Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

We discuss how modern progressive culture glorifies losing self-control, pursuing pleasure/happiness as the highest aim in life, and avoiding discomfort. We contrast this with historical and conservative values around self-mastery, overcoming fear/anxiety, and finding meaning by improving future generations. We argue the progressive view diminishes human potential and actual happiness.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] humans don't actually feel that much happiness.And so when you get out and you attempt to maximize your own personal pleasure, You have a deep realization of how trivial your life and existence is every single day. Yeah. Because you are experiencing everything good that you have brought to the world. And it's thisSimone Collins: fleeting, actually not terribly satisfying feeling.Malcolm Collins: Life is about not cultivating positive emotional states, not the things that evolved into us, but intergenerational improvement, this expansion of human potentialityin truth, doing whatever you want, whenever you feel like it does not cultivate human potential, it diminishes it.It is sand on a fire. but what's really interesting is that an individual who lives for hedonism.will always be less happy than an individual who lives for something else. the only real happiness you will ever experience is efficacious living your [00:01:00] values. Yeah. And if those values are happiness, then you'll never experience true happiness in your life.And so many people was in this far progressive movement, never do.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: This topic is an interesting one. Speaking of me losing self control right now, which is. Self control is seen in some ways as sinful within the urban monoculture in our society today, which some people identify with the progressive movement. I mean, that's largely what they're fighting for the urban monoculture.To tell an individual you should not do that thing. When that thing that they are doing doesn't directly cause any negative impact on another person is seen as. A sinful thing to do. Now what's interesting is is it is even seen as sinful if that thing causes them negative consequences in the future So if I say something like do not eat that thing and and and because you'll get fat [00:02:00] and You will feel bad about that in the future that scene is a bad thing to to tell someone to notify them of that reality This is The haze movement and everything like that.And I could go deep on the haze movement in an episode. It's really interesting for people aren't familiar as the healthy at every size movement. And it's the movement that's gotten really big around saying thatSimone Collins: no pun intendedMalcolm Collins: really big saying that being overweight is unhealthy. And one of the articles that, that was done on us when they were like researching us afterwards, they're like, oh, this whatever couple, well, you don't know this about them. . It was the best journalism ever done on us. They somehow found our Reddit history, which Oh, wasn't thatSimone Collins: a Vice article?Malcolm Collins: And they were going through our internet history and they were like, these two, you would think like innocuous individuals.Did you know he liked a post that was laughing at fat people having to go to the zoo to get an MRI? And I'm like, yeah, I did. I'd like, did you know that he follows like Kotaku in action [00:03:00] on Reddit? And I was like, wow. It's funny that they can't see. I used to follow Tumblr in action. Right. I mean,Simone Collins: like if I.If I had to, I mean, I feel like it's a beached whale right now because I'm so pregnant, like. I would laugh. I would laugh if I was obese and had to go to the zoo to get an MRI. Wouldn't you laugh? I would laugh.Malcolm Collins: I think it's objectively funny. It's one of those things that when we talk about our model for what makes people laugh at something, it's when something is surprising, you didn't expect it, but it makes sense in context.Yeah. Never something surprising. But make sense in context, that's what causes laughter and our hypothesis around laughter for people who aren't familiar with this theory, because we haven't done it in a few long time, I think we've only talked about in one of our early episodes is that it originally evolved in Children and it made the person that they were doing this to feel good about themselves.And so the person would repeat the action. And the reason why the child was basically asking the parent to repeat the action That was surprising, but made [00:04:00] sense or some level of sense in context is they were trying to sort of make the mental connections around that until it was no longer funny, i. e.until the thing that didn't kind of made sense in context, but was surprising was no longer surprising. They're like, Oh, okay, I understand this now. And this is why peekaboo is one of the longest things that makes kids laugh under around the age when they're learning object permanent and around the age where they are learning sort of theory of mind of other people.Are, what? She's still there? I guess it kind of makes sense that she's still there when her hands are there, but it's a little surprising to me. And, and so that is, and that's an important concept for kids to get, so that's why they left. And then any of these concepts that were useful for kids. End up becoming something that the adult mind will hijack.We say, this is what we think happened with the love reaction with the laughter reaction. It became sort of hijacked in courtship rituals when it hadn't turned off properly. You can read one of our books to go into our three on this more, but in this, what we wanna talk about is sit the, the [00:05:00] idea that self-control is sinful.And like, where did this come from and why is it so critical and why does it cause so much damage? And where I really started to like. Wow, like I, I got how normalized it is within the progressive world and how not normalized it is within ours is I was following one of my friends on Facebook and they had this message in, in one of their private groups where they were like, I really want to sleep with this guy.And they weren't sure whether they should or should not sleep with this guy. Like they didn't, sorry, they didn't really want to sleep with this guy. They had entertained the notion of sleeping with this guy, and this guy had said, I am open to sleeping with you. And so they were sort of stressing about the idea of, will I feel better?Like, like, will it make me happier long term? To sleep with them, or is it better to just not deal with it because of the potential negative social ramifications and negative emotions that could create in me to sleep with them, right? [00:06:00] Now, this is really interesting for two reasons. I mean, what it's so far down this progressive monoculture that Whether or not you have sex with an individual is completely determinant on how it makes you feel about yourself.Good feel in the moment. That's a very odd, I mean, that does show, like, that is complete dedication to the urban monoculture in terms of how you interpret things. LogicallySimone Collins: consistent, yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it's logically consistent but then, too, I realize I haven't. In years ever ask myself, what will make me happier when I was trying to make a difficult decision like this has never been the thing I was optimizing around even when I had a more atheistic structures in my brain.It was always well, what matters more for my mission, like my intrinsic value, the thing I think has value in society. And when I would do something that would make me happy. The justification I would use is I was doing it so that I would not be distracted by these lower order desires. The analogy I use in some of the [00:07:00] tracks that are yet to come for this is that, , we all have this ancestor inside of us, this, this four legged individual that is, that is from this evolutionary time period where our ancestors who had certain inclinations had more surviving offspring than other ancestors.And. We're sort of like a person in a cage with this, you know, you can, if you don't feed it at all, it will attack you. That's not a good idea. If your logic doesn't feed it at all, it will attack you. But if you feed it too much, it will become stronger and stronger and stronger to the point where your logic can't resist it anymore.And you are just a slave. To this four legged creature inside of you. And to us, the way you and I have always defined sort of humanity, and this was the theory you came up with Simone, is how far are you from this thing? This is how you define civilization as well, you were mentioning. Is, is civilized societies are the ones that are better at suppressing these instinctual parts of ourselves?Simone Collins: What makes us Yeah, that express the [00:08:00] very most self control.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, do you want to talk on this topic a bit before I go further?Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, one is I'm just curious. What do you think of the decisions that man and woman could have made would have maximized their hedonic enjoyment?Well,Malcolm Collins: I pointed out in my response to this, you commented on this. Oh, of course. Yeah. It is important to remember that sometimes or almost always what would make me happiest if I just asked what would make me happiest every day, I'd spend every day at home drinking and playing video games. I would never leave the house.May have a, a few plates of exotic cheeses or something like that. But other than that, you know, I, I would do nothing. I, I feel likeSimone Collins: after like one and a half days of that, you'd start to feelMalcolm Collins: miserable. Maybe you would, but what I would say is that. I do that so little because there's always little things in life.Like, do I want to go, like, you know, I booked a scuba trip or [00:09:00] something, right? I got to wake up at like 5 a. m. I mean, I typically wake up before that, but I have to leave the house at 5 a. m. Right. You know, go out, get everything ready, go in, you know, jump in where it may be cold or something like that.All of these incremental steps are painful, but I know that after the scuba trip, I will be happier that I did it than that I didn't do it, right? Yeah, yeah. This was back when I was still tempted by expensive hobbies like this. Solo things? Ugh. Yeah, which I don't do as much anymore, but it, you know, it's an important there are so many things in life like these sort of more complicated rituals or things you can go out there and do that in the long term are going to make you happier, even if in the moment they are not your source of highest happiness.And so I told them to consider that sex with this individual may be that type of thing and to consider it was in that context.Simone Collins: See, I would say just like clearly don't have sex because you're going to have way more fun with sexual tension. Like, I think about, like, most movies That isMalcolm Collins: such a woman [00:10:00] response.Simone Collins: Most movies and television shows. Like it's all about the sexual tension. And then even after like, I guaranteeMalcolm Collins: you, none of our male listeners, they're like, this woman does not understand the male. No, the men are not having funny and fun, fun being teased and baited.Simone Collins: Okay. But I wantedMalcolm Collins: to talk about, so one instance, You know, like, well, no, no, no.ISimone Collins: mean, to your, to your more important point, right? The actual substantive point of what, what makes us human, what makes humanity special is the fact that we have this prefrontal cortex, that we have the ability to override our instincts and say, here are ideas that I think are in the best interests of my values or morals, things that can be totally unmoored from even our survival.And then we can act on those. That is what makes us human. That definition is the only thing that separates us, as far as I am concerned. And so, yes, the more that you separate yourself from your hedonic instincts and needs, and this includes, like, you know, if you're fearful of something, if you have anxiety, [00:11:00] avoiding that.That includes that, which is also a big thing in progressive circles. The less, the less you Sorry, the more you, you distance yourself from that, the more you become human. So, also, you could see how this, very inconveniently, as far as I'm concerned, because I want to be really, really nice to all progressive groups, can dehumanize progressive groups, in my view, because they are choosing to grow closer.To their instincts and animalistic selves and further away from that, which I define as human, which is well,Malcolm Collins: no, and this is, this is sort of around all of our belief structures and everything like that is this framework of what makes somebody human. And, and we see this, not just in like these lower order desires, all of our pre programmed behavioral patterns, like super soft culture, mysticism, stuff like that.The stuff we design describe as witchcraft in our witchcraft video. To us, these people are moving back to this you know, sort of pre Abrahamic animalistic like tradition. They're [00:12:00] moving back to their pre programmed self and, and that, that is the opposite of, of human. That is to become less than the barbarian, right?It's toSimone Collins: revert. It's just to revert, which is very, very sad.Malcolm Collins: Well, not just revert. It's not like civilization is a direction that always goes in one way, but we do see. Human history is being a conflict between the restrained and the controlled and the then redirected at things of value and purpose and then sort of letting the cold take you like, you know, you're freezing out in the, in the wilderness and before you die.It begins to feel warm and nice a bit. And the person who is like, Oh, this is nice. I'll take off all my clothes. Paradoxical undressing that's called. When people are freezing to death, that's sort of what we see this as instead of the person who goes to the fire, the struggle, people say the struggle burns you.Yeah, it does burn you, but it also motivates you to do [00:13:00] better. It's the burning that is keeping you alive. It's keeping the vitality, humanity alive. And we all freeze in the vacuum of space without it, but I need to get back to the question at hand because there's a few other interesting points about this that I really want to elucidate on one is just like the mental health issue here.If you tell an individual, you know, you can do whatever you feel like doing, whatever you feel like doing it, you know, always optimize for your happiness. So long as it's not like interfering with other people's lives, you are demonstrably hurting that individual's mental health. For two big reasons.One is if an individual, all religions, all old cultures have some sort of arbitrary self denial ritual, whether it's Lent or Ramadan or Feast of the Firstborn, it's because self denial. is important. This is why all religions have self denial rules, right? Self denial is important because it strengthens your inhibitory pathways in your prefrontal cortex, as Simone was saying.These pathways become weak, like your brain is sort of like a muscle in a [00:14:00] way, like I hate thatSimone Collins: analogy. Pretty much everything though, pretty much everything with the human body though seems to have a use it or lose it factor. SoMalcolm Collins: yeah, if you do not use your inhibitory pathways regularly, Intrusive thoughts are just gonna like plow through and you won't be able to shut them down.You won't haveSimone Collins: a higher rate of anxiety. I lived this. Like, I lived this before I met you. I was alone with my intrusive thoughts. And you gave me basically bigger things to worry about. And I have my, like, I am so much lower on the intrusive thought front. It is insane. You'reMalcolm Collins: so happy and calm now compared to what you were.You were like really agitated when I met you. Oh, I couldn't,Simone Collins: there were like things that would render me basically useless for weeks as I just dreaded them, you know, and it was dumb stuff like eating out for dinner with people in the evening. So yeah, I totally getMalcolm Collins: this. Yeah. So, so, Well, and it is a level of self ownership.One of the stories you told me recently is somebody you heard who had a similar sort of OCD as you was like, Oh my God, I [00:15:00] stress so much about eating with the utensils at restaurants that I know that other people have used. Yeah. Which in your response to me was. Why don't they just bring their own with them?That's what I've been doing ever since I met you. And it's, it's one of these things that shows a level of, this is the difference between an external locus of control and an internal locus of control. Are things my mind to control? Like, do I control the world around me? Is it my job to fix the things around me?Or is it just, I allow the world to act on me? And A concept we'll get into in both the religious tracks and in future episodes is this concept we have of spiral energy versus non anti anti spiral energy. Where spiral energy, this would be a huge, this would be a very clear example of a spiral energy thinking versus anti spiral energy thinking.Is it, you know, the level of I have ownership over my reality, my reality does not have ownership over me. And the, so you get these negative effects like that, but then also this idea of I'm just [00:16:00] going to go out. constantly chase hedonism has a huge negative effect on the amount of hedonism that you're able to get.And this is really, really, really critical to understand as well. And it's a fairly difficult concept to explain because it's both true at the biological, but also at the conceptual level. If I define my life, By how good I feel like if that's a core thing of value to me when I go out in the world and I do Something that feels good.Like I've done the thing of value that I have. I know and have experienced Exactly how much value I have brought into the world Whereas, if I define my value based on something other than myself, like for me, it's helping the billions of humans that will exist after me, hundreds of billions of humans that will exist after me, and iteratively improving their quality of life and building [00:17:00] structures and beliefs and ways of interacting In the now that reverberate and affect all of human history.So when I do something good, you know, I under some austerity to do it. And then I do it. And I don't get to feel it. I don't get to really fully know. All of the good that comes from the thing I did. I can conceptually imagine it, the hundreds of billions of people, but I don't know it, right? Now, this is important because humans don't actually feel that much happiness.And so when you get out and you attempt to maximize your own personal pleasure, You have a deep realization of how trivial your life and existence is every single day. Yeah. Because you are experiencing everything good that you have brought to the world. And it's thisSimone Collins: fleeting, actually not terribly satisfying feeling.Malcolm Collins: Yes. And that's the biggest problem with hedonism. The biggest problem with hedonism is that it [00:18:00] reveals the triviality of your own life. To, to the hedonist. Now I don't think life is trivial. I think life is a deeply important thing, but I think that's because life is about not cultivating positive emotional states, not the things that evolved into us, but as well, I guess we can talk about it right here.It's the spiral energy, human potentiality. When we have this concept that we talk about of every man's role, like what defines a good life when we quote, when would read, you know, we think of as a prophet he defines a life well lived. Did you make the next generation better than you? Yeah. That's, that's how you define a life well lived.And people hear that and they're like, that seems like a really weird thing to build your entire life around. And this is where. And we'll, we definitely will do a Gurren Lagann episode, but Gurren Lagann in anime does a very good job with this concept of spiral versus anti spiral energy. Where the heroes are fighting on the behalf of spiral [00:19:00] energy and the bad guys are fighting on the behalf of anti spiral energy.And spiral energy Is what we mean when we say intergenerational improvement, this expansion of human potentiality and an expansion of human potentiality that is so enormous that because, because that's the point of the spiral, right? Every time it goes around, it's getting exponentially larger in volume.Our ancestors, you know, four or five generations ago, couldn't even be able to conceive that we have. Thinking machines now, you know that we can talk to this insane even, even for two generations ago, two, three generations from now they will be as exponentially greater than us as we are from our ancestors in terms of their cognition, their interaction with reality.Well, and then this is one of the reasons we have such hot. Stillity as well towards frozen traditions, right? [00:20:00] Traditions are good insofar as they evolve and keep humanity focused on the things that are actually important. This expansion of human potentiality to us, but I'm open to other things of importance.What I am not open to. Is this sort of general utilitarianism, hedonistic utilitarianism, I call it which is to just sort of expand good happiness units throughout the world. It seems very obvious to me that is not why we're alive, but what's really interesting is that an individual who lives for hedonism.will always be less happy than an individual who lives for something else. And we've talked about this on other things, you know, your rock stars, your movie stars, who should have all the hedonism they want. And you know, you and I know a number of billionaires, they're generally not very happy people unless they're just totally and austerely dedicated to a higher cause.Yeah.Simone Collins: And even then ,Malcolm Collins: that's necessarily, and this is a quote you came up with that I will always repeat and repeat and repeat[00:21:00] which is the only real happiness you will ever experience is efficacious living your values. Yeah. And if those values are happiness, then you'll never experience true happiness in your life.And so many people was in this far progressive movement, never do.Simone Collins: Well, because we're not designed to be happy, we're designed to, to pursue things that we think will make us happy. But we're, we're not designed to be happy. It's, you know, like when you, when you take away any motivation to do anything, you die.And if you're perfectly happy and content, you're not going to do anything. So, you know,Malcolm Collins: we're really not designed for it. One of the things I find really interesting that I think a lot of people might have contextualized is the things that get popular was in the progressive sphere are often really core in their messages to aggrandizing individuals who live for this loss of self control.[00:22:00]And a great example of this was Let It Go from Frozen. It is the loss of self control anthem.Simone Collins: The anthem of a generation.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it is a woman who felt constrained by the rules she felt she had to live with. And keep in mind, these rules were there for a good reason that she had to live with growing up.And so When she was able to just not care about the rules anymore and do whatever she want whenever she wanted to She had true power like that is what her power was Her power was was was trapped by the individuals who said exercise self control And her power was unleashed when she no longer had to exercise self control.Simone Collins: And when she abandoned her city slash kingdom to die in the frozen [00:23:00] tundra. Yes.Malcolm Collins: To be clear, she was not actually showing power when she did. She was hurting everyone around her.Malcolm Collins: Like, even the show recorded that.Oh, and I forgot here to mention wish the new Disney movie where the villain. Is a villain because he doesn't just grant everyone's wish immediately. And automatically he grants some wishes and not others. The idea that it would be considered sinful to not just give everyone what they want, regardless of the consequences.Is so emblematic of this failure in progressive culture and this urban monoculture.Malcolm Collins: And this also reminds me of the transition and transformation of the Harley Quinn character.Hmm.Simone Collins: I don't know what happened to her. Did she start as Mannequin Crazy and become something other than Mannequin Crazy and [00:24:00] or dead?Malcolm Collins: No, so she started very much. I mean, the mannequin crazy thing was either an act or brainwashing to impress an abusive partner. And she was seen as a weird sort of sex symbol to guys for a long time.And then feminist authors took over her.Simone Collins: Oh, so you're talking about like the meta instance of, of like how her character. Her character's treatment evolved over time. Huh. Huh. Okay. Okay.Malcolm Collins: Where her craziness is her strength. And it's, I mean, it's a very uninteresting character in a lot of ways. Because it is what they are using to sort of edify themselves.They see her partners as sort of, Constraining her and constraining her potential and then her craziness, her doing whatever she wants, whenever she wants is a sort of like a, a implementation or it cultivates her potential when in truth, doing whatever you want, whenever you feel like it does not cultivate human potential, it [00:25:00] diminishes it.It is sand on a fire. And it is interesting to me when people from this urban monoculture, they interact with me and they go, Malcolm, you seem to be so energetic. You seem to be so full of vitality. Where does this come from? And I don't get that question as much in conservative circles because many conservative circles know zealots like me, you know, people who.Have ordered their lives and are happy with that order because they are efficaciously living their value system. But progressives in their gray world of sadness, they haven't seen this. And they delude themselves. You know, we were talking about the Hays Movement earlier. One of the really interesting things about the Hays Movement is now it's seen as this female activist movement.But like Hurley Quinn, it was started by chubby chasing men. It was originally started for chubby chasing men to normalize them sort of talking about how sexy their wives were to them. And this is like well documented. This is not like, my, [00:26:00] and then they began to use it and organize the Hays meetings for men who chased fat women to meet those women.This was all organized by skinny white men. That was what started the Hays movement. And then. in the, in the days of intersectionality and everything like that, you know, fairly recently really was, you know, Tess Holliday and, and Regina George, I want to say what's her name or something. No, Regina George is Reagan.Reagan. No, Reagan. Sorry. Tess Holliday and Reagan. Okay. That was when it really became more of like a codified thing. Reagan was the real one who did it. And she is, I don't know if she's still alive.Simone Collins: Well, there was this big kerfuffle in generally in the Hays community. This is totally off topic, but when Ozempic came out and a bunch of the Hays people started getting.Skinny and losing weight. Whoops.Malcolm Collins: You know, I can only imagine how gross it is to be around an overeater on Ozempic. Well, I mean, I mean, we talked about this in ourSimone Collins: No, no, no, that's, yeah, except that [00:27:00] a lot of people who take Ozempic see apacite Suppression as well as more inhibitory control, which is really interesting.It's like a I don't know if it's a placebo effect or something else is going on or things that are correlated with appetite Also can affect your like shopping and gambling behavior but people have reported that when they are on ozempic they also engage in Less in otherMalcolm Collins: addictive creations. If I remember correctly, when you are hungry, you gamble more and shop more.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they say never go to a grocery store hungry. So, I mean, it's not. I mean,Malcolm Collins: that's shopping for food, but I'm talking about like related to other things.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Although I don't know, like I, I hear it on both sides, like a lot of people who are big proponents of intermittent fasting like the added focus.And I do too, of, of being. In a fasted state. well,Malcolm Collins: I want to hear, I mean, do you have a thesis on this or any memories of feeling this way when you were in this progressive monoculture more yourself? If [00:28:00] somebody had said to you, like, it's a bad thing to just do whatever you want to do, so long as it doesn't negatively affect other individuals or whatever it makes you happiest.So long as it doesn't negatively affect other individuals, whatever affirms your identity the most, so long as it doesn't negatively affect other individuals, would you have seen that as an odd thing for someone to say? Like.Simone Collins: That you can do whatever you feel like doing. No, thatMalcolm Collins: you shouldn't do whatever you feel like doing.That you shouldn't.Simone Collins: Yeah, um.It's, it's hard for me to say, like, things have gone way more off the rails now. Then they were when I was growing up in a hyper progressive culture. And I think a lot of people who are progressives feel that way. Like, wow, things used to be so reasonable and I had argued correct. And now they've completely gone off the rails.And which is why there's this huge subset of progressives or like, I guess you could say more liberal people who have now been. Alienated by the progressive movement because they're like, no, no, no, hold on. You crossed a line here. This thing's crazy. Can't you understand this is really damaging what you're saying, whatever it may be.And then, you [00:29:00] know, the progressive movement subsequently shuns them and they have to create their own sub stack and their own news outlets and all that. Which is, it's weird. Cause now there's just like weird. There are two versions of progressives, like the more sane ones who've been kicked out and then there are the insane ones who are staying in.But I, I definitely do remember that when I showed maladaptive behaviors in within progressive culture, there was no like. Discussion of, you know, we're just not going to talk about this or, Oh, we're just going to ignore it. It was more something of like, Oh no, like let's, let's talk about this. Let's, this is a thing now we have to do something about it.Which was really damaging. For example, I mean, I went to public school, so of course I got head lice multiple times. I don't, you probably did too. It's not just a public school. Oh yeah,Menstrasse, the delouse. For your own good, you will cooperate. [00:30:00] You have LIES! You dare question me? Question my methods? You! Who stands to benefit the most from my work? You disgust me!Simone Collins: I got head lice before. And the first time it ever happened to me, it's like any instance of being sick as a kid.It's like, I don't know. Okay. I'm like home from school. Now I'm spending more time with like a parent or a caregiver. And like, that's not so bad. But then when it, when I first got head lice, my mom, especially was like, this is going to be so traumatic for her. This is going to be so terrible. Like, I don't know how to deal with this.And she made it such a big thing that I developed this immense phobia. Of head lice going forward where like, I couldn't sit on public chairs or couches. No one could touch my hair. I had waist length hair and I cut it really short. And I combed my hair every single day with a lice comb, which is this really fine tooth comb.[00:31:00] That is probably pretty damaging to hair. And I, I think that might be an instance of like, progressive culture, especially when it comes to the other element, which you've been talking a lot about pleasure, right? But then the other, the other instinctual thing or element of loss of self control, the progressive movement, I think perhaps even more damagingly.Plays into is this concept of trauma or fears where it's like, oh, no, no, no, we're not gonna overcome them. We're not going to take our prefrontal cortex and say, Hey, I have something bigger to worry about right now. We're just gonna live all the way, like in our, you know, amygdala, like all the way back there.Let's just stay there. Let's not go anywhere else. Let's just stay right back there and let's just live in the fear. And that, that is something that definitely happened. Not just with me, but with other peers and other issues where like, suddenly a friend of mine is seeing a therapist about a thing that like really isn't a thing, but their parents decided to make it a thing because that's kind of the culture.And I think parents did that because they [00:32:00] grew up in a culture in which you would be seen as being a bad parent if your child experienced something potentially. Perhaps traumatic and you didn't make it a big deal. The whole sucking it up thing is interesting. I wish there, there may be research on this.But like post traumatic stress disorder is a very big issue among. Veterans. Mm-Hmm. , right? It's, it's widely diagnosed. It's now widely treated, and there's some really cool, interesting, like psychedelics based treatments that are coming up that may help to address it. However people coming back from World War II in World War I also experienced extremely traumatic things.Theoretically also post-traumatic stress disorder or syndrome. And I would love to see research on. The like negative behaviors associated with that condition in like the fifties and sixties and the twenties and thirties. [00:33:00] Versus we'll say the eighties and nineties and then the noughties like now, because I feel like people coming back from Vietnam, people coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan have seemed to, to not be dealing with it as well.And is that an element of this, like, is there just an element of living in a culture? That doesn't believe in succumbing to your instincts or living anywhere else from except for your prefrontal cortex. Is that, is that what's harming us? And I mean, I guess, you know, you could say that really then the 1950s too was more civilized and you can see this and how, again, I keep talking about it, but my 1950s, you know, like instructional videos that I like watching on YouTube, but by corded films and these other ones are, there's, they're so.Oriented around logic and the prefrontal cortex. And they're so fricking civilized where it's like, well, you know, Susie, Susie couldn't comb her hair in the morning and now no one, no one's going to love her ever.Malcolm Collins: But like, but it's [00:34:00] true. I don't love women who don't comb their hair in the morning.Simone Collins: It's true.Yeah. Or like, you know, Billy can't help it, but buy a soda. So he's not going to get his camera that he wants. Cause he can't budget, you know, like it shows again and again. And it's so interesting that that's a recurring theme within these videos, but really the key to becoming. Civilized in the key to achieving any of these things that these videos were trying to teach kids to do, which ranged from hosting a dinner party well, to having a good marriage, to saving money through things, to just navigating society and maintaining a job.They all had to do with this self control. So, yeah.It's bad that it's become taboo to express self control.Malcolm Collins: I love you to death, Simone, and these episodes are always fun to make, so I appreciate you taking the time to do them with me, and I'm happy to have you back.Simone Collins: You know what you should close with, to like show the extent to which our culture now no longer indulges in self control, is [00:35:00] Like maybe a clip showing new like Haagen Dazs commercials or ice cream commercials have people just eating out of the pint.Diamonds. It could beMalcolm Collins: oh, yeah, that's the thing now, but hold on. No, I can do that, but there's another one I can also close with. Which I think shows how narcissistic and you know, the cultural genocide campaign that progressives are waging now, and they don't realize it. They don't realize how evil they look. So in Trolls 2 World Tour, Oh, well, there's a great scene where she is seeing what is coded in the movie as another culture for the first time, which is the country music trolls.This song is so sad. It's so Different. Oh, they must not know that music's supposed to make you happy. Ah, that's awful.Malcolm Collins: Like, I need to enlighten them by making sure that they stop making music their way and start making music my way because their music that isn't [00:36:00] happy is bad.Their music is no self control. This is the way that the progressives relate to the rural people when they get there. Don't they know the purpose of life is just to be happy. And we need to uplift them. And then I also, I also need to do the clip after that, where after, after doing this big happy song, she gets put in jail and they're like,Now I want you three to sit in here And think about what you've just done That was a crime against musicMalcolm Collins: you need to think long and hard about the crime you just committed against music.God.The show actually just has a ton of great scenes. I really enjoyed it. And the aesthetics of it. But one in particular that I'm going to play here before we leave is.It really sort of encapsulates whatever a behi comes to us and they're like, oh, what you guys are doing is.just like what the Bahais are doing.And I'm like, Hmm, you have severely misunderstood. If we combine our music, she'll see that music unites all trolls, and that we're all the same, and that she's one of us! [00:37:00] I mean, no disrespect, but King to Queen, anything but that. Why not?. I can make it right. History is just gonna keep repeating itself until we make everyone realize that we're all the same. But we're not all the same. Denying our differences is denying the truth of who we are.Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you to death, Limone. ISimone Collins: love you and your immense self control. You all are awesome and inspiring.Everything. I've ruined everything. I'm just trying to like, get comfortable, but it's like, I can't feel my hands anymore. Because of the cold? Because of the cold. I'm going to use this scarf here.Malcolm Collins: So, I just did something naughty and indulgent. I bought Octavian a toy on Amazon. Oh, f*****g dare you. He's been really excited about postal trucks.Simone Collins: Oh, he has, hasn't he? Well, and he loves his special deliveries. [00:38:00] Oh, that's sweet.Malcolm Collins: So a fan of ours sent him a a book that they had made. Like a children's book. Which Honestly, he's not as interested in the children's book, but they, but they sent it in a, in a cardboard container like a small one, but they had had their kids cover the container with stickers and, and like, I don't know, like glitter, like other fun stuff.And so he loves. The container, the mail package, as he calls it, my mail and he, no, my package, my packaging, he'll put stuff in it. And this is how he got obsessed with mail trucks. Oh, is that it?Simone Collins: No, he's, he's always big on like when a package was received, we just drop everything and open it. And what is itMalcolm Collins: and what's inside?The difference about this one is it is decorated and it is smaller because it was like a small flat package. So we don't end up like breaking it down and throwing it out like all the other ones. And so it's been more persistent than the normalSimone Collins: packages. So nicely decorated. So he's in love with [00:39:00] it and sleeps with it every night.Malcolm Collins: I was going to say it was behind me right now. But anyway, This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Dive into a thought-provoking analysis on how traditional religions must adapt to survive modern challenges. Explore the interplay of faith, divine sacrifice, and evolving beliefs, particularly within the Abrahamic traditions. Discussion highlights the tension between innovation and heritage, urging reform for genuine community. Reflect on the evolution of prophetic understanding and its implications for humanity's spiritual journey. The conversation also addresses the interconnectedness of faith, humility, and historical progress in shaping our future.

The podcast discusses the divergence of wages and productivity in the 1970s, driven by globalization, outsourcing, automation, and women entering the workforce. It explores the impact of leaving the gold standard in 1971. The hosts also touch on AI-generated entities, the risks of AI therapists, and the need for diverse and specialized communities in the face of technological advancements.

Exploring the growing gender divide in political parties, theories of sexual gatekeeping and bureaucratic optimization, decline of democracy in the U.S., and the potential road towards autocracy or empire. Also, discussing the correlation between economic productivity and individual contributions, the indifference and polarization in American society, and the dismissal of the pandemic among smart individuals. Touching on fears, gratitude, and misconceptions about relationships with intelligent women, as well as discussions on subscriptions, victim blaming, and expressions of love.

We discuss how child support laws may be contributing to a form of human speciation by enforcing reproductive isolation between high and low income groups. We explore the two main reproduction strategies - having lots of kids due to lack of contraception/impulse control vs having resources to support kids. Historically, some genetic drift occurred between the strategies but child support laws now punish the wealthy from straying, preventing gene flow. We cover how you see a U-curve in fertility by income, touch on ethical considerations, and the damage from affirmative action.Simone Collins: [00:00:00] I almost feel like there's been speciation culturally, like even within generations. So there's not like a genetic incompatibility, but we've reached a point at which like some groups are now so culturally and like.Um, worldview incompatible that they're almost like different species. Like each of them will view the other, like an animal that they cannot comprehend and that cannot possibly have a soul because they're so different. And they don't make any sense. And they cannot empathize with them and they, they will not see them as human.And that really scares me because when you get that level of. A, a lack of ability to empathize or relate to other groups. That's when you start seeing atrocities, that's when you start seeing violence. And I, I very much worry about it.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone.Simone Collins: Hello, gorgeous. Okay, so remember that day where you gave me this tweet to edit and I edited it and I had no idea what you're talking about and then I I I tweeted it and then Subsequently deleted it because you're like you [00:01:00] completely ruined my point and I didn't understand your point at all because your point Then I find this very intriguing is that child support could cause human speciation.Walk me through this,Malcolm Collins: Malcolm. Okay, so, and not child care, which she changed it to, which is a nonsensical statement. Child care could not cause human speciation. None of this made sense toSimone Collins: me, though. So, help.Malcolm Collins: Help. So, this involves understanding how speciation happens in animals and how humans bred in a historical context.So, first, let's talk about speciation in animals. There are two core types of speciation. You could either have something called geographic isolation or something called behavioral isolation. Geographic isolation happens when something like you have a population of deer and then a stream starts to form between them and then the stream gets bigger and bigger and bigger and eventually becomes a river or like two continents drift apart or something like that or an animal gets stuck on an island in the middle of nowhere.What you're [00:02:00] having in all of these instances is two populations of the same species have become genetically isolated from each other. So mutations that are happening in one part of the species are no longer drifting to the other part of the species. So typically if you have a population of animals and they're all interbreeding with each other, any beneficial mutation is going to increase within the species as a whole.Right? You know, it will begin to spread throughout all members of the species and then in, in, in, you know, help the species as a whole. But if it's isolated with two populations, you might have some beneficial mutations spreading within this group and other beneficial mutations spreading within this group.And now, these two groups end up having sort of a new optimal state in which different types of beneficial mutations are benefiting each group because they are, Utilizing different ecological niches are utilizing different strategies to take advantage of their ecological niche. Now, this is a form of [00:03:00] speciation that most people are familiar with if you're studying evolution at like a child's level, like this is how it's often explained.But then you also have behavioral isolation, which is, maybe even more common as a form of speciation. Behavioral isolation happens when one of the mutations ends up isolating the portion of the population that has it from the rest of the population at a breeding level. So let me give an example here that's very easy to understand.Suppose you have a nocturnal species and then some behavioral trait like mutation causes a portion of that species to become only active during the day. These two populations can be living in the same area, but essentially They're no longer interbreeding. Yeah, completely genetically isolated from each other.And this, this happens more common where, where we're actually, or like you have a change that causes a change in what some of the females look like in a species. And it turns out that some of the males in that species still like [00:04:00] this and some of the males don't still like this. I mean, so then you have sort of sexual behavioral isolation, right?What behavioral isolation looks like, or it might be instead of nocturnal versus day, it might be that, it's a species of turtles, right? And this species of turtles would always go to this one little island or, or place to breed and have sex, right? And lay eggs. But then this other faction within the turtles is okay with having eggs anywhere!Then you have Isolation of those two groups, right? Or they have slightly different navigational prospects coded into them due to a mutation and that causes them to breed on a different beach. Now you have behavioral isolation, which is also sort of geographic isolation and an interesting way because they're not actually geographically isolated.So. What behavioral isolation looks like classically within a population cluster is you have some genetically linked trait, and then you have a sort of U curve on a graph. So what that means is for individuals who have a lot of The trait on this side, they're having a lot of kids [00:05:00] for individuals have a middling amount of this genetically linked trait.They have very few kids for people on the other side. They have a lot of kids. That is what behavioral isolation looks like. That is the graph we see. With IQ or well, not IQ, but earning potential, at least yeah, wealth and fertility and wealth has a high correlation with things like IQ, things like educational attainment things like all sorts of genetically linked traits and interestingly, it doesn't just go to that, it goes to the other genetically linked traits so you see this in things like weight, for example the people who have the most kids aren't just, the least wealthy kids are also the most obese people.And this is obesity, not just at like the accidental obesity level, but at the polygenic risk score. So at the, my genetics, obesity level, the polygenic risk score is a track with obesity. Now keep in mind this is not due to some sort of difference in metabolic rate humans, even within like two standard deviations of the standard [00:06:00] metabolic rate only really differ by like, 200 calories a day.This is due to self control reasons.Simone Collins: Well, yeah, or, or when exposed to highly processed food, people with a certain collection of genes appear to have less ability to not overindulge,Malcolm Collins: right? Yeah. And I, I say this as somebody who believes that I have a genetic predilection for a specific susceptibility to types of alcohol addiction.So I am not saying that, like, I am above this, but this is a different type of addictive process, which is not discorrelated with Wells, which is an interesting thing. Like, if you look at most of the most impactful people in human history they drink a ton. Like, a ton. Like, a ton more than normal people, whether it's Alexander the Great or Kublai Khan, or Churchill it's just something you see throughout history, and youSimone Collins: don't know why.Malcolm Collins: I don't know if it's something to do with the deficiency in this pathway gives one an advantage within certain types of leadership roles or if it's that the [00:07:00] pathway is has some sort of genetic. Okay, so hold on. I'll explain something that can happen with genes sometimes. Sometimes a beneficial gene is like right next to you.Okay. A bad gene on, on like the way that the human genome is coded. And so it means that most mutations that are selecting for the beneficial gene also select for the bad gene. It wouldn't be surprising to me if alcoholism propensity, Is somewhere on that was in the genetic strand, or it could be that it's literally the same gene.Like, it's literally the same part of the neurochemical pathway that leads to these advantages that cause an Alexander the Great or a Kublai KhanSorry, I admit to say OGA daikon. ICAN here. Actually funny story he's. Counselors became so worried about his copious. They made a rule for him that he could only drink one glass of wine a day. And so he had a giant challenge fashioned that could hold multiple gallons of line in rebellion to this rule.Malcolm Collins: or a Winston ChurchillA lot of people don't seem to realize how much Winston Churchill [00:08:00] drank. , so for example, if we're just talking about champagne, Winston Churchill consume 42,000 bottles of Paul Rogers champagne from 1908 to 1962. Never switching to another brand that breaks down to around two to three bottles per day on average. There's reports of him during the war period.For example, having six scotches before dinner, on top of other beverages, , he would often, , He wake up with a pole, Roger champagne for breakfast, then another pint at lunch. , and then a 10 ounce. A series of 10 ounce glasses of scotch and whiskey for dinner. , and several more glasses of whiskey as nightcaps., so I think we did the math on this and one of our books, because we got like a thing and he drank the equivalent of, I think it was like, Four and a half bottles of hard liquor a day.Uh, so a lot, a lot.Malcolm Collins: are causing but that's a completely different thing. We're going to get to, this is not correlated with obesity. Obesity is not correlated with outside leadership or economic success is actually inversely [00:09:00] correlated with it.But actually what you're seeing here within the, the, the, the human genome is two strategies for reproduction that are both successful in our current socioeconomic environment. Now, the problem is, is that the high wealth strategy, you need to be extremely wealthy. You only get above repopulation rate, again, at least within the US if your family is earning over half a million a year.But as you go up from there your fertility rate just gets higher and higher and higher. Now, my suspicion has been that this dual optimization around fertility strategies might have been the case for a long time in human history but it wasn't relevant. And this is where child support comesSimone Collins: in.We're getting to it.Malcolm Collins: My, so anyone who's familiar, one of my favorite sort of sex books for learning about the history of sexuality is My Secret Life. And it was written by a Victorian noble about his sexcapades going around. They might've been pre Victorian but it was, it was early, you [00:10:00] know.ISimone Collins: think it was Victorian and he, and this was in across different cultures.Can different continents. The man covered a lot of ground in manyMalcolm Collins: ways. And he talked about how he would sleep with peasant girls and where, how peasant girls were different from sleeping with noble girls and how you could convince a girl you met like farming in a field to sleep with you. It had like a full strategy for like every, it was like, Oh, innkeepers daughters.This is how you seduce innkeepers daughters. This is what innkeepers daughters are like in bed. But this man was clearly in this, you know, upper class community, right? And I should point out when I'm talking about like, upper class communities, they are remarkably persistent intergenerationally, even when the odds are really against it.One of the most shocking studies that I had ever seen was looking at in China. So people who don't know how Thoreau, the Chinese revolution was it created a societal inversion read the red scarf girls, really great book at showing how bad it was for people there. If you're interested in this. But in China when they went through the cultural revolution, the amount of wealth, a family had had [00:11:00] before that in the amount of social and political power, the family had had was inversely correlated to their new status.Whereas farmers were the highest status individuals and the former wealthy were abused and really. Just like it was horrifying the lifestyle they had to go through. They had nothing and they now became basically the untouchable cast of society. What is shocking is that if you look at the CCP today, after a few generations of this, it was something like 85 percent of the leadership cast of the CCP comes from families that were previously In the well, thisSimone Collins: untouchable intellectual class slash,Malcolm Collins: you know, from the dynasty period of China,Simone Collins: I think similar findings resulted from looking at like post Soviet social composition as well.So in, in, in a couple of different cases, it has been found that families that had a lot of wealth and or power or influence and then had that. Removed then within a few generations [00:12:00] after the exogenous corrective mechanism was removed found themselves once again and decisions of wealth and power andMalcolm Collins: again, we're just like signing like objective research here.Like, you can go out, you can find this research like this is not like these days. CanSimone Collins: you find this research? None of you want to chat GPT, none of you Google it. I mean.Malcolm Collins: Well, I think you can Google it these days still. I don't think they scrubbed the internet of this, but I'll see when I'm doing the episode.Cause I often try to post like pictures of it and maybe it's all gone now. I think ISimone Collins: still have the links. I really, we can try to add these to the show notes cause I really don't know if people are going to be able to find it otherwise.Malcolm Collins: So what you had historically is you have these two different reproductive strategies, but they weren't completely behavioral.The reason they weren't behaviorally isolated is because women are often unfaithful to their husbands. As you know, you know, we've talked about, then this is study is inflated because it was looking at what guys who thought their wives had cheated on them. But when we go to something like a third of, of kids, when the husband wasn't sure actually [00:13:00] turned out to be from another guy.I think population overall, it's something like 3 percent or 5 percent or something like that. It really is quite low. I mean, that's not low from a genetic standpoint, from a genetic standpoint, that's not low. You cannot have a behavioral isolation. If you have 5 percent of the time guys who think that they're in one group are actually raising the kids of people in the quote unquote rich group or upper class or whatever strategy.So you have two strategies here. One is a strategy that is primarily. focused on getting people to breed either because they couldn't figure out contraception. They couldn't prevent somebody from sleeping with them, or they lacked the self control to not have sex when they didn't want to have kids.And then the other group is a group that is having lots of kids because they have lots of resources. And, and there are. Obviously, these two groups have almost nothing in common in terms of what makes you successful within both of these strategies from a genetic selection standpoint. Well, child [00:14:00] support, which is a very interesting phenomenon, that is almost universally implemented.It is implemented literally, like if there were a few, or not a few, but a good chunk of countries that didn't do it, like a third of the world that didn't like really egregiously and effectively do child support, where a large portion of this well, see. strategy we're living it wouldn't be effective because you'd still have the genetic drift between the two populations.But it is really an all encompassing thing, and it is extremely punishing to anyone who is in the high wealth generation group who ends up dallying from people within their group. They, they suffer extreme penalties, both to their ability to secure partners within that group and their quality of life.And they're often not going to have that many more than like one child outside of that group. Now, this causes problems. When I first mentioned this, you're like, well, what about basketball players?Simone Collins: Yeah, like they're the classic example of [00:15:00] like, you know, wealthy people who are then obligated to pay child support who still end up seeming to do it a lot.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I, I would argue in this case that they're almost sort of the exception that proves the rule that you know, sports stars are one, not normally genetically optimized for this group. Whereas this group is typically optimized for industry, right? Whereas sports stars have a, an elite an elite insofar as like their, their genes.It's theirSimone Collins: physical prowess that gets wealth and influence. Not their mind. That's what you're saying. It'sMalcolm Collins: a different optimization function. And it's an optimization function that can arise. I think at equal rates in both of the behavioral groups, it can arise both accidentally was in the group that is focused on.The, the, the lower income group and the higher income group. And so, yeah, this is a path for genetic transfer [00:16:00] between the two groups but it's not a robust path for genetic transfer between the two groups because it's such a relatively rare and odd phenomenon. And the sports stars that succumb to it are typically those who came out of the lower income.By that, what I mean is they're often those who lack a level of self control. When you enter like a lot of sports these days, like NBA and stuff like that they warn you, like there's courses about how women will like invert condoms that you use, how women will try to trick you to get pregnant, how women would.It was a really, I mean, it's such a prodigious problem that it's something that they put a lot of effort into training people to avoid. Yeah, yikes. So people who don't avoid it are, I don't want to say like intentionally not avoiding it, but theySimone Collins: either lack They were warned. They were given fair warning,Malcolm Collins: you're saying.The self control or the, the future planning abilities, or they just don't care. Which is a problem, but it also means that you're also then not dealing [00:17:00] with, because remember I said that people can enter this group of elite physical specimens from either of the two communities but it, but the only communities that are really getting tricked by this are the ones that enter it from the lower income community because the, the other cluster of genetic traits, like low impulse control and stuff like that, that's clustering was in that community as a successful reproductive strategy And I should be clear around all of this.I have no animosity towards either of these groups. I'm just pointing out a phenomenon. These things are genetically linked, and these are two stable, successful genetic strategies and I think that in, in many ways, both of them can add to the betterment of our species, but it is worth calling out that we are, and this isn't a good group and a bad group.Like this is the, I want to be clear about that. However, one group is more likely to be economically successful because that is the core thing that's differentiating them. And that is, [00:18:00] and also I should note that this isn't particularly ethnically clustered. Ethnicities exist.Simone Collins: No, it seems to show up across nations.Yeah, but then are you implying that like the child support is on a broad societal level, something that you could say worsens class divides and income gaps because when you didn't have that, you would have like very very high agency, very high intelligence, high grit high hustle people occasionally.inserting genetic copies, partial genetic copies of themselves into low economic opportunity parts of the population. Thereby giving those groups, like, an end to higher resources, like, as,Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah. Well, it was preventing a level of genetic [00:19:00] isolation and, and I should note, and to be realistic here, there are cultural differences between different ethnic communities.that can lead to them being more susceptible to certain practices. So, for example, if you take the Black community, right, like there is definitely a lot of our Black friends that are like really educated, really smart and they are not going to go out sleeping with random women, regardless of their ethnicity, because they understand the cost of that to them.But they lack one avenue that our white friends have due to cultural pressures, which is that the black successful women we know that can't find a partner but still want to have kids white women will often just, you know, use their gay friend's sperm or something like that, and then have kids and care for them as a single mother, whereas the stigma against black single mothers among black successful communities is so strong that many of our black female friends who are Genetically, like strongly in this, like, super [00:20:00] successful, super competent community are choosing not to have kids.And so I think that it's also important to think about the social pressures that you create as a community. And it's also something that I would encourage, you know, to our black successful female audience. I understand the stigma that's, that's, that's facing you, but you are doing a disservice to your community by not having kids.And I would encourage you to go out and do that because I know there's a lot of you because we know. a number of our black female friends who really want to have kids, but they just can't find a guy that is of their level. And, and, and to be clear, this is also like, a huge problem if the community is, is, is monitoring status in different ways.Whereas, you know, ultra competent individuals may, if they're male, may see different avenues than the classic educational avenue that makes them look like good partners for these women. So maybe expand your boundaries of what you think is acceptable.Simone Collins: Not just by employer and [00:21:00] university and income level.Malcolm Collins: Well, another thing I also noticed within this community is they're more height sensitive than our white friends. Oh boy. Yeah. Which I feel likeSimone Collins: all women are way too height sensitive, but yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah, all women are way too height sensitive, but I would say that height sensitivity and partner selection differs between cultures and cultures differ between ethnic groups.And I, are there any,Simone Collins: wait, are there any cultural groups with a female population? that is cool with dating men shorter than them. I mean, I will admit that like in modern society, women are insane. It's not like, please at least match my height or be a little bit taller, but instead just be insanely tall no matter how short I am.IMalcolm Collins: have not noticed as much pickiness around it in Hispanic and East Asian populations. It's not that they have no care for it at all. They care like, like all humans do, but they are not as hard lying about it as,Simone Collins: But could that be because there are more likely to be [00:22:00] income disparities between men and women?Because the one thing that clearly makes height a no. non issue is a lot of wealth.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, actually, I think that that is what probably makes it. The communities where you see height mattering the most for women, actually, that's a really interesting phenomenon. It's the communities where there is more income equality between men and women, because within both the black and the white communities, there's noSimone Collins: longer income disparities that can make up for the shortness.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're much more likely to have income inequality between genders, and that's probably what explains the phenomenon. Very clever, Simone! I'mSimone Collins: not taking credit for that. Well, and there'sMalcolm Collins: even more inequality within the elite black communities. I notice that, like, elite black women tend to slightly out earn elite black men.Yeah, at least in our anecdotal experience yeah, this phenomenon.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think that's also because, and this is like a weird institutional bug that may not last forever. The elite black men that we know are far [00:23:00] more likely to themselves be entrepreneurs or pursuing very risky investment.Political nonprofit, whatever ventures, right? Like they're not, they're not doing the thing that's going to earn a lot of money. And then the very successful black women that we know are far more likely to be employed by a large corporation that is going to give them disproportionate value because not only are they incredibly high caliber and smart, but they also thank God are not a white male because they desperately need to not hire white males anymore.You know what I mean? So they're going to be paid a premium.Malcolm Collins: The genetic damage that the affirmative action is causing to the American black community in that if you are an ultra competent, ambitious black person, you are much better off going into bureaucratic roles than you are going into entrepreneurial roles because you have an advantage within those roles due to affirmative action.Simone Collins: Well, and the affirmative action is, is also very annoying because to a great extent, these roles that are being offered. I don't see a whole lot of opportunity. And this is a complaint we constantly hear [00:24:00] from these same high caliber women that like they have been, they've been welcomed into these institutions.They are being paid extremely generously and no one is listening to them. OhMalcolm Collins: yeah. No, no, no. It's really interesting. What happens to people is this is weird little honey trap where they get up to a level within these corporations, you know, whether it's, you know, Google or Cisco or whatever. Right. Where they now.Are extremely powerful, extremely well paid bySimone Collins: society. They're not extremely powerful. They're, they're making a lot of money and they're in a very prestigiousMalcolm Collins: high status, but they cannot leave the job to do an entrepreneurial pursuit because, you know, it would be such a cost to them given everything that they've been afforded from this bureaucracy.The opportunitySimone Collins: cost financially isMalcolm Collins: too high. Yeah, but they actually have a floor. Preventing them from entering real leadership roles. They can enter token leadership roles, but not real leadership roles.Simone Collins: Because talk about a trap, like that is so damaging, like not all. So the only thing that affirmative action is giving to some [00:25:00] people in some cases, and it's typically people who already come from somewhat privileged backgrounds, but happened to be the right.Yeah, checkbox. They're giving some opportunities, but they're not giving them power. They're not giving them influence. They're not getting them satisfaction and they're not giving them high fertility culture. So this is really bad. This isMalcolm Collins: really bad. It's like a mouse trap for, for these communities.It's, it's, it's, it's horrifying. ErasingSimone Collins: their best and brightest. What onMalcolm Collins: earth? I, I, yeah, I find it genuinely repulsive because these communities produce some really interesting orthogonal thinkers who don't think like the communities that are often most likely to go into you know, entrepreneurship and stuff like that, because it's, it's through orthogonal thought that you can now compete with an entrepreneurship, which is one of the reasons why first generation immigrants do so well.But I wanted to end this particular topic with a shout out for something one of our listeners is doing. Because one of our listeners reached out to us and we always try to promote when they're working on something that's like aligned with our work. So this [00:26:00] organization is, if you wanted to report, so I think that it was started with the motivation of like, really unfair things happening within family courts and stuff like that.But, but to quote him, you know, if you want to report a woke teacher or school board member. This is your opportunity to shine. And every time somebody Googles their name, they will live in infinity. No more denials . This will be our chance to shine.And, and other people can give reviews to these individuals. So basically. Once somebody does something really egregious from like a woke perspective, there isn't a good mechanism to snap back against them right now was in the bureaucracy, right? There is no counterpoint to this. There is no. Real punishment for going overboards in terms of cultural imperialism, which is what we see on the left right now, the belief that their culture is naturally superior to all other cultures, and that everyone else is basically just savages in their wake and must have their [00:27:00] cultures awaked, erased, and that they are only uplifting the children by taking them from their families, because that is how.Always a great thing to think. That always makes you look good in the eyes of history. But the name of his website, if you want to check this out again, I haven't really vetted this project that much, but it sounded reasonable to me, okay? Is familylawaccountability. com, and I'll put that on the screen here.And I think that that's a cool project and I wanted to talk about it was in this episode because I figured a lot of people who are having trouble with child support systems and unfair courts and stuff like that might click on an episode titled something around child support. Interesting.Simone Collins: Cool.Thanks for sharing that. I hadn't heard of thatMalcolm Collins: yet. Yeah, well, it's a, it's a good project. Like I'm genuinely, I'm like, yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. You know, he's not out here asking us to promote him or something. Fair. Anyway, I love you to death, Simone, and I'm so, I found this episode pretty entertaining.Simone Collins: Yeah, I'm glad you explained this to me in [00:28:00] greater detail, because I was obviously so confused when you first explained this to me, because sometimes thinking is really hard.Malcolm Collins: Do you think that it could, that it's actually a phenomenon that we're seeing that didn't exist historically? Or do you think I'mSimone Collins: hallucinating?I think that you can see levels of, of even human speciation historically, not, not in terms of like, oh, they can't interbreed anymore, but like to a certain extent, I almost feel like there's been speciation culturally, like even within generations. So there's not like a genetic incompatibility, but we've reached a point at which like some groups are now so culturally and like.Um, worldview incompatible that they're almost like different species. Like each of them will view the other, like an animal that they cannot comprehend and that cannot possibly have a soul because they're so different. And they don't make any sense. And they cannot empathize with them and they, they will not see them as human.And that really scares me because when you get that level of. A, a lack of ability to empathize [00:29:00] or relate to other groups. That's when you start seeing atrocities, that's when you start seeing violence. And I, I very much worry about it. So, yeah, I mean, this is an important thing to think about and to keep an eye out for.And it's great to know some mechanisms that might make it worse. .Malcolm Collins: Yay. I love you, Simone. And I'm, I love you too. I'm so fortunate that I don't need to worry about child support with you,Simone Collins: Yeah, I think we're gonnaMalcolm Collins: be okay. . Oh goodness. All right. This is a public episode. 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Malcolm, Simone, and controversial writer Raw Egg Nationalist have a far-ranging discussion on where humanity may be headed in the future. They talk about a potential split between high willpower "physical elites" and "cognitive elites", compared to a drugged up underclass losing agency and personal responsibility. Other topics include fertility correlates, the failures of trad-con thinking, why kids need protection from indoctrination, targeting of dissidents' children, and more.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Malcolm Collins here with Simone, and we are joined by raw egg nationalists. I would be very surprised if there are members of our audience who don't know who he is. But, he, he, he's a really an influencer and sort of the conservative lifestyle space, specifically focused on trying to raise awareness around the feminization of the male body due to things like endocrine disruptors,if you. Want to follow him on Twitter. His, his at is baby gravy nine and he's written five books at this point He's got a sub stack you can check out and yeah Man's world magazine. Oh, yes, of course man's world and it's gonna have a physical edition soon I've heard which is pretty cool. I'd like to see that in stores The the powers that be well probably never let that happen.So long as it keeps being honest but the topic that I wanted to focus on today was where do you think [00:01:00] society is going like 500 years in the future? And you can chart this in steps, like where you think things are going in 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, et cetera. So let's go.Raw Egg Nationalist: Well, it's, it's great to be back.We had such a wonderful conversation last time. I'm, I'm sure this is, this is going to be fantastic too. So, fundamentally, I think I have a, I have a kind of HG Wells esque vision of the future. I think what we're going to see is we're going to see a kind of, a kind of split. In the human race, I think, I mean, I like to, I'm an, I'm an optimist, or I try to be an optimist in many ways about people's ability to take control of their lives.You know, I mean, I tell people, look, there are simple things that you can do. You're overweight, you can lose weight. You know, you, you can stop eating as much food as you're eating. You can get active, you can reduce your exposure to endocrine disruptors, and you know, you can transform your life. You will be, if you do that, you will be unrecognizable [00:02:00] in a year.Three years, five years, you'll be a totally different person on my slightly less optimistic days. And I do think that actually there is a large segment of the population that now we'll find it impossible not to be. enormously unhealthy, to be dysgenically unhealthy. And, I mean, you only need to look at the emergence of drugs like Azempic, for instance, Wegovy, you know, these, these fat loss miracle, miracle drugs that are being marketed now.You know, I mean, they're being explicitly marketed on the, on the assumption. That the majority of people just can't lose weight any other way. Yeah. We, we can't reform society in, in ways that will make it easier for people to make the right choices. And so what you have to do is you have to rely on pharma to do it.So that's, so this is, this is really where I think it comes in. I think there will be a, there will be fundamentally, I don't know at [00:03:00] what point, maybe it's happening right now. There will be a kind of selection event almost where people with willpower will kind of... We'll kind of break away from the rest of society into a kind of, a physical elite, I think.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I, I, one thing I want to add to this, because I think it's really interesting, and this, for me, has been a big turnaround in my relationship with people of Rotundity. Which is contextualizing for myself that obesity is about as genetic as IQ, so very genetic, like 0. 8. However, it does not appear from my research that this level of genetic correlation with obesity is due to any biological change.It's not like these people have higher or lower metabolism. Actually, human metabolism does not change that much. It would make a difference if you're going, like, two and a half standard deviations from the norm of, like, 200 calories a day. So, like... a candy bar and that's it. So what, what is really then happening here with obesity?[00:04:00] I think to what you're getting is that willpower is enormously genetic. And so it would make sense what you're talking about. If you begin to have. People separating out, you will have, and I think that this is very different from what a lot of people anticipate, which is like, oh, society will split into like a high IQ and low IQ group, whereas you're saying no, it's going to split into maybe a high willpower, low willpower group, which I could see, I'd be I'd be much more interested in marrying a high willpower person than a high IQ person.Simone Collins: Well, I think the, what's going on with Osempic and we go via all the semi glutide interventions is it really does demonstrate that this is a willpower thing. Why is that the case? Well, these don't actually slow your metabolism. They make you feel less hungry. So what they're really controlling is willpower in a sense and not, not actual metabolism, which is really, in fact, they're, they're adversely affecting your metabolism because when you lose so much weight, your metabolism drops and then people go off it.And of course, they gain weight super fast because their body's like, Oh, we're starving.Raw Egg Nationalist: So yeah. [00:05:00] And, and what, and what also happens is of course that that there've been a couple of studies that have showed this, but you don't just lose fat, you lose muscle. Yeah. And mu and muscle is much more metabolically expensive to maintain than fat.So actually, oh, you lose, you lose 200 pounds or whatever, but you've actually lost a huge amount of skeletal muscle and then you, unlessSimone Collins: you're actively weight training while you're losing. Yeah, like there are some like nerds who are definitely going for that. Like they're really like, they're aware of the problem, but you don't.Like, that's like, first off, if you're disciplined enough to lift weights while you're going through this, then you're probably not the kind of person who absolutely needs to use dem semaglutide. No,Raw Egg Nationalist: exactly. So it's. But what they're, and what they're talking about as well is they're talking about using Azempic and other GLP 1 receptor agonists.That's the class of drugs that Azempic belongs to. They're talking about using them now to treat other forms of addiction. They're talking about using them to treat alcoholism, for instance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,Simone Collins: I was just having a conversation with an obesity doctor and [00:06:00] another super smart guy about this.And for example, we've had naltrexone forever to treat alcoholism and a bunch of other forms of addiction, but people don't really like how it makes them feel, right? Cause nothing's really that much fun. And you know, these, these new, this new class of drugs is. a lot more pleasant to use, even though there are some unpleasant side effects.So yeah, it could have a really interesting effect. And it is interesting. I want to see a lot more research on the effects that these do have, even like people have, I don't know how, how much this is anecdotal for people or a placebo effect, you know, reporting less time on social media, less time gambling, et cetera.It's super interesting.Raw Egg Nationalist: Well, the side, the side effects of, of semaglutide and these other drugs are very interesting. I've written a written. quite, quite length about them. I wrote a piece, I wrote a piece for American Mind called Fatty's Little Helper. And it was, I mean, I talked at length about the side effects in particular and they're nasty.They're really nasty. And people are, people are starting to realize now. So one of the, one of the [00:07:00] increased risks from a Zempik is inhaling the contents of your stomach. So, if you, yeah, so, a Zempik, it, normally your stomach empties in a few hours, and what a Zempik does is it, is it slows the movement of food out of your stomach, to a rate of, I mean, it basically doesn't move at all, and in fact, you can get stomach paralysis, but it might take three weeks for your stomach to empty, rather than Oh, three weeks?Yeah. So what happens is if you're, if you're fat and you are on a Zempik, you're probably, I mean, hugely fat. Now you're likely to have a gastric bypass as well. They're recommending bariatric surgery in, in conjunction with use of a Zempik. Well, you lay, you lay down on the table. Your stomach is still full, and, and so the gastric juices and the food in your stomach comes back up out of your throat and you inhale it into your lungs and you can, you can die.Okay. But that is, that is called gastroparesis. Wow. Gastroparesis. No,Malcolm Collins: [00:08:00] it's well, I, I imagine these people, they don't adapt to the new behavior immediately, so they're probably overeating for their new digestive.Raw Egg Nationalist: I don't, yeah, but that's a, so that's a se that's a serious risk. The other risk is of chronic obstructive chronic obstructions in the, in the intestines.So they reckon that that might be how Lisa Marie Presley died, or Priscilla Presley, I forget which, which she had. She'd been on a mega, a mega weight loss drive before the premiere of the new Elvis film. And she had already had bariatric surgery because she'd struggled with weight in the past.Bariatric surgery scars the intestines and it can make them sort of ruckle up almost. And it makes it harder for food to pass through. Well, then you take a Zempig as well. And I just slows to us, the food. basically doesn't move and you get an obstruction and that's how she died. She died of a, of a bowel obstruction.So there's that as well. But then, but then there's [00:09:00] also the fact that in rat studies, in rodent studies, then these GLP 1 agonist drugs like semaglutide and others reliably cause thyroid tumors in the longterm. Oh, interesting.Malcolm Collins: Can you quickly go over, if you happen to know the mechanism of action of these drugs?Raw Egg Nationalist: sO they, they, what is it? I think it's either, it's, it's either, I think it's either ghrelin or leptin. They work on the receptors in the stomach that signal satiety, basically. I don't know the exact mechanism. So they, they signal to your brain that you're, that you're satiated, but they also slow the digestion of your stomach slow the movement of things from your stomach.So you, you are actually more full.Malcolm Collins: So Simone, you were saying that they could be used for alcohol. How would that work?Simone Collins: Yeah, I don't. So that's, that's what I, so what Ryan Nationalist said is, is what I understand as well, that, that affects satiety and slows digestion. I don't know how or why this would affect.Malcolm Collins: [00:10:00] I think people are getting confused with opioid. No, no,Simone Collins: no. I really, no, no, no, because again, people taking these drugs are reporting these other effects. What I think is happening here is, you know how they say never go shopping hungry. I think that when people feel hungry, they also are engaging in more impulsive behavior.aNd, and that, that I think is what may be at play when you feel really full. Are you like super keen, like imagine you just ate like a giant holiday meal, like, do youMalcolm Collins: want to go like, like the roulette table? Oh, that's fascinating, you know another fascinating effect of this is that sexuality changes when people are hungry, if you remember this from our book, I don't.Even as these drugs become more common we could see changes in human sexuality some really obvious ones are men, prefer smaller breasts when they're less hungry and they prefer larger breasts when they're more hungry. This is also true of poor versus wealthy men. Basically, if your resource scarce, you're going to optimize for women who look like they have more access to resources.So ladiesSimone Collins: schedule your breast reduction. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Or if you, you, you [00:11:00] have access to copious resources as a man, you're typically going to optimize for women who look like they have a longer reproductive. Cycle, i. e. our younger. So that's really interesting as well. I wonder if in women there's similar like, like sexual changes when they're, when they're not hungry.Raw Egg Nationalist: Well, there, I mean, there have been, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure there probably, I'm sure there probably are. I know, I mean, I know that there are, that there are certainly studies that show that women's mate preferences change when they go on and come off hormonal contraception. That's a big one. That's a big one.And you know, it's been shown that that I think that women, women, when they're on, I can't remember whether it's when they're on contraception or when they're off that they prefer more masculine faces and obviously more masculine faces indicative of higher levels of testosterone. But yeah, so I would, I would.I mean, all of these hormones, I think what we have to remember is that these hormones have all sorts of effects. You know, we, we talked in the last episode about testosterone is the aggressive hormone that people just think it's about aggression when actually it regulates almost every kind of behavior you can think every type of behavior [00:12:00] you can think of in men and in women as well.And I think that even appetite hormones like ghrelin and leptin and things like that, then they must obviously be involved in very complicated circuits of, of reward and appetite and, and will within the brain. So yes, I mean, I, I think that Yeah, I think, I think you could definitely, you should, if they haven't done a study of women's sexual preferences when they're hungry and when they're satiated, then they should.I justMalcolm Collins: pulled one up, by the way. Okay, so here are the differences. So this one looked at men and women. So for men, it found that hungry males, in line with what I was saying, preferred females with more physically mature features. Specifically females who were heavier, taller, and older. Female participants who are hungry showed elevated preferences for partners with a more mature personality profile.Simone Collins: So like beards?Malcolm Collins: No, personality profile. I. E. less probably impulsive, more muted, [00:13:00] like an old man. BecauseSimone Collins: when a woman is full, then she's probably into like... Younger, more riskyMalcolm Collins: seeming men? Is that what you're calling them? Yeah, yeah, that's my guess. It's probably this like, Alpha, they're like, when I think what is a young personality profile for a male, it's the typical alpha profile.Simone Collins: Whereas Someone who will go out and like, kill something for them to eat.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, well, and who's constantly signaling their virtue, like, well, not their virtue, but their what's the word I'm looking for? Prowess. Yeah. Prowess dominance, et cetera. Yeah. Whereas older men are typically not signaling those things as much.I'm pretty sure that's specifically what they're looking at. Which is interesting because it could mean that a lot of these alpha mindsets are going to be less attractive to women in the near future if they're all on Ozempic.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, I would be more interested. I mean, like, so I think a woman is more likely to want to date someone on Ozempic than a man.And I say this because like men on Ozempic. You know, I mean, pretty much anyone on either has really good health insurance. They can pay for it or they're wealthy, right? Cause this is not [00:14:00] cheap.Malcolm Collins: Well, men are no Zimbic are going to like fat women. That's what the studies show. You know, you're more into older, fatter women.I think women are going to be really pushing this.Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. So then that's, that's fortunate, but I yeah, I mean, I, I'm just trying to think of the correlatory factors with who's taking a Zimbic. I think men are going to prefer women who are not taking a Zimbic. So why do you say that? Because they're, they're.They've better inhibitory control and they're probably...Malcolm Collins: Most men don't care, they just care what women look like. That's true, fair. Oh well. Okay, let's, let's talk about this split in humanity, right? High will, low will category. But they may look fairly similar, it's just the amount of drugs that they're using.Like, what are your thoughts on that?Raw Egg Nationalist: I, I think, I think we may very well see physical differences start to emerge. Now, I don't know. I'm not a, any kind of genetic specialist, so I can't tell you how many, how many generations it takes, for instance. It happens really quick, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, I mean, I've read, uh, one of my favorite books is Western [00:15:00] Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.This is an amazing, amazing, it's what I think it's the best book on nutrition ever written, written in the written in the 1930s. He was a dentist and he, he went and he visited, uh, well, he was a dentist and he, he observed in his patients in Cleveland that they were developing all sorts of facial deformities and behavioral difficulties, especially the children.And he thought it was something to do with the diet because. They were starting to eat more and more industrially produced foods rather than the kind of foods that their parents and grandparents had eaten, locally produced whole foods, animal foods, etc. He went on a globetrotting adventure looking for tribal societies that still ate their traditional diets as a kind of comparison case for You know, for people eating industrial diets in the West and I mean, he discovered, for instance in the Scottish Highlands, the, the, the Highlanders of Scotland were once the tallest people in Europe.They were regularly six foot seven, [00:16:00] six foot eight, seven feet tall, sometimes, you know, hugely tall people. And then within a generation after they stopped. eating their traditional diets after they stopped eating fish livers baked with oats and, and, you know, lots of milk and butter and all that kind of stuff.Started eating industrial food stuff, bleached flour, canned foods, all that kind of stuff. They shrank six inches, something like that, in a generation. Yeah, there was massive, massive shrinkage, apparently. I mean, I still think Highlanders are tall, but, but... So, so yes, I mean, I probably think it could happen quite quickly, and I do, I do think that there will be, on a long enough timeline, then we will see, we will see something like, like what H.G. Wells describes in The Time Machine, I think. Unless, of course, there are interventions with technology, maybe, that, that sort of counter the, the just, the dysgenic influence of bad lifestyle, massive medication, inactivity, all that kind [00:17:00] of stuff. But I do think that what we're going to get is a self selecting, very small, a much smaller minority, self selecting, an in group that sort of mates within the in group. And it will, it will be a physical elite, but I think it will be a cognitive elite too. I mean, bad life, bad lifestyles, you have to understand obesity, lack of exercise, you know, they have epigenetic effects on every aspect of your body, including your brain. And I mean, I think that there was a study, I did see a study, I think that correlated obesity with IQ, some, something.Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, they do seem to correlate in general, like, Also, that's a really high correlate withMalcolm Collins: hyperthroid, unfortunately. Yeah, so, so other than IQ, obesity, I think it's the second highest corollary with fertility rate. The genetic so specifically here, what I'm saying is the polygenic score. So like the genetic code that is associated with Obesity is also heavily associated and can be used as a predictor for how many kids [00:18:00] someone is going to have.So we will see, and it's being selected for almost as much as the one for low IQ is being selected for. So we're very likely to see a, a rapid rise in obesity, given that it's about as genetic as IQ, and it's being selected for about as much as IQ. We should probably see the same one standard, but, but it.opposite. One standard deviation shift upwards in obesity within the next 75 years in terms of the genetic correlates for it, which is at least within the mainstream population that isn't performing any sort of strong sexual selection practices, which is why it's important to begin to think about, like, what do the sexual selection practices of your family look like?What are you telling your kids if they're going out there? And this is one of the really toxic things that I think comes from You know, sort of the, the red pill mindset if they're going out there and optimizing on banging hot chicks, that is not optimizing for genetic fitness in a world of things like Ozympic and stuff like that.You need to [00:19:00] be banging and or not even banging. You need to be marrying sane chicks. You can go out there and bang hot chicks, but you need to marry it. And there are not many of them. They are a far greater prize than a hot chick in today's environment. And it is very easy to accidentally, you know, marry someone who, who has these negative causes or negative genetic correlates.When you didn't intend to, I'm not saying like. Freeze them out. It depends on your culture's. Optimization. The culture that Simone and I would create for our kids. I would want them to marry people who are you know, psychologically healthy and that, that have a, yeah, but it's up to the individual.I just think that this can be hidden from individuals So it's it's very easy to to have a genetically permeable culture when you didn't intend toRaw Egg Nationalist: yeah Yeah, I think that's I mean there's yeah, I I I don't I don't really know. I don't really know what to add to that. Actually, that's what I'll say.I think that's I think that's I think [00:20:00] that's that's that's a tremendous way to put it. And I think that there, I think you're right about the limits of the, of the red pill mindset. I mean, I, I'm sure I probably get lumped in with, with these red pill kind of, types, but I don't, I, I have a, a much more nuanced understanding, I think.And I try to put forward a much more nuanced interpretation of Relations between men and women than a lot of these kind of red pill gurus do it's definitely, it's definitely more complicated than just, you know, the, the solution is to, as you say, is to go out and have sex with as many attractive women as possible because of course, because of course you know, there are, there are ways to make oneself attractive in the short term that actually have absolutely no correspondence whatsoever with longterm fitness, you know, and, and I mean, they always say, you know, it's like, You might want to sleep with a woman, but you're not necessarily going to be the woman you marry, is it?And I mean, that is, I think that is very true. And I think that I think that we're in a difficult position because of course you need to be discerning But it's actually [00:21:00] becoming much harder to be discerning as well. I mean, I think you always should be discerning but actually um The the prize the size of the prize if you will is shrinking and it is harder and harder Even with even with dating apps and things like that because actually in many respects dating apps are a false economy dating account dating apps you know they actually probably the kind of women and the kind of men that are on dating apps are probably of a very particular kind and actually if that is your sole pool for for reproduction and the possibility of reproduction then actually you may very well be filtering out precisely the kind of people that you should be meeting that you would want that ideally you would want to meet but actually You're just never going to meet them because it's all the crazy BPD, BPD crazy women on there.Simone Collins: We see that a lot in, in the far future. What would you hope for? Like, I feel like right now we're at this, this point in society where things could go one of many ways. [00:22:00] And the things that we do now, our actions. Can point us in one direction or another. I think this is a great time to live because of that.Is there a direction in which you'd like to nudge society? And if so, what would it produce over the long run?Raw Egg Nationalist: I suppose I, I would love to live. I would love to live in a society that valued health, that valued true health and Because of course we don't. And you know, I write about, I write about all sorts of things.I write about the way that the FDA licenses chemicals, for instance. The fact that we operate on a presumption of safe until proven otherwise. And I've said, well actually look, it's very obvious actually that, that many chemicals are, Extremely harmful in the long term you can do these short term studies But actually you don't get any idea of of the real effects of the chemicals Until it's too late until it's 70 years down the line and and we're decades away from a from a profound reproductive crisis so I mean I would like to nudge society in a direction where actually we [00:23:00] we we see the ultimate value not as as as commercial value not as money, but as actually the Flourishing human life.That's what I would which would be much much closer to you know, kind of ancient greek conception of of the good life of Kind of yeah the kind of of the kind of social life that should be fostered, you know It's not just about it's not just about money. It's not about the commercial applications of of new products of new chemicals.It's actually about How do we live how should we live yeahMalcolm Collins: and i'd also point out here and i think this is probably i don't know if you but i would definitely consider myself part of the red pill community so when i'm saying the red pill community has these problems i'm talking internally about the community not as an outsider who's like a ha silly red pillars i'm more like hey.Let's make sure that we and I, and the community is maturing dramatically. Like if you look at where it is versus where it was 10 years ago. I, I think that it is the community that to a [00:24:00] large extent has transformed into this. Well, raw egg nationalism, right?Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think that, yeah, I think, I think you're right about that.I think you're right about that. I mean, I would, yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm red pilled in certain respects and I certainly recognize that you know, that a lot of, a lot of the stuff that even the sort of archetypal masculinity guru, you know, of the past. said is true and people like heart east for instance, who's a kind of you know, do you remember heart east?He was yeah. Yeah. Yeah people like that You know, they a lot of the stuff that they said particularly about hypergamy That kind of stuff. I mean, it's totally it's totally true It's totally true and I think that people people need to understand it there's a kind of what I would say is that actually maybe as the red pill community has become more popular, then of course it's been democratized and it's been watered down and you get these people who just, you know, reheat these very, very old takes endlessly for, you know, for likes on social [00:25:00] media.But actually, I think that the fundamental, the fundamental, the fundamental motivation behind the red pill community, I think is He's right and I think I think some of the fund the fundamental insights are right as well, tooMalcolm Collins: So it's really interesting the way that you're wording this because this is giving me a bit of a revelation is when I hear like Red pill takes that remind me of red pill takes from when the community was still just called red pill, right?Like i'm like, oh, that's a really reused take like that's really old and I think the reason is is because the community really mined all of the ideas and all of the the revelations that could have come from this world perspective Within its first like three and a half years of existing and now all of the evolutions of the movement are related on diverging ideals because all of the obvious takes were already mined and so you still have some people like going over those obvious takes but of course the community would evolve and sort of undergo adaptive radiation.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah. Yeah, precisely. Precisely. I mean, [00:26:00] I think what you're seeing is, yes, is people actualizing the kind of red pill insights in different ways. And, you know, so you, you might have someone like Rollo Tomasi who's saying, you know, get, get a vasectomy. And You know, I mean, I think you can agree with some of the stuff that Rollo Tomasi has said, at the same time as thinking, well, that's, that's deeply stupid.I mean,Malcolm Collins: I think a lot of men are right in thinking that they'll never get a fair deal in our society right now. And that, you know, we can, I mean, as I've mentioned, a lot of this stuff is genetic. You can be like a smart person and just understand that you have enormously low willpower and you're never going to achieve what you want to achieve because you just don't have the willpower for it.And, and we can say net up and try to push yourself through it. But I think when I look at the, like the genetic research, I don't know if that's a fair thing for me to be telling people.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, and I mean, I think, I think as well, then you see a lot of, you see a lot of stupidity on the, on the opposite, or maybe not the op, the opposing side, but the, for instance, like the kind of [00:27:00] trad side where people are saying, you know, everything will be fine if you just get married and have kids.I mean, people, people, people should get married, I think, and people should have children, but that isn't, that's not the be all and end all. That isn't, that isn't gonna solve, that isn't gonna solve the fundamental problems that are, that have been raised, for instance, by the red bill community. So, we, weMalcolm Collins: have an episode about this that I...Because it's, it's one of my favorite episodes, which is how girl defined ruined an entire generation of women. And of course, this was a play on the you know, how Scott Pilgrim ruined an entire generation of women. But the idea being is that. There was this conservative mindset for a while.The conservative influence with online adapted and, and Girl Defying did this where they basically told people, if you just live by these conservative rules and you get married and you save yourself for marriage and you have kids, everything will be all right. And the point we were making in that video is no, like, like specifically, it wasn't even just everything will be all right.It's you will get the things [00:28:00] that secular society has been promising you. At a higher level than you can achieve them through sexual, through secular society, like, you know, hedonistic sexual gratification like, relationship that works well without you having to put effort in, and that just wasn't true the, the, the rewards.for chastity and the rewards for willpower are not the same rewards that secular society is handling, handing out. I think they're better rewards. I think they're more meaningful rewards, but it's very easy to miss that it's a completely different optimization function and a different set of rewards you should be expecting.And that just because you follow these rules doesn't mean that there aren't hard things that you're going to have to go through every day.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, yeah, precisely, precisely. And also, I think as well there's a kind of it's almost presented as a kind of Benedict option as well. It's like, you know, you can, you can retreat from the world.If you just get married and have your nice trad family, you know, everything will be okay. And, [00:29:00] and as, as we know, you know, there's still it's a public education system, massive propaganda apparatus, we do have to change the world. We can't, we can't, we can't retreat from the world. We actually have to change the world.Yeah,Simone Collins: and if we retreat, eventually the world is going to come for us. Especially because, as Malcolm frequently points out, the sort of dominant culture doesn't have any other way to get more members than by stealing them because they're not reproducing above repopulation rate. Also thinking long term, one thing I wanted to ask you is what you think...In 50 years, a hundred years, 500 years is going to be seen as like completely barbaric about the way we live now. Assuming that, you know, what we live, what, what people are like in the future has been selected for. Like, I mean, you know, those who survive those who reproduce, what will they think of? today as being just insane?Raw Egg Nationalist: That's a, that's a, that's a very good question. I mean, I think we're, we're already seeing, so, you know, I was talking about the advertising for a Zempik. We're already seeing this notion that it is, that it is basically barbaric [00:30:00] to suggest that people intervene to make their own lives better. Yeah. You know, it's like, no, you know, you can't stop, you can't stop eating.You cannot close the fridge. You cannot, you cannot get up off the sofa and Well, that sounds like fatMalcolm Collins: phobia to me.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, I know. It sounds prettyMalcolm Collins: hateful. I think we might get this video demonetized for that kind of talk.Raw Egg Nationalist: But, but I think, but I think that what we're gonna see is we're gonna see a real a real growth of that mindset and I think that it will be Pushed by big pharma because it's being pushed by big pharma now It's novo nordisk who's paying for the advertising that says you can't get you can't lose weight other than by taking his mpick So I think that I mean, I think that if if there is this split that i've posited then there may very well be You know one segment of society that just truly believes that actually human beings are almost Like inert, inert objects upon which external forces act and [00:31:00] it is barbaric in any way to expect Independent volition from you know, your average fat or from from anybody, you know from your average fatty So I think that what you might see then is you might see a you maybe you'll see a kind of Ayn Randian split, you know where you've got like these these Ultra high achieving physical specimens who believe that actually any notion that that that anything is beyond your will Is that's barbaric the notion that you know You should coddle people in any way and then you've got the other side of society these people who perhaps believe that actually You can't expect any willpower whatsoever on any level from people that people are just objects YeahMalcolm Collins: Well, and it is interesting to me that a lot of these things that are correlated with these lower willpower groups are also correlated with high fertility which means that not only is fertility trauma, and it's likely, I had to guess what's causing this, it's likely that these are the kids, you know, as we say, there's really only two reasons to have a lot more than two kids.It's either because you have some [00:32:00] exogenous ideological motivation, like that's what's motivating you to do it, or you simply couldn't figure out birth control. You know, either you lacked the initiative to think ahead or whatever, and I think that that's why you're getting this correlation here.Raw Egg Nationalist: The welfare state as well, I think.Yeah, thatMalcolm Collins: as well. And so I think what this means is not only are kids dropping in the world, but even faster, and I think the hidden thing that's happening at a much higher rate is these high willpower and other correlations, cultural groups or kids born into them, they are going to be exceedingly rare going into the future, and that means they are the next Bitcoin.High willpower kids are the next Bitcoin, because as Simone was saying, you know, the mainstream society needs these people, and it needs them disproportionately. That's why we know it's coming for our kids. That's why you can't just go Benedict, because if you have kids, Then you have the one asset they really want and they will come in and they will find a way to take those kids from you.[00:33:00] And you can see this. If you look at the, you know, highest profile people in our society, like the Elans or whatever, right? Like they targeted his kids aggressively, right? Like that is, is something that any of us should expect. And we need to steal our children against and build communities for them and build systems that help them find spouses in a world where it's going to become increasingly difficult.And I do think it is a. Parents failure as much as the kids. If you if the kid cannot find a spouse because that that required your, you know, your networking and your culture building and your advice. If you put them in a situation without realizing how much the world was changing around you. And I just can't tell a kid.Oh, just, you know. F*****g go to a bar like that doesn't work anymore, you know,Raw Egg Nationalist: yeah No, I think I think that's I think that's very very true I think I think the emphasis on parental maybe that's another thing that will be that will be considered barbaric is leaving your children To defend you to figure everything out for [00:34:00] themselves I mean that is a that is a hallmark of the kind of boomer liberal sort of yeah mode of parenting, right?Is it's like, Oh, you know, everyone, you have to be free to make your own mistakes. But actually some mistakes are fatal and you can make fatal mistakes very early in your life.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's funny. You mentioned this is, is people often hear about our parenting strategy and they go, Oh my gosh, I can't believe you're going to tell your kids who to be, you know, you're gonna, you're, and they're like, that's so abusive.And it's like, This is what every culture throughout human history has done until you guys came along. And the only reason why you're against this is because this is one of the tactics you use to separate children from their support networks. You know, as we always say, all cults, they need to separate individuals from their parents and their support networks.And that's often what they focus on doing first. So the mainstream society, the cult, you know, it, it tells kids your parents giving you advice on who to be or, or putting pressure on you in terms of who to be and what to achieve in life, [00:35:00] that is intrinsically abusive, which is a great psychological tool if you are trying to pry children from high effectiveness cultures.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%. I mean, I do think, the Elon, to go back to the Elon stuff, I mean, the Elon stuff is quite shocking, really, the way that his children have been targeted by trans activists, and, you know, in, in public, and not only have they done it, but they've also said, we're transing, we transed your daughter, I think is what they said, or your son, and, yeah, it's, it's terrifying, but that is, in a microcosm that is, that is society at large.And, you know, I mean, parents, parents are shocked when they discover, you know, when they see a photo of a classroom and they see all of the, all of the banners and the slogans and the pride flags and the love is love and all this kind of stuff on the wall. But it's like, you should know, you should, you should be taking enough of an interest in your child's education to know that [00:36:00] that is, that that stuff is on the wall and that they're being taught by a a rainbow haired .But people don't until it's People don't until it's too late.Malcolm Collins: Well, so, we already have this with our kids. Like, we get told online, regularly, like, we are going to target your kids. Like, that is our goal. Is to turn your kids against you. In any way that we can no, I will say, I think that the, the parts of the trans movement right now that have just spiraled out of control, I think that they're actually, they won't be relevant by the time my kids are growing up they, they seem to have lost the, the will of the people Which unfortunately is dragging down, I think, a lot of what I would consider the real trans people.I mean, there is, there is obviously an effect of all these endocrine disruptors in our environment. Like, like, it would almost be surprising if we didn't see an explosion of actually people who are identifying as a different gender. So, I I feel for them being dragged through the mud by the crazy people.But those, those crazy people definitely exist right now. And I wonder what the [00:37:00] next movement, what the next iteration of crazy is going to be that targets our kids for conversion. My guess right now, if I'm looking at things, is it's going to be the... Negative utilitarian effortless.I think that's going to be the next big movement, the voluntary extinction movement.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah. And I, well, I, yeah, and I think it's going to come hand in hand with the climate change movement, of course. Oh yeah, absolutely.Malcolm Collins: Well, I think it's going to be what the climate change movement transforms into. So a portion of them will be motivated by climate change, but I think, and I see this already because I think the climate change movement.doesn't have the popular will it used to, you know, you look at there's a great study, I think, done on like Gen Z, it was looking at like Greta Thunberg's generation, right? And they are actually much less environmentally friendly than previous generations. They just actually aren't motivated by the climate change movement anymore.They use people like Greta to speak to old people, but she was not actually effective at communicating with her generation.Raw Egg Nationalist: It's very, it's very noticeable when you look at these just stop oil protests, like you see, you [00:38:00] know, footage of The Just Stop Oil protestors in London and they're sat on, they're sat on the motorway or something.It's all old people now. It's all like retired school teachers and civil servants and doctors. There are very few young people.Malcolm Collins: Young people don't give a s**t about the environment. But, but I think that they're moving because what does sell to young people is doomerism. And that's what the negative utilitarians, that's what the anti natalists offer young people is doomerism.They say, humanity is a scourge and we need to end it. And, and, and I think that those are going to be the groups that aggressively target our kids the most. Is the ones who want them to hate their lives. And I think that they are going to be surprised by how resistant our kids are to these messages. Because we have, Had the fortune of seeing what happened to people like Elon and to build very specific social tools and mechanisms for our kids so that they will be more protected by people who want to indoctrinate them to [00:39:00] punish their parents.Raw Egg Nationalist: Well, listen, you, you have my full support. You are, you are, no, you are, you are, I mean this genuinely, you are good parents because it is a, it is a.It is a, it, I mean, the world is terrible full stop, you know, there's been, the world has been terrible since its inception, but there are unique problems, problems that are unique to our situation today and parents need to know about them and they need to do something about them, they need to protect their children because once they're gone, they're goneMalcolm Collins: as well.I mean, No, historically, once they were gone, you know, you'd lose them to, like, I don't know, dyed hair for a few years or something like that, and then they come back to you because they're like, oh, mom and dad, you were right. Now, once they're gone, they're gone. They have developed more advanced procedures to ensure that.And I, I do appreciate, you know, you, you saying there's the term that we used to use for people like us, face Fs. But but, but I, I appreciate your discretion in the public eye and it's, it's [00:40:00] likely the best thing for your family, which, which is very understandable.Simone Collins: I would say guys, there's actually a lot of hope.I mean, To be quite honest, Malcolm, the, like, Eliphists and the environmental antinatalists, like, they aren't going to last longer than a couple generations. And anyone who chooses to adopt that belief with every new generation is also not going to have kids. So I feel like over time, that kind of culture just isn't going to be able to spread because over time, you know, basically anyone who might have that kind of tendency, they're being selected against and, and sterilized.So I feel like the. The future that we can expect, especially in a post, like a post modern world with lots of technology is going to be very pronatalist because everyone else is just not,Malcolm Collins: not going to reproduce. Well, I agree. We gotta, but what I'm saying is who's going to be targeting our kids? Yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah.Well, I mean, yeah, yeah. That's a question.Malcolm Collins: Anyway I I am so [00:41:00] excited that we had you on again. This, this podcast was incredible. I really liked it. And I hope our audience does as well and they should really check out your sub stack, your Twitter, which is again, baby gravyRaw Egg Nationalist: nine. Yes.Simone Collins: And Men's World Magazine, plus all of RAG Nationalist's existing books on Amazon.There are four, but there is a fifth one on the way. And if you go to his sub stack, you may get some sneak peeks of it. So do notRaw Egg Nationalist: miss it. Thank you. Thank you. Listen, it's been, it's been a real pleasure. You're you're, you're really interesting people to talk to. And this is, this has been a really fascinating conversation.Thanks soSimone Collins: much for joining. Definitely come back. We want to have more conversations like these and yeah, thanks again for your time.Raw Egg Nationalist: I absolutely will. Thank you. Woohoo! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

I have another fun chat with sex researcher and OnlyFans creator Ayla about the latest in her sex studies, including female sexual subtypes and common mistakes men make in bed. We also discuss the future of AI-generated personalized porn, using algorithms to create custom "wife porn", arbitrage opportunities in sexual dynamics, and more![00:00:00] Hello, Ayla. It is wonderful to have you here today. Sadly, Simone is not with us today because she is out petition collecting to run for office and she may just not be appearing in episodes for a while now, which is a little frustrating for me.But oh, by the way, one of the really fun episodes I'm going to do while she's not with us because I've been meaning to do this forever. As an episode, but I haven't gotten to it is I want to do a review. If you ever want to join me on this, this could be fun to do of all of the AI porn websites.Have you looked into any of these? Not recently. I did like a, like a year or two ago, but that's like a decade in AI timelines. Oh yeah. So, okay. Sorry. Before we get further on the intro, I just got to tell you about these cause they're really interesting. So they typically right now seem to fall into like one of three categories.One is a category of AI sites that like nudes, photos of women, like, So anyone who you're friends with, you can submit your photos to them. I was going to try it with photos of my wife. Like one morning I actually got interesting and I started submitting photos, my wife to see what [00:01:00] she would look like.So I'm going to keep it wholesome if I do. Another one, what they do is you choose specific profiles of women. But they're like a, a, like. A, a cat girl meets you at a stream and like this fantasy world or like you have an elf girl as like a slave or whatever, you know, right, like, and you can chat with these individuals and then you can ask for photos of these individuals in specific context.Which is really interesting. And then the final category is creating women. So you give a set of parameters that you would like a woman to be, and then the AI system would create a woman that fits that set of parameters, and you can now ask for photos of this woman and chat with her. Like, I want to get your thoughts on this, because I think you'd have interestingWould you like to know more?You can chat with her now.Like do they, when is integrated with the chatting? Yeah. So it's integrated with the chatting. So they'll integrate the personality and, and, and background and [00:02:00] jobs you give her with the chat feature. Damn. And then you also get porn of her. Does she like sexy talk? Yeah, but you have to pay for the individual picks.So you pay for credits. That makes sense. And then the credits get porn of her. What I was gonna do, if I did an episode on this and I was gonna create like artificial Simone's. And try to like, ask them for porn of them. And I, I actually got bored and tried this one morning. Cause I was like, I want to see pictures of my wife, but like, unfortunately the pictures that they gave me did not look enough like her and I got sad and left.Yeah. I don't think we're quite there yet, but I think we'll be there soon. Once we're there, it's going to be incredible. You can just like have custom wife porn all the time. Right. And when she's not up in the morning yet, I can go online because that's what I'm, what I was doing this. I was like, Oh, I want to talk with my wife, but she's not up yet.Can I create like a AI simulacrum for her to talk to? No. Well, what are different ways you think AI will be used in the, in the sex industry? [00:03:00] Other than, I don't know. I mean, I recently, I've been seeing photos of me around the internet with different faces. On me, which is upsetting and they're probably just using like face up for this right now, but it's probably going to become an AI thing pretty shortly where it's just like use alums body as a template.And I'm a little offended by it. But this is more short term I guess. Hold on, I want to ask you about offense questions. So there was something that Simone said she'd find offensive, but I was like, it's kind of flattering in a way. So there was a guy in Japan or Korea or something who his wife ended up divorcing him because he would hire prostitutes that looked like her when she was younger.And I was like, that's kind of flattering. What are your thoughts on that? Would you find that offensive? I mean, I'd probably find it painful. Like it's painful to not I guess it highlights that you're older now, right? Yeah. It's painful to like be losing out on sexual access because your physicality is not sufficiently attractive.That's like a quite painful thing. Hmm. Well, okay. So then you, you having other women with [00:04:00] their face on your body, what specifically is triggering a negative emotional reaction around this? I don't know. It's, I don't, normally. Normally, like the thing that you're worried about is like somebody taking your face and putting it on a nude so people can imagine you naked, but it's like your identity, but this is somehow the reverse.It's like, it's my body, but like I'm erased out of it in some way. And that feels like shockingly dehumanizing in a way I didn't expect. I just kind of didn't expect people to do this at all. Like what the hell is the motivation? Or I don't know. Cause like The motivation is that they want these other people naked, right?They want sexual access to someone who's not you. Sure. Yeah, well, I'm not even sure it was a real face. It wasn't even like a person. It was just like a generic face that wasn't mine. And so they could like, do it and like sort of steal it without it getting credit to me or something. Oh, and then they would upload them.Oh, that's Oh, that's like people reporting like, Hey, is this you? Like, this is your body. It's just like a generic. It wasn't a person. It was just [00:05:00] And I'm like, that is, that was me. Goddammit. You're like erasing my identity from a thing. It's almost like there's something that plagiarizes your work somehow.Yeah. Well, no, it is. Well, so, so I didn't actually finish the intro here because I got so sidetracked by interesting talk about pornography. So, Ayla is, you know, I was actually thinking today and I was trying to think, is there another, because I've written a book on sexuality, a best selling book on sexuality, The Pregnancy Guide to Sexuality.Check it out. It sells for like 99 cents. It's really good. I have a couple copies. Yeah, so, Ayla, as somebody who like is deeply interested in this field, I was thinking you are probably the best sexual researcher in human history. And then I was thinking, does Kinsey beat you? And I was like, not really.Kinsey is more like the Freud of human sexual research. He is important because he had the idea to do it, but his research was Terrible. So you're probably the single best researcher on a huge chunk of humanity, and you have such low [00:06:00] self esteem. I always seen your, your, your things. You're like, Oh, I can't really be that great.Or like, I remember one recently was like, are people really that bad at marketing themselves? And I'm like, Haley, you don't understand. top fraction of a fraction of a percent of intelligence and agency in the human population. People really are that bad. Which is fun to talk to you about sexuality, because most people don't talk about this subject.And what I had planned in this episode talking about was people need to check out this new substack she's done. It is data driven advice on how to be good in bed. And it is data driven not just from one of maybe the most sexually experienced people in human history but also one of the most Deep sexual researchers in human history, like you are not going to get this is not like woo s**t Like this is not like you're going to like I'm gonna you got a because sexual advice stuff Like if you go to like sexuality coaches, it's all woo like like from the stuff I've seen It's all like half of it is healing crystals and half [00:07:00] of it is sex stuff.She is like hard data Which is really cool but so I'd love to get to this data, but I'm actually having fun on this topic of the future of like online sex stuff. So do you have other thoughts on where things are going with this stuff? I'm even thinking like if I was going to blue sky, I can give you one of my thoughts on how I might use AI.I might take Like audio, so like somebody could take, like, suppose somebody wanted to engage with someone like my wife sexually, right? Like was in an online environment they could download like the hours and hours because we do an episode every day of our podcast of podcast episodes create a synthesized personality by separating out the woman's voice, put that into an AI system and have that respond to them.Now I'm thinking of this selfishly because I was actually like, okay, well, if I wanted to engage with a Good emulation of my wife, that's what I should do because then I could talk to her without distracting her from the important work she's [00:08:00] doing. But you could also then do this with like pictures of women or video feeds of women to create a fully, like really authentically synthesized woman.What, what are your thoughts? Well, and then what this is interesting and from an evolutionary perspective is it gives all men access to the highest quality woman possible from a masturbatory standpoint. Yeah, this is, I mean, like, it's more than masturbation, it's direct, like, this is part of why OnlyFans is so successful is because it gives you direct personal access to the woman as opposed to porn.Because people are always like, why am I paying for porn when I could just get porn free? And like, turns out there's a huge market for personalized s**t. So yeah, I think there's like probably, like, it's like a more personalized masturbation, which sounds great. From my end, I'm interested in it because, like, as an OnlyFans girl.I would love to outsource my content. I would love to just like press the button and have like the A list simulation, you know, like talk and live stream and do videos [00:09:00] for my guys. That sounds wonderful. Because like, I, it's nice. I enjoy, I do genuinely enjoy like being slutty and promiscuous on the internet.But like, honestly, I've taken so many naked photos of myself. I kind of want to shoot myself. Every time I take a nude. Now, it's just too much and it would be nice. I just want it to happen. People should know you created a contest around this like a year ago, like early, early AI, you are cutting edge. So you handled this huge data bank of images and you created a contest for somebody to create a really good ala generator.Can you talk about this? Yeah. We, we'd want to see if we could like. Use AI basically, can we make this happen? If it turns out, no, none of the people competing were really quite good enough. Because I think in order to work, it has to be relatively photorealistic. Because people just, it's not that exciting to view something that you can tell is AI.I think you literally did it the first moment somebody had the idea of doing something like this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, [00:10:00] like I've been in the AI world, the AI safety world for long, well before ChachiBT or AI started picking up in the last few years. So this has been like in the stream, like pretty advanced on it, but it's just not ready.No one would know this about you as an outsider. Just, you know, like Ayla is really, really high status within the AI safety world in the EA sphere, like among the type of people who are nerds about like Scott Alexander stuff, you're going to get maybe a third of them who are nerds about AILA stuff.And, and you go to a lot of the conferences and stuff like that because I think like your number one main squeeze is also in that space. Yeah. Yeah. One of my partners is president of Mary. So that helps. Yeah. We were both in the same. Circles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is interesting that you're in all these, these intellectual circles and some people who follow you as an outsider might not know that, that you're pretty high status within these intellectual circles.Um, well, so I was thinking if you could [00:11:00] automate yourself what could you offer that no one else is offering right now? I guess through a really high volume of images. Like, I'm wondering if there's arbitrage opportunities for you as a businesswoman here. So you have an unusually high number of images of yourself nude compared to other women.You could process these images, create a better ALA generator than other people. But you need to, it seems like a lot of the stuff is the AI stuff is good personality attachments. How would you handle that? Do you have a big feed of like a video feed or, or video backlogs or something like that you could use to try to create that, or would you try to simulate it?Like, like for personality wise, just feeler. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have tons of footage of interviews on podcasts and there's a bunch of like porn stuff. I, I would love to have more of me. to talk to people because I think [00:12:00] I'm like, relatively, I have some, some stuff to offer and I just don't have the time or inclination.I'm like a pretty solo person. I don't like hanging out with other people that much. I'm very private in the sense of the way I spend my time. And so it would be nice to like have somebody. Like an Ayla clone go out and do all that for me. I would love that. I love that idea too. That is, that is fun.Well, I mean, so then I know you've been thinking about maybe doing a podcast or something like that. Has that moved forwards? Are you more focused right now on the the, the sex guide blog? Well, I'm probably gonna do a good at sex podcast. So the plan is we bring a bunch of women together and talk about what makes sex good.And we have some variations on this. I don't want to give away too many details, but I'm pretty excited. I have an idea. Do you want me, I mean, are you connected with like, like documentary type teams and stuff like that? Like, have you thought about pitching this to like Netflix and stuff? Do you, I mean, do you have connections there?Cause I have a few. Well, the thing is, I'm not sure that Netflix would result in the level of revenue that I'm interested in. [00:13:00] Ah, oh yeah. Because you want to gate content access. Good idea. Okay. Yeah. Like right now it's, this is turning into my full time job, basically. It's like paying me more than OnlyFans does.So, well, education, your brain is now paying you more than I know. It was fulfilling. I love it. I mean, again, I don't, not degrading, like I'm like happy doing sex work and stuff, but like it's, I'm a little burned out and I would love to just do something that engages my brain and getting paid for it. So exciting.It's also less freaky because there's always this background insecurity that, like, my looks are going to run out and then I can't continue earning money through sex work. And, but this is like, oh, I could keep doing this for quite some time, even after I start looking really ugly. So it's like, It's not insecurity.Realistically, that's going to happen. I mean, we, we in our society aren't supposed to tell women that, but, like, objectively The, the, that's going to happen. And I think that being very shrewd in how you are backstopping your career. [00:14:00] Which is also really interesting. I think that some people don't think about was, was people like you, as they think that the, you know, like you don't recognize this and you aren't like doing career planning stuff and you absolutely are.I know it's like a weird sort of like outside, it's not a quite typical mind fallacy that people do, but I get this a lot when, when I talk about like running an orgy, people are like, Oh, she's going to f**k so many people watch out for the STD spread. And I'm like, do you, if you, do you not think about the liches, like if you think about if you were going to run an orgy.What would you do? You would probably require SCI. It's like a very basic thing that people like aren't they just sort of jump to the conclusion of what the final salacious result will be and not be like, wait, if you logically try to plan something like this, you would probably install fail safes or, or like good safety measures.And so it's very similar with like sex work. People are like, ah, she's going to get old and then be upset when nobody loves her. I'm like, did you not? Did you not think that maybe I have thought about this? You're right. Oh my God. I [00:15:00] am going to age.It's ridiculous. I don't understand. It reminds me of the end of Clueless when the lady who owns a cigarette company and smokes cigarettes every day and the girl goes, you know those things cause cancer? And she's like, Oh my God, no one ever told me. Like, yeah, it's the same. It's the same with us. I think a lot of people just don't put a lot of thought into the people that they're attacking was in online environments.Like, we'll get these attacks, like Oh, they want to replace the world with people who look like them and like, like their genetic stock. And like, I'm like, that's not something we've ever said. And they're like, but their genetic stock is flawed because they have glasses. And it's like, we don't want to replace people with people are like, Oh, they must be racist.And I'm like, we are like virulently not racist. And they're like, Oh, I don't know about that. You want people to have more kids, but you're not racist. I don't see how those two things could correlate. And it's like, What ? Yeah, it's, it's, I, I [00:16:00] love it. I love it. It's a shame. It's like something I had to update to that people are going to attack versions of you and not you.Like when I was going into being public, I was like, oh, okay, I'm ready for people to criticize who I am, but it turns out they don't. They just make up like a straw person about you and then criticize that, and you're like, wait, wait though. That's, it's a lot harder to handle, I think. Yeah, well, no, it is, and can you hear me okay, by the way?I got like a little thing over here. Yeah, somebody's mowing outside. Can you still hear me okay? No, I don't hear it at all. I made a mistake and I got a little alert on my, okay. Anyway, no, so it's really interesting. I don't know how much press you get. Like we get a decent amount of press. Yeah. Interesting things is I begin to get a feel of the different types of attack articles.Where one type of attack article and they are not correlated with the prestige of the newspaper. One type of attack article we get pretty frequently is it's clear that somebody read the title of another attack article. But didn't pay for the article. [00:17:00] The guardian does this really frequently where they will write an attack article, and it's clearly based on the title of another article, but not having paid for the article.That's.Is it like super glaring? Like they like cite facts that are from like before the paywall or something? Yeah, yeah. So they'll cite facts from before the paywall and then they'll say other things that are like something that someone would intuit. Like they'll say stuff like we do like explicitly racist things, which like, it's very obvious even if you had read the article that we spoke against that, but like they hadn't read the article.They're just like, oh, they're pronatalists. They must be racist or, or where this was really obvious to us is one of the articles on us insinuated that we were billionaires. And then a bunch, they said billionaires like Elon Musk, but it had a picture of us want people to have more kids. And so then when other people wrote articles on that, they would say we are billionaires.And so there's a huge [00:18:00] genre of article, Malcolm and Simone are billionaires out there right now. I mean, it's not like an awful reputation to have, but do you have any like positive, like attack articles on you out there? Like, like, no, usually the articles Aren't explicitly attack because I think you are more like susceptible to the woke, like, or like more of an easy target for the current cultural war because like you're associated with like, are you right wing?Are you being tried? Are you weird sex people? Nobody f*****g knows. And me, I'm just like a sex worker. I think this confuses people because like a lot of the mainstream media right now is sort of like at least lip service pro sex work. Yeah. So I think this is confused a lot of the ways that people talk about me.Normally, I'm in, I'm in media that I didn't volunteer to participate in because people are reporting on something outrageous that I've tweeted. And then that, that will get through the same repeat. Like there'll be like one big article that somebody writes like, Hey, look at this insane thing. She didn't shower very much.And then there'll be like a [00:19:00] whole string of other articles of people like copying over that information. I'm like. No, but I, I, well, I mean, of the attention economy, you grab a lot of it. I love that. Very, very good at that. It's not really that intentional to be clear. I was like, if Norman, like, I didn't know this was the thing guys, but okay.But by the way, I don't know if this has happened to you. One of the types of articles that now we watch out for a lot is somebody spotted us meeting publicly with a friend. And now like that entire friend group doesn't talk to us. And like now we cannot meet publicly with people anymore. Like I can't go publicly to restaurants with friends.I can't like, it's really weird. Like I didn't expect this to happen as quickly. Have you had that happen to you? Like somebody was like, Hey, no, I don't think I have the hate attention of mainstream publications in the same way you do for some reason. I'm more of like, This is, this is, this is Julia Black, a stalker.Who you know well, who I don't have. like that. There is a [00:20:00] little weird though, because like, I have no, I've hung out with somebody like at conferences, like publicly, I'm talking to people who Like maybe their reputations could be damaged by seeing associated with me, but you know, nothing happens. So I think maybe I just like, don't have a, like you are, you have a thing.I think you're like easily compressed into sort of a trope, which is like the pro natalist racist or something. Yeah. And I don't think I'm like quite as, like, the weird sex worker is like less of a powerful trope. So I think I'm less vulnerable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that outsiders look at this.They're like, oh, well, I think the trope that you get grouped into, which you don't fall into at all, is, and it's interesting, is actually almost as strong as us. So it's us. We're pronatalists, but we're really anti racism. And we try to signal that really loudly, but people don't always notice. You are a sex worker, but you are also, I consider a very high tier intellectual.And you try to signal that, but a lot of people probably like group you in was like, sex worker must be bimbo. I get those comments so much. It's like, why isn't anybody taking this w***e seriously? I get that [00:21:00] constantly. Or like, she's a sex worker opinion discarded. It's like a, almost like you could copy paste that comment.Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, how could you? You are. And for people who don't know we hang out with like a lot of the quote unquote, like dissident intellectual class. She is pretty much universally respected within that community. As an intellectual. Other people might not be out there saying that.So one thing I wanted to talk about before we end this, cause, cause this was actually what prompted me to reach out to you about this was a chart that you put together. Yeah. Yeah. Of how much women like it, how much men do it, of sexual fetishes. Yeah. Or let's, it's like a little bit more sex acts as opposed to fetishes, but there are some fetishes in there.Yeah. And to encourage people to get your thing, I am going to gray this out, so people won't know if their thing is on here or not. But you also put into this what was really interesting, is the standard deviation for like ratings, like is there less variance or more variances? Is this one of these things that people either hate [00:22:00] or love, or is it something that like most people agree on?There was one thing that really surprised me on here, a lot actually. And it was that almost no women like this. And it was, he doesn't care that much if you come or not. Which is interesting, because I've actually heard the opposite from women, or in a lot of sources that I knew, which is that women don't like when a guy is over focused on whether or not she came.Now, of course, also in the negative camp is like, thinking you came when you didn't come, asking you if you came if you didn't come. So it's basically like, he needs to make you come, but not be concerned about it. But it was really fascinating to me. I was wondering if you had thoughts on that. Like, is this something you expected when you were doing this, or?I was also pretty surprised by this result, but I guess it like makes sense if you think about it. Like I have another one in there that's like, he's disappointed if you don't come and like people are much more split on this. So it's like a weird thing where he has to care [00:23:00] and, but like he can't, you're right.He has to like thread the needle. My guess is that women don't want to feel pressured. Like, Oh s**t. Like I I don't want to feel like I need to come like, but they want him to care a little bit. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so I'm trying to think, what are some of the ones that are the most, she likes it but men almost never do it?One that's a real outlier here is he wants to roleplay non consent. Our, one of our other videos with you is on non consent parties. So this, if we speak of female male arbitrage, this is a huge area of arbitrage. Women like non consent more than men do it. Yeah, absolutely. This is, I mean, this is one of the most, the things that appears in my data, like regardless of the study I do or what I'm measuring, like women wanting to submit more than men want to dominate is just basically across the board.And again, like we were saying, like in, Recently that like sadism tends to be one of the subclasses in which this is pronounced, but it's a press all over. I think it should make [00:24:00] sense. Like men are like afraid of being dominant and like maybe men legitimately aren't dominant, which is a kind of weird topic in itself.But yeah, absolutely. Women way more into that weird topic. Maybe men aren't dominant. What have you seen in this area? Well, like what are your thoughts? Well, I mean, so this is one of the very, very early things that got me into sex research. I was actually listening to Jeffrey Miller give a talk in Thousand Mutual Friend, by the way, I really, I, we haven't had him on the podcast.I'm gonna make a note. . Oh yeah, you, he's great. But this is, I met him back in 2018 when he was, I was living in New York and he was there and he was like giving a little talk to. It's the rationalist, I think, and I remember being like, well, he's, I asked him, you know, why are more men dominant than women are submissive?And he like, he didn't really know, which makes sense because nobody f*****g knows. It turns out this has been like one of the biggest focuses in my research since then. And like, there's various theories, but, I don't have a good sense of why. Like one, it's like maybe it's this testosterone thing and testosterone levels are dropping.So everybody's getting more submissive. [00:25:00] Maybe. Maybe it's like the gay Listen, I can, I can give you an answer. I know the answer. Yeah? No. I know, I actually do know the answer. I can give you the answer. Okay, okay. Okay, look at the genetic Data from the agricultural transition period in human history. So this is like right when we were transitioning to an agricultural society in the early agricultural period 14 women would have children for every one man that would have children.So you didn't need this to appear at the same rate across men for some men, it was about just not dying and having one or two kids, whereas chieftains women would cook. Conglomerate toward them. So you don't need. Men and women to perfectly match men need to either be super dominant when they're in the chieftain or king role or be submissive and nightly to the, to the extent that they are able to follow a chieftain or king which is a different psychological subset.Yeah, I think that this is a theory. I think this is related to my, my gay uncle theory where some men sort [00:26:00] of self selected out because of like fewer men reproduce than women. Although I hadn't tied it specifically to the concept of like the chieftain thing. But I'm not totally convinced about this though.Tell me what you think is bad about this theory. I mean, 14 women were breeding for every man. That's 14 women to one man. That's what was happening on average. That means that many men had 30 wives. Right. But like. Like, could we not say something like, Oh, say the dominant man reproduces at like a much higher rate the dominant genes get spread or, but like, maybe there's some, some of the men, if his genes like.Or deliberately are not competing, like, why waste resources on them at all? Like, they have to have some sort of comparative advantage. And it seems weird to not, like, be spending all of the genes on the thing that has the max advantage. Like, like, things tend to be just really competitive in that way. And it's similar to, like, why, like, I think the gay uncle theo Like, literally, the gay uncle theory part is bad.Because, like, gay Like, why would you spend genes on having a gay man? Like, the selfish gene theory. Like, [00:27:00] those genes There's no such good of the group kind of thing. I don't know. I'm not really expressing myself super clearly here. I'm sorry, I'm going to take the gay uncle theory, split it out here. First of all, what you said was really smart.I like it and I'm probably wrong. You convinced me I'm probably wrong there. Okay. I don't know. I'm just saying you're not necessarily right. I'm saying, I don't know. It's not enough information. Gay uncle theory is the theory that gay men have either they invest in childcare for their siblings in a way that increases the number of kids they can have, or they have siblings of gay men who have kids particularly women, have female offspring that are more feminine.Then they otherwise would be the two iterations of the gay uncle theory. The problem is, is you would just need to have so many extra kids to offset the kids. The gay uncle is having, it doesn't make sense. Also it doesn't make sense because you see similar rates of gay populations in animal species where you have no parental care, mammal species specifically.These are my two arguments. Thank you. That's [00:28:00] thank you for your, I, this is, I didn't. actually know that. And it's, I like that you're strengthening my argument though. Yeah. Well, I mean, so people don't often consider if, if I would have two kids, like, okay, suppose I'm supposed to have four kids and my gay uncle's supposed to have four kids.But he decides to have no kids, and we still need to be, like, genetically successful as a family, then I need to double the number of kids I'm having. Like, that's really hard. If you look at my family historically, I have my family's birth records. If I go great grandfather and back, for, like, every person for, like, four generations, we had 12 kids each.A gay uncle was not gonna double the 12 kids. Yeah, that's, that's a good point. Yeah. So, I mean, like there might be like maybe roundaboutly something to the gay uncle theory, but I find it kind of implausible. And for that reason, I'm like less swayed by thoughts that like maybe men's like are self selecting out of the gene pool a little bit by being submissive.I'm like, why would that be beneficial at all? [00:29:00] My guess is it's more likely some sort of like weird anomaly or like a change in. In testosterone levels or something, but I don't know. Very interesting. Okay, I want to see if any other, other things here strike me as interesting. Oh, here's one. So, so the, he wants to roleplay Nugget, like that was a controversial one, right?One that women really like that not many men ask for is you edge him and he edges you. Yeah, I was really surprised by that one. Aging in women is popular, but not in men. Yeah, I don't know what that I don't even know. I'm not really into edging personally, so it's like hard for me to develop theories for that.I've never met someone who told me they were into edging, but apparently men don't ask this enough, so Yeah. To be fair, in this survey, the I actually didn't use identical phrasings for both of the edgings, so it's possible that there's some artifact making, like, the gender thing different, but the [00:30:00] absolute location of them are correct.But yeah, I don't know. Here's one that almost all women are into, or a lot of women are into, but like guys don't realize women are into, he's experimental, suggesting unusual things, or he asks you to try an unusual but inoffensive fetish. So knowing your inoffensive fetishes as a guy is actually pretty safe with women.Even if there's one that was like, it even showed, even if you're not interested in it. I can't remember what that was. Like, that was the word you used. I think that might be the unusual but inoffensive fetish one, I think. Okay, I can't remember. Another one that's actually pretty common for, that I think would surprise a lot of people is He's aroused by your pain.Yeah, the sadism. Yeah. Yeah, that's the sadism gap. Men just don't like hurting women that much, which is so funny because like a lot of like the anti porn feminist stuff is like, oh, porn is corrupting [00:31:00] men to make them like more brutal and rough with women. And I'm like, porn is accurately updating men.Excuse me. It's so funny you say this. So, we wanted to do an episode and this is what actually encouraged one of the things that encouraged us to reach out to you is I wanted to do a The data versus Mary Harrington. I like Mary Harrington. I've met her. We've done interviews with her. She's a nice person, but she will go out and say things like men like choking women because they watch porn and this means they hate women or like they look down on women.I'm like, no women like being choked and not enough damn men are choking them. That's what the data says. Yep, absolutely. This is like one of the most robust findings around sex research, is that women desperately want men to do this more. Although to be clear, this is like pretty bimodal for women. So like, this is like the hurt me, please me spectrums that we have been talking about.Like, like, this might be why we're seeing such like a pushback publicly. It's because like women either really like being choked [00:32:00] and hurt or they f*****g hate it. And so you probably have women who f*****g hate it, who are like, What the hell? Porn is teaching men to do things to me that I don't want them to do, and they sort of typical mind assume all of the other women are the same.Whereas like if things were like more, you know, normal distribution, maybe that those are less polarizing for the discourse. Yeah, no, I think that's really powerful. And I think that that's where we need to move. Like if you're having the honest discourse, which is what we try to do on this podcast, the truth is, is that this is a bimodal thing you need to establish before you sleep with someone, whether or not this is something that they're interested in no.that many more women who are interested in this have their partners actually doing it with them. But there is a portion of women who sleep with men who are trained to do this by the many women they're sleeping with because on average, like half of women are into this. And then they do it with this one woman who like hates it.Like it's a very bimodal and they're like, Oh my God, how could you have done that to me? Do you hate me? Do you hate women? Are you a monster? Did you learn this from porn? And it's like, no, I learned it from my ex. She told me she liked it. I don't know.[00:33:00]Yep, absolutely. Although I don't, I don't know, I mean, the data might say it's bimodal, my experience is it's like 80 percent of women. Well, it might be some selection effect. So like, I have two boyfriends right now. One of the boyfriends is like, Hmm, it sure seems like almost every woman I have sex with wants me to hurt her.That's interesting. I have my other boyfriend. It's like, I just have never really come across women who want rough sex. And I'm just like, Whoa, tell me, I don't need to know who they are. I want to know the personality profile. How are they attracting these two different categories? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, so they both have extremely high body count.So it's not like there's something that they're putting out that's attracting different women. So I'm saying, I think you might be putting out the, like, somehow, I don't know. But like, it's interesting because both of them are quite traditionally male and like dominant feeling. They're both like, I'm a man who will ravish you, but in different ways.I think one of them's a lot [00:34:00] sweeter. Oh, is the one who attracts the women who don't want that sweeter? No. Oh, okay. So here's the, here's the hypothesis. Oh, sorry. I don't want yes. Sorry. I was confused by your The one who, we don't want to attract women who want to be hurt. Sweet guy attracts vanilla girls.But to be fair, he's still quite, I, sweet feels like it's not really summing it up. He's much more emotive. He's like very emotional, like can sink into his body, embodied, like very, like, Is this the one I met? Cause he seemed very sweet to me. Which one did you, I thought, did you not meet both of them? Oh, I thought I, I don't know.I, I, I, the number one main squeeze guy who I've referenced before. Oh yeah, that was the, he's definitely more of that. He attracts women who are more like so brutally submissive. No, we're not naming anyone. We're not. Okay. Okay. No. Okay. So being named, to be clear, I really want this guy right now or something and like [00:35:00] talking about your relationship.It's fine. I like it. Yeah, it's, it's been going well, he, he likes it when I talk about him because he was the one that wrote me like the, you're not that pretty card. I don't know if you saw this at all. I love that post. Continue. But that was in private Kayla room, right? In, I posted this on Twitter and I found people started writing.This is one of the things that people wrote articles about. Sorry, I never know what's from the private chat and what's not. Yeah, it's okay. Okay, tell, talk about this. This is a good one. Yeah. So he wrote, he told me I wasn't that pretty. It was in context. It made more sense because I was like, I think everybody's gaslighting me about how hot I am.They're saying I'm pretty. I don't think I'm that pretty. And he was like, yeah, you're not that pretty. I was like, my poor heart. Anyway, he wrote me a card saying, I'm sorry, because it was very sweet moment that he ruined by saying that. I'm glad he did anyway. And then I posted on Twitter and went viral.And then at the end of the viral tweet, I was like. If anybody wants to apply to have sex with him, here's a, here's a form you can fill out. Did you talk about [00:36:00] how good he was in bed? He very, he, this is, he can call me not that pretty all day. Okay. His dick is fire. So, which is interesting. So the, the former actually got quite a lot of responses.I think he had 150 women fill it out and he has had sex with a lot of them at this point. Which is interesting that something like that attracts so many women. Like my guess is that. they were seeing him sort of neg me in a sense and like I'm like relatively like in this context high status right because I'm like have a lot of followers or whatever and so they were perceiving him like oh if I can have sex with this guy this sort of means that I'm special about having sex with him you have had sex with lots of people when I was younger I had a high body count but one of the primary mechanisms that serves girls for me was other girls opinions of sleeping with me.One girl would tell all her friends, one you can sleep with him, he's safe, and he's like, fun in these ways. And I think that guys underestimate it. It's so funny, all these red [00:37:00] pillers are out there, like, trying to be like, And it's not, like, I identify as a red piller to some extent. I think they see some things that are true, but, like, they try to be, like, tough and, like, and, and cruel towards women in a way sometimes, and it's, like, the easiest way to get women to have sex with you is to have another woman who they respect saying, you should go and have sex with this guy.Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is the Girl Whisper Network. This is the reason I originally had sex with this guy, actually, is because one of my friends, who he used to date, was like, I think you might really enjoy sex with him. And I was like, take your This is a good voucher. I'll go try it. Sure not to be right. Very Catherine Green of you.Very what? Well, Katherine the Great used to have a person I don't know if this is myth, but it's at least heavily canonized myth that Katherine the Great used to have a woman who was supposed to sleep with all of her potential partners before her to see if they were worth her time. That's so smart.Wait, I should get one of these! Wait, no, I think I did. Like, cause, cause his [00:38:00] partner, he has another girlfriend who I like. Quite a lot. And she's so super slutty, so I can just have, and we have very similar sex tastes, just ask her. I love this. You need an AILA vetting system. He needs a vetting system now.Well, I mean, with 150 potential. applicants here. This is what you get for sexually pleasing someone like Ayla. You get it published on Twitter and then a huge pool of applicants coming to you. But hold on, actually, I want to, I, I think when you talk about the sweet guy versus the not sweet guy contrarianism, I actually think contrarianism might be the difference.Is this, is the guy who is attracting the vanilla girls, not a contrarian? Well, no, it's. It's, well, depends what you mean by contrarian. I would say Does he like, like, arguing and disagreeing with the mainstream perspective? No, not, not in that way, I think. Oh, okay. But he's very good at holding his ground and not like, giving in to what [00:39:00] women sort of want.Like, he passed the s**t test with flying colors kind of thing. Oh, so this is the first thing with me? Speaking of s**t tests, because people, okay, first I'll define a s**t test for people who don't know what that are. It says, theory was in the red pill community that women will test you for your dominance.To be like, hey, you, you know, whatever, right? When I was dating around, like, and sleeping around, I never got s**t tests. I've gotten like maybe two s**t tests in my entire life. I bet you got s**t tests. I bet you got s**t tested though. You think I'm just too, I'm too blind to notice that they were s**t testing me.I was just like, because like the way that red pillars talk about s**t tests are usually extremely obvious. Like the girl will like insult you and see if you felt her or she'll like, ask you to hold her purse is the classic example. But I think the vast majority of s**t tests are significantly subtler.And they're more like, like asking you a question to see if you try to like, say a response that feels like you're trying to make her happy, like stuff like that. Oh, For reference, by the way, if a [00:40:00] woman ever asked me to hold her purse, I wouldn't take that as a s**t test. I would hold her purse. Like, women need help sometimes.It's only when you s**t test in, like, trad culture or something. It's not a s**t test in normal culture. They're just, like, inconsiderate and they think they're being s**t tested. But I love what you're saying. You're probably right there. Is they would ask me stuff, or maybe the reason they didn't s**t test me is it was obvious I didn't care what they, like, mainstream society thought or what their opinion was.And I think what the test might be deployed for is men who are trying to get a woman to sleep with them by pretending to mirror their belief system. Yeah, very much. I think this is very close to the sex, did you read the sex is a status game post that I wrote? I liked it. Okay. Tell me, tell me more about the reference here.I wrote a post, so this is, it is sort of like a, I think should test our subcategory. It's one of the tabs I have open on my screen right now, but continue. Yeah. It's, it's not a huge deal, but it's just describing like the ways that we do status games in interactions and how this is like very prevalent.And it's a lot of people have like a really negative [00:41:00] connotation with the concept of status, but it doesn't have to be. Often it's very like game like and often it's very like playful. Like when you're flirting with somebody, this Often involves a lot of status play. And so like I break down videos of like analyzing how like the status play is happening and like romantic interactions or whatever.But I think that s**t tests are like one subcategory of this. Like you want to, you're testing the guy to see if he can like, not. Be broken underneath your will or something. That's like a strong way of putting it, but it's much more subtler. It's something like, is this guy, am I seeing who this guy is, or am I seeing like a version of this guy who's like trying to warp himself into something to get into my pants?So, guys might not understand how important this is for women. Like, this is not an idle thing. So when I've been giving women, like, dating and sex advice and stuff like that, they're like, how do I tell if a guy's just telling me what I want to hear or if he is actually being honest to who he is because I'm looking for Either a long term partner or something like that, right?And a lot of guys learn, they can just tell them what they want to hear to get the [00:42:00] woman to sleep with them. There is a reason for women to be vetting for this, but I think that there's a certain type of guy. I might be an example of this. Who's just so obviously not telling people what they want to hear that they don't need to test it that much.Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's probably what's going on. They're like, oh, this guy doesn't give a s**t when I think about him. Okay. . Yeah, he, whatever he feels like. Anyway, I, I love this. This is fun. I, I, I, I hate, so I love that I have a podcast now that I have a reason to have you on to talk with me, because I'm the type of person who like doesn't reach out to talk with my friends unless there's some immediate utility to me.Yeah, same. I'm like, okay, what's the advantage of talking to this individual right now? Which is so horrible. I'm assuming you're passing that way, I guess. But I, I consider you a good friend. And so I'm glad that I have this excuse to chat with you in a way that potentially advances both of our interests.And to advance her interests, you need to go. And if you want to learn how to be good in bed for your long term partner, or if you're like, oh, I'm not sure if this weird thing [00:43:00] I'm into is actually normal to be into. Learn if you're actually a friend. Freaky, pathetic weirdo, or if you're, if you're not, but you've got to get behind the paywall.I'm not giving you the paywall stuff. I actually thought like after I read your article, I was like, this would be a good solo episode and I can put it on the screen. And I'm like, I'm not going to do that. We got to get you subscribed. I decided to try to earn money because I've been doing free research, publishing and quite a lot of work for years.I'm like, you know what, maybe I should try to get a little bit of pay. So I'm pay well on some of it now. Well, you, you, what's, what was the point of sleeping with all these people? If you didn't, if you weren't doing it to collect data so that now you can turn around and use it on the public and be like, Hey, do you want somebody who objectively has more data on sleeping with people than Maybe all but a hundred thousand people in human history.It's like her and Genghis Khan here, people. You're not going to get better advice. Oh, thanks. [00:44:00] It's a great interview. No, it's, it's true. I think it's like objectively, you probably know more about sex and is one of the reasons why your research is good. You also, if you watch the first interview I did with her in this series, I did one before, before doing this one.You're so obviously like autistic y you're so stilted when like you start conversations and stuff like that. Like you're just interested in the data and you're like, yes, that data is true. That is what I found in my study. It was interesting.What I'm saying is people think they think, oh, this woman's a quote unquote sex worker or whatever. That means that she must be like a charismatic type woman. And, and you are not a charismatic type woman. You are. I can't occasionally be good at role-playing it. I feel like I've learned to like step into like the hot woman charisma.Oh. Talk about this. How do you role play a charismatic, feminine woman? Like what are you embodying when you do that? I have this video on YouTube, which is like a guide to [00:45:00] being seductive or something. Where I go through all of like the concrete small shifts to my body language that I make in order to like become a woman that men find attractive.But I just do cam girl. I was saying, check out this video. That's what I'm telling the audience. Because with cam grilling, it's like a, you see who live stream people watching and you tip to you. And so you get like money based on the, how much you can, how hot you can be and generate their money. And so I did this over time and you get very rapid feedback.Like people are, they're giving you money that are not. And like your average money earning like affects your rankings. So you have like really clear, like. Feedback about like the kinds of things that you're doing that lead to people giving you more money and over time I did this for like five or six years over time I figured out that like Oh different body language in different ways.I use my voice generates more tips And so this is like brute force like iteration led to being able to be like a hot woman It's not just brute force iteration. I've watched interviews with you where you're like, I looked up the top [00:46:00] videos in the camming site and stuff like that. I tried to develop patterns in the statistics of these videos.I tried to emulate them. Yeah, I had like instructions on the wall behind me for like different body language things that I would look and like, remember to keep doing. Yeah, you guys are not that aroused by like autist girl. Guys are aroused by like horny girl. And so you have to like signal sexual arousal and, and availability and vulnerability pretty, pretty hard.What is the number one advice you'd give to a girl who was on a date who didn't know how to signal this? I mean, if she's like me, I know what advice to give, but like people are not sexy in very different ways. Audience is. Disproportionately, severely autistic.I promise you. When you said that, it's like you don't understand how autistic they are. You do not understand. These people are little Simones. Imagine you're giving advice to, I don't know if she's like you, but she has an aspect of [00:47:00] you in that regard. Yeah, this is true. I don't know, maybe like talk slower and use simpler language.Don't use big words and speak slow. Literally talk to a man like they're little dumb animals. They will think that you are a little dumb animal and that is what they want to believe. You need to simplify your language. You need to, I love it. I love it. I actually wonder if that's something I could, I couldn't do that if I was told to do that.I'd never be able to. Oh gosh. There was something else I wanted to ask you that I was really excited about. In regards to that, I forget a really fun one might be to do like a interview version of like a, how do you get escorts thing? I love, she did a full thing on how to actually like what the process of hiring an escort and vetting an escort is like, and I would never do this, but it was fascinating to read.And I suspect being cross culturally because [00:48:00] when I was in Korea, the process of hiring an escort was different. Yeah. Yeah, my, Oh, was it really? I don't know. I just know that businessmen like they would ask me like other VCs and stuff like that. They'd be like, do you want to go hang out with an escort tonight?Like in the U S this doesn't happen as much, but in Korea, this is pretty normal. I was like, I'm married. And they're like, what does that have to do with anything? . Yeah, we're getting an escort. We're not marrying her. . Yeah. I think the cultural attitude towards escorts was so different over there.Have you, have you done anything in Japan or Korea or anything like that? No. That might be an interesting marketstudying. Yeah. I don't, I have no idea where to start there, but we could try. We have to relearn the whole game, I think. No, no, no, I wouldn't reload the whole game. This is what I do. Okay, so I'm just business advice here. Go to Japan and Korea. Find out who the [00:49:00] number one escort or sexual influencer is in both of those cultures.Whoever the individual is, they will almost certainly know who you are or be likely to reply to you. Do cross Promotion with them, i. e. Have them write something for your blog about their culture, sexual practices, and then do an episode with them on their podcast or anything like that. And you will both draw an audience that neither of you has full access to right now.That's actually a pretty good idea. Here's, here's another one I want to hear your thoughts on. I remembered what I wanted to hear. So Simone and I did an episode on that whole, you know, yum, yum, yum trend and stuff like that. Like idol sexualization. You know the one I'm talking about, right? What do you think is going on there?And what are your thoughts on that? As somebody who, like, studies what people like. Well, I know that I kept watching it. I don't know if it had the same impact on you. But, like, everybody's talking about it. It kept being on my timeline. And I noticed that every time a video came on my [00:50:00] timeline, I just wanted to watch it again.And I'm like, there must be something. There's something in it that's, like, hitting my brain that, like, must be also hitting other people's brains. It was difficult for me to tell. So, why not even detect it? Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily sexual. Although you just add a sex drive on top of it and it might amplify it.Like a lot of sexual things are kind of like that for people who want that. We need a meme of when Simone was pretending to do it. She did a very good job. Yeah. I'd love to do that. She's like, kind of reminds me of like, characters, Pixar characters, you take like the most expressive features and you blow it up.And sometimes on TikTok, people like replicate, you know, Pixar animation style, where they're like, they'll like do a thing and, you know, talk as though they're an animated character and everything is like more exaggerated and like more caricature y. And this is very much sort of what she was doing. Like, I think if I remember correctly, she had like makeup that emphasized like more [00:51:00] neotenous or whatever, and then had the very caricature, like animated kind of expressions.I mean, these words also remind me of something that We were talking about on this, which is that people think that these people are like idiots who are doing this or something like that. These women, like one of the main ones who did this, there were two main ones has a, a kid she's trying to provide for the kid.This is all about like long term career stuff. Like if you watch her videos, like analyzing how she caught this wave, how she exploited this wave, it's all very much career focused. And that is not something to grade her for, you know, she's doing this to support a kid and give them a good life. Oh, yeah, there's no, like, yeah, she, when people do this, they look dumb, which is maybe why people think they are dumb.But like in order to be on that sort of wave early, you have to have some level of like intelligence and boldness. It's like really hard to be on the front row of a viral thing and like not be that smart. Yeah. She's probably like above average IQ. Yeah, well, I don't want to hold you forever. I know [00:52:00] this was the end of this.I'm just having fun talking to you now at this point. I'm just like, oh, I'm chatting with Ayla. Oh, oh, here's something I could do on the fetish, the, the fetish one is things that guys do. Okay, here's something that I guess I shouldn't be that surprised about because everybody tells you this.Something that guys do a lot that women are not actually interested in is he focuses primarily on your vagina as opposed to your clitoris. Yeah, and this one is interesting because in one of my updated Surveys where this one is just about what men do, but then I had another survey where men predict what women like and which is separate from what they're actually doing and men over predicted women's preference for focus on clitoris.So this is not because men are not aware that women do not like clitoris stimulation, they just don't want to as much as women want it. I'm going to be honest. It's too much effort. I don't, I don't really care. No, if you're a guy who's getting a lot of, a lot of them just don't, [00:53:00] the other one I was surprised about that both men did a lot and women liked a lot, because I didn't think either one of these things would be the case is doggy style.Yeah. Doggy style is an incredibly difficult position to make good in my like experience. Really like for you or for her, for both? It might be because I'm a tall guy. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I've definitely seen girls doggie pie with a scarf on before. You can't really do that much in terms of grabbing or touching other erogenous zones because, you know, you're in a position where to do that you have to put additional weight on her, which I would prefer not to do.And then the woman's in a position where you, you need to align perfectly. Not all women of all height and all men of all height can doggie style. You need to have a very Tight matchup for that to work. For it to be one of the most aligned things that guys do a lot and women like a [00:54:00] lot was very surprising to me.Yeah, maybe it's less surprising to me, but maybe it's because I like it more than you like it. Yeah, yeah, maybe these logistical problems aren't a problem for you and you're not like, Oh, yes, doggy style is always a logistical nightmare. Well, I mean, it can be. It's definitely like one of the less comfortable, but there's something Like, it hits like an unusual Like, it's like a different kind of feeling, which is really nice.And I think it's a little bit more dehumanizing, which is good. And also from the man's perspective, you can like more clearly see a penis entering. So if you were visually stimulated by watching penis, But what you're watching and entering is undifferentiated from a man often. I'm seeing a woman from the back.I'm not seeing any of the sexually dimorphic characteristics. I'm not seeing breasts. I'm not seeing a face. Women don't have as much of that as most women think they do. [00:55:00] Holy s**t. Bird. Oh gosh, am I?Women need to get over themselves. Okay. Here's a fun thing that you might find fun, which has changed about Simone recently. So Simone recently has changed to long hair. She's growing out her hair again to have like medium lengths, long hair. And something that I've noticed is that at different stages of a woman's life, there's different optimal like look categories.Like when Simone was in this younger category, I really preferred the short hair. Which to me was like the Vulcan look. I always loved that look. Or recently we were watching Hackers was like early Angelina Jolie. I know why, like, I like this short hair look, right? But it doesn't work for middle aged women.And so she needs to change the way she's presenting to be sort of maximally, and it's not just me, it's also for society as well. Like society does not respect short hair, middle aged women. Short hair is for young women. [00:56:00] Like, what are your thoughts on other things where, like, you can change your optimization as you age?I mean, like, in general, long hair is more feminine overall. In general, men tend to prefer long hair. It's more associated with youth. So, but it's like, like, there's points you can spend. Like, there's memes about how, like, you know you're pretty if you can pull off a bald look. And if you're not pretty, you can't afford to cut your hair.And so Simone's like quite pretty and so it seems like she's sort of like has a lot of pretty points to spend before it actually starts impacting people's attraction to her which makes sense that she can pull off short hair. But in general, you want to maximize this like these signs of youth as much as possible once you hit your 30s.Yeah. Well, I mean, you could optimize for different things. Like when you're older and you're still trying to optimize signs of youth, it's pretty bad. Like it doesn't, it doesn't. This is actually interesting and I'd love to see. I, I suspect that this is the path you're going to go as a sex icon, which is a lot of sex icons sort of refuse to give up the ephemera of youth.You know, this [00:57:00] is Madonna moves. Madonna. Who am I thinking of? Yeah. Madonna or Marilyn. No, Madonna. Yeah. She keeps trying to look young. Like she tries to capture this young look. Where I actually think that as you're aging, you could probably get a wider audience by appealing to a new kink around your new age category.Probably, but my guess is people still like hot, older women. If you're an older woman, you probably want one that looks like a young, like a aged healthfully, healthfully, older woman. And a lot of people have plastic surgery. You don't notice like a lot of like older celebrities that look short of their age.Maybe it just looks like they've aged super well and are still kind of pretty. They've probably had a ton of plastic surgery. So yeah, I plan on. Surgery it up real hard, but you can only, Oh yeah, I've already surgeried myself. I am a transhumanist. Like I would like to modify my body as much as possible.Well, I'll tell you what I can't tell. You look fantastic. I love hearing about people who have surgeried [00:58:00] themselves generally. I'm not a fan of it. Simone is, continue. Well, it's, it's, I think it's like suffers from sort of visibility bias like kind of like trans people. Like you notice if somebody's trans, if they're not passing well, and if they pass, you don't even notice that they're trans.So in your mind, all the trans people you've seen are bad at passing. I think the same is with plastic surgery. All the plastic surgery you've seen is by definition bad plastic surgery, but tons of people get little tweaks all the time. You never know. I'm going to counter here. I think that you're right about plastic surgery with trans people.I, I heard something on trans people recently that really stuck with me. Which is that most trans people don't pass like the, the, the, the, the passing trans person is actually pretty rare. And that because of that trans people sort of rely on society. To go along with this sort of delusion, not, not this delusion, but like to agree with them.And this is why it's so important for the trans movement to push so hard on this issue. Because. Most trans people don't pass [00:59:00] and they rely on everyone pretending that they do. Yeah. I agree with this, which I think is actually quite cruel for trans people. Like you're doing like this weird psychological thing where like, yes, you're a woman and you, but like other people aren't going to treat you like a woman.But like, we're saying that that's not what a woman is. And then I think it's like, just creates a lot of confusion and dysphoria for them, which is terrible. But I still, I did update in this direction after like occasionally meeting people that I thought were cis that turned out to be translator. And.And I agree that, like, maybe this is rarer than, than not passing or something. But after having that experience, I realized that, oh, like my felt sense of like the passingness of trans people is like actually has been off because I was failing to take into consideration these people that I knew personally that turned out to actually be trans.And that, that did shift the way that I viewed trans people, like the passingness. Oh, that's really fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. And that would, that would make a lot of sense. Like NikkieTutorials. the YouTuber? No, I don't. I'll look this up. NikkieTutorials is somebody, like, I was aware of [01:00:00] vaguely for many years.She's this, like, this woman who does makeup tutorials. She's, to me, she's just been like a lady. Clearly a lady. She's just a woman. And then at one point she had a coming out where she admitted that she was trans. And I was like, holy! Holy f**k. I think that was actually probably one of the best things that happened to a trans woman.I would have thought she was trans because she was Yeah, when I catch trans women who otherwise pass it's because they're attractive, but she's not attractive enough for me to question it. I don't know if I'm doing this consultingly, but yeah. Yeah, sure. She sounds like a woman. Like, I don't know. This is, this is like when I'm like, if you're, if you're a transphobe and you're like, oh, but like you call her a man, I feel like that's just, there's something weird going on.Like she's clearly not. Well, yeah, the Simone has the horrifying opinion. I don't know if you've seen, we have the, what is a woman episode and Simone's like, yeah, I consider someone a woman if they pass. And that is like the most offensive thing you can say, but I genuinely think that's the way most people feel.[01:01:00] Yeah. That was basically what I argued in my article. Like what also called what, what a woman is where I'm like, like, I think by definition, the way that we've practically used. The concept of a trans, of a woman is somebody who looks like a woman, which I, so I think, I think I'm very pro trans and I think we need to develop better technology to help people pass.Because like, if I were trans, I would want to like go all the way to the opposite side and be convincing. And that would be the thing that feels best for me. And I think everybody should have access to that. Well, I mean, I think that we should have technology that doesn't mean that they need to fully transition.I think that we should have technology that allows them to fill any body type they want. And I think a lot of trans people who I know don't actually want to fully transition. They want to be FUDA. They want to be, you know, many other things, but like, they, they, they, the, the problem is, is right now there's like this ghoulish plastic surgery monster that isn't necessarily particularly different from an old woman who's trying to be a young woman.It's not unique to transness, it's just a [01:02:00] product of the technology that we have right now. But as we move forward, Yeah, it is tragic. It is tragic. I agree. And especially when you attribute that much trauma to being like misgendered and stuff like that, I can't imagine how much pain they experience every day.No, of course, I'm really hoping AI gives us like updates in tech that allows us to modify bodies in a way that like helps dysphoria. I think that'd be lovely. Well, I think what we're actually going to see before that is people are Not interacting in person as much anymore. And I think that this will enable non in person interactions at a higher level within this community, where they can better model themselves as their types of things within online environments, because I think that comes before better.Transition technology. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. That would be awesome. But yeah. Oh, actually, here's a question for you. How could you arbitrage, well, I guess [01:03:00] the sheer content you have of you. Yeah. You could use that to arbitrage your online environments.Yeah. That would be cool. I mean, it probably doesn't, it probably wouldn't be that hard for somebody else to compete. Like you just have to generate that. It doesn't take that long, I think, to generate as much information to make good models, but yeah. Well, I've had a blast talking to you. I'm sorry, I'm just looking for excuses to keep talking to you, cause it's, I don't, I don't bother.And you guys remember when we first met and I was like, ah, person that I like. Oh yeah, no, so we met the first time and we ended up talking till like 3am that day. And I was just like, oh my god, I, I love this person so much. And, and I don't do that. I do not stay up late. People don't know this about me.Yeah, I can be. with a billionaire and I will take naps in between talking sessions. Because it kills me, you know, I, I cannot stay up. You were just like so compelling to me. Yeah, you too. [01:04:00] It was like meeting a kid. It's like, Oh my God, somebody from, I don't know what tribe we're, we're both from, but it was like, felt like meeting somebody from your hometown or something.It was really nice. No, no, I did. You know, it was like a sister or something. As I said, like, I don't, I don't, I don't identify with, I identify with my brother. You need to meet my brother. You'd like my need to come out of here sometime. When you start having kids we'll bring you out. We gotta, I have, I have pushed hard for who I think would be a good father in a few unsubtle suggestions who, who seems to have a level of dedication to you and cares about you.But this is just me as an outsider saying this is a physically fit, intellectually sharp person who seems to care about you. Yeah, well, we will see. I am going through an egg freezing process soon, so there will be Oh, please do. The world I need my kids to have partners. You know we're doing arranged marriages for our kids, right?I hope they like [01:05:00] that. No, no, we don't they don't have to do the arranged marriage. The way it works, we give them an option and we say, if you don't take this option, we're not doing it again. And a lot of people are like, Oh, that's horrifying. Like, how could you do that? Like, you know, and when we talked to like young people about this and they're like, I love this idea.Like if only somebody was just like, okay, here's your one choice. Take it or leave it. Your parents thought it was a good option. They know their parents. If you have kids, I'm definitely putting you in the pool. I'll be sending you a letter. If you have kids around my kids age to marry and they're like competent, like non like spaz out.We'll be like, okay, we have vetted you and your partner. You both seem intellectually competent healthy individuals. Well, this is the thing. You're like, why do you want to marry somebody like was in your family? Well, like who do you see as a sister? It's like, no, no, no. If you see somebody as a sister, it means you don't want them.You don't want to sleep with them. I don't want to [01:06:00] have kids with you, but the best marriages are second cousin marriages in terms of producing genetically healthy offspring. So, well, then we have to keep this recording then so that they can play it at their wedding one day. Yeah. Right. They'll be like, Oh my God, those creepshave a spectacular day. This has been a lot of fun to talk and you know, our podcast is actually doing well. Do you know, right now we're at 13. 7 thousand hours of watch time per 28 day period. Wow, dude, good job. Yeah, we have about like 13 people watching us talk at any given time. Anyway, I really appreciate it and have a spectacular day. And I'm glad that things are going well with you in this this project you're doing that how to have sex better. Because it is such a [01:07:00] good niche for you.Thanks. Have a great day. Okay. Bye bye. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

We explore recent studies finding high rates of dark triad personality traits like narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism among antinatalists. We argue antinatalism correlates more with these pathological traits than with depression. We discuss how the inability of narcissists to genuinely consider other perspectives makes them project their negative worldview. We also touch on how child support laws may select against dark triad traits in the population.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] the, the core personality traits that appear to be associated with antinatalism are generally dark triad personality traits, but specifically antagonistic narcissism, psychopathic meanness, psychopathic disinhibition, and antagonistic Machiavellianism.And then the other article that looked into this found. Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy were the primary traits that predicted antinatalist belief systems and then secondarily was depression. But you often found them together.Simone Collins: Yeah, and the difference is that we had thought that depression was first and foremost the big correlatory factor.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. You needed to be a narcissistic psychopath. And if you are a narcissistic psychopath and depressed, you're likely to be an antinatalist. You're aSimone Collins: sad narcissisticMalcolm Collins: psychopath. Like the level of narcissistic sociopathy that would deny life to another person. Who would want to [00:01:00] live just because you personally would prefer to kill yourself, but don't want to take the responsibility of killing yourself. To me, it's just this insane level of sociopathy. These studies helped me understand why we have such trouble getting through to the antinatalist community with logical arguments. Because it was never based on logic to begin with. It was always a psychiatric condition.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Known. Just sad. They'reSimone Collins: being beautiful. But,Malcolm Collins: I love you to death, Simone, and I am excited to be doing this episode because I always love, I mean, greatSimone Collins: thing we love shitting all over people and who doesn't holdMalcolm Collins: on. The great thing about the prenatal movement and and being seen as sort of its leaders is the an, an antithesis of us, the antinatalists movement.It's just so like, every time I dig deeper, it somehow is worse than I could have conceived it was. It's somehow [00:02:00] crazier than I could have conceived it was. And it's somehow more just like, transparently, and obviously the bad guys, in sort of this conflicting Like, like, it's like You know, I don't feel like there's been a fight in a long time where there were, like, obvious bad guys and good guys since, like, World War II and fighting the Nazis.You know, people sort of almost reminisce about these old times where there was a very obvious good guy side and a very obvious bad guy side. And the antinatalist movement, you know, they, they're like, well, we have to keep humans alive so we can kill all life on the planet too. But let's let's go into like how they came up again recently for us, right?Is I was having to do an audit of how different terms do and how our movement is doing in different search results. And the audit was actually kind of depressing for me in many ways. And that I'll look up something like demographic collapse and when I'm doing it in like an incognito browser, everything's like, this is why demographic collapse isn't a problem at all.[00:03:00] Demographic collapse, fake science.Simone Collins: Everything's okay here situation normal.Malcolm Collins: Actually, I should do some screenshots of this because I know, I know in like Two years when it's just so obvious that this is an issue. Everyone's going to say no one was ever saying that everyone always knew this was an issue.How dare like, it was funny. We had a reporter over from France at our house yesterday. And she goes, what do you think of all these you know, researchers at universities who are saying you guys are fake science and that you guys are making all this up. And I'm like, I love that they're saying this.Please put them on record because the more of them you put on record, the better I'm going to look in a few years when it turns out that we were 100 percent correct. And right now I'm like not even predicting this future data. It's like my scary predictions are just what's in the data right now. And they're not looking year to year at how bad things have gotten.But anyway, antinatalists are different, right? Like, they're not deniers that this is a problem. A lot of antinatalists know how bad fertility rates have gotten. They just think it's a morally good thing for people whoSimone Collins: want to learn more. Yeah, it cheers them up, which [00:04:00] means a lot, because they're often very depressed.Malcolm Collins: But we can talk about that, because there's statistics on this now. So this is something I hadn't thought to do, was to actually look up the statistics that correlated with antinatalism. And my naive thought from reading the antinatalist post is that depression would be the primary correlating psychological condition with antinatalism.AndSimone Collins: my naive thought actually, like we, we had a debate with leading antinatalists of at least one faction, John and Lawrence Anton in London. And they were incredibly like, it was clear that they were in it because they were Deeply, deeply, philosophically, intellectually concerned negative utilitarians.Like we ate in a vegan restaurant for dinner. You'reMalcolm Collins: autistic and you're bad at reading people. That is not why they were in it. No. No. And we can get into this more, but I think that you just believe whatever anyone tells you if they're being affable and kind. Yep. They were being affable and they told you something.And so you believed it because you're not [00:05:00] very good at reading people. It was a good veganSimone Collins: restaurant we went to though. It wasMalcolm Collins: a great vegan restaurant. But anyway so everybody knows, you know, and we've done episodes on this if people want to go into it more the psychological trait that is really overwhelmingly overrepresented in the pronatalist movement is autism.This is where the, the joke in the pronatalist movement of the greater replacement theory comes from. That the autists are going to replace everyone else. But I'd also say it's not just autism that is overwhelmingly seen in the pronatalist movement. Transcribed there's two other traits that I've noticed really, really big in the pronatalist movement.Oh my God. One is general high mood, like general happiness. Most of the pronatalists we know are like, I'd say bubbly people, maybe evenSimone Collins: a little Yeah, you're right. Low anxiety, low neuroticism, relatively speaking, from a type of person who often you would expect to be high neuroticism. Like at the natalism conference, a lot of like really big intellectual speakers and, and, and thinkers, like, you know, [00:06:00] high caliber, high caliber people were there.And yet they, the ones who had kids were like pretty chill for that. No,Malcolm Collins: it's a very low neuroticism movement and I'd say very high pro sociality. Like natural prosociality. So I'd say high autism, low neuroticism, a bit higher than normal prosociality. And you saw this at the conference, like the conference felt really weird to me because typically when I go to conferences where there's like something that people are like autistically obsessed with, you get higher than normal neuroticism within those communities.And it was a very interesting environment because you both had the autistic, like, Oh, everyone here is automatically my friend and I'm going to go up and talk to them and be nice to them. And you, you have like an anime convention or something like that, but then you didn't have the like constant fear from some people there where it's like constantly little explosions are happening.Cause one group thinks everyone else is their friend. And then the other [00:07:00] group is like super neurotic about people coming up and trying to engage with them. Don't touch me. So that was amazing. But so I'm looking up the statistics on, on what is most correlated with anti natalism. And I found, it turns out that there's actually like a body of literature on this at least multiple studies.And it seems like more than this because one here is talking about a larger body of studies here. So this has been at least replicated twice. So the, the core personality traits that appear to be associated with antinatalism are generally dark triad personality traits, but specifically antagonistic narcissism, psychopathic meanness, psychopathic disinhibition, and antagonistic Machiavellianism.I didn't evenSimone Collins: know that, like, wait. So what's the opposite of antagonistic Machiavellianism? I guess like super love bombing Machiavellianism. Is that [00:08:00] me? Is that me? Am I love bombing yet?Malcolm Collins: So, so this, this article that I was just quoting from came from dark personality traits and antinatalist beliefs, the mediating role of primal world beliefs.And then the other article that looked into this specifically this other article found. Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy were the primary traits that predicted antinatalist belief systems and then secondarily was depression. But you often found them together.Simone Collins: Yeah, and the difference is that we had thought that depression was first and foremost the big correlatory factor.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. You needed to be a narcissistic psychopath. And if you are a narcissistic psychopath and depressed, you're likely to be an antinatalist. You're aSimone Collins: sad narcissisticMalcolm Collins: psychopath. But it's something I actually see you know, and I think that this is a thing when we're talking about the people we met and stuff like that, Simone.And, and this can, I think for a lot of people, they hear antinatalist beliefs. And there is this like really, really [00:09:00] flimsy justification for antinatalism. If anybody wants to hear our argument as to why it's not, like, like why we go deep into the logic of antinatalism, you can watch our video These People Want Everyone Dead and Are Weirdly Reasonable About It.Or just, you know, look up the antinatalism video for Basecamp. And we go deep on that, but I always felt kind of uncomfortable with it, because when I go over the arguments antinatalism, it is so logically sort of shaky and, and really contrived that I, I sort of have this feeling, like, how, how are people arriving at this belief?And I was like, well, there must be a large amount of depressed people in the community, which there are, like, objectively, if you look at what antinatalist posts there are. But I, I was, I was still pretty confused. Now when I'm looking at how common narcissism and psychopathy are within the community, it really explains things for me.So, imagine you are just like an incredibly narcissistic [00:10:00] person and anyone who has met with or known narcissistic people. People who have narcissism, even if they're fairly smart people, it's a psychological condition that makes it almost impossible for them to genuinely consider the world from another person's perspective.And so you, you have this inability to genuinely consider, and what does it mean to consider things from another person's perspective? Because I think that people hear this and they don't understand what I'm saying, like, like a, a narcissistic person could hear this and be like, I think about things from other people's perspectives all the time.And it's like, no, when a narcissist tries to think about the world from another person's perspective, they just clone their own personality and their own intentions onto the other person. They don't consider, well, you know, we'll, we'll talk about how you don't actually do that in a second, because I think that you're being overly disingen dis, dis what's the word?Not giving yourself enough credit. They are not good at considering That an outside person might [00:11:00] genuinely have different ideas and motivations in them. They say, what would have driven me to that position? And then they use that to model the individual. And so, if you areSimone Collins: Someone, goMalcolm Collins: on, yeah. Yeah, but if you are a deeply depressed person and you also have this narcissistic personality,Simone Collins: then of course everyone wants to die or not exist, wishes they were never born, but heMalcolm Collins: tells you, I don't actually want to die.I really love my life. You are in, you're like, no, yeah, because of this psychological problem that they have. Um, So, so this is why narcissism is so elevated within the community, is it's, you've got this depressed population, and depression is really high within the urban monoculture because, for reasons we've talked about in other videos, you can look up, like, the Cult of Psychologists episode we've done if you want more on that but The, you know, people who are far progressives are much more likely to be depressed because they've stripped [00:12:00] out a lot of their traditional sort of emotional infrastructure and then they become susceptible to a lot of these memetic sets which prey on sort of their depression.Like the modern day psychologist movement, which psychologists used to be great. Not anymore. You can go to our video. Is psychology a cult? I don't know. Were they? BecauseSimone Collins: like, I just feel like it went from Freud to like where we are now.Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. There was an intermediate stage. I know the age of cognitive behavior.They warned us against all of the stuff psychologists are doing today. They're like, there was a period in the 70s where people accidentally created dependency with their patients. Yeah. Don't do that. But it appearsSimone Collins: Well, and then in the 60s and 50s, it was still all psychoanalysis. Maybe it was Jungian, but still, like, that's not No,Malcolm Collins: no, there was a period from like, uh, 80s, 90s, early aughts, I think, when it was When it was all CBT.Yeah, CBT, CBT is fantastic.Simone Collins: It's like the one, the one bright spot. Okay, I don't think that counts.Malcolm Collins: No, hold on, but we gotta go back to where we were talking about here. We've got other videos on this other stuff. And people can [00:13:00] watch that if that's what they're interested in. Um, so, you're out there and you are depressed.And you have this narcissistic personality trait, you are unable to believe that other people like their lives. And you are unable to genuinely accept their perception and their arguments about why life is worth living. Because you personally, and this is common when a person has clinical depression, you personally are unable to see the genuine positives of being alive.But. Then the question would be like, yeah, but it's not just narcissism that this has a heavy overlap with, it's also psychopathy and Machiavellianism. And it's like, well, yes, because there's individuals who hear this and they're like, okay, everyone else is just faking being happy, the world sucks, right?But then it takes a special type of psychopathy to then think, so we should kill everyone. I should make it my life goal and I will be a [00:14:00] hero if I champion the death of all humans. And when I say Well,Simone Collins: now, now, only a small minority does. We have to be clear that like most antinatalists just don't want any more humans to exist.So they want to basically end humanity, but not necessarily kill all living humans.Malcolm Collins: I, again, I think this is you believing what people are saying to you with a kind face and not, if you look at what they say behind the scenes, and I will post a clip here of the leading female antinatalist, like, in the world, what does she say?She says, if I could press a button, and it would kill all humans today, even if it meant they had to die by being skinned alive, I would still press that button.Yeah, so, look, in the interest of the end, if you could end suffering tomorrow, yeah, probably anything is justifiable. Inflicting just about anything is probably justifiable, imposing just about anything is probably justifiable, if you can end it. If you, if there's literally, [00:15:00] you can guarantee no more ouch ever again, then there probably isn't.a big enough out you could make that wouldn't be justified in the interest of that end, probably by any means necessary. Like if I found out tomorrow that the only way that you could, that sentient extinction could possibly happen was skinning all the living things alive slowly. I'd hate it, um, but I would probably, I would say that it's what we have to do.I'm totally I'm totally on board with the idea that the only thing that really matters is the suffering coming to a finality. So, yeah, anything in the interest of that, if you can guarantee that, even despite whatever imposition or nastiness might be necessary.Malcolm Collins: Yes. [00:16:00] You, you, they, when they're talking to you, they're in nice mode, Simone. People aren't naturally confrontational with other people. And I think that you, because you have such thisSimone Collins: Well then why? Why, when people are kidnapping other people, don't they just go like Little miss, why don't you just step into this car, please?Malcolm Collins: I mean, I don't know. I think kidnappers are actually nicer to their victims than you would think, especially after they've been with the kidnapper for a while. This is how you get things like the John Burnett Ramsey, I want to say what's her name? Is thatSimone Collins: John Burnett Ramsey? I'm sorry.Malcolm Collins: No, it's the chain.Childhood. IsSimone Collins: it Katie Hurst? StockholmMalcolm Collins: Syndrome. No! Stockholm! Oh my God, this bothers me so much. Oh,Simone Collins: you're thinking about Hurst. Yes. Yes. You're thinking about Hurst. Yeah. HurstMalcolm Collins: is a real example of what is called Stockholm Syndrome. I know. Yeah.Simone Collins: However,Malcolm Collins: Stockholm Syndrome the event in Stockholm that people attribute to Stockholm Syndrome is not a real example of Stockholm Syndrome.[00:17:00]Really? No. Yes, the cops really were trying to get the, the people killed. Like, if you, if you watch it as an outsider the, the cops really did not care about the lives of the people who were in the hostage situation. They did almost get them killed. And the people in the hostage situation had every right to be identifying with their Hostage takers over the police.That's interesting. Hurst is a very different situation. She actually did just decide to join this, this psychopathic kidnapper. Maybe he was hot. I don't remember how we Well,Simone Collins: Actually, I'm gonna look him up. Hurst.Malcolm Collins: Kidnapper? Oh my god. Because, well, I mean, with this women, Cause I don't know,Simone Collins: like, I don't know if, if Stockholm Syndrome can't be a thing.If it was a really hot kidnapper. Right.Why are there not images coming up of him right away? It's just her. I want to see him. This is soMalcolm Collins: lame. I wonder how many women would be like, would also have this thought like, well, if he [00:18:00] was hot enough.Simone Collins: But seriously, like then it doesn't count. It was just like a hot, powerful guy. Of course, she's going to go for him anyway.I can't find pictures. SoMalcolm Collins: anyway, so, you are fantastic, man. I love it. But I, I find this really. Interesting, and I think it tells us a lot about the antinatalist movement, because, you know, I have that one video where I go through and I'm reading, like, antinatalist subreddits, and they're talking about how we need to kill everyone, and how we and you here, of course, as an outsider, are like, oh, they can't possibly mean that, right?Because a psychologically sound person wouldn't think like that. And so here you are thinking that, right? These are psychologically. And keep in mind, like, psychopaths are very good at being affable with other people. This is how serial killers work, right? Like, you're here being like, Oh, but the, the clown man was so nice, you know, he, he performed in our kids.He can't possibly [00:19:00] be the serial killer. And whereas what you're antinatalist community is what could essentially be thought of as a, Okay. Community of serial killers, basically. That has gotten together and is sharing ideas with each other. And I think that when you take into account, and this is why, like if you look at our video Logically Arguing Against Antinatalism, and our points, I think, are just rock solid.I think if it was really logic that was driving them to this perception, that that video would have persuaded far more of them to deconvert from antinatalism than it did. I do not think it is logic. I think it is justification justification of something they want to believe. And so they go at it and they're like, how can I make this belief system justifiable for myself?But I do not think that antinatalism is a belief system that is ever reached by logic. Because the logical arguments just aren't very good. Like the, asymmetry argument is garbage. And again, you can watch our video on this. Well, and antinatalists also seem to [00:20:00] have trouble engaging with logical arguments.So here's an example.Simone Collins: I feel like all they ever do is engage in, at least performatively, logical arguments. Yeah, but that'sMalcolm Collins: the thing. Formatively logical arguments that are very bad. So you had an anti natalist reach out to you and you got so annoyed by it because it was just such a bad argument. He goes like, well, what's the difference between giving births to someone and going up behind them and injecting them with drugs.Right. And you're like, well, consent. And he's like, what? But the person didn't consent to be born. And it's like, yeah, but they can end their lives whenever they want. And then he's basically like, yeah, but I don't want to deal with that. That's basically the response to you can end your life whenever you want within the antinatalist community is, wait, you're saying I have to take personal responsibility for my actions as they relate to myself?And it's like, yes, yes, you do. What are you waiting for, huh? [00:21:00] What are you waiting for? What are you waiting for? What am I waiting for? What am I waiting for? What are you waiting for? F**k you!Oh my god!Malcolm Collins: Like the level of narcissistic sociopathy that would deny life to another person. Who would want to live just because you personally would prefer to kill yourself, but don't want to take the responsibility of killing yourself. To me, it's just this insane level of sociopathy.Um, which, which is very surprising to me that like, and then, well, Not surprising to me. These studies helped me understand why we have such trouble getting through to the antinatalist community with logical arguments. Because it was never based on logic to begin with. It was always a psychiatric condition.But a dangerous and common [00:22:00] psychiatric condition within the urban monoculture. Yeah, but at theSimone Collins: same time, like, this is, this both sounds very dire, but also in the end could be very hopeful, assuming that these people don't change their stance and have a ton of kids, because then this is just a selective pressure against.Yeah, dark triad traits that are, that are not pro social, that are not on the whole good for society. So, I mean, yay, isn't it fortunate that a lot of people with dark triad traits are also going to be. SelfMalcolm Collins: sterilizing. Yeah! I mean Well, actually, so this gets more interesting than the point that you're making, and I want to elaborate on the concept.Um, so, I also think that child support has done a lot to promote the reduction of dark triad traits.Simone Collins: So Oh, because you can't just, like, get a woman pregnant and, like, walk away and not have to worry about it.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so historically if you look at women there is some attraction to dark triad personality traits as you were talking about with the kidnapper thing, right?Like, powerful men with dark [00:23:00] triad personality traits in a historical context were more attractive to women who wanted random flings. And the red pillSimone Collins: will never let you forgetMalcolm Collins: it. Right. No, it's not useful, like, It's not a useful genetic strategy for a male, particularly these days. And somebody's like, well, what do you mean by that?It's because the women who will allow you to sleep with them if they're like, not interested in marrying you, are typically the low caliber women of both intellectually, attractiveness, and other genetic qualities wise. And, and then the high caliber women, they have a reason to be much more selective about this.So even when they are getting pregnant, they're typically selecting the sperm donor based on traits like pro sociality. But if you're talking about, and this is, by the way when women select sperm donors, pro sociality is one of the core traits they look for in research. This is like a well studied thing.But if you are one of these men who just like sleeps around. And you have this Machiavellianism, and narcissism, and, and, and sociopathy, other, other drug triad traits [00:24:00] you, because you just genuinely don't care about other people, or the world, or your potential kids you are not interested in getting other people pregnant.Because now there is huge negative consequences to you due to child support, at least insofar as you are to any extent successful. Now, if you are a very low genetic quality male, there's not as much risk to you. So I think that these men are still sleeping around and within these communities, dark triad personality traits will persist.But what we're seeing now is among the many partner strategy that used to keep these traits stable was in populations. There is much less reason for these individuals to breed. And even within these people who might have now turned to more monogamous relationships and stuff like that, which are now joining the anti natalist movement.They're also being selected out of the population, which to me leads me to believe that future human populations are going to be. dramatically more pro social and and more empathetic than human populations in the world today. Interesting.Simone Collins: Very interesting. ButMalcolm Collins: [00:25:00] also, if people know our other research on, on, on genetic selection, they're also going to be much more tribalistic and much more xenophobic.So basically you're going to have affable religious people who are very nice to anyone who they see as a cultural ally or within their community, and that who wants to kill everyone else in the world. Um,Simone Collins: well, I mean.Malcolm Collins: Bad. Well, I mean, so do you have any thoughts on these studies? Cause I, I mean, I was really surprised. This is not, you know, I genuinely didn't expect. It's surprisingSimone Collins: because most people.refer to pronatalists as narcissists. Like, Oh, you're just trying to spam the world with your children. Right. That's the constant accusation that we see for anyone who has a lot of kids. Oh, you're just so obsessed with yourself that you just, youMalcolm Collins: know,PROJECTION!Simone Collins:So yeah, it, it is a little surprising also because a really common way in which people hear about [00:26:00] narcissistic individuals is in the context of like narcissistic parents who are really damaging to the lives of their children. So you just, I don't know, like, I think it's, it's much more common in someone's evoked set to think about narcissists and like of self obsessed people as being more likely to be a parent, which is.Surprising, butMalcolm Collins: well, that's something I would encourage if people doubt this or are interested in learning about the antinatalist community. Genuinely, just look up their YouTube channels watch them talk for a bit. And I'd suggest if you have a good ability at reading people watch their eyes and watch their micro expressions in face.So I am microSimone Collins: expressions were largely debunked.Malcolm Collins: So. It kind of, I, I, People who are very good at reading other people typically rely on these sorts of expressions, but I don't know if they can be scientifically studied very easily.But as our audience may know, if they don't, is you are clinically autistic. You are very, [00:27:00] very, very bad at reading people. You just are like, are they nice to me or are they mean to me? And what are they saying? If they're nice to me and saying something, then they must be being honest. Whereas I am very, very good at reading people to like an insane amount.I, too much, too much. It's painful to you. It's painful to me how good I am at reading people. Yeah. Well, because I have a really high amount of empathy and it does. Oh my God.Simone Collins: You're like Edward Cullen in twilight where you just keep hearing everyone's. Thoughts and you're like, no, and I am like, what's her face?That Bapid girl who you can't read my thoughts because I don't have any. And you're like, Oh, this is so refreshing.Malcolm Collins: I will actually say that it has been a major part of our relationship is that I am very, very, very good at reading people. And because of that, I can genuinely or not genuinely but generally tell when somebody is, manipulating me or attempting to manipulate me. And I think that that's actually pretty common for females in, in [00:28:00] relationships.Simone Collins: Well, and I think also it's very mentally taxing for you to keep modeling people when they behaveMalcolm Collins: like that. Yeah, yeah. So I have to, you know, when they're in a fight or they're being pissy, I have to constantly model them and I find it very mentally taxing.I never have to model you. You are just a complete blank. You are who you are in public. In private, there is never a hidden agenda. Um, uh, and when there is a hidden agenda, it's like for five seconds, and then you crack up laughing and just tell me whatever it is. Like you, you are incapable of doing that.Did I ever doSimone Collins: something with hidden?Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, I think it's funny. Sometimes my family is like, well, can't you, she must be hiding something like people don't act like that. And I'm like, no, genuinely, like, if you understand her, you'd understand it is, it is an anathema to her character. There is nothing underneath.But if you go out and you watch these anti natalist channels as somebody who's good at reading people, or if you are good at reading people. It's, it's actually kind of obvious in hindsight that they feel this way. You, there is no anti natalist channel where people are [00:29:00] like on our channel laughing a lot, affable to each other, right?Like that seem to genuinely get pleasure out of life. Everything is very calculated and cold and dehumanizing of anyone who is not themselves. Anyway, Simone, I love you and fun episode. And again, I'm always grateful to our enemies to allow me to know I have made the right choices in life to align myself with people who are nice to me and, and generally don't try to tear me down.Because the pronatalist community is overwhelmingly nice except for one guy. But he doesn't go to the conferences and nobody really talks to him and everyone hates him.Simone Collins: Not everyone hates him. They just all recognize that he's a curmudgeon. That's all. That's a great sound.Malcolm Collins: I adore you. I adoreSimone Collins: you, Malcolm.And I love that you find these things. And talking with you is just way too much fun. It's like a complete highlight of my life. So, [00:30:00] thankMalcolm Collins: you for You're a highlight of my life. And I am so excited for dinner with you tonight. OhSimone Collins: gosh, I'm thinking about it already. Ugh. But, let's talk more. I love you though. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

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