The Leadership Podcast

Dr. Joseph A. Allen has written more about meetings in the academic literature than anyone. He is a Professor of Industrial and Organizational Psychology at the University of Utah. On the show, he shares recent research that shows hybrid meetings are better than either in-person or virtual meetings. Dr. Allen shares his rules for effective meetings, whether in-person, virtual, or hybrid; and how to foster inclusivity and engagement. Do you know your people? Have you talked to them? What do they want? Encourage participation. … There are ideas out there that will solve the problems in our organizations. We just need to let our people share them. Key Takeaways [2:01] Dr. Allen has written more on meetings in the academic literature than anybody else! [3:11] Having poor meetings is a problem in nearly every organization. [4:33] In the first week of March 2020, Dr. Allen and his co-author Karin Reed predicted that video meetings and remote work would happen in five to 10 years. Instead, they started two weeks later in the COVID-19 pandemic shutdown! Web video cameras were hard to find by May! [6:13] Dr. Allen collected data in June 2021 for a study showing that face-to-face meetings before the pandemic weren't great, virtual meetings were as good as face-to-face meetings, and hybrid meetings were better than either. If you make sure everyone is seen and heard, hybrid meetings can be the most inclusive type of meeting. If you don't put the effort into it, they are challenging to do well. [8:15] Early adopters were running hybrid meetings that started on time, ended on time, and had an agenda and a purpose. They encouraged participation. They were following the best practices Dr. Allen had been preaching for years. If you do those best practices, you can have a good meeting in any format. [9:41] In virtual or hybrid meetings, there should be one camera for each participant. We can't continue to set up conference rooms with the "bowling lane" approach. We need to work toward finding the best way to use multiple cameras and microphones. [11:18] If you don't know how to facilitate a meeting based on the agenda, you will not hold a good meeting. Dr. Allen talks about the need for procedural communication, to interrupt a monologue and steer the conversation back to the objective. He also notes that most meeting leaders have a blindspot to their faults and think they do a better job of facilitating meetings than they do. [15:30] Dr. Allen says it is paramount to use your camera in a video meeting. If you want your voice to be heard, turning your camera on provides the additional input of facial expressions and gestures. Don't turn off your camera so you can check your email. Be engaged. Leaders, run your meetings so participants need to be engaged, or you are giving them an out not to engage. [17:42] Who needs to be in the meeting? Part of planning for a meeting is selecting who needs to be invited. [18:21] Everybody doesn't need to be invited to every meeting. They need time to do their regular work. With the pandemic and seven-step "commutes," managers started filling commute time with more meetings. Sometimes sharing the meeting minutes is better than having everyone in the meeting. Or record the meeting and others can play it back at 2X speed. [20:5] Between choosing phone or video, you should hold a video meeting when you're meeting someone that you've not worked with a lot. If you don't see each other, someone might be confused over your meaning. [22:24] The more complex an issue, the more important it is to have a virtual environment that allows sharing charts as well as seeing each other. Phones are good tools for simple issues. [23:09] If you don't know how people are going to react to what you throw out there, use the strongest communication modality you can. In-person or video is better than phone, email, or text to communicate a complex message. [24:13] Joe recommends a virtual commute, which is taking the time to get your brain ready to work, and after work, getting your brain ready to be home. You could listen to a podcast, a book, or the radio. You are giving your brain the natural cues to transition to the next environment with its activities.[26:23] It's psychologically healthy to take breaks, reflect, and focus. Joe has a paper on meeting recovery under review at a journal. This is discussed in his book, Suddenly Hybrid. Humans need moments to be human. Without transition time, we start to burn out. Meeting recovery is a big issue. Make meetings 25 minutes or 50 minutes long so people can take a break before their next meeting! [31:09] The best practices for any meeting, in-person, hybrid, or virtual: Have an agenda, start on time, end on time, have a purpose, and describe the purpose at the beginning of the meeting. [31:40] The best practices unique to hybrid meetings: The leader sets ground rules, like calling people by name and asking them to participate; it's OK if the answer is, I don't have anything to add. That way, everybody gets a chance to be seen and heard on this. Set a ground rule that it's not OK to turn the camera off and disengage. It's up to the participants to help and participate. [32:54] Dr. Allen strongly recommends the leader rotate the location of the hybrid meeting, either office or a remote location. It reminds the leader how hard it is to participate remotely and how important it is to engage the remote participants. The leader should set the rule for the discussion part of the meeting that remotes chime in first before anyone in the room does. [33:57] It's easy for the people in the room to create a tiered communication system, where the people in the room are primary and the people on video or audio are a secondary group. This derails the sense of team effectiveness. Rotate who speaks first among the remote participants; if you know your team, you know who will respond well to being called on first and share their thoughts briefly. [36:57] Gary Hamel, author of Humanocracy, has advocated for years that we stop managing people like Napoleon, command and control. Now managers are insisting we get back to work nine to five. Dan Price, CEO of Gravity Payments recently said, "If you get your work done, that's all that matters." [37:44] Surveys of workers show that some people want to work from home more and some people want to work from the office more. To retain your top talented folks, establish policies and procedures around hybrid work that allow people to work from home when they need to and work in the office when they need to. Add some required days where people come together and re-energize the team. [39:28] On days when you bring everybody in, have people collaborate. Why commute for an hour to sit in a box? Collaboration is skills-based. Leaders can read about it and implement it. It can be done even by people who are introverts because they know that collaboration on their team is important to their success. On all-hands days, have team meetings and things that cannot easily be done virtually. [41:40] CEOs, are you creating an environment for your leaders to learn how to do this really hard stuff that is leadership today? [43:01] One size does not fit all. Different teams have different requirements. Get to know your people and provide a sense of flexibility that might be a little more uncomfortable than you would like. If you don't accommodate your people, you may lose them, even though they may find out the grass is not always greener over there. [47:20] Dr. Allen issues a challenge to the listeners: 51% of our meetings are rated as poor. The ways to improve meetings are not rocket science. Take stock of your meetings. Think about what would be the ideal situation. See what you may not be doing and try it. Encourage participation. There are ideas out there that will fix problems in our organizations. We just need to let our people share them. Quotable Quotes "There isn't actually a course in the management schools across the country that trains people on how to run effective meetings; why would we do effective meetings?" "Everybody had to figure out what was going to work for them in their environment." "What we learned is that we can do this. We can meet remotely. We can make it work effectively." "Early adopters are often those people who know how to make the Apple Watch work really well. Or they know how to pull things up on the screen that you don't know how to do. They're the people that take on technology and just embrace it." "The meeting leader, who comes in with an agenda and a purpose, gets steamrolled by somebody … who just goes off on their favorite topic. … That leader needs to know that they can say, 'Thank you for that comment. That's meaningful. I'd like to get your thoughts on this.'" "You know that one bad meeting causes three more meetings! That is scientifically shown across a lot of different samples and a lot of data. It's worth the effort to make the meetings better because it means we should have fewer meetings moving forward." "[A 'virtual commute' is] that psychological and meaningful human transition from one thing to the next. And we need that transition time. Without it, we start to really burn out." "It's easy for those folks in the room to create a tiered system of communication, where the people in the room are the primary and the people that are not in the room, whether it be on video or audio, become a secondary group. That ... can derail the sense of ... 'team.'" "[Collaboration] can be done even by people who are not the most collaborative or wanting to be. … Introverted people … learn how to do it, anyway, because they know that collaboration in their team is really important for the success of their team." "It's all about: Do you know your people? Have you talked to them? What do they want? And if you go against what they want, be prepared for the ramifications! Be prepared for the mass exodus that's been happening in some organizations." "Encourage participation. … There are ideas out there that will solve the problems in our organizations. We just need to let our people share them." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Dr. Joseph A. Allen Dr. Joseph A. Allen on LinkedIn Karin M. Reed on LinkedIn Apple Watch Suddenly Hybrid: Managing the Modern Meeting, by Karin M. Reed and Joseph A. Allen Suddenly Virtual: Managing Remote Meetings Work, by Karin M. Reed and Joseph A. Allen Gary Hamel The Future of Management, by Gary Hamel with Bill Breen Humanocracy: Creating Organizations as Amazing as the People Inside Them, by Gary Hamel and Michele Zanina Dan Price Gravity Payments

Marlene Chism works with C-Suite leaders to build drama-free cultures that drive growth and reduce costly mistakes. She's the author of four commercially-published books and a LinkedIn Learning instructor. Marlene shares simple ways to deal with conflict. Marlene advises using curiosity to learn more about the parties to the conflict, and explains the dangers for new leaders of being nice. She also shares leadership traits and the importance of being in alignment. And remember, willingness is the fulcrum point of change. Key Takeaways [1:52] Marlene Chism loves to dance. Marlene suggests turning off his "thinking brain" to find his rhythm! [3:38] Marlene says we mismanage conflict with the three "A"s: Appeasement, Aggression, and Avoidance. When we think of conflict as a problem, we fear it. [4:05] Marlene has a new definition for conflict: Opposing Drives, Desires, and Demands. It's not one person "out to get" another. People want different things for different reasons. When you take the personal aspects out of conflict and define it differently, your gut reaction to it changes. [4:34] Generally, we mismanage conflict because we have an inner conflict first. In other words, I might need to have a difficult conversation with you but I also want you to like me. I mismanage it because I have two opposing drives, desires, and demands within myself. [5:35] When is the right time to address potential conflict? Marlene says we have to get curious, and the sooner, the better. Good contracts create good relationships. Marlene offers ways to be direct and find clarity. Bring up questions earlier, rather than later. [6:55] Sometimes we imagine conflict where there is none. Are we negotiating with ourselves? Marlene suggests watching your narrative. Don't believe everything that you think. Say, "I observed this; my perception is that." That gives grace to the other person to clarify if they meant something else. Being assertive beats the alternative of making up a story and creating a bigger conflict than what was there. [8:29] Marlene says she takes a breath and thinks about whether she has all the facts to be sure she is right. If she's feeling angry, she interprets it as that she needs more information. Marlene always asks "Are you willing to be wrong?" [10:19] Willingness is the fulcrum point of change. Nothing happens until there's willingness. If I haven't been willing, it means I'm in a state of resistance. [11:01] Marlene says drama is an obstacle to peace and prosperity. She uses the visual of a rowboat with a person in it going to an island. A shark between the boat and the island is the obstacle. When we're in drama, we're distracted. Marlene compares employee drama with top-level drama. CEOs who think they are above the drama are not hands-on and are keeping secrets from their team so they look competent. [13:24] If you're not working toward a purpose; if you don't have a shared vision, and if you don't feel excited, that's an obstacle. We all have to take responsibility for our engagement and desires. There is a symbiotic relationship between the employee and the company. [14:05] Marlene discusses her latest book, From Conflict to Courage. In the workplace, Marlene says courage is not taking the easy path; not taking the path of being perceived as "nice." Marlene's book sets up a framework of Conflict Capacity with three overlapping circles: Culture, Skillset, and Inner Game. The three together give you the ability to clarify conflicts. [16:18] Marlene says in the long run, aligning with your values and what you promised your customer is going to serve you. What is the point of being profitable if you are miserable because you don't understand alignment? [17:26] Marlene defines leadership. It is alignment or focusing energy. Aligning everything in your business trumps opportunity. Opportunity can be a distraction and lead to drama. [18:32] If something is operating in harmony, it's very efficient and very effective. Marlene says the owner wants to get to the treasure chest on the island, the leader wants everybody to row harder and faster, and the rower just wants a better seat cushion on the boat. A consultant has to look at all three perspectives. [19:52] In her latest book, Marlene writes about the price of being nice. She sees three identities of new leaders before they are oriented: Best Friend, Hands-off, or Hero. When we don't align with the values of leadership, we try to align as "best friends." [21:35] We can be friendly; we should be kind and polite, but when we don't understand our role as a leader, then it's about being nice, which is about manipulating. We think that being nice is making people like us, so we avoid being direct because it feels bad to say "No." We're afraid of hurting people's feelings, versus educating them on why prior decisions are not going to allow that new idea. [22:14] Peter Drucker, in his book, Concept of the Corporation, says that when front-line people give ideas and they don't match, don't look at it as if they're stupid or they don't get it. Look at it as they want to engage but they don't understand how the business operates and how the different departments work together. We should educate them. We want people to grow, not to like us. [23:27] People will like you if you are fair with them. Work on having a relationship with people. You don't need to conduct a personality assessment on your team to resolve conflicts. You need to spend time with them and talk honestly with them without posturing. [24:41] Feigning niceness but not wanting to develop a relationship, is not niceness. Some say the traits they have that distract are virtues. If people say that's just the way I am, Marlene asks them "Is that who you want to be?" Do you want to be authentic to the childish parts of you, or do you want to be authentic to the future you, who is growing, evolving, apologizing and working on yourself? [26:23] With a clear definition of how you want to show up, that changes the game. Ask yourself, am I willing to stop rolling my eyes and interrupting? Am I willing to notice that habit, to be a better communicator? [27:01] What are some of the challenges of building relationships without being in the office? It's an opportunity for those who want to be intentional about connection. Learn to be good in the office, on Zoom, on Teams, on the phone, and in text. Have a system because eventually, it will put you at the top. Be the one who follows through instead of ghosting. [28:22] You will never lose by deciding to be intentional about how you form relationships and how you treat other people. [29:14] What if you've been a coworker, and were suddenly promoted to manage people who were your "best friends"? Marlene hopes the organization would help to onboard you into management, but it doesn't happen very much. You're going to take on a whole new identity. Don't believe that the better you treat people, the more they're going to do you favors. They will take advantage. It's human nature. [30:09] Have a meeting with everyone, individually and in a group, to explain the new position and what it means. Marlene shares a script for being open and setting expectations from the beginning of the things that will change and how you will go forward. Generally, when expectations have not been set is the time Marlene is called in! You'll have to start with a clean slate and own the part you played. [30:59] You cannot set a new boundary out of the blue. It will make people your enemies. Tell your observations. Acknowledge your part in it. Explain how it is affecting the operation. Set the new rule and say everyone will need to comply. It will require, when someone messes up, for you to enforce the consequence you said would happen. A boundary is not solid unless you keep the boundary. [32:48] Leadership clarity is about situational analysis and the outcome. Without those two points of reference, you cannot solve any problem at all. Identify what's happening that shouldn't be, what's not happening that should be, how that affects your business, the two points of reference and the obstacles you think are in the way. Start with clarity. [33:58] Leadership identity is how you see yourself in relation to these issues. Leadership Identity drives everything but you can only be as effective as your ability to be clear. [35:01] Marlene recently had a clarification meeting with a new client. Just as they were about to sign the contract, the client wanted to add in a StrengthsFinder, as well. Marlene answered, yes, they could do that for an extra fee, but since we know the situation and the outcome, let's see if we can uncover some of those issues that are creating a lack of clarity and resolve them with what we've agreed to do. [36:23] What can happen if a board member is hired by opportunity (deep pockets and good connections) instead of by alignment (having the same values)? Drama! Jim compares conservative and progressive values in corporations around DEI. Marlene encourages getting to know the other person and learning what it's like to be in their shoes, whether or not you agree with them. Align with them. [40:05] The real problem is we're saying, "Just like them" or "Not one of us." We need to stop doing that. There's room for all, we just have to be willing to build that capacity and to be a little bit uncomfortable with it. That's what conflict capacity is about. Be willing to be wrong and be open. [41:17] The story you tell is the life you live. Whatever narrative you think or feel about yourself, is the source of your suffering. The good news is your story can also be the source of your "salvation." You can shift your story and see other things that are equally true and explore that.[42:18] Marlene found that you can only coach a regulated person. If someone's in their story and they're upset, all you can do is be a radical listener. You cannot coach someone that's not self-regulated. Marlene loves that you can help a person shift their story, and create a new possibility. [43:09] How and why has Marlene changed her identity several times? Marlene was a blue-collar factory worker for 21 years. She wanted something more. She had to learn business practices the hard way because you don't know what you don't know. She first identified with being a professional speaker. As she became more aware of business practices, she realized she was not as good as she thought! [44:36] Going from a front-line worker to a supervisor gives you a new identity and it can be completely overwhelming if you haven't believed, accepted, and felt that you are in that place. You have to feel it. [45:03] Marlene explains three life tragedies that occur mid-life: 1. I know I want something more but I don't know what it is. 2. I know what it is but I don't believe it's possible. 3. I know what it is and it might be possible, but now I have to be willing. Willingness is the fulcrum point of change. In any tragedy, you don't have clarity. You have to be willing to discover, develop, and deliver. Find your purpose. [47:55] If you're stuck, confused, in drama, or conflict, clarity can change any situation. Marlene's job is to hear the stories of the parties she coaches and help them get clear, and they will know the answer. Quotable Quotes "We are all afraid of conflict … and so … we try to avoid it. I call it the three 'A's: Appeasing, Aggression, and Avoidance." "Generally, we mismanage [conflict] because we have an inner conflict first." "Watch your narrative. Don't believe everything that you think." "I could be right, but I might be wrong and there might be one missing piece. … If I'm feeling that angry, instead of interpreting it as I've got all the facts, that means, I've got to have more information … because that helps me to calm down." "The question I always ask is, 'Are you willing to be wrong?' Or, 'Am I willing to be wrong?' Because nothing happens until there's willingness. … Willingness is the fulcrum point of change." "If I haven't been willing, it means I'm in a state of resistance." "In the long run, aligning with your values and what you promised your customer is what's going to serve you. … What is the point of being profitable and being successful if you are miserable because you don't understand alignment?" "My definition for leadership is that if leadership is about anything, it's about alignment and alignment is about focusing energy." "The owner wants to get to the treasure chest on the island, the leader wants everybody to row harder and faster, and the rower just wants a better seat cushion on the boat. As a consultant … it's about looking at all the perspectives." "You will never lose by deciding to be intentional about how you form relationships and how you treat other people." "If you've messed up for a while, which is generally where I come in, what you have to do is you have to start with a clean slate and you have to own the part you played. Because you cannot set a new boundary out of the blue. It will make people your enemy." "If you care more about them understanding than you do about your boundary, that's where you're going to be a poor leader." "Wherever there's drama, there's always a lack of clarity." "That's what conflict capacity is about, 'I'm uncomfortable with your ideas and thoughts and it's OK that I'm uncomfortable. I might change my mind if I'm willing to be wrong. And you might change yours if you're willing to be open.'" "If you're stuck or you're confused, or you're in drama or conflict, there's something that I live by, and that's: 'Clarity can change any situation.'" Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Marlene Chism Consulting Marlene Chism on LinkedIn Marlene's new book: From Conflict to Courage: How to Stop Avoiding and Start Leading Marlene's previous books: No-Drama Leadership: How Enlightened Leaders Transform Culture in the Workplace Stop Workplace Drama: Train Your Team to Have No Complaints, No Excuses, and No Regrets Success is a Given: Reading the Signs While Reinventing Your Life 7 Ways to Stop Drama in Your Healthcare Practice (Out of stock) LinkedIn Learning The Ladder of Inference Peter Senge The fifth discipline fieldbook: strategies and tools for building a learning organization, by Peter M. Senge Concept of the Corporation, by Peter F. Drucker StrengthsFinder DiSC Profile Tony Robbins

Joe Schurman teaches from his deep experience in the software, machine learning, AI, and processes that organizations need today as they transition to data-driven technology companies. He names some of the cloud services and tech tools he uses to lead clients to start with a user case, break it into stories, build a team led by the solution owner, assign the stories to developers to build, and iterate product demos until the Minimum Loved Project (MLP) is achieved. Joe offers observations on investing the "right" amount of time in projects, and wisdom on developing a learner mindset. Key Takeaways [2:06] Joe Schurman is a 2nd-degree black belt in Kung Fu. He once judged a competition in Las Vegas. He has four children; two daughters and two sons. [2:57] Joe is an expert on the fringes of what we can do with computing technology. What we can do changes every day. In the past couple of years, from an AI perspective, with data and automation, it's taken leaps and bounds. [4:30] We're still pretty far away from general AI, despite Sophia, an AI robot that was granted Saudi Arabian citizenship in 2017. Today's AI depends on the programming we give a machine and its interpretation and output. Joe's focus is narrow or weak AI. His business colleagues call it magic. Computer vision is an area he loves. [5:45] Joe uses a lab environment across Google Cloud Platform, Microsoft Azure, and Amazon Web Services. The capabilities that have come up in the last year are "just insane" with what you can do with computer vision and building libraries of what the machine can see. [6:06] Joe loved seeing a computer vision capability demonstration at AWS re:Invent of tracking every NFL player on the field and predicting injuries and other types of output and insights in real-time. The machine used narrow AI to access a library seeded with "a ton" of data to interpret the action. [7:15] What you can do with this technology comes down to the data that you feed the engine. Think about the amounts of data that organizations have to sift through to generate reflective or predictive insights. Auto machine learning helps organize the data into useful information such as anomaly detection in software engineering. The data can also come from tools like GitHub and Jira. [8:25] Joe did a fun computer vision project on UAPs for the History Channel, working with some of the nation's top military leaders, building a library of video and audio data to be able to detect unidentified aerial phenomena that were not supposed to be entering our airspace, and curating that library. [10:06] AI started with the idea of speeding up processes, such as getting an app to market faster or gathering insights quicker to make business decisions more timely. [11:28] AI can enhance human performance. Joe starts by finding people who know how to fail fast; to get a Minimum Viable Product (MVP) out the door. Solutions such as quality engineering automation, test automation, and monitoring services for DevOps detect bugs and performance issues quickly and ensure that the quality of the team is sound.[12:47] Joe notes the importance of individuals performing, contributing to, and collaborating as a team. Set your organization and standards governance up first. Look for a platform of technology to leverage that enables you to build and tinker. Finding the latest and greatest tool is no good unless it provides the right level of collaboration with their platform and connection to different processes. [14:53] When introducing ML to an organization, start with discovery, to understand the culture and talent within the organization. How are they communicating today? Joe sees the biggest gap between data scientists and data engineers. Projects tend to fail without collaboration, regardless of the tech. If the data scientists don't understand the domain, then the platform is irrelevant,[17:28] Joe stresses the need for a methodology in place to make any of these aspirations work for your organization. After discovery, there's an align phase. Focus on the outcome and the use case. The solution owner is crucial. The solution owner leads the technology team and brings them together around the client's outcome to develop that use case.[18:12] If you can't take an actual use case and break it down into bite-sized chunks or user stories, then the project will never be on the right track. Start with the use case to mitigate risks. Break the use case into user stories. Match the user stories with the number of engineers that can develop a number of user stories within a given time frame. [18:38] Those user stories given to the engineers are deducted into Story Points, in the Agile Process of engineering software. Price Waterhouse Coopers (PcW) has taken it to the next level, being able to do Engineering as a Service, being able to do it at scale, and being able to pivot quickly.[18:58] Joe explains what can happen if you have a great idea, take three to six months to break down the use case, and fill all the requirements, but hand it off to the Dev team that has no idea what the use case is: you get irrelevant software that doesn't tie back to the outcome! [19:22] Keep the solution team engaged in building the bridge between the subject matter expert stakeholders and the engineers. Every two weeks, demonstrate the iteration or program increment you have built. Does it match the outcome? Does it provide any relevance? Then take the feedback and figure out what happened in that iteration. Fix errors. You will build a product that has value to launch. [20:45] Communicate a lot, so all the people are on the same page! When you have stovepiped organizations where the departments don't talk to one another, you waste time, effort, and money building a product no one will use. One of Joe's colleagues, José Reyes, uses the term Minimum Lovable Project (MLP), where people rally around the outcome, not just the tech. [22:33] What skills and knowledge will the leaders of PwC need to endure for the next five years? Joe says first are character and attitude; people that have a hunger to build something, with a fail-fast mentality, and that are excited to learn constantly, that read every day and learn new technology. [24:27] Then know the tools. Documents exist on the internet for every solution and there is access to services like GitHub to download projects and starter templates without being an expert but just reading the README file and installing the base-level template, learning as you go, and as you tinker. That's way more valuable than coming in as a book-smart expert in a specific product or technology. [24:57] When it comes to tooling, there are products like the Atlassian platform with Confluence and Jira. For an AI stack, Joe typically works with AWS, GPC, and Microsoft, more so on the Amazon side with AWS AI tools, like Rekognition, Glue DataBrew, Redshift ML, Comprehend, and more. Amazon, Microsoft, and Google produce so much documentation and certification to get you up to speed. [26:30] Judgment, wisdom, and character will not be replaced by AI anytime soon. There's still room for philosophy in leadership. There are tools and technologies to speed up the processes, but not the individuals. There are no general AI solutions out yet to replace a pod of application developers, designers, and solution owners to execute a successful MVP or MLP out the door for a client. [27:55] Advice to CEOs: Be patient and understanding. Be willing to fail fast. Support tinkering and R&D, even if the project doesn't work out. Organizations are generally realizing that today they need to be data-driven, technology companies but there is still hesitance over the risk that needs to be taken. [30:03] Why would an insurance company or other traditional company need R&D? Look at Loonshots, by Safi Bahcall for some ideas about R&D. [30:56] Joe shares how he got to this point in his career. He wanted to play baseball but started at Compaq (now HP) when he was 18, writing scripts in Unix and other environments. Just being able to make certain changes to help clients get products faster and seeing the quick response from the outcomes felt like a home run to him! [31:49] Years later, Joe went on his own, with a vision to create telehealth before telemedicine was a thing, using Skype for Business and Microsoft Lync, enabling an API for that. Seeing people connect through a technology he had built, replaced the need to be a baseball star! Joe is grateful for the break he got at a young age and enjoys his work. [33:22] When Joe first started, he was trying to be the smartest person in the room, seeing the instant gratification of making code snippets that tested successfully. Eventually just building the app wasn't enough for him. He got the dopamine hit from seeing users interacting with his code and seeing its value. [34:58] Joe's mentors include many people he worked with. X. D. Wang at Microsoft Research inspired him to tinker, build, and focus on the short-run more than the long-run. Randeep Sing Pal at Microsoft Unified Communications was another great mentor. Also Steve Justice and Chris Mellon, in terms of character and collaboration. Joe shares how they mentored him. [37:23] Jan says something we forget about technology is that there are a lot of failures and attempts before the success hits. We have to be mindful of that as leaders to give people time and space to do really creative, cool things. [38:01] Joe appreciates the opportunity to discuss these things. Joe spent a lot of his career building software solutions that were way ahead of their time. It's frustrating to see telemedicine so successful now, but not when he attempted it. He had to learn to let go. It's not just about releasing bleeding-edge tech; you've got to find some value associated with it to resonate with the end-user. [39:31] Always think about the outcome and understand your audience first. And then be able to supplement the back end of that with bleeding-edge technology, development, tinkering, failing fast, and all the things that go with software engineering. Also, be humble! Get perspective from outside your bubble to build a better solution and be a better person. [40:49] WHenever you're setting out to build anything, start with a press release! Write a story of what it would look like if it were released today. Then just work back from there! Quotable Quotes "There are so many new and cool technologies and innovations that are coming out at the speed of thought, which are pretty fascinating." "I've been in real cloud engineering for about a decade, and from an AI perspective, with data and automation, over the past five to 10 years, in terms of running on a cloud environment, and it's just taken leaps and bounds." "You've got to be able to connect that [data] environment to a use case or an outcome. If you can't do that and you can't enable a data scientist to understand the domain, then the data platform is irrelevant. I see a lot of performance issues occur because of that disconnect." "If you can't take an actual use case and break it down into bite-sized chunks or user stories, then the project will never be on the right track." "In this industry, you're constantly learning; constantly reading. I'm reading every day and learning about new technology every day and how to apply it and how to tinker with it. I need people on the team … that have that ability or that hunger to tinker and learn." "Transitioning from a 'knower' mindset to a 'learner' mindset was the biggest shift for me." "Always think about the outcome and understand your audience first. And then be able to supplement the back end of that with bleeding-edge technology, development, tinkering, failing fast, and all the things that go with software engineering." Resources Mentioned Joe Schurman, PwC Joe Schurman on LinkedIn PwC Sophia robot granted citizenship I, Robot film Weak AI Google Cloud Platform Microsoft Azure Amazon Web Services AWS re:Invent GitHub Atlassian Jira Unidentified, The History Channel José Reyes, PwC The Shackleton Journey Atlassian Confluence AWS Rekognition AWS Glue DataBrew AWS Redshift ML AWS Comprehend Steve Justice on LinkedIn Chris Mellon Loonshots: How to Nurture the Crazy Ideas That Win Wars, Cure Diseases, and Transform Industries, by Safi Bahcall

Dr. Amer Kaissi is an award-winning Professor of Healthcare Administration at Trinity University, Speaker, Executive Coach, and author of Humbitious. A good leader often has a healthy balance of low ego and high ambition. If you're looking to create long-lasting change and longevity in a company, it comes down to balancing the humbitious approach. Amer shares how busy business leaders can experience a sense of profound transcendence, get their ego in check, and practice a bit of humility. Key Takeaways [2:30] Dr. Amer grew up during the Lebanese civil war and he shares how this profound experience has shaped the way he thinks about leadership today. [6:25] Jim Collins proposed a concept of Level 5 leadership, and this framework shaped a lot of what Dr. Amer's book, Humbitious, is about. [8:35] In the short term, power and ego are very important. However, long-term leadership effectiveness has the humbitious approach. [11:10] The aggressive leader vs. the passive leader. Neither is a good approach, but every leader must find a balance between the two. [15:00] Dr. Amer shares strategies to work through imposter syndrome. [18:55] Genuine humility can be an indicator of a lack of confidence. These leaders need to have their voices heard. [20:45] Humble leaders might not feel the need to step up for themselves, but if you frame it from the advantage of the team, they will begin to understand why it's important to speak up. [27:50] Dr. Amer shares the important impact of love in the workplace. [30:30] It was not too long ago that leaders would give advice to management to never show emotions because it was perceived as weak. Dr. Amer admits this is horrible advice. [31:30] Dr. Amer explores the importance of human touch in the workplace. Leaders are often afraid to have it be seen as an HR complaint. [33:30] We overcomplicate certain topics because we're too afraid to have the conversation. Do you want to touch? Have the conversation. [34:55] Dr. Amer shares what role "transcendence" plays in a leader's emotional wellbeing. [36:10] When you're deep in nature, it can almost feel like your own ego is dissolving. [37:15] Arrogance can make you feel like you're the center of the universe. [39:20] If you want to lead, you have to read. [41:35] Listener challenge: Humility is a strength, not a weakness. It's a superpower when combined with ambition. Quotable Quotes "Leaders who combine humility with ambition are those who will leave a long-lasting impact." "Take some time to think about what you've achieved in the last five years. Most people who have imposter thoughts are comparing themselves to an ideal version that's impossible to achieve." "As we all know as coaches, a strength that's overused becomes a weakness." "The research was very clear that the NBA teams that touched more and celebrated more ended up succeeding more." "Pause and reflect on all the things that are bigger than you. That may be nature, but it could also be the whole universe, history, or God." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Amerkaissi.com Dr. Amer on LinkedIn Dr. Amer on Twitter Grab Dr. Amer's book: Humbitious: The Power of Low-Ego, High-Drive Leadership Jimcollins.com Jeffreypfeffer.com Leadership: In Turbulent Times by Doris Kearns Goodwin

Dr. Jeb Hurley is a leading expert on leadership and team dynamics in hybrid and remote workplaces. Jeb traces his passion for helping people become better leaders and keeping team dynamics healthy to his painful experiences with toxic managers, dysfunctional teams, and low trust cultures. Over the past ten years, Jeb worked with leaders and teams in Asia and worldwide while researching leadership from a behavioral science and neuroscience perspective. He developed deep insights into the root causes of healthy and dysfunctional leader-team dynamics through that work. As organizations have increasingly recognized the value of influencing behavior and intrinsically motivating people, Jeb shares how to develop those skills by applying behavioral science in meaningful, proven, and sustainable ways. His insights will help you see how you can improve team performance and people's wellbeing. Key Takeaways [2:20] There are two aspects of Jeb's background: one is living a global life and career and two is holding the second shodan in karate. He expands on how both are related to being foundational in his path. [4:30] Jan asks Jeb where he would be if he was not able to ever travel again. [6:00] We humans are just simply wired for dysfunction because of our cognitive biases. Jeb explains how that is uncovered through his team trust dynamic model. [8:55] The main reason for bad self-awareness with leaders is the lack of trust. Jeb shares how leaders can operationalize trust. [12:10] Jeb breaks down trust in both behavioral and neurobiological aspects and how trust is wired in our reward systems. [14:50] The hallmark of high-performing teams is having tremendous clarity of purpose and alignment of their values. Jeb explains its importance and how these teams reject lone wolves. [19:05] Jim poses the question of the need for disruption when things get too comfortable and how that should be handled. [20:05] The real issue is that leaders assume value and purpose and they don't test or revisit them. It opens up the opportunity for "values creep" into areas like mediocrity. [22:05] Jeb talks about the combination of behavioral science to identify what inspires people and influence as a powerful tool in leadership. [23:50] Jeb also shares the different building blocks of empowering team purpose and values, inspiring motivation, and nudging behavior change. [25:50] Finding the human solution to problems can reap the biggest results. [27:45] Jeb shares what his motivation triangle is all about and how it can help managers understand why their people do what they do. [29:25] Humans are driven by three core psychological needs: finding purpose in what we do, developing the skills needed to realize that purpose, and having the freedom to fulfill this purpose. [32:05] Jim asks Jeb where a manager's responsibility starts and ends in the motivation triangle. [35:40] What Jeb has learned about leadership doesn't come from studying leadership. He shares the one thing all leaders should focus on. [38:35] The Experience/expectation dynamic defines the essence of every relationship you ever had. Jeb provides some examples to explain its impact. [41:30] Jeb tells the story of how he and his partner started their company, Brainware Partners. [45:10] One of the best practices for nudges is that it's not about the manager but it's about the team solving a problem together. Jeb shares that's what he observed in high-performing teams. [46:30] Listener Challenge: Put trust in psychological safety at the core of what you do. Quotable Quotes "Eight years in Asia makes you realize that the Western constructs of how we go about seeing, behaving, and preaching leadership is very different from what happens in other parts of the world." "It's typically that combination of cognitive biases and not really understanding how to operationalize trust that makes it really challenging for team leaders and team members to be consistent in delivering performance and well-being." "It's (trust) not all about just simple logic, there's a strong cognitive and emotional aspects or parts of it." "What's important is that everybody has this very clear sense that these are the values and this is what it means to be psychologically safe in this environment. So by doing that, those teams insulate themselves from lone wolves and toxic behaviors." "Lightning speed is just really a relative thing. People pretend to get really busy doing lots of stuff but are they doing the things that matter that actually move the needle? I would argue, not so much." "When we empower feedback, when we empower people in ways that build trust and psychological safety, it makes a huge difference." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Jeb on LinkedIn Jeb on Twitter Grab Jeb's books: Team Relationship Management: The Science of Inspiring Trust & Peak Performance, The ONE Habit: The Ultimate Guide to Increasing Engagement and Building Highly-Effective Teams

Kian Gohar is the founder of Geolab, an innovation research and training firm empowering leaders through coaching, strategy, and design. He helps inspire the world's leading organizations to harness disruptive trends transforming industry in the next decade and beyond. He is the co-author of "Competing in the New World of Work." As a historian and a futurist, he shares his thoughts and insights on the present and future trends with remote work and digitalization. Key Takeaways [1:50] Kian has never had a job he applied for. He has been unsuccessful at every job application he has had. [3:40] Talking about Kian's book, Competing in the New World of Work, Kian shares why radical adaptability is different today than ever before. [5:05] Adaptability is reactive whereas Radical Adaptability is proactive. Kian explains what this means. [7:30] Kian talks about being agile as one of the four leadership traits that they discovered that most successful teams have. He shares some examples to show how this helps balance action and patience. [9:15] Jan shares his own experience with agile teams and how they're not really agile. Kian explains how it can work on an organizational leadership level to support experimentation. [10:55] Kian shares some tips on how to structure and incentivize organizations with radical aspirations. He shares some examples from companies that were able to really innovate boldly. [13:20] Successful companies create a culture where employees feel psychological safety despite failures. [15:50] Kian thinks the present is not an enigma. He wants to attain a balance between gratitude for the present moment and hope for the future. [18:20] History doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme. Kian shares how you can use lessons from the past to gain foresight. [20:50] Having the right mindset is the most important thing we can focus on because it influences all of our actions. Kian shares some examples to explain further. [23:10] We always thought that meetings are the starting point for collaboration and innovation but Kian realized that is not true at all. He talks about asynchronous collaboration to explain why. [25:40] Jan asks Kian if there is any room for compromise for those who don't want to work asynchronously. [27:05] Kian shares what are the outcomes if organizations fail to adapt to these new ways and tools of working. [29:05] As a futurist and historian, Jim asks Kian for his thoughts about the expansion and contraction of location and geography with organizations. [31:10] This new remote or digital-first world will allow a lot of jobs and tasks to be done from anywhere. Kian shares further his insights into future trends. [32:25] Helping other people move outside of expensive cities can also help reduce inequalities that we face and internal social tensions in society. [33:35] Humans are social animals but there is a space and time for that physical connection. Kian talks about the hybrid model and how this can be more acceptable to the younger generation. [35:30] It's really critical for leaders to think purposefully about how we design incentives and culture because it has a huge impact on people. [37:50] Zooming in vs. remming in. Kian shares what that means and his thoughts on future trends. [39:30] Listener challenge: Think about how you want to build a community that creates a differentiation between yours and others despite the democratization of technology. Quotable Quotes "I've been unsuccessful for every job application I've ever had. I had to create my own path and career over the last twenty years." "Somebody told me earlier that entrepreneurship is not a career, it is something that you go from opportunity to opportunity and think of it that way." "When we think about radical adaptability, it is predictive, proactive, and progressive. It's a guide for anticipating change and being ahead of the curve rather than having to react to something." "Resilience isn't about the exact moment now, it's about how you build the energy to be able to not be on the current hill that you are on but rather to make the next hill you're climbing easier." "History doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme." "We work remotely and I've never accomplished more than working in this asynchronous collaboration way." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Kian.is Kian on LinkedIn Kian on Twitter Grab Kian's book: Competing in the New World of Work

Nancy Sherman is an ethicist and professor of philosophy at Georgetown University with a focus on ancient Greek and Roman philosophy. She is an expert in ethics, the history of moral philosophy, moral psychology, military ethics, and emotions. In this episode, Nancy discusses her latest book, "Stoic Wisdom: Ancient Lessons for Modern Resilience." "To be resilient is to have stamina and persistence, but it's also to be sustained and supported in your endeavors." Key Takeaways [5:24] Stoicism naturally fits in the military because it's about sucking it up and being invincible. Nancy explains why she worries about this message. [6:40] Nancy thinks that rather than being invincible, stoicism is about understanding vulnerability and how anxiety is created by uncertainty. [8:05] Nancy explains what moral injury means and how it weighs heavily on different kinds of people. [9:30] Stoicism helps you think about how to cope in different situations and manage emotions and uncertain futures. [10:30] One of the factors in the growing popularity of stoicism is the interest in secular religion. Nancy expands on this further. [11:45] Other factors driving the fascination with stoicism are: Self-help is always a hot seller, people who are good at marketing use it as a niche, and Silicon Valley has an interest in it. [13:25] Nancy adds in a fifth factor which is about the Roman Philosophers. [14:35] Nancy thinks stoicism is not only about aestheticism. She explains what that means. [15:00] Post-traumatic stress vs. moral injury. Nancy shares what's their difference and how stoicism helps manage the latter. [17:20] Resilience vs. grit. Nancy shares her perspective on both. [18:30] Resilience is not self-reliance. She explains how. [21:20] Most studies of resilience suggest that strength does not come from inner toughness but from the ability to be open to receive help. [22:45] The Stoics were thinking of a community of humanity where we share reason, affective emotional judgment, and empathy. Nancy shares an example. [25:30] One of the commitments of stoicism is to expand outward as a member of an effective community. Nancy explains how we can learn from this to be better leaders. [26:50] Nancy talks about how stoics deal with implicit bias and the emotions that come with it. [29:50] Stoicism vs. neurobiology. Nancy shares that not all stoicism is worth saving in modern times and explains why. [32:10] Grace comes from the Greek word, Hara (Χάρις) which means charity. Nancy refers to some examples of goodwill from the stoics. [35:00] Nancy gives another example of mutuality in stoicism that explains her view further about grace. [36:30] Nancy also talks about self-empathy and how it's very important to be gentle to yourself. [39:30] Jan asks Nancy about ethics and morality and if there is a shortcut to master them. [49:20] Listener Challenge: Embracing stoicism within being emotionless and practicing communal resilience. Quotable Quotes "I really worry deeply that the message being put out that you are bulletproof or invincible or you have to suck it up at all costs was dangerous." "If you wanna go without organized religion, stoicism is a way to go." "It's more about how you can face the challenges and sometimes, facing the challenges involves healing." "To be resilient is to have stamina and persistence, but it's also to be sustained and supported in your endeavors." "If you hit the pause button a little more, suspend judgment, and not give in or ascent to all those immediate ways we respond, we may have a better chance of engaging in discourse." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Nancysherman.com Nancy on LinkedIn Nancy on Twitter Grab Nancy's books: Stoic Wisdom: Ancient Lessons for Modern Resilience, Afterwar, The Untold War, Stoic Warriors, Making a Necessity of Virtue, Aristotle's Ethics, The Fabric of Character: Aristotle's Theory of Virtue

Hugh Blane doesn't claim to know everything about your business. He does claim however to know more than anyone about converting human potential into accelerated business results – that's why his clients call him The Talent Alchemist. In the world of work, the single greatest asset of successful individuals, teams, and organizations is their mindset--what happens in between their ears. It's not the corporate strategy, the sales compensation plan, or the market segments they're pursuing. It is what each leader, team member, and employee chooses to focus on, believe, and create for themselves and others. From Hugh's book, "7 Principles of Transformational Leadership" he discusses the fundamental concepts that will result in dramatic revenue, performance, and relationship growth. Specifically, leaders will learn to: Live their professional and personal lives with unbridled purpose and passion. Retain the brightest and best talent. Have employees, key stakeholders, and managers enthusiastically follow them. Hguh says that you may have employees with all the talent in the world, but you'll never achieve remarkable results until you change your employees' mindset. Listen in to learn more! Key Takeaways [7:10] Hugh uses Tom Brady as an example for his Seven Principles of Transformational Leadership. [8:35] "Heartset" is often missed when recruiting for talent. Hugh explains what a heartset is. [10:45] Driven vs. Drawn. Hugh shares what's the difference between the two. [12:50] We are in the midst of a war for talent. Hugh shares his insights on how to retain talent while keeping a high performance standard. [15:35] Hugh talks about one of his good friends, Jim Kouzes, and how he signs all his emails with "Love and Lead." [16:50] Hugh went through his own personal transformation back when he was forty-seven years old and shares his insights. [19:05] Hugh shares examples of how leaders can be persuasive by talking less. [22:35] Technology is getting in the way of our curiosity and the algorithms are to blame. [25:40] If you really wanna do something, you don't have to be held accountable. Hugh explains what that means and the difference between asking for accountability vs. holding someone accountable. [29:15] Hugh explains how to be a human doing vs. a human being and shares his thoughts on employee engagement. [33:05] The best thing you can do for underperforming employees is to find a way for them to form their self-worth, self-esteem, and self-efficacy, whether it may be in the same organization or not. [36:05] Hugh's sole job is to help people become the best version of themselves. He explains how through his model: reframe the past, reclaim the future, and recalibrate the present. [39:30] Hugh shares a story to share that encapsulates a leader's responsibility to help people and in turn help themselves. [43:35] Adversity and setbacks are the greatest catalysts for the next level of learning and growth. [45:00] Listener Challenge: Think big and pursue greatness in filling the blanks. Quotable Quotes "We don't talk about the heartset much, which is, you may have the skill but not the will to really do the dirty long work to become excellent or great in your craft." "'Drawn,' I think, lasts longer than 'drive.' Drive is what makes motivation get started." "Are you pursuing excellence in yourself as a leader? Because you can't expect anyone inside your organization to do something or follow something if you're not doing it." "I may disagree with you but I will not be disagreeable. I just want to be in conversation and I can learn something from you." "The purpose of life is to find your gift and the meaning of it, and the meaning of life is to give it away." -David Viscott Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Hugh on LinkedIn Hugh on Twitter Grab Hugh's book: 7 Principles of Transformational Leadership: Create a Mindset of Passion, Innovation, and Growth

Simon Mainwaring is CEO of We First, Inc., the creative consultancy that strategizes, integrates, and activates the growth, productivity, and impact of the world's most successful brands. As a global keynote speaker, New York Times bestselling author of We First and LEAD WITH WE, and highly-awarded brand futurist, he works with leading CEOs, CMOs, and entrepreneurs to define their business strategy, company culture, and brand communications. Simon is a sought-after international speaker whose presentations engage and inspire audiences to think and act in new ways that LEAD WITH WE around a collectivized purpose. He has been voted a Top 5 Marketing Speaker by speaking.com for 5 years in a row, and featured on the cover of the National Speaker's Magazine. From the Cannes Lions Festival to Google, from Necker Island with Sir Richard Branson to the United Nations Foundation, and now on The Leadership Podcast, he delivers a roadmap for revolutionizing your business from the ground up by factoring all "shareholders" into your collective future for all your business decisions. Key Takeaways [2:20] Simon talks about his two daughters who have been trapeze artists since they were three years old. [4:05] Spending fifteen years in big creative advertising agencies, Simon shares his views on capitalism and how his opinions have evolved. [6:10] Simon thought about using the power of storytelling in business to make a difference, which led to his dialogue around capitalism. [7:25] Simon explains where the danger comes from when influence turns into manipulation. [8:50] It's a constant in human nature to play with power but there is nowhere to hide now. The motive will eventually get exposed. [10:50] Capitalism as we know it is dead; it has evolved. Simon expands on this further. [12:40] Business leaders and owners will suffer if the societies they live in fail. It is best to re-engineer capitalism that better serves people and the planet. [13:55] Do well by doing good vs. the virtuous spiral of collectivized purpose and action. Simon explains what that means and how they differ. [16:40] COVID-19's silver lining is that it has been a massive global moment of reflection. Simon shares his thoughts further on the current generation's awareness that our future is compromised as an optimistic period. [18:45] Strategy vs. tactical execution. Simon shares his objections to stakeholder capitalism. [20:30] Our actions are levers for change if we look at it through the lens of collective action. [24:40] We have defaulted to what makes us the most money, the fastest way, and at the greatest convenience for everyone. Simon describes how that impacts us now. [28:00] There is a great opportunity to leverage social media to reweave the social fabric and remind us of what connects us rather than divides us. Simon shares his thoughts further. [30:40] Much of today's capitalism transpires through the internet. Jim asks Simon about his thoughts on social media companies' influence on commerce. [35:45] Humanity is staring itself in the mirror right now and it's got two versions of reality right now. Simon talks about what they are. [34:40] Jan also asks Simon which brands he thinks are doing things right that others can model from. [37:20] Simon talks about the new generation of entrepreneurs that are coming through and how that makes him optimistic about the future. He shares some examples. [39:35] Jim asks Simon what story comes to his mind that helps us get a better lens on leadership. [44:15] The luxury of thinking about how to fix our future is scarce. Simon shares how we can best create a better future. [46:20] Listener Challenge: 1. Trust your abilities as a leader. 2. Define your company purpose. 3. Work with your team. Quotable Quotes "There was no strategic plan in place, I just happen to be somebody who's been lucky enough to have an experience on the power of storytelling." "I do think it's a constant of human nature that people would play at it or pay lip service to something but there is nowhere to hide now; you're gonna be exposed by your customers, you're gonna be exposed by your employees, you're gonna be exposed by your investors." "Capitalism can remain constant but how it shows up can evolve and that's peculiar to the circumstances we're in." "Companies and brands cannot survive in societies that fail." "It just means that we've got to create the synergies and compounding effect between all these individual efforts and companies so that we can meet these challenges with equal force because it is all of our actions that got us into this mess in the first place." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Simonmainwaring.com Simon on LinkedIn Simon on Twitter Grab Simon's book: We First: How Brands and Consumers Use Social Media to Build a Better World

Your hosts of The Leadership Podcast look back on 300 episodes in 6 years! The tagline is "We Study Leaders," and Jim and Jan share what they've learned from the array of amazing guests. Listen in to learn the number one trait all the guests share; hear what they've learned about human nature, teams, tribalism, and how music seems to be a thing many leaders leverage as inspiration. Also, don't miss their take on the human aspect of many leaders' stories. Lastly, Jim and Jan share their gratitude for your listenership! Key Takeaways [1:55] Jim and Jan recall the days when they first started the podcast. [3:35] Jan shares his conversation with Preston Pysh and how that got him into podcasting. [5:30] As an interviewer, you get better over time. Jan shares what he has learned over time. [6:10] They look through the inventory of guests that they've interviewed on the show. [8:45] Jan talks about what happens before and after every recording. [10:50 ] Jim shares what he learned about himself through the six years of this show. [12:45] Jim talks about letting people finish, an important lesson he learned from Jen Waldman. [14:25] Jan shares what he has learned from Jim throughout the years. [15:20] Jim and Jan have a mantra for working with other people. They share the three criteria they have to meet. [18:00] Everyone's message is different, and Jim shares what he hopes the listeners won't get from them. [21:00] Jim is always curious about their guest's stories but more than that, it's the great storytellers that made an impact on him. [24:05] For most of their guests, they've focused on the human side of leadership; and Jan shares what he has commonly observed from the majority of them. [25:30] Jim has noticed some interesting patterns from those who are retiring vs. the ones who were younger. [27:00] Major milestones in our lives help prepare us for what we are meant to do in the future. [28:10] There is a gift in struggle and you will never "get there," because life will always be a journey. [29:20] In the big scheme of things, it's not about you. Jan shares what some leaders had figured out way sooner than others. [30:00] Jim shares they don't track statistics of their show. They are just grateful that people are listening and finding value in their conversations. [31:20] Jim closes the episode with a quote from Charles Darwin. Quotable Quotes "You and I were so obsessed about making sure the show went out every week and perfectly. I just remembered feeling this pressure to do a good job." — [2:20] "Back then, I wasn't listening to podcasts. I like to read and I thought 'I don't know about this,' and then he said, 'You know this is a great excuse to meet really interesting people.'" — [4:35] "Not to be morbid, but we've had some guests who have passed away. And I'm so glad that we had an opportunity to speak with them and their story and the things that were important and dear to them were captured." — [7:40] "Understanding people more deeply and just getting a window into that is so interesting, fascinating, and honestly, fun." — [9:10] "To work with other people, they have to meet three criteria: They have to be likable, we have to respect them, and we have to trust them." — [15:20] Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com