The MikedUp Show

In this episode of Miked Up, we sit down with Patty Arvielo, CEO & Co-Founder of New American Funding, to break down the mindset, systems, and leadership philosophy behind building one of the largest mortgage companies in the country. From starting as a loan processor to leading a national powerhouse, Patty shares what it really takes to evolve from employee to entrepreneur—and why most originators never make that leap. This is not about rates. This is not about products. This is about how you think, operate, and build. What You’ll Learn • Why passion beats talent in mortgage • The difference between a loan officer and a business owner • How top producers build and dominate their database • What “own your zip code” really means • Why AI is an advantage—but not a replacement • The biggest mistake loan officers make with product knowledge • How to build relationships that outlast rate shopping • Why the same people hit President’s Club every year • How mindset—not market—determines success Key Takeaways Patty makes one thing clear: Loan officers who treat this like a job will lose. The ones who win: • Invest in themselves • Master guidelines and products • Build real relationships (not surface-level) • Think like entrepreneurs inside a platform • Use AI to enhance—not replace—their process The future belongs to originators who combine execution + relationships + technology. Standout Moments • “NAF is the platform. The loan officer is the business.” • “Every time you don’t know a loan program, you lose money.” • “The next 12–24 months will create an unfair advantage with AI.” • “The best loan officers are just really good friends.” • “Winning isn’t the goal—building something that lasts is.” Episode Sponsors TrueWork Income verification doesn’t need to be fragmented. TrueWork brings all VOIE methods into one platform—helping lenders increase completion rates, reduce costs, and close faster with verified data. https://www.truework.com/2026-mikedup?utm_source__c=MikedUp&utm_medium__c=Podcast-Sponsorship&utm_campaign__c=Q1-2026-MikedUp FundingShield Protect your closings from wire fraud and cyber threats. FundingShield delivers real-time transaction verification and certified protection to safeguard funds and validate every mortgage transaction. https://www.fundingshield.com

In this episode of Miked Up, we sit down with Brent Houston, Chief Operations Officer at ARDRI and a founding member of the organization, for a deep conversation about leadership, innovation, and building a mortgage platform designed for the future. With more than 30 years of experience across mortgage banking, real estate, portfolio lending, and asset management, Brent Houston represents a rare blend of traditional mortgage expertise and entrepreneurial vision. His career has been defined by identifying where the industry is headed next—and building the infrastructure to support it. Today, at ARDRI, Brent is helping lead one of the most technology-forward platforms in the Non-QM and Business Purpose lending space, focusing on scalable systems, AI-driven automation, and data-backed operational strategy. In a lending environment that is rapidly evolving, Brent’s mission is clear: make alternative lending faster, smarter, and more accessible for brokers, investors, and underserved borrowers. This episode explores the entrepreneurial journey behind that mission. From Mortgage Veteran to Industry Innovator Brent Houston’s career spans three decades of leadership across mortgage banking operations, asset management, and portfolio lending. His background includes launching and managing complex lending operations, building offshore operational teams to drive scale and efficiency, and implementing technology-driven solutions that improve profitability without sacrificing risk management. As COO of ARDRI, Brent now oversees operations with a focus on: • Leveraging artificial intelligence to streamline lending workflows • Using data analytics to enhance decision-making and transparency • Automating manual processes that slow down mortgage production • Building scalable infrastructure for broker and investor growth In this conversation, Brent shares how ARDRI is positioned to transform the Non-QM and Business Purpose lending sector by removing friction and simplifying processes for mortgage brokers and their clients. Technology, Efficiency, and the Future of Non-QM Non-QM lending has grown significantly as borrowers and investors seek financing solutions outside traditional agency guidelines. But complexity remains a major barrier for brokers trying to navigate investor guidelines, documentation requirements, and loan structures. Brent explains how technology is reshaping this environment. By integrating AI, automation, and intelligent workflow systems, ARDRI is working to create a lending experience that reduces operational bottlenecks while improving transparency and efficiency. The result is a platform designed to support TPO mortgage brokers, real estate investors, and underserved borrower segments that traditional lenders often struggle to accommodate. Brent also discusses how operational leadership must evolve in today’s mortgage landscape. Success is no longer just about product offerings—it’s about building systems that can scale efficiently while maintaining compliance, service, and risk discipline. Lending with Purpose At the core of Brent Houston’s leadership philosophy is a mission-driven approach to mortgage banking. By expanding access to alternative lending solutions, ARDRI aims to create new pathways to financing for borrowers and investors who are often overlooked by conventional lending models. This episode dives into: • Brent’s 30-year journey through mortgage banking and real estate • How entrepreneurial thinking drives operational innovation • Why Non-QM lending is entering a new era of technology integration • The importance of scalable systems in modern mortgage companies • How lenders can expand access to financing while maintaining risk discipline • The role of AI and automation in the future of mortgage operations For executives, loan officers, fintech innovators, and mortgage leaders looking to understand where Non-QM lending and technology-driven operations are headed, this conversation provides valuable perspective from someone actively shaping the future of the industry. Episode Sponsors TrueWork Income verification shouldn’t require juggling dozens of vendors. TrueWork consolidates all major VOIE methods into one powerful platform, helping lenders increase completion rates, reduce costs, and close loans faster with verified data. Learn more: https://www.truework.com/2026-mikedup?utm_source__c=MikedUp&utm_medium__c=Podcast-Sponsorship&utm_campaign__c=Q1-2026-MikedUp FundingShield Wire fraud and cyber threats remain major risks during mortgage closings. FundingShield provides real-time transaction-level verification and certified wire fraud protection, helping lenders prevent fraud and safeguard funds at the most critical stage of the mortgage process. Learn more: https://www.fundingshield.com

Income calculation has always been one of the biggest friction points in mortgage lending. Commission income. Variable income. Self-employed borrowers. Rental income. Part-time and multi-job scenarios. One miscalculation can derail an approval, delay a closing, or trigger a costly repurchase risk. In this episode, we sit down with Jim Carroll of Partners Bank to break down everything originators and leaders need to know about Fannie Mae’s new Income Calculator — and why it may fundamentally change how income is calculated, documented, and delivered. What Is Fannie Mae’s New Income Calculator? Fannie Mae recently introduced its enhanced Income Calculator tool designed to help lenders: • Accurately calculate complex borrower income • Improve consistency across underwriting teams • Reduce manual errors • Align income analysis directly with Selling Guide requirements • Improve loan quality and mitigate repurchase risk The tool supports multiple income types including: • Self-employed income • Rental income • Variable and commission income • Overtime and bonus income • Business ownership structures • Schedule C and K-1 scenarios The Income Calculator helps standardize the interpretation of guidelines and ensures calculations align directly with Fannie Mae policy. Jim walks us through: • How the new calculator changes workflow • Where loan officers get income wrong most often • The biggest mistakes underwriters still see • How to reduce back-and-forth between sales and ops • Why this tool improves speed AND compliance • How leaders should implement it across their teams We also discuss whether tools like this move the industry closer to automation — and how originators can use technology to strengthen files before submission = Episode Sponsors TrueWork Income verification shouldn’t require juggling dozens of vendors. TrueWork consolidates all major VOIE methods into one powerful platform, helping lenders increase completion rates, reduce costs, and close loans faster with verified data. Learn more: https://www.truework.com/2026-mikedup?utm_source__c=MikedUp&utm_medium__c=Podcast-Sponsorship&utm_campaign__c=Q1-2026-MikedUp FundingShield Wire fraud and cyber risk remain major threats at closing. FundingShield provides real-time transaction-level verification and certified wire fraud protection to safeguard funds and validate the parties and documents involved in every mortgage transaction. Learn more: https://www.fundingshield.com

In this episode of The Mike’d Up Show, we sit down with Joseph V. Scorese — nationwide direct private lender, senior account executive at Park Place Finance, real estate investor, educator, and host of the Creative BRRRR Strategies Podcast. Joe has funded over $100 million in DSCR, fix-and-flip, and asset-based loans — and he’s doing 35–50 units per month in a market where most loan officers are still trying to “figure out” non-QM. But here’s what makes this conversation different: This isn’t just about products. It’s about positioning. It’s about systems. It’s about staying in your lane — and dominating it. Joe breaks down: • The transition from agency lending to asset-based DSCR • Why specializing beats being “everything to everyone” • How he built a nationwide presence while focusing regionally • The real reason his email marketing gets a 42% open rate • Guerrilla networking vs. traditional real estate agent prospecting • Scaling through systems, social media, and invisible support teams • AI appraisals and the future of non-QM lending • Why most loan officers quit too early — and how to outlast everyone Joe’s philosophy is simple: Stay in your lane. Master it. Outlast the competition. From forensic accountant at Bank of New York to real estate investor with a 14-building portfolio, Joe has built a machine around content, education, podcasting, and relentless in-person networking. His approach to DSCR lending isn’t transactional — it’s strategic and systemized. If you’re a loan officer looking to scale in non-QM… If you’re a broker wondering how to dominate DSCR… If you’re a leader trying to build production through niche focus… This episode is your blueprint. Episode Sponsors TrueWork Income verification shouldn’t require 20 vendors and hours of back-and-forth. TrueWork consolidates all major VOIE methods into one platform — helping lenders reduce costs, increase completion rates, and close faster. Learn more: https://www.truework.com/2026-mikedup?utm_source__c=MikedUp&utm_medium__c=Podcast-Sponsorship&utm_campaign__c=Q1-2026-MikedUp FundingShield Wire fraud and cyber risk are real threats in mortgage closings. FundingShield provides real-time transaction-level verification and certified wire fraud protection to safeguard your closings and protect your bottom line. Learn more: https://www.fundingshield.com

In this episode of Miked Up, we sit down with Adam Mason, President of Gershman Mortgage’s Residential Division, for a powerful conversation on what it really takes to build a mortgage company that lasts. Titled “Mortgage Across Decades,” this episode explores how a generational independent mortgage bank stays competitive, profitable, and culturally strong in an industry defined by cycles, regulation, and rapid change. Adam’s journey is anything but typical. Trained as a real estate attorney, he joined Gershman Mortgage during the height of post-Dodd-Frank regulatory overhaul. What began as an in-house legal and compliance role quickly evolved into executive leadership. Within a few years, Adam transitioned from General Counsel to Chief Operating Officer, and ultimately to President—bringing with him a disciplined understanding of compliance, structure, and long-term strategic thinking. Gershman Mortgage, founded in 1955, has built a reputation as a stable, respected regional lender with deep Midwest roots. In an era where many legacy names have disappeared, Gershman has not only survived—it has thrived. In this conversation, Adam shares how a company with over 70 years of history continues to evolve without losing its identity. Key themes we explore: • Why legacy is not a constraint—but a catalyst for growth • How empowering subject-matter experts creates stronger leadership • The difference between collecting feedback and taking action • Why local “zip code dominance” still matters in a digital age • The balance between data-driven decisions and executive instinct • How leadership changes when you move from transactional thinking to relationship-driven culture Adam also discusses the importance of people over product. In his words, success at Gershman has never been about a single program, technology, or marketing tactic. It has always been about investing in talent, protecting culture, and giving employees the professional autonomy to own their roles. As a former athlete and now father of three, Adam shares how parenting shaped his leadership philosophy—teaching him that communication, empathy, and understanding personality differences are just as important in business as they are at home. We also examine the evolution of data in mortgage banking. From early business intelligence dashboards to today’s AI-driven analytics, Adam provides insight into how executives must avoid “analysis paralysis” and still trust informed instinct when making decisions. If you are a mortgage executive, branch manager, loan officer, fintech founder, or simply someone interested in how sustainable leadership is built inside independent mortgage banks, this conversation offers real-world perspective grounded in experience—not hype. This episode is proudly sponsored by: TrueWork Income verification built for modern lenders. TrueWork simplifies VOIE by combining multiple verification methods into a single platform, helping lenders reduce costs and improve completion rates. https://www.truework.com/2026-mikedup?utm_source__c=MikedUp&utm_medium__c=Podcast-Sponsorship&utm_campaign__c=Q1-2026-MikedUp FundingShield Real-time wire fraud prevention and closing risk management. FundingShield protects lenders and investors from cyber fraud and validates closing parties and documents before funds move. https://www.fundingshield.com

In this episode, Jeremy Davis, President of Mortgage at Southern Bancorp, breaks down why the future of customer acquisition in lending is built on connection first and conversion second. As the leader of the mortgage division for one of the nation’s oldest and largest Community Development Financial Institutions (CDFIs), Jeremy is redefining how lenders expand responsibly while staying grounded in mission. Southern Bancorp hired Jeremy following a nationwide search, tasking him with expanding its mortgage footprint across the South and Mid-South, with a particular focus on serving Black and Hispanic homebuyers. The goal is clear: help close the nearly 30-point homeownership gap minority households face compared to white households. But this isn’t about headlines. It’s about execution. Jeremy brings more than 20 years of mortgage and financial equity experience to the role. Before Southern Bancorp, he served as President and CEO of InQlusion Mortgage Capital, a diversity-focused home lending company operating across the Southeast. He also led mortgage operations at FirstBank, where his team earned the 2020 National Mortgage Bankers Association Diversity & Inclusion Award for market outreach strategies promoting fair lending and minority housing access. In this conversation, Jeremy explains how acquisition in today’s mortgage market cannot rely solely on rates, incentives, or ad spend. Instead, it requires: • Deep community presence • Responsible and affordable lending structures • First-time homebuyer education • Cultural competency within lending teams • Long-term trust over short-term transactions Southern Bancorp operates as a standalone mortgage division under a broader CDFI structure that balances mission and margin. The organization includes a bank holding company, a community development bank, and a nonprofit loan fund—all working together to expand economic opportunity. Jeremy discusses how this structure allows for disciplined growth while maintaining strong underwriting standards and financial sustainability. This episode explores how community development banking intersects with modern acquisition strategy, why trust is now a competitive advantage, and how lenders can grow without abandoning purpose. For leaders navigating purchase-heavy markets, underserved communities, and tightening margins, Jeremy offers a clear message: connection is not a soft metric—it’s the foundation of sustainable growth. Our Sponsors Polly https://www.polly.io Polly is a modern mortgage capital markets platform that helps lenders optimize pricing, automate rate lock workflows, and improve margin control through data-driven execution. Floify https://www.floify.com Floify is a point-of-sale and loan origination workflow platform that streamlines borrower document collection, communication, and loan processing from application to closing. Truework https://www.truework.com Truework provides automated income and employment verification, helping lenders reduce friction, accelerate underwriting, and improve borrower experience. FundingShield https://www.fundingshield.com FundingShield protects lenders from wire fraud and closing risk by validating transactions, ensuring clean funding, and safeguarding the mortgage closing process.

Ed Powell, SVP & Licensed Regional Manager, Angel Oak Solutions | NMLS #407491 Customer acquisition in today’s mortgage market is no longer about volume alone—it’s about precision, trust, and meeting borrowers where they actually are. In this episode, we sit down with Ed Powell, Senior Vice President and Licensed Regional Manager at Angel Oak Solutions, to unpack what consumer direct lending really looks like when it’s done right. Licensed across more than 25 states, Ed Powell has built a reputation for helping borrowers navigate complex financial situations with clarity and confidence. His approach centers on understanding the full picture of each client’s circumstances and aligning them with mortgage solutions that are realistic, responsible, and sustainable. In a market where many consumers believe homeownership is out of reach, Ed and his team focus on expanding access through thoughtful product design and disciplined execution. Throughout the conversation, Ed shares how Angel Oak’s consumer direct strategy prioritizes long-term relationships over short-term transactions. By offering both traditional loan products and a robust portfolio suite of alternative programs, his team is able to serve borrowers who don’t always fit inside conventional lending boxes—without compromising on risk management or service quality. This includes self-employed borrowers, credit-challenged consumers, and those navigating non-traditional income structures. We also explore how trust plays a critical role in consumer direct lending. Ed explains why clear communication, realistic expectations, and consistent follow-through are the real drivers of referral-based growth. Many Angel Oak clients don’t just close loans—they become advocates, referring friends and colleagues because of the experience they received. This episode goes beyond surface-level marketing tactics and dives into what actually converts in today’s environment: listening, advising, and delivering outcomes that align with borrower goals. Whether you’re a lender looking to strengthen your consumer direct channel or an industry leader focused on sustainable growth, this conversation offers practical insight into customer acquisition that works in real life—not just on a slide deck. Sponsors Polly Polly is a next-generation capital markets technology platform that modernizes pricing, lock, and hedging workflows for mortgage lenders. https://www.polly.io Floify Floify provides a secure, point-of-sale solution that improves the loan application experience for borrowers and increases efficiency for lenders. https://www.floify.com TrueWork TrueWork delivers fast, accurate income and employment verification to help lenders reduce friction and close loans with confidence. https://www.truework.com FundingShield FundingShield protects lenders from wire fraud, payoff fraud, and title risk through real-time transaction validation and compliance tools. https://www.fundingshield.com

In this episode, we sit down with Eddy Perez, CMB, Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Equity Prime Mortgage (EPM), for a direct and timely conversation about leadership, accountability, and what it will take to win in the mortgage industry as we move toward 2026. This is not a discussion about surviving the market—it’s about eliminating excuses, building durable businesses, and leading with clarity when conditions get harder, not easier. Based in Atlanta, Georgia, Eddy oversees all core functions at EPM, including operations, sales, revenue, marketing, compliance, and technology. As co-founder of Equity Prime Mortgage, he has helped build the company into one of the industry’s most respected independent mortgage platforms. EPM has been recognized on the Inc. 5000 list, reflecting its sustained growth and operational discipline in an industry defined by cycles and volatility. Eddy’s career spans nearly every phase of modern mortgage banking. Prior to co-founding EPM in 2008, he operated the top-producing office at Global Mortgage, Inc., gaining firsthand experience in what drives performance at the branch level. That foundation shaped his leadership philosophy: results come from structure, accountability, and people who take ownership of outcomes. A defining milestone in Eddy’s career was earning the Certified Mortgage Banker (CMB) designation in 2014—one of the most rigorous and respected credentials in the industry. Beyond his company leadership, Eddy plays a significant role in shaping the future of mortgage banking at a national level. He serves as Chairman of MORPAC, sits on the Board of Directors for the Mortgage Bankers Association (MBA), participates as a panelist in the MBA Future Leaders Program, and is Co-Chair of the MBA Affordable Housing Council, where he helps drive meaningful progress around access, sustainability, and long-term housing solutions. Eddy has been recognized as one of the industry’s most influential voices, including being named to National Mortgage Professional Magazine’s “40 Most Influential Mortgage Professionals Under 40.” Through his leadership, advocacy, and public commentary—including his ongoing vlog at https://www.eddygperezjr.com—he consistently challenges leaders to confront reality, stop blaming the market, and build organizations that perform regardless of conditions. In this episode, Eddy shares unfiltered insight on where the industry is headed, what leaders must do now to prepare for the next cycle, and why clarity—not optimism—is the most valuable currency heading into 2026. This conversation is essential for mortgage executives, branch leaders, and originators who are ready to move past excuses and take control of their future. EPISODE SPONSORS Polly — https://polly.ioPolly is a capital markets technology platform that helps lenders optimize pricing, manage margin, and execute loans efficiently with real-time accuracy. Floify — https://floify.comFloify delivers a borrower-focused point-of-sale solution that simplifies document collection, communication, and workflow from application through closing. TrueWork — https://truework.comTrueWork provides fast, secure income and employment verification to reduce friction, improve accuracy, and speed up loan decisions. FundingShield — https://fundingshield.comFundingShield protects lenders and borrowers from wire fraud and transaction risk with real-time verification and closing protection technology.

In this episode, we sit down with Erin Dee, Chief Operating Officer at InterLinc Mortgage, to talk about what it really takes to scale revenue in today’s mortgage environment—and why strong teams and disciplined operations matter more than ever. With more than 20 years of mortgage industry experience, Erin has built a reputation as an operator who knows how to turn complexity into clarity. Her career spans nearly every corner of the business, including underwriting, operations, technology, capital markets, compliance, quality control, and executive leadership. That breadth of experience gives her a rare, end-to-end view of how mortgage organizations actually perform—and where they break down when growth outpaces structure. Before joining InterLinc Mortgage, Erin served as Chief Operating Officer at LoanPeople, Chief Strategy Officer at Thrive Mortgage, and Chief Operating Officer at Infinity Mortgage Holdings, where she managed multi-department organizations and led initiatives that improved efficiency, accountability, and customer outcomes. She has also played a critical role in helping build and scale independent mortgage banks from the ground up, giving her firsthand insight into what sustainable growth really requires. Since joining InterLinc Mortgage, Erin has hit the ground running. In just a few months, she has already led efforts to improve operational turn times across processing, underwriting, and closing, helping teams deliver loans more efficiently without sacrificing quality. She is also spearheading updates to corporate operational procedures to ensure the company’s infrastructure is aligned with long-term growth goals. These changes are designed not just to improve speed, but to create consistency, reduce friction, and support both frontline teams and borrowers throughout the loan process. Erin’s leadership style is rooted in clarity, accountability, and people-first execution. Her ability to quickly integrate into InterLinc’s culture has strengthened team morale and reinforced a collaborative environment where performance and support go hand in hand. It’s a reminder that scaling revenue isn’t just about volume—it’s about building systems and teams that can perform under pressure, market shifts, and continued growth. Beyond her role at InterLinc, Erin is a recognized industry leader. She currently serves as Secretary and Treasurer of the Texas Mortgage Bankers Association (TMBA) and is the incoming Vice President for the 2024–2025 term. She is also a frequent guest on respected industry platforms including The Mortgage Collaborative, Lykken on Lending, and The Connect with TSAHC, where she shares insights on leadership, operations, and the future of mortgage banking. In this conversation, Erin breaks down how strong operations fuel revenue growth, why leadership matters most during periods of change, and how mortgage companies can build teams that perform consistently—not just when markets are easy. This episode is essential listening for mortgage executives, operations leaders, and anyone responsible for scaling people, process, and performance in a demanding industry. EPISODE SPONSORS Polly — https://polly.io Polly is a capital markets technology platform that helps lenders optimize pricing, manage margin, and execute loans efficiently in real time. Floify — https://floify.com Floify provides a borrower-focused point-of-sale solution that streamlines document collection, communication, and workflow from application through closing. TrueWork — https://truework.com TrueWork delivers fast, secure income and employment verification, helping lenders reduce friction and accelerate loan decisions. FundingShield — https://fundingshield.com FundingShield protects lenders and borrowers from wire fraud and transaction risk with real-time verification and closing protection technology.

In this episode, we sit down with S. John Murray, a mortgage professional whose career spans more than four decadesand reflects a rare combination of longevity, discipline, and deep commitment to people over transactions. With over 41 years in mortgage banking and more than 10,630 families served, John’s work represents what long-term success in lending actually looks like when it’s built on trust, consistency, and community impact. John specializes in mortgage planning as a tool for long-term wealth building, particularly through real estate. Rather than focusing on short-term wins, his approach centers on helping clients understand how financing decisions fit into their broader financial lives. From first-time homebuyers taking their first step into ownership to experienced real estate investors managing complex portfolios, John’s guidance is rooted in education, clarity, and strategy. As a Certified Mortgage Planning Specialist (CMPS), John brings a planning-first mindset to every conversation. He helps clients evaluate financing options based not just on today’s rate environment, but on long-term goals, cash flow, equity growth, and overall financial health. His deep experience in jumbo mortgages and advanced financing structures allows him to support high-net-worth borrowers while still maintaining the same care and attention he gives to every client. A graduate of the University of Michigan with a degree in economics, John leverages his academic foundation to help clients better understand market cycles, interest rate movements, and timing decisions. That perspective has proven especially valuable in volatile markets, where confidence and clarity matter more than ever. John’s ability to translate economic trends into practical advice is one of the reasons clients continue to rely on him year after year. Throughout this conversation, we explore what it means to build a career that lasts in mortgage lending. John shares insights on maintaining relevance through changing market cycles, why consistency matters more than volume, and how strong community relationships create durable businesses. We also discuss how mortgage professionals can better serve clients by shifting from a transactional mindset to a planning-based approach that builds trust over time. This episode is a reminder that success in mortgage banking isn’t just about production numbers. It’s about showing up, doing the work, and serving people well—year after year, market after market. If you’re a mortgage professional looking to build a sustainable career, or a consumer interested in making smarter long-term financing decisions, this conversation offers perspective that only experience can provide. EPISODE SPONSORS Polly — https://polly.ioPolly is a capital markets technology platform that helps lenders optimize pricing, manage margin, and execute loans more efficiently in real time. Floify — https://floify.comFloify is a mortgage point-of-sale solution that streamlines borrower communication, document collection, and workflow from application to close. TrueWork — https://truework.comTrueWork provides fast, secure income and employment verification, helping lenders reduce friction and speed up loan approvals. FundingShield — https://fundingshield.comFundingShield protects lenders, borrowers, and settlement agents from wire fraud and transaction risk through real-time verification and closing protection.