Kinsella On Liberty

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 310. This is my appearance on the Nate the Voluntaryist Livestream #154, from Aug. 27, 2020 (his Bitchute channel). I forgot to mirror it on my stream last year, so remedying that now. Apparently, according to the show notes, we discussed "argumentation ethics, property rights, Hoppeanism, and more!" https://www.bitchute.com/video/Fp4kpsBFo7ek/

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 309. This is my appearance on the Nate the Voluntaryist Livestream #81, from Jan. 7, 2020 (his Bitchute channel). I forgot to mirror it on my stream last year, so remedying that now, though I don't recall what we discussed. Surprise episode! https://www.bitchute.com/video/Fp4kpsBFo7ek/

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 308. This is my appearance on John Stossel’s Fox Business News show, Stossel, back on Jan. 30, 2015. I just realized I had never put it here in my podcast feed, so here it is. The full episode is streamed below (I recommend also my friend David Koepsell's segment); my audio clip is included in this podcast episode. Discussed further in KOL171 | With Albert Lu Discussing Stossel and IP. Grok shownotes and transcript below. From: Stossel Show on Intellectual Property *** A few weeks ago I was invited to appear on an upcoming episode of John Stossel's Fox Business News show, Stossel. I flew to New York last Wednesday for a Thursday taping; the show will air this Friday, Jan. 30.  I had a great time. Had dinner with several local libertarian friends (David Kramer, Isaac Bergmann, Evan Isaac, etc.) and my long-time friend Jack Criss, who joined me on the trip. Spent a while seeing New York, with my friend Dante Bayona as a helpful guide. New York was cold, but we still enjoyed it. (Pix from the trip below.) The taping on Thursday went well—I was nervous but think I did okay. There were five guests altogether. The first segment was a debate between anti-IP anarchist David Koepsell and a conventional IP attorney; then a magician who was upset about people "stealing" his magic tricks; then me; then Chris Sprigman, about whom I've written before. I was a little leery that this was kind of a setup or something, but Stossel and the Fox News staff could not have been nicer or more professional. My impression is Stossel is leaning our way, as indicated in his Reason post, which quote me and Koepsell and criticizes IP (Owning Ideas—An Outdated Idea?; see also his column Owning Ideas). As far as I know this is the first time IP has been examined in such a major, national forum, and from a principled, and radical, free market perspective. Kudos to Stossel. More on Stossel's show here. The episode airs 9pm EST this Friday night, Jan. 30, on Fox Business, and apparently re-airs on Fox News Channel Sunday night. Pix *** Grok summary: Show Notes: KOL308 | Stossel: It’s My Idea! (2015) with Stephan Kinsella and Guests Introduction to Intellectual Property and Piracy Concerns [0:01–1:00] John Stossel opens the episode by addressing the issue of piracy, noting that The Wolf of Wall Street was the most illegally downloaded movie in 2014, highlighting Hollywood’s and musicians’ struggles with unauthorized copying. He explains that U.S. law grants creators exclusive rights to songs, books, movies, and paintings to foster innovation through a limited period of exclusivity. Stossel illustrates this with a clip from a gangster movie where Denzel Washington’s character defends his drug brand “Blue Magic” as a trademark, emphasizing the value of brand identity. He introduces the debate by questioning whether watching his show on YouTube constitutes stealing, setting the stage for a discussion on intellectual property (IP) with guests including David Koepsell, Lawrence Suskind, Rick Lax, Stephan Kinsella, Chris Sprigman, and Doug Stanhope. The Role of IP in Encouraging Innovation [1:00–3:13] Stossel frames the historical significance of ideas, crediting innovations like the printing press and electricity for improving billions of lives. He poses the problem: why invest years in creating if others can copy the idea and undercut prices? Using a light bulb invention example from filmmaker Kirby Ferguson, he argues that without recouping development costs, creators may be discouraged. Stossel explains that copyrights and patents were introduced to address this by granting temporary exclusivity—copyrights for media, patents for inventions. He notes the extension of copyright terms over time, from 28 years in 1831 to the author’s life plus 70 years by 1998, which David Koepsell criticizes as excessive, advocating for the abolition of all IP rights, while Lawrence Suskind, an IP attorney, defends their necessity. Debating Copyrights and Moral Rights [3:13–11:22] The first segment features a debate between David Koepsell, who opposes IP, and Lawrence Suskind, who supports it. Koepsell argues that creators like Shakespeare thrived without copyright, profiting through reputation and performances, as ideas are non-scarce and IP laws stifle free expression. Suskind counters that creators have a moral right to protect their work, akin to a farmer’s right to land, and cites Shakespeare’s harsh measures against play pirates. Koepsell highlights software developers opting out of IP, relying on brand strength, while Suskind defends pharmaceutical patents due to high R&D costs. The discussion touches on music copyright issues, referencing George Harrison’s $1.5 million lawsuit for “subconsciously” copying “He’s So Fine” in “My Sweet Lord.” Stossel critiques Disney’s lobbying to extend copyrights for works like Snow White, which Koepsell calls cronyism, noting that public domain stories are exploited while new works are locked up until 2032. Magicians and Protecting Trade Secrets [11:22–18:14] Stossel introduces magician Rick Lax, who discusses how magicians protect their tricks without relying on IP laws. Lax shares how a Russian individual profited by selling the secret to his “Vertigo” trick, prompting him to create a fake exposure video to mislead copycats. He explains that patenting a trick reveals its mechanism, so magicians avoid it, relying instead on community norms. Lax recounts the case of Valentino, a Vegas magician ostracized for revealing secrets on TV, and contrasts this with Teller’s rare success in copyrighting a trick’s choreography, winning $155,000 against a Belgian copycat. Lax compares magicians’ secrecy to trade secrets like Coca-Cola’s formula, which remain protected without registration, though stealing such secrets is a federal crime, as seen in a case involving Pepsi and the FBI. Internet Piracy and Libertarian Perspectives on IP [18:14–24:07] Stephan Kinsella, author of Against Intellectual Property, joins Stossel to argue that IP laws censor free speech and hinder learning, copying, and remixing—key to human progress. He rejects the term “piracy,” asserting that copying ideas doesn’t deprive creators, as seen in widespread internet sharing. Kinsella, a libertarian, argues that patents and copyrights, unlike perpetual property rights, expire (patents after 17 years, copyrights much later), proving they are state-granted monopolies, not true property rights, as detailed in The Problem with Intellectual Property. Stossel admits he’s pleased when his show is shared online but worries about Fox’s funding without IP protection. Kinsella counters that popularity from copying boosts creators’ fame, and alternative revenue streams like ticket sales or YouTube channels suffice, citing the defeat of SOPA legislation as a win against internet surveillance. The Fashion Industry and the Benefits of Knockoffs [24:07–32:20] Chris Sprigman, co-author of The Knockoff Economy, discusses how the fashion industry thrives without copyright protection. Stossel showcases undercover footage of counterfeit Louis Vuitton bags sold in Chinatown for $200, far below the $1,000–$25,000 originals. Sprigman argues that knockoffs democratize fashion, allowing stylish looks for less without harming luxury brands, whose wealthy customers seek status and exclusive experiences. He explains that copying signals trends, fueling a fashion cycle that benefits the industry, as noted in his C4SIF posts. Sprigman dismisses claims that counterfeiting funds crime or costs jobs, calling International Chamber of Commerce figures baseless, though he acknowledges risks in pharmaceuticals and airplane parts. He cites Charles Dickens’ success in America, where lack of copyright for foreign authors led to cheap books, boosting literacy and Dickens’ lecture tour earnings, as discussed in Freakonomics: Does Copyright Make Books Disappear?. Comedians and Self-Regulation Against Joke Stealing [32:20–36:53] Doug Stanhope, a libertarian comedian, explains how comedians self-regulate against joke stealing without government intervention. He notes that open mic performers caught stealing are publicly shamed and ostracized. Stanhope recounts how Robin Williams and Milton Berle were labeled joke stealers, with Williams facing physical confrontations and payments. He discusses Louis C.K.’s gracious handling of Dane Cook’s alleged theft, contrasted with Joe Rogan’s public call-out of Carlos Mencia, which ruined Mencia’s career. Stanhope emphasizes that comedy’s community norms effectively deter theft, aligning with Kinsella’s view in Defamation as a Type of Intellectual Property that reputation-based systems, not state laws, can govern creative industries. Copyright, Parody, and Final Thoughts [36:53–41:06] Stossel highlights the absurdity of IP laws, noting that singing “Happy Birthday” on air could cost Fox millions due to Warner Music’s ownership, despite minor alterations failing to bypass copyright. He explains that parody is a legal exception, allowing mockery of works, as seen in clips mimicking his show. Stossel notes international IP violations, like China’s “Sunbucks” coffee or “Crust” toothpaste, reflecting weak enforcement abroad. He references Thomas Jefferson’s view that ideas, like candlelight, can be shared without loss, though Jefferson supported limited IP terms. Stossel concludes ambivalently, acknowledging libertarian arguments against IP from Kinsella and others but defending some IP laws, as they incentivize his books and Fox’s show. He suggests creativity flourishes when ideas are free, echoing Matt Ridley’s metaphor of ideas “having sex” to birth better ones, but remains concerned about funding creative production without IP. Transcript: Introduction to Intellectual Property and Piracy [0:01–1:00] Timestamp: 0:01

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 307. This is my appearance on the Ernie Hancock “Declare your Independence” show for Dec. 17, 2020 (Hour 2).  We discussed Intellectual Property in the Internet era, and related matters.

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 306. Jeremiah Harding, interviewed me last night for his Youtube channel Jeremiah Talks, about various bullshit arguments for IP and confused libertarians who call us "commies" for opposing IP socialism. Video coming soon.

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 305. I appeared today on the Disenthrall.me Youtube channel, host Patrick Smith, along with Keith Knight. We discussed whether social media bans and censorship is a breach of contract, and related issues. Related material: A Libertarian Theory of Contract: Title Transfer, Binding Promises, and Inalienability, Journal of Libertarian Studies 17, no. 2 (Spring 2003): 11-37 The Libertarian View on Fine Print, Shrinkwrap, Clickwrap (May 8, 2009) The “If you own something, that implies that you can sell it; if you sell something, that implies you must own it first” Fallacies, StephanKinsella.com (June 2, 2018) Rothbard on the “Original Sin” in Land Titles: 1969 vs. 1974 (Nov. 5, 2014)

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 304. I was a guest on The Liberty Weekly Podcast Ep. 136, with host Patrick MacFarlane (Nov. 1, 2020). From his shownotes: The Great Stephan Kinsella joins me to discuss balancing the practice of law with scholarly pursuits, the future of libertarianism, and his forthcoming book “Law in a Libertarian World.”

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 303. This was my appearance on the Free Thought Project Podcast: How IP Laws are the Antithesis of Liberty & Innovation, from Oct. 31, 2020. From their shownotes: On this week’s episode of the Free Thought Project Podcast, Jason, Johnny, and Matt talk with Libertarian Figurehead, Stephen Kinsella. Stephan Kinsella is an American intellectual property lawyer, a Libertarian writer and speaker, Director of the Center for the Study of Innovative Freedom. Kinsella is a leading anti-IP libertarian theorist, author of ‘Against Intellectual Property’ and has had work published in Mises Daily Article, The Journal of Libertarian Studies and the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. In the podcast we cover the basics of intellectual property, the misconceptions attached to them and how IP laws are the opposite of innovation. We also talked about Covid-19 vaccines patents, the evolution of meme culture, social media censorship using Copyright and IP laws, Bitcoin’s potential, how future technology will evade government regulations, 3D printing, voting, the 2020 election and if Mr Kinsella is an iPhone or Android user.

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 302. [Update: see various biographical pieces on my publications page, including Alan D. Bergman, Adopting Liberty: The Stephan Kinsella Story (2025).] From The Human Action Podcast, Oct. 23, 2020, with Jeff Deist, discussing Hans-Hermann Hoppe's Democracy: The God That Failed, chapters 5-8. Transcript below. From the Mises.org shownotes: Lawyer and libertarian theorist Stephan Kinsella joins the show to discuss the middle chapters of Hoppe's Democracy, The God That Failed—in particular dealing with "desocialization" of collective property, immigration, and free trade. These are the most controversial and widely-discussed parts of the book, and Kinsella provides a fascinating analysis of property vs. wealth, the problems with public ownership and forced integration, and the concept of rule-setting for state property. And don't miss the final part of the show for his explanation of "Hoppephobia." [“Hoppephobia” (Liberty, March 1990)] Kinsella's article on LewRockwell.com: www.lewrockwell.com/2005/09/stephan-kinsella/a-simple-libertarian-argument/ Read Stephan Kinsella's Against Intellectual Property at Mises.org/KinsellaBook Use the code HAPOD for a discount on Democracy: The God That Failed from our bookstore: Mises.org/BuyHoppe Mises Institute original video: Jeff Deist and Stephan Kinsella on Hoppe’s Democracy Transcript 00:00:03 JEFF DEIST: This is Jeff Deist, and you’re listening to the Human Action podcast.  Hey, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us, and welcome back once again to the Human Action podcast, a show we do every week where we are not afraid of books, even the 900-page books.  And that’s really what the show is all about is working our way through what we consider important or seminal works in the broad, let’s say, Austro-libertarian landscape, and then by doing so, hopefully encouraging you to read these books, to tackle these books and also helping you through them as you go. 00:00:38 So that’s the goal, and as you know, we have recently started with Hans-Hoppe’s Democracy: The God That Failed, and we chose this purposely because we had three weeks left until the election, so we’re breaking it up into three sections.  And last week we were lucky to be joined by my friend, Jayant Bhandari, and we had a great talk about things like time preference and civilization and capital at the beginning of that book.  And in the mid part of this book where Hoppe gets into the discussion of centralization and trade and immigration, I thought there would be nobody better to invite on the show than Stephan Kinsella with whom most of you are already familiar no doubt. 00:01:19 He is a patent attorney.  He has written extensively on not just libertarian theory but I would say more narrowly libertarian legal theory, which is a bit of a different animal.  And also, of course, he’s perhaps best known for his work on IP, and we will link to at least one article of his, which we shall discuss during the show.  We will link to his book, Against Intellectual Property, at the mises.org site.  If you haven’t read it, and you – or maybe you don’t have developed thoughts about IP in the digital age, you should read it.  You can read it easily over a weekend, and I very much encourage you to do so regardless of where you fall on that debate.  I – my personal feelings are in line with Kinsella on that topic, by the way.  So all that said, Stephan, thanks for joining. 00:02:08 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Glad to be here, Jeff. 00:02:09 JEFF DEIST: Well, I want to ask you before we get into the book, it came out in 2001.  Unfortunately, the Mises Institute doesn’t own this book, wish we did.  So where were you?  What were you doing in 2001?  Where were you living?  How did you become aware of Hoppe or this book? 00:02:25 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Oh 2001.  That’s a good question.  I remember that because that was the year of 9/11.  I was back in Houston.  I’m from Louisiana.  I had moved to Houston as a lawyer in 1992 and moved to Philadelphia in ’94 and been there for a few years and moved back to Houston.  And I remember in 2001, I was in my bedroom when the Twin Towers attack happened. 00:02:52 I was already a Hoppeian, Rothbardian, Austrian, anarcho-capitalist libertarian, and my first Hoppian introduction was his argumentation ethics in a Liberty Magazine symposium, which I read in 1988 in law school and – when I was in Louisiana.  And so I became enamored of Hans when I read that, and then I read his Theory of Socialism and Capitalism, which is a sort of a systematic treatise laying out his propertarian, Austrian theory, and then of course his subsequent books, his subsequent books which are more or less previously published articles but related by a common theme, so economics and ethics in private property in 1994 if I recall, and then Democracy, the one we’re talking about how, and then The Great Fiction, and who knows what else is to come. [Note: see related biographical pieces are here.] 00:03:58 JEFF DEIST: And so did you get to meet Rothbard? 00:04:01 STEPHAN KINSELLA: I did.  I was in Philadelphia in 1994, and I had written – I was a young lawyer.  I had written a review essay, a complementary review essay in the Law Review for Hoppe’s second book.  And I sent it to them, and I was a big fan of Rothbard and Hoppe and the others associated with them like Block and David Gordon and Lew and these guys.  And they were having a – it was a time of the fusion – the second fusionism movement with the – I forgot the name of the group now.  It was at Crystal City, Virginia, the… 00:04:45 JEFF DEIST: It was the Randolph Society. 00:04:46 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Yeah, the John Randolph Society.  (( See Meeting Rothbard and Hoppe: John Randolph Club, 1994. ))  That’s what it was.  And I was actually – I’m from Louisiana, so I saw the cigar smoking, puffing I would say neo-confederate kind of guys.  There was a little bit of this kind of southern, neo-confederate, flag, puffing stuff going on that – not too much, but it turned me.  That wasn’t my attraction.  My attraction was to meet Lew and Block and Hoppe and Rothbard.  And so I met Hans, and it was a pleasure and Lew, and I sat alone in an auditorium for about 30 minutes with Rothbard, and he – we talked, and he signed my book.  And then he died two months later in January, so I did get my little tiny overlap with Rothbard, which I’m glad to have done. 00:05:42 JEFF DEIST: Well, that was serendipitous, no question about it.  The book in question today, The God That Failed, I did an interview with Hoppe a few months back when I mentioned that this is undoubtedly his most famous work.  It doesn’t necessarily mean his most important, but his most famous.  So I guess give us your overarching take on the book and where it fits. 00:06:06 STEPHAN KINSELLA: It’s interesting because my take on Hans is not the same as that of others, partly because my take is more academic and more in the praxeological point of view.  And my favorite book of Hans is – and his is – we have a nice relationship, and he kind of rolls his eyes.  Oh, you love my Theory of Socialism and Capitalism.  I know that’s my favorite work of mine for you because it’s systematic.  And that was his first one that I read.  It bowled me over. 00:06:38 The other works were more compilations of essays, but they’re not just like a typical book of compilations of essays.  They’re just like, okay, it’s not like a columnist at the New York Times.  They’re just – these are deep essays, and they usually relate to each other, and they do hang together.  But I had read most of them already by the time they came out, so when the books came out, I already knew most of them. 00:07:05 And I was the one going like, why isn’t extreme apriorism or extreme rationalism included in one of these books?  So then it finally came out in The Great Fiction or whatever.  The Democracy book has a little bit more of the social – the conservative cultural kind of views.  I’m a lawyer and engineer who has dabbled in and lucky to have received knowledge in history and economics from the Mises Institute.  And these scholars I have been lucky to rub elbows with, but I don’t view myself in the same class as these guys. 00:07:44 So I don’t view myself as a cultural expert, so I find it interesting.  I have learned and borrowed from a lot of the stuff he wrote about that is in Democracy in some of my legal writing.  For example, the stuff about time preference and how it affects the formation of cities and just democracy itself, like this American assumption that democracy was an improvement over the earlier ancient regime. 00:08:22 I mean the introduction – to be honest, I know we’re talking about chapters.  This is something funny, by the way, about intellectuals like you and I, people that get into these books.  You said, hey Stephan, let’s talk about chapters five through nine, and I know we narrowed it down to five through eight.  You said it’s only 58 pages or whatever.  And by the way, on EPUB, it’s like 128, but for most people that’s a monograph of densely worded, terse, intellectual stuff with footnotes. 00:08:50 And that’s fine.  I’ve read it before, but it’s like that’s not a minor assignment, but this is the way we think.  But – and I love it.  It’s juicy.  It’s like a nice, meaty t-bone, rib eye steak for me.  But I just think that as Americans we take for granted that the move from democracy to – or from monarchy to democracy was a good thing.  And in this book, Democracy, one of the best things about it is the introduction. 00:09:23 And by the way, another great thing that Hoppe has written is the introduction to the revised edition to Rothbard’s Ethics of Liberty, the re-released version in 1997 or 1998 I believe.  The introductions are tour de forces.

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 301. This is my appearance on the Tales from the Crypt bitcoin podcast, Episode 195, with host Marty Bent. From his shownotes: Join Marty as he sits down with Stephan Kinsella to discuss: - State's rights - The Lockdowns - The Constitution - The Government v. The State - Bitcoin didn't ask for permission - Are leftists insane? - Should you vote? - Smart contracts - much more