it. Now I see how I got confused about the difference between understanding what it is you do versus being a property manager. It's more you help property managers, is what it sounds like, become better versions of themselves with their marketing and advertising. Am I close? Jason: Yeah. Over the years, I've shifted more into coaching and consulting, but we still do websites, we clean up branding. What I tell property management entrepreneurs in short when they come and ask me what I do, I'd say, "I'm not going to teach you how to do property management. I'm hoping you already know that and you're good at it. I'm going to teach you how to win, that's it." Basically, what we do in short is we rehab property management companies so that they cash flow effectively, so that they have revenue, they have growth. We optimize their business more for organic. We're cleaning up their branding. Probably 60% or 70% of my clients that come to me, I change their business name, which is ridiculous if you consider how painful, challenging, or scary it is for somebody to do that, but I'm really good at helping them see the principles that impact their decisions about what's going to make money or cost them money. Then it becomes just a financial decision. One thing I know about entrepreneurs is that they usually like to make money. J: Yes, definitely, but what I like about what you've shared with us here is to some degree, you're in what I would call the reluctant entrepreneur category because you weren't even considering like, "I'm not one of those. That's not what I do," and then over time, you start displaying these traits. Now I'm curious, did your mom ever suggest that, "Hey, son, you might be…" and you have this conversation with her like, "No, no, no, I just need to go get a job?" was that ever a thing? Jason: I don't know if I was reluctant. It just wasn't something that anyone had ever explained to me. I don't even know if I really was clear on what technically an entrepreneur was. I think I'd always had an entrepreneurial spirit. I had a paper out as a kid, my mom would have us fold flyers to canvass neighborhoods for real estate as little kids. She would pay us a penny per fold, if we folded a piece of paper twice, we get two cents. I would fold hundreds and then she would have us go around either on roller skates, scooters, or whatever, go around neighborhoods and just canvas and put those out. She'd keep an eye on us, walk around a bit with us, and we would just canvas neighborhoods. I think I was just raised with it and no one had ever put a label on it. J: Oh, man, this is great. I'm sure some people right now are listening like, "A penny a fold? That's nothing." I'm sure that happens in somebody's head, but the principle was clearly laid down for you in such a way that you're like, "I'll do it. Okay, let's go," and you didn't care, and spending time with mom is always awesome. But at the same time, this desire gets left behind and you just keep finding ways to create opportunity. That's what I hear when you talk is you just find ways to create opportunity relative to something that you're currently enjoying. I am curious though did you ever actually get the concert CD album sold? How'd that work out? Jason: I did. We did create the album, we created the CD, I wrote all the music for it, I sang every song on it, and yeah, we got it recorded. It's a pretty decent little album for being self-produced. I was very into the Beatles at the time. J: Okay, yes. There's something else that you're also mentioning, the thing that thrust you, I would say is the correct word, into considering something in entrepreneurship in a more realistic fashion was the combination of kids and your employer not being able to employ you, but most importantly, I hear of a deep-seated value. You're just like, "You know what? Working for someone else can be fine, but I have two kids now and I value spending more time with them, so I'm going to become or do whatever it takes to make sure that I can do that." I'm curious to know where that comes from. Jason: I think at the core of people that are really entrepreneurial, they know deep down that they're unemployable. Let's be honest. I worked at HP, I worked at Verizon, I was in call centers, I did a lot of nerdy jobs, I was a nerd, and tech support, stuff like that. In every situation I was in, I think something about me is I create positive uncomfortable change everywhere I go. It's just how I'm wired. I cannot be somewhere and leave things as the status quo. I don't do anything normally. If you could see the keyboard sitting on my desk right now, it's not even in QWERTY order, I pop all the keys off and rearrange them when I get a new computer and keyboard. J: I want a picture now that you said that, but okay. Jason: Yes, somebody can just Google if they want to see a different keyboard layout. J: Dvorak? Jason: Dvorak, yeah. J: Yeah, that's the only other thing. I was like, "What else could it be?" The only other thing I was thinking was Dvorak. But okay, that makes sense. Jason: Yeah, because I'm the guy that my brain just says, "Why is everybody doing it this way? Is this the best way? If it's not, I don't care." Conventional standards mean very little to me. There's a lot of quirky things about me, and I think entrepreneurs are quirky. You look at Steve Jobs or you look at different entrepreneurs, they have weird habits. Like Steve Jobs, I wear the same clothes every day. I have black t-shirts, I have black pants, I have a whole closet full of black pants and black t-shirts. I just want it simple. I don't want to have to make decisions about that. I wear black hoodies, and I put on a conference, I've been around lots of people in business suits, that's what I wear because I don't care. I just want to be comfortable and that's what I wear. I think ultimately, as entrepreneurs, we need to allow ourselves to do what we need to do to lower the pressure noise instead of trying to play everybody else's game. For example, with the keyboard, I realized my wrists were hurting. I was typing a lot. I was getting my degree online at the time, I was also working, and I was typing a lot. I was like, "This seems stupid, this is really dumb. Why are my wrists hurting?" I did what I like to do, which is nerd out, and do some research in Google and I realized, "Oh, Dvorak has 50% less movement, it would cut my movement in half." The home row on the left hand is all the most commonly-used vowels and the home row on the right hand is all the most commonly used consonants, so there's more back and forth between the two hands. QWERTY's history was that it was designed and developed to slow down typist. The keys used to be in alphabetical order and they wanted to screw them up because they were typing too fast and the typewriters couldn't handle the speed. I'm like, "Okay, why am I doing this?" It took me, maybe about a month to get used to typing in a different format. My wrist issues went away and I was a lot more comfortable. J: I like you a lot, I like this. It's like, "Hey, this doesn't work for me. We're going to figure out what does." I now have this question. What was that transition moment? There's usually a moment at which, like I said earlier, the superhero recognizes. "I have something special here, and now I get to choose what I'm going to do with it." You clearly had that moment, but that moment is often, we'll call it rocky, not as smooth, or there's usually some strong emotions around it in some way, shape, or form, or some pivotal conversation. What was it like when you realize, "My employer can't pay me. I guess they'll become a client," and then you go, "Huh, maybe what I need to do is develop a surface around this whole thing and do my own thing?" What was that like? Jason: I think really for me, it's been a longer journey than just right in the beginning. A lot of people see me is a really confident guy, but I really have a strong introverted side. I wasn't that confident guy. In school, I did a lot of performing, I did music, stuff like that, but I still had a strong introverted side. I think that confidence level, part of it happened early on working with entrepreneurs and just recognizing that they couldn't see things I could see. I was like, "You can't see that this is a problem, that you're branded as a real estate company and it's causing you to lose probably 50% of the deals and leads you should be because you're a property management business, but on the tenants as real estate. There were just things they didn't see that seems so obvious to me. The other thing is I'm really curious. With each client I would work with, just to do a website, I would probably spend on average about six hours doing a planning and discovery process over, maybe a period of a week or two with them. Multiple sessions, getting clear on their target audience, their avatar, what needs to be included in the website, what their avatar's pain is, what they want. It became really clear to me that most of the websites were focused on tenants, yet they're not hunting for tenants, they don't have problems getting tenants, they want more owners to manage properties for. It just seemed obvious to me that everything was off on the websites that existed at the time. I think I just grew in confidence that I could help people, but I still stayed heavily in the background. I was also in a rough marriage, my second marriage. I was in a marriage in which I didn't really have belief. I didn't have somebody that believed in me and that didn't help the confidence thing going. Eventually, I signed up with a business coach. I went through several different coaches. Some I was a bad fit for, honestly, I just wasn't ready for them. Some, they were a bad fit. Some maybe were really great marketers and terrible coaches. I eventually got a really great business coach that I've been working with for a couple of years now. I remember going down to meet with him in Austin. He has a fantastic podcast, by the way, called The Momentum Podcast. His name is Alex Charfen; a really brilliant guy. I went down and met with him and some other entrepreneurs down in Austin. My business was struggling, we're maybe about $300,000 in revenue annually at the time. I felt like an ant in the room. I was around entrepreneurs that had multi-million dollar companies, I felt completely unworthy, my confidence just wasn't really strong, and yet when he would open up for dialogue, I would end up captivating everyone else in the room, and that was weird for me that I was able to communicate in a way that all of them wanted to know more and they were really fascinated about what I was talking about. I had learned a lot, I just didn't have the confidence yet to put it out there. I hadn't said, "Hey, I'm going to change this entire industry. I'm the one to do it." I was like, "Somebody else should do it. Somebody that's been a property manager. Maybe somebody that runs a big, huge property management franchise should be the one." My business coach was like, "Who else could do it? You're the one that you care about it, you're the one who can see what needs to change, and they're everybody else's competition. Why would they help everybody?" I'm like, 'That's a good point," but I had wicked impostor syndrome. I think that's a challenge for entrepreneurs that we have to kill is that impostor syndrome in which we don't feel like we're enough, or we're good enough, or that we qualify, or we're worthy. We sometimes think we need to find that external validation to say that we're okay. I think that came just in working with clients. I grew in confidence in situations in which I was able to finally place myself around other entrepreneurs because one of the most damaging things we do as entrepreneurs is that we spend too much time around non-preneurs. J: Yeah, I believe you. Jason: It's painful and it's difficult because we see opportunity everywhere. We see how we can change and impact the world. We want to make a difference, we want to contribute, and the rest of the world looks at us like we're crazy, we're making them uncomfortable. "Why can't you leave good enough alone?" They hear the struggles we go through as an entrepreneur and they say, "Why don't you just get a job?" They look at us like we're crazy and then we look at them like, "Why don't I just slit my wrists now? How can you just sit there and tolerate, complaining about your boss and your job, and living for the weekend? Don't you want something bigger?" We don't understand them, but I think if we're around non-preneurs too much, it wears us down. It breaks us a little bit. It's really hard and I hadn't really yet been around entrepreneurs. I think as entrepreneurs are starting out in our early development when we're in the early stages of being an entrepreneur, one of the biggest things that hold us back is being lonely. That's it. We're just not around other people like us to say, "You're normal. You, as an entrepreneur, are awesome, amazing, and you can change the world. You don't have to live by everybody else's rules." J: Agreed. There's something that you said that I often have thought about myself. I know that there are people who are listening have had that same thought at least once. You mentioned that yes, we desire to make a difference, we want to see change, and we're not happy with the, 'That's just not the way you do it, it should be this way." That's just how we roll, and yet we're the ones who can see the problem. Like your business coach is saying, why aren't we the ones who can resolve it? But more importantly or said a different way, does that come across to you when you can see an issue? Does it come across to you—I know it does for me—as a responsibility like, "Okay, it's me, obviously. I'm the one who sees it, this is my thing. So, let me go solve this problem"? That's how it feels to me when I notice opportunity or something that's just not right that could be better. Jason: Yeah. I think there are two sides to this. I think one, opportunity. On the negative side, I think opportunity also can kill us as entrepreneurs because we do see it everywhere. It can be incredibly distracting. There's that opportunist in all of us, and if we focus on too many opportunities, we don't really get to make any headway in anyone. That's a temptation and a challenge entrepreneurs deal with early on is struggle to focus and to niche down. On the positive side, we see that the world can be better. We can see it. We are the change-makers. We are the people throughout history, throughout time eternal probably, that were the ones that would move society forward. We would make everyone uncomfortable, we would change something, and we would move people towards a higher and better ideal. J: Now, let me ask you this question. You could have chosen any industry to serve. Why property managers? I've spent so much time as the one owning the property. This may sound funny to you, but I never considered that property managers had a problem finding owners. That never occurred to me because it just never occurred to me that they had that as a business problem. Obviously, it's there because you're saying it, but as an entrepreneur, you could choose to serve anybody. You could have taken this skill to any industry, so to speak, because believe me, they're not the only one with a problem. Why property management? Jason: That's a really good point. I don't think there was a time in my life as a child that I woke up and said, "I want to help property management business owners when I grow up. I want to get into this industry that's focused on toilets, tenants, and termites, that sounds exciting to me." J: It's right after firemen, I understand. Jason: Yeah, I'll either be a superhero or I will be a property management coach. J: Yeah, absolutely, totally right. Jason: No, that's a great question. I think I resisted it, to be honest, in the beginning. It came to me like I just started attracting them, I tried to just help every type of business though, still, I didn't niche out. It took me a while. I started my corporation, my company back in 2008, but DoorGrow as a brand was maybe only four or five years ago. It took me a little while to, I guess, choose into that niche fully. I think it was imposter syndrome like, "I've never done this so I feel like I'm not the person to do it." For a lot of people, it's not the sexiest industry. Here's how you fall in love with property management.If you're an entrepreneur that's a little bit nerdy, property management is like the systemizable, more tech-savvy version of the real estate industry. It's residual income instead of the hunt and the chase for the next deal as a realtor. It's a business that can be optimized over time. It's a business that can follow the theory of constraints and you can make processes around. All of that appealed to me. What I really fell in love with was not property management. It's the people that are property managers. Do you want to talk about resilient, innovative entrepreneurs? Property management entrepreneurs. You cannot imagine the level of challenges, difficulty, and negotiating. I don't think there's any industry like it because in terms of customer interaction, it's rated third behind retail and hospitality; it's heavily a people business. In retail and hospitality, you're not negotiating really difficult situations not unlike a lawyer between two opposed parties as the middle person, but in property management that's what you end up doing. These are really some of the sharpest people. They're just amazing entrepreneurs to be around and honestly, I just chose into doing it because I wanted to be around people that are like me. Entrepreneurs. I love my clients. I love being able to spend time with them. I do not feel weird and I really enjoy that. I have a nerdy background and a lot of the clients that are attracted to me, they like figuring out processes, systems, technology, and that sort of thing. There's just a strong resonance in the type of entrepreneur that is in that industry. J: For the person that's listening right now that happens to be a property manager or maybe it's an owner who's currently doing his own property management in some way, shape, or form, what would you say are the top three things you tend to assist a new client with from day one? How do they know, how can they recognize, "Oh, I need Jason"? What is it that you end up doing over there at DoorGrow for them typically in that first appointment or the first solutions you guys come to the table with? Jason: Let's go back to the question you asked me earlier about the surprising problem that exists in property management. J: Yeah, that is still a thing in my head like, "Wow, I didn't know they had problems finding me? I didn't know that." Jason: Yeah, every business exists to solve a problem. If a business is not solving a problem, they're stealing money. The problem that exists in the property management industry that I could see, property management has two major challenges. The biggest challenge first is awareness, there are a lot of people that have property. In the US, in single-family residential rental properties, only about 30% are professionally managed, 70% are self managing. The first biggest hurdle is awareness, there's just a lot of people that are not aware of what a property management company would do for them. The average Joe on the street if you said, "Hey, I'm a property manager," they would say, "Great, I guess you manage a property." They don't really know what that means. There's a strong lack of awareness to the point where property management really is relatively, in the US, in its infancy. Let's contrast that with Australia. In Australia, 80% of single-family residential rentals are professionally managed. There are reasons for that. There's steeper legislation there, it's more consumer-focused and a lot of that, but the word on the street is that it grew 25% in a decade, it grew massively. But in the US, property management still is this ugly cousin of real estate, it has this negative perception, especially among real estate. The other challenge is property management is the number one source of property management-related issues like fair housing challenges, mismanagement of trust funds, or leases, all this stuff, property management is the number one source of complaints at most any board of real estate. Not real estate, property management is. So, everything property management. This is why it's perpetuated heavily among the real estate industry. Realtors say, "Oh, property management. That's gross. Don't touch that. How could you do that?" The second hurdle that takes the next big portion of potential market share away is perception. Property management has a very negative perception among investors, among people that are aware of it. There's a negative perception that takes away the next big chunk of potential market share. After perception takes a hit, those that are aware and they think they have a decent enough perception to think, "At least, I have to have one or I need one," or maybe they are okay—there are some good ones—then word-of-mouth captures what's leftover. Word-of-mouth captures the best clients that property management might get. After word-of-mouth, the scraps that fall off my client's table, that fall off the word-of-mouth table, the coldest, crappiest, worst leads that are the most price-sensitive, that view all property managers as the same and is a commodity, that are the worst owners and properties to build a portfolio on, in which you're going to have probably an operational cost in your property management company of 10 times higher than that of having healthy good doors and owners, those are the people searching on Google. That's what's leftover. Most property management business owners are trying to build their business on the back of Google. I'm wearing a t-shirt right now, you can't see, but it says, "SEO won't save you." It has a hand reaching up out of the water, trying to grab a life preserver, a black t-shirt with white lettering. This is a message I put out to the industry that they don't need to be playing the SEO lottery because, really, search volume in the property management industry has actually been on a steady decline. According to Google Trends in the US, it's been a steady decline since July of 2011. It's been going down, yet every marketer targeting the industry, every service provider, every web design company, they're shoving and pushing the concept that SEO is going to save them. They just need the top spot on Google. They're playing into this myth, so all these property managers are spending marketing dollars, their hard-earned money, they're trying to run Google Ads, everything to be at the top of Google, and they're not getting an ROI. They're not getting a return on that investment. It's an incredibly expensive game that has many potential points of failure. You have to be a property management business, usually, at about 200 to 400 doors, with a business development manager. You have to be making sure that all of your phone calls are answered and you're following up on every lead within the first 10 minutes to really play that marketing game. I found most property management business owners were not at that level. I wanted to create them, get them to that level. Originally, I was the guy doing that stuff, I was a marketing company, I was a guy helping with those type of things, and I realized really quickly that it wasn't working. They weren't even answering their phones. Why would I send them a lead that's only good for maybe about 10 minutes—that's how long an internet lead's probably good for, maybe 15—and then 80% drop off in conversion rates if they're not going to answer their phones? I just pivoted this company and I was thinking, "What would I do if I were going to start a property management business? What are all the most common problems that I can see even in the largest companies? Where are the biggest leaks in their sales pipeline?" Just like the theory of constraints, I just went from the beginning of the sales pipeline, which is that awareness. It's branding. Branding was costing some of them half the amount of deals and leads they could or should be getting. Some companies do real estate and property management. By eliminating real estate from the branding, I helped double their real estate commissions, ironically, because property management is a great front-end product. Real estate is a better back-end product. People don't wake up in the morning and say, "I want to find a realtor today. That sounds exciting to me." No. They want property, they want to find buyers, they try to for sale by owner, but eventually, they list with an agent. The property management, if you have a constant influx of owners, investors that may get into additional properties, constant influx of renters and tenants, you have buyers and sellers. You have bodies constantly flowing into the business and this is the dream of a real estate company. We just started addressing these big leaks from branding, reputation, which is word-of-mouth, their website wasn't built around conversions and targeting the audience, their sales process, pricing strategy played into this heavily, they were not priced effectively, they were taking too many deals at too low of a price point. Psychologically, for example, there are three types of buyers. Most of them just had one fee, serving one type of buyer, and there was no price anchoring. I just started to see all these different leaks that we could shore up through the pipeline so that we could optimize their business for organic growth. Then the big secret is at the front end of this. Once we get all of these leaks dialed in, their sales process, they have follow-up, all these things are in place, what spigot should we turn on through this pipeline? They could go back and do cold-lead marketing, but cold leads are terrible. Conversion rates are low even if they're a bad A. I don't know what the rating is on your podcast so I'll be careful. If they're a bad A in sales, they'll only get maybe about 30% conversion rate or close rate, but most people, say 1 out of 10 cold leads, they'll convert. The hidden killer with cold leads in any industry or business—the secret the marketers don't want to tell you—is they can't give you contracts. Marketers cannot give you contracts. You can't hand dollars to a marketer and they will hand you written signed contracts or clients. What they can hand you at best, usually, the furthest they can push it along is usually a really cold lead. That's it. That's typically what they can give you is they give you a cold lead and this cold lead then has to be nurtured. You have to warm it up. You have to get them to know you, trust you, and like you. Cold leads convert really poorly, usually, you'll get maybe 1 out of 10. The hidden killer though with cold leads is time. This is the hidden killer with cold leads that small business owners don't realize. Time on a cold lead is at least twice as much time as a warm lead or maybe three times as much. I found clients when I would ask them, "How much time do you spend warming these people up, calling them, meeting them at the property?" They say in total, in my sale-cycle time, three to six hours to close the deal. "How long does it take you a warm lead?" I was getting answers like 15 minutes, maybe an hour, it was like half, at least, half the amount of time. These small business owners, if you give them 10 leads in a week and it's going to take them 2 to 3 hours to do all the follow-up necessary and they're going to get maybe 1 or 2 deals out of it, that's a full-time job. They don't have the time, as small business owners, to do that if they're also the main person doing the selling. They just didn't have the bandwidth to do it. It wasn't even possible for me to give cold leads to clients and have them win that game. They didn't have the time. They really work part-time crappy salespeople that had maybe about 10 hours a week to focus on that piece. I had to create a system that will allow them more warm leads. Instead of the front-end of this pipeline, what I teach clients to do is to go to prospecting. There's 70% self-managing. There's so much blue ocean in property management and yet everyone's fighting over the coldest, crappiest, worst leads that fall off the word-of-mouth table, that are searching on Google in the bloody red water. It's created this false sense of scarcity that's so strong in the industry that everybody feels like the industry is scarce, yet there's 70% self-managing and none of them are really happy doing it. J: I have been doing real estate for over a decade and I have never even considered this concept from the property manager's perspective in this way. I've always considered them partners. I've never wanted the lowest guy, they're such a critical piece. Some of the things that you said, I was like, "Why would somebody bargain-basement shop for a property manager? That's just silly, you don't understand, you can't do that. That's not going to work long term," but I've never thought about the fact that they would have trouble finding the quality owners. Just hearing you describe their world, it's like, "Oh, wow, yeah. I can see why that would be a challenge." I'm curious, though, when a property manager is out there and trying to make it work—I'm just going to throw it out there—how can the good owners let the good property managers know that, "Hey, yeah, I would love to have you"? Jason: I think the biggest challenge I usually hear is that there aren't any good property managers. How do you find one that's good? Those owners feel completely unsafe. The industry has a really bad reputation as a whole. One of the concepts I teach—all these principles apply to really any industry, in any industry—branding has an impact, reputation has impact, pricing strategy has an impact. There's nothing I'm doing for this industry that is only related to this industry. I think the challenge the industry has, though, is it just has a lot less awareness, but I think that also means there's a lot more opportunity. There's a huge opportunity in property management. If we were to grow even remotely close to how Australia's grown in a decade, that would mean the industry in the US would double. I think property management could be as big as the real estate industry here in the US. There's much potential. I don't think it's been tapped. I think property management in the US has artificially been kept small and it is really a business category that's in its infancy. If you look at business categories that are relatively new in the US, you've got marijuana, vaping, and stuff like this, maybe Bitcoin or cryptocurrency, there's these fledgling industries. Property management's been around a long time, but it's still in its infancy. There's a huge potential there to grow. There are a lot of bad owners. That's true, too. The accidental investors didn't really want to have a rental property, but they needed it, and they just want to get rid of it after a year. If a property manager builds their portfolio on those type of doors, which some do, they have to replace every single client every single year. J: Yeah, that's an untenable situation that would go with that. Jason: Yeah. You'll find property managers fall into this first sand trap of 50 units or so. One question you can ask them is, "How many doors do you have under management?" If they're in the 50 or 60 door category, then I call that the first sand trap. That's one of my key avatars that I want to help is to get them out of that first sand trap. I call that the solopreneur sand trap where they're doing everything in the business, they've taken on too many clients at too low of a price point. And this applies to any industry. As a small business owner, you take on too many clients at too low of a price point, you back yourself into a financial corner, and you take on the worst clients because you're needy, and your operational costs with bad clients are 10 times higher than that of having good clients, easily. One bad property or a bad owner that tries to micromanage you is easily 10 times the operational cost, time and attention, and stress as one good door or one good owner, easily. If you build a portfolio of that, you're stuck. You're backed into a financial corner, you can't afford to hire anybody, and you're losing as many doors as you're getting on in a year. You're stuck. Sometimes, I have to tell them to do really painful stuff like fire customers in order to create space. J: Yeah, that makes 100% sense. For those that have listened to this far and want to find out more about what you've got going on, what's going to be the best way for them to track you down? Jason: I love connecting with other entrepreneurs and a really easy way for them to connect with me, I'm on every social channel—probably—that exists, because I'm nerdy, as @KingJasonHull. They can connect with me as @KingJasonHull on any social channel, especially Facebook. Then if they're in real estate and they're really considering getting into property management, they've managed rental properties, they feel like they know how to do it, but they want to grow that side of the business and maybe feed their real estate side, or they're a property management entrepreneur that's been struggling at doors and they want to make a difference and grow, then they can just reach out to us at doorgrow.com. J: Okay, I've got a question I just got to ask now. I wasn't going to do this, but I got to ask. My entire world when it comes to real estate, is all around the whole world of short-term rentals. It's what we do, it's what we teach, it's how our students have achieved success. One of the interesting things is that when we're interfacing with individuals, we often get the question, "Why don't I just get a property manager?" I'm like, "You don't understand. What we are talking about is completely different than what a property manager would typically do." I'm just curious if the whole idea of short-term rentals or things of that nature, because being able to add that, if property managers took that on, they'd be able to solve some of their revenue issues for sure. Is that something you're seeing happening and in any way with your clients? Jason: Yeah, I think there is a trend of short-term rentals coming into the space. If long-term rental property management is in its infancy, I think that's even younger. There are property managers, especially in more resort-like areas where vacation rentals are more popular, I think all of them have some, they get into that, especially the larger management companies, just by nature of having a larger business and lots of different investors, they're going to have some short-term rentals. Short-term rentals make a lot of sense for them. It's a lot of turnovers, it's a lot more work, but it also can be a lot more payout for them. There is a trend shifting towards that. J: Yeah. I just asked because, in order to do it effectively, there's just specialization that's required. That's why we just stepped up and started doing it because we can't find the property manager that could do a good a job as we have learned to do and now teach others to do. It's just like, "You know what? We'll just do it ourselves." That's what's happening, but at the same time, in the back of my head, I'm like, "Man, they're missing an opportunity. If they would just understand some of these things that we're doing, I think it would work well." I was just curious, it's been in the back of my head, I'm like, "I wonder, considering you're helping them put their services together." Jason: Yeah, J, be careful because that is the story that almost all of my clients tell me. You may end up in this industry. That's what they all tell me. They all come to me and they're like, "I started this business X number of years ago and it was because we were investors and we couldn't find a property manager that was good enough to do things the way that we needed it done, so we started one. They're all bad and we're good," I hear that almost every day. J: Oh, man, I love it. Okay, as we wind down, I've got a final question for you because I'm really curious to hear your answer. Here's what I know. I know that individuals started the call on one spot, and now, as we're ending, they're in a different spot. They're at what I like to call the precipice of decision. It's where they go, "You know what? That's it. I can do this. I can make this happen." Maybe they are a property manager and, "Yeah, I should call Jason. That's exactly what I need to do. I need to track him down, figure this out." They're drawing that proverbial line in the sand, they're saying that's it, and now they're going to be different. Now, Jason, you know like I know that when we make those types of decisions, we often have a companion, and it's a companion that comes in the form of a voice that says things like, "You? Now, you know good and well last time you tried anything, it didn't really work out. What on earth are you thinking about? Oh, my gosh, no one's going to buy anything from you. You're not going to be able to get any clients, whatsoever, so why don't you just go back to your job?" For some people, they're related to that voice. My question to you is as follows. Let's pretend that this time it's going to be different. This time they're going to do exactly what you suggest and they're going to do so in the next 24 to 48 hours. What would you suggest that they do? Jason: If somebody has a voice, especially if it's an external voice, saying, "You don't have what it takes. You can't do this. You need to play it safe," they need to find another voice. The truest voice that we all have is the voice deep down. That's never the voice that we have deep down. When somebody says, "Oh, deep down I knew it would be like this," or, "Deep down I knew I should have done this," or, "Deep down, I just knew it was the right move." The voice deep down—you can call that the voice of God, you can call that your intuition, you can call it your gut—is the truest voice and that's the only voice we really should be listening to. Let me close an open loop I left open earlier. I mentioned how I was down in Austin, I'd met with my business coach for the first time down there, I was around all the other entrepreneurs, I felt like an ant in the room, but I was sharing ideas, they were resonating with it. My business coach asked me to describe what I did and he said, "Oh, that'll never work." Then, I explained to how much money I was making and what I was doing, so he understood it, he looked at me and he said, "Jason, you have a $20 million company and you don't even know it." Do you want to know what I started doing? I started crying. I had had little validation, I had much resistance from spouse, I just had no support around me in terms of being connected to entrepreneurs, I started crying in front of a room of other entrepreneurs. I needed that in that moment, badly. Fast forward. In a year, I had 300% growth. We were a million-dollar company in about a year. I was crying and it was like a cathartic thing that somebody could see what I felt deep down and they believed in me. I don't know if there's anything more powerful than that to be seen for who you really are and I think that is the love or energy that we all need as entrepreneurs in order to grow. We need that belief. J: 100%. I definitely appreciate the journey that you have been on. I thank you for taking the time to distill your knowledge down in such a way that you could then share it, become the person that's capable of sharing it, and influencing an industry that's very close to my own heart. At the end of the day, it's where it's been at for us for quite some time, it's where we're going to stay, but the more that you enable property managers to do what they do and find the customers that they need, the better I think it all gets for everyone. Just let me be the first to say thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, wisdom, and insight here with us today at the Cash Flow Diary. Jason: J, it's been an absolute pleasure. In line with what you just said, I really do believe deep down that good property management can change the world. The impact that they can have in that industry is massive. They're affecting homes, families, on the tenant and the owner's side. They're affecting people's cash flow. They're affecting their finances. They're affecting real estate investors that got into the real estate investing with the myth that it could be turnkey. The impact is massive and I think that's what gets me excited about the industry. We're contribution-focused banks as entrepreneurs, we want to have an impact. I appreciate you allowing me to share that message and to be here on your show. J: All right, ladies and gentlemen, you know what time it is? It's time for you to move at the speed of instruction. What does that mean? That means get over to doorgrow.com. That means go listen to his podcast. That also means connect with him. He said he wants to talk to you, it's very simple, ladies and gentlemen. One of the things that I hope you learn from today's episode is when you see a need, it's probably your responsibility to go fill it and just figure it out along the way. You don't need to understand everything at the beginning, but over time, you can get there. But most importantly as you heard and I heard, you want to follow that path, follow that voice that is telling you there's greatness inside. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been fun talking to you today. I look forward to talking to you soon. Until next time. Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Property managers may not know about or haven't tried maintenance coordination. But they are quickly discovering its value in making their jobs easier, manageable, and understandable. Today, I am talking to Andy Shinn of EZ Repair Hotline about implementing an Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS), Traction, and process improvement. You'll Learn... [02:40] Maintenance Coordination: Define world-class process to run for property managers to address issues and inconsistency with performance. [03:49] Growing and gaining Traction to create a structured operating model and take business to the next level. [04:32] Systems that every business needs: Operating, planning, support, and phone. [06:00] EOS predicts and creates future through annual planning for quarterly goals broken down into monthly and weekly commitments. [08:38] Constraints around Crazy: Don't get distracted; you can't do everything; force yourself to limit your focus to inspire, not control your team. [13:18] Fundamental Flaws:Take things that work well for you with Traction and EOS; leave out the other stuff. [16:28] Accountability Chart: Visionary, integrator, leader, doer, and other roles and responsibilities depend on strengths and weaknesses. Overlap occurs until roles are filled by others. [22:43] EZ Repair Hotline establishes values: What are we doing now? What are we aspiring toward? [25:28] Do they share my values? If the answer is "no," they have to go. They're team members hurting your business, momentum, and results. [26:18] Two Different Businesses: Do you want a business that you can have vs. a business that you want and love? [30:08] Change people's mindset to move beyond minimum standards by motivating those who want to step up and make things happen. [37:42] Process Piece: One of the six components of Traction by documenting processes to improve them and help others reach goals. [40:03] Planning System Solves Internal Problems: One of three things must be missing—accountability, transparency, or clarity on outcomes. [43:19] Property Managers: A structure helps you avoid working 80 hours a week; figure out how to handle work without having to be available all the time. Tweetables Every business needs an operating system. EOS: What are you going to do with your business in the next 90 days? EOS makes things doable, not overwhelming when growing a business. When businesses predict and create the future through planning, that's magic! Resources EZ Repair Hotline DGS 15: EZ Repair Hotline with Andy Shinn Traction by Gino Wickman Wake Up Warrior 90 Day Year Rockefeller Habits EMyth Clockwork Checklist Manifesto Profit First DiSC DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: All right, and we are live. Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, I am hanging out with Andy. Andy, welcome to the show. This is Andy Shinn of EZ Repair Hotline. Andy, you've been on the show before. Welcome back. Andy: Great. Thanks for having me back. It's good to be here. Jason: [...] and you've made a lot of changes since then and grown. I would imagine quite a bit. I've seen you at several conferences that we've both been vendors at. Tell us what's been going on with EZ Repair Hotline. Andy: Last time we talked we were pretty much brand new. We were maybe a couple years in, but we really hadn't had much momentum, and we were just getting started in the industry. We've grown a lot over the last couple of years. We've learned a lot in terms of process. I hope to talk to you about some of that today and some of what we're doing. It's been an exciting couple of years. I think this is an industry, maintenance coordination, that's just taking off in the property management space. A lot of property managers don't even maybe know this is available or some haven't tried it yet. It's definitely a wide open industry and we're excited to work with a lot of property management companies who I think are seeing value with what we do. Jason: Great. Well, let's get into it. Where should we start? Today's topic is implementing EOS, Traction, and process improvement at EZ Repair Hotline. Let's get into it. Where do we start? Andy: I guess, maybe just a little bit of history. Over the last year, we have really been working on defining a process and what our product needs to look like. Before that year, we were very customizable. As a property manager, you come in and you'd inform the process as much as we did and I think that was causing us issues, inconsistency in performance. About a year ago, we said, "We got to define a process that's best in class, that's world-class, that we can run for the property manager. They're not just buying us like a virtual assistant, they're buying our whole process. They're getting that whole package of what we do." That was really important for us over the last year and we've made some strides in that direction. Not exactly to the end of where we want to be, but we're moving in that direction. Anyway, about January or so, I'd heard about Traction probably on the DoorGrow site. A lot of property managers are implementing Traction. I decided to read it but I did an audio book which I do sometimes. I read about a business book a week. Usually, I read them but for whatever reason I did this on audio. It just didn't catch with me, so I just went on and I kept doing my thing but then I was hearing more and more about Traction. I decided to go to Barnes & Noble and pick up the physical book and see if that made a difference, and it did. It's a kind of book you need to sit down, open up with a notepad, and really use it almost like a workbook. I knew a few chapters into it that it was going to be that was going to be really exciting for EZ Repair because it creates a really structured operating model which is what we needed. There's a lot of different books that'll help you do that but I think Traction for a small–medium-sized business is the perfect way to do it. Certainly is the perfect fit for us. We're only a couple months into that Traction piece, coming off, like I said, where we started a year ago, but Traction's taking us to that next level. It's really exciting. Jason: Cool. I believe every business needs an operating system. There's different systems that every business needs. Initially, the entrepreneur is every system when you're first starting out, but there needs to be a planning system which is what we're talking about. There needs to be a support system for most business. If you have customers that needs to be supported, there needs to be a support system in place. There needs to be a phone system for most business so there's phone communication. I think there's five or six, maybe seven different systems that every business needs and one of the key systems is a planning system. In most business planning systems I've studied, the Traction and EOS stuff, scaling up—I've worked with Allen Scharfen who's a brilliant operations mind—there's a lot of different planning systems out there. One common thread that seems to be through all of them is annual planning, having quarterly goals, being broken down into quarterly and then having goals broken down into 30 days, and then maybe even something broken down into weekly commitments that the team are working on. We don't use EOS. In our business, I use a different system but it's similar to what you might find in other systems, which I think all good business planning systems incorporate at least those basic elements. Andy: It does and you mentioned taking the goals, like the quarterly goals. What EOS really tries to do is take your business into 90-day chunks. You're really running a 90-day cycle of, "What am I going to do with the business in the next 90 days?" You're setting longer term goals like, "Here's what's out here that I need to be able to hit. Here's my stretch goal, my 5- or 10-year goal of what this company's really going to be like." Then, what it does is it takes it down to just 90-day blocks where you're setting targets that the enterprise owns but then individuals on the leadership team own. Here's what I own for the next 90-days, what they call rocks. At the end of that 90 days, you've taken your business that next step and now, you plan out your next 90 days. It really helps businesses put things in a very doable context because it can get overwhelming, as an entrepreneur, when you've got a lot of stuff going on, especially in a growing business—this industry is really growing—and to be able to say, "Here's what's going to happen in the next 90 days. Here's what we have to do in the next 90 days. Here's the goal for the next 90 days." That's a very easy way to take the business forward, rather than thinking, "Where are we going to be three years from now," and trying to plan off of that. That's fully difficult. EOS for our business has been fantastic and in just about 90 days in, in taking the business into those 90-day chunks. I have a feeling, for property managers, they'd see the same kind of value. When I was a property manager, I would have seen a lot of value in this. Like you mentioned, there's other systems, too, but being able to select a system like this is really important for companies to be successful. Jason: I think most businesses have no planning system. They're just winging it. The entrepreneur's winging it. When you do implement a really sub-planning system, then what happens is you become able to predict the future. You're creating the future in the present and eventually, it's happening and that's magic. That's magic for businesses to be able to predict and create the future. Most entrepreneurs come up with these big goals, big dreams, and these endless to-do lists. If you look back at all those things—we've all been there as entrepreneurs—very few of them ever end up coming to fruition, very few end up getting done. We always bite off more than we can chew. We overestimate our ability to get things done. We get distracted because we take on too many different goals and too many different things. What I've noticed in having a planning system in the business is it forces me to limit the things I focus on. I've been doing this for several years, not just 90 days. I've been doing this for years and it forces me to limit the pressure that I put on my team as well because a lot of time, as entrepreneurs, we get really pumped up and excited, right? We go to an event, conference, something. We come back to our team and we're like, "We're going to do all this stuff. I just got all these great ideas." And then we get super excited, we throw out some big goal where we heard some coach or somebody say, "Write a number down that you want to make. Add a zero to it. Add another zero. Go big." You hear these old phrases like, "It's better to aim for the stars and miss than a pile of manure and hit." Entrepreneurs love that. They're like, "Yes, the stars." We get so pumped up and excited, then we walked out of the room and we think, "Man, my team must be pumped up." What they see is a grenade sitting in the middle of the floor with the pin pulled. That's their perception. They're like, "What are we going to do with this? How are we going to that? My life's already hard. Doesn't he know how hard I'm already working?" They look at us like we're kind of crazy. I think the biggest thing I've noticed with planning is that it allows us to get buy in from our team because ultimately, I can't do it all on my own. I just don't have that capacity. You don't as well. You cannot do everything in your business. You cannot answer every phone call at EZ Repair Hotline personally. We really rely on our team and if we don't get their buy-in, if there isn't adoption into any system, or into any goal, or any outcome that we have, then we end up trying to control people. Controlling as an entrepreneur is not a very comfortable place for us to be, to be controlling our team instead of inspiring them. Andy: That's a great point, though, because entrepreneurs have different personalities. It is a different mindset. Most people, they want more structure. You and I are probably really comfortable just working without structure and getting things done. Jason: I can totally live in chaos. I can totally do it because to me, it's giving me new ideas, I have to adapt, I'm exploring. That's fun and exciting for me. I've had team members quit because of that, because it makes them feel really uncomfortable and unsafe because most people [...] crazy, you have to be smart, maybe a C on the DISC profile. They want stability, they want things to be okay, they want a job where everything stays similar each day. I would probably get really bored in a situation like that. It wraps some constraints around my crazy. An upside of constraints is that it forces innovation. It allows my team also to innovate because they have an outcome. I don't care how they get there, as long as they live within our value system, but I don't care what specific actions they take to do it or to get there and they can create, innovate, and come up with ideas that I never would have thought of. Andy: That's exactly right. You're training structure for your team so they know what to do, what to expect, and what the goals are. Goals that they can imagine because I can imagine a five-year goal but my typical employee is not imagining a five-year goal. They want to know, "What are we doing this year? What are we doing the next three months?" It gives them something very tangible to hold on to. "What do we need to accomplish in these next three months?" At the same time, the whole operating system relies on employees and leadership at all levels to be able to bring ideas to the table, bring process improvements to the table, and to do things to try and achieve those goals. How are we going to get there? Well, we're not going to get there by just running the show. We're going to get there because we've set these 90-day targets, what specific activities do we need to do or what do we need to change to get to these targets? It creates structure but at the same time, almost counterintuitively, it does create that innovation from employees thinking about, "How do we hit these targets?" I think it's very effective. I think the cool thing, too, about Traction that I like, it creates what they call a visionary role. That allows for somebody like me to still have a place in the operating model. I'm not just trying to fit into this operating model and be more structured. It allows a place for the entrepreneur to be that visionary, to be that person who's got the ideas, and maybe he's got the crazy goals but it tells you, "Here's how you operate within that model as that person." That's been a personal help for me as well. Jason: I've been really outspoken online. I don't know if you've seen some of my posts but I've been really outspoken online somewhat against Traction and EOS. I do see the value and important pieces of it but I also think there's a couple of fundamental flaws. Everybody I've talked to that does EOS, they don't do everything. I think that's the benefit of taking a system is you can take the things that really work well for you and leave out the other stuff. Ultimately, if we're really honest, EOS was built as a system to create a really nice business for the people that created EOS. You have to go hire integrators from them, you need the integrator, and the integrator is the magical, golden key to the whole puzzle. They take on this glorified role that replaces a COO or operations manager. They take on the executive assistant role which is a critical role for an entrepreneur. They squeeze all of that as this layer in between in their accountability chart, which is an org chart, between the visionary, which is the entrepreneur, and the entire team. Which in reality would be probably the most dangerous thing to ever do with your company, ever, to give somebody that much power and control because they don't even need you anymore. They can just chop that top piece off and the whole org chart works fine without you. What that means, they can charge whatever they freaking want. They'll come back to you after a year, after they know and run everything in the business, and everybody's loyal to them and say, "I want $500,000 a year. I want a percentage of the company." What are you going to do? Replace them? I think, ultimately, the best way to foundationally build every business is around the entrepreneur because we're not all the quintessential or perfect visionary. I've noticed in property management, there's different roles. I've noticed there are some property management business owners, some entrepreneurs are more accountants. They're more accounting-minded, they're more on the financial side, they're more doing things by the book. You got some that are more relationship-oriented. They're more about people, relationships, they love. Some are more sales-oriented. Some may be should keep and retain some of the property manager type of role. Some may be should be the sales or BDM person in the business. That might be the last thing they give up. Some may be the operations person and doing systems and coordinating things. Ultimately, the great thing about having a business is instead of building it to somebody else's system, we can build it around ourselves and make ourselves feel like Ironman with our supersuit. We can have the business that makes us feel amazing, supported, and fulfilled that we love doing everyday. Ultimately, that's the one fundamental, foundational piece that I would change in that system to build around it. I think everything would extend out from that. Andy: That makes total sense. I'll tell you how we're doing for the accountability chart. Jason: Yeah, I wonder how you're using it. Andy: First of all, we're self-implementing so there's nobody else in the picture but it's working out well for us. Maybe this is probably just advantageous to us. It just so happens to be that I'm in this business with Michael, my stepson. He is the perfect integrator. He's the perfect operations. Jason: He's an operations guy. Andy: Exactly, that's what he does. I've done those things but I'm not as good at that as he is. I'm more of the visionary. We've taken ourselves and each of us has taken that role. So, I'm the visionary, he's the integrator. There's still a lot of overlap so it's maybe not as clean as what it would look like at the end of that accountability chart. It's not like there's one person reporting to the visionary. That's the only contact the visionary has as you might look at it visually. Jason: This isn't as it perfectly claims. Andy: No, exactly. We're growing and in our current size, I'm actually filling a couple of the boxes that would be on the next level down like some of the financial and the CFO type roles. I'm filling that as well. I'm filling a couple of the boxes. That's how we're using the accountability charts, to make sure that somebody's in each of those boxes. Even if that's Michael or me overlapping. As part of the process, we also added a couple of folks to our leadership team. We had one operations lead. We brought that up to three to give them very specific responsibilities within the organization. When you look at our accountability chart, you will see that visionary and integrator but it's not quite what you described. It's a lot different. Then next level down, we've got our operations leads and then you've got me on a couple of the boxes at that next level down, filling those roles until we're large enough to fill those roles with other folks. That's how we're using that chart. I think the risk that you brought out are very real but I think for us, and maybe it is a little unique with me and Michael being in a partnership in the business, those roles actually worked out really well for us. Jason: Yeah. I think every visionary entrepreneur does need an operationally-minded person. They're just the yin to the yang. They're the opposite that we need to wrap some constraints and some managerial prowess towards what we as visionaries would not be good at. We need that person and that role in the business, so it makes a lot of sense. I think ultimately, another key takeaway for the listeners is that it is important to have an org chart. There's a lot of people saying, "Do away with org charts," or they're saying that no org chart that has to exist and you need to build towards it. I don't believe there's an ideal org chart or an ideal situation but I do believe that it is important to have clear levels of responsibility to understand who reports to who. You can't serve two masters. You can't have somebody reporting to two people, everybody will be confused as to who their supervisor is and who they report to, and have a company that runs well. It just doesn't tend to happen in reality. Even if you don't create it, it starts to exist organically. People have people they trust as an authority, people that they go to, and to make it actually clear and say, "This is how it is," makes everyone feel more at ease, makes it a lot more comfortable, and then attaching to that, their roles. What is their job description? I think that's where it gets really specific is everytime we add a new team member, our role changes if they are doing anything that impacts us in any way. Most of our initial hires impact us directly. Any executive team members, any assistants, they're taking something off our plate. Our job description changes, so we need to update that. Their job description changes everytime we bring on somebody else that works with them on that team. Businesses are a fluid thing. Everytime you hire somebody, and if you're growing and scaling, these are always happening. That top level team is going to be in flux, initially, until that's somewhat stable. Then the lower levels are going to have that flux and that change, all those variations, and their job descriptions need to be updated and tight. Over time, what I've noticed also is every single team member, as the company grows in scales, starts to do less, not more if it's being done well. Because as the company scales and grows, my job description gets narrower. Like my head of fulfillment, his job description gets narrower. He used to be doing all the content, content gathering, client communication, and everything. His job gets narrower and narrower as we slice pieces off and give them to new people so that he has leverage. That's how that pyramid grows and scales, is everyone slicing pieces off and doing less and less, but they get better at it and they're able to focus more on what they really enjoy if you're doing it right. Then, they're even better at it and more excited. Over time, they get better and improve. A lot of people think you just pop somebody into a role if you got the processes documented. But I think there's something to be said about long-term employees and keeping people as long as you possibly can. I don't think you can beat that in a business. Andy: Absolutely. I'll tell you though, as you're growing, what you just said is exactly why you want to have an operating system in place as you're growing. It's because you do have those changing roles. If you don't have that built, you said something like it's going to happen anyway, it is. It's going to happen by itself but it's not going to happen the way you want it to and that's true. If the processes is through the job roles, is through the culture in your organization, all of that stuff is happening. The only question is, are you directing it? We've really been trying to direct it over the years and finally, with Traction, we've found a way that we've said, "This really organizes what we're trying to do and it's been very helpful." I'll talk a little bit about our values, if I can, which is one piece of Traction that we had a head start on. We were already working on our values. We had set up an initial set of values a few years ago when we started the company. They were just me and Michael, put them together. They were just about having fun in the workplace. That sort of thing. I'd say they were lightweight values. They didn't have a lot of meaning behind them and since we just put them together. The employees that had come on since didn't have any stake in them, so to speak. Last year, last December, we brought in a team of three employees and we had them work as a committee to put together our values as an organization. We wanted them to focus on two things: (1) What are we doing now? Because we felt like we had a pretty healthy culture, and (2) What are we aspiring towards? What are we aspiring our culture to look like? Those three went out and talked to all of our existing employees. Over the course of several months, ended up putting together our values which fit in perfectly, timing-wise, with Traction because we had that in place at the same time we're implementing Traction. That's so important for any company to do. Even if you're a small company, put together those values because now we're able to look at how we deal with customers, how we interact with employees, how we do our job, how we set up processes. We can look at all of those and the context of our values. Is this consistent with what we're trying to be as an organization, with the culture we're trying to put together? So, that's been really helpful. That's a part of Traction we were sure to working on. You can do it without doing Traction, but it's a big part of what Traction brings to the table as well. So, very important. Jason: Touching on values, I think it's important to have values in the business because without those, you can't even have team members that believe what you believe, which I think is the most foundational thing in building a team. If you don't have believers, then you have people that are just there to get paid. If they're just there to get paid, they're going to be B players. They're not going to care about quality the way that you do. They're not going to care about the results. They just care about getting the paycheck. I think it's a very dangerous thing to not really ensure that you have values set and that your team members are aware of what those are. I think it's very easy once you get clarity on your own values as a company. This is one of the exercises I take clients through when we take them on, is to get clear on their values. But if you don't have clarity in your values, then it's impossible to have a company that displays them. It just won't happen. Once you get that clarity, it's very easy to look at every single team member and just ask a very simple question, "Do they share my values?" It becomes really obvious, it's a yes or no, you know. If you know these team members at all, you know. Do they value integrity? Do they value being on time or whatever it may be that you care about as an entrepreneur? And if the answer is a no, they have to go because they're hurting your business, they're hurting your momentum, and they're hurting your results in the business. I know when I got clear of some of my values as an organization, what my purpose was as a human being and my purpose for my businesses, over a very short period of time, I think I fired half of my team. I just let them go. I let go of contractors. I brought in new people and the entire temperature of the company leveled up because I think what we do as entrepreneurs is we often trade the business we really deep down want for the business we can have. We have this business. We take on the properties we can, anything we can. We go out to far areas and manage properties too far where we can. We take on team members that can fill a role instead of what we really want. We're doing the business that can be used instead of the business that we should or the business that we deserve. That's a huge difference. Having a business that you can have versus a business that you really love are two completely different businesses. Most businesses, especially when they get into the 200–400 door category, a lot of them at that stage had built a team, a system, and everything around them, I've noticed that is still with the old mindset that they had as a solopreneur and it's painful. This is probably the most painful stage I've seen for entrepreneurs in the property management industry, is that 200–400 door category. Fifty–sixty door category can be quite painful, too, but they're usually solopreneurs at that point, so the pain isn't as widespread. Andy: That's right. The thing about this too, Jason, whether you're talking about Traction, E Myth, Clockwork, or other books that'll talk to you about, how do you pull yourself out of the business all the time? Because when you're an entrepreneur and you're growing, if you don't have a structure for how that growth is going to happen and what's your business model needs to look like, you're going to drive yourself crazy. You're going to be working 90 hours a week and you're going to be on-call 24/7. You're going to be answering the phones all the time. That's just part of what a lot of entrepreneurs do as they grow. If you get a system like Traction, I think that helps you pull yourself away, be the real leader of the company and not the doer of everything within the company. I think Traction's a good way to do that. For me, I've been able to create this role that I think is comfortable for me, that's not overwhelming, that it's something that I can do, it's the kinds of things I like to do, and at the same time, Michael's got something he likes to do in our operations leads. They're in roles, they're very comfortable, and they like to do that. I think you take that all the way down your organization and if you structure that, you give everybody a piece that they're good at, that they can do, they have the ability to do, and that they want to do, that's going to make them very effective. That's a lot about what Traction and other operating systems are really about. The other thing, though, I wanted to touch on something you said a little bit about we can set minimum standards for people who work for us. A lot of people get into that mindset of, "Oh, well you've got to hit this minimum. If you're not hitting it, you're in trouble. You got to hit this minimum." No matter what happens is people hit that minimum. But what you don't understand is that you're losing an extraordinary amount of discretionary effort that you could have had from that employee if they were on board with your values, if they understood the goals. They were buying to those goals, and they wanted to reach them. Now, their performance isn't the minimum. Their performance is up here. They're not even worried about managing the minimum because everybody's onboard with their culture, everybody's onboard with their goals. Nobody's around here. It's just a matter of how much discretionary effort they're providing. I worked in call centers for a large organization before I became a property manager, before I started EZ Repair. Call centers are the worst at this because it's about setting up these metrics around handle times or compliance. Jason: [...] tickets, check time between how long it takes to write notes, everything. Andy: When you took your break, you're supposed to take a 7-14 but you took a 7-17, so you're only 98% compliant. All this stuff, all you're doing is managing somebody that hit a minimum standard. That's what you're going to get. When I came into some centers, we were able to change their whole mindset, saying, "Yeah. We've got to measure on the outside of those things, but what we really need to do is to motivate our team towards a common goal." We were able to improve service levels immediately at a very large contact center, immediately. That contact center, people thought it was understaffed, that we weren't answering the phone quick enough, going and almost immediately just by setting targets, getting away from this minimum standards, changing people's mindset, and getting people to step up. People will give you discretionary effort if they're buying the way you're doing it. They're onboard with it. As a small business owner, I think a lot of us missed that. We do get into the, "Okay, we've got to hit these standards," or, "It's busy. We're not getting everything done. We've got to up our standard to how many X number of widgets we're going to make or whatever our performance metrics is," and that's fine. You have to have goals and standards. What we really need to do is to motivate people who want to step up, add a little work, and be a part of your company because they buy into your company. They decided to get up on Monday and go to work because they like what they're doing. They like what they're trying to accomplish. That's a big part of this. Traction help us do this. I think there's a lot of other ways you can implement those types of things. Traction gives you a way to show each employee on a 90-day basis, something that is very relatable to everybody, "Here's what we're trying to accomplish over 90 days. Can you help us do that?" To a person, our teams told me in small meetings with everybody on our teams, "Yeah, we can do that. We will do that. We'll step up if we have to. We'll do that and we'll make that happen." I think you'd be surprised how people will respond to you when you can bring them a real visual, structured, account of what we're trying to do with the company, and get it out of the framework that we're talking about earlier where it's in my head, that I know what I want my company to do, and I got this pie in the sky. Jason: Which [...] everyday. Andy: Exactly. It didn't help anybody because it does seem a little scattered, it does change sometimes, and nobody can really related to these ideas I've got in my head about where business is going. Traction brings it to a level where everybody in the organization can understand the buy-in and get excited about it. They can also put the pieces together. They can see in our five year goal, "Okay. This is what we need to do in this next 90 day chunk. If we do this and we keep doing our 90 day chunk, we're going to hit that five year target." Even though it seems like it's way out there, we're going to hit that, and we're going to hit it 90 days at a time. If I were looking at Traction and say, "What's the biggest single thing we've got out of this?" there's a lot of things in there. It's the ability to chunk that business in 90 days, and have a very good and very solid structure. Jason: Yeah, and really any business planning system, that is one of the most basic things. I've done Wake Up Warrior, there's a 90 day year which is a system out there that's scaling up, the Rockefeller Habits, that system. There's EOS, Traction. All of these things. My [...], internally we call DoorGrow OS. It's our Operating System. I've taken what I feel like is the best of all the systems out there. It may, in the future—I don't want to be the vaporware guy—be the system that we share with property managers. I do have an intention to help create the ultimate system out there, but I think what you're saying is very valid. I don't know if you know this, you and I have a little bit of a similar background. I don't have the scale that you had at AAA, but I was the head. I did all the hiring, I was the lead supervisor and head of a call center for the largest private broadband internet service provider in California. Then, I left there as a big fish in a small pond to work at Verizon in their Business and Tech Support Center for DSL and was the low guy on the totem pole, but I got paid a lot more when I went there. I've been in the call center environment. I've been the supervisor doing the hiring. I've taken the supervisor calls as well. I've done all the low level work. The funny thing I noticed is when you have a system and you geared it towards those metrics, people figure out how to game the system. I figured out how to manipulate the system because it was all about speed in getting things done faster. I used a piece of software that could do macros that would prepopulate tickets. I noticed we're only getting about three types of tickets. We had to fill up this horrible piece of software in Verizon that was detailing everything that we did, what we said, and how to be done. They really made four types of problems so I created this macroscript thing. It would just prepopulate the tickets. I have my tickets done and I was back on a call right away. I got really good at closing out tickets legitimately, so that we were helping people. I then started sharing with other people that were struggling. If you're not making your metrics, you get nervous. They're afraid that you're going to get axed. Here's the funny thing. Supervisors don't like [...] people messing with the system or doing things differently, especially if it wasn't their idea. I had supervisors that wanted to challenge that or felt threatened by the fact that I optimized and make things better. As entrepreneurs, this is what we do. We're always looking for ways to support our team or looking for ways to improve speed, improve accuracy, help them be better. If we give our team members that ability to feel entrepreneurial which is where instead of micromanaging them, we give them our values, we give them our outcomes. We give them outcomes to work towards and we let them see what they could do. I've been really amazed when we've gone into planning sessions with my team. I say, "Here's the things that I want, what [...] you have to help us get there." My graphic designer has a completely different view and perspective from her angle of the business than I have from my top down. My head of fulfillment and the content person has a completely different view and perspective from that side than I do from the top down. Their ideas are great. I'm always amazed. We have all these brainstormed ideas. I'm like, "Yes. I didn't even think of that." I think we also as entrepreneurs, we become the emperor with no clothes if we don't have a planning system because they're all just saying, "Yes," and they're just getting their paychecks, they're just doing what they're told. They're not innovating, they're not feeling alive, and they're not really enjoying being part of that organization. You're the boss that everyone is complaining about. On the weekend, they just leave for the weekend. What you said earlier about discretionary time, I want team members that even on the weekends, they're thinking about how they could be better. They're thinking about the job. They're excited about what they're doing. They're studying and learning new stuff because they're excited about what they get to do in the business and they feel passionate about being able to be part of something bigger. They like that feeling and camaraderie of being on a team, and having a culture. It's a very different thing. Andy: I'll tell you a quick story along those lines. We're doing a lot of the process piece. One of the six components of Traction, one of those is process. We've been spending a lot of time on that. I mentioned a year ago, we want to really formalize our process where it's consistent the same way every time for every company. You can customize things like that. Your [...] criteria can be customized, but you couldn't customize when we follow up with the tenant after repair. We're not going to do the same for everybody. There's things in our process where we don't do the same. When we started Traction, we're also used to email then The Checklist Manifesto was a great book, as well. We talked about how we are going to document our processes in a way that our team has all the support that they need for the process. We did that. We put some really cool documentation for our seven key processes all in checklist style but visual checklist. You don't have to fill anything up. Any team member, even new team members can immediately walk into a process and these steps to do for that, for example. When we roll that out, almost immediately, one of the team members who does most of the work on one of our frontend processes—part of the dispatch processes—that was able to come in and say, "Look, I've been doing this process. It's working fine. If we did this, we've been quicker. We can get to these work-overs dispatch even quicker." We made these small changes. Because we had a checklist listed down, he can even see what's the next stage in the process and what are they doing. He was able to put that altogether and say, "Here's the fix. Here's something that we can improve." We implemented it the same day. It definitely drives people to be more engaged in the operations. They're not just there to do your ABC work that you asked them to do. They're vying into the goals they were trying to accomplish. They're vying into the process you're rolling out. They're trying to be a part of that. We've seen a lot of that. A lot of folks at the very frontline and in this particular case. This is an employee that has only been enlisted for a couple of months. People feeling really comfortable to be able to help us towards these goals. Now that they understand what we're trying to do and that really put an understandable 90-day blocks. Here's what we're trying to do and everybody's going to be more likely to be onboard, jump up, and say, "Hey, let's do this differently because that's going to improve our operation." Jason: Yeah. If you look at any problem internally in a business, there's one of three things that must be missing. Either there isn't a clear outcome, which a planning system help solve, there isn't accountability, it wasn't clear who was supposed to be doing it or who was responsible for the outcome, and there isn't transparency. Nobody can see who's doing what or see that people are or are not getting things done. Nobody has clarity on where the business is at financially or how it's working. I think having a planning system, having regular meetings, it creates this culture that allows accountability, allows transparency, allows responsibility, allows to be a clear drive towards outcomes. Most businesses have no clear outcome. They're not working towards a clear outcome. They're just managing day to day fires and they're just shooting in the dark. That's how most small businesses operate. It financially looks that way in their business, too. There is a consistency in the financial side as well. Also, it's a financial system which is a part of planning. I'll just throw that out there which I'm a big fan of Profit First. Andy: First of all, big plug to Profit First. Big plug to Profit First. It changed my business two years ago. Absolutely a big fan of Profit First and in Clockwork thesis. He's written several great books for profit entrepreneurs. For me, you were talking about how most small business owners don't do these things. I was in that same boat. Even though I come from a very structured environment from AAA, when I was a property manager, that's all I [...] property management company. I joked but it's not really a joke. I didn't make any money in my property management company until I sold it. That was the company I ran. When we started EZ Repair, we sort of forgot to do this a little differently. We started getting into the systems and reading different books about structuring, about how to have an operating model, how to profitability. It wasn't really until, like I said, two years ago, we were at Profit First. That just transformed our finances completely. It's was amazing. And then here, I feel like Traction for us is going to be the next turning point, but a couple of years from now, I'll be talking about how we found Traction a couple of years ago. I think it's an evolution of a small business. You learn different things as you go. But for any small business owner, even if you're just starting up, whether it's Traction or another system, you need to have an operating system in place. This would've been so much easier for us a couple of years ago if we did implement it, but that's okay. We're implementing it now and it's never too early. I don't care how small you are. Maybe you don't have employees yet but you plan on growing. Get it in place. Jason: Yeah. For those listening, what do you want them to take away from this? Andy: Hopefully, some learnings from me. What I just said from my own property management experience when I was a property manager. Hopefully, you can make some money before you decide to sell your [...] business. Hopefully, you can make money along the way. There's a lot of property managers who are. The ones who are have that structure. They have that operating system. They have that financial plan in place. What I'm advocating for is to do that as a property manager. Implement, whether it's Traction or another operating system. Implement it. Definitely read Profit First. It will change your life, absolutely. Do that going forward. Even if you're small, even if you don't think you're there yet, even if you think, "Well, I'm just a one person show," or whatever, one or two person show, it doesn't matter. The structure is going to help you so much and it's going to keep you from working those 80 hours a week. I know there are PMs out there working 80 hours weeks because that was what I was doing when I was a PM. You don't need to. Even if you're not ready to hire right now, these operating systems are going to help you structure in a way that you won't be working 80 hour weeks anymore. They'll figure out how to handle the work without actually having to just be available all the time. Hopefully, you'll determine too that there's some self-showing work that you can do, maybe some maintenance work coordination, work duty. You can do some other things. You can outsource, but you're definitely even without doing any of that, just by structuring your work and system like Traction, you're going to find your job becomes easier or manageable, and you're going to understand exactly what you need to be doing in the business everyday. Jason: One thing I want everybody to take away from this, too, is that this is rare in businesses in the US or everywhere, really. This is rare that a business will implement a planning system, implement profit first, have these pieces in place. I think every listener should feel a lot safer with using a company if they hear that they have these pieces in place. Andy, props to you for getting these pieces in place over EZ Repair Hotline. I'm sure those listening will feel a lot safer with using these services if they haven't considered these before. It creates more consistency in the outcomes of the business. It creates more reliability. Really, that's what people are vying from all of us—safety and uncertainty. That's what they want. They want results. It's far easier to deliver results when you have a predictable system to create that magic and to create a future. Andy, I appreciate you coming on the show. How can they check you out? Andy: Thanks for having me. Our website is probably the best way to start to take a look at us. It's ezrepairhotlinellc.com. They can see all our products and the easy way to set up a meeting with me or just to send us a note in the contact form. I'd love to have people follow up with us. Jason: Perfect. I appreciate you, Andy, coming on the show. Hopefully, you have an awesome rest of your day. Andy: Thanks, Jason. That was great. I appreciate it. Jason: You can check them out. It is ezrepairhotlinellc.com, so check them out. If you are a property management entrepreneur, you're feeling stressed out, you're feeling overwhelmed, you're not getting the results that you want, you don't feel like you have consistency, you feel like things are crazy, you feel like you're on a financial rollercoaster, you may just need to start with getting clarity on yourself. This is where I start clients out when we start working with them, when we start coaching and consulting property management business. We start them with figuring themselves out first. Andy is the center of the solar system. I'm the center of my business. If you change and help them get clarity on what they love doing, on what they should be doing, or where their time is being drained, or where their energy is being drained, we align the business around the entrepreneur. Every business will be very different from each other. Every business will be unique. It will support you, you will feel alive, and you will feel the momentum which is what we crave as entrepreneurs. The rest of the world wants to be happy or sad. They're focused on that. We want momentum. We want to feel alive. If we don't have that, we feel unconstrained, we feel overwhelmed, we feel frustrated, we feel stressed, we feel stuck. That's hell for us as entrepreneurs. If you're stuck in a little bit of hell, maybe reach out, and we'll see if we can get you unstuck. I'm Jason Hull, from DoorGrow. Check us out at doorgrow.com. Make sure you join our Facebook community, our Facebook group. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com. If you feel like your property management website is a little bit outdated, it's older than 2-3 years, maybe it's 5 years old or older, it might be time to test that website, see how much money is really leaking and costing you. You can go to doorgrow.com/quiz and take our website quiz. Most websites that go through it get an F grade in terms of conversion which means you are losing deals and money right now. It's probably costing you tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars, annually, in lost deals and lost business. So, check that out. Again, I'm Jason Hull with the DoorGrow Show. I appreciate you guys tuning in. Be sure to check us out on iTunes or on YouTube. Like and subscribe. Where it's possible, leave us a testimonial or review. We'll really appreciate that. That is it. I am out. Bye, everyone. To our mutual growth. Until next time.

Everybody needs and deserves a place to live that is clean, maintained, and safe. Better yet, It makes perfect sense to get someone else to pay your mortgage by giving them a great space at a great rate and share some resources. Today, I am talking to Lisa Wise, co-founder of Nest DC, which manages residential units throughout Washington, DC. The company is committed to customer service, quality spaces, and excellent living experiences. You'll Learn... [02:23] Nest continues to experience exceptional growth and measures success by revenue and number of jobs it's created. [02:34] Fun Spaces: Fixing an Adobe duplex where nothing's square and everything's made of dirt led Lisa to love her accidental landlord role in property management. [04:09] Non-profit Dedication: Do what you can for the community, in terms of what you want to do professionally, due to ability to manage and maintain properties. [05:04] Origin of Nest DC: Grow one property at a time, and focus on service forward to take care of tenants, spaces, and places. [05:56] Property managers can make a meaningful impact by helping people and families preserve a better quality of life in their homes. [11:00] Bad Strategies for Building Relationships: Ignoring problems, letting things fall into disrepair, not paying expenses for repairing things—none of those are good.. [11:23] Property Manager Opportunities: Daily variety, unique challenges, freedom, and direct impact. [13:32] Cycle of Suck: Bad managers control costs and fail to maintain property; if people are unhappy with where they're living, they're less likely to be great tenants. [19:20] Onboarding Process: Set expectations on maintenance costs and educate them on why they need to maintain the property at the highest level to take care of tenants. [21:28] Ways to strategically grow through painful stages: Evaluate technology, be nimble, and cherish staff. Tweetables Grow one property at a time, and focus on service forward to take care of tenants, spaces, and places. It's truly an act of trust and intimacy to be invited to manage someone's home and personal space. Property managers can make a meaningful and powerful impact by helping people. If people are happy where they live, then they're just better neighbors. Resources Nest DC AppFolio National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) Shark Tank Upwork Fiverr DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. We're here with Lisa Wise of Nest DC in Washington, DC. Lisa, welcome to the show. Lisa: Thanks for having me. Jason: Glad to have you hear. Lisa, I'm going to read a little bit of your bio. It says that you're the co-founder of two companies—both anchored in the real estate management company, both entirely unique in their contribution to the housing landscape. Nest DC was co-founded by Lisa Wise and Jim Pollack at the start of the "Great Recession" in 2009. Nest manages residential units throughout Washington, DC with a commitment to customer service and an emphasis on quality spaces and excellent living experiences. From 2011-2015, Nest DC was voted a top property management company in the Washington City Paper's "Best of DC" issue. In August 2016, Nest placed in the Inc 5000 list of America's fastest-growing companies. That is a reflection of an investment in the workplace. In 2013, Nest DC was named a "Small Business Gem" in Washingtonian Magazine's "Top 50 Places to Work" issue. Year over year, Nest enjoys exceptional growth, measuring success not just in revenue, but in the number of good jobs that have been created since inception. I'll stop there, but why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you go into property management? Lisa: I lived in Tucson, Arizona. I was going to graduate school there and had an 1893 Adobe duplex which was one of the coolest spaces I've ever lived in. I got a nice degree in Political Economy and enjoyed a long background doing political consulting basically, but I liked working with my hands and having an Adobe duplex is the best place in the world to get comfortable working with your hands because nothing's square and everything's made of dirt. There was no stem wall and it was actually pretty easy having […]. I liked the idea of being able to do a thing and then turn around and having adding proof to the space. I had worked on the plumbing to patching the roof to doing paint. I feel like I've painted, many, many, many square miles at this point. It was something that I think came really naturally to me and I enjoyed that process and working with my hands. I had grown up in an environment where working with your hands is definitely something that was what you did. The great thing about that duplex when I asked my landlord if I could buy it and he said yes was it was a duplex. I automatically became a landlord and I loved that. It made perfect sense to have someone else pay my mortgage. It made perfect sense to give someone a great space at a great rate and share some resources including a backyard, dog care, and all those kinds of things. I fell into being, I think what you might consider an accidental landlord, but really loved it. I have had an instinct that I would love it but I had always had this non-profit draw to do what I can for the community so there's a little bit of tension and conflict there in terms of what I want to do professionally. If we fast forward many years, and we did bump up against that recession and I was in the non-profit environment, doing a lot of fundraising and felt like I wasn't changing the world very quickly with my non-profit work. I was actually really ready to do a thing and get paid for it. At that point, I had a few more rentals that I had acquired over time and still really enjoyed that work. It was really originated as a side hustle. It was a great way of bringing in that extra revenue. I was good at managing and maintaining those spaces. I kept telling people, "You should start property management company. I think it'd be a really great business model." Until one day I thought, "Maybe I should do that. It seems to be something I have an aptitude for, and interest, and enthusiasm, and a passion for." Around 2009, we decided to launch Nest and the idea was just to grow one property at a time, very organic, focus on being very service forward and taking great care of tenants, spaces, and places. It worked, especially in DC where service doesn't always tend to be stellar and where a lot of the management companies were high volume and not really building relationships one tenant at a time or one owner at a time. We came up with a really refreshing approach to the business. A really refreshing approach in terms of our relationship to community. The city was clearly ready for us. That's the origin story of Nest DC. Jason: Love it. You've got sort of an activist built into you it sounds like. In property management, I wanted to touch on this, I think a lot of times we get so caught up on business, but I think property management can have a really big impact—on families, on people. Maybe you could touch on that a little bit because I get a sense that that's something you're passionate about. What impact you feel like you get to have or ripple effect you get to have as a property manager? Why is that interesting or inspiring to you? Lisa: That's a great question. It's truly an act of trust and intimacy to be invited to manage someone's home and personal space. Doing it well is really an opportunity for us to create meaningful impact in people's lives every single day. Everybody needs to live someplace. Everybody deserves a place to live that is clean, well-maintained, and safe and we get the chance to make that happen. We get the chance to be responsive and make people feel that their home base is that safe space for their family. It's been pretty intriguing to feel that I can make more impact on people's day-to-day lives in this business than I did in a lot of the healthcare and environmental work I did in my previous professional career. Because I do think that we give people a chance to have a better quality of life from them living in one of our spaces. We do get a chance to take good care of these properties. A lot of our properties are older and older as in historic. There is really a lot to be said for the fact that we're stewards of these legacy places and historical buildings, we're preserving them, and we're making sure that the landscape of our city, which is architecturally really significant, is in good repair and well-maintained. That's an important contribution we get to make as well. That's part of our whole value-space philosophy for us to be around management, but at the core, we're being invited to help people have better quality of life in their homes and that's a pretty important role to play. Jason: You've really discovered something that I think was really significant. You said that you're able to have a bigger impact by being a property manager than by the environmental work that you've done and other non-profit stuff that you've done. Lisa: Yeah. Jason: Just to explain that a little bit because I don't think people realize the impact that they can have as property managers. I think we can paint a bigger picture for the industry of that inspirational aspect. I think we would attract better property managers into the industry. I think there would be a better perception of the industry out there. I think tenants would have a better experience. I think families' lives would be better. People that are living in these different units underneath the property manager would have a better experience. The owners would be happier. I think the industry could use a little taste of this so explain that a little bit because you have experience with this. Paint a little bit of the contrast there? I think that's fascinating for me. Lisa: When you're in a non-profit environment, you're sometimes very far removed from the outcome. If you're working in healthcare policy or if you're creating new systems for people to green their procurement supply chain, you're very distant from the end user, you're very distant from there being a positive outcome and this is in high contrast to that. We're working with clients and we had a flash flood this week. We had probably 55, 60 affected buildings and units. We were able to pick up the phone every single time and help people walk through something that was very stressful for them. They're worried about their things; they're worried about mold, they're worried about their safety, they're not sure whether or not they're going to experience damages. That comes down to protecting the actual space, helping tenants and residents navigate how to deal with a threat to their belongings and their own quality of life in that day, and then owners making that someone's responsive in an emergency. That's all about building relationships, being a trusted partner, and helping people make sure that, again, their quality of life is preserved and someone's honoring that. It's every single day when you get to see the person who is that end user, recipient, or benefactor of how we do our work differently. That's not always a luxury that people get in their day-to-day work. In fact, I'd say it's probably pretty rare unless you're a provider. Let's say you're an ER doctor. Someone comes in and they're hurt, or they're scared, and you can help them. That's a pretty powerful place to be. We're in similar situations often when someone's been—maybe they had a fire in their unit, maybe they have no hot water and they've got a baby—all these things that can impact the livability of a unit that isn't just about inconvenience. It's truly about making sure that people are safe and protected in their spaces and we want to solve those problems cheerfully. We want to take care of those people and want them to feel like we're a good partner in making that that part of their life is taken care of. Ignoring problems, letting things fall into a state of disrepair, not caring about style, not caring about the building, avoiding paying for the actual expense of repairing things—none of those are good strategies to building solid relationships that help people feel that it's a good partnership. We like to emphasize partnership as one of our key strategies for doing the work well and to success. Jason: Lisa, something that I think is probably really appealing to property managers, I mentioned in the intro some of the things that I've noticed clients mentioned to me that they resonate with. They love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, freedom that property management brings. I think there's quite a few property managers or maybe most that really do love that direct impact that they get to have. As the company scale, they lose the ability as the business owner to maybe have that experience of having the direct impact, but they still get to have that ripple through their chains. How many doors does Nest manage or units does Nest manage presently? Lisa: We manage about 1000 doors. Jason: That's a lot. Lisa: Yeah, it's a lot and all in the district proper. We're very focused on managing condos and buildings that will be like associations or single-family homes. We have a lot of townhouses. It's probably a 70/30 split. Anything in the suburbs, it's easy to get around the District of Columbia. We have a high-density portfolio and we really focus on an urban landscape for our work. That's become our specialty. Jason: DC has some of the highest rent, probably in the nation, right? Lisa: Yes. Jason: Okay, we're not going to talk about fees, but I would imagine if you charge anything, you probably do alright in DC as a property manager. Lisa: Honestly, it's a good environment from that perspective but at the same time, all of our cost of living as a business… Jason: Is really high. Lisa: …so, I'm going to pay more in salaries. I'm going to pay more in occupancy. I'm going to pay more for insurance. Certainly, the cost of doing business is much higher in this environment. Jason: Got it. Why do you think it's such a challenge in some of the inner cities or the larger city markets for there to be good property managers? Is it because the costs are high for the management companies or they're just not charging enough? What's your perception because it does seem like in some markets, there are some bad manager. It gets really difficult and it's not that small-town feel, especially when you get into large multi-unit. What's your take on that? Lisa: I think if you are trying to control costs and you're unwilling to maintain the spaces at the highest possible standard and keep them in good repair and not wait until something is just broken, but you're upgrading on a schedule or you're making sure that these properties perform really well so that people are having a good experience in them. I understand that people don't want to spend a lot of cash in making sure that these units are well-maintained, but not doing so means that you're going to start renting spaces that are not comfortable, not attractive, not appealing. When people aren't happy where they're living, they're a lot less likely to be great tenants. For us, if you have a great product, you're going to attract great tenants. If you have people that you enjoy working with, you're going to have a better reputation, better relationships, and better outcomes but you have to start with a great product. For us, we're very choosy about managing spaces that we think meet particular standards for us. We're not going to be the owner's beard and make bad maintenance decisions and undercut the needs of the space because somebody wants to save money. If we have an owner that is insisting that we not keep that space in good repair, then that's not a relationship that we'll keep. That's a boundary that we've set, and we set it early. Every time we've been stressed from a business perspective and we've got to increase doors because we need to grow faster and we've compromised on those values, it's never […] out. It really works—great property attracts great tenants, when people are happy where they live, they make better neighbors, better neighbors equal better neighborhoods. It's the same formula we've had from the very beginning. When we've strayed, we've definitely suffered from that. I hate when people manage crappy properties. They're making excuses for why it's crappy. They're having to explain bad decisions. That's a bad relationship float to get started on. Jason: I've talked quite a bit and people for me talk about the "cycle of suck" but I think this is an interesting ingredient that's overlooked is as a property manager, in order to stay out of that "cycle of suck" of having bad properties, bad tenants, and bad reputation in the market, one of those ingredients is to have a philosophy of maintaining the properties at the highest level because that is going to dictate the types of tenants, that's going to dictate the type of situations that you're going to have to deal with. Something you mentioned that I think is really key is the importance of having a proactive strategy towards maintaining these properties rather than a reactive strategy towards maintaining these properties. I think there's probably a little gradient scale. You should draw on a piece of paper, "Am I reactive or are we proactive?" I think most property managers could figure out where on this continuum they sit. If you're off of middle towards reactive, they're probably a company that's dealing with pain and problems that are unnecessary, and it's because they didn't maintain that boundary like you've talked about with the client from the beginning, and they haven't continued to maintain that when those problems arise with an existing client. Lisa: We've had owners who say, "I can't believe I have to replace this hot water here. It's been working perfectly for 25 years." You've been rolling the dice and getting lucky but just because it's now a rental and it worked fine for you doesn't mean these things doesn't have an actual lifespan. Sometimes there's a tension between owners who just truly don't see the value of maintaining things to the highest possible standard, but the cost of dealing with the flood is much higher than replacing the hot water heater in the first place. Sometimes you can't explain to simple math and logic and people if they're emotionally attached to the idea that you shouldn't spend any money on it. We're actually in the opposite position where, say, it's a rental, take great care of it, it'll take great care of you. Someone's paying for your mortgage. You can capture depreciation. You're probably saving some money, substantially, on taxes. You're going to build an asset and make money basically on the interest rates of a mortgage and I think replacing a water heater is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. They look at it transactional instead of looking at the big picture which is too bad. I think it's on the part of the property manager, we have to educate our owners on what it means to be engaged with that property and keep it in good repair. We give them estimated costs for maintenance over the course of the year and what they should expect. We have them sign off on that, being the expectation over the course of the relationship, that they will spend money on the properties. We make the counterpoint that properties that are in great shape and well-managed tend to keep tenants in them for longer periods of time which means that the turnover costs—the things that you don't necessarily have to do annually like painting. If people hold over as tenants, you're going to have to do it. If you're having a high turnover, you're going to have to pay a leasing fee. There's a lot of advantage to having the nicest possible property and taking great care of it, but it can be hard to walk owners through that. If you're a proxy for owners, and management company has not given the resources to adequately take care of the space, then they're really truly not able to take good care of the tenant and then you're stuck being the bad guy. I think a lot of property managers have been in that position. It's hard to explain that to a tenant. They don't care who owns the property. They just want it to operate really well. Jason: All of this really starts with your onboarding process with new perspective clients, it sounds like. You're throwing little things out there that I think people are missing. You are taking people through an estimated maintenance cost and you're giving it to them upfront, so they have an expectation to spend money to take care of these things. You're talking about educating them. You have some sort of verbiage, process, or something. You're taking them through to educate them on why they need to maintain this property at the highest level. You're shifting their mindset away from trying to keep cost low and charge rent high and over the life of the property, make sure it's a good investment. You're also helping educate them on the importance of keeping in it long-term, and there's probably other things that you guys do as a company to shift towards this. It sounds like you've really worked backwards from the idea of, "How can we have really great properties and how can we make sure that we have owners that will allow us to keep them really great?" I'm guessing based on your background, what really seems to drive this, what I'm hearing is that you really want to take care of the tenants. Lisa: Oh, absolutely. A happy tenant is going to take great care of that space. If they're feeling well taken care of, then it's truly in the best interest of the owner and property to do so. Again, people are happy where they live then they're just better neighbors. That's what we're all about. We live next door to a lot of our properties. We're around our tenants all the time. We're part of this community. We want them to have a happy living experience. We want that to not be a stressful thing for them because life is stressful enough. When they have a maintenance request, we can respond to it and take care of them quickly and swiftly and they know that we were on top of it for them. Jason: Lisa, for those that are listening, they're like, "Lisa's got 1000 doors." You're like one of the whales in the industry. You're one of the unicorns that's made it magically to this place, that every property manager maybe dreams of, or they think would be incredibly painful to get to and doesn't dream of. What things do you think you did early on that allowed you to grow through some of those really difficult, painful stages? There are painful stages in property management in terms of growth. How did you weather through those while other companies get so stuck? Lisa: I'd say technology, being nimble, and staffing are the three top things that we do. Being nimble is the first one. We stop all the time and evaluate our systems and strategies for how we do our work. We're very open to the idea of changing the way we do things for the better. That is something that I think over time we all know that you'll hit a certain number of doors and all of these systems that worked great for under 200 doors suddenly, it's just the house of cards at 300. We had to get really deliberate about stopping and pausing long enough to study the work and reconfigure it so that it was working well for us. That led to us being really thoughtful about using technology really effectively. Our property management software, we kept using these workarounds for different tasks that had to be done. We weren't pausing often enough to go back and see if the tool had changed enough to accommodate our needs where in fact, it had. We get a lot more focused on making sure that—AppFolio is the software that we use—that it was meeting our needs. We keep […] just in terms of how we relate to that company. We're asking for the change that we wanted and needed. We started relying even more heavily on it. We started creating, really tried and true conventions around how we work with the software, the tools, and the processes. Lastly, and definitely not least and the most important thing we did, was really honor and cherish the staff that we have that comes in everyday to deliver on this promise—that we're going to provide exceptional places for great people. The talent, the staff, and the commitment has been extraordinary to me and something I think I'm most proud of in the work. If you're not taking good care of your team, then you cannot be an exceptional service-based company. Making sure to profit share, being as generous and thoughtful about benefits and any other extra that you can be, working as a team member, not taking people for granted, giving people a lot of time off and flexibility—basically, anything we can do to underscore a culture that makes this a great workplace will lead to better outcomes for management as well. It's the staff, it's hard work, and it's technology, all of that is the secret sauce, but it has worked to get by in and get people to get very invested in the work that we're doing. I think the tenure of our team really indicates that we've nailed that one. Jason: I think everybody knows they need really good staff. I think everybody goes, "Yes, we need really good technology." I think you mentioning being nimble is not something you typically would hear. I think a lot of property managers are like, "What?" I love this idea. How do you actually go about being nimble? How do you maintain that? I think every company likes to believe or hope that they can stay young, stay fresh, and not get stuck in their ways, but it happens. Over time, they start, "This is how we do things," and they […]. Do you have a process? Is this something you tactically sit down and do on a regular basis? How do you guys actually become nimble? Lisa: We actually spend a lot of time retreating and having conversations about our systems. We commit a lot of energy to those conversations. We'll do a quarterly all-staff, all-day retreat. Often times, those retreats are about how can we streamline and be better at our work and we'll break into different teams. We did a really fun thing that I actually picked up from someone that had presented in NARPM where we had people do a shark tank session. We had teams get together and proposed different ways of engaging with our clients that would accelerate the client experience. We implemented every single one of them. When you're asking for everybody to contribute, to revisiting and focusing on how our systems can be more improved, from the plumber to the CEO, we have everybody participate in those all-day meetings and coming up with ideas for how we can be even better at what we do. They see that the fruits of that time. We did something with those ideas. I think everybody's really motivated to make sure that we take that time away from our work to revisit how we're doing it. To be honest, everybody will hate a certain aspect of their job, they'll dislike something, or something will get tedious and I invite people everyday day, like, "Stop and steady it. Ask yourself, do you have to do that task? Can you do it differently? Can someone else do it? Is there a faster, better, smarter way of doing it?" If you're inviting everybody to ask themselves whether they have to do something that they don't like doing, that's pretty motivating. Like, "I really hate doing this data entry or this workaround on managing the utilities or something." I'm like, "Should we be doing utilities at all? Is this something that we have to be doing the same way?" I think everyone is being invited to find better ways of doing their job and enjoy their job more. That's the investment. When that's the incentive, then I think people are a lot more engaged in being nimble. Jason: I love it. We do that as a company as well and that's built into our cadence of planning system that we do as a company. It's amazing when you allow your team members to give you feedback, the ideas that they come up with. Because our perspective as CEO or entrepreneur as the head of the company, we have what we think we need from the top view but my graphic designer, she's going to have a different perspective from what her standpoint, what we could do differently in our process when we get into that piece. I imagine it's the same in property management businesses. There are so many moving parts, especially when you get into to your size and scale, everybody sees things from a different perspective, and they see things that bother them. They see things that could be improved. They have ideas to innovate and when you allow them the space. I think the magical thing that you're doing is you're allowing your entire company to shift at a tactical day-to-day operation for a short period of time into strategic planning. You're allowing this step and strategic time in a business is the time that grows companies. Companies that only are doing tactical work, maintenance requests, leasing, tactical day-to-day, emails, phone calls, sales, whatever, if you're only doing tactical work, the business can't grow. It just doesn't seem to grow. It's the strategic work that helps you trim the tree so that it can grow. It's the strategic work that help you plan and figure out what you can do next to innovate and create. You built that in as part of your process that you do every quarter. Lisa: Yeah. 100%. Jason: Okay, very cool. I love the idea of the idea of the shark tank sessions and you said you implemented every idea. Lisa: I did. It was really fun. People thought about infographics that we could use to describe what happens you become a tenant and who you're interacting with. We were able to use different Upwork tools and Fiverr tools to get access to talent that before we had thought was out of reach and being really thoughtful about how we used different modern-day side hustle economies to capture talent, and skill sets that we don't have inhouse so that we can some of these big dreams come true for our team. It's been awesome. Jason: Okay, I love it. Is there anything else in the new paradigms in property management, or topic at hand, that you think we should bring up? Because that a really good one, maybe even one to end on. I love that idea. Lisa: I think you ask varied questions and I really appreciate your patience with my technology snafus. Jason: Okay. That's alright. Everybody has technology snafus that has technology. It's just part of what happens with technology, right? Lisa, really appreciate you for being in the show. Thank you for sharing those insights. I think there were some really practical takeaways for people watching that they could implement. Lisa: Awesome. Thank you, so much and great luck, with all of your work. Jason: Okay, thank you. All right. A little bit of delays and lags but that's the internet. I'm at a remote location and doing things a bit differently. Hopefully, you guys can hear me okay today. I appreciate you guys tuning into the DoorGrow Show. If you could take a moment, if you're listening to this later on iTunes, be sure to subscribe in iTunes to the podcast. You'll get notified when episodes come out. You can listen to them while you're driving around, get insights. Be sure to leave us a review on iTunes. We really appreciate that. As a team, that really makes a difference for us. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and make a difference, we would love to have you inside of our Facebook group, the DoorGrow Club. You can join that. It is free. It's for business owners of property management companies. Go to doorgrowclub.com. If you are wanting a more effective website, you are wanting to optimize the frontend of your business, dial in your pricing, dial in sales, dial in […] age of your business, that is what we are experts at DoorGrow. Please reach out to us. You can check us out at doorgrow.com. All right, everybody until next time. To our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.

Are you a property manager or owner who wants to recoup financial losses when stuck with a bad tenant who stops paying rent or needs to be evicted? Lower your risk? Trust somebody else to manage your properties? Protect all parties involved? Today, I am talking to John Higgins, co-founder and CEO of Steady Marketplace, a leading technology platform for property owners and managers. Steady's subsidiaries offer financial products, including rent default insurance. You'll Learn... [02:00] Background of Big Financial Numbers: Starting with event-driven, distressed, and activist hedge fund managers with billions in assets. [06:37] Steady's products protect property owners/managers from bad tenant outcomes. [07:40] Rent Default Insurance: Protection against rental income loss due to tenant's failure to pay. [10:15] Rent Default Insurance is widely available and adopted around the world. About 70% are renters and 30% are owners. [12:38] Collaboration Over Competition: Don't simply copy-and-paste products and policies; leads to lack of innovation. [13:55] Automate It All: Learn from online lending space using technology to streamline processes, operations, and pricing. [15:05] Perfect Businesses are Out of Business: Entrepreneurs think they've got something perfect, only to realize they need to make it better. [16:15] By the Book: Take regulatory issues seriously, and make sure to do it right. [17:00] Adoption is #1 challenge with any solution, software, or service. [17:55] Competitive Advantage: Education, awareness, and understanding of product. [20:53] FAQs: How does it work? Why does this exist? What's the catch? [21:55] Renter's Insurance vs. Rent Default Insurance: What's the difference? Tweetables Every entrepreneur should make a difference. Otherwise, they're just causing problems. When there's a loss of rental income due to tenant default, there is no protection. Automate everything: Go slow to go fast. That's how the process works. It's constant iteration to get better, and better, and better. Resources John Higgins' Email Steady Marketplace Steady Marketplace FAQ John Higgins on LinkedIn SureVestor Rent Rescue National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners, we want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today, I am hanging out with John Higgins of Steady Marketplace. John, welcome to the DoorGrow Show. John: It's great to be here, Jason. Thanks for having me. Jason: John, you've got a really big bio and you're really impressive. Do you want me to read all of it? John: You can read whatever you want to read. I'm not that impressive. I'll say you're more impressive hosting this show and with your following in the space. I'm just a guy trying to make a difference. Jason: I appreciate it. That's what every good entrepreneur is trying to do is make a difference, at least I hope. Otherwise, they're just causing problems. I'll read a little bit here. It says you are the co-founder and CEO of Steady Technologies Inc., a leading technology platform for property owners and property managers. Steady, through subsidiaries, offers financial products that benefit property owners and managers. Their first product is rent default insurance, offered in partnership with the top US insurance carrier that is a Fortune 100 company, rated A+ by AM Best, and S&P. Prior to co-founding Steady, Mr. Higgins founded Nobadeer Advisors which provided business development and capital market expertise to technology-enabled lending platforms across the variety of consumers and business, lending verticals, and backed by top venture capital firms globally. Prior to Nobadeer, Mr. Higgins spent 2.5 years at Prosper Marketplace, Inc. where he helped build the institutional loan program growing it from $0 to over $5 billion over his tenure and help scale Prosper's monthly origination volumes over 4000% during his time at the firm. Mr. Higgins also previously served as a director at Topwater Capital, now owned by Leucadia, where he made investments between $5-$100 million to hedge fund managers across a variety of strategies via structured managed accounts. Prior to Topwater, Mr. Higgins spent five years working for event-driven, distressed, and activist hedge fund managers with assets as large as $1.85 billion. There's a lot of big financial numbers here, John. A lot of big financial numbers. John: Want me to dive a bit deeper on it and summarize for you? Jason: Yeah. Let's dive into that and then tell us how you got into all of these. John: Sure. I can start from how I got into the hedge funds space which led me through here. I started and talk my way into an internship my junior college, totally unqualified, at the University of New Hampshire versus people that are top of their class from top business schools. Got a shot to join big hedge fund on my way up. I worked my tail off that summer and got a full time offer. I joined that firm full time after I graduated college. I was really lucky. I worked for the really brilliant entrepreneur there who would start this business with $500,000. Four years later, he grew it to almost $2 billion. Then, left that company and went to Topwater where I was invested in hedge fund strategies via structured managed accounts, kind of cross the bench of the long, short, and distressed credit. That company was acquired by Leucadia which is now Jefferies Investment Bank; the two merged. Leucadia was at a big stake and Jefferies a long story anyway. As that transaction was transpiring, I was approached by the former management team across the marketplace who've I known from the hedge fund industry. They had great entrepreneurs that built and sold the company that served hedge funds called Merlin Securities. They're backed by Sequoia. Sold that business to Wells Fargo and decided they were going to take over Prosper. They reached out and said, "We're looking for someone to help us build out this business as we take it over and turn it around." Really fortunate to work with tremendous entrepreneurs and the tremendous team there. During my time there, we went from about 50 employees up to about 600+ when I left. That was my first foray into more pure play technology. We're a financial technology platform. We're offering unsecured personal loans online to end consumers. If you're thinking about going online, applying for a personal loan, no human interaction, [...] pricing, I can get you a loan in a matter of days as opposed to having to leave your house, go to a bank, et cetera, and fill up paper forms. After leaving Prosper, I was consulting for various lending platforms as you touched on in the intro. I got to work again with tremendous entrepreneurs across a bunch of different verticals. One of the people I've got to work with was doing some lending into the small landlord space. It's fix and flip lending and also rental lending. I started looking at the opportunities. I said, "This is really interesting. I know all of these products that helped multifamily owners protect them against bad tenant outcomes." There's a lot of companies that pop up doing that, but no one's really going after single family. I started looking at the space and opportunity. As you and everyone else in the space realizes, it's actually bigger than the multifamily space. When you live in New York, everyone thinks rental properties are the big highrise. In fact, there's roughly more than 16 million single family rental units in the US, then another 8 million duplexes, triplex quads. All in all, you have about 20 million rental units in the US owned by individual investors that owned less than 10 units. These owners actually can't solve for this risk which is if the tenant goes bad. The smart owners are getting professional property managers or actually better at picking tenants at the established processes and procedures. They're getting bad tenants out. It can help manage those properties and have better outcomes. But still, when there's a loss of rental income due to tenant default, there is no protection. In fact, my business partner and co-founder, Viken, had a property in New York City that he was renting. Person just skips town in the middle of the night. He was left with close to $20,000. It actually might have been north of $20,000 loss because the tenant just left the unit and didn't say anything. It took awhile to get it rerented. He had no coverage. If he had, it had no protection against that. If you had Steady or some of these other providers that are popping up, they could've indemnify themselves from that loss, and could've been made whole for a modest premium. Long story short, there's a big need in the market to this type of product. What we're really excited about is working with all the property managers across the country to help ensure this is product underlying landlords and finding ways for everyone to win. Jason: Cool. Let's talk about the product specifically. Explain this to somebody that's never heard of this. They might even be an unseasoned property manager. Describe the problem that exists, that this solves for. John: Sure. When you look at it, if the tenant goes bad whether it's professionally managed or not—let's suppose it's some professionally managed properties; that's really who we're serving here in this podcast, and who we speak to—if their tenants goes bad, the owner's mad at them. They might've lose that door because guess what? They probably picked the tenant. They were entrusted by the landlord or the owner to find the tenant, to select the right tenant, and now the tenant's bad. So, the owner's mad, they might lose every relationship. The owner's also rental income. As a result, property managers also lost their property management fee income. Generally, they're charging based on the property management fee. If you look globally, across Australia, New Zealand, and Europe, this type of insurance product, rent default insurance, is widely available and widely adopted. The reason is that, if you look in other jurisdictions, primarily Europe, it's flipped from the US. It's about 70% renter 30% owner. As we know, post financial crisis, more and more US consumers are now choosing to rent instead of own. So, the property management space is going to be larger and the rental property market is getting larger. As this is occuring, we think that more and more people will be in need of this insurance because we have a growing market. The insurance itself indemnifies and there's different flavors. We'll speak generally about rent default insurance and what's out there as opposed to Steady, specifically. What we want to do is educate the market on the availability of these types of products. Rent default insurance, generally speaking, indemnifies the owner against losses as a result of the bad tenant outcome. It could be eviction, tenant skips, et cetera; different programs to different coverages. What this does is it allows the owner who can't self-insure due to the diversification to recoup losses if they are unfortunately stuck with the bad tenant that stops paying rent or needs to get evicted. Different people had different approaches to it. Us at Steady, we've taken a lot of the learnings from the online lending space using technology to streamline processes, operations, and try to deliver a great product that are at a reasonable price to the end market. A lot of property managers are saying, "Hey, this is great. This is a huge concern that my underlying owners have. What happens if the tenant doesn't pay rent?" They see property management companies out there that have eviction protection plans or other plans. You've got the SureVestors, the Rent Rescues, and a bunch of other great companies out here, all serving for these types of risks and helping solve these pain points. The reason for that is this huge market is a huge concern. If you've got one property, say you own a home and you move for work across the country. You can't sell your home or whatever reason you have. You put it with the professional property manager. They're managing that, but you're relying on that cash flow for maintenance, upkeep, taxes, et cetera. In many cases, to pay the mortgage. If that tenant goes bad, all of a sudden, you're break even or your cash flowing property gone upside down and now you're coming out of pocket. You now have a liability that you have to come out of the pocket for every month. That's a big pain point, a big concern, and what these types of products do is solve for those types of risk, help landlords have peace of mind, and protect against bad tenant outcomes. Jason: You name dropped some of your own competitors, which is very generous of you. How does Steady standout or differ? How do you compare, standout, or differ in the space? John: We've taken a bit of a different approach on how we can structure our products and policy. A lot of other competitors, not just in space but in insurance generally, what they do is copy and paste what other products work on their markets or other products that other people have launched, and there's not a lot of innovation. As a result, we haven't seen a huge take rate for these types of product in the US. What we found—you might feel differently—my business partner, Viken, grew up in Paris. What works in Europe doesn't necessarily work in the US. What works in Australia doesn't necessarily work for the US. What Viken and I did when we came together is we deconstructed how these programs work globally. We took a lot of the learning from online lending to build what we believe is a better program here in the US. One differentiation is automation. Our entire process is fully automated. We just set an email prior to this event saying, "We are now in 20 states." We've got the ability to be in all 50 states. The reason we're not in all 50 states right now is because we want to automate everything. It is going slow to go fast. As we start to take it off here and ramp because the updates have been very strong, it's continuing to go stronger daily, everything will be automated. What that will result in is more efficient processes, procedures, and better pricing. Jason: Explain what that means so everyone understands. You're saying that automation is a differentiator and that it's fully automated. What's automated? John: A property manager or a property owner can go online to the website, inquire about rent default insurance on their own, and complete the entire process in less than two minutes. There's no human interaction necessary and they could do everything themselves. Now, newer company, newer brand, we're lucky to be aligned with the very strong brand in the insurance space, but nothing's perfect. As you know, as an entrepreneur, you think you've got something perfect and they realize you need to make it better. That's how the process works. It's constant iteration to get better, and better, and better. Jason: The perfect businesses are out of business. John: Right. We continue to constantly push new development releases and streamlining things. What we believe is that, if you can make the process as easy as buying, say for instance, travel insurance when you're buying a flight and make it that easy, that will be a great outcome for us and for this market. The way which you can do that is through API integrations, the right product structures, the right creativity, the right business development strategies, et cetera. If you look at our product, where our technology is our technology, our product is our product, the two weren't built separately. They're built together. They work very closely together and in tandem. Because of that, it allows us to deliver a great customer experience, a frictionless process, high scalability, and keep headcount well. Right now, our biggest expenses have been legal and engineering, as you can imagine. It's a technology company, but legal because we invest heavily in making sure that we do everything right and by the book. Also, that our partners do things right by the book. As you know, the property management space has some instances where people have more of a cavalier or cowboy type approach that works until it doesn't. For us, we have ambitions to be a very large company and we operate in a highly regulated space. It's non negotiable for us to run into issues on the regulatory front or have our partners run into those issues. We take that very seriously and focus on in making sure everything is done the right way. Jason: That makes sense. The number one challenge when it comes to any solution or software or third party service is adoption. It's how easy is it for them to adopt this and use. If adoption is a challenge, then it's not going to work. It's not going to grow. People are not going to use it or it's going to be confusing or frustrating. I'm a big Apple fan. Apple made adoption very easy. My AirPods, I just hold them out, open them up, my phone just show them on the screen, and they connect. It was magic, it's easy, I didn't have to fill around weird Bluetooth settings or hold down buttons. What you're saying makes a lot of sense. You've mentioned that it's easy for the consumer or for the property manager. One challenge that I see a lot of firms run into is when you're servicing an audience that's servicing that same audience. You almost can become competitors with them. How do you negotiate that? How does the property manager still have a competitive advantage against them just working with you directly? John: I guess, education, awareness, and understanding. People [...] this in massive market. People don't even know about this product. One parallel I draw frequently is pet insurance. I've got a pet, I've got a dog who's five now. I have pet insurance that I pay $70 or $80 a month. They haven't got a good plan because the vet at the time said, "Hey, you should consider pet insurance if there's ever an issue." To me, the asset there is the pet. A little bit different than a rental property, maybe not as emotional as a rental property would be. They said, "Maybe you should look at this." It's a similar thing as what you're seeing happening in the property management space. Property managers are the fiduciary, the trusted advisor to the asset and the asset owner, which is the landlord or the small rental property owner who's contracted the property manager for their services. If they can be introduced to this product, it's for their benefit. We don't have a big direct push. We're not looking to go after single family rental landlords directly. Our entire business model is predicated on partnerships. Based on our analysis, there's roughly eight million rental units in the US managed professionally. We've love to see that grow larger. Those are also, for us, we believe the best risk. As I touched on earlier, we believe strongly that property managers are better at picking tenants, have an established processes and procedures in getting bad tenants out, and they can get units rented more quickly. Jason: Which lowers your risk as an insurance provider. John: Correct, which results in better outcomes from the underwriting perspective. Jason: Okay, makes sense. Your interests are aligned directly with property managers. They're your focus. John: Yes. They are our focus. We just did a giveaway today to property management conference for people that could enter. We view property managers as our partners. Again, the reason I mentioned some of our competitors earlier because the rising tide lifts all boats. We want to see everyone do well, we want to see landlords have access to the solution so they get better outcomes, and we want to see property managers to be able to benefit from this as well. Jason: Yeah, I love it. I believe that too. I have said before, rising tide raises all ships, but sometimes the bar is so low in property management in some areas and in some markets, that I don't think every ship's going to rise. Some have too many holes and are going to sink, but that's okay. John: That's right. That's Darwinism. Jason: Right, survival of the fittest. What are some of the most frequently asked questions or concerns that property managers are asking you or have been asking in sales conversations? So that we can make sure we address them here on this show. John: A lot of things that a lot of property managers ask is simply how it work. We have an FAQ section on our website and we can share the link on it. "How does it work?" "Why does this exist?" "How can no one else is doing is?" As I catch on, this is the third time I'll mention SureVestor, Rent Rescue, and others. The awareness is growing and that's what the biggest challenge is for all of us in this space is awareness that these types of solutions are available. This isn't like rental insurance or pet insurance. Pet insurance, I guess, is now becoming widely adopted, but people don't know about it and don't understand it. Most of the reactions we got is, "Wow, this exists? This is great. How does it work?" "Wow, that's inexpensive. This makes a lot of sense." It all depends on the property address, the rent amount, and the pricing. Jason: For anyone that's confused, let's just explain the difference between renter's insurance and rent default insurance. John: Renter's insurance covers the renter's possessions and liability to the landlord, generally speaking. It's paid for by the renter and they're doing it, so if there's a fire in the unit, they're not covered from the landlord's policy. Their possessions are gone. The landlord gets the unit rebuild, the house rebuilt, but they don't receive anything. Now with renter's insurance, then we get some coverage for that. From the landlord's perspective, if the renter has renter's insurance, they have a guest over, they slip and fall, and break their leg, it protects the liability to the landlord for them getting sued from that slip and fall. That's renter's insurance. Rent default insurance, it depends on the program. Different people, different features. Generally speaking, it covers loss of rent due to tenant skips, eviction, and tenant nonpayment for whatever reason. Jason: Sometimes, we have to make sure things are at an 8 year old level so that everybody gets it. John: I generally need things at an 8 year old level to understand. Jason: Right. Most entrepreneurs do because we're just so damn impatient at paying attention to things sometimes. All right. We talked about how it works, why is anyone doing this. Any other frequently asked questions that people are concerned about? John: "What's the catch?" generally. Insurance companies, for better or for worse, generally don't always have the best reputation for making it easy to make claims, et cetera. That's another thing. Some people want to see the policies and see things in that nature. Again, the big thing is people just don't understand these types of products exists. That's why we're out there educating the market and letting people know that there are these types of coverages available and you can get the coverage to these types of risks. Jason: Let's touch on the benefits for a property management business in having this in their repertoire of services and how this can help them sell and close more deals, give them the competitive advantage, maybe. John: What do you see is property managers are now looking at this and some are saying, "I'm just going to include it in all my plans," and say, "This makes a lot of sense." Now, we've got a differentiator. All of my property management packages include three months of rent default insurance if the tenant goes bad. They're out there marketing and saying that it includes it. Others are saying, "This is interesting. How can we offer this and earn some B revenue?" The only way it works, as I touched on earlier with compliance, is you can't get paid for the sales, solicitation, negotiation of insurance, unless you're an insurance producer. You can do other things such as marketing fees, et cetera, but you can't make conditions on the sale, solicitation, negotiation, and insurance. That's why we spend so much to make sure that anything we do, anything our partners do in partnership with us, is fully vetted and above board. We make sure everyone stays on the right side of the rules. Jason: Do they become somewhat of an insurance agent? Or you're just laying that all together? John: No. They do not become insurance agents in any way, shape, or form unless they've got an insurance agent license. Then, they could be an insurance agent, obviously. Jason: Okay. John, it's great to see an entrepreneur doing something that's impacting the industry. I believe these products are going to have massive ripple effect in the industry. They're going to create a lot more safety and certainty in the property management space. It's going to lower the risk. It's going to lower the pain threshold for landlords to trust somebody else to manage their properties. It's going to protect all the parties involved and that means it's going to help the industry grow. If Australians, somebody said their markets are any indicator, it seems like these types of products help these markets grow significantly in a relatively short period of time, over a decade. They've grown phenomenally. I heard stats like Australia's grown through 25% in a decade. Largely, they claimed that it was connected to that. I don't know if that's accurately or true, but if that were true and the industry—single family residential—were maybe about 30% are professionally managed, that almost be our industry doubling here in the US. I don't know that there's enough companies here in the US right now to handle that level of growth. That would mean we need to double the amount of companies or we need to double the size of every company that exists. Something in between that. John: Or let's double the size of every company that exists. That'll be a good outcome for everyone. Jason: Yeah. Regardless, I want to make sure that we've got the best. Let's raise the tide. I appreciate that you're seeking to raise the tide. I think collaboration over competition is what builds market, it's what builds the category. It's always important to build the category before you try to build the individual brand. That's Marketing 101, everybody. Property management is in the same boat. Property management has very low awareness, in general, here in the US and right now, we've got a lot of people going around something in their chest, trying to fill their individual brand. We need to build the category first. There's a lesson for the industry to take away from what you've mentioned and what's going on in what you're doing, so I appreciate that. John: NARPM's done a good job trying to get the industry moving in the right direction. People like you and a lot of others that are trying to educate and build awareness are very helpful as well. It's great to see everyone working together in some way, shape, or form. Jason: There's no scarcity in property management. There just really isn't. There's 70% in single family residential that are self-managing right now. That does not indicate scarcity. In certain channels of marketing, there is a lot of scarcity because everybody's doing the same stuff, there is scarcity. John, I appreciate you coming in the show. How can people get in touch with Steady and learn more about this? John: They can go to the website www.steadymarketplace.com or shoot me an email john@steadymarketplace.com. Jason: Perfect. John, I appreciate you coming on the show, I appreciate what you're doing, and I wish Steady success. John: Thank you, Jason. Thanks for having me. Jason: Check them out at steadymarketplace.com. If you are, for some reason, not getting the growth that you want, you're growth is good, but you want to pour a little gasoline on that fire, if you find that you're getting a lot of your business lately from word of mouth, and from the trust that you built in the marketplace, I would love to pour gasoline on that fire. That's what DoorGrow specializes in, optimizing your warmly funnel and optimizing your business for more organic growth, which is a lot less expensive than showing up tens of thousands of dollars a year towards pay per click, SEO, and everything that everybody is competing and already doing. Like I said, I don't believe there's scarcity in the industry, but I believe there's false scarcity that's been created by marketers, and you can avoid that. For those who can't see, I'm wearing my "SEO won't save you" shirt. A lot of people are relying on SEO to save you. Don't get me wrong, SEO is great. If you have the top spot in Google, that's great to have search engine optimization. But there are things that are better than having the top spot in Google like being the most trusted company in your market. Our whole system is focused on building trust for your brand, for your business, and helping you to go after that blue ocean where there's all that business available; that 70%. I appreciate John being on the show. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.

Freedom of time, money, relationships, and purpose is what we all want. Property managers, realtors, and investors help clients build wealth through real estate. Today, I am talking to Steve Welty, owner of Good Life Property Management business and podcast. He enjoys meeting amazing people and indoctrinating listeners with his philosophies. You'll Learn... [03:23] Stop whining about solvable issues, such as online reviews to get warm leads. [04:41] Steve surfs to success with Good Life Property Management. [06:43] Podcast Passion Project: Do content for content's sake; add value to people's lives for opportunities and connections to come your way. [10:19] Don't lose focus on why and what fires you up; limit time and effort spent on your business to achieve outcomes. [15:00] Purpose of Business: Not to make money; build a business that makes money. [16:25] How to be happy: Create momentum for other people to gain momentum. If you wish to become great, learn to become the servant of many. [18:12] Zig when they Zag: Success outside outsource sandbox to reduce costs. [18:55] Results-based Biz: Hire young, smart, motivated people and leave them alone. [19:31] Big Issues, Big Success: More people can lead to more problems; paint a compelling vision to keep good people and let them do what they want to do. [20:10] Move Out and Outwork Others: Create freedom of time and money by hiring CFO or profit first coach/accountant to offer advice, not control over finances. [26:10] Value-add Revenue Sources: If you don't charge for it, you're doing it poorly. [28:25] Opportunities in Other States/Markets: Pop-up shops to buy cash flow property. [29:05] To Die List and Time Study: Procrastination problem property managers and owners experience. [35:00] Barriers/Protections: Teach team and customers how to treat and reach you. [37:35] Opinions vs. Observations: Co-creation/coaching is transformational and transactional superpower that changes lives. [46:45] Give up control and allow people to fail, or you create an unsafe business. [52:30] What Matters: Million ways to get to end results and outcomes. [54:05] Hire and Fire: Center on core values; be reliable, positive, and go-giver (RPG). [57:10] Epiphany: Everything worthwhile lives on the other side of fear. [1:03:05] Money is one side of it. Easiest decision to make is to be a different person. Tweetables Do content for content's sake. Limit time in your business; achieve outcomes with least amount of effort. Add limitations or constraints to create a necessity for innovation. First key to greater time, money, and purpose is to create space for yourself. Resources Steve Welty's Email Good Life Property Management Good Life Property Management Podcast Steve Welty on Spotify Steve Welty on Apple PM Grow Orange Tree Property Management GatherKudos National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) Brad Larson Gary Vaynerchuk The 4-hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss Todd Breen Making Money is Killing Your Business by Chuck Blakeman How I Built This with Guy Raz Let My People Go Surfing by Yvon Chouinard Voxer Jason Goldberg (Strategic Coach) Extreme Ownership Book E-Myth Book The Go-Giver KingJasonHull's Whimple on SoundCloud DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a little bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners, we want to change the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull. The founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, I'm really excited, we're hanging out with Steve Welty. Steve, welcome to the DoorGrow show. Steve: What's up Jason? Good to be here. Jason: Steve and I were reminiscing. I saw Steve at a broker owner conference, the very first one I went to several years ago and we were sitting at the same table and I guess I said hi to you and we were chatting it up. Steve: Yeah. It's funny, I remember that day very vividly and it's interesting because I have a very poor memory. You were the mysterious man behind me and you were dressed really nice. Jason: I don't dress nice anymore. I'm too lazy now. Steve: Yeah, you're just soaking it all, but we were talking before the show, was that really one of your first conferences? Jason: That was the first conference I'd gone to, yeah. My dad had just started property management business. He's got maybe about 200 doors now, but he had just started a property management business. He had been a hospital administrator for 30 years or something and he said, "I'm going to do what Bryan's doing and start a property management business." My brother has got maybe 1000 doors or something like that and he is out of Orange County. Not too far from you down San Diego. He thought, "Bryan's doing it, maybe I could do this too." He decided to become an entrepreneur. Caught the bug. It's been fun to watch that, but I was like, "Dad, let's go do this. I want to see what happens there. The only way I can go is if I'm with you, you're a broker owner." I was his director of marketing and I was just the fly on the wall for Orange Tree Property Management, just checking out what goes on a broker owner. I just want to see what happened there. It was challenging for me though because the entire time I'm hearing people talk about problems, and challenges, and I'm just biting my tongue the whole time. I'm like, "I could solve that challenge. I can help with that." I just had to sit there and be quiet. I've even got a text message from one of my clients that was sitting in the room and he said, "I'll bet this is just killing you right now," I texted him back, "You have no idea." It was just really funny to hear people whining about stuff that I think is solvable. Steve: What was something out of all those issues you're biting your tongue about that you can reflect on today. Jason: Now you're interviewing me. Steve: I'm interested to hear that. Jason: I remember one of the things that really killed me was people were like, "How do you deal with your online reviews? How do you get more positive online reviews?" We have our system GatherKudos, and we have coaching material around that that we'd go through with clients to figure out how to identify peak happiness, leverage a lot of reciprocity, how to get more reviews, how to build a system in your business as part of your onboarding process with new tenants so you get more reviews. I think that's a better system to have than even most marketing systems, because that creates warm leads. I was just sitting there listening to them talk and some of the ideas were, "We're okay, we're good," but I was like, "This is so solvable." Steve: Reviews are still a big issue, six years later or whatever it is. Jason: Correct. Steve: People still can't figure it out. It's tough. I still try to figure it out on a daily basis. Jason. Yeah. Cool. Steve, you've got an awesome property management business. You've got your own podcast that you do. You've got a lot of stuff going on. Help my audience understand who you are and give us a little bit of background on Steve, your adventures in property management, and how you got into it. Steve: For sure. I graduated from San Diego State 2005 and stayed in construction for a little while. I was working with constructions in college, just bumming around, surfing, and doing whatever I was doing. Got my real estate license finally and did some deals 2006-2007. I hear a lot of stories like this, it's like 2006-2007 sales, all of our sales, we should start a Facebook group for sales guys that flamed out, well I think it is, it's probably called than NARPM of Facebook group. It seemed like everyone has that story. I made some nice checks in sales and I thought I was great, and then I became broke very fast. I was 26-27 and I was broke. I was applying for any job that I could get and I went to work for a French entrepreneur in Carlsbad as a personal assistant. He wanted someone to manage his property manager that had a real estate license because he didn't trust his property manager. Jason: Okay, so you were the spy that was going to monitor whether he was doing his job or not. Steve: Yeah, most managers hate it when the owner micromanages you. Imagine a realtor micromanaging you. I was like, "Yeah, I can do that," I never managed anything in my life, but I figured it out and worked with him. He actually taught me some great business lessons looking back, but two years in, it was very stressful working for him. He was not the nicest guy, but he did teach me a lot and then I went out on my own with a business partner at the time. We decided, "Hey, let's start our own management company and just got it enough off the ground to allow me to quit my job, be on property management with my partner I think in 2008. We grew that until about 2012 and then we decided to part ways. I started Good Life in 2013 and then been doing Good Life ever since. I started the Good Life Property Management podcast which has nothing to do with clients, nothing to do with getting new customers. It was really a passion project and something I learned out of that was that I encourage people to do content for content's sake if their heart tells them to do that. A lot of times we try to figure out, "Well, how am I going to monetize that?" I remember when I asked Brad Larson, I think he was one of the first people to do a podcast that was a property manager. I was like, "What are you doing this for?" and he was like, "Oh, it's fun," I was like, "It didn't make any sense, you're wasting time." When you add value, like Gary V—a lot of people have really put this in the forefront—when you add value to people's lives, opportunities come your way, connections come your way. I have so much fun doing the Good Life Property Management podcast and we serve the same community you serve which is property management entrepreneurs. I don't run ads. I have ran ads in the past, but I don't anymore. I don't necessarily get anything out of it other than just meeting cool people and getting to indoctrinate my listeners with my philosophies which are really along the same lines in a lot of ways as you, Jason. I really resonate with your manifesto in a lot of ways, so that's cool. That's it. I'm big into music. I do a lot of music. Steve Welty, I'm on Spotify and Apple, and that's my passion. I'm going more and more into that. Also, we have tried mastermind for property management entrepreneurs to max out their business and life. That's what's up for me. Jason: Cool stuff. I think we have a lot in common. Not only are we both California guys. A lot of people listening may not know this, but I had a band in college. I wrote all the music, I played guitar. I didn't know I was an entrepreneur then. I didn't know that was in my blood, but I was the guy going door-to-door with a guitar and a clipboard pre selling CDs at girl's dorms that I could fund to self-produce an album, and I was playing music. Steve: That's [...]. Jason: I know, it was pretty crazy. The album is on SoundCloud if people are searching for it. Steve: Let's check it out, what's it called, how can we find it? Jason: My username on SoundCloud is my username everywhere, which is KingJasonHull, and the album is called Whimple, that was the name of my band. Steve: I love it. I think you told me that a while back, but I forgot, but I'm really fascinated with that because that was my story, too. I was a songwriter. That was hustle. I give you street credit like going dorm-to-dorm, playing for chicks, that's pretty cool. I thought I was going to be a rock star. That was my deal, but it's so funny looking back. I didn't even practice. I just thought I have the natural talent and I used to drink a lot so I was probably delusional. I had this moment, this crossroads where I was like, "Okay, you're not going make it," I'm not going to be okay being older and broke, so I'm going to go on a business route. I just gave up music completely, and then I was in a strategic coach workshop. I have given it up five or six years and I met this entrepreneur. I was telling him about my story. I was like, "I don't really play music anymore," and he's like, "Oh, that sucks." I'm like, "Yeah, it does suck." Then he's like, "Well, you have a guitar in your office don't you?" and I was like, "No." He's like, "Well you're the boss, aren't you?" Jason: I can see it right behind you. Steve: Yeah, right now I do it. He's like, "You're the boss." I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "Well, why don't you try this, try just putting a guitar in your office. Just make a commitment to picking it up once a day even if it's for one second." It really resonated with me because I had given up a part of myself that was really important because I think a lot of time as business owners, we just get so focused on like, "We got to make this company work," and we'd lose focus of why and what fires us up on an internal level. I did that and that about two years ago, fast forward to today, I'm putting many hours a day into music, into song writing, into recording, into building my audience and it's helped my business so much because when you limit the amount of time that you're in your business, you can only do the things that you're really good at and so that's what I'm really passionate about, is figuring out how can I achieve an outcome with the least amount of effort possible. Jason: Yeah, because when we add limitation or constraint, it creates the byproduct of limitation or creating a constraint is it creates a necessity for innovation. If you have unlimited amounts of time, unlimited amounts of money, unlimited whatever, there's no innovation because it's so easy to be lazy. It's so easy to just let things unfold in a different way, but when we have some time constraints or we have some financial constraints, we have to get creative and that's where the genius starts to come out, that's where new ideas start to come out. I've noticed that even with team members, if I say "I need this done by this time," they get creative or if I need this done under this budget, they get creative, then they start to innovate. If I say, "Yeah, do it whenever, take as much time as you want, spend as much money as you want," there's no innovation. They're just going to go towards whatever seems easiest, which is the status quo. Steve: Yeah, you nailed it. I've been really interested in constraints. I had a son, my first child, he's six months old, Myles, and I was encouraged by a friend of mine. He said "Take 30 days off, Steve," he's like "It'll be the best thing you ever did for your business. Don't check in, don't do anything. Take 30 days off. Be with your son." It was in December, so it was like the perfect time and so I did that, and man he was right. It really levelled up my business, my team got way better. They were already good, but just putting these things into place that force you to grow. That 30 days off was huge. Next year I'm planning a 60-day trip to another country that I'm really passionate about using that. I even got my operations manager. He doesn't work out of the office anymore. I moved out of my office a long time ago because when you're in the office, you are often the bottleneck for your company and everyone comes to you for the answers and the solutions. I really grabbed on to that concept and constantly looking for new ways to use constraints to my advantage. Jason: I love it. It's been awhile since I've told the client to do this, but a lot of clients will ask questions like, "How do I become a business owner instead of my own best employee?" I would tell them, "You just start doing it. You take a vacation." If you schedule a week-long vacation, if you're not taking vacations, for those listening, you schedule week long vacation and you can't take off a week, you're going to have to figure out how to make everything not fall apart for that week. To go 30 days, that's incredible, 60 days is ridiculous, that's pretty awesome. At that point, you've arrived as owner of the company instead of being your own best employee. I noticed when I would take off time or vacation, I would be surprised by how my team would step up. I'd be surprised by the things leading up to that vacation, more would get done than would get done sometimes in months. There are so many little things that you need to get dialed in. "Oh my gosh, they're going to be gone for a week. How are we going to live without Jason? We got to get this." My team would say, "Hey Jason, I need this," or, "I need to access to this," or, "I need to know how to do this." Suddenly everybody's rallying around this idea of taking some stuff off your plate because they need to be able to make sure things don't break and it creates the possibility for you to do that more or forever. Steve: Yeah, and I think its baby steps. I remember when I first read the four-hour work week. I thought Tim Ferriss was a god. I was like, that makes no sense. Jason: Did you almost move to Thailand? Steve: Close, but no, it was just really interesting. I guess from a personal level, having time was even more appealing than being a billionaire I guess to me personally. When I see people like Todd Breen and other people talk at NARPM that would talk about running your business from the beach or not is just very appealing to me. I wanted to grow a self-managing company and it was baby steps. There's this book called Making Money is Killing Your Business and they say it really why. It says the purpose of the business is not to make money, it's to build a business that makes money, like time and money equals wealth. Your business should throw off time and money. Now, if you want to then use that extra time to just pour more time in your business, doesn't mean you got to go live on a beach. You could do other adventures. For me, what's really worked and what I'm super blessed to have now is that it's created space in my life to actually start cultivating the other things that light me up, like music, other things. It gives you those options, but that's what I think in our industry especially in a lot of industries, we want to help people, help them anyway we can to experience that. Jason: They say, "What the world needs is people that are alive" I think as entrepreneurs that's where we feel. We want momentum. That's what we crave. The rest of the world, they're just trying to figure out how to be happy. "If I could just be happy then everything would be great." It's whether they're happy or sad, depressed or excited, but for entrepreneurs, I feel like our two speeds are momentum or stuck, that's it. It's momentum or overwhelm. We either feel like we're in complete overwhelm, we're stuck, we can't move forward or we're frustrated, or were on fire and alive. That's my version of happy or sad. I want to feel like I'm in momentum and I feel like as entrepreneurs, we get momentum when we give it away. When we create momentum for other people, whether it's our clients or the people in our family, the people around us, when we're creating momentum for other people, we get that sense of momentum, too. Steve: Yeah, and that's something I resonate with and I've heard you talk about it Jason. I love that message. I really think that the blue ocean is caring about people more than anyone else, like proactively putting the people in your life in the forefront, figuring out, "Who do I want to be a hero to?" and being a hero is usually used in a reactive way. Jason: Right, like there's a crisis or a problem, now you're going to be a hero. Steve: Right, as opposed to being a proactive hero like spending time and saying, "Okay, who are the most essential people or buckets or groups of people in my life and how can I serve them more deeply and impactfully today," because the best quote of success I've ever heard is something like become a servant of many. If you wish to become great, learn to become the servant of many. I sometimes get a little jaded in certain groups because you constantly hear the feedbacks, the reduce the cost, the get it all out sourced. I use VAs, I look to reduce cost, I look to get fair fees, so I'm not knocking that, but everyone's playing in that sandbox. I'm very interested in seeing what is everyone else doing and how can I do the opposite because that's one of the ways to become successful that I've learned is that you go zig when they zag. That's cliché. You can't do that when you're buried in tenant complaints and one-star reviews and a team you have to micromanage. I'm a big believer in hiring young, smart, motivated people and leaving them alone. We're a results-based company at Good Life. You can work from home, you could bring your dog, although actually our manager of our building said we can't anymore. I don't really care, with the exception of a couple like the front desk needs to be there in case someone walks in and things like that, but do your thing. There's a great podcast I heard yesterday on how I built this with Guy Raz where the owner of Patagonia wrote this book called "Let Them Go Surfing" and it's all about that. I think our biggest issues once we get to a certain size is people problems, and then we don't know why we can't keep good people, it's because we don't paint it in a compelling vision. We micromanage. We don't let them do what they want to do. We try to fit corporate bureaucracies into the more entrepreneurial company that people want to be a part of these days. Would you rather follow just checklists and not have a future or would you rather be able to create your own future? Like I tell my team, "You can become anything with me. The sky's the limit wherever you want to go." So, I think those are big parts of success. Jason: That's really what we're talking about today. The topic is freedom of time, money, and relationships through better business practices. What are some of the practices that you've implemented at Good Life that you feel like you've created more freedom of time and money? Steve: It starts with the business owner and probably a series of game changers. The first was moving out of my office. I had this epiphany and I was taught this by someone and I told the team, we had a meeting, I said, "I apologize. I've stood in the way of you guy's future and I apologize for it. When I'm here, I'm the bottle neck. I'm stunting your growth. You can come to me for all the answers," and the fact is as entrepreneurs if you serve 100 people and say, "Where do you do your best work?" nobody says at their office, who does the best work at their office? Why are we working out of our offices? It's just because that's how it's always been done. I kicked myself out. I don't have a desk at my office on purpose. I used to have the stereotypical nicest office in the corner with the best view, and then it freed up so much space, it helped my team grow. Once I created that space, now I work out of my home, and the first key to greater time, money, and purpose is to create space I believe, for yourself. I came from a place where three or four years ago, my dad always taught me outwork everyone else. I remember one time he came to visit me at a college and he asked me how much I was working, I said about 60 hours a week. He's like, "60 hours? I work 60 hours, I'm retired. What the hell is wrong with you?" Jason: Step it up Steve. Steve: Yeah, and it's great. I love my dad. His work ethic was the reason I'm here today, because it got me to that. There are seasons of life. I knew there had to be a better way, so when I'd made that decision to move out of my office, I said, "Hey, you guys are going to have a bigger opportunity to move up now." Some of the other things we did was hiring an operations manager. That was huge. That created space and that was something I look forward, and it took me probably eight or nine months to pull the trigger on that, but the operations manager was huge. Slowly but surely, I went from just being stressed out all the time, not having any space in my life. An over-scheduled entrepreneur has no time to transform. I said, "Alright, I'm going to create some space," and then all the ideas and all the answers start bubbling to the surface because spiritually we all have all the answers inside of us, just we're so distracted and so just going that we don't allow it. Jason: We're preloaded, we're in fight or flight, we're up in our monkey brain, and all the great things, our greatest geniuses as an entrepreneur can't bubble up or can't come through when we're in that state. Steve: Exactly, and so that's time that just forced me to get more time because as an entrepreneur, you can make that decision. Jason: We're buying time. Every person that we pay on our team, we're buying time. That's what we're buying. I think the mistake we make as entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs I see, they go hire based on an org chart. They don't hire based on what they personally need in order to off load or get themselves out of the things that they don't really energetically enjoy. You getting an operations manager if you're a visionary entrepreneur is brilliant, because that's like the yin to the yang. It's the exact opposite personality type of the driven entrepreneur is to have somebody that is systems-minded, process-minded, and that can make sure everything's running. Generally, us entrepreneurs, we're terrible managers. We think we're great at everything, but we're really terrible managers and usually the operations manager is much better at making sure everything runs smoothly. Steve: It's hard to take off or get more time initially if you don't have the money. The money component is important. I went on a Mastermind trip to Mexico a few years back with a handful of people and we looked at everyone's P&L and that was one of the biggest game changers for me was not only understanding my numbers. I think everyone needs a CFO at least part time or at least some outside eyes on the business is so important. Jason: I have a profit first coach and accountant. I'm not really a big fan of having a CFO in a business. Usually, my take on it is every story I've heard of embezzlement or of challenges it's always like the CFOs, and so they're also the crusher of all hopes and dreams. I don't want somebody making too big of decisions there personally, but I want to be coached, and I want to have input and I want to have insight from a third-party perspective, but I don't want them to have control over my stuff. Steve: Totally. I get that. I don't have a CFO, we use a profit coach. Jason: Yeah, similar thing. Steve: Right, but I found that I wasn't going to build a business I thought I was going to build because I'm a feel guy. Like I learn by doing. Does this feel right and I'll make a decision, but I make decisions very quickly. I'm a high quick start, so I'll make 10 decisions, eight will be bad, two will be great but in the same time that someone else makes one decision. I sometimes can stay a step ahead, but I had to add some revenues and I wanted them to be value-added revenue sources where everyone was a win-win-win, so things like doing inspections better in charging for them. When you don't charge for something, you usually do them poorly. Every manager that doesn't charge for inspections, I guarantee 90% of you are behind on your inspections. Jason: Let's say that again. I like that concept. If you don't charge for it, you're probably doing it poorly. Steve: Right. I'm a believer in this. Just take inspections for example. You go survey people around NARPM or any property management group and everyone's behind on their inspections so they don't do them right. We send a letter to our clients. We said, "Hey, inspections are actually really important. This is when we identify how well the tenant is taking care of the place is when we get out in front of preventive maintenance and it needs to be done well, so we need to hire someone to do this full time and we want to invest in this X amount we charge. It's going to probably save you three times at least that amount by getting out in front of some of this stuff," so that was a win-win and our clients loved it. Maybe they didn't want to get charged initially, but once they saw the improved inspection, once they saw the improved communication and results, that was a big win. Then just some other ones that we added in. I think you got to keep the investor fees-friendly. The worst thing we can do as managers is fee our owners to death and they'd get out of the business. Ultimately, the freedom of time, money, relationships, and purpose is what we want, but it's a human need. It's what your clients want, too. So, we have a unique position as property managers, realtors, and investors ourselves in a lot of cases to help people build wealth through real estate. You're a manager and you make it easy, because if you don't make it easy, they burn out and they sell, but if they hold that house specially in San Diego for 30 years, that's all you have to do and you've set your family up for life. They burn out, so we have a big position, a big part to play here. Jason: I love it, and I love that it's like a mantra, having others build through real estate, and ultimately what property managers could be allowed towards doing. It's not just managing a property. If your interests are in line with theirs, which that's their goal. Their goal is to build some wealth, otherwise, why would they be holding on to that property. Steve: Exactly. There's different ways to do that. Right now, we're looking at some other states to buy cash flow property and figure out how to have our owners follow us into some of these other markets. I think with technology these days, that's what all the venture people are doing, how to just pop up shops anywhere. That's something that's exciting to me right now because in San Diego it doesn't make sense to buy an $800,000 house that rents for $2800. We're sitting on some stuff when the market turns for San Diego, but yeah, there's different opportunities out there. Jason: Alright, cool. What should we talk about next? Steve: You know what I'm interested in? I actually thought of this today, and there's some things I've been thinking about doing that I procrastinate on. You know the saying… Jason: I think every business owner can say that. Steve: I know right? Jason: I call it the to-die list. We all have to do list of stuff. Just last week, I have my weekly commitments and I realized I was carrying all of these things over from week-to-week. I'm the guy that says to my clients, "If there's anything on your to do list for more than two weeks, you're not the person that should be doing it." That's the problem. Yes, we all tend to do that as entrepreneurs. We tend to hold on to things instead of finding the right person to do them or giving it up somebody else. Steve: That's so true. Jason: Talk about the to die list. Steve: Yeah, the to die list. I was thinking about this today. Two examples of things I have been procrastinating on. One, I don't want to answer email, anymore. I literally want to have email leave my life. I have gotten email down to just like 10 minutes a day at the end of the day, have an assistant, but literally that is still bugging me. I once got this really inspiring auto responder from this really smart cool guy, let's see if I can find it. Jason: I don't deal with email anymore? Steve: He said, "Thank you for your message. Perhaps you are overwhelmed by email. In fact, last year I sent 43,742 emails, read and review countless more so in order to serve our stakeholders much more efficiently, I have asked my highly capable assistant that's in New York to review, assign and reply all my email request moving forward," and then it says some other stuff. That's something I want to do, but it's big and scary, and yeah, I know I'll probably have to respond to some emails, but I'm talking about eliminating it more. I'm like, "Why don't I just try that? Why do I have to make this decision I procrastinate on forever? Why don't I just try that?" I think it comes back to we don't want to fail like that, we're always raised with, "There is no try, it's to do or die," or whatever. You don't try, you either do it or you don't, but it's like, "Why can't I just try that? I have an assistant. Why don't I run that for two or three weeks and see how it goes?" The other thing and I'm sure you've probably thought of this, Jason, is like Gary V, having maybe a semi full-time person doing vlogs, recording not just every few days, like every day. I'm just sitting on that and I'm like, "Well, why don't I just try it for like a freaking month?" I think there's so much possibility with that and I wanted to see what you thought because I'm like, "I don't have to commit to it." There's so much stuff. Even hiring someone. I was thinking about hiring a GM or an operations manager for eight or nine months. What if I just said, "Hey, let's try it." I mean this isn't Canada or some other places where I don't think you can fire people. Try it, hire the person, and if it doesn't work out, let them go. Jason: Yeah. Let's go back to the email and then we can go the other thing. Here's how I identify stuff. I mentioned this on the previous episode, but I personally will do a time study probably about once a quarter and if I bring on a new team member that takes something off my plate, because how I identify what I need to get off my plate is by doing a time study. I have to be accountable. Where's my time actually going and which things are low dollar an hour work, which things are things that I don't enjoy. I actually write a plus or minus sign next to each thing that I'm doing, whether it energizes me or it drains me, and then identify the things that are tactical or strategic, things that are self-care versus family time. I have a whole system, I take clients through for doing time studies. When I do this, that helps me get clarity for what I need to get rid of. I gave up email a long time ago because I hated email. It was always a minus sign, it was always tactical, it was never like my hopes and dreams were coming true when I was writing an email. I don't even look at my email. So, if you've emailed me, I'm sorry, I don't look at it. My assistant will take care of the email. She reads it. If she has any questions, she sends me a message through a walkie talkie app, because I don't want to type to her. She'll send me a voice message through Voxer. We use Voxer and I use it with coaching clients, she will send me a Voxer voice message and say "Jason, what do you think, how should we respond to this email. They're asking this." I say, "Just tell them this, this and this, but say it nicer than I just said." Then she'll take care of it, and she's asking me questions throughout the day. We also do daily huddles as a team and that's usually where she gets most of her questions in. I say, "Is anybody stuck on anything?" She's like, "Yeah, did you get my message about this?" "No, I wasn't paying attention." "Okay, what do you need?" I answer it and she can respond to the email for me. She's gotten really good at understanding over time, she gets better and better at knowing my voice, knowing what I would say and she takes care of more and more and more. Every day she'll give me a short list, "Here are the emails I don't know what to do with. You need to take care of these," and I begrudgingly will deal with them within a day or two. That's how it works. [...] then I'll talk with them and move them forward, but outside of that, usually she hands it off to my team or has somebody else in the team deal with it. If it's support-related, I think most of my clients have learned that they're not getting a fast response by coming to me directly. They get their best response by emailing our support email address or system and so I think every property manager needs to do the same. Initially, when you're small you're the guy. They probably have your cell phone number. Tenants owners, everybody, and eventually you change your phone number and you create some barriers and protections, you have to educate and teach people how you want them to treat you, and you're going to teach your customers what are the right channels and you have to teach your team what are the right channels. My days are pretty quiet. Steve: I love that. That's super inspiring. You fired me up even more and I love how you said it's tactical. It's very transactional-tactical. I want to be playing in the sandbox of transformational. I feel like I'm retired now because I do what I want and I'm blessed to say that. There's been a lot of hard work behind that, but I'm to the point to where I'm not going to do stuff that doesn't light me up and there's a small subset of tasks like creating content—podcast is one of them—that I could do all day and I have endless energy for. That's where I add the most value. So, the bigger the impact on people that I can have is going to be when I'm fired up and passionate and not dragging off of email, but I think we don't give ourselves permission to do that. You saying that, I'm all in now. I was 80% in, Jason, now I'm all in. I hope some listeners are all in to move forward. That's what I love about podcasts and other things with so much being shared these days. A lot of times we think things, or we know things internally, or we feel things a certain way, but we don't give ourselves permission to actually say that or feel that in public because sometimes we just need someone else to say it to give us the courage. I've noticed that happening so much lately that I finally got pissed, and I'm like, "You know what? I'm making a list of everything that I believe in whole-heartedly, that I think is a little off mainstream maybe." That way I can have it in writing and I'm just going to start saying these things because I'm tired of being, "Oh yeah, and I felt that way, too," but I never said anything. Jason: I mention this on the previous episode, too, that I've been really opinionated in the past and I've realized that I think I'm a little more humble now that I realized my way isn't always the exact right way for everyone, so I'm learning. I was just in Columbus for a week and one of the things that really hit me hard is that I've been really opinionated and I think it's important to put out things more as observations rather than gospel truth. Somebody may love email or somebody may hate doing podcast stuff. Everybody is different and I think everybody's perception is different, everybody's experiences as to what works or doesn't work in marketing could be different, their market might be different. There are so many variables involved, so I think moving forward, my content is a lot more observational because I've realized I was attracting clients or creating monsters in the industry that are hyper-opinionated and the hyper-opinionated people become like, "Oh my God, [...]," but the problem is they create a lot of negativity in the industry. They become the rampant [...] guys that are heartless, that want to crush all the hopes and dreams of every tenant on the planet. We need to be careful in any business or any industry in being too opinionated because what ends up happening is we end up attracting most opinionated people. Those are the people that turn on you. Those are the owners you don't want eventually. Those are the people that give you the negative reviews when one little thing goes wrong. I want open minded people, and these are the clients that I've loved the most, but I was attracting less of them per capita because of the message that was so in your face. "This is the [...], do this," and I was just so strong willed that way and I realize now that that creates its own monster. I think it's important to share though, honestly, these little things that we have, that are weird about is or that are woo-woo that we feel like the rest of the world will judge. To say. "This is me, this is how I am, this is my experience," and yeah I think you when we let our freak flag fly, so to speak, there are people that run with it. As long as we're not, "Hey, this is the gospel truth. This is the only way to do it," we're not going to turn off so much so many of the people that don't resonate. They might go, "You know, Jason, that's cool that you're into that weird stuff, but I'm more of a practical guy and I don't resonate with that, but I like a lot of the stuff you say." If I say, "This is the only way to do it," I'm forcing them to make a choice to go all in and do everything my way or the highway. Steve: Your coach helped you nail that idea. I had that opposite issue. I think the issue for me was that I didn't want to ever come off as opinionated. I'm scared almost having an opinion because I'm like, "Do your thing, man," so I'm always quick to anything I believe in. I'm quick to say, "Do what works for you. This is just my journey. Do what works for you." I think like attracts like and that's a really cool observation that you started attracting all these opinionated people. The coaching thing, I love that you have coaches and you're a coach yourself because the power of coaching has changed my life. Strategic coach, I work with Jason Goldberg. Every time I have a call with him, I transform. It's really crazy. If there's one thing I'm super high on right now, it's co-creation. Co-creation is the super power that nobody's talking about and I've experienced it in many ways. First through music. Although I normally do music on my own and I'll just write songs. When I get in the room with the right people, they don't even have to be a great musician, it's just that the energy. If we're vibrating on the same frequency, things just come out so great. I played with this rapper the other day. Two of our new songs are two of my favorite songs I've recorded in the past year. Back when I had a casual mastermind that we used to do, helping each other co-create, kick this process back to you, now you kick it back to me and blah, blah, blah, everything just accelerated. So, I think outside eyes on the business, coaches, casual masterminds, paid masterminds, whatever it is, I think the more we're interacting with others and having a sounding board, the faster we're going to get to where we're going and the more transformative the experience will be. Jason: I agree. To touch on that, every single person you'll notice, everybody listening will know this is true. You can talk about it in terms of inner energy or spirituality or whatever, but every single person that you're around brings out a different side of you. There are people that when I'm around them, I feel I'm freaking hilarious, I'm the funniest guy on the planet. They're laughing at everything I say. It's awesome. Then there's people that I'm around that I feel I'm super mental, analytical, and logical. That's how they perceive me and that's what they bring out in me. And there are people that feel I'm this emotional sensitive person. My kids would probably say, "No, he's Mr. Analytical." There are different people that bring out a different side to us. This is also why I have a strong introverted side. I need space away from people to reconnect with who I am and to make I'm me. I feel when we're around other people, part of it is how they perceive and see us, brings that out in us, it allows us to be [...] energy and yes absolutely there's this connection and a certain combination of different people, or different energies, or different whatever that will create a different music. You've got the Beatles, for example. These four guys came together and they created all kinds of interesting sounds and music that had a really strong impact and all them wrote songs [...], but on their own, none of them really created as strong of a situation without the others. Just the energy between Paul McCartney and John Lennon was pretty magical. Steve: Totally, and country artists or country songwriters write typically with at least two but usually three or four people in the same room. I think there's parallels because I can speak from experience. I was constantly, with the exception of going to maybe two conferences a year, I was at the desk in my office, head down, genius with 1000 helpers, although I wasn't a genius that is just a saying I've heard by any stretch of the imagination. Jason: The emperor with no clothes. Steve: Right, the fool with too much control, and that's the thing now. I'm in charge, but I'm not in control and that's self-freeing. It's the people, my people that are awesome are in control and the cool thing now to get to the impact or the purpose part that is super firing me up these days is that I've gotten to a point now to where my job with Good Life is to take care of my team. It's to figure out how can I make their lives better. How can I figure out, what are their dangers, their opportunities, their strengths? Where do they want to be in three years? How can I cultivate that? How can I make it so all of them would run through a wall for me and take a bullet for me because if they would do that, they will treat my money like their money, my company like their company. The reason I started really researching how, I was like how does the military sail hundreds of 18-year-olds across the sea and set up forward military bases. It's just mind boggling, and I read Extreme Ownership. It's a great book, some other books, but you talk about decentralized command. The top gives them the mission and then that leader gives them the mission and then the lieutenant, I'm butchering correct words. Jason: The hierarchy? Steve: Yeah, the hierarchy, but they are allowed to come up with the game plan and the battle plan. One of my jobs at Good Life is to make it okay to fail. To be okay to test things and screw things up and get beat up over it. Jason: Because if they're afraid to fail, guess what happens? They start hiding crap from you. Then there's all the secret stuff going on then there's interoffice politics, there's backbiting. People have to be allowed to fail and not feel they're going to have their head chopped off. Otherwise, you have a business that's unsafe for you. I love the idea of you giving up control, I've given up control over my email. I don't even know what's getting sent out half the time, but I've created trust and I trust her. She's very cautious in how she does it. I've given up my schedule. I was in Vegas last week, the week before that I think it was in Columbus, a week before that I was I think in Phoenix. I don't choose anymore. My assistant, she's like, "Here's a speaking opportunity. You're going to go speak here." She sets up these podcast episodes, everything I've given up autonomy on my time, but I still blackout Mondays and Fridays so I can do some of the things I want and then I have my weekends, but you give up control. The higher you move up in your business, the less control you have and the more you give to the people around you. I just do what they tell me to do. I show up. My job is to support them. I love what you were saying that you've transitioned because I think as we start out as entrepreneurs and we get our first few team members. We're always asking the question and frustrated why can't my team just do what I say. Then eventually we transition and we transform and evolve and realizing they are some of our best assets, they're supporting us, they're better at us in things that they do, they love their areas of expertise and now it's, how can I support them? How can I help them get ahead? How can I make it easier? How can I help them avoid burnout? You also threw out the words transformational and transactional, and I think those are two very different leadership styles that I think are important to point out. I think what you've just been describing is you're trying to create a team that is transformational. Transformational leadership is where you give them an outcome and say, "That's where I want to go," and they say, "Great,. We'll figure it out, we'll help you get there." Transactional leadership is, "We're going to go here and here's exactly how we're going to do it and we'll do it my way," and then there's no buy-in, there's no ownership, they don't get to fail because if they do what you tell them to do and it doesn't work, whose fault is it? It's mine, but that means they can't win too. If they can't fail, they can never win, and you're never going to keep A players on your team that never get to win. This is why people get so frustrated by millennials, because they're dinosaur business owners, they're running their business like assholes, they're tyrants, they're trying to micromanage their team, tell everybody to do it, and it's transactional. They're saying, "I'm giving you money, just do what I tell you to do. I paid you, do it." Millennials don't stand for that. They value themselves more. They want something beyond just being told what to do and getting a paycheck. Believe me, I have team members on my team that would just be there to show up and [...] and get their check. They don't believe in you, they don't believe in the company, they're hypers, and they go home and complain about you, and the job, and they live for the weekends. But if team members enjoy the work and they feel they have freedom and they have autonomy, you have their discretionary time. They're thinking about you after work. "How can we make this better?" They're thinking about you on the weekends. They do extra stuff because they're in love with what they're doing. Steve: Totally. Now, you said that really well and I think what comes up for me as the EMyth, which was a very transformational book to use that word for me. Checklist, at certain points at Good Life, we are a results based company, but a lot of times I get pulled to these meetings it's like this person is not… they checked the box and they didn't do it or they didn't check the box and they should have, you know I mean? What's the results? Is the days on market good? Where is his KPIs? Although they're good, we have this back and forth. So, here's something that I want to stick my flag in the sand as something that's not conventional and goes away from my instinct which is let them figure it out. I don't care about the checklist. We're not all going to be McDonald's. Honestly, I'm not trying to scale my business across the whole country, if I was, I probably would have to make sure everybody checks that box, but I'm really interested in the small giants approach, where it's going deep with the smaller amount of people, still having a big business that makes a big impact. I say, "Hey, look at the results. Make it a results-based company because they can own it. They have more ownership in that regard." Something else that comes to mind was, I remember I used to walk into the office when I used to go to the office every day and people would be on YouTube and I would freaking be so mad. They're watching some videos, I would stew about, I wouldn't say anything right away. I would go in my office and fume. Then I remember I talked to a friend about it, someone I respect, a mentor. He's like, "Man, you got to let that go. If they get the results, who cares how many cat videos they're watching. You want a fun environment. If you go lay the hammer down on that, you're going to not have the team that you need to have to make your dreams come true." Someone I respected telling me that was me letting go of a helium balloon. All this weight was just lifted and I was free. I didn't have to micromanage. Jason: I think it's interesting because sometimes usually the person or the team that gets really caught up on the checklist and everything being done a certain way, that's usually the operations person. They love that stuff, and it needs to be done this way, but I think that's our job as the visionaries to remind them it's the outcome that matters. It's the end result that matters. The end result is making sure we have a profitable business. The end result is to make sure that we're honoring our customers and we're treating people well. These sort of things, if we want to get to the outcome. How we get to that outcome, there's probably a million ways we can do it, and whether a certain box wasn't checked or certain thing didn't end up happening. Well, maybe that process is too cumbersome. Maybe it needs to be supplied, as long as getting a result. There's always this balance. You can have a 30-point checklist that somebody has to complete, but if you can get it down to 10 steps and they can actually do it every time and it doesn't feel it's in the way, then you're better off than the people that are operating without looking at a process document because most people don't. They'll do it once and then just skip it. You need something that they can live with on an ongoing basis. I think that's really important to point out what you said is that it's the results, that results don't lie, it's the outcome that really matters. So, I think if you take a step back and say, "Well, what outcome are we going to achieve? Somebody's talking about checklist not being done well. What was the outcome we were trying to achieve? What's the outcome? Okay, did we achieve it? Who was responsible for it and how do we know whether it got done or not? Okay great, well then we're good, maybe we should change the process." Steve: Exactly. Those are some things, but the exciting part is having freedom of time, money, relationships, the people you work with, the people you get to do business with, I know you talk a lot about firing the bad clients. That was an amazing experience, our profit went way up when we fired the wrong types of clients and getting really centered on our core values because then it's easy to hire and fire people and hire clients based on your core values. Ours are really simple. It's RPG: be reliable, be positive, and be a go giver. It's based off that book, The Go Giver, and it's just simple. We used to have seven or eight, but then I couldn't even remember what they were and they felt weird, so we made it really simple. Now, my business development manager just goes down the list, like, "Are they reliable? Were they at the appointment on time? Did they send you the thing they said they were going to send you?" It just makes this compass of how to do business with the type of people that are going to make you successful. Jason: That's one of the things that coach clients through is to get clear on their three, maybe four core values because you can have a list to 10, you can have 20, but really your team aren't going to remember all of those and you can usually boil it down to three core things. For us, ours are a little bit different. One of my core values is just transparency. That's originally why I call my company Open Potion and in just creating transparency I think in the industry has created some various significant shifts. I think also for [...] just how I operate. That's a value that is central to me and I want my team to espouse and really our companies are just extensions of us. It's my Iron Man suit that I get the strap on every day, that's my team and everything around me. It increases my capacity. It makes me feel a super human. I'm getting more done. I've got India handling my email and Adam handing fulfillment. I feel like I'm a superhuman. Steve: He's awesome, by the way. Jason: Thank you. I think of other things I'm really big on is just eliminating constraints and looking for the big constraints that are preventing momentum, so that I can create momentum. It's all about creating momentum for my clients and for myself. I think it's going to be different for everybody. With all the different things that we are inspired or that resonates with us and I think every business owner needs to get clear on really what their values are because you can't have it. There are only two types of team members. There are hiders we talked about that are hiding and they are living for the weekend and they show up for paycheck or there's believers. The only way you can have believers is if you have something for them to believe in. If you want believers on your team and you want clients that believe in you, you have to have values that you make transparent or clear to the marketplace or to your team so that they can they can buy in to them. It's amazing to see companies get to a large size without even having that in place. Once you get it in place, I imagine the shift is traumatic for the culture. Steve: And if there's one last thing I would leave the listeners with that's going to be probably the most impactful thing for me in the last 24 months was, I had this epiphany that everything worthwhile lives on the other side of fear. I knew that instinctually and I've been told that before. You know how you can read a book, that's why they say re-read the books that you love because you read it four times and then you'll start to actually really get it. I knew that, but I didn't really get it and it hit me, it became crystal clear. I was like, "Okay, if I want my dreams to happen and be fulfilled and live a life that I want, I have to figure out what scares me and do that." I have a two-part test. Does it scare me, part one. Part two, does my heart tell me to do it? If the answer to both of those is yes, you do it. I even made a wristband that says, "What scares you, do that." I don't have it on me right now, I took it off. Just to remind me and it goes back to the try thing. All my biggest leaps came after I did something I wasn't prepared for and I was scared to do, like going to that mastermind. I couldn't afford it, it was really expensive. Hiring my operations manager, hiring a marketing manager. I gave a talk recently at PM Grow that I thought I was going to be broke after I hired my marketing person because I didn't think I have the margin and we ended up having our best year ever. It comes back to the try thing. Figure out what scares you, do that, try it, whatever it is. I think that's where we make our biggest leaps and that's what sets people apart from living a life that they intended to having regrets, which is the number one regrets of the dying is that they didn't live a life true to themselves, instead they lived a life other people expected them to live. That's the thing that scares me more than anything in the world and so I'm passionate about sharing that message. Jason: Steve, it's been awesome having you on the show. I'll second that. It really is that voice deep down that is that voice of truth, and also you can ask yourself deep down, "Do I really want to be doing this?" Deep down, "Should I be doing this thing?" Deep down, "Does this really resonates with me," and if the answer isn't a, "Hell yes," then there's a lack of congruency and I think that's where you're saying your heart is yes. I think [...] of something that isn't working is the death of something inside you. It means change, something has to die. You want to know what's really interesting? I've noticed a lot of this on [...]. The scariest thing to kill or to allow to die is the fantasy of something great. I'll explain this, I've noticed this a lot lately with business owners. They have this fantasy of having a really healthy business, or having a business that is growing, or a business that they contribute, or they get to do great things, and that fantasy is so exciting to them and juicy to them that they don't want to take action on it, because to take action on it means they have to kill it. They have the brutally pull out the knife and slaughter their fantasy the second they start taking action towards it, because now reality sets in. Reality is never going to be at that level that the fantasy was, but it's better because it's real. I usually use the example of my friend in high school that wanted to be a rock star, which sounds like you. You had to eventually give up the fantasy of being a rock star or you have to choose into it fully. He had this fantasy of being a rock star and he would buy expensive guitars and amplifiers, and he wouldn't take guitar lessons. He won't love the fantasy of having this fantasy of being a rock star and as long as he can buy cool guitars and keep imagining this future that would never happen, he was happy, but he didn't want to go sleep in his car and do gigs, tour round, work his butt off, and practice nine hours a day. He didn't want to do any of that. That's reality. Reality means some work. Initially, if you're listening to this and you're like, "This is great. Jason and Steve have these companies and making all this money, they've got their assistants. It must be so nice for them." They're probably listening and going, "I don't get it. I'm not there." You may have to be the person listening that you right now, it's time for you to double down. It's time for you to hustle. It's time for you to do stuff that scares you. It's time for you to get off of the fantasy of whatever you're hoping of doing or hoping of starting to really get out there and do the work, the hard work to make it happen and you listen to that voice, you get to that place. You get to that place eventually where you're now are able to focus on your team. You're able to be a coach and a mentor to people around you instead of the person trying to figure out how to get everybody to do everything. I think that transition really involves taking those scary leaps. I think every coach that I've hired was a leap. None of them were cheap. Every coach I've hired, every program or training I bought into, some of them I couldn't even afford at the time. They were risks, but I knew deep down it was a yes. I just knew it was a yes and it terrified me. I think for those that are really analytical and logical, they're like, "I don't get it Jason," but for anybody else listening. If you have that voice deep down inside that is saying, "Hey, this is what's next for you. You've known it. You've been avoiding it and you're trying to figure out how to make it all feel safe, take the leap, and jump and do it. Worst case scenario, you're going to learn some powerful lessons." I had lessons where I spent a lot of money and it didn't work out. A lot of money. I've probably lots of money making some bad choices, but I wouldn't trade those lessons and I've learned from them. Steve: Yeah, and money is just one side of it. Making a decision to be a different person, or to take more time off, or to go into a completely different field, that's probably the easiest one to do is scratch a check for something. Sometimes our way of being is probably what gets in the way of most of our issues because you can't solve the problem with the same mind that created it. Creating some space and getting clear always helps, getting clear on what you're trying to do and the life you're trying to live. At the end of the day, we're the writer, director, producer of our own store and I love how you said, you kill off the fantasy because that's true. It's scary. I think that's why a lot of people don't delegate it or it takes so long to delegate because it's scary. If you give that up, what are you going to do? Then you actually might have to sit with yourself and figure out what's next and nobody wants to be alone with themselves. That's a scary place. It's through the work, it's through conquering those demons slowly over time that I've seen good results, so it's a process. Take it easy on yourself and do what's doable. I beat myself up a lot over the years and it's I think we're all pretty ambitious. Don't kill yourself. Life's too short. Just have fun with. Do what's doable. Jason: Well, Steve, it's been awesome having on the show. I'm sure we could jam over and over and over again about all kinds of cool things. I appreciate you being here. Fun having you and I think there's a lot of really good takeaways for people that are going to listen to this or relisten to this and thanks again for coming on. Steve: Yeah, thanks for having me, Jason. Jason: You're welcome. How can people get in touch with you or some of the stuff that you're doing? Steve: If you have any questions you can always email me steve@goodlifemgmt.com. Then check out the podcast, Good Life Property Management Podcast, we love that, and then Tribe Mastermind Podcast with me and Jordan Muela. Those are two podcasts that are we have a lot of fun with, that are around business, mindset, and all that good stuff. Jason: Cool. All right. Great. Thanks Steve. I appreciate you. Steve: Thanks so much for having me, Jason. Jason: All right. That was fun. If you are property management entrepreneur and you don't have a coach, I recommend that you find somebody. Find somebody, find the best that you feel you can afford at where you're at right now. Get some input from somebody else. Find a mentor, find another property manager in your state. If you need to, find somebody that you feel you can lean on as a resource. Nobody has to be alone in business and I think one of the biggest pitfalls that I had early on I think most entrepreneurs have is that we feel alone. We feel we're weird, we're different. We are, we're different than a lot of the world, but there's plenty of people us out there and so make sure you have somebody that you can look up to, that you can lean on, that can give value to you and it's never just one person. Keep going. Keep doing this. Keep feeding into yourself. That's always an investment that's going to pay off. If we can help in any way with that, I would be honored. You can reach out to us at doorgrow.com and we would be glad to support you in the beginning of that journey towards your growth. As always, to our mutual growth. Until next time. Bye everybody.