The Financial Wellbeing Podcast

Episode 66 – The Biology of Happiness Can we increase our wellbeing through a biology lesson? In this episode Chris, David and Producer Tommo explore the science behind the chemicals in our brains responsible for happiness. With plenty of takeaways on sensible ways to increase our wellbeing, a Bage’s Bias and a special little guest in the #tightasstommo segment, it is easier than ever to find a little happiness with The Financial Wellbeing Podcast! Welcomes and Introductions David shares some great news about his novel, Producer Tommo adds to his introduction list and Chris thinks he has bagged a Guinness World Record! Click on this link for more information on the IFW – the Institute for financial advisors and others to help make the world a happier place through financial wellbeing. What is this podcast all about Can we increase our financial wellbeing through biology? The guys take a look at four chemicals in our brain that are the most responsible for happiness and explore some ideas on how we can increase their effectiveness. Bage’s Biases Every episode, Behavioral Finance expert, Neil Bage is going to be giving us his money behavioral tip. Exploring and thinking a little bit about the behavioral traits we have towards money can inform us, so we can make better money decisions going forward.– Link to Episode 36 – Understanding our attitude to risk– Link to Episode 21 – Financial capability– Link to BeIQ | Beam App This episode – Confidence TightAssTommo Has #tightasstommo taken over Producer Tommo’s life? How to save rocket (but do we mean the salad kind or the explosive kind?!) A special little guest joins the podcast Click on this link to visit the Nimber.com website Today’s Topic – The Biology of Happiness Catherine Morgan – a financial coach and friend of the podcast, inspired this episode. She is a board member on the IFW, a real innovator in helping people to understand their relationship to money. Click here for a link to the Bananatreelog website and here for a link to the Twitter profile We are looking for a more permanent solution to happiness than a few #lockdownlibations! Endorphin – from exercise. Can relieve stress and pain (can be addictive in excess)Dopamine – from getting what you desire. Can help motivate youSerotonin – from when we are admired or respectedOxytocin – from physical and social contact. Can help build and sustain relationships Word of warning – Framing Bias (have a listen to Episode 65, at 3.36 Neil Bage explains what Framing Bias is) We need to be careful when it comes to language around these chemicals. Be clear about what makes us happy – is is different for each person and we have individual needs. Intrinsic and Extrinsic motivations (have a listen to Episode 42 with Tim Kasser for more details) Intrinsic = we do it because we want to do it / creates wellbeingExtrinsic = we do it for someone else, such as to please or impress someone / has no effect on our wellbeing Some ideas on what can we do to get these chemicals flowing The five parts to overall wellbeing; Career WellbeingSocial WellbeingFinancial WellbeingPhysical WellbeingCommunity Wellbeing Money is a tool to bring about happiness, focusing on money in itself will actually reduce our wellbeing.Producer Tommo What do these chemicals mean from a financial point of view? Serotonin and hallucinogenic drugs – don’t do drugs kids! The importance of finding sensible ways to increase overall wellbeing. The five areas of wellbeing need to be balanded with each other. Conclusions from the guys Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David 0:14 Hello, everybody, and welcome to another one in our series of financial wellbeing podcasts. My name is David Lloyd, I’m a writer and actor and podcaster. General bon vivant, man about town. Well man about village actually, Backwell where I live, where also lives, the kind of prime creator of this podcast, Chris Budd, Chris hello Chris 0:36 How are we doing David? Currently I am the man about my front room, with lockdown, that’s about as far as I can take it I reckon. So yeah, we’ve got the Financial Wellbeing Book, which I wrote a few years ago now. And the Initiative of Financial Wellbeing, the Institute for financial advisors and others to help make the world a happier place. So come and check that out everybody because it is doing very interesting things at the moment during this lockdown period. David 1:00 And Tommo, who the hell are you? Producer Tommo 1:03 Every week. All right, let’s see, see how long my list is doing. As you two have put a great few together. So primarily, I am a director and Chartered Financial Planner at Ovation Finance. I’m also a director at the Initiative of Financial Wellbeing and also a very busy father, who is enjoying lockdown with a toddler. Thank goodness for the sunshine at the moment. David 1:35 Fantastic. And you’re also my financial advisor Tom, and a very good one you are too and a very, very lovely man you are too, I just want to put that out there. Producer Tommo 1:43 Bless you. I’ll tell you what, it’s another check in the post. I, this is’nt very good money saving tips from me I’ll tell you. This is costing me a fortune. David 1:52 Excellent. Right, what’s on today’s podcast, Chris? Chris 1:55 Today we are going to look at the four chemicals in our brain that are most responsible for happiness. We are going to have a little chat about what they are and how we might be able to increase their effectiveness. David 2:10 Interesting, now before we come on to that actually I’ve got a bit of news. I know sometimes we like to come up with a bit of personal news. As, as you know, you certainly know Chris, and I think I’ve made reference to it over the years in the podcast. I have been writing the novel. I’m nowhere near as prolific as you, Chris, but I’ve been doing other writing stuff as well. But yesterday, I managed to type those two marvelous words, The End, which was absolutely fantastic,. It’s only the 1st draft, I’m going to have to go back and look at it again and rework bits of it. But I finally got to almost three years from when I first started it. So I have to confess I shed a little tear. Chris 2:47 Yeah, big moment, fantastic well done. And now the fun bit begins, I think, which is the editing and getting it all down first time around is one thing, but I really like going back over the words and into the sentences. As Neil Gaiman put it – getting down amongst the words. Unknown Speaker 3:02 Exactly, no, I enjoy that. And I have to say I’ve been doing some of that has been going along. It’s been so long since I started it, you know, I need to go back now and look at the thing. When I started it, I didn’t even know how it’s gonna finish. So. Chris 3:15 Do you now? David 3:16 I do now yes! I need to, so I need to go back and just make sure that it all makes sense. Anyway, that’s my little bit of news. Chris 3:23 I have some some similar views in a way, that I also have finished the third draft of my of my novel that we’re working on for a few years. And I think I broke a new record. I think I’m the proud owner of the Guinness Book of Records, I sent off my draft to some literary agents last Wednesday. And about 6:30 in the evening, and I got my first rejection at 8:30 The next morning. David 3:47 That’s quick work. Chris 3:50 I reckon I deserve some sort of reward for that. I’m not quite sure what? Producer Tommo 3:53 I love the way you’re finding the positives in such a quick rejection. Chris 3:58 I’ve had a lot of rejections David 3:59 Well, this is part and parcel of being a writer and it comes back to this. I’m sure I’ve used this expression in the podcast in other context before. A no, is just a deferred yes. You always need to remember that. So in order to get the yes, you have to keep asking the question. Chris 4:18 Yeah, quite. There is a genuine wellbeing bit here, because I was talking about this with Susie. I have two novels, published, self published. And so I’ve got an awful lot of rejection slips. But they don’t actually make a difference to me anymore. Because I’m not writing to be heard. Particularly. I’m not writing to make money. I know that I’ll have, I don’t know 50, 60, 100, 200 people will read a book. Well 200 will be fantastic. But even if it just 10 that’s made it worthwhile. It’s the fun of writing it I write because I can’t not write. And that’s why I do it. So actually, the rejection slips are not genuinely that big a deal. Having said that a five movie deal would be nice. I’m not going to turn it down. David 4:57 Well, anyway, well good luck with yours, and we’ll see what happens with mine and I will keep you all informed. Right then, let’s move on. Let’s have the first of our regular features. Well I say a regular feature, it’s a relatively new feature. It’s where we get Neil Bage, an old friend of the podcast to come up with one of the Bages Behavioral Biases, what have you got fo us this week Chris? Chris 5:22 This week, Neil’s going to talk about confidence. Here we go. Neil Bage 5:26 Now, the first bias I’d like to talk about today is over confidence or more to the point confidence. Now, I’m pretty confident that everybody listening to this podcast knows what confidence is. That sometimes it’s easy to spot. But most of the time, it’s really well hidden, disguised in just who we are. We aren’t really equipped with the ability to just look at someone without any degree of interaction and gauge how confident or not they are. We often confuse bravado, the extrovert with confidence and the quiet person, the introverts with under confidence, and that simply isn’t a true reflection of people and their abilities. An extrovert at a party, you know, the person dancing and joking around with everyon,e may appear very confident. But that doesn’t necessarily map across to that person’s confidence when it comes to making financial decisions. Just like risk taking, which is domain specific. Confidence could also be domain specific. But how do we measure confidence? Well, we measure it by looking at the difference between a person’s subjective knowledge, what they think they know, and a person’s objective knowledge, which is what they really do know. And understanding the difference between the two is absolutely crucial in understanding whether a person is under confident, or whether a person is overconfident. Now we often hear over confidence being talked about a lot in relation to investment decision making. But under confidence can be just as problematic when people are trying to make important decisions. People who are exhibiting under competence have low subjective knowledge. In other words, they think they know a little, but actually they have high objective knowledge. In other words, they know a lot. And this means that when they are being asked to use that underlying knowledge, they will feel as if it’s not good enough, or in the best case scenario, they seek the help of an advisor. In the worst case, they put off making a decision altogether, purely based on the fact that they believe they haven’t got the right skills to make the decision. And when we talk about this in relation to overconfidence, people who have high subjective knowledge, they think they know a lot, but they have low objective knowledge, they actually know very little, it’s easy to see how, in certain instances, we can come unstuck pretty quick. So accepting what you know, accepting, don’t know, means that we can make decisions with the right level of confidence, which should hopefully lead to the right outcome for you. David 8:12 So if I can sum that up. We’ve got to be wary about being overconfident because the danger is that we will attempt to do things actually, we’re not able to do but also we’ve got to be careful about being under confident because we won’t atempt to do things which we are well capable of achieving. Chris 8:29 Yeah , that’s really good. And in money terms, you might get people who say I’m not very good with money. You know, you hear that quite a lot. Well, what does it actually mean? It’s worth exploring that a little bit by thinking about how you actually make money decisions. So Neil and I are doing some, a series of webinars together or course really its x3 90 minute webinars. And listening to some of the stuff that he comes up with on this is just absolutely fascinating. They’re probably already done by the time this podcast comes out. But if anybody wants to have a listen to them, and download them later, they can do , just get in touch with us. Producer Tommo 9:02 If you don’t mind me jumping in, David, but you’re going to experience this, we’re actually, we’ve actually teamed up with Neil. And he’s put together a fantastic app, and background back office system for us to link in with clients. And it all goes into some of these behavioral traits that we have. And confidence is one of them. So it actually tests whether you are somebody who tends to be quite overconfident or under confident. Now and see with that information, we as advisors talking to talking to our clients such as you, David, can really understand where you’re coming from when you make decisions, and ensure that you know, ultimately, the information we’re talking about is pitched at the right level. So yeah, fascinating stuff. It’s just a whole deep world you can go into but I think it’s going to be massive for really understanding ourselves. David 9:48 Well, I’ve got some big financial decisions coming up Tommo. So I look forward very much to go through those with you. Right, okay, let’s move on now to our next feature. Tight Ass Tommo. Sometimes I just let this pass as to where it came from sometimes I feel its important that we just remind ourselves how this feature came about. Tommo was taking Chris and another colleague out for lunch. He said, Don’t worry my treat, I’ll pay. He steared them towards a particular meal on the menu. And it turned out this was the meal, for which he had a free voucher. And therefore the legend of TightAssTommo was born. Before we come on to the master himself. Chris, have you got one for us this week? Chris 10:25 I do David. Tommo has this rather taken over your life? Producer Tommo 10:30 It’s remarkable. I mean, Chris will know this, in our circles we do a morning, its call the morning commute and it’s donew through at group called NextGen Planners, great group, if you’re a planner listening to this, check them out, get involved. I do a slot a couple of days a week. Tight Ass Tommo, so the way it’s taken over my life as I’ve had to re-listen to all, every single episode we’ve ever done every single tip have ever done and regurgitate them. That means that nobody knows me as Tom anymore and they just know me as Tight Ass. Im not sure about that. Chris 11:05 It has the happy coincedence of being entirely true. So this works out quite well in the end. So look I’ve go one this week from Mrs B actually, from the lovely Susie, my wife. She asked me to put this one on, she is an Oncology nurse also works at the penny brohn Cancer Center, to which all the proceeds fromt he Financial Wellbeing book go. And she has a great little tip to prolong the life of your rocket. So I’m talking to saldly type rocket. Not the thing that goes whoosh up into the air rocket. So salad leaves and all this kind of stuff is great for our bodies. And that’s one of the things that, nutrition is one of the things they talk about it the Penny Brohn Centre. But the problem is that their sold in those plastic bags and it gets all sweaty and goes off pretty quickly. So what she does, she puts she puts it in a tub plastic tub with a sheet of kitchen roll underneath and on top. And it stops the rocket from going off and makes it last many times longer. David 11:58 Well, that’s a good tip. And I will do that one. Nothing more annoying when your salad in a bag going a bit sort of sticky and smelly and off in that way. So I will take her up on that one. Tommo what’s yours? Producer Tommo 12:09 Well, as you guys won’t know, as we were setting this all up today, and having a chinwag. I reminded myself that I didn’t have one, so I just furiously did some googling. No, I know where to look! Now I, reminded me actually that I just forgotton to note it down. I came across a website called nimber.com. Thats N I M, for Mike, B E R dot com, show notes, etc. And I thought this really fed into some of the stuff we’ve talked about before and what they try and do, is you have people who basically. It’s a delivery service, but the people who are doing the deliveries are doing it because they’re going in that direction already. So it might be that they’re on their commute. And they happen to be going . . . Producer Tommo 13:05 Hang on a second this. This is exciting. I got a cup of tea coming in here. Chris 13:13 And a biscuit? Producer Tommo 13:14 Scones Chris 13:15 Scones! David 13:18 Where’s mine? Producer Tommo 13:20 Come and say hello Toby. You going to come and say hello to all of our listeners? Toby 13:23 Hello, my name’s Toby Chris 13:28 Hello, Toby. David 13:29 Hello Toby, good to see you. Chris 13:32 How are you Toby? Toby 13:34 Good Chris 13:35 What did you have for breakfast? Toby 13:38 Wheetabix Chris 13:39 Yum David 13:40 One or two? Chris 13:44 Two David 13:44 Woah, your a growing lad arnt you! Producer Tommo 13:47 And what are you doing now? Toby 13:49 It’s just time for snacks David 13:53 Fantastic Producer Tommo 13:54 You’re gonna go and have your snack. Toby 13:55 Bye David 13:55 Bye Toby Chris 14:02 We have a new section of the podcast, we have a new star. Toby’s breakfast tips Producer Tommo 14:09 Far more interesting than his dad. Genuinly I got a cup of tea and some scones, homemade by the two of them. Chris 14:17 That’s staying in, thats gold dust that is! Producer Tommo 14:20 Absolutely. So I am completely off my train of thought. Producer Tommo 14:23 You were telling us about this app where people are going out to deliver Producer Tommo 14:30 If you want to send something you go on the website, and you put such and such a location and those that are deliverers on the service, pick that up, you know and try and go in that direction. I think the whole aim is to just try and cut down on travel costs and emissions and all that sort of thing because ultimately if your going in that direction, why not deliver as well. So I thought it was a very interesting service. So go check it out. I’ll let you go check it out. Yeah, nimber.com David 15:00 Excellent. What a good idea. I’m intregued by that, I shall check that out after we’re finished doing this recording. Right, let’s move on to the main event. Chris, why don’t you introduce our subject today? Chris 15:11 Okay, David, thank you. So there’s a couple of friends of the podcast, there’s one very good friend of the podcast called Catherine Morgan, who is a financial coach. She’s also a fellow board member on the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing. She’s a real innovator in the field of helping people to better understand their relationship to money, and get better financial wellbeing outcomes. So Catherine sent me a really interesting and funky looking infographic from a website called banana tree log.com, thats banana tree log.com. And I had a little look at it, it turns out, it’s just a small blogging website from a gentleman called Anthony Khow, Khow in Canada, who suffers from anxiety, and has set up this little website just for his own interest. So he’s not a well known person, he doesn’t have a big business or anything like that. He’s just the guy who set up a website. But he does possess fantastic infographic and communication skills. On Twitter, he is at banana tree log. And as I say, that website is banana tree log.com. And I was so inspired by what he put together, that I thought we have a chat about some of his stuff, which is all around the biology of happiness, what chemicals in our body create feelings of well being and what we can do to increase those chemicals? David 16:28 Well, I always find alcohol works for me! I’m not sure if that’s a chemical or not. Chris 16:33 I think we’re looking for a more permanent solution. David 16:37 Certainly in lockdown I am doing my best to increase the amount of that I’ve got in my body Chris 16:43 So, let’s go through these four chemicals. There are four chemicals in the brain, which are known as the happy chemicals. I thought we might introduce one or two each. So David, did you want to go first with endorphin? David 16:55 Yeah, now I know a bit about endorphin, it’s the chemical you get from exercise. It relieves stress and pain and you can get a mild high but of course, this also makes it a bit dangerous to have in excess because it can be addictive. Producer Tommo 17:10 I’ve got back into running at the start of the year. It’s actually quite dangerous for me now. I’m still going out, but my knee is not doing particularly well. But I can’t help but going out and getting those endorphin kicks . . . David 17:23 Well I’m the same, I started taking it running again. And I’m a bit like you I never look forward to doing it. Particularly I never particularly enjoy doing it while I’m doing it. But I always feel great afterwards. Producer Tommo 17:34 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I’ve got another quite addictive one of these – dopamine. And in very simple terms, this is known as the pleasure chemical. Things that we can do to get it include things, achieving things. You know, getting what you desire, no matter how small. So yeah, the pleasure chemical. Chris 17:57 And there is serotonin, which is sometimes called leadership chemical, because we get seratonin when we are admired or respected. David 18:05 And then there’s good old oxytocin, the chemical of love. So cool because it’s released during physical and social contact. Chris 18:14 I really didn’t like the way you did that. David 18:18 Well, listen, I am a man who is in lockdown and separated from his partner. Chris 18:23 No, no, no more information. We’ll get into each of these chemicals one at a time. But a little word of warning before we do, we know from some of the stuff that Neil Bage was talking about, like framing, that is easy to frame language in a certain way to get a certain outcome. So, when doing some reading around the subject I quickly realized we are going to have to be careful with our language. David 18:47 In what way? Chris 18:48 Well, let’s take dopamine, for example. We’re coming at this chemical in terms of happiness. So we might describe dopamine is a chemical that enables learning and pleasure. We might say that too much can lead to addiction, and not enough can lead to low self esteem and procrastination. But when I was reading about this, I read other articles calling dopamine, the goal achieving chemical. That it’s the chemical that creates great leaders. And that feels a little presumptuous to me. Like it sets up being a great thing for someone to achieve and that might make a person think that they need to chase dopamine. Producer Tommo 19:24 That means, I suggest that we need to make sure we are clear about what makes us happy. Each person, you know, it’s very different, and will have their own their own needs. Which comes back to the cornerstone of financial planning and the achievable intrinsic motivation. David 19:40 I know we’ve covered that before havn’t we. Remind us what that means Tommo. Producer Tommo 19:44 We heard first from Professor Tim Kasser all the way back in Episode 42. There are two types of motivations or purpose. Intrinsic and extrinsic. And intrinsic motivation is one that has no real reason, we just do it because we want to. An extrinsic motivation is one we do for someone else, such as, such to impress someone or please someone. And professor Kassers research shows that if we achieve an extrinsic motivation, this has no effect on our wellbeing. If we achieve intrinsic motivation, however, this really does create wellbeing. David 20:25 And the biological explanation of that, then is that achieving an intrinsic motivation will release dopamine. Chris 20:31 Exactly, whereas achieving an external motivation will not. So it’s not just as simple to see dopamine as, for example, a way of creating great leaders. David 20:39 So could be viewed as being perhaps the other way around, find personal success, but achieve purpose, and dopamine will follow? Producer Tommo 20:50 Exactly, David. So we come back to the importance of having a clear financial plan, which aims towards those achievable, and intrinsic motivations. David 21:00 And that’ll increase our dopamine levels, which will increase our wellbeing Chris 21:04 Exactly that’s the theory. Yes. David 21:06 So is there anything else we can do? Chris 21:09 Yeah, having a daily list, a to do list and crossing things off when you get them done is a good thing to do for dopamine. Getting regular exercise. Actually, regular exercise is good for all four of the happy chemicals. It creates dopamine, its also really good for endorphins as we said. David 21:24 I thought endorphins were all about exercise? Chris 21:27 They are but it’s not just exercise. They also minimize discomfort and pain, alleviate depression, reduce stress and anxiety and boost self esteem. Producer Tommo 21:36 Oh, right, get me more of them there endorphin’s then please, sign I up! Chris 21:41 Mrs B has been doing, what’s the guy’s name? Nine o’clock every morning, Joe? What’s his name? Producer Tommo 21:45 Joe Wicks. Is she doing it for the excersise or is she doing it for Joe? Chris 21:49 Oh, controversial! No, I think he’s great. You know what I love about him actually, as I sit on the sofa and watch Mrs B doing her excersise with Luna and Ella, we all will think it’s great. But he suffers with you. I think he’s fabulous. Because he doesn’t say come on, this is easy, come on. You can tell this is actually really easy for him, but he pretends it’s hard to empathize with everybody. I think. So, yeah, chasing endorphins is a bad thing. The fitness addict for example, is, I think we all know people who can’t stop running, triathlons, etc. Producer Tommo 22:23 Yeah, we just touched on a moment ago that there is a slight addiction of desperately trying to get out there and get that hit, but not necessarily good if you run through injuries, etc. But yeah, there’s extreme addicts that I know that fitness is just consumes their life. David 22:39 Apart from physical exercise and creativity, which we’ve also touched on, is there anything else that we can do to keep our endorphin levels up? Chris 22:46 Yeah, laughter and crying produces endorphins. So emotional reaction. The really good news is eating chocolates and having sex are also very good for producing endorphines. David 22:57 As I just said, I am separated from my partner in lockdown, but I do have to say I have been eating a lot of chocolate. Chris 23:09 I’ll leave that one there I think David 23:13 OK, lets move swiftly on then! Oxcytocin, the chemical of love. Chris 23:17 Is this moving on?! This is a different type of love. This is, because oxytocin is also sometimes called the cuddle hormone, as it’s produced through physical or social contact. But it does have a negative side. For example, it can explain why people mistrust outsiders. Producer Tommo 23:36 It’s worth reminding ourselves of the five parts of overall wellbeing at this point. We’re always trying to stress on this podcast that money is just a tool to bring about happiness. Focusing on money in itself will actually reduce our wellbeing. The main area of this is social relationships, It’s a key area of wellbeing. Perhaps oxytocin explains why this why this is the case? You know being engaged with the community, which is another area wellbeing has also been shown to majorly impact our wellbeing in a positive way. So from a well being standpoint, I think we quite like oxytocin very much. David 24:14 And how can we ensure then that we have strong levels of oxytocin? Chris 24:20 We measure in physical contact, the fact that it’s linked with being in a community. Having a pet, like the one that’s currently barking outside my cabin! Giving it lots of love and cuddles, that’s been shown to lower blood pressure and increase oxcytocin. David 24:33 Yeah, I got my little dog Ruby and she’s been a great comfort for me and she is, you know, sometimes she’ll climb up on my lap and sit there and that’s certainly, I can identfy with that. Producer Tommo 24:41 Shall we bring it back to finances? David 24:44 We probably should. You don’t like it when we go all cuddly do you Tommo? You don’t like the cuddly stuff. Producer Tommo 24:50 I can kid of see the theory of it, but I do like to bring you back, to the financial element of this. David 24:57 Go on then! Producer Tommo 25:01 From a financial point of view, we need to remind ourselves, what our moeny is for. I found some really interesting ideas on a website called psycology today. Which said that ther ways to increase oxcytocin, include telling people around you that you love them. And to combine dopamine and oxcytocin, achieving things with other people. So now go back to our intrinsic motivation points. We also know that helping others is a big contributor to wellbeing. So donating either money or maybe just time to something that you can get involved with. That you can see achieving something that you believe in. And it means its something to you that is going to have a significant boost to your levels of wellbeing. It’s not just the case of giving money through the feelings of guilt. I had that experience, certainly in the winter when I actually went into work. I would walk past quite a few homeless people, and it’s terrible, a terrible situation that a lot of people find themselves in. You might give them a bit of money. But thats an assuagon guilt a lot of the time, if we can actually use our money, involving other people, involving causes that we see, you know, something being achieved that can give us a real boost, in creating a shared achievement. David 26:24 That’s very well put Tommo. So that leaves us with serotonin Chris 26:28 Yeah this is a complex one. We’re not medical experts. We’re not gonna pretend we are. But it does seem clear from, from the research that amongst other functions, serotonin helps to regulate mood, anxiety and happiness. If you take drugs like ecstasy and LSD, they cause a significant rise in serotonin levels. So this is a good chance in the podcast, I’d suggest chaps, for you to share your ecstasy and LSD stories if you like. David 26:51 Well, I don’t have an ecstasy story. But I’m quite prepared to come out and say that 46 years ago, when I was a very young man, I did dabble with LSD. I think four times. The first three times, it was absolutely fantastic. I went on a journey of the mind unlike any I’ve ever gone on before when I thought this is the most liberating thing I’ve ever done. And the fourth time I took it, it was absolutely horrible. It was the archetypal bad trip. I won’t go into the details of what it was, but it was absolutely psychologically scarring and damaging. It was, I think, probably, and I’ve had some bad things happen during my time, just about the worst experience of my life. And the one thing I would say about LSD and probably about any of those hallucinogenic drugs is that, is that any number of good trips is not worth the band trip that I had. So that’s my personal experience for LSD. Chris 27:51 Thank you for sharing that. David, I think there’s a very strong message. I mean, if it was your fourth and last . . . David 27:57 Yeah, as I say, I was nine I was 19. I’m 65 now, and I’ve never been remotely tempted to take it again. Producer Tommo 28:09 So, don’t do drugs kids Producer Tommo 28:14 It’s interesting, so those drugs are designed to tap into those particular chemicals, I’m assuming, but clearly have a huge downside. So I think this really shows the importance of thinking about sensible things that you can do, that can use these chemicals that aren’t going to be a hinderence to your health. Because that’s another area of wellbeing is the physical and mental wellbeing and we cannot lose sight of that. So . . . Chris 28:41 How the things are balanced Tommo, that’s a fantastic point. Yeah. The five areas of wellbeing overall need to be balanced with each other. It’s not one over the others and having a balanced level of serotonin is important not having massive boosts of it through, through artificial drugs. There’s a chap called Simon Young writes in the Journal of Psychiatry and Neuroscience, and he talks about how to increase your serotonin or keep it well balanced is sunlight, aerobic exercise, and as ever, good diet -foods high in tryptophan, tryptophan, such as chicken eggs, cheese, peanuts, pumpkin, sesame seeds and again, chocolate. David 28:51 Horah. So presumably if our levels are constant, social relationships are easier, which all round leads to increase wellbeing. Chris 29:29 Exactly and as research confirms that positive emotions and agreeableness foster continued relationships with others. David 29:39 Now it seems to have fallen to me in recent podcasts to summarize what we’ve learnt, but on this occasion, because he’s been absolutely on fire today, I think we should let Tommo have a go. Producer Tommo 29:49 Okay, so there four chemicals in our brains, which are thought to directly affect our wellbeing. Endorphins, serotonin, dopamine and oxytocin. Keeping these at a good level and in balance with each other, will go a long way to improving our wellbeing. Things, particularly how this or perhaps unsurprisingly, eating well and exercising regularly. So that’s our physical wellbeing. Being involved with the community, and the community wellbeing. Sharing time with loved ones, that’s the social wellbeing. And there was also this idea around achieving something and having purpose that’s career wellbeing. So you can see that financial wellbeing, I see as the sort of hub that can help give us the structure to be able to focus on these other areas in our lives, that are obviously really going to give us an increased wellbeing, because we’re getting these chemicals into our system and on a good balance. David 30:52 Brilliant. So that’s all the things that we’ve been discussing over 66 podcasts that will no doubt, continue to discuss. But that’s all for now. A big thank you to Anthony Khow at banana tree log for all of the very, very interesting information that’s prompted this discussion. Thanks very much for joining us today. And we look forward to the pleasure of your company at some point in the future, for another one of our financial wellbeing podcasts.

Episode 65 – Amy Florian on Grief, Loss & Transitions We all struggle with grief, loss and moments of transition in our lives. Grief can come from many areas, whether that be from the death of a loved one or a change in life that leads to something being left behind. Chris talks to a grief specialist Amy Florian about how we can deal with grief and be supportive to someone else dealing with loss. With another Bage’s Biases, #tightasstommo money saving tips and an update from the fast approaching IFW Conference, the guys have a longer than usual, but uplifting and informative episode for you . . . Welcomes and Introductions The Financial Wellbeing BookThe Eternal BusinessInitiative for Financial Wellbeing The first IFW Conference – 21st to 25th September 2020, click here for more details and to purchase tickets What is this podcast all about – A chat with Amy Florian, who is an expert in grief. It may sound a slightly morbid topic, but it is actually a fascinating interview.Link to Corgenius Bage’s Biases Every episode, Behavioral Finance expert Neil Bage is going to be giving us his money behavioral tip.– Link to Episode 36 – Understanding our attitude to risk– Link to Episode 21 – Financial capability– Link to BeIQ | Beam App This episode – Framing Bias Tight Ass Tommo Featuring courgettes,how to spend money, woodpeckers and some intensive financial admin! Link to JJJ Vinyl Amy Florian Interview Why is Chicago called the Windy City? Who is Amy? What is Thanatology? Grief is a much broader subject than just death. How did Amy come to advise people on how to deal with grief? Grief takes time – often a lot more time than people realise. People can be hurtful without meaning to be when it comes to comforting the bereaved. How do we approach a conversation with someone experiencing loss? Do not talk about you, you cannot fix it, it’s not your job to cheer them up Your job is to companion them wherever they are. It’s about making it about them Link to video – It’s not about the nail Why is it bad to burst into tears? Every grieving person wants to know that their loved one’s life made a difference Grief in a wider context, it is not just when somebody has died. It occurs whenever there is a break in an attachment. Every life transition triggers grief, its a period of adjustment How do you help somebody who doesn’t want to be helped? The greatest memorial we can ever build to somebody we love who dies, is to live our lives now as fully as possible enriched by their memoryRabbi Earl Grollman How do you talk to someone when you can see what the outcome might be, but do not feel close enough to reach out? Samaritans – Call 116 123 A Friend Indeed – Amy Florian How to action Clarity and Security for those we leave behind? We should all have our affairs in order as we go along, all our lives. We know that the survivors of a loved one’s death grieve with more peace and less guilt and less second guessing, if they are not required to make medical decisions for their loved ones without knowing what their loved ones want. Clarity for those we leave behind includes, if I died tomorrow, would they know I loved them? Conclusions from the guys Click here for more information about Amy Florian and Corgenius Take a look at the Corgenius You Tube channel Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David 0:29 Hello everybody and welcome to another one in our series of Financial Wellbeing podcasts. My name is David Lloyd, actor, writer, broadcaster. Once again we are in lockdown when we are doing this so we are not altogether in a room like we normally are, we were in our separate houses, having a conversation on Zoom. And I would like to introduce to the other two people who contribute to this podcast. Firstly Chris: Chris 0:54 Hello everybody. Chris Budd, I wrote the Financial Wellbeing book. I also help companies who want to sell their businesses to an Employee Ownership Trust – or I used to! Hopefully will do again when we are out of the lockdown period. I do a lot of writing about money and happiness too. David 1:10 And Tommo: Producer Tommo 1:11 Chartered Financial Planner and Director at Ovation Finance and director at the Initiative of Financial Wellbeing. Who have a conference coming up in September, so, due to Covid and lockdown, we have moved it to a virtual conference. But because of that we are actually able to increase the program and it’s going to be across a whole week. From the 21st of September to the 25th of September. Primarily geared at financial services professionals, financial planners, advisers, coaches. To enable them to get some skills to help their clients become happier not just wealthier. But the program looks absolutely brilliant, there is tonnes in there. And with it being virtual you can dip in and out, fit it around your diary, but yeah, tonnes of content. You can find out some information on this at www.initiativeforfinancialwellbeing.org.uk and there is a link to the conference in the shownotes that also includes the schedule and you are also able to buy tickets aswell. Which I feel are an absolute billy bargin for whats on offer. So yeah, go have a look, yeah really excited. David 2:12 And it will be an opportunity for you to see the faces behind this podcast as well, because we will all be there. Right. Okay, so let’s move on now. Before we do, Chris, tell us what we’re doing in the podcast today? Chris 2:25 Today, David, we have an interview that I did with a lady named Amy Florian. And Amy is a specialist on grief. Now that might sound a slightly morbid topic but I hope you’ll agree that actually she is fascinating. And I found talking to her truly uplifting and I just got so much from it, I really did so yeah really interesting interview and chat coming up. David 2:49 I’m really looking forward to that Chris really looking forward to that very interesting subject as you say. But before we do, let’s have the first of our two regular features, I say regular the first one is a relatively new one this is only the second time that we’ve done it. Bages Biases. So every episode, behavioral finance expert Neil Bage age is going to give us his money behaviour tip. Neil’s an old friend of the podcast he did episodes 36 and 21. His company Be-IQ has just launched a new app called Beam on iTunes at the moment. You can get it on Android later in the year. And Beam will help you uncover your own behavioral biases the things that often stop us from making good decisions about money. So, lets have a listen to what bias Neil has for us this episode: Neil Bage 3:36 The second bias that we’re gonna look at today is Framing Bias. So, what is Framing Bias? Framing Bias is where we make a decision based on how information is presented to us, as opposed to the facts themselves. For example, assume we were having a conversation about retirement planning. And I said, Can you retire on 70% of your current income? Now you will listen to that question you will compute the question, and you will respond based on what you’ve heard. Now I can ask that question, the other way around. And I could say to you. Do you think you could retire on a 30% reduction of your current income? And that will more likely elicit a completely different response. Why? Well, because the second question is framed in a negative way. The first question, can you retire on 70% of your current income is framed in a positive way. And as humans we have a tendency to focus our attention on negative frames, more than we do positive frames. And like Confirmation Bias, this is all about looking deeper. When it comes to processing information that we need to process in order to reach a decision. If someone tells you that a yogurt is 80% fat free, then pause and realize that it also contains 20% fat. Chris 5:05 I think framing is used in advertising, all the time. Obviously. But it’s usually used in more subtle ways in financial services to. And I think when we’re looking at money, it’s really, really important to recognize how the message is being said to you and the last point made was brilliant. If we said, Would you like yoghurts thats got 20% fat, you know, you would process that differently so when somebody is giving you a message about money, just make sure you’re hearing the reality of the whole message. That framing is is used nefariously a lot, but it can also be used accidently a lot as well. I love that tip. David 5:42 Yeah. That’s a very good one. Well now, talking about money. One of the things that we like to help you with on this podcast is to obviously increase your financial wellbeing. Primarily that’s what this is all about but also do that sometimes by spending as little money as possible and there’s one person, our Prince of Parsimony, who is the expert on this subject is Tight Ass Tommo, the other one of our regular features. But before we come on to that, I got one for you this week, actually. In the last podcast we did, I talked about the fact that I discovered that I quite enjoyed gardening. And one of the things I’ve been doing is sowing and planting my own vegetables from seed. So instead of going out and buying, I’m starting to grow things. They are only just starting to come up now and it’s really exciting. Watching little onions, cauliflowers, green beans starting to sprout. Obviously, in the fullness of time, that means that I’m not going to be spending money on buyging vegetables. Assuming that they don’t all get eaten up by caterpillars of course! Yeah, take up gardening, grow your own veg. Chris have you got anything? Chris 6:48 I do, I’m actually going to be slightly naughty because I’m going to suggest how we can spend money to be happy. Tommo forgive me for this, but there is a record shop, I don’t know what city they’re in – Loughton in Essex, called JJJ Vinyl, you can look them up on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter – JJJ Vinyl is the name for each of those. They have this thing ging where, if you give them an amount of money, they’ll send you records, simple! But, it’s their tips, their suggestions for records. Chris 7:18 Im just pausing this slightly, sorry, because I just think there’s a woodpecker on my bird feeder. How exciting is that? Sorry! Producer Tommo 7:25 Yeah, great for our listeners! David 7:29 Is it a wooden bird feeder? Is it pecking it? Chris 7:33 No it’s not! It’s getting the peanuts. How exciting! A lot of wellbeing from my bird feeders by the way. Producer Tommo 7:39 I love the fact – timestamp – when this goes out we may no longer be lockdown. We are in lockdown and you can imagine, exciting, the bar that needs to be hit for that is far lower than it was previously. David 7:53 It reminds me of it reminds me of a cartoon I saw the other day, where there’s a woman sitting on the sofa with a dog looking out the window, she turns and says to the dog. You know, it’s only recently that I’ve realized why you got so excited by somebody walked past. Chris 8:10 Sorry, my sighting of the woodpecker was a little over the top! Chris 8:16 So, JJJ Vinyl. I’m sending them a tenner every two weeks, and they send me an album, a 12″ and a 7″ because I do like my vinyl. And so they just arrived today, and I’ve never heard of this before, I’ve heard of the band, but The Mahavishnu Orchestra, Visions of the Emerald Beyond David 8:36 I actually have the album, because I got it when it first came out. John McLaughlin, incredible jazz guitarist, you’re going to absolutely love, I think. Knowing your musical tastes. I think you’ll really really like that. Some of it’s a bit out there but there’s some really really good stuff. I look forward to hear your views on it. Chris 8:55 So, i’ll let you know next podcast! JJJ Vinyl, get in touch with him, if you’re into your vinyl, send them some money and based upon your own existing collection and tastes they will send you some things that they think you’ll like. It is a very exciting thing every couple of weeks. David 9:11 I know you’re spending money Chris but actually it is for your wellbeing, and actually for a tenner if you’re getting an album, a12″ and a 7″, thats a pretty good deal. Chris 9:20 I was very happy. I’m very happy. David 9:22 Tommo what have you got for us? Producer Tommo 9:26 A little admin intensive. But I think worthwhile for many listeners out there who are employed and have workplace benefits. So, certainly during lockdown. As I said, I hope, are are out of lockdown when this comes out. But a bit more time on your hands to start thinking about the various things that you’ve got going on in your financial life. But it’s worthwhile just double checking what you, what benefits you have from your employer. And this is important from several points. Firstly, it will open your eyes up that some employers are very generous with their extra benefits that they offer to the salary, etc. It just gives you far more better understanding of what your package is worth, which could be useful if you’re a little bit disgruntled. But also, it’s a reflection, sometimes on, on, you know, an employer who actually does care about their staffs overall, personal life. And what I mean by that is firstly is having a pension plan. There will be minimums that you need to contribute and minimums that your employer will contribute. But there are often opportunities to increase that what you put in, and the employer will match it. So that’s the first one, because ultimately that could be “free money” from your employer. Quite commonly now there are life insurance schemes attached to employment so know what that is and I think quite relevant having been in a pandemic that we’re all very much aware of our own mortality. So having a look at that and seeing what your employer offers, so you might not have to buy that extra life insurance that you thought you did. There is also things like income protection that is sometimes offered. Critical illness again, quite, quite important things to focus on focuses the mind when we just come out of a pandemic. But little things as well. At Ovation we offer a health cashback scheme where if somebody goes to the dentist they are able to reclaim some cash back so little things like that. And I told you that it was a little admin intensive, but add that all up, you can get some real savings going into a pension. There’s a possibility that you could save some money on on the kind of insurance that you need. And also if there’s some cash back deals offered through your employer. Great, you can make sure that you’re, you’re making the most of those. David 11:56 Good advice Tommo and one of the things you touched on there leads us quite nicely into our interview where we are talking about, now might be a time for us to contemplate our own mortality. Chris, this interview with Amy Florian. Chris 12:10 So Amy is an American lady. She’s the CEO of Corgenius. And she is an expert amd advises on grief. She’ll tell you the story of how she got into this in the first place. She combines the best of neuroscience and psychology, and has a lively sense of humour as well. Trains professionals on how to deal with clients when they’re going through a transition in life, it’s not just about death it’s about transition in life so fascinating lady I really enjoyed this chat with Amy Florian. Chris 12:42 Amy thanks so much for joining us on this podcast. Amy Florian 12:45 Your quite welcome. Chris 12:47 Tell me, I’m always interested to know, what’s your view at the moment, where are you sitting? Amy Florian 12:51 I am sitting in my office in a suburb of Chicago, Illinois. In the United States Chris 12:58 Chicago, now is it Chicago that’s the Windy City, is that right? Amy Florian 13:02 That’s right. For, it’s actually for two reasons. Number one, there’s, it’s right on Lake Michigan a huge lake. And when the wind comes in off Lake Michigan it gets funneled between the skyscrapers, and you can walk around the skyscraper and almost get blown off your feet on a windy day so yes it is very windy in downtown Chicago on windy days. And the other way the reputation came is from Chicago politics a bunch of wind bags. Most people think of the Windy City is simply the, the weather phenomenon. But when it originally began I understand that it was the political situation causing it to be called the Windy City. Chris 13:49 That’s great fun. Thank you. Amy, I’m gonna give it a quick name check because I heard you do an interview on Martin Bamfords podcast, absolutely fascinating and I’ve been dying to get you on our podcast ever since. So, do you want to give us a brief introduction to yourself and in particular what Thanatology is. Amy Florian 14:15 Thanatology you had it very very close to it’s correct pronunciation, it’s really just the way it looks. Thanatos is a Greek word, and it means death. So ology means study of in the narrowest definition, it would be study of death. It’s actually broader than that, my field is death, loss, grief, aging and transition. So it’s a, it’s a broader field than just death, but grief is a broader subject than just death. So many things trigger grief, besides just death. So it really is life. Life studies. It’s a subset of psychology, most people have not heard about it. It’s a growing field. That’s what I do Chris 15:05 I appreciate a lot of your time is advising people on how to help people with grief. Will it be okay to ask you it’s an odd thing to choose to do in life. Amy Florian 15:17 It does seem an odd thing to do in fact many times when I’m out and about, you know, you get to know people in a social setting and the first thing they say is, what’s your name, where do you live, then they say what do you do I tell them what I do. The reaction can be quite interesting, because it’s unusual. And we feel that it’s awkward and frightening, because we don’t know anything about it. So that’s really what I do is to try to help it not be frightening and not be awkward and instead become life giving when you really do know what to do. But how did I get into it in the first place. I was 25 with a seven month old son. When my husband was killed in a car accident. I was living in a small town in the rural part of the state of Iowa, in the United States. There was nobody who knew what to say to a 25 year old widow with a baby boy. There were no support groups there was, it was very difficult to find the resources that I needed to get through this. I did the best I could. I kind of attacked my grief, my son didn’t have a dad he darn well better have a mom. So I went to places we used to go and went there by myself. I did things we used to do together and did the by myself. I really forced myself to face this reality and work my way through it, more or less, on my own. About five years after John died, I went to a seminar on grief and loss, that was put on by a man who’d never been widowed. When I was talking to him afterwards. He said, Oh, I need your voice would you would you do a seminar with me on grief and loss so that, so that you can contribute from your experience. When I did, then someone else wanted me, somebody else wanted me, somebody else wanted me. Then they started asking me my credentials, and I didn’t have any except my own personal experience. So I went back to graduate school. I have a master’s degree, and I’m a fellow in Thanatology which is the highest level of certification you can get in that field. I founded a support group for widowed people. I taught graduate classes at Loyola University in Chicago for almost 10 years and undergraduate classes at three other universities. I started speaking and teaching all over the country, publishing articles writing books, it just kept going and going and going and there was such a need. It’s for me it was just so gratifying to turn around and help people have what I didn’t have when john died. It was so gratifying to equip people to truly help each other and offer comfort in ways that we’re just not taught in our Western society. Chris 18:27 So there is, I can’t imagine that anybody on this planet, is more qualified to discuss this topic than you. As a way of getting into the subject, can I ask, if you were to meet yourself now at 25, what advice would you give yourself? Amy Florian 18:45 That’s an interesting question. I would first of all say, this takes time. Do what you can, but be patient with yourself, because this takes time and a lot more time than people realize. I would also say, there’s people they don’t mean to be cruel. They are very well meaning they want to bring comfort, but expect that the vast majority of the people are going to say things that are hurtful, things that are objectionable or, at best, things that are neutral, and just try to take it with a grain of salt, saying they mean well. It will save you from a lot of stress and a lot of anger. If you just realize, okay. All right, take a breath, they mean Well, thank you very much for your concern I appreciate it, and then move on. Chris 19:49 Thats a fascinating one, that people would actually be hurtful without meaning to be. Can you give an example of how that might happen? Amy Florian 19:55 I’ve worked with a number of people who have had a child die or have had a miscarriage, or stillbirth. And people will say, Oh, don’t worry, you’re young you can have another one. Even though when John died, people so many people said to me oh you’re young you can get married again Don’t worry. So that’s just one example, people say the most outrageous things in an attempt to be helpful. You know, some of them aren’t quite so blatant, but even things like, oh she’s in a better place. Well excuse me right now I can’t imagine a better place than right here beside me. Besides, which the, you’re assuming someone else’s belief about the afterlife, which at the time of the crisis, the foundations of people’s beliefs get knocked out from under them and they need to be able to put them back together themselves, it is not helpful for people to tell them what they’re supposed to believe about their faith about religion about the afterlife about their loved ones present location. That’s just not comforting it’s not helpful. Chris 21:09 Presumably some of those are things that we’ve lets be honest, I’m sure we’ve all said something like that, without realizing it, and it’s come from feeling awkward about having to say something. So you say some daft thing that comes into your head. So, lets be positive, how should one approach such a conversation? Amy Florian 21:29 The overall principle is that it is not important for you to tell them something about you. It is not important for you to fix it. You can’t. It is not your job to cheer them up. That’s, that’s not why you’re there. Your job is to companion them wherever they are. And in order to do that. What you need to do is be present. And listen, and ask good questions. Asking good questions is so much more important than telling them something about you or saying something to cheer them up. Even the standard things we’re all taught to say, like, Oh, I’m so sorry for your loss. Well, what, I don’t even know how to answer that. Chris 22:24 What do I do with that information? Amy Florian 22:26 Thank you? What am I supposed to do with the collective sympathy of 357 people who come to the services. It tells me something about you but it really doesn’t offer anything to me. Chris 22:39 So that would suggest then, that it’s about making it about them not about you isn’t it? Amy Florian 22:41 Exactly. It’s about making it about them. And it’s in two ways. There’s, there’s two ways to go with this if you’re going to say something, then offer a memory or a story about their loved one. You know, I, we are going to miss Karen so much she knew how to make people happy. She would walk into a room she’d start smiling she’d reach out to everybody. I mean, pretty soon the entire mood of the, of the room would lift because Karen was in it. We are really going to miss her ability to make people smile to make them happy to make them feel loved. Wow, we’re really gonna miss that. But tell me you knew Karen so much better than me. What is something you hope people remember about Karen? Tell me something you’d loved about her. Wow, now you’re doing something comforting. Asking, is just asking really good questions like, my favorite question; What do you wish people knew about what you’re going through right now? What do you wish people knew, they’ll tell you what they wish you knew. What do you wish people knew about what you’re going through? What do you wish people knew about what it’s like now to face the first anniversary of your mom’s death? What do you wish people knew about what it’s like to see the soccer parents, now that your child isn’t playing soccer anymore? What do you wish people knew about what it’s like to have so many people here for the services and then have everybody disappear? What do you wish people knew about what it’s like to face the fact that your child took his own life? What do you wish people knew powerful questions, they’ll tell you what they wish you knew. And it doesn’t feel intrusive because it’s not like, tell me how you feel. It’s what do you wish people knew, if you could get into their imaginations. Oh my gosh, the stories come pouring out sometimes. What do you wish people knew about what it’s like, you know, to have everybody go home? It feels lonely. It feels so isolating. I thought that my married friends were going to be with me through all of this and now it’s, it’s like I’m a threat to them, because I’m single or they don’t know what to do. I’m a third wheel I’m a fifth wheel I don’t fit into my own social circle anymore. It’s just really hard. If you invite the story they can tell you that. Chris 22:56 Are you familiar with a video called ‘It’s not about the nail’? If you just type into YouTube ‘it’s not about the nail’ and I think that will be quite revolutionary, Neil Bage, friend of the Podcast, he told me about it quite a while ago, and it’s it just perfectly summarizes about how to listen and make it about the other person, not about you. Amy Florian 25:44 Yeah. Chris 25:46 So, are you dealing with this all day every day. I find this a hard conversation, because it’s an emotional conversation. You know what you’re describing is stuff that is real and it happens. If I’m finding it hard just to have a conversation with you about this. It kind of illustrates how hard it is to have a conversation with somebody who’s currently grieving. So, how about we get to just approaching, somebody you know has had somebody die, I want to pick the phone up because I want to help them but I’m scared to, because I don’t want to burst into tears, you know, how do you approach that? Amy Florian 26:27 Why is it bad to burst into tears? That’s another problem in our Western society everybody feels, well I just have to be strong. I have to be strong and strong means you can’t cry. Well, what that means is you stuffing down the grief, you’re stuffing down the emotions. And when you stuff it down, it doesn’t go away. It stays there and it will find a way to come back out and bite you. Chris 26:51 So to answer that question, why, because it’s a very fair challenge of course, I guess it’s because that makes it feel like I am making it about me if there is somebody I know that has had a recent berevement, especially as a husband or child. I can’t empathize with that. And if I phone up say Hi, how’s your day going, and burst into tears, and that’s making the conversation about me and I don’t feel it’ll be helpful. So I guess that’s why. Amy Florian 27:17 Yes, yes. I can understand that reticence at the same time it has to be balanced with the fact that every grieving person wants to know that their loved one’s life made a difference. That someone remembers, besides them. That, that there’s a void in the world besides just in their own life. And it’s actually very comforting for people to know that other people miss them too. So if you feel that by saying, Hi, how’s it going for you today, that you’re going to burst into tears then don’t start that way Start by saying, you know, I was thinking about Karen today, and I just, I just miss her so much that I, you know, the tears are right here, I just miss her so much. But she was even closer to you and a bigger part of your life. What is your day like today? I just wanted to let you know I miss her too. And I wanted to check in and see what it’s like for you today. Maybe we can cry together? Or maybe if this isn’t a good day for you, if you don’t want to, this is an emotional day for me if that’s too much for you today then I’ll hang up, I’ll ring back tomorrow. Just really missing her today. Chris 28:38 Yeah, I can see how that would work. Amy Florian 28:41 What we need to do is be authentic with each other. If we’re having a hard day on either side of the equation. Why are we so reluctant to admit that? If someone’s having a hard day and I’m not having a hard day that’s okay. It still is helpful. In fact, sometimes for grieving people, it’s helpful to be able to help someone else. So to be in it together to say well I’m having a better day today but wow it does sound like you’re having a hard day today. Let’s, let’s maybe get together and a couple of days we can have coffee and see where we are then. Maybe I’ll be down and you’ll be up, maybe we’ll both be having an up morning, maybe we’ll both be having a down day, this, you know grief is all over the place. It’s up and down and back and forth, all the time for everybody. Chris 29:32 Let’s just just talk about grief in a wider context, because grief isn’t just when sombody has died is it? Amy Florian 29:38 No, it’s not. Grief actually occurs whenever there’s a break in an attachment. Whenever you have to leave behind, someone certainly or something, or a way of life, a job title, a dream, a function or an ability to do something, your belief in a certain institution. Whenever you have to leave behind something that you like about your life, your familiar with it, you’re attached to it and you have to go forward and learn how to live without it, that triggers grief. So yes death triggers grief. So does divorce. So does having a child born with disabilities or acquiring a disability yourself. So does being downsized. So does retirment. Yes even, even positive transitions trigger grief because we have to leave something behind. Everybody wants to throw a retirement party. Look at what they have to leave, they’re leaving behind their title and status, their prestige, their daily routine, their reason for getting out of bed in the morning, the colleagues they associated with on a daily basis. They’re leaving behind an entire way of life that has been defining for them, for years. And they have to move to something different that’s still new and unknown and uncertain and what is this going to be like? And it’s it’s a very difficult time as well as a relief and a happy time, every transaction positive and negative. Somebody has a baby, don’t you just wish you could sleep through the night just once? Don’t you wish you could go to the grocery store without carrying a minor U-Haul behind you? You just, there’s things in every transition. No matter what it is, no matter if it’s a negative transition or a positive transition, there’s things that you’re grateful for or believed about, and at the exact same time, there’s things you miss and things you long for. So, every life transition triggers grief. Chris 31:48 You talked the beginning, it’s all bout time. You said things like, you can’t fix it, you can’t cheer them up, it’s about being present and listening. Is the word that one might use to encapusulate this, it’s a period of adjustment. And is this really about just being a support for somebody, whilst they adjust. Amy Florian 32:07 Yeah, that’s an interesting way of putting it. It is definitely an adjustment. And in different cases it’s more or less of an adjustment, they have, certainly if a spouse dies. Every breath you take all through today is different, everything is different. If you’re an adult, and your parent dies, your daily life is not really affected. You could essentially try to block it out and go about your daily life and your daily life is not affected, but then you want to pick up the phone and call her dad. And there’s no answer on the other side or you know there’s not going to be. And it’s different types of adjustments in each type of loss, but definitely yes, supporting and being there while they let go of what has to be let go of, while at the same time that they’re building something new that didn’t exist before. And as long as that takes and as much, as much time and effort is involved to be able to support and be there for them. During that process is really crucial. Chris 33:23 How do you help somebody who doesn’t want to be helped? Amy Florian 33:27 Yeah. You can’t. You can’t control another person. You can offer, you can provide resources, you can do everything possible, but you can’t make them do it. There is an element of healing that is a choice. And some people consistently make the choice not to heal. I’ve worked sometimes with people, with a, I’m thinking of a particular widow right now, who sort of built her identity around being a poor little widow. That’s how she got attention. That’s how she got empathy, that’s how she was able to go on with her life, is to get everybody to pay attention to her, to give her things, because she is a poor widow, and she couldn’t let go of that. Other times, it’s more like people are afraid to let go of the pain. Because the pain is their closest connection to the person who died, and they’re afraid if they let go of the pain, then they’re really letting go of that person or they’re being disloyal to that person by going on, and finding joy, and being happy and living again, that somehow that’s disloyal to the person who died. It’s, I love, Rabbi Earl Grollman said that “the greatest memorial we can ever build to somebody we love who dies, is to live our lives now as fully as possible enriched by their memory”. I love that. It means you take the best of who they were, of who you became because they loved you. To have their impact in your life, their gifts. You take the best of them and then you bring it with you into the future, to allow you to live in their memory, fully and joyfully and putting all the pieces back together again. I love that. Chris 35:27 A lot of our listeners are advisors, and we don’t always have the mandate to speak to somebody who’s grieving, and yet we also have a mandate to be helping them, whether its financial advisors or any other type. How do you help somebody, who doesn’t want to be helped? When you know what the end might be. Amy Florian 35:56 In a professional capacity as a financial advisor, you talk to people about their finances, but in order to do that, well, you have to talk to them about their lives, what their goals are, what they want to do with their money, you have to get into their personal lives in order to manage their money well. Chris 36:18 Of course, but if they don’t want to have that conversation with you. Amy Florian 36:24 If they don’t want to have that conversation with you as a professional, as a financial professional? Chris 36:31 I’m just using that as an example. It could be that it’s a particularly close friend, it could be somebody you know in the tennis club. There’s also situations where you’re not in the inner circle of somebody. And you know, as I say, in this particular example, the end result was tragic. When you know that that could be the end result, how do you, how would you help somebody to grieve, in a positive way than what the outcome might be? Or can’t you? Amy Florian 37:00 If you are in a position to or, or are close enough to reach out to that person, and just say this is really tough isn’t it? Where are you finding your support? What are the hardest things for you, what are what is easier than you thought, what has surprised you about this? Just to open up the channel that they can talk about things with you. If they totally shut it down. Then they totally shut it down, you can’t reach through a closed door. You can open as many doors as possible. If they close the doors, unfortunately we, we are not in control of other people and sometimes we have to let go of thinking that we are, because we aren’t. What we can do is everything possible, we can reach out, we can ask those questions. We can even, there are there are a number of hotlines that people can call if they’re feeling suicidal. If we have a little laminated wallet size card with hotlines on it and just say, you know sometimes people in a situation like yours, feel that they really need to talk to somebody, they don’t know who to talk to, they don’t want to go to family and friends. But they’d like to be able to talk to somebody objective who doesn’t have the baggage of family. And who might be able to help them a little bit. If you ever find yourself in that situation and you just stick this in your wallet or throw it on your coffee table. Maybe you’ll need it someday, maybe somebody in your family will, maybe a friend could find it useful. I just give these to everybody that I know who’s going through anything tough in their life, because it just provides a resource that people can have. If you don’t want it, throw it in the garbage, but here, somebody else who you know might want it. Chris 39:05 Yeah, you take the heat out of the conversation in a way. Amy Florian 39:06 Yeah. In those situations you want to be able to ask questions and open the door. And you want to be able to offer resources without making it seem too directed at them only, or too intrusive. Just say I give this to everybody. This is what I find with a lot of people I work with, you know, I’ve known others who’ve been in situations similar to yours, it’s not exact, I don’t know what you’re going through. But sometimes what I find is this. Chris 39:06 That’s actually a really nice way of using your professional capacity, isn’t it? Amy Florian 39:06 Yeah it is. Chris 39:46 To your advantage, where you’re able to say actually I’ve seen this happened before. Yeah. Okay. That’s. Thank you. Amy Florian 39:57 I recommend the book that I wrote about grief. It’s titled, A Friend In Deed, help those who love when they grieve. Because of that, because instead of saying to somebody, you know, here’s a good book about your grief I think you could use this. To say to somebody, you’re not the only one who’s grieving here you know your your parents are grieving, your kids are grieving, your family’s grieving, your friends are grieving, your, your place of worship is grieving. So many people are grieving. Here’s a book that has some good information about grief that might help you be able to support each other a little bit better, maybe help you get through this with a little less pain, a little more understanding, a little more compassion. So, here, take the book. Just take it home. Give it to anybody you think might be able to use it or just keep it someplace at your house, somebody might want to pick it up and just read a chapter, whatever. Whoever it’s helpful for. I give this out all the time. Here you go. Because it’s not intrusive. Chris So one last question if I may Amy, I could talk about this for ages so fascinating but. Clarity and security for those we leave behind is one of five parts of financial wellbeing. Let’s just have a little talk about money and particularly people who have perhaps a life ending illness. Or people maybe dealing with the immediate aftermath. But I am particularly thinking of people who have a life ending illness about getting their affairs in order. Have you seen anything you could recommend, good ideas or tips about that area. Amy Florian Absolutely. Actually, it becomes more imperative when you get that diagnosis. All of this is things we should be doing all along. Because you don’t always get the diagnosis. You may get the car accident, you might get the sudden heart attack. You might get a diagnosis and two days later, you die, you might not have time to get your affairs in order, we’ve all ought to have our affairs in order all our lives. Families, after a loved one dies I’ve seen them spend months, searching under mattresses, through drawers, in file cabinets, trying to put things together. I’ve seen cases where people have not visited their beneficiaries, in years. Then they die unexpectedly, and their beneficiaries are all wrong. Recently, a young 36 year old mother, wife and mother, died in a scuba diving accident very unexpected. Her life insurance still listed her parents as the beneficiary, not her husband, not her daughter. There’s so many things that we need to get in ahead of time. Having a last will and testament, having insurance. Insurance is not about you dying, it’s about your family living. It’s about if you died last night what would your family be worried about today? Would they be worried whether they could keep the house they just bought, would they be worried whether the kids or the grandkids could go to college? Life insurance is a way to help your family live whether you’re there in person to do it or not. And not just financial things healthcare things too. We know that the survivors of a loved one’s death grieve with more peace and less guilt and less second guessing, if they are not required to make medical decisions for their loved ones without knowing what their loved ones want. When they know what their loved ones want, that takes away the family fights. Mom would want to be hooked up to that machine, no she never wanted to be hooked up to a machine now how do you know. What do you want, what do you want for your medical treatment? What do you want your life to look like? Do you want some doctor in the ER who never met you to make your decisions or do you want to have them written down ahead of time? We also need to live as if we could die tonight, because we could. So when’s the last time you said I love you to the people that you love? Where’s the balance in your life, when’s, how, how much time do you spend yelling out or complaining to or complaining to someone else about the people you love versus the amount of time you say thank you? I am so proud, I am so happy to be your daughter, your wife, your sister, your friend. Thank you for the gift you are to my life. I appreciate you. I love you. Where’s the balance? We need to be keeping that in mind all the time. When we’re angry with somebody what is it worth? Is it something that’s worth sticking your stake in the sand and being angry and holding a grudge about, or is it something that in the big picture really isn’t that important and maybe you can just let it go? Living so that if we die tonight we have as few regrets as possible. If we die tonight the people we love know we’d love them. If we die tonight we know we have lived well. And we’ve made a difference. That’s, that’s the real underlying message that I wish people would get across, love the people you love and love them fiercely, live as fully as you can, every day that you have makes the world a better place. Chris I’ve never thought of it before that way, that clarity for those we leave behind includes, if I died tomorrow, would they know I loved them? I’ve never thought of that clarity in that way so that’s absolutely fantastic. Amy I can listen to you for weeks. It was so fascinating I really, really do appreciate you coming to talk to us. We will be doing lots of show notes lots of information about your, your work in your books, etc. And I would recommend anybody go and have a look at your website corgenius.com. I’ve just been reading when grief becomes depression, so many great tips and ideas on there for people. But I guess if there was one thing that I would take away from this, it’s engage, don’t avoid. Would that be a reasonable summation of your message? Amy Florian Engage don’t avoid, support the present. Chris Amy thank you so much for your time. Amy Florian You’re welcome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. David That was absolutely brilliant. Now Chris, I don’t often compliment you because you get to swollen headed, but I just thought that was a really sensitive interview really really well done for that. And I could tell, obviously, it affected you quite deeply as well, and it affected me perhaps in a different way. And I’ve been fairly open about the fact that my wife died, seven years ago, seven years. And a lot of the things that Amy talks about I’ve experienced them myself. You know that thing of nothing will ever take away the memory of somebody who you love dying in your arms. The grief of that is palpable and real. However, the way which you deal with it, and most importantly, the way in which people around you help you deal with it, is absolutely vital. And a lot of the things that she talked about there were things that in the early years after Dinah’s death, you know, I experienced as well. And I think the thing that I took away from that most is when she says, What do you wish people knew? You know, it’s a great question. I think the way in which she frames that question. I’ve also recently actually just, Chris this is somebody you will know as well, mourned the death of a very close friend. And it is how you deal with that. When I was talking to her husband about it, it was very close friend of mine, was able to pass on some of my feelings. The thing that I was able to say to him was not, Oh, you must really miss her, I was able to say, you know what, I really really miss her. I really miss her. And, you know, you must miss her too. And it’s just a different way of framing it and so I thought that was great, really, really interesting stuff to say that. Chris Yeah, so I thought you, David, would find that quite effecting yourself. The line that, well one of the many lines that I liked was, every grieving person wants to know that their loved ones made a difference. And that’s completely changed how I would speak to somebody who’s greiveing. Completely changed it. Just to share a story with them, to suggest an anecdote. Remember when… Someone is sharing that grief and then sharing it obviously is easing the load one hopes. Did you find David things that particularly worked or particularly didnt work? David I think I think certainly the sharing is really important, it’s that it’s, it’s, you know, when people are tiptoeing around, you know, when people don’t want to say that it might upset him. Listen, if you’re wife’s died, you’re going to be upset. And clearly you’re going to have feelings about it. So I think the important thing for me was when people were just honest. And if they said yeah I’m upset, you know, you must be upset too. Yeah, we could sometimes have a cry together. And I think that was great what Amy said, you know, I am I’m prone to tears anyway. But it’s a time when I’m feeling sad about things, particularly the death of a loved one. If you need to have a cry, have a cry. And if you need to have a cry with somebody else, have a cry with somebody else, but also remember the good times as well, because a lot of the things and this applies. Particularly as well to the friend I just lost, at the funeral and at the wake as I did with my wife when she died. We spent a lot of time laughing and remembering the good times we had together. And I think another thing that Amy said we should live our lives as fully as possible enriched by the memory of that person. And not to get bogged down by it, some people really never get over the death of a loved one or a parent of a sibling. And who am I to say that they shouldn’t always carry that sadness with them. But I think after a while that’s not good. So, you need to crack on with your life and also the other crucial thing, and this goes back to what Tight Ass Tommo was saying earlier, let’s plan for our death, make sure you, as Amy said, make sure we’ve all got a will. Make sure we’ve got the appropriate, life insurance. Because in the end, when that person is dead, you’re the person, you and your family and your siblings or whoever it might be are the people who are going to have to deal with that. So, the biggest gift I think that we can all give to those who are going to mourn us when were gone is to make sure that we plan for it as best as we can. Producer Tommo Yeah, I think that is a lovely link. Grieving is hard enough without having to worry about finances. David Yeah I have, sorry to inturpt, I have in the light of this recent pandemic revisited my will, as well. It’s interesting to hear what Amy said. And I realized that actually, my will hadn’t been updated, you know, for years and actually I left everything to my wife, who was dead. So, you know, you need to sort of update that, it’s very easy to just let that slip by. So, I think, planning and doing the right thing very very important. I speak as a non financial person who has learnt that absolutely. Producer Tommo I think, from my point of view, this is probably more reaching out to those who are practicing advisors who listen to this podcast. The key message from it well firstly plattitudes are not particularly helpful, I think we can all slip into that because there’s a comfort zone, which it shouldnt be about us being comfortable. But it was simply, she said ask questions. And that was a big thing I took away from it and I will take into my professional life in particular is that when we do. I am confronted by by death in, in what I do for a living. Unfortunately. And we want to be there to support those who are left behind and just ignore the platitudes, ask questions and sharing those experiences. I felt it really, that listenening to that interview, I found really helpful and I will take that onboard. David Just one thing as well, I remember somebody saying to me. Not long after Dinah died. It was well meant. And they said, well, don’t worry because she will be an angel in heaven now. And I wanted to punch them in the face. Because because anybody that knew Dianah would have known that she would not have subscribed to that principle of heaven and hell the angels, all of that. Also I knew that the person that said that was not even themselves, a religious person. And it was, it was the glibbest most platitudinous that anybody could have said, but they said it for the right reasons because they didn’t know what else to say. So I think that is spot on Tom, avoid platitudes, speak from the heart. Because people could cope with that ,speak from the heart. Chris I know this has been a very long podcast. I just want to finish with one thought because there’s also the fact that grief doesn’t just come from death grief, grief comes from change. I think Amy’s line was – positive transitions trigger grief. And that could be retirement, not being properly prepared for retirement, for example, having something else to do, can be a huge wrench for people. And the world is going through an almighty change in the moment and we are all suffering, a little bit of grief at the changes we see around us. So I think it’s important to respect that grief and to help each other, by asking each other. How are you feeling today, which is a key question. Producer Tommo Questions, it comes back to those questions and I think the point about retirement, it’s very important one. I will just finish on the personal experiences as we are in a sharing mood. I didn’t realize it at the time. But I realized that when, and I love him to bits, but when my son Toby was born. And I’d gone through that first real struggle as a parent. I was grieving for my former life. Not that I was unhappy with my life that that, I had, it’s what we wanted and are very fortunate. But I agree for the freedom of being an adult without children, and it didn’t dawn on me that actually it was just the transition I was getting used to. And it was really helpful to know that that was quite normal. And just came from speaking to other people in similar position. So, yeah, very, very insightful from from from that interview. That’s great. David Indeed. Well, listen, I hope you at home are taking something from that podcast. I think we all found it very profound, very interesting, and I hope you’ll join us again at some point in the not too distant future for another one of our financial wellbeing podcasts.

Episode 64 – The Financial Wellbeing Junkie The guys are back and may have found the secret meaning of life in this episode! They take a look at two key theories of wellbeing – Set Point Happiness and the Hedonic Treadmill – what really makes us happy and can we increase our wellbeing? There is the classic #TightAssTommo and the NEW Bages’ Biases, for a great episode well worth your time. (scroll to the very bottom of this post to listen to the episode) Welcomes & Introductions Click on this link for more information on the IFW Born out of a lot of the work that we’ve been doing on this podcast around Financial Wellbeing and the conference that we put on last year, and we got a huge amount of interest from people within the financial services world, and they wanted to get involved in Financial Wellbeing. Follow David on Twitter – @Dave_Backwell for #lockdownlibations What is this podcast episode all about? The Hedonic TreadmillSet Point theory of Happiness Could we have found the secret meaning of life? BRAND NEW FEATURE Bages BiasesEvery episode, Behavioral Finance expert Neil Bage is going to be giving us his money behavioral tip. – Link to Episode 36 – Understanding our attitude to risk– Link to Episode 21 – Financial capability – Link to BeIQ | Beam App This episode – Confirmation Bias TightAssTommo Featuring Spring Onions, Loo Roll and the real power behind the podcast “Hi guys” – Editor Tammy Today’s Topic – the Financial Wellbeing Junkie The guys reflect on their lockdown online spending sprees! Click on this link for more information about NextGen Planners Two theroies for Financial Wellbeing: Set Point TheoryWe reach adult life with a level of happiness that is static for the rest of our lives. It is unlikely to change. Link to Episode 39 – Theories of Happiness Hedonic TreadmillIf something reduces our wellbeing, we deviate away from our set pint – so we do something to give us a short term burst of wellbeing. From Chris’ retail therapy he came up with the expression ‘Financial Wellbeing Junkie’ – a short term fix for wellbeing. The new normal and the signinficant effect of lockdown on our wellbeing Everybody’s had to make some adjustments Research into life changing events and the effects on happiness If something has happened to significantly reduce our wellbeing. We indulge in reckless habits and in the search of wellbeing to try and bring us back to our Set Point Is it actually possible to deviate from our set level of happiness? Catastrophic events can reduce our wellbeingincreases in our wellbeing are more etheral Maybe our current level of well being is right for us? Complications in life have been removed temporarily due to world events – with distractions removed has wellbeing increased? No choice but to focus on the things that really make you happy. The importance of Time What might increase to our longtime well being? Or at least give longer lasting wellbeing, giving us greater protection against the things that knock us off our Set Point? Acceptance is important The importance of maintaining meaningful engagement with the world around you in later life, whether this is through social creative or physical activity, work or belonging to some form of community group.Age Concern Financial Wellbeing is one of five parts of wellbeing: Career WellbeingSocial WellbeingFinancial WellbeingPhysical WellbeingCommunity Wellbeing Financial Wellbeing, itself is really all about how you use your money to support and increase the other areas. Conclusions from the guys – It’s not so much about how we spend our money, but how we spend our time. The Financial Wellbeing Podcast This is what a good financial planner can do and Ovation Finance can help you. Ovation get to know you and find out your motives – so your money can help you spend time to maximise your wellbeing. Click here for more information. Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David 0:57 Welcome everybody to another one in our lockdown additions of the Financial Wellbeing Podcast. My name is David Lloyd, I’m at home in my, in my home office, and I am involved at the moment in a Zoom conversation with my two esteemed colleagues who would like to introduce themselves to you now. Chris 1:16 Tommo – after you mate. Producer Tommo 1:18 Oh wow. Oh wow, we usually have a bit of a battle over this. Yes. Tom Morris Chartered Financial Planner and director at Ovation Finance. Chris 1:30 So I’m Chris Budd, I wrote the Financial Wellbeing book. I’m also chairman of the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing. And am chairman of Ovation. I’ve got a few things actually, yeah, so there you go. And I’m currently standing in my cabin in the garden which is where I’ve been for few years actually, I mean, not just in the cabin obviously I am allowed out every once in a while. So if you hear little noise in the background, it’s the rain pattering on the roof because it does get a bit noisy when it rains hard in here. Producer Tommo 1:54 With a desire to add to my back catalogue. As Chris has mentioned it. I’m also on the executive board of the IFW, so just needed to put that in there because I’m always conscious of re-listening to these, how many interests, you two have got. David 2:10 What is the IFW? Producer Tommo 2:12 Good, I’m glad you got I’m glad you got that cue. The IFW is the Initiative of Financial Wellbeing, which is an organization that was very much born out of a lot of the work that we’ve been doing on this podcast around Financial Wellbeing and the conference that we put on last year, and we got a huge amount of interest from people within the financial services world, and they wanted to get involved and it’s manifested from there and we are how many members strong now Chris? Chris 2:44 160, I think it is, individual members. We’ve got lots of partner members or sponsors as they’re also known. So if there’s anybody working for a company that thinks ‘do you know what financial well being we would quite like to get involved in that’ then get in touch with us, because we are looking for partner member companies to help support our work. David 3:02 Brilliant. And before we go on with the main body of the podcast today. As I said in the introduction, we still at the moment that this is being recorded still in lockdown we’re still confined largely to our homes, just want to briefly ask the two of you, how are you coping with all? T ommo your at home, you’ve got a toddler and another one on the way, how are you dealing with all of that? Producer Tommo 3:21 I do that’s hot off the press isn’t it? I, my, my darling wife Lindsay is expecting our second. So that’s all very exciting. And, yeah, I am doing far better than I was, a few weeks back actually. It’s just routine, getting used to the new way of doing things and it’s I find it’s amazing how human beings can get used to a new norm in a fairly short space of time. I have my moments but I’m, yeah, it’s gonna be strange actually going outside again now I think. David 3:52 Chris, what about yourself? Chris 3:53 Well that phrase “the new normal” is gonna come up again later tonight so I’m glad you used that. I’m al right. Yeah, I think, I think it’s fair to say that I am watching a lot of films in the evenings, Im quite enjoying that. Getting to watch some stuff with my son who’s really into his films, so we watched Pale Rider last night, Clint Eastwood, and I have watched a few interesting films recently. So yeah it’s okay, it’s okay. I wouldn’t want this to last forever David but we’re doing all right. David 4:18 Yeah I find going back to something Tommo said I think routine, I’m finding that really really helpful. I just finished watching actually, with my 16 year old nephew who’s in lockdown with me, the entire series of Game of Thrones. Which we’ve watched two a night for the past five weeks, and I really enjoyed. I’ve seen it before he hadn’t, so we’ve really enjoyed that. So we’re gonna have to break new ground tonight, watch something else. But I think those routines really help as well I’ve had a little, little hash tag going on Twitter called #lockdownlibation – where I feature a different drink, every night, and I’m enjoying that I mean it just started off with me you know with a photograph of a glass of cider and it’s kind of just grown into me now trying to come up with something, perhaps witty, never anything that profound. Anyway, Chris 5:02 I think it’s worth saying actually David, you’re a good follow on Twitter so @dave_backwell. I’ve enjoyed your libations as well. I have to say, you know, it’s not that difficult to find a picture of you with a pint of cider is it, lets be honest? David 5:16 It’s true. All right, thank you for that little plug. Okay, so let’s let’s crack on with today’s podcast, what are we talking about today, Chris? Chris 5:25 Well today David we’re going to talk about a concept called the ‘Hedonic Treadmill’ and Spot Theory of Happiness,’ and when I was doing the research and writing some of the stuff for this, I thought I found the secret of life! The secret of the meaning of life. It’s not 42, after all, it’s all to do with the Hedonic Treadmill so anyway well that’s what we’re going to talk about. David 5:47 Okay. Well, Now, I look forward to that very much. indeed, I’ve never come across the word hedonic before but no doubt you’ll tell us more of that. Before that we have a couple of features that we need to bring to you. So I’m very excited to announce that we’ve got a brand new feature on the podcast – Bages’ Biases. Now every episode, Behavioral Finance expert Neil Bage is going to be giving us his money behavioral tip. He’s been on the podcast before in Episode 36 and 21. But his company BeIQ has just launched a new app called Beam. Now it’s currently only available on iTunes, but it’s coming to Android devices later in the year I’m told. And Beam will help you to uncover your own behavioral biases, the things that often stop us from making good decisions about money. So let’s have a listen to what bias Neil has for us in this episode. Neil Bage 6:38 Today we start with Confirmation Bias. So, what is Confirmation Bias. Confirmation Bias sees us searching for, or interpreting information that is consistent with our existing opinions or beliefs, whilst at the same time, ignoring any evidence that could prove that we’re wrong. It’s a very powerful Behavioral Bias and is what psychologists call the mother of all Behavioral Biases. Let me give you an example, assume you hold the view, the opinion, that people who have blue eyes are more intelligent than those who don’t have blue eyes. You want to prove your point. So you go online and you search for are blue eyed people the most intelligent? I’ve done this, and the first response up is from a well known British newspaper, we’ve carried out the research of looking into this and have concluded in inverted commas, that A; a series of very bright historical characters had blue eyes, Stephen Hawking, Marie Curie for example, and B; blue eyed people are more studious and outperform brown eyed individuals in exams. Well, that’s all fine and dandy right but it blatantly leaves out some crucial information, such as examples of historically brilliant people weren’t blue eyed, or how people with different eye colors perform in exams. In seeking evidence for my hypothesis, this goes a long way to confirming my beliefs, I could just stop there and tell people that I have evidence that supports my view. Now, what happens if instead you search for eye color and intelligence. Well, this gives us a completely different set of results, much more grounded, much more fact based, but it also gives me access to evidence on all eye colour, and IQ scores, so I can see information that will help me reach a conclusion. Now, I can continue to search for fact based evidence and update my mental model of the world, or I keep searching for information that only confirms my view. And at the same time, ignore any of the evidence that proves that my hypothesis is wrong. Therefore, a great tip for this bias is not to accept your view or opinion as fact. And if you’re looking for information to support your view, start by looking at evidence that doesn’t support your view, see the other side of the story first, and it may just help you keep your Confirmation Bias at bay. David 9:26 Interesting stuff there. Good to hear from Neil again. It goes back to the assertion by my follower on Twitter yesterday that Boris Johnson the best Prime Minister we ever had, it just goes to show that just because you believe Brexit was a good thing, doesn’t necessarily follow that the man who brought it to us, is the best Prime Minister, capable of doing the job. So very interesting point now from Neil I thought. Producer Tommo 9:48 I would imagine there’s a little bit of Confirmation Bias going on with you aswell Dave? David 9:55 Possibly Producer Tommo 9:55 I’m gonna give you an example. I’m acutely aware of some of this stuff as you would hope, David as your financial planner! And you’re going to get introduced to the Beam app, and what we’re using it ovation is the back office system for that so we can really get some terrific insight into our clients behaviors and talk about that with them so watch this space on that one we’re gonna have an exciting meeting next time we see each other. David 10:22 Looking forward to it. Producer Tommo 10:23 But actually I had this experience myself. So, I’m, a man who likes a spreadsheet. I’m a man who likes data, and I have been tracking the COVID-19 death figures. It sounds terribly morbid, but just trying to get some sense of what the patterns all mean. For me, it was an odd sense of control at least knowing what was going on. And I noticed that it was definitely an outlier that is Germany in Western Europe anyway. And I allowed my suspicions, which are completely unfounded at this point, I think there’s something going on with that numbers. I have no proof of that. So, but I could see it triggering in my mind, hang on a second you’re making assumptions based on no facts at all. So I sent a simple Twitter message out there and just said look could somebody explaine to me how Germany have got the same amount of cases that are positive as the UK but have far fewer death rates numbers. And I got back, some really informed opinions and decision based on quite a lot of good evidence that enabled me to have the counter arguments to my initial grounding and belief. I just completely switched my view on it, I think that we haven’t got the evidence yet to be quite frank, but it just pulled me away from just searching for information that suited my initial thoughts. Does that make sense. David 11:48 Yes it does. No, absolutely. And I think we look forward very much to hearing more of Neil’s Biases in future episodes. Now is the time to move on though to another one of our features which has proved incredibly popular in all the podcasts that we’ve done. When we get our champion of cheapness TightAssTommo to come up with another one of his great money saving ideas. Before he does Chris have you’ve got anything for us today? Unknown Speaker 12:14 I do David. It’s a work in progress, but I saw a Tweet from somebody talking about how to regrow spring onions. Now I do love a good spring onion. You know when you chop the end off with all the little roots on it. The idea is that you put that into some water. The roots regrow and then you can then plant it in your garden, and you can get new spring onions. And I assume you can just keep doing this round and round forever and never have to buy a spring and you’re never again. David 12:42 So I am growing spring onions at the moment so when when I harvest the first one I will do exactly that. Chris 12:49 I’ve got a little ball in the kitchen with with 10 ends of spring onions currently in it with some water. So we’ll see whether it works or not. David 12:59 Brilliant. Okay, Tommo, what have you got for us? Producer Tommo 13:01 Today, I’ve got a silly practical one for you, and it was actually shared with me by Tammy, the real producer behind this podcast. . . Chris 13:11 Hi Tammy! Producer Tommo 13:12 As the editor would definitely be listening to this. And it was quite a funny one and seems. . . Can you remember when toilet paper was you know more. . . Well, it seems to be available again, but I can remember it was, it was more expensive than gold at one point. And ironically, one loo roll was more expensive in a barrel of oil, you know at some point during this. . . Chris 13:38 Bit worried, is this going to be an alternative to toilet roll I’m really worried where this is going! Producer Tommo 13:44 No, just a bit of context, when we listen back to this in a years time on how how crazy these times have been that loo roll was the currency of choice! But it did make me laugh because the advice was all around making it go a little bit further, and that was to squash the loo roll, before you put it on the loo roll holder, so that when you pulled it to use it. You didn’t actually pull more than you need it because it wasn’t a perfect circle. So, you know, perfect for children who don’t really get the concept of, you know, making sure it lasts, and a lot of adults too. See as I was a terrific tip David 14:23 Brilliant, brilliant, so Tommo says, wipe your bum with oil. Right. So, Chris, enough of this levity, why don’t you introduce our subject for today. Chris 14:36 Okay, so I want to talk about a boxset of Fellini films that I recently bought. But you may remember David that little Twitter chat about, David 14:46 We did indeed yes you were, you were looking for recommendations between Fellini or Truffaut and I recommended Fellini mainly based on the fact I haven’t seen any Truffaut films. Chris 14:56 Confirmation Bias at work! David 14:59 How are you finding them? Chris 15:01 Oh, I really enjoyed it. I’ve watched two so far, I’ve really enjoyed them. But the thing is, when they arrived, I completely forgotten that I bought them, it took me by surprise. I’ve only a few days, and yet I forgotten that I had ordered a boxset of the Fellini films which was a crazy thing to do really and it made me just reflect upon my amazon shopping, and I’d been doing a bit of an online buying spree. So, at about the same time I was doing a bit of research on theories of happiness for a NextGen thing, which is if you’re if your financial advisor hopefully will know NextGen, they do a morning commute, and I’ve been doing a daily tip. So, I kind of came up with this phrase the Financial Wellbeing Junkie. So I’d like to explain what I mean by this which gives me the chance to go through some Financial Wellbeing theory, starting off with how much more I’ve buying online. David 15:48 Well yeah, I’ve been doing a lot of that as well. You can’t get out to the shops apart for buying food. So I’ve been buying all sorts of things. I had some bamboo canes turn up the other day that I’d forgotten that I’d orderd. Support for my French beans. Producer Tommo 16:03 I, it’s fair to say we’re getting a few parcels arrived. I’m not ordering them because I’m TightAssTommo. However, Lindsay is is ordering quite a few, and she says it’s the thing that keeps her going because she’s got something to look forward to each day. I I’m like wow, times are bleak when you’ve got locked down with a toddler. But yeah similar, similar things happening this end. Chris 16:26 Okay, so listen this is, this is the theory right, this is this is, follow me with this logic. First of all I need to tell you about two bits of theory for Financial Wellbeing. The first is Set Point Theory, now we have looked at set point theory before back in Podcast 39. Basically the idea of Set Point Theory is that we reach adult life with a level of happiness which is then static for the rest of our lives. They reckon it’s between 50% to 80% determined by genetics and the rest is from our childhood. And that when we reach adult life then that level of wellbeing, stays the same for the rest of our lives, it’s unlikely to change greatly. And there’s lots of studies and research I could describe to you the backs that up. So what happens as we go through life is there’s something called the Hedonic Treadmill. Fantastic expression. The Hedonic Treadmill is a way of saying that, when we deviate away from that Set Point of wellbeing, maybe, something happens that reduces our wellbeing – we do something to give us a short term burst of wellbeing, that takes us back up to our Set Point level. So, when we are put off our stride, if you like, like a lockdown, you go and you do things to give yourself wellbeing to bring you back up to your set level. So, like for example, you go online and you buy stuff to get a bit of short term retail therapy, the short term fixes of wellbeing. Which is why I came up with this expression, bit tongue in cheek, a bit of fun the Financial Wellbeing Junkie, because I realized when that Fellini boxset that landed on my doormat, I’d become a Financial Wellbeing Junkie. Buying things to get short term fixes of wellbeing, to bring me back to my set level. Tommo you mentioned earlier on, about this phrase, the new normal. Producer Tommo 18:13 Yeah, I wonder whether that’s fitting into what you’re saying, you know we were looking for these short term fixes. You know as we try and adjust to this new normal, you know, lockdown has a significant effect on our wellbeing. There is no doubt about that. And I think there’s an element of us just trying to get back to where we were before. Chris 18:35 Yeah, I think that’s absolutely true. I’ve been speaking to a lot of people that always say to us, as David did at the start of this ‘How are you feeling at the moment?’ Nobody is saying, ‘I’m brilliant!’ Everybody’s had to make some adjustments. And actually that’s what we do, we make two different changes, we might adjust to the new normal. Or we get short term fixes of well being to keep us up to that level. Let me give you another example – there’s a really interesting, very famous, bit of research where they took two groups of people who’d had massive life changing events. One of them were lottery winners. Like a significant lottery winner. And the other one were people who had an accident, which led to loss of limb. And they asked these people were you happy before this life changing event. And were you happy after the life changing event. So what do you think guys what was the conclusion from that survey? David 19:53 Well I think they do say money cannot buy you happiness so, I wouldn’t assume that people would necessarily be any happier because they had the money. Okay, Tommo? Producer Tommo 20:04 I know the answer. Chris 20:07 So the answer is, whatever they said, from either group before the event was the same after the event. So if somebody was happy before they won the lottery, or had that loss of limb they were happy afterwards. And if they were unhappy before they were unhappy. In other words, the life changing event didn’t actually affect their long term level of wellbeing. So, this has a really interesting application in clinical psychology. If someone is depressed, then it could be because they’re a long way from their Set Point, and as a clinical psychologist can help trace the events or points of change that led to the move from the Set Point, they can help the patient recover from the depressive spell. And it also explains why, if something has happened to significantly reduce our wellbeing. We indulge in reckless habits and in the search of wellbeing to try and bring us back to our Set Point, such as playing a Fellini boxset! David 20:58 So understand the theory we have a set level of wellbeing and our actions and experiences only have a finite effect before we return back to that level. I also get the point that the way we spend money tends to have only short term effect. But that does leave a couple of key questions I think. how can we spend money in ways that will have a longer term impact on our Set Point of wellbeing? And is it actually possible to deviate from our set level of happiness? Unknown Speaker 21:25 I think, I think this is the heart of what the, the podcast has been all about and will be all about. It’s the interesting question so let’s, let’s look at the second one first. Is it possible to increase our long term level of wellbeing? Well there are some things that are accepted will affect long term wellbeing, can be pretty catastrophic, such as the death of a child. The sorts of things that might increase our Set Point are much more etheral things like mindfulness and acceptance. Producer Tommo 21:52 Well, maybe our current level of well being is right for us. Maybe if we didn’t spend so much time trying to be happier and accepting what we have, wouldn’t that in itself just make us happier? You know I’m thinking right now, if you’re quite naturally grumpy, and you’re thinking you’re likely to have a higher point of happiness or well being, actually, that you’re happy being grumpy? Chris 22:15 Are you speaking from personal experience there Tommo? David 22:18 Only happy when you’re miserable? Chris 22:21 I found during lockdown, some of the complications of my life has been removed. Organizing social events which I do a lot of, promoting the Employee Ownership Trust the Eternal Business Consultancy, a lot of that is stopped. So, I’ve been, or at least reduced temporarily so I’ve been able to focus on the things that make me happy. My stress has been removed and I actually think my wellbeing has increased up a little bit, perhaps, never to my set level, because some of the distractions have been removed. Producer Tommo 22:50 Yeah, I can, if you’ve got no choice but to focus on the things that really make you happy and maybe that’s, yeah falls into why we’re maybe trying to also catch that. Maybe there’s an element, some people lose their purpose during this period, those that are on furlough. David 23:07 Yeah, I’m not doing any writing, well I’m doing bits of writing for myself, my TV writing has stopped. But I think one thing I’ve discovered that I am really enjoying, not today as it’s absolutely hosing it down with rain, is I’ve discovered that I like gardening. But one of my Confirmation Biases, if you like, is why I don’t like gardening, I’m no good at gardening. I think the truth was I never, I never really had time for it. I never made time, I was busy doing other things. But the things with which I occupied my time which follow my work, and also heavily involved in cricket which is another thing which isn’t happening this time again. I’ve now actually got more time, and because my gardener isn’t calling either, I thought I need to get to grips with this massive garden I’ve got. And actually, I’ve been spending some really enjoyable time out there. And I realized that it wasn’t the fact that didn’t like gardening, it was the fact that I didn’t have time to do it properly. Producer Tommo 23:59 That’s interesting – time. Time. I think we talked about this in a previous podcast, time is so important to us because we can fill it with the things that we really enjoy doing and then maybe from what you’re saying, Chris about you’re actually focusing on the things that make you happy and David you’re able to focus on the things that make you now you have the time. My comment about your current level of wellbeing being right for you or just accepting it maybe isn’t true if if there is an opportunity to just go and search to see if there are other things that we can explore. I don’t know? David 24:35 I think that’s very true. And I think the one thing that most of us do have plenty of at the moment is time. Time that we’re not used to having and it’s, I guess how we use that. But I’d come back to the other question, if I may, Chris. What might increase to our longtime well being, or at least give longer lasting wellbeing? So giving us greater protection against the things that knock us off our Set Point. Unknown Speaker 24:58 I think I would answer that, firstly by just saying, have you ever seen an unhappy Buddhist? You know, Tommo’s point about acceptance I think is really, really important. And this this lockdown time is for some of us is giving us a chance to say well what’s actually important get rid of the noise and accept our level of wellbeing. And stopping the fight, if you like, the rat race. I know there’s a lot in that. Age Concerned did an interesting survey recently about wellbeing in the over 60s. The key sentence from that report, which surveyed some 15,000 people, was the following – The importance of maintaining meaningful engagement with the world around you in later life, whether this is through social creative or physical activity, work or belonging to some form of community group. Producer Tommo 25:47 That’s, I mean that rings true. A big part of where Financial Wellbeing comes from is, it is just one of five parts of wellbeing. And actually, it can help support these other areas of wellbeing that are arguably more important. Think of community wellbeing, we’ve talked about that in previous podcasts. Social wellbeing, it all comes out in that, in that sentence right there. And I think, focusing on that not just our finances is incredibly important. But if we can, if we can get our finances to be secure enough to support those areas I mean great, imagine that combination. Unknown Speaker 26:26 So that age concern report cites engagement in creative and cultural activities as being a major part of contributing to overall wellbeing so Financial Wellbeing, itself is really all about how you use your money to increase the other areas of cultural, creative, community, social etc. So if we want to have one thing to do a lockdown time – that’s what we should be doing using this time to make sure we work on the other areas of our wellbeing and direct our money in that direction as well. David 26:58 So in some ways we may perhaps have been looking in the wrong place when we were running our more active ‘helter skelter’ lives it’s perhaps not so much about how we spend our money, but how we spend our time. Chris 27:10 David, you have a brilliant way of summarizing these things. I could have just ask you to say that at the beginning, and we could have saved everybody that time. David 27:23 It’s been a it’s been a varied conversation today, which I’ve really really enjoyed. And I hope at home that you have to, and that you’ll join us again very soon for another one of our Financial Wellbeing Podcasts.