The Leadership Podcast

Mark Crowley's newest book is The Power of Employee Well-Being: Move Beyond Engagement to Build Flourishing Teams. For more than a decade, organizations have chased employee engagement - through surveys, gamification, perks, and wellness apps - yet the results haven't improved. Gallup now reports engagement at a ten-year low. Mark was one of the early voices questioning the engagement movement, and in this conversation he explains why the model itself is flawed. We talk about what leaders have been measuring incorrectly, what employee well-being actually means, and why the strongest predictor of team performance isn't compensation, perks, or pressure to produce. It's belonging. If you're seeing burnout, quiet disengagement, or people simply going through the motions, this conversation offers a different lens on leadership—and practical insights you can start applying immediately. Find episode 504 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Mark Crowley on Why Your Team Is Still Disengaged https://bit.ly/TLP-504 Key Takeaways [03:04] Mark explains why employee engagement flatlined. [08:09] Mark draws the line: personal well-being is on you, but how your people perform at work is almost entirely on the leader. [12:08] Mark defines employee well-being, and why wellness apps and free yoga are just band-aids. [15:26] Mark reveals the number one driver of well-being: belonging. [18:36] Mark on hybrid work: packed Zoom calendars are theater. Judge people on outcomes, not optics. [24:22] Mark pushes back on the work ethic debate, and calls out companies playing both sides of the hybrid fence. [32:59] Mark shares the story of his top performer who turned down bigger offers — for one reason her boss never expected. [38:16] Mark's fix for micromanagement: weekly individual check-ins that solve problems before they spiral. [41:30] Mark's closing insight: 95% of human behavior is driven by emotion. Stop asking what people think — ask how they feel. [43:13] And remember..."Well-being is attained little by little, and nevertheless is no little thing itself." - Citium Zeno Quotable Quotes "Once people negotiate their compensation, pay stops being a day-to-day motivator. You've got to figure out the other four drivers." "Wellness is not well-being. A free yoga class is a band-aid." "The number one driver of well-being is belonging — and most leaders never thought that was their job." "If people are feeling supported, trusted, growing, and appreciated — they will naturally reciprocate and produce at levels most leaders have never seen." "We've been misaligned to human nature. That's why engagement never worked." "Nobody can thrive without connection. The highest performing teams are the ones where everybody has each other's back." "The tighter people are, the more people feel like they can be who they are — that's the greatest driver of well-being." "Ask people how they feel — not what they think. That's where the real answer is." "Up to 95% of human behavior is driven by feelings and emotions. That's not soft, that's science." "People pour their heart into surveys and nothing ever gets done." "HR should be the advocates for people — not the C-suite's executioner." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Mark Crowley Website | markccrowley.com Mark Crowley Podcast | markccrowley.com/podcasts Mark Crowley X | @MarkCCrowley Lead From The Heart Facebook Page | facebook.com/LeadFromTheHeart Mark Crowley LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/markccrowley

Muriel M. Wilkins is the founder and CEO of Paravis Partners, host of the HBR podcast, Coaching Real Leaders, and author of "Leadership Unblocked: Break Through the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential." Muriel makes the case that lasting leadership change doesn't come from better tactics. It comes from changing the hidden assumptions driving those tactics in the first place. Drawing on research with over 300 coaching clients, Muriel introduces seven hidden blockers—simple, pervasive beliefs that quietly sabotage even the most capable leaders. She explains why high performers are especially vulnerable, why action bias becomes a liability at the top, and what "doing the inner work" actually looks like when you're in the thick of real pressure and expectations. This is one of the most practically grounded conversations we've had on self-awareness, sustainable change, and what it really takes to lead at the next level. Watch this Episode on YouTube | Muriel M. Wilkins on 7 Hidden Beliefs That Sabotage Leaders (And How to Break Them) https://bit.ly/TLP-503 Key Takeaways [03:07] Muriel explains why "is it them or is it me?" is the wrong question—and what to ask instead. [04:57] The assumptions layer of the VABES framework: why changing behavior without changing the belief beneath it never sticks. [07:09] The seven hidden blockers outlined: I need to be involved. I need it done now. I know I'm right. I can't make a mistake. If I can do it, so can you. I can't say no. I don't belong here. [09:09] Why "I need to be involved" is the #1 blocker for leaders trying to scale up—and how it keeps them stuck in the weeds at exactly the wrong moment. [11:26] How action-orientation—a strength that builds careers—becomes a liability when it skips the half of the equation that makes change sustainable. [13:43] Muriel argues that Western culture rewards controlling the external — questioning the internal was never part of the deal. [18:45] What to do when a hidden blocker gets surfaced: why these beliefs aren't the enemy, and the three-step approach to working with them rather than against them. [22:56] Muriel challenges the idea of fixed personality, it's mostly learned beliefs, and adults can choose to examine them. [27:17] Muriel reveals that in 22 years of coaching, not one client has ever called asking to work on their beliefs — the readiness has to come first. [29:15] What "doing the inner work" actually looks like inside a real coaching conversation—under pressure, with no time to think. [33:14] Muriel's origin story: the client results that wouldn't stick, the personal walls she kept hitting, and the Michael Singer quote that reframed everything. [37:11] Muriel admits she found herself in all seven blockers while writing the book, not just the one or two she expected. [41:24] The pro tip: two words. Be curious. Not about others—about what you're thinking, and whether it's aligned with where you want to go. [43:12] And remember..."It's not the events of our lives that shape us, but our beliefs as to what those events mean." — Tony Robbin Quotable Quotes "You have to go back and question the assumptions that went into the model. You didn't go in and rejigger the model itself." "We spend so much time trying to make everything on the outside okay so that we can feel okay on the inside." — Michael Singer, cited by Muriel "It's not about getting rid of them. It's about understanding and being strategic and having choice around when you use them." "It is not the events of our lives that shape us, but our beliefs as to what those events mean." "What you think your personality is not really your personality. Your personality is just a bunch of learned behaviors that came out of learned beliefs." "You have a portfolio of beliefs, and you should be able to tap into any of them at any given time." "They're not the enemy. They're just not the friend that you want to have at that given moment." "In order to get results on the outside, you've got to make sure that the inside is also aligned." "Do you want to make the change before something else forces you to do it, or do you want to just wait?" "What am I thinking about myself, about the other, about the situation — and is it helping me or is it not?" These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Muriel M. Wilkins Website | murielwilkins.com HBR podcast Coaching Real Leaders | www.murielwilkins.com/podcast-coaching-real-leaders Twitter | @murielmwilkins Facebook | www.facebook.com/coachingrealleaders LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/murielwilkins Instagram | @coachmurielwilkins

Mark Morgenfruh is the President and CEO of GetHRready and author of "Never Fire Anyone: A Leader's Guide on how to Lead People not Companies." He holds a Master of Human Resource Management from Rutgers University and built his no-nonsense, trust-first philosophy from the ground up. In this episode, Mark dismantles the two most common leadership failures he calls "keyboard cowboys" (leading from behind a screen) and "happy talk" (avoiding the real conversation until it's too late). He makes the case that trust isn't built through programs or policies — it's built by being a normal human being when you walk through the door. Mark introduces his values-based leadership and disciplinary model — an alternative to PIPs and terminations. He explains why firing someone is more often a reflection of a bad hire or promotion decision than a performance problem. He also challenges HR to stop being the policy police and start being an enabler of real relationships between leaders and their people. If you've ever avoided a hard conversation, put someone on a PIP, or wondered why your culture feels transactional — this episode is for you. Watch this Episode on YouTube | Mark Morgenfruh on Never Fire Anyone https://bit.ly/TLP-502 Key Takeaways [02:47] Mark explains why leaders undermine trust — even with good intentions — by hiding behind hierarchy instead of being human. [04:11] Mark expands into his two failure modes: keyboard cowboys who lead from behind a screen, and happy talk that avoids the real conversation. [07:22] Mark defines trust-based leadership — it's not the carrot, not the stick. It's simply being a normal person when you walk through the door. [14:07] Mark argues PIPs almost never work and terminations reflect a hiring failure. He offers a values-based model that moves people into roles where they can succeed. [16:24] Mark introduces a core framework from his book: employees should create more value than they consume. [19:26] Mark points out that most companies dismiss exit interviews instead of mining them for honest feedback. [20:58] Mark shows why strong relationships let you catch the unraveling early, and why waiting until the fifth or sixth waypoint is too late. [29:49] Mark reframes HR's real role — not a policy manual, not a union shop, but an enabling function that coaches people back into direct relationships. [35:08] Mark challenges companies to engage talent wherever they are, and tells leaders of remote teams exactly what they're doing wrong. [39:58] Mark closes with a clear message: kill happy talk, lead with candor, and act with urgency before the spiral starts. [42:25] And remember..."To be trusted is a greater compliment than being loved." — George MacDonald Quotable Quotes "Stop the happy talk. Stuff is going south — let's talk about what's going south and how we fix it." "A termination is a more severe reflection on the hiring or promotion decision than it is on the employee." "Trust comes from being normal. Just having a conversation with people." "You're never going to get in trouble for doing more than you have to do for a person. Period. End of story." "There's some veil that we put on when we walk through that door that is killing us in our work relationships." "You don't call when you just need something. You call just to see how they're doing." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Mark Morgenfruh Website | www.neverfireanyone.com Mark Morgenfruh LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/markmorgenfruh TLP039: Humanizing Our Workplaces with Liz Ryan

Steve Taplin is the CEO of Sonatafy Technology, author of "Fail Hard, Win Big: 30 Ventures | 20 Failures | 10 Wins," and host of the Software Leaders Uncensored podcast. In this conversation, Steve reveals the partnership that almost destroyed him but vindicated him five years later; why he walked out of a meeting with a Fortune 500 CIO; and the discipline that saved his sanity. Steve also shares the 24-hour rule for processing failure to help his teams fail without breaking trust or morale. Steve breaks down the practice that taught him when to fight and when to quit. If you've ever been paralyzed by the fear of failure—or worse, burned by a partnership you trusted—this episode will rewire how you think about risk, resilience, and what it actually takes to bounce back. Find episode 501 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Steve Taplin on Failure as Fuel: When to push through and when to quit https://bit.ly/TLP-501 Key Takeaways [04:16] Steve shares his most painful failure-turned-win: a $2 million deal his partner closed that he walked away from—five years later, both the partner and sponsor were indicted for fraud. [07:59] Steve drops the hard truth: "Nobody cares about your business. They care about the problem it solves." [09:43] Steve's philosophy on raising money: "Raising money is a responsibility—your business has to be ready for it." [11:15] Steve recalls his "oh sh*t" moment at IBM: he didn't know the difference between sales and marketing after starting his first company. [13:36] Steve credits journaling as his resilience tool and describes rehearsing failure scenarios with his team to build organizational resilience. [18:50] Steve defines earning potential: "Your ability to make money is your ability to solve more challenges than everybody else." [21:52] Steve recounts going back to IBM as VP of Sales and selling over $1 billion in contracts. [27:03] Steve explains when to quit and the discipline that made financial clarity possible. [32:00] Steve's message to young people: "You don't have a choice—the world is unforgiving. You either learn from failure or you don't survive." [35:04] And remember..."Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt Quotable Quotes "Integrity is not optional, especially when you're raising money—it's foundational." "Nobody cares about your business. They care about the problem it solves." "You get 24 hours to be upset. Then shake it off and figure out a solution." "Success is not just money—it's having the freedom to operate your business AND great relationships with your family." "Your ability to make money is your ability to solve more challenges than everybody else." "If you don't take risks, you can't keep accelerating your career." "Good, bad, or indifferent, you learn more from failures than you do successes." "You can't grow without failing." "Use your failures as fuel and learning experiences." "You got to know how to run businesses. You got to know how to sell if you want to take control of your life." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Steve Taplin LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/stevetaplin Sonatafy Technology Website | www.sonatafy.com Software Leaders Uncensored YouTube | www.youtube.com/@SoftwareLeadersUncensored Software Leaders Uncensored Podcast | softwareleadersuncensored.com

Work–life balance sounds responsible. Admiral William (Bill) McRaven thinks it's misleading at best—and often harmful. In our special 500th episode of The Leadership Podcast, McRaven strips away the language leaders hide behind and replaces it with judgment, clarity, and responsibility. Instead of chasing balance, he offers a far more useful distinction: knowing which commitments are crystal balls and which are rubber balls. Some things can be dropped and recovered. Others, once broken, are gone for good. Leadership starts with knowing the difference. He's equally direct about what hasn't changed. Despite endless debate about generations, McRaven argues that the fundamentals remain stubbornly constant. People still respond to integrity. They still want leaders who work hard, stay humble, and put service ahead of ego—whether they're wearing a uniform, sitting in a classroom, or working in a corporate office. McRaven also calls out one of the most common leadership evasions: "empowerment" without clarity. Trusting people doesn't mean leaving them guessing. When expectations are vague, accountability collapses. He explains the real difference between micromanaging and leading—making sure everyone understands what good actually looks like. One of the most enduring lessons in the conversation comes from a command master chief who gave him a four-part standard that guided his entire career: Learn the business Be a good teammate Be a good person Work harder than everyone else No slogans. No shortcuts. He also reflects on the quiet dangers of overconfidence—how believing your plan is airtight can blind you to obvious risks—and why experienced advisors matter more than raw intelligence. This episode is a reminder that leadership isn't about trends or terminology. It's about judgment, responsibility, and doing the hard, unglamorous things well—consistently, and without excuses. Find episode 500 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Admiral Bill McRaven on The Leadership Myths We Keep Getting Wrong https://bit.ly/TLP-500 Key Takeaways [04:11] McRaven reveals he's a journalism major who writes poetry. [05:00] McRaven explains pressure reveals who leaders really are versus who they thought they'd be. [07:06] McRaven discusses how perfectionist leaders struggle when plans fail while adaptable "C students" often outperform. [09:06] McRaven emphasizes humility and surrounding yourself with people who'll tell you when your plan is stupid. [12:43] McRaven explains you never have perfect clarity, so rely on experienced team members who've seen similar situations. [14:44] McRaven explains why every great flag officer he knows is steeped in history and human context. [18:30] McRaven shares the command master chief's formula: learn the business, be a good teammate, be a good person, work hard. [21:58] McRaven dismantles the myth that millennials need different leadership—timeless fundamentals work across all generations. [24:11] McRaven emphasizes universal principles: be polite, be gracious, don't be the center of attention. [27:18] McRaven admits his Iraq failures with sleep and Red Bulls, then shares the lesson: six hours sleep, eat right, never look stressed. [31:33] McRaven explains combat tours leave little reading time, but staff tours are when leaders prepare by studying. [34:05] McRaven shares his biggest reversal: he preached "no work-life balance" until learning the crystal ball analogy. [41:07] McRaven explains technology always changes but leadership fundamentals stay constant: understand people and resources. [44:11] McRaven dismantles "empowerment"—leaders must first set clear expectations before backing off. [49:21] And remember..."Let no one ever say we dream too small" - Father John Jenkins Quotable Quotes "Pressure is what really shows who we are. When you do it repeatedly, you begin to overcome a lot of those shortfalls and you become a better leader." "You better have a little swagger... But don't ever mistake swagger and confidence. If you aren't humble again, that swagger will turn into hubris, and that will get you into trouble." "Hard work makes up for a lot of shortfalls. You don't have to be talented, you don't have to be overly smart, you don't have to do anything. You just have to work hard." "Some of those balls are crystal balls. And if you drop the crystal balls, they're going to shatter and you're never going to be able to pick them up again. You need to know the difference between the rubber balls and the crystal balls." "Micromanagement is not a dirty word. You don't want to spend your whole time micromanaging, but you have to make sure the rank and file that are working for you know what your expectations are." "If you think that you are the smartest man or woman in the room, if you think that your plan is going to outpace the enemies, or if you just think as a corporate leader that you have figured out all the ins and outs of the issue you're dealing with, you're going to be humbled pretty quickly." "The fundamentals of leadership did not change. The faculty, the students, the university presidents, the people I worked for, they expected me to be a good leader. I knew how to lead." "If you want to be good at what you do, there is no work-life balance. The fact of the matter is, something's going to have to be sacrificed because if you want to be good at what you do, you are going to have to come in early, you are going to have to work hard, you're going to miss anniversaries." "Your responsibility as a leader is to make sure the men and women working for you are the best they can be... You have to have trained them well, you provided them the resources." "Leadership is rarely a solo effort. It's a team sport. And you better have a good team surrounding you so you can find out where your shortfalls are and make sure, again, you don't walk into a minefield." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com William H. McRaven Instagram | @williamh.mcraven

Joe Pine, renowned author of The Experience Economy and The Transformation Economy, explains why the market is ready for transformations now. He outlines the four spheres of transformation and why businesses should charge for outcomes, not inputs. Short takes cover commitment and guiders, encapsulation (preparation, reflection, integration), and how transformation-minded pricing and AI augmentation reshape value.

Oli Raison, co-founder of Safarini Leadership, designs immersive leadership expeditions in Kenya that combine cultural exchange with Samburu elders, wilderness trekking, and deep reflective coaching. In this conversation, Oli challenges one of leadership's most entrenched assumptions: that resilience is about individual grit and mental toughness. Drawing on the Samburu concept of naboisho—interdependence—he shows how real resilience is built through collective support, not solo endurance. He also names the single most important question leaders need to ask when entering any new culture or organization: What assumptions am I making? The catch? Most assumptions are invisible to us because they feel like "normal." Oli also explores why many wilderness and offsite leadership experiences fail to create lasting change, and shares his solution: a three-phase transformation framework—preparation, immersion, and integration—shaped by the work of past podcast guest, Joe Pine. This episode is an invitation to question your cultural defaults, rebuild genuine human connection, and develop a healthier relationship with time—so your leadership, and your team's resilience, can actually endure. Find episode 498 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Oli Raison on Why Grit Isn't Enough: Rethinking Resilience in Leadership https://bit.ly/TLP-498 Key Takeaways [04:12] Oli says the leadership assumption consistently dismantled his resilience—the Samburu are resilient through interdependence called "naboisho," not grit. [07:00] Oli identifies profound learning as the importance of having a shared sense of purpose and a very strong shared set of values. [08:31] Oli responds that people have very different expectations of leadership in different cultures around the world. [10:11] Oli reveals the Samburu doesn't have words for anxiety or depression and you'll certainly never meet somebody who knows somebody who committed suicide. Oli notes loneliness is now as damaging for your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. [12:00] Oli responds I think too much comfort can be a bad thing and people get discombobulated easily if things don't go quite to plan. [14:35] Oli answers the critical question leaders should ask: what assumptions am I making? Because we don't realize we're making assumptions. [17:07] Oli explains African societies have a fundamentally different understanding of time where there's always enough time. [20:10] Oli explains the Samburu are very spiritual people connected with their ancestors and you're also connected with your descendants. [22:30] Oli says mindset adjustment happens organically from just being offline during 10-day expeditions with six days of camel-supported trekking. [24:53] Oli describes their three-phase structure: preparation, immersion, and integration with coaching sessions at two, four, and six weeks after. [29:20] Oli responds his long-term impact is about flourishing, particularly helping men dealing with anxiety, depression, and suicidality. [31:43] Oli states his aspiration: how can we create workplaces, organizations and teams that flourish? Because that's when people really do their best work. [33:45] Jan shares his realization about keeping fingers on the keyboard versus closing the laptop because the most important thing is that person in front of you. [35:56] And remember..."One way to get the most out of life is to look upon it as an adventure." - William Feather Quotable Quotes "The Samburu, what makes them so resilient is this concept of interdependence, this reliance, this collective reliance on one another...if my cattle get wiped out because of a really challenging drought, I know that my neighbors are going to step in and they're going to give me some of their cattle." "Naboisho is a word in their language which kind of roughly translates to coming together or unity. And they often say things like 'we are because they are,' that we are all sort of in this together." "This is a society that doesn't have words for anxiety or depression. And you'll certainly never meet somebody who knows somebody who committed suicide...loneliness is now as damaging for your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day." "In the west, we think of time as a commodity. We think of time as something that can be saved, it can be wasted, it can be lost. And as a result of that, I feel that time is the master of us and we are not the master of time." "The Samburu always say there's always enough time because they don't think of time as this continuous thing...time occurs when events happen, it's more relational and it's more eventful." "What assumptions am I making? And this is tricky, right, because a lot of the time we don't realize we're making assumptions." "We don't need to be experts, but we do need to be detectives...what assumptions am I making that might be getting in my way?" "All of this technology is actually causing our brains to operate on a frequency that is not conducive with creative thought at all. And by being in nature, just that alone creates an environment for people to have some really powerful insights." "I think one of the things that people come away with is I really need to take more time out to just contemplate and to think. You know, think about your business, think about your life. We don't take time to think anymore. We're just reacting." "This obsession with hyper productivity is actually just, again, it's all distraction, you know, it's taking us away from just being with ourselves in the moment or being with somebody else." "In 1990, the average man had five close friends and now he has one...every minute that we spend on a device, on a phone, on a laptop, thinking that we're connecting is a minute that we're not spending really connecting with somebody." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Oli Raison LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/oli-raison-1107aa11/ Safarini Leadership Website | www.safarinileadership.com Safarini Leadership LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/company/safarini-leadership Safarini Leadership Instagram | @safarinileadership

Geoff Woods, founder of AI Leadership and author of The AI Driven Leader, teaches leaders to use AI as a thinking partner. He explains the CRIT framework (Context, Role, Interview, Task). He shows how to make AI ask the right questions, collapse months of work into minutes, and focus on the 20% that drives most impact.

Mark van Rijmenam is a futurist, award-winning keynote speaker globally ranked as number one in his field. Salesforce recognizes him as a leading voice in AI. His latest book, Now What: How to Ride the Tsunami of Change, is available now, and he's the founder of FutureWise. In this episode, Mark challenges the assumption that faster change requires faster action. He argues that organizations moving at breakneck speed with AI and emerging technologies often skip the critical step: pausing to think about consequences. Mark introduces his three E's framework—educate, experiment, execute—as a systematic approach for leaders navigating exponential technological convergence. He emphasizes that while root knowledge becomes obsolete, skills like adaptability, strategic foresight, digital literacy, and ethical grounding become essential for building resilience in uncertain futures. In this episode, you'll discover how to lead through exponential change without losing your humanity, your judgment, or your competitive edge. Find episode 496 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Mark van Rijmenam on Why Faster Change Doesn't Mean Faster Action https://bit.ly/TLP-496 Key Takeaways [02:14] Mark circumnavigated Australia on bicycle in 100 days, raising $25,000 for Dutch children's cancer fund. [04:19] Mark said the most important starting point is becoming aware and educating yourself on all emerging technologies, not just AI. [08:19] Mark explained we discover AI rather than invent it, so we need to slow down and think instead of rushing forward. [14:46] Mark's digital twin can be WhatsApp'd 24/7 in 29 languages to answer deeper questions about his book. [16:17] Mark hopes in 10 years leaders will ask "how could we have been so stupid to move so fast?" [19:42] Mark recommends the three E's framework: educate, experiment, then execute what works best. [21:52] Mark insists leaders must understand technology implications or they'll dismiss great ideas they don't understand. [25:15] Mark said we need authentic human leaders because a machine-run society would be efficient but unpleasant. [29:51] Mark hopes technology convergence will foster humility and help us live in tandem with nature. [36:58] Mark said focus on analytical skills, adaptability, foresight, digital literacy, ethics, creativity, and collaboration. [39:07] And remember..."Our intuition about the future is linear. But the reality of information technology is exponential, and that makes a profound difference. If I take 30 steps linearly, I get to 30. If I take 30 steps exponentially, I get to a billion." - Ray Kurzweil Quotable Quotes "Leadership today in this fast changing world is different from leadership yesterday. The world of yesterday is no longer." "We don't invent AI, we discover AI. And that is a completely different perspective that has a big effect on everything that we do." "A lot of the big tech companies don't even understand the LLMs that they're building. They don't understand how they operate, which is really problematic." "Critical thinking is under siege because of these large language models, but we still need to think ourselves." "It's a bit of a paradox. You think you need to move faster and faster because the world is changing faster and faster. But you also need to build in moments to pause and reflect." "It's nice to be the first to market, but often it also comes with all the R&D and all the problems. Sitting back a little bit longer will help you move faster in the end." "Static knowledge is sort of dead. We need to have dynamic interactions." "AI and capitalism is a perfect storm where they really feed into each other." "If we don't educate people how to leverage AI, how to deal with AI, they might think it cares about you." "If we're going to end up in a society that's run by machines, it will be a very not pleasant society to live in." "We are social animals. We need that social interaction." "History doesn't repeat itself, but it certainly rhymes." "Continually running faster and faster to grab more and more money might not be the best solution in the world where we built extremely powerful tools." "Root knowledge is sort of becoming out of date because you can just look up with the click of a button." "You're not going to have one career anymore. You're going to have multiple careers in your lifetime and potentially even have multiple careers at the same time." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Mark van Rijmenam website | www.thedigitalspeaker.com Mark van Rijmenam X | @vanrijmenam Mark van Rijmenam LinkedIn | http://linkedin.com/in/markvanrijmenam

Patrick Veroneau is CEO of Emery Leadership Group and author of The Leadership Bridge: How to engage your employees and drive organizational excellence and The Missing Piece: What Great Teams Do That Others Overlook. In this episode, Patrick explains why organizations' increasing focus on accountability systems over the past five years has coincided with employee engagement hitting a 10-year low. He reveals the accountability paradox: the harder you push for accountability, the further you get from ownership. Patrick discusses why leaders fall short in closing the gap between intention and impact—we intellectually understand leadership concepts, but fail to apply them consistently. Patrick explains the sequence that moves teams from compliance to genuine commitment (support → celebrate → own), reveals the invisible habit great teams practice (recognizing progress along the journey, not just outcomes). If you're tired of accountability systems that aren't working and want to build real ownership on your team, this episode will change how you lead. Find episode 495 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Patrick Veroneau on The Accountability Paradox https://bit.ly/TLP-495 Key Takeaways [02:57] Patrick said growing up in a large family made him more intuitive because he was always around older people having adult conversations. [04:43] Patrick explained that leaders fall short because they intellectually understand concepts but don't apply them consistently or model the behaviors they expect. [06:58] Patrick shared that social exclusion triggers the same brain response as physical pain, and unexpected recognition spikes dopamine while unrecognized effort decreases it. [11:47] Patrick revealed the accountability paradox: average teams focus on accountability first, but great teams support and celebrate first to create ownership. [14:25] Patrick shared Stephen Covey's insight that leaders need to trust other people first, not wait for others to trust them. [17:32] Patrick said the invisible habit of great teams is celebrating progress along the way, not just the final outcome. [21:34] Patrick said companies that aren't flexible on remote work will be at a disadvantage, but connection must be intentional and meaningful. [26:49] Patrick shared that Rear Admiral Cutler Dawson's success came from "walking the deck plates"—connecting with people at all levels, not his authority. [33:24] And remember..."Leadership is not about a title or a designation. It's about impact, influence and inspiration. Impact involves getting results, influence is about spreading the passion you have for your work, and you have to inspire teammates and customers." - Robin S. Sharma Quotable Quotes "Don't settle for accountability. It's the low bar. Shoot for ownership." "To be on a great team, you have to first commit to being a great teammate." "Average organizations focus on accountability first. Great teams support and celebrate first, then create ownership." "We need to trust other people first. You need to give before you get." "When people feel they should be recognized and aren't, their dopamine levels go down. That's what we experience as disengagement." "Accountability is included in ownership. But not the reverse." "Humility is the circuit breaker on overconfidence." "Walking the deck plates—connecting with people at all levels. We've overcomplicated what it means to lead." "If you don't commit first to being a great teammate, you absolutely won't be part of a great team because you're the weakest link." "Look for work, look for stuff to do, look where you can help." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Emery Leadership Group Website | www.emeryleadershipgroup.com Emery Leadership Group Facebook | www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063653920372 Patrick Veroneau LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-veroneau Patrick Veroneau Instagram | @patrickveroneau