Life After Ministry

There’s a kind of grief that doesn’t come with a clear loss. No funeral. No ending. Just the quiet ache of something that never came to be. For many in ministry, this kind of grief goes unnamed and unaddressed. Drew Hensley calls it “invisible grief.” It’s the pain of unrealized hopes, whether that’s infertility, singleness, unmet expectations, or a future you were certain God was leading you toward.  And because it’s unseen, it often gets buried under responsibility, performance, and the pressure to keep showing up. In this conversation, Drew shares his personal journey through infertility while pastoring, the unhealthy ways he coped, and the turning point that led him toward honesty, lament, and healing.  This episode offers a grounded, honest look at how to carry grief without losing your faith. Key Takeaways Invisible grief is the pain of what has never been and may never be Ministry leaders often carry grief privately while serving others publicly Avoiding grief doesn’t silence it. It reshapes how it shows up Lament is a necessary spiritual practice, not a lack of faith Joy and grief are not opposites. They can coexist Healing begins with honesty, first with God, then with others The church grows stronger when it learns to sit with people in unresolved pain Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction to Invisible Grief 02:00 – Defining grief that no one sees 05:00 – Drew’s infertility story begins 08:30 – The weight of grief in ministry leadership 12:00 – Coping, numbing, and emotional exhaustion 17:30 – The turning point: honesty with God 20:30 – Why joy and grief are not opposites 26:30 – A framework: lay down, pick up, move forward 30:00 – Adoption, redemption, and unresolved tension 33:00 – Is the church good at grief? 37:00 – Final reflections on trust and faith If you’re navigating a difficult transition, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call, support leaders in transition, or find guidance for what’s next. You can explore Drew Hensley’s book Invisible Grief wherever books are sold. Take the next step toward honest healing and wise transition today.

Many ministry leaders begin their journey with a genuine desire to serve. But somewhere along the way, leadership can quietly become something else.  Platforms grow. Expectations rise. Applause becomes affirmation. And before long, influence begins to shape identity. Eric Reid spent years traveling the world teaching leadership alongside John Maxwell. From the outside, it looked like success. But internally, Eric began to notice a troubling pattern.  Leadership had become a performance, a way to earn approval rather than simply serve people. In this conversation with Matt Davis, Eric reflects on the personal awakening that led him to write Leadership Was Never My Calling.  Together they unpack the deep tensions many leaders carry: the pull toward platform, the pressure to perform, and the quiet invitation of Jesus to step down the ladder and serve with humility. Key Takeaways Leadership can easily become a hiding place for insecurity and identity wounds • Applause and affirmation can become addictive forms of validation • Performance and presence are very different ways of leading • Many leaders carry unresolved father wounds that shape how they pursue influence • Small, unseen acts of faithfulness often carry the greatest kingdom impact • True Christlike leadership begins at the bottom of the ladder, not the top • Freedom comes when leaders shift from building influence to serving people Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introducing Eric Reid and the question of calling 02:00 – The origin of the book Leadership Was Never My Calling 05:20 – Performance versus presence in ministry leadership 08:30 – The addiction to applause and approval 11:20 – Father wounds and identity in leadership 16:00 – Navigating significance while remaining faithful 19:50 – The power of small, unseen acts of service 23:20 – Surrendering career outcomes to God 26:40 – When leaders feel their best years are behind them 28:30 – Why stepping down the ladder leads to freedom Learn More If you’re navigating a ministry transition or wrestling with what comes next, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to explore confidential coaching and support. You can also learn more about Eric Reid and his upcoming book at https://lwnc.net.

What happens when a pastor steps away after decades of leading a church? Many leaders imagine retirement will bring peace and freedom.  But for pastors, the transition often carries unexpected weight. The loss of identity, the quiet grief of leaving a community, and the challenge of rediscovering purpose can make the next season far more complicated than anticipated. After serving the same church for 35 years, Doug Bullock faced this reality firsthand. What began as a thoughtful transition into retirement turned into a deeper journey through loss, identity, and calling.  In the process, he discovered that many pastors are unprepared for the emotional and spiritual questions that follow the end of pastoral leadership. In this conversation, Doug shares what surprised him most after stepping away from ministry and why retiring pastors still have a crucial role in strengthening the church.  Together they explore how pastors can process loss, redeem past pain, and find renewed purpose beyond the pulpit. Key Takeaways Retirement from ministry often includes unexpected grief and identity loss • Many pastors are unprepared for the emotional impact of stepping away • Feelings of obscurity after decades of leadership can be surprisingly difficult • Retired pastors still carry valuable wisdom that can benefit younger leaders • Churches rarely have a clear vision for how retired pastors can remain involved • Processing pain and past failures is essential for healthy transition • Flourishing after ministry means continuing to walk with Christ and serve faithfully in new ways Chapter Markers  00:00 – Meeting Doug Bullock and his book New Dawn 01:05 – Recognizing when it was time to step away from pastoral leadership 03:59 – Transitioning out of ministry and returning to school 06:00 – Discovering the deeper questions of pastoral retirement 08:07 – The emotional struggles pastors face after stepping down 11:03 – The experience of becoming unknown after years of leadership 13:41 – The key questions pastors must wrestle with in retirement 23:26 – Why many retired pastors struggle attending church 28:13 – The tension between older and younger pastoral generations 32:28 – The coming wave of pastoral retirements 34:03 – What it means to truly flourish in retirement 36:04 – Advice for pastors preparing to step away from ministry 38:37 – Redeeming past pain and helping the next generation If you’re navigating a ministry transition or preparing for what comes next, visit ministrytransitions.com to find guidance, resources, or schedule a confidential conversation.  You can also explore Doug Bullock’s book New Dawn: Helping Pastors Flourish in Retirement on Amazon or connect with him directly at DTS844@gmail.com.

What happens when the calling that once defined you no longer feels sustainable? When the work you love begins to cost you more than you can carry?  For many ministry leaders, the hardest battles are not theological. They are personal. Emotional. Quiet. And often fought alone. In this episode, Matt Davis sits down with Don Ross, former pastor and founder of Manhood Tribes, to talk about why so many men struggle in silence, especially during seasons of ministry transition.  After two decades in large evangelical church leadership, Don stepped away - not because he stopped loving Jesus, but because the system was breaking him.  What followed was a difficult transition marked by uncertainty, financial pressure, and identity questions that many ministry leaders quietly face. This conversation pulls back the curtain on isolation, addiction, shame, and the deep need for brotherhood.  If you are navigating transition, questioning your direction, or responsible for leading others through change, this episode offers both clarity and hope.  No man should have to walk alone. Key Takeaways Ministry leadership can be both deeply fulfilling and profoundly exhausting at the same time. Many church systems unintentionally isolate pastors rather than care for them. Churches often struggle to reach men because they build connection models that don’t align with how men bond. Pornography addiction thrives in isolation and shame, even among pastors. Bringing struggle into the light is the first step toward freedom. Transition seasons destabilize identity, especially around provision and purpose. Intentional, challenge-based brotherhood can anchor men during seasons of uncertainty. Chapter Markers  00:00 – Introduction and framing the conversation about men 01:00 – Don’s ministry journey and transition 06:00 – The celebrity pastor model and systemic pressure 08:00 – Why churches struggle to reach men 16:00 – The five marks of manhood 19:00 – Pornography, shame, and isolation 24:00 – How tribes work differently than typical men’s groups 31:00 – Financial pressure and identity in transition 37:00 – Fulfillment after leaving vocational ministry Ready to take your next step? Visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession. Explore Don’s resources at ManhoodTribes.com and take the quiz at HowManlyAreYou.com. If this episode helped you, consider donating to support leaders navigating transition.

Is there really a difference between ministry and the marketplace? Or have we created a divide that Scripture never intended? In this episode, Curt Swindoll shares insights from 40 years of leadership across nonprofit, church, and for-profit environments.  Having transitioned multiple times - sometimes with a plan, sometimes without - Curt challenges the assumption that ministry is something we leave behind.  Instead, he invites leaders to rethink their posture toward God, especially during seasons of uncertainty. For leaders navigating burnout, succession, or vocational transition, this conversation reframes the journey.  The issue is not whether you are in ministry or business. The deeper issue is whether you are living for God or with Him.  And that distinction changes everything. Key Takeaways There is no sacred-secular divide. God is as present in the marketplace as in the church. Burnout often reveals a “for God” posture that has replaced a “with God” relationship. Transitions are rarely clean; God’s presence is not dependent on clarity. Work is one of the primary places of spiritual formation. Discernment is not about finding one perfect path but learning to journey wisely with God. Succession is less about ending ministry and more about shifting where and how ministry happens. Peace and freedom are often the deeper invitation beneath vocational change. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Is There Really Life After Ministry? 02:30 – Sacred vs. Secular: A False Divide 07:00 – Transitioning Without a Plan 10:00 – Life With God vs. Life For God 15:00 – Burnout and Identity in Ministry 21:00 – The Role of Spiritual Formation and Marriage 24:00 – Moving Between Ministry and Marketplace 29:00 – God at the Door in Seasons of Anxiety 33:00 – Lessons from a Lifetime of Ministry Transitions 43:00 – Succession, Discernment, and “Never Say Never” 50:00 – Practical Resources and Final Encouragement If this conversation stirred something in you - whether you're navigating a leadership transition, discerning succession, or simply longing to experience more of a life with God - there are a few trusted next steps.  For confidential support and guidance through ministry transitions, visit https://ministrytransitions.com.  To explore spiritual formation resources and connect with trained spiritual directors, go to https://graftedlife.org.  And if you're leading an organization and want clarity, traction, and a healthier operating rhythm, learn more about EOS at https://www.eosworldwide.com or connect directly with Curt at https://www.eosworldwide.com/curt-swindoll. Wherever you are in your journey, you don’t have to walk it alone.

What if the biggest lie Christian leaders believe is that ministry only happens inside church walls? When pastors and nonprofit leaders transition into the marketplace, many feel like they’ve stepped out of calling and into something lesser. But that assumption may be the very thing limiting the Church’s influence. In this episode, we talk with Chuck Proudfit about faith at work, succession challenges, leadership continuity, and why Christians must rethink the sacred-secular divide.  This conversation reframes work as worship and challenges leaders to build legacy that outlives them. Key Takeaways Work is not secular space. It is strategic deployment. The sacred-secular divide quietly undermines Christian leadership. Most succession failures begin long before the transition announcement. Boards must proactively ask leaders about their 10-year vision. Continuity requires infrastructure, not just inspiration. Community shapes faith at work more effectively than content alone. Leadership legacy must include both personal and organizational clarity. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction and Chuck’s faith journey 03:15 – Work as worship and the sacred-secular divide 06:44 – Faith in consulting and marketplace leadership 07:33 – Why church transitions struggle 10:13 – Organic ministry in the workplace 13:30 – The birth of At Work On Purpose 16:44 – Spiritual formation through work 19:05 – The Faith at Work Summit and future frontiers 20:43 – Continuity, succession, and leadership legacy 25:15 – Invitation to the Summit If you are navigating a leadership transition, preparing for succession, or reimagining how faith integrates with your everyday work, take your next step today. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation about your transition, explore how faith and work come together at https://atworkonpurpose.org/, and learn more about the global Faith at Work Summit at https://faithatworksummit2026.com/. Whether you are leaving vocational ministry, leading through change, or building what comes next, you do not have to do it alone.

Most ministry leaders expect relief after stepping away. What they don’t expect is the wilderness to begin after the resignation. In this honest conversation, Dustin Kleinschmidt shares how years of crisis leadership, misaligned values, and unresolved grief led to burnout, anxiety, and a deep reckoning with faith.  Rather than rushing toward resolution, Dustin invites leaders to reconsider what the wilderness is actually for. This episode reframes suffering, challenges Christian shortcuts around pain, and offers language for leaders who feel stuck between obedience and disappointment.  If you’ve ever wondered whether you missed God or why healing is taking so long, this conversation meets you right where you are. Key Takeaways Burnout is often the result of long-term erosion, not one failure Healthy systems can’t sustain you in an unhealthy environment The wilderness often begins after the role ends Spiritual bypassing keeps leaders disconnected from their real pain Value misalignment creates invisible but constant friction Healing doesn’t mean closure or clarity God’s presence in the wilderness matters more than getting out of it Chapter Markers 00:00 – Dustin’s ministry journey and early formation 03:30 – Crisis leadership and long-term erosion 06:20 – When sustainability quietly disappears 09:30 – Why good systems still fail in toxic environments 11:20 – Entering the wilderness after resignation 15:20 – Spiritual bypassing and emotional honesty 18:30 – The Exodus, expectations, and disappointment with God 24:00 – Living faithfully without resolution 28:15 – The Wilderness Way: book, workbook, and music If you’re in the wilderness and looking for faithful companions along the way, explore The Wilderness Way and Ministry Transitions. Together, they offer resources to help you live honestly with God in hard seasons and engage Scripture with deeper historical and spiritual clarity. Learn more at https://www.dustinkleinschmidt.com and https://thejewishroad.com.

Stepping away from leadership is rarely just a strategic decision. It’s personal. Emotional. Spiritual. Especially for founders and long-term leaders who have poured their lives into a ministry. In this episode, Jim West reflects on what it meant to hand off leadership of the Barnabas Group, a ministry he helped build and lead for over two decades.  Just weeks after that transition, Jim was diagnosed with cancer, forcing him into a season of surrender he never planned. This conversation explores succession, identity, grief, and trust. It’s an honest look at what happens when God asks you to release what you love, and how unexpected seasons can become some of the most formative and meaningful of your life. Key Takeaways Succession is not an emergency plan. It’s a discipleship issue. Founders often grieve more than they expect when they step away. A ministry continuing without you can be a sign of health, not failure. Forced stillness can protect both leaders and organizations. Identity untethered from role allows for deeper trust in God. Life after ministry can be fuller, not smaller. Transitions require guides, not just decisions. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Jim’s path into the Barnabas Group 03:30 – Recognizing the need for succession 05:20 – Passing the baton and receiving a cancer diagnosis 07:40 – Watching the ministry grow without him 11:50 – Faith, cancer, and spiritual clarity 16:00 – Discovering life and ministry after leadership 27:10 – Advice for leaders facing transition If you or your organization are facing a leadership transition, visit ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential conversation and get support that protects people, preserves purpose, and plans wisely for what’s next.

Most ministry transitions don’t happen suddenly. They happen slowly, quietly, and later than they should.  In this season-ending episode, we reflect on the patterns Ministry Transitions has seen over the past year while walking with pastors, boards, nonprofits, and faith-driven organizations. From delayed conversations to the quiet crisis of succession, this episode names the realities leaders often feel but rarely say out loud.  It’s an honest look at why transitions feel so heavy, why waiting makes them harder, and how support can change the outcome entirely. This is not a forecast for what’s next. It’s a grounded invitation to name what’s already here and walk through it with wisdom, care, and courage. Key Takeaways Most transitions happen later than they should, not because of neglect but misplaced protection Waiting does not make transitions easier. It makes them more expensive Succession planning is about stewardship, not replacement Ministry transitions extend far beyond the church into nonprofits and faith-driven organizations Many leaders engage support only after the ending has already occurred Leaders are often relieved, not resistant, when care is offered Support consistently changes outcomes for leaders and organizations Chapter Markers 00:00 – When transition feels unfinished 05:20 – Why transitions are happening too late 11:10 – Succession as a silent crisis 17:30 – Ministry beyond the church walls 23:45 – Why people listen quietly 29:10 – What happens when leaders are offered support 35:40 – Why support changes outcomes If you’re in a transition, leading others through one, or want to help someone who didn’t see this coming, visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call, explore resources, or give toward supporting a leader in transition. You don’t have to walk this alone.

At some point in ministry, we start confusing busyness for faithfulness. We tell ourselves that exhaustion is just the cost of obedience - that being needed, stretched thin, and constantly available somehow means we’re doing it right.  But deep down, we know something’s wrong. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever. This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry. Key Takeaways Being busy for God is not the same as being faithful to Him. Stress isn’t proof of calling; it’s often a signal of fear or misplaced trust. Burnout is your body’s declaration of bankruptcy - an invitation to reorganize your life. Ministry culture often rewards overwork, but Jesus modeled a rhythm of rest and presence. True stewardship includes managing time as a sacred resource, not an endless debt. Building trust with time begins by creating small, consistent commitment plans. You don’t have to burn out to be fruitful. The work of God is sustained by the peace of God. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Matt and Andrew reconnect after 20 years 01:43 – When “busy for God” became burnout 05:18 – The body declares bankruptcy on stress 07:03 – Solving the time problem 09:21 – Is burnout a failure or a signal? 13:52 – Fear, faith, and our emotional relationship with time 17:24 – How “commitment plans” build peace 19:10 – Leading others in stewardship of time 23:48 – What life looks like on the other side of burnout 26:33 – Teams that heal their pace together Learn more, donate, or schedule a confidential transition call at MinistryTransitions.com Explore Andrew Hartman’s resources - free masterclass, coaching, and tools - at TimeBoss.us