The Burnt Toast Podcast

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and today my guest is Nicola Salmon.Nicola is a leading voice for fat folks seeking fertility support, and author of the book Fat and Fertile. As a fertility coach and fat activist, Nicola works to challenge the fertility industry’s entrenched weight bias and empower marginalized folks to take control of their reproductive health. (You may know her from Instagram.)The intersection of anti-fatness and infertility is a story I've been covering for over six years now, and depressingly, the situation seems to only be getting worse. I hear from so many of you all the time who are navigating fertility treatment and encountering doctor after doctor who all tell you to lose weight before they'll consider helping you.As I wrote for The New York Times in 2019, this is pretty clear cut medical discrimination—and yet we haven't made much headway in getting clinics to change these policies. If you want more on this whole conversation, check out episode 29 of this podcast, where I talked through all of my reporting and the research on weight and fertility, as it stood at that point. And then go listen to episode two of Cult of Perfect, where we explored the fat mother narrative—and the kind of healthcare that fat moms, and fat pregnant people, get.PS. If you enjoy today’s conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show! And, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)You’re listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice. AND: If you are in the thick of your own fertility journey, and today’s episode doesn't feel good for you to hear, please take good care.Episode 160 TranscriptNicolaI am what I call a fat positive fertility coach, which means specifically that I support fat folks who want to get pregnant in bigger bodies. So that involves lots of different things: Working one-to-one with people, doing courses and basically just getting lots of information out there which fat folks might need, and then navigating the healthcare system when they are looking to get pregnant and maybe not finding that support with their doctors or their clinics. Just doing everything I can to make sure that fat folks have everything they need to get pregnant and don’t feel guilted or shamed or judged in the process.VirginiaWhich is all too common. We know that anti-fatness shows up in every realm of healthcare and fertility seems to be a particular hot spot. I’m curious: Why do you think fertility care is where we see so much medical anti-fat bias?NicolaPeople want this so bad—growing their families, having babies. And I think there is often this lack of control that we have around the process. We cannot control when we ovulate. We cannot tell our bodies, “okay, now’s the time! Go, go, go!” I think because of that lack of control, people are desperately seeking other ways of controlling the process, controlling their fertility, controlling their health somehow. And especially the diet industry, has really got their claws and latched onto that, and they’re offering people a way of being able to control something about the process. Supplementation, dieting, eating foods, cutting out foods, following all of the different things, regimes. I think giving people that element of possibility that they can control and somehow influence this process is what people really hold on to.The diet industry is really feeding into this idea that people need that control, and they really want that control in order to navigate getting pregnant and being able to influence how they navigate that journey. I think the healthcare system is really just playing into that because we have this idea that is our responsibility to somehow fix ourselves as fat people in order to get pregnant. If there are ever any problems, if there are any other issues, then we never get looked at. We never get the test offered. We never get the treatments offered. It’s just, “it’s your weight. You need to do something about that. Go away, sort that out, and then come back when you’ve lost weight.” And I think just all of those combinations of factors have led to this cesspool of fat people not being able to access any kind of fertility support. VirginiaI mean, it completely makes sense. We’re conditioned our whole lives to think this way with whatever is hard in our lives—try to control your weight, try to control how you’re eating and you’ll fix it. Women in particular are given that message from so early, and then, in this most vulnerable time of life where you’re trying to do, as you’re saying, this very hard thing that you have very little direct control over. It’s just a perfect storm.You posted a few months ago that the most common reasons fat folks get stuck trying to get pregnant is because they hesitate to give themselves permission to even try in the first place. NicolaI think it goes back to what you said earlier about the conditioning, right? We are conditioned to believe that we need to be smaller in order to become a parent, and that’s shown in the media. With pregnancy, all you ever see is the very slender person with the beautiful bump. I know so many other incredible folks trying to disrupt this. But still, the general narrative is it’s small people getting pregnant. And that is what we see all over the pregnancy magazines. If you’re in any of the apps, like, it’s just this one person who gets pregnant, which is a thin, white lady. We don’t see any representation. And what that means is that we don’t believe that this is a problem that other people face. So many people I talk to feel so isolated because they don’t see anybody else in bigger bodies getting pregnant, necessarily. They think it’s something to be ashamed to talk about. They don’t want to share that with their friends or with their family because of the judgment that they might get back. It’s just really normalized for people to comment on their bodies and to judge them for wanting to grow their families. I think the thing about permission—with that post, I didn’t want people to think, “Oh my gosh, it’s my fault that I am doing this, like I am not giving myself permission.” This is not something else that we need to beat ourselves up about. It is the social conditioning that has led us to believe that we need to be something different in order to be able to do this and to be worthy of doing this. To give ourselves permission to even go to the doctor, for example, or get tests if things are taking a little while longer than you’d expect. So it is really just giving people the permission to think about that and go, actually, yeah, I’ve been putting this off because I think I need to be smaller and just shining a light on it really.VirginiaIt’s hard to give yourself permission to do something that culture is not giving you permission to do. It’s very, also very tied to our ideas about who will be a good mom and to “maternal fitness.” That phrase gets turned thrown around a lot, which I would like to just send right off into the sea if we could. NicolaOh yes, please. VirginiaSo does that come up for folks you’re working with, too? This fear of, “Can I be a good mom in a bigger body?”NicolaYes, because it’s always this conversation of, “Will you be able to pick up your kids off the floor when they’re little? Or will you be able to play in the park with them and run after them?” And I think it comes from such an ableist place. We believe that only one type of person can be a good parent. And actually, the world is made up of so many millions of different types of humans and I think that’s what makes it really special. I think that we all have different ways that we can contribute in terms of mothering. My size has never held me back from being a great parent for my children. I mean, sometimes I can’t sit on a swing or sometimes I might not be able to fit on the roller coaster, for example. But that’s the swing’s fault. That’s not my fault.Because my body isn’t accommodated, there are ways that I have to be a bit mindful about that if we’re going somewhere that may have restrictions and things that might not accommodate me. But day-to-day life, my kids don’t know any different, right? They understand that I’m their mom. This is my body, and they love me for me. Their lives are no less because of the size of my body. It makes me so cross that so many doctors will tell their patients, oh, it would be unethical for me to try and support you in getting pregnant or you’re doing something irresponsible. That puts that responsibility, that shame, that idea that you need to be fixed in some way on people again and again and again. VirginiaI mean, it’s wild. I think about what we know from parenting research on what makes kids feel safe, happy, what helps kids grow up to be good, contributing members of society. Parent body size is never on the list! I’ve been thinking about this a lot because one of the themes my trolls love to focus on is that I must be a bad parent because I’m in a bigger body. Because being a fat mom is seen as so selfish. I kind of want us to unpack the ableism of that for another minute, because I think that is a core fear that folks are up against, and we want to hold hold that together with what we actually know about what kids need from caregivers.NicolaObviously the biggest one is that kids need safety. Kids need to feel secure, feel a sense of belonging, and feel understood and validated. We are so capable of giving that to our kids. And, it shouldn’t be down to solely us, either. We should have a community around us, and we don’t live in that world really anymore where that is often an option or available. But we should not be the sole provider of all that for our kids. We can all have different parts to play in our children’s lives. I think giving them a variety of adults and humans that they interact with and can get different things from is a really good way of helping them become well rounded adults.VirginiaWhat other barriers do you see fat folks encountering? Maybe you’re getting over the this initial “Am I worthy of this? Can I do this?” piece, and then you actually are going to the doctor. What hurdles are you going to encounter there?NicolaBy far the biggest one is the anti-fat attitudes of the healthcare providers and the policies that are in place, not only with doctors, but with the fertility clinics they work for. That is the biggest barrier that fat folks face, by far. Because there’s nothing often that you can do, individually. Like this is a system-level problem, there are bad policies in place. There are often procedures in place at clinics. There are doctors who’ve had however many years of education that is anti-fat education. It’s really difficult to sometimes navigate that when you’re coming up against doctors time and time and again who have either strict BMI limits or have very anti-fat attitudes around “you need to go and lose X pounds or X kilos.”Not only is that a physical barrier in terms of you can’t physically access the tests and treatments that you might need, but it is exhausting. Mentally, when people are having to have these conversations and the doctors judging them, and putting their nervous systems through appointment after appointment, or even just sending off emails and getting the same response back time and time again. That labor is so exhausting and it’s not labor that people should have to do in order to access basic fertility care.VirginiaHow do you encourage folks to start? What support do we want to get in place as you’re navigating this?NicolaThe first thing is to not assume it’s going to be hard, right?Virginia**I like that. That’s helpful. NicolaIt can feel like a mountain, and when I talk to folks about it, I want people to be fully informed of all the potential pitfalls because I don’t want people to be surprised. But if we go in prepared for the worst, but expecting the best, we could come across a great doctor who’s going to give you everything that you want, and that’s what we want. We want the outcome of being supported, of having evidence-based healthcare, and we just have to be prepared that that might happen. But that also might not happen. So having tools in our back pocket for if that doesn’t happen, what we can do instead. I think it can be really helpful to zoom out as well when you’re getting started and really looking at okay, where does this blame truly lie? I understand that culture has given me this blame of it’s my fault, It’s my body’s fault that maybe I haven’t got pregnant as quickly as I wanted to. But then really zooming out and looking okay, well, what systems are in place that are really to blame?It is the healthcare system that has been based on very racist and anti-fat roots that have led to doctors believing that fatness is bad, that fatness is unhealthy?It is all the researchers who are doing their best as researchers, but also live in the diet culture soup where they truly believe that and make assumptions about fat bodies, which biases the research that they do?It is the people who are doing the procedures and the IVF pioneers, who decided we’re only going to look at IVF in straight sized bodies? We are not going to include fat people when we decide what kind of drug levels we give, how we design the protocols. Because once we leave fat people out, that means it doesn’t work as well for fat people, which makes total sense, right? But you cannot then use the research and go, oh well, it doesn’t work for fat people if you’ve never included them in the first place.There are so many people that are to blame for the fact that you cannot access fertility care, but you are not one of them. I think being able to zoom out and see that bigger picture and see really where you sit in it can be really helpful when your mind kind of goes, oh, it’s my fault. You can get in this spiral of shame, which so many of us do all the time, about so many different things around our bodies. It can be really helpful to be going, okay, I understand why I feel like this. It makes total sense that my brain is telling me all this stuff. And I think reframing it like that can just really help people to go, yes, this is a problem. Yes, it’s not my fault, and still I need to take some responsibility to move forward to make sure that I get the care that I deserve.Which, again, not their labor. Should not be having to do this. But right now, we live in a world where that’s the only choice. It’s that or perform weight loss for a short term to be able to go through the BMI barriers. And I do not judge people for going either way. It’s such a hard place to be in and you just have to make the decision that you have to make that’s best for you. But it, yeah, that is, for me, the first pieces of people being able to move forward with this, really believing that they are worthy of it, because it is not their fault. VirginiaHere in the States, when I reported this out, I found that there was a real difference in private fertility clinics, which can set their own BMI cutoffs, and the BMI cutoffs were sometimes as low as 26. Basically anyone out of the “normal” range, they wouldn’t treat. Versus university or major hospital clinics, like within hospitals and university healthcare systems, which tended to have either no BMI cutoffs or much higher BMI cutoffs and better set up for the care that fat folks need. Like having an anesthesiologist on hand who understood how to do that, and bigger tables and gowns that fit—all the like basic human dignity issues.Is there a similar strategy in the UK that you would recommend? I know the healthcare system is quite different, but I’m just curious if you have any practical advice on, here’s where you might be more likely to find affirming care.NicolaIt’s really tricky because of the way that our healthcare system is set up. We have the NHS, which is a free at point of care healthcare system, which is amazing. But it’s got a finite pot of money, and they are very limited in what they can and cannot do. So anybody with a BMI over 30 doesn’t get to access IVF care under the NHS guidelines, which is low. That’s about a third of people, I think I’ve worked out, that actually get denied based on BMI. We have a couple of, like, big major hospitals, obviously, but they don’t really have the big fertility departments in the same way. They’re often NHS / private. So the same consultants are working under both and what that means is that the anesthesiologists just don’t have the same expertise or because they’re under the NHS most of the time, they don’t have the confidence to be doing these procedures. So we have maybe two or three clinics in the UK that I know of that will go up to a BMI of 40, and that’s it. VirginiaWow. That is dire. NicolaPeople have to go to Europe. That is their only option if they have a BMI over 40, and it’s a great solution for many folks. Like, it’s generally cheaper, even when you include flights and hotel accommodation. Obviously, you get to go to a nice, sunny place, which doesn’t happen here very much in the UK. But obviously it’s not financially accessible to everybody. VirginiaDefinitely not. Like time off work, whatever. NicolaAbsolutely. So it’s hard, right? Navigating language barriers, potentially, and navigating meds across two different countries. It’s not the funnest thing in the world to do, especially when you’re going through such a vulnerable thing like IVF and the the number that it does on your mental health, your physical health, is huge. It’s not a small undertaking to take. It’s wild here and it’s so sad because there are so many people who are missing out because they think that’s the norm. Like, oh, it’s 40, that’s the cutoff. And they may not think to look abroad. They may not think to look anywhere else, and they just believe that that’s not for them, and then they don’t get to grow their families. And I have a list on my website of clinics in the UK and the US that folks can find great BMI limits, but that’s the only way I’ve been able to find to help folks find the resources that they need.VirginiaI’m just sitting with the anti-fatness of that. The NHS, the National Health Service, so the government funded health care that everybody pays for with their taxes. So I’m a taxpayer, but my BMI is 31 or 32 or whatever, I don’t get to access health care through the national health care system. Nicola100%. It’s purely to do with money. It’s nothing else. Like, of course, it’s more socially acceptable to do that. This is the only socially acceptable way that they can exclude people, apart from obviously queer and trans people as well get excluded by this. But, yeah, people accept it because they firmly believe and have been conditioned to believe that it is their fault and they just need to lose the weight and then they can access the healthcare service. But no. And it’s not just fertility. My uncle has just had a heart attack and gone through trying to access a heart bypass. He can’t do that until he’s lost weight. And it’s it makes me so angry.VirginiaYeah, sure, you want to wait on that.NicolaYeah, of course you do. Of course you do. VirginiaDefinitely take 18 months to lose some weight first before we rush to actual life saving medical care. Oh, my God. I mean, obviously the United States, we’re even further behind, because we don’t have very much in the way of socialized healthcare. But that is even more enraging in some ways that you have the system in place, but there’s this bias denying people access to the system they pay for. NicolaIt makes me really angry. But in the US as well, there are some people who, like, geographically, can’t get to a clinic, or they have to travel across states and states to find someone who’ll support them. It’s just wherever you look, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, it is a pretty similarly dire picture, unfortunately. VirginiaCan we talk a little bit about PCOS and the misconceptions around the role of weight loss here?Because obviously PCOS is a a very common underlying reason people are seeking fertility care and there’s this narrative that PCOS causes weight gain and therefore the only solution to PCOS is weight loss. I often see that delaying people’s access to fertility care. You’re then told, like, “go lose weight for a year, then come back and we’ll see,” that kind of thing.NicolaOh, yeah. I have PCOS. I was diagnosed at 16 and I was told I’d never be able to have kids.VirginiaWhat a lovely thing to say to a 16 year old child. NicolaThis was 20-odd years ago now, so it was like, no Internet, no resources, I don’t know anything about PCOS, nothing. And of course it’s like, weight loss will cure it, which makes total sense. PCOS is such a tricky one, because it manifests in so many different ways. I think the problem that fat folks tend to have is that they can often be misdiagnosed with PCOS. A doctor will see your fat body and go, “PCOS.” They won’t do the appropriate testing. They won’t do the appropriate work up to diagnose you properly. You know, heaven forbid they’ve heard of a differential diagnosis. And it can be really harmful for folks to get a diagnosis that’s not helpful to them. They might get put on drugs like metformin and things that may not help them, and they miss having the correct diagnosis. Hypothyroidism, for example, is a really common thing that folks in bigger bodies can experience, and if they’re not getting the appropriate treatment again, that can just delay things even further. But for folks with PCOS, yes, sometimes it can be a co-occurring symptom to have PCOS alongside an increased body mass. But we don’t have any evidence to support the idea that one causes the other. We don’t have any evidence to support the claim that weight loss will support your fertility or your PCOS. What I’ve seen, as a sample size of one, is that not when I diet, not when I lose weight, but when I prioritize things that meet my needs, in terms of supporting my nervous system—reducing my stress levels, getting better sleep—those things have a positive impact on my menstrual regularity. Which makes total sense, right? Because I think for me, what makes sense is that I was on diets from a really, really young age. I was in the phase of low-fat dieting from maybe ages 10 to 12. That was the trend. And it makes total sense to me that being on a very low-fat diet at those ages would impact my hormones, which are made of fats, and would impact how I went through puberty and how my menstrual cycle was set up. VirginiaI want to talk a little bit about the role of menstruation diet culture in all of this. I get press releases all the time for seed cycling, and these plans where you should eat a different set of foods every week of your cycle. You should exercise differently every week of your cycle. All of which sounds exhausting to keep track of! Is any of this useful, or is this all just kind of more of wellness culture’s anti-fatness, pushing weight loss, but calling it something else?NicolaI think it’s maybe a little bit of both. I feel like there is some wisdom that as folks who menstruate, we are never really taught about how our hormones impact our energy levels, how they impact our mood throughout the month. Like I know for me, it was helpful to learn more about how in the first phase of our cycles, from when we bleed to when we ovulate, we have estrogen as the dominant hormone. And the second phase [there is more ]progesterone. It really helped me to lean into knowing that I’ll probably feel a bit more active and be wanting to start projects at the beginning of my cycle, and then at the end. That first phase is when I have more completer energy. And then I find I’m not wanting to do anything when I’m menstruating. But feeling like Superwoman when I’m ovulating. I feel like knowing those things can be really helpful and they do tend to ring true.I think the concept of yes, your body varies over your menstrual cycle with different hormones, makes a lot of sense, and is something that we should all be taught. But then I think diet culture sees anything that’s like, “oh, this is interesting and valuable” and shifts to: How can we manipulate this? How can we profit on this? VirginiaHow can we both optimize and complicate it as much as possible? NicolaBecause of the culture we live in, we’ve been conditioned to break that trust with our bodies. And obviously it starts with food, around not being able to trust our fullness and our hunger cues, not being able to trust what we crave or what we don’t crave to eat, like forcing ourselves to eat specific foods and not others. But I think it goes so much deeper than that.Like for folks in fertility, especially, there is this underlying fear and idea that we can’t trust our bodies to do the very thing that we want them to do, which is to ovulate, to get pregnant, to do all of the steps that lead up in that process. Anything that they can tap into that kind of feeds into this idea of, oh, this is how you can hack your body or fix it in some way. The thing is, our bodies aren’t broken, so we don’t need a quick fix. We don’t need seed cycling to help us with our hormones, because they are so great at doing that on their own. And so many people, fat folks especially, say, “Well, the doctor tells me that because of my weight, my hormones are all over the place.” Yet when they do all the hormone panels, nothing comes back. And I’m like, make it make sense. If there’s some problem with your hormones, if there’s an imbalance somewhere, that’s what the tests are for. To look at the imbalances, see what’s going on, see what the root of the problem is. But if it’s all coming back normal, then how can we say that weight is having an impact on your hormones? VirginiaI like the reframing that you’re suggesting. You’re talking about body literacy, you’re talking about people understanding their bodies and how they work. The diet industry is taking all of this and saying, how can we convince you your body is a problem to solve, and then sell you solutions for it. And that is what doesn’t serve us. Knowing our bodies better serves us. But knowing our bodies better in order to pay other people money to make them smaller does not serve us. NicolaThere are so many apps nowadays for tracking menstrual cycles and tracking where you’re going with that. To some degree, I think it can be helpful. Some data can be really useful. We can use data to inform us and to make decisions about our healthcare. But to track them for months on end, for years on end, getting the same results back? That can be really harmful for our mental health, and it takes you away from the signs and the signals of your body. So sure, we can track our ovulation by looking at our basal body temperature or peeing on a stick. But we can also listen to what our energy is doing, what our mood is doing. Do we notice a change in our cervical mucus? Do we notice a change in our libido? All of these things as well can be really great ways of not only figuring out when ovulation is occurring, but getting back in touch with our body and really understanding and listening. Like you say, body literacy around the cues as to what ovulation feels like for us and how we experience it in our bodies.VirginiaI love that. ButterNicolaSo the thing I am loving most at the moment is having a sports bra that fits and that didn’t cost me the earth. VirginiaA unicorn!NicolaI’ve started doing some more cardio, and I was just dreading moving my body, because I have big breasts, and that’s always the hardest thing for me to find. So I found this website. I got a tape measure, and I was measuring under here, and then I had to bend down and measure how far they hung, and all this stuff. But I actually got a number out, went on to Vinted found a sports bra that was in my size, which was not as easy. I think it was like, 44GG. Found one bra, and it’s amazing. VirginiaOh, that’s wonderful. NicolaIt fits! I didn’t have to go to a shop and be looked up and down and measured by strange people that I don’t know. It just changed the way I’m looking forward to moving my body, because I’m not permanently uncomfortable. It made me realize how hard it was before, because I didn’t have a bra that fit or my trousers would fall down, or the tops if they fall down your shoulders and just constantly adjusting your body. It’s been a revelation, having one single bra that didn’t cost me like $50, $60. VirginiaSo tell us the website you used!NicolaSo the website used for measuring myself was called Boob or Bust, which I think is a brilliant name, and it just walks you through all the measuring, which I loved. And then I found my bra size and went on Vinted and for 10 pounds found a bra that fits. And it felt magical.VirginiaThat is such a good butter, finding a bra that works, whether it’s just for everyday wear or for sports, just always feels like the Holy Grail.NicolaYeah, it really does.VirginiaMy Butter is just a sweet, fun recommendation for reading with kids or even on your own. I just reread the Winnie the Pooh series with my younger child, who is six. It was our bedtime read for several weeks and it was so magical and so sweet. I think everyone knows Winnie the Pooh. I’m not lsuggesting anything totally revolutionary here. But what I had forgotten about Winnie the Pooh is that Winnie the Pooh is fat and very proud of eating lots of honey and not at all apologetic or ashamed about that. And his friends are very accepting of him! It’s actually a pretty fat positive text. There is a scene where he gets trapped in the door leaving Rabbit’s house, and they have to diet him to get him out. And I was like, how am I going to handle this scene? Because this is not the not the greatest. But it led to a great conversation with my kid. There’s a line where Pooh says, “it all comes from doors not being big enough.” And it’s sort of played as a joke in the book. They’re like, “no Pooh you need to get slimmer.” But I said, “What do you think about that?” And my kid was like, “Well, why isn’t the door big enough for him?” So what a great chance to talk about anti-fat bias in the built environment. Of Rabbit’s home in the Hundred Acre Woods.NicolaOh, I love that. VirginiaIt’s not a perfect book, not shockingly for a book written in the 1920s or whatever. It’s not a radical fat positive text, but Pooh just is actually a great fat character. And you can use it as a jumping off point to talk about anti-fatness with your kids in a very charming low-key, low stakes, low pressure way. Because everybody loves Pooh and is rooting for him. And the writing is just so funny and charming and wonderful. It’s a book I grew up reading. My mom read them to me when I was little. And when my older child was in the hospital, it was a book I read to her a lot, and it was kind of like our comfort read. So we’re very attached to Pooh.NicolaOh, I love that. I do remember reading the Pooh books when I was little and loving them but I haven’t read them with my kids yet. VirginiaWhat I will say is, I think, because they’re about stuffed animals coming to life, people often think that they’re good books to read to little, little kids. And the writing is actually fairly sophisticated. So I would suggest waiting. My kids are 6 and 10 right now, and even the 10-year-old would come and listen. She wouldn’t admit she was participating in bedtime reading, because she’s very cool. But she’d be like, in the background. NicolaOh, I love that.VirginiaSo I think they actually skew a little older, and it’s okay to wait on them, but then they’re a really delightful experience. Well, Nicola, this was wonderful. Thank you so much. Tell folks where we can follow you and how we can support your work.NicolaYeah, so I’m generally on Instagram. My handle is fat positive fertility, and my website is Nicola Salmon, which is where I share all the courses that I do, all the work that I do over there. I’m always happy to get a DM in my inbox, if anybody has got any questions or anything so happy to chat. VirginiaSo appreciate your labor. Really wonderful. Thank you.NicolaThank you.

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your September Extra Butter! Today we are discussing... dating as a fat person! We'll get into navigating the apps, Corinne's rules for first dates, and why do so many cishet men post fishing pictures. If you are already an Extra Butter subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon. Otherwise, to hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to join Extra Butter.PS. Don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.CorinneI’m really excited about our topic for today.VirginiaI’m so nervous about our topic for today.CorinneThere’s nothing to be nervous about. We’re going to talk about dating. And just to be clear, both of us are single. Slide into our DMs. 

Nisha Sharma, a captivating romance author known for 'Marriage & Masti', dives into the pressing issues of body representation in the romance genre. She discusses the underrepresentation of fat bodies and the striking absence of fat male love interests. Nisha critiques the industry's biases and advocates for genuine inclusivity in storytelling. The conversation also touches on the challenges authors face with marketing fat characters and the role of societal perceptions shaped by medical trends. A refreshing take on love, identity, and narrative evolution!

The hosts dive into the anxieties parents face about their children's body image and eating habits. They advocate for unconditional acceptance of body sizes and a healthy relationship with food. Personal anecdotes reveal the intricacies of snack sharing and portion control in family life. Discussions also touch on the comfort versus fashion dilemma, particularly with clogs, and the journey toward more comfortable bras. Expect laughter and insights on navigating diet talks while promoting self-acceptance and joy in culinary choices!

In this enlightening discussion with Laura Thomas, PhD, a Registered Nutritionist specializing in anti-diet culture, she reframes our understanding of ultra-processed foods (UPFs). Laura tackles the misconceptions around UPFs, emphasizing their role in modern family dining and the importance of context. She delves into how UPFs relate to body image issues and societal structures affecting food choices. Personal anecdotes add warmth, showcasing the joy found in family traditions like birthday trees and simple meals. It's a fresh take on nutrition that celebrates ease and connection.

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!This month we’re unpacking content from Rosey Beeme, Brianne Huntsman, and other influencers who long identified as body positive, plus size fashion folks—and now are talking proudly about their intentional weight loss journeys. But it’s not a moral failing if you can’t wipe your own ass.CW: This episode includes some unavoidable discussion of intentional weight loss and links to posts that promote it. Take care of yourselves!To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier.In these monthly episodes we get into the GOOD stuff like:Why all the fat influencers are getting skinnyIs Kids Eat In Color anti-diet?And did Virginia really get divorced over butter?And Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details)PS. If Extra Butter isn’t the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription.Extra Butter Episode 6 TranscriptThis episode includes affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!CorinneAre you ready? We’re tackling a big one today.VirginiaThat we have been ambivalent about tackling, I want to say. Especially you? You have been ambivalent.CorinneI have been ambivalent. It’s a tough topic, but a lot of you have asked us to talk about this.So we’re going to talk about plus size influencers, Ozempic, and intentional weight loss.VirginiaThe Rosey Beeme of it all.

Lyz Lenz, author of the thought-provoking newsletter Men Yell at Me, dives into her inspiring journey post-marriage in her new book, This American Ex-Wife. She critiques societal norms around marriage, emphasizing personal happiness over duration. The conversation touches on the systemic challenges single parents face and the historical context of marriage's patriarchal roots. Lenz also shares her personal triumphs in embracing solitude and empowerment, illustrating how finding joy in independence reshapes life after divorce.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your July Indulgence Gospel!We’ll be getting into:Millennial vs Gen Z feelings about socksHow to even begin a closet reorganization projectWhat to do when the roller coaster doesn’t fit your body.And so much more!This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today I’m chatting Anita Bhagwandas, author of Ugly: Giving Us Back Our Beauty Standards.Anita is an award winning journalist who explores beauty culture, unpicks aesthetic standards, and questions how pretty privilege holds the power to shape so much of our lives. Anita also writesThe Powder Room, is a beauty columnist for The Guardian, and a freelance beauty director at Conde Nast Traveler. She lives in London. I really loved talking to Anita about the origins of so many specific beauty standards, some of which you might already think you know, but a lot of which was new even to me, a person who does think about beauty standards pretty often. I also took Anita on my chin hair acceptance journey, and we talk about the absolute dumbest beauty purchase I have ever made.Ugly is available in the Burnt Toast Bookshop!Don’t forget, you can always take 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk from Split Rock Books! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)(Non-US listeners, here are all the links for you to find it.)PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)Episode 152 TranscriptVirginiaSo I got to read Ugly when it first came out in the UK and adored it. The book goes very deep into the origins of our beauty standards. What surprised you the most about how we’ve come to value the specific physical traits and characteristics that we have been taught to value?AnitaThere was so much that surprised me. I thought I was very well-versed in all of this, I’ve always had an interest in obviously beauty, but also the history of beauty. There were definitely so many things that just made me think, “Oh my God, if everyone knew this, I don’t think they would hate their bodies, or their faces, hate their appearance in the way that they do.” In the way that I know I had, for most of my life. I think was one of the most surprising things is how thinness is linked to race. I looked through various journals and books and old texts to look at where this came from—and lots of people have written about this as well. There are old references that specifically talk about in that era where colonization is still a very big part of the British Empire, etc. It’s almost like things are starting to shift a bit and you can tell that there’s something going on and essentially all the descriptions of people of color in the colonies were quite nice up until a point and I think there is a point where maybe Britain thinks they’re about to lose some of their control or something is happened, that it that all of those descriptions switched to being really just derogatory and positioning white beauty above everything.You see it in the art of the time, you see it in all of these texts, you see it in these very famous books written by people at the time. You see it everywhere. And I think, if people knew that [our thin ideal] was so, so closely linked to colonization, I think they would be shocked. Because I know that when I heard that—and I had always known there was a link. But I think once you read the specifics, you’re like, wow, this is wild. This just blows my mind. So yeah, I think that was a really big one for me.VirginiaWe have a parallel and equally depressing and dark story in the States about how the end of slavery led to the same kind of transitioning of language and doubling down on negative descriptions of Black folks’ bodies. It’s just fragile white people trying to hold onto power in both scenarios. That’s the root of all of this. It is a lot to sit with.AnitaIt’s one of those things that we have to know. Because, probably everyone who is listening to this and listens to your podcast hasn’t signed up for that. They don’t agree with that. So, you know, it is just going okay, wait, you know, what is my obsession with thinness? What is my obsession with dieting? It makes me complicit in something I don’t believe in and I don’t stand for.And I think that for me, it was a real turning point.VirginiaHow do you think about navigating our complicity in that? Because it’s hard. On the one hand, we can say, “None of this is my values. None of this is what I want to replicate.” And yet, these standards have such a hold on us. The stakes of not participating in thinness and beauty culture can feel so high. AnitaI don’t think we should beat ourselves up about these things. I don’t think we should be horrible to ourselves about these things. These beauty standards have come as a result of years and years of levels of oppression and forces that have tried to control us. So, I think that’s the first thing, is having a bit of compassion towards ourselves. But then also looking at how you can unpick those narratives and make some decisions for yourself that are truly, as much as we can, based in what you really believe and what you really think. I had thought my entire life that if I was thin, everything will be okay. Because that’s what we’re sold, right? We’re sold that if you’re thin, you’re successful, you’re rich, you’re pretty, you’re popular, you get everything. That’s the narrative we’ve all been sold. And there was a real point for me, I think it was probably about 10 years ago, I just went, “I actually don’t want to be thin.” And this is no shade to anyone who is really thin, because all body types are beautiful. But I was just like, “For me, I don’t actually want to look like that. If I’m honest with myself, I actually don’t want to look like that.” I think it was the first time I’d actually tuned into what I wanted. And it was really liberating. Because then when I was working out, I wasn’t working out to be thinner. It was working out to improve my strength or whatever it is. It was just a real shift for me to actually pick what I wanted and pick you know, pick to celebrate my body and pick to actually celebrate the something that wasn’t the sort of standard beauty ideal. VirginiaWe’ve been sold a certain aesthetic so much, and so often that the idea of your preferences being something different—you just assume that’s what you want, right? How do you look at what you actually want?For example, I’m not a big makeup wearer and I notice whenever I go through phases of wearing more makeup, I start to expect my face to look the way it looks in makeup. And then if I stop wearing makeup, there’s a rocky dismount period and then I go back to being like “This is my face and I’m fine with this.” AnitaI’ve had that experience with makeup, too. Even though I’m critical of beauty culture and the beauty industry, I love makeup and I love self-expression. I like playing with different things versions of myself. And I know I’ve experienced this, where I have become addicted wearing really, really thick, heavy makeup. And then it’s almost like, when the seasons change and I have to go without any makeup on, without anything done to it, it is fine. I try and have a day, usually on a Sunday, where I will try not to wear any makeup or do anything and just go out and be that in the world. To be okay to go meet your friends for brunch or whatever and challenge yourself to be the same level of confident as you would be fully made up. It’s really hard at the start. And then it starts to normalize. And it starts to be a choice, which I think is the really key thing.VirginiaDo you feel like going out is an important part of it? My first instinct would be like, well, sure, when I’m just hanging out at home watching TV, who cares? But that is then reinforcing the idea that it’s okay to look a certain way without an audience. But if there’s any kind of external gaze, you have to make changes. AnitaI think it depends on your level of comfort. For some people even being at home without makeup on or their hair done or whatever it happens to be, would be really, really challenging. So if this is something you want to try, start at your level of confidence. It might just be that you don’t wear a certain thing that you always wear outside one day a week or one day a month. And I think you can almost build it up. It almost just helps decondition you to thinking you have to look a certain way. Then it becomes more of a choice. And I think that is more of an empowering place to be in.VirginiaWe should name, too, that it’s safer for some of us to experiment with this than others, right? Folks in fat bodies know that they’ll get treated worse if they show up looking sloppy. People of color experience this as well. There is the stuff that we’re working on inside and then there are the realities of the external world, right? AnitaThat’s definitely something I’ve experienced as a person of color. My parents moved from India to the UK. I had it drilled into me from a very young age that I always had to look presentable. As I got into my teen years, my mum would always say, “Go put some makeup on.” It’s constantly trying to look like you’re part of society, like you’re worthy of being in society. And that does come with challenges because the outside world does discriminate and it does treat us badly.I guess it’s looking at how comfortable you feel within to resist that. And that’s really different for everyone. And I guess if you can resist that safely and in a way that doesn’t harm you. In a way, I think that could be a really positive thing.VirginiaEven just being clear when you do decide the armor is necessary, it can be helpful to be clear on, “this feels necessary for safety.” Because that’s still putting some distance between you and the standard. AnitaThat’s really helpful. I think that could be really good for people who feel like they definitely need that. That’s a really useful way to frame it.VirginiaI’m just thinking about your mom—she was doing that to keep you safe. It was rooted in love, even though it was also constricting.AnitaYeah, absolutely.VirginiaI love the section in the book where you run down this whole list of questions you ask yourself before buying a face massaging device.AnitaThat script is really helpful because despite knowing how the Internet works, social media, the beauty industry, ads—despite being in that and knowing how that works, I still find myself clicking on things and going to buy things very impulsively. I’ve also got ADHD and quite high on the impulsive scale. If I’m not careful, I will buy into the promise of some thing that says it’s going to change my life. Maybe you feel this too, but I feel like I’m being sold to constantly when I don’t want to. Particularly on TikTok I find this quite hard. I feel like I’m just being sold to. And I just wish there was a button to turn it off. The technique I have coined for myself is to just give myself some boundaries if I do want to impulse buy something that I think will change my life in some way. And at the point, when I was writing the book, I gave the example of a face massaging sort of tool that said it was going to help tighten and tone your skin. And I was like, oh my God, I want that. Like, it was my first thought that I want to tighten and tone my skin. VirginiaAdd to cart. AnitaAnd then I was like, wait a minute. And then I talked myself down a bit and talked myself out of this place of anxiety—because that’s where that was coming from—that I need that to fix this thing that actually isn’t really a problem. It didn’t bother me a minute before I saw this ad for it. I was cool a  minute ago.VirginiaI hadn’t been plagued by my lack of tone. It was all fine.AnitaThen all of one minute later, I’m like, I’m so withered. It’s to take you out of that frame and to just go, okay, why do I want this? So there is a series of questions in the book. Starting with: Why do I want this? Maybe I do really, really want it. But I only saw it a minute ago, so I probably don’t really want it that much. Then it’s sort of just probing into why that could be. And quite often for me personally—and this might be different for different people—when I keep going, why do you want this? What’s the real reason? And you keep digging, layer by layer by layer, underneath all of that initial impulse, quite often for me, it comes down to I’m really tired. I feel like shit and I actually just need some sleep. I look in the mirror, like, oh, I look tired, I probably just need a bit more sleep. I think that’s probably true for a lot of people, particularly women. We have so many different roles in society, we probably just need a bit more sleep. So that will save you a ton on anti-aging creams and de-puffing products and all of that. Let’s just have some sleep.VirginiaAnd how depressing that buying this device feels more doable somehow than reorganizing your life to get more sleep consistently. That’s a whole other thing.AnitaMost of the best self care and wellness stuff that you can do is free.But it’s a bit of investigation to find out what’s really going on. And quite often it is something else. Maybe you’re trying to distract yourself from something, maybe you’ve had a fight with somebody and you feel shit and you need to pick me up or whatever it happens to be. And there is almost always something. And, you know, when sometimes there’s not, in which case, what I tend to do is put it on a list. And then I’ll revisit that in a certain time period. That can be different for everyone. It could be a month, it could be a week, it could be three months. VirginiaInstituting that pause is so helpful. AnitaThe pause is amazing. I have to do this with everything I buy, because I am so impulsive. I have to put it on a list and come back to it. Otherwise I would just be in tons of debt. So yeah, I think that’s a really helpful way to take the pressure and anxiety out of stuff. And if you still want it in a month, if you can afford it, you’ve done your research, you think it’s going to work, whatever, cool, go for it. And you’ve used up everything you’ve got at home, as well! I think that’s a crucial thing. Quite often we might have something that we could use at home instead of whatever this new thing is. That saves us money, saves the planet, etc. It’s good to use those things up before you go and buy something new, like a new serum that promises it’s going to take 10 years off your whatever—which is never going to happen in a serum. VirginiaOkay, I have to tell you about my purchase that I should have put through all of these filters. AnitaCall me next time. VirginiaMy most embarrassing beauty purchase. There we go. There’s the headline of this episode.So I have a lot of chin hair that I manage. My part-time job is managing my facial hair. And I’ve tried laser, but it’s expensive and you have to drive to the place and it’s such a project to keep up with it. So, mostly I shave it but then sometimes when I’m shaving, I get breakouts, and then I’m like I should just embrace this but I’m just not there on my chin hair acceptance journey. So Julia Marcum, from Chris Loves Julia, recommended this product called Nood. Have you seen this? It’s a handheld laser you plug in at home and you can zap your whole face. And it was $199. I’m not proud of this. In a moment of weakness, I purchased it. And I used it for six months and…nothing. Zero reduction in hair growth. Nothing. I just was like, “What happened there, Virginia?”And now it’s just sitting in my bathroom mocking me because I can’t donate it because it doesn’t work. Do you know what I mean? I can’t pass it on to someone else and be like, maybe it’ll work for you. Like, it probably won’t. I don’t think it works for anybody.Thank you for hearing my confession.AnitaSee, it’s so disappointing! I definitely have had experiences in my life where I thought “This one thing is going to be, amazing. It’s going to change everything.” And then it just doesn’t.VirginiaEven though the influencer said it would on TikTok!AnitaI mean, was she being paid to tell you that? I’m sure it was at least an affiliate link.VirginiaAbsolutely. Of course. I know this. And if I had done your process—I don’t think it was tiredness, exactly. But I do think it was just a feeling of flatness. And also, this is a chore and I would love it to be easier. I was like, well, it’s $200. But that’s so much cheaper than laser at the dermatologist. And there were just a lot of hopes and dreams that weren’t realized. And at the end of the day, I would love to unpack my issue with that beauty standard, but that’s hard work too.AnitaIt’s really hard. I have had those those hairs lasered off myself and it’s really tough. I think we have to have a bit of compassion with ourselves for these things. Because there are so many people that have grown out hair in different places. And that’s really cool. But there are some things that are so hardwired into us. And we are all in different places in our lives. Generationally, I think people have different experiences with this as well, because I think each generation has a very strong set of sort of beauty parameters that we have been sold and indoctrinated with. It can be really hard to step outside of these norms. There are people that do and that’s awesome. I think they’re really inspiring. But it can be really hard and I don’t necessarily think we have to push ourselves to do that. We don’t have to feel bad about those things. So if the hairs are there, you don’t have to feel bad about that. Then it becomes a choice to actually remove them. But, you know, in a way that actually doesn’t waste your money. VirginiaYeah, at least don’t buy products off the internet that are not going to work. Probably just shell out for laser or keep using the little face razors. AnitaLaser has made a massive difference for me. I guess as a side note, I was plucking them out and it was causing loads of hyperpigmentation on my dark skin. The laser was actually a real game changer. And because I would find myself sort of playing with them in a meeting. I was like, What am I doing? And then I realized I was, stroking my chin hairs.VirginiaI do it all the time! But it’s a hard thing to talk about. That’s the thing. Often you feel so vulnerable even admitting you have this “beauty problem” because our belief systems around these beauty standards are so entrenched that then the only people who want to talk to you about it are the people who want to sell you a solution. And that’s tricky. AnitaConversations like this and normalizing things like this, I think are really important. Definitely when I was a junior beauty editor and beauty journalist I had never heard anyone admit to having chin hair or any of those things. And it is those honest conversations that make us go, oh, I’m not alone. It’s not such a bad thing. I’m not a freak. I’m not this. I’m not that. I’m not ugly. VirginiaI just have a face. And human faces grow hair. AnitaI just have a little furry face and that’s cool.VirginiaI’d love to also hear a little more about working as a beauty editor. I spent years in women’s magazine trenches here. I wasn’t in beauty but I was in health and wellness, which is very beauty-adjacent. What are your thoughts about having navigated the beauty industry from inside it? And now as a critic of it? Is there anything you look back on and you think, well, that was wild that we did that? Or is there anything that you feel like this was actually really valuable but we need to do it in a different framing?AnitaThis is something I’m asked about a lot, you know, is there anything I regret writing, stuff like that? I think particularly for journalists, they probably you know, as time goes on, there are things you probably regret writing. VirginiaOh, for sure. AnitaI think in pursuit of being funny, I definitely was a little unkind about people in features, as a bit of a joke. You know, like celebrities. And we’re in an era now where we don’t say things like that about people. It was a different time. In terms of the actual content, I think there was only one time that I felt like it was out of sync with what I believed in really. It was when I actually worked on a health magazine, so I was a beauty and health editor at Women’s Health. None of it was sitting right with me. And I it took me ages to work out what that feeling was. And it was because number one, I was the only plus-sized person on the team of this big health and wellness magazine. I was one of the few people of color and the only plus-size person.And, you know, we were writing about losing weight and macros and all of this stuff. Keto was huge then, when I was on that magazine. All of these things were normalized. A lot of our content was about cutting calories. When I looked at some of the cover lines, they really stayed with me because I just find them wild now, because they feel so out of date. There was one—I mean, it’s terrible but it was quite funny at the time. But it was like, “tapas that won’t give you a fat ass” or something like that. Which is actually slight genius.VirginiaThe magazine editor in me is like, so good. And then the fat activist in me is like, no.AnitaAnd I remember thinking, Oh God. I remember being in a meeting and someone quite senior, a man, was talking about fat. And I just remember going, “But I’m fat.” And I just felt so out of place. I think that if I could go back in time, I think that was probably not the right place for me. It didn’t feel like a right fit. I didn’t feel empowered doing it. It was a shame. I did I actually, when I was there, I did do quite a lot of content around being plus size, etc. But annoyingly I did do it from a weight loss place, because I was very much still in that zone. It was before those conversations were being had. And although I was pushing for that internally, and I’d always push for those things wherever I worked. I look back on that and I’m like, That was not me. That didn’t feel empowering to me or anyone else actually. And I felt a little empty, I have to say. I’ve been lucky in that everywhere I have worked, generally speaking, apart from those very early jobs, I have been able to have a voice to a certain extent. Or I haven’t had to do too much that has jeopardized anything for me morally. I’ve always pushed to have diversity and inclusivity. I’ve always pushed to make things real. Wherever I have been able to control that, I have tried to do that. It’s been tricky, though, when I do look back and I’m like, that was not great.VirginiaI have a million of those stories, too. I also think these big mainstream media outlets are reaching huge audiences. Anything we can do from inside that space to push the conversation in a better direction is also valuable. So it’s that push/pull.And obviously, at a certain point, I was like, okay, I’ve pushed and pulled too much and I’m done. But I still think it’s hugely important to get the conversations into those spaces. It’s a both/and for me. AnitaI think I got to a point where I felt like I was swimming upwards and I was like, I have got no more fight left in me. I cannot.This is slightly a side note, but I remember actually drawing a diagram, like diagramming a picture of levels of oppression to have to explain intersectional feminism to an editor. And I was just like, No. Can’t do this. I thought I’d reached the peak of awful women’s magazine. I was like, I’m out. I can’t do this anymore. I shouldn’t have to do this.VirginiaI shouldn’t have to justify my existence in this way.I’d love to hear how working on the book has changed your own relationship with beauty. I mean, obviously, it’s part of this professional evolution, but personally as well. AnitaOne of the things in particular was just how much cosmetics, how the cosmetic surgery industry came about. I had no idea. To tell a very short version of the story: Post-World War II there were a huge amount of surgeons with nothing really to do. So they all were looking for work because they had fixed everyone that needed fixing from the war. They needed something to do to make money because they’d all trained in surgery. So they went, okay, what can we do? We’re going to manufacture some anxieties and try and fix those instead. Virginia“If only the war had given us more casualties we could have worked on.” AnitaI mean, they still would have gotten done with those at some point, and turned towards fixing women and making us more anxious.VirginiaThat is a depressing origin story.AnitaBut fascinating because we don’t know that. I didn’t know that as a beauty journalist. I think just knowing some of that history can really give you perspective on things.Because we are told, you know, “love yourself” and like “self love” and like “do some affirmations in the mirror,” etc. And that’s all great. But for me, I had been doing that for ages. And I’ve had loads of therapy and nothing had helped until I went back into history to find out: Why did that happen? Why has this become a thing? Because at some point, someone must have decided this was a thing. It was better to be lighter skinned, it was better to be thin, it was better to be young, etc. So where do all of those things come from? So in the book, I’m almost learning these things with the reader. And it was just light bulb moment after light bulb moment. They all sort of sit together quite well. By the time I’ve done all the research and come out of that process, I was like, Oh my God, I feel like I have to rethink everything I ever thought about beauty and beauty standards, because there is so much here. I think the thing that really struck me was actually just how much I didn’t know, even though I thought I knew a lot. And I think a lot of people, probably a lot of your listeners, we all think we know where this came from or why this happens. And actually reading those specifics can be really valuable.VirginiaIt’s a little bit like how we all think we know the models are photoshopped. But when they do studies, they see that the photoshopping still impacts us. Even though we think we know what’s happening, we don’t know the extent of it and it still gets in your brain. So I think that’s like on a meta level what you were doing, like oh, yeah, I think I understand this and then it’s like, holy shit, there’s so much more.AnitaAs a modern example, I feel like if people saw what some people do for their pictures—celebrities, people who are in the limelight, influencers, etc. If people saw what they did to their pictures, they would probably be shocked. I don’t know, maybe in this day and age, people expect that but we still don’t know when you look at something for a tenth of a second, particularly with celebrities. I think a lot of people do really unfairly hold themselves up against celebrities and I know this firsthand being a beauty editor and having interviewed hundreds of celebrities.There is so much that goes on to make a celebrity look how they look. Like, they do not arrive on a set looking the way they do at the end. And that’s no shade. They look great but there is a long process of transformation. And  that comes from wealth, the privilege of wealth. I think we do often hold ourselves up to really unrealistic expectations and role models.VirginiaNot to make this just about my continued chin hair acceptance journey, but because I have a feeling this question will come up in the comments: Is there a similar backstory that people don’t really understand about why facial hair on women is so stigmatized? I’m just curious if there was anything you came across in your research that helped connect those dots.AnitaThe story with body hair and underarm hair, I think is quite interesting. There was a certain point where leg hair and underarm hair, some people removed it, some people didn’t. But it wasn’t taboo until around the 1920s, where the fashion silhouette changes. But within that, Gillette launched a women’s razor, because they had conquered the male market and everyone had a razor, the old steel razor. It really seemed like if anyone had a razor, it was probably a Gillette razor. It was this really well made proper razor,VirginiaYou didn’t need to buy a new one every month. AnitaThere’s only so many of those you need. So they were like, oh, what can we do? Similar with the cosmetic surgery? What can we do next? Who can we target next? And then they were like, women. Okay, so what are we going to do with women? We’re going to shame them about their armpits. We’re going to shame them about their legs and make that a taboo. So there are quite a lot of stories of those things in beauty.There is another one which is shampooing the hair. It was essentially people washing their hair once a week, and then all of a sudden, to sell more shampoo, this myth was created around us needing to wash our hair more, and to buy more shampoo. So yeah, there are quite a lot of stories like that.VirginiaAnd the only reason we can shampoo less frequently now is if you’re doing an elaborate curly girl regimen where you need 12 products, so you’re still going to buy more things. I guess one top line question to always ask ourselves is: Who created the market for this? Because it is a market that was created. It’s not an actual flaw that needs to be addressed.AnitaI think most of those things that we don’t feel okay about or that we’ve been shamed for, that are shameful within society, have been manufactured by somebody. That somebody is quite often patriarchy. A lot of those ad companies, most of those companies, were owned by men. There were lots that weren’t actually, particularly makeup, but a lot of those companies were owned and run by men. The ad agencies were almost certainly run by men. That’s one system of oppression that was definitely very present and still is. And then there are lots of different ones on top of that, when we think about class and how that is so woven into beauty in a way that we don’t really think about.The tanning example is actually a really interesting one. Because there’s that flip. People talk about it all the time as an interesting anecdote, of Coco Chanel, she was on a yacht and she got a sunburn. And all of a sudden, people went from not wanting to have a tan because it signified that you worked outside and were of a lower class, to it being cool. But the flip side was because of the industrialization that was happening at the time, people who were inside were now taking leisure time outside and people who were out working outside were now working inside in factories. It does all come back to class.That narrative still lingers. I have so many friends who look in the mirror and go oh, I look so pale. I look pasty.  And I always think that’s really interesting. You don’t think your skin tone looks okay. You don’t think you look well? Why is that? Because we’ve been sold golden skin. Not dark skin. Not naturally dark skin, however, because that is still not aspirational. But that lightly tanned, in the sun glow, we’ve been sold because it’s linked to wealth. There are just so so many things that have become part of our society and our narrative that actually really do come back to class and I think that’s really fascinating. VirginiaOh, that is really mind blowing. There’s so much there. Well, the book is fantastic. I’m so excited for folks to check it out. ButterAnitaIf I think about the thing that I’ve really enjoyed most recently, there was a really brilliant British photographer and she’s actually passed away now, sadly. And her work is sort of just becoming seen for the first time, in a public way. There’s actually a documentary about her that I think everyone can access. If you are in the UK, it’s on the BBC at the moment. And her name is Tish Murtha. She was a photographer from the 1970s to 1990s and was a real activist. She grew up in working class Newcastle in the UK in a time where there was a huge economic issues. People were really deprived. It was a really, really awful time. She documents the reality of working class life, and the way she captures subjects is incredible. Because she’s one of those people, she really is able to embed herself in communities. I just think the work is beautiful. Very definitely worth checking out because she is this undiscovered, amazing sort of genius. VirginiaOh, these are incredible. I had never heard of her and I’m so excited to learn more about her. This is wonderful.My Butter is actually also photo-related, but not professional, brilliant photography. But something I’ve been doing recently is making a point to print out more casual photos. I don’t know if you have this as much in the UK, but in the US, there is a very big culture here around having professional family photos taken where you all dress up in cute outfits. We did that for a few years when my kids were little and then they were just absolutely not available for it anymore. So I hadn’t printed out any family photos in the last few years.And I was like, well, first of all, we all have an iPhone. So we all take good photos all the time. And I love some of the professional ones we’ve done with a photographer friend, they’re beautiful. But they don’t capture who my kids are, or who I am, on a day-to-day basis. And so I have been going back in my Instagram and my phone archives and just pulling out some random ones and getting them printed. And it is bringing me so much joy to have these very imperfect, candid shots. They remind me more of the family photos I would have had growing up.And I am not wearing makeup or anything. Like, there’s a real ignoring of beauty standards because a lot of them are like, we took this in bed one morning or whatever. I’m just here to say we need to get some of those photos off our phones and into our lives because it’s really, really special to have them. I think particularly for moms, there’s a big erasure of moms from photos often. Like we’re often the ones taking the photos, we’re not in the photos. So make a point to get yourself in photos and then print them out and have them up.AnitaYeah, that’s really lovely. Actually, as a side note, on my 40th birthday, I took a random old school disposable 35 millimeter camera out with me, and gave it to one of my friends. And I was like, just take some pictures of people. VirginiaI love that. AnitaAnd I got these pictures back and it was so joyful. It felt like taking pictures in the 90s. As a result of that, I bought a proper, it’s actually a Lomography camera that does all like the mad color and light leaks and stuff like that. But I actually bought myself a manual camera to take take proper pictures again. And I bought a Polaroid as well because I was like, this is so joyful to capture a moment like this in the actual moment. VirginiaYeah, and with old school cameras like that, you can’t look at your phone and then pick the one that came out best. You just get what you get. I was trying to explain that to my kids. Like, back in the day we’d have like 20 pictures on a camera and they just couldn’t wrap their brains around that. Now I want to try that, too, and bring back the candid not at all styled photos. Really joyful. So, Anita this was fantastic. Thank you so much for being here. Just tell folks how we can follow your work and how we can support you. AnitaAbsolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been such a such a lovely chat. You can follow me on Instagram at itsmeanitab and the same on TikTok. And my Substack isThe Powder Room.VirginiaFabulous. And we will of course link to the book which is called Ugly. ---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!🧈🧈🧈It’s time for your July Extra Butter! Today we are discussing the intersection of sobriety and diet culture—and taste testing a whole bunch of mocktails! 🍹🍹🧈To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier.In these monthly episodes we get into the GOOD stuff like:Why all the fat influencers are getting skinnyIs Kids Eat In Color anti-diet?And did Virginia really get divorced over butter?Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details)PS. If Extra Butter isn’t the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription.Extra Butter Episode 5 TranscriptCorinneToday we are doing something really exciting: We’re going to try some non-alcoholic beverages! And, we’re going to talk a little bit about sobriety and sobriety culture, as two non-sober people.VirginiaThis idea came about because we did an Indulgence Gospel episode a few months ago where someone asked for our favorite non-alcoholic beverages. We were both like, “seltzer water?” But everyone in the comments started suggesting really good stuff. We were like, “We need to try a bunch more of these.” So that’s the fun part where we’re going to be taste testing—and linking everything, of course.  We’re also really interested in how sobriety culture intersects with diet culture, so we’re going to talk about that quite a bit, too. I want to be very, very clear right off the top: We are pro-sobriety, whether you need it, whether you just want it. We think sobriety is awesome. But we do think there’s a conversation to be had about the marketing and messaging in this space, which can veer into diet culture territory fast. So that’s the focus today.Okay, are we ready to try our first one?