People and Projects Podcast: Project Management Podcast

Summary In this episode, Andy talks with Amy Leneker, leadership coach, joy strategist, and author of Cheers to Monday. Amy's journey began with a burnout so severe that her doctor put her on medical leave. It took 10 words on a medical form to change everything: "What are your hobbies? What do you do for fun?" She couldn't answer it. That moment sent her on a mission to help leaders recognize stress earlier and respond to it far more intentionally. In this conversation, Amy shares the stress stories many leaders carry without ever questioning them, and why those stories get quietly rewarded in so many organizations. You'll hear how the body whispers warnings long before burnout hits, why most common stress-relief advice actually makes things worse, and how Amy's three-step Un-Stressing Method gives leaders a clear, practical framework to move forward. She also shares a powerful real-world example of a team carrying 73 stressors that simply didn't need to be there—and what happened when they finally saw that. If you're looking for a practical, empowering guide to break the cycle of stress and overwhelm in leadership, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "The story that I inherited, either intentionally or unintentionally, was you just work hard because that's the only choice you have." "I think one of the biggest mistakes that I made was not recognizing how much choice I had." "I couldn't remember the last time that I had real fun." "Those unhealthy stress stories are rewarded." "The majority of ways that we try to manage stress at work actually increase our stress." "When I ignored the whispers, it got to the point where ignoring it was no longer an option.... If you ignore them long enough, then the body's going to scream." "Talking about stress is stressful, but we've got to be able to see it if we're going to be able to do anything about it." "Unclear expectations are resentments waiting to happen." "People pleasing—it's not a healthy dynamic. It's not something that serves you or the people around you." "Stress is contagious. There is no question about it." "Yes, stress is wildly contagious, but so is joy." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:39 Start of Interview 01:52 Early Messages About Work and Stress 04:36 The 10 Words That Changed Everything 06:39 Postponing Joy 07:30 Stress Stories Leaders Believe 08:19 How the Body Signals Burnout Before the Brain Does 11:44 What's Broken About Typical Stress Advice 12:58 Walking Through the Un-Stressing Method 15:03 Why Sequence Matters: See, Sort, Solve 17:32 Solving Stress vs. Fixing It 18:44 The Un-Stressing Method in Action: A Team Story 21:58 The Danger of Unstated Priorities 22:42 People Pleasing as a Warning Sign 23:38 Breaking the Cycle of Stress as a Parent 24:41 End of Interview 25:11 Andy Comments After the Interview 28:16 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Amy and her work at AmyLeneker.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 448 with Marie-Helene Pelletier. It's a book on how to develop resilience when demands are piling up. It's a great follow-up to today's discussion. Episode 398 with Dr. Neha Sangwan, which is a book about learning to recognize wake up calls to help us avoid burnout. Episode 164 with stress researcher Derek Roger. Derek brings a unique perspective to the discussion about stress. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa—the podcast's AI persona—to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Pass the PMP Exam If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we've put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We've helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we'd love to help you too. It's totally free, and it's a great way to get a head start. Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I'd love to help you get your PMP this year! Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Stress Management, Leadership, Burnout Prevention, Wellbeing, Resilience, Team Culture, People Pleasing, Priority Setting, Workplace Conflict, Joy, Self-Awareness, Communication The following music was used for this episode: Music: Tropical Vibe by WinnieTheMoog License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Summer Morning Full Version by MusicLFiles License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Evan Unger, a consultant and trainer with 30+ years helping leaders facilitate collaborative decisions, shares practical meeting tools. He explains the POPRA model and how to separate purpose from objectives. He covers managing dominant voices, simple virtual techniques like simultaneous chat, and how to land meetings with clear actions and time to close.

Summary In this episode, Andy talks with Brett Harned, founder of the Digital PM Community and the Digital PM Summit, and author of Project Management for Humans: Helping People Get Things Done. Brett has spent years coaching project leaders and helping organizations rethink what project management really is. His core conviction: the human side of the work is not a nice-to-have. It is the work. In this conversation, you'll hear how Brett fell into project management and what early experiences shaped his perspective on people and projects. You'll learn the patterns he sees repeated across teams and industries, practical habits for when projects feel messy or start to drift, and why he believes project management is a leadership role that most organizations still undervalue. Brett also shares his candid take on AI, what it can and cannot do for project leaders, and what advice he would give his younger self. If you lead projects or teams, whether or not you have a PM title, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "Often with PMs, it's finding or receiving or feeling the permission to lead like a human instead of like a machine or a robot." "Projects fail because conversations didn't happen or they happened way too late." "Project management is a leadership role and too often organizations don't see it as a leadership role the way that they should." "Project managers are quietly carrying emotional labor that no one really acknowledges." "You can't earn trust by being invisible." "The role has become less about task tracking and more about judgment, good communication and trust building." "If you call people on your team resources, they have every right to call you overhead." "Slowing conversations down before speeding up the work is like the biggest thing." "Drift isn't usually about effort. It's about misaligned understanding." "AI is not going to replace a really good leader." "AI is great at admin. It's terrible at the leadership stuff. It can't read the room, it can't navigate tension, it can't earn trust." "Say the thing now. Saying something early is almost always safer than saying it too late." "The job of a project manager isn't to absorb chaos. It's to make it a conversation." "Caring about people and building relationships is a skill, and it's a skill that's necessary for this career." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:52 Start of Interview 01:57 How Brett Describes What He Does 03:29 When the People Side Became Clear 06:52 Patterns Across Teams and Organizations 10:32 How Expectations of the PM Role Have Changed 12:28 The Impact of Remote and Hybrid Work 15:26 Practices for When Projects Feel Messy 18:20 How to Name What Is Happening Out Loud 21:30 A Question for When Projects Start to Drift 23:43 How AI Will and Won't Change the PM Role 25:50 Practical Ways Brett Uses AI 30:21 Advice to Younger Brett 33:40 How PM Skills Show Up Outside of Work 35:58 The PM Squad and Same Team Partners 38:01 End of Interview 38:22 Andy Comments After the Interview 41:30 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Brett and his work at SameTeamPartners.com and BrettHarned.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 336 with Clint Padgett. During the interview with Brett, Andy mentioned the weakness of using only percent complete or status colors. That's something Clint and Andy talked about in episode 336. Episode 99 with Mike Roberto. The topic of conflict came up several times in this discussion. In episode 99, Mike and Andy talk about managing the tension between conflict and consensus. It's a discussion worth hearing, especially if you grew up thinking conflict is mostly a negative. Episode 500 with Steve Brown, former Google DeepMind futurist. Andy and Steve talk about AI and the future of work, and it's a discussion highly recommended for anyone leading projects today. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa—the podcast's AI persona—to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Pass the PMP Exam If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we've put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We've helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we'd love to help you too. It's totally free, and it's a great way to get a head start. Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I'd love to help you get your PMP this year! Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Project Management, Leadership, Team Dynamics, Communication, Emotional Labor, Human-Centered Leadership, Conflict Management, AI, Future of Work, Stakeholder Management, Psychological Safety, Remote Work, Project Recovery The following music was used for this episode: Music: Echo by Alexander Nakarada License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Synthiemania by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy welcomes Jen Fisher, author of Hope Is the Strategy: The Underrated Skill That Transforms Work, Leadership, and Wellbeing. In project management circles, we often hear the phrase "hope is not a strategy." Jen challenges that assumption, arguing that real hope is not wishful thinking at all. Instead, it's a practical cognitive process that can help leaders navigate uncertainty, pressure, and change. In the discussion, Jen explains how hope requires three elements: clear goals, multiple pathways to reach them, and the agency to believe we can influence outcomes. You'll also hear her personal story of realizing she was languishing under constant performance pressure, and how a candid conversation with her boss sparked the beginning of a healthier and more hopeful way of working. Along the way, Jen shares practical tools such as possibility journaling, energy ledgers, and hope spotting. She also explains why vulnerability can be a leadership superpower and how simple language shifts can turn hope killers into hope builders. If you're leading teams and projects under constant pressure and looking for practical ways to sustain both performance and wellbeing, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "How would I describe myself? I'm a hope dealer." "Hope is not flimsy. It's not whimsical." "Real hope actually requires action." "What drives hopelessness is feeling like there's nothing you can do." "Hope is the belief that tomorrow can be better than today." "67% of managers said that they've never been trained in how to manage other people. We put humans in charge of other humans, but we give them very little skill and training in how to lead." "You can perform when you're languishing, but the question is really why should we or why would we want to." "For the first time in my professional life, I actually felt seen and heard and valued." "Toxic positivity only makes people feel worse." "Possibility journaling is really thinking about what might be possible here." "Vulnerability is proof that you're human." "When people are feeling uncertain, they want to connect to somebody that feels human." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:45 Start of Interview 02:00 What Hope Is Not: Clearing Up the Misconceptions 03:45 What Real Hope Actually Requires 05:42 Agency and the Feeling of Hopelessness 06:24 Burnout vs. Hopelessness: Is There a Difference? 07:55 Wellbeing Intelligence: The Leadership Skill We're Missing 11:44 Languishing: That Gray Space Between Fine and Flourishing 14:15 The Hidden Cost of Time Pressure on Creativity 17:00 Breaking Through the High-Functioning Facade 20:15 Setting Boundaries as a Recovering People Pleaser 24:03 Practical Tools: Possibility Journal, Energy Ledger, and Hope Spotting 29:15 Vulnerability as a Leadership Superpower 33:46 Hope Killers and Hope Builders: The Language of Hope 38:00 The Hope Audit and the Hope Strategist Toolkit 39:33 Applying Hope at Home and as a Caregiver 41:30 Where to Learn More About Jen 41:26 End of Interview 41:54 Andy Comments After the Interview 45:18 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Jen and her work at Jen-Fisher.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 462 with Margie Warrell. Part of Jen's message in the book is the importance of agency—of believing that you're not a victim and that you have options. Margie is a fierce advocate for how to take action when you're feeling hopeless. I highly recommend her work. Episode 448 with Marie-Hélène Pelletier. It's an engaging discussion about burnout and resilience, and a fantastic follow-up to this discussion with Jen. Episode 396 with Thomas Curran. It's an episode on perfectionism, and I think you'll find it an excellent follow-up to this discussion as well. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa, the podcast's AI persona, to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Pass the PMP Exam If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we've put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We've helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we'd love to help you too. It's totally free, and it's a great way to get a head start. Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I'd love to help you get your PMP this year! Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Leadership, Wellbeing, Burnout, Hope, Resilience, Vulnerability, Boundaries, Team Culture, Employee Engagement, Languishing, Psychological Safety, Workplace Performance The following music was used for this episode: Music: Imagefilm 034 by Sascha Ende License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Tuesday by Sascha Ende License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary Welcome to our 500th episode! To celebrate this milestone, Andy talks with Steve Brown, AI futurist, keynote speaker, and author of The AI Ultimatum: Preparing for a World of Intelligent Machines and Radical Transformation. Steve brings a rare perspective shaped by years at Intel and Google DeepMind, and today helps organizations navigate two vital questions: what future do you want to build with AI, and what future do you want to avoid? They explore why waiting isn't actually the safe option it feels like, how to think about the different "flavors" of AI beyond just generative tools, and what it really means to orchestrate humans, AI agents, and robots together in the workplace. Steve introduces three types of AI agents—offload, elevate, and extend—and explains the crucial difference between automating tasks and truly transforming how work gets done. You'll also hear his candid take on the fear of being replaced and why doubling down on your humanity is the smartest career move you can make right now. If you're looking for a practical, empowering guide to leading through the AI revolution—without the hype—this episode is for you! Sound Bites "The difference between an AI-enabled or AI-first company and an AI laggard is going to be so great that if you don't get on the train, you may get to the point where you can never catch up." "Your competitors who have embraced AI faster than you are going to be just kicking your butt all over town." "There's a serious cost to inaction in that you can become made irrelevant." "The danger with that is you may automate yourself. It may automate away all of the differentiation you have in your brand and your company." "AI is this sort of amplification technology, and the challenge is to balance cost-cutting and value creation." "Each flavor of AI is useful for solving a different type of business problem." "It feels like a digital employee, right? A digital worker that works for you." "It's taking the suck out of your job." "The real opportunity here, is to transform the way you do work rather than just try and automate away tasks or people." "The workplace of the future is going to be three groups. Humans will still be in the workforce. Great! Go us!" "You won't be replaced by an AI or a robot. You'll be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI better than you do." "Double down on your humanity." "Focus on building the skills that cannot be replaced, or at least won't be replaced by machines anytime soon." "At the end of all of this is going to be lives of abundance, where we have the things that we need." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:45 Start of Interview 01:54 Steve's Career Journey from Intel to DeepMind 05:00 Understanding the AI Ultimatum 08:23 Our First AI Moments 09:32 The Flavors of AI 13:54 Three Pathways to Creating Value with AI 15:11 Automation vs. Transformation 17:10 Orchestrating Humans, AI, and Robots 19:01 Real-World Examples of AI Agents 21:33 Physically Intelligent Robots in the Workplace 24:13 Addressing Fear and Resistance to AI 26:44 Preparing the Next Generation for the AI Age 29:56 Where to Learn More About Steve 31:01 End of Interview 31:38 Andy Comments After the Interview 36:23 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Steve and his work at SteveBrown.ai. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 479 with Matt Mong. It's a discussion about the AI skills you need to stay relevant. Episode 454 with Christie Smith. She talks about how AI is changing leadership, and what we can do about that now. Episode 437 with Nada Sanders. It's a discussion about future-prepping your career in an age of AI. You can also chat directly with PMeLa—the podcast's AI persona—to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Level Up Your AI Skills Join other listeners from around the world who are taking our AI Made Simple course to prepare for an AI-infused future. Just go to ai.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com. Thanks! Pass the PMP Exam This Year If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we've put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We've helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we'd love to help you too. It's totally free, and it's a great way to get a head start. Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I'd love to help you get your PMP this year! Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Business Acumen Topics: Artificial Intelligence, Leadership, Future of Work, AI Strategy, Digital Transformation, Agentic AI, Automation, Organizational Change, AI Ethics, Competitive Advantage, Human-AI Collaboration, Technology Adoption The following music was used for this episode: Music: Lullaby of Light featuring Cory Friesenhan by Sascha Ende License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Fashion Corporate by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy talks with Wharton economist Judd Kessler, author of Lucky by Design: The Hidden Economics You Need to Get More of What You Want. If you have ever looked at someone else's career success and thought, "They just got lucky," this conversation will give you a new lens. Judd introduces the idea of "hidden markets," the informal rules and systems that shape who gets opportunities, access, and scarce resources, even when money is not changing hands. They explore how leaders can evaluate allocation rules using Judd's three Es (equitable, efficient, and easy), why first come, first served "races" often reward availability more than merit, and how waiting lists can quietly shift costs onto the people least able to pay them. You will also hear Judd's "settle for silver" strategy, a practical way to make smarter choices in competitive markets, plus a thoughtful parenting angle on teaching kids to notice rules and incentives early. If you're looking for a fresh, research-backed perspective on how hidden rules shape who gets opportunities at work and in life, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "The goal of the book is to get people to start to recognizing these markets all around us." "In most of these markets, they play by a simple rule that we all understand, which is if you're willing to pay for the thing, then you get it." "Is the way that we're deciding who gets what... is it equitable? Is it efficient? And is it easy for market participants?" "I open my calendar and I see all these recurring meetings on my calendar, recurring meetings that were set up years or months ago. That's first in time, first in right." "If you understand the rules and develop strategies to get what you want from the market, then you actually can be one of the handful that actually gets the thing, that desirable outcome, and then it will look like you got lucky." "It's always going to be the folks who are in the market winning who are always going to think that it's fair." "Once you start thinking like, how am I actually allocating these things? That's when you've put on that market designer hat." "They'll come to you kind of with half-baked ideas because they know if they wait later on until they can fully bake the idea that the resources or the fun parts of the project might already be gone." "Part of what the Settle for Silver / Go for Gold Strategy is forcing you to do, is to think seriously about what you want and why you want it." "You, as a parent, you are designing the markets that your kids play in all the time." "We're not breaking the rules, but we are figuring out what they are so that we can put ourselves in a good position, and that's going to serve you well." "Maybe by being in the office, you are signaling your dedication to the firm that you're available for all of these opportunities." "If it's something that anybody can do, like send a quick email, right? That's, it's not actually costly. Anybody could send that email even if they're not truly dedicated and eager for the opportunity." "You cannot get all three E's for sure in any allocation mechanism. There's always going to be tradeoffs." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:41 Start of Interview 01:49 Growing Up and Thinking About Luck 03:00 Introducing Hidden Markets 07:10 The Three E's: Equitable, Efficient, and Easy 08:08 Live Event Tickets as a Case Study 12:50 High Frequency Trading and Hidden Races 15:21 Common Misunderstandings of the Three E's 17:04 Races Inside Organizations and Project Teams 20:25 Proximity, Signaling, and Opportunity at Work 23:03 Are We Selecting for the Right Behavior? 25:41 Stepping Back to Evaluate Your Own Systems 25:52 Colorado River Water Rights and Recurring Meetings 29:09 The Settle for Silver Strategy 30:57 The French Laundry Reservation Story 32:51 Settle for Silver in College Admissions 37:22 Helping Kids Recognize Rules and Incentives 41:03 End of Interview 41:32 Andy Comments After the Interview 44:34 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Judd and his work at JuddBKessler.com/book. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 265, a short video episode Andy put together about the topic of luck. Check it out! Episode 339 with Katy Milkman. Katy is the person who gave Andy the heads-up about Judd's book. In episode 339, they talk about her book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be. It's a great discussion with another researcher who knows how to make the learning practical for all of us. Episode 372 with Annie Duke. Annie is a former world champion poker player who is a big fan of Judd's book. How does a poker player think about luck? Check out episode 372 to find out! Pass the PMP Exam This Year If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we've put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We've helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we'd love to help you too. It's totally free, and it's a great way to get a head start. Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I'd love to help you get your PMP this year! Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Luck, Hidden Markets, Behavioral Economics, Leadership, Decision Making, Resource Allocation, Organizational Design, Career Strategy, Signaling, Systems Thinking, Equity, Project Management The following music was used for this episode: Music: Echo by Alexander Nakarada License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Fashion Corporate by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Joe Ferraro, podcast host and coach who trains leaders in high-stakes conversations, shares small, practical moves to make meetings and talks more memorable and useful. He highlights curiosity over canned questions, preparing as an act of generosity, ways to turn presentations into interactive conversations, techniques for composure under pressure, and simple prompts and scripts that boost connection.

Richard Carson, author of The Book of Change and creator of the PSOCM model, offers a practical, system-based way to handle continuous organizational change. He discusses diagnosing root problems, distinguishing adaptive versus transformational shifts, gaining executive traction without top-down support, and why change must be sustained by people. Expect clear, battle-tested strategies for anticipating and managing chaos.

Norman Patnode, Principal at ProChain Solutions and former aerospace engineer/Air Force officer who coaches teams in Critical Chain and Theory of Constraints. He talks about shifting from task lists to systems thinking. Short, practical rules like prioritize, focus, finish. Why single-tasking beats multitasking. How managing the system constraint boosts predictability and delivery speed.

Summary In this episode, Andy talks with Steve Jaffe, author of The Layoff Journey: From Dismissal to Discovery. Steve has been laid off four times over the course of his career, and those experiences shaped a thoughtful, practical framework for navigating the emotional and professional aftermath of job loss. Andy and Steve explore why layoffs feel so personal even when we are told they are not, how identity often gets tangled up with job titles, and why the emotional response to a layoff closely mirrors the stages of grief. Steve explains why those stages are not linear, what denial, pain, and negotiation really look like in practice, and why trying to rush straight to acceptance can backfire. You will also hear practical advice for leaders who must conduct layoffs, as well as guidance for professionals who worry they might be laid off in the future. From preserving dignity in difficult conversations to preparing financially, emotionally, and professionally before uncertainty hits, this discussion offers insight for both sides of the table. If you are navigating uncertainty, supporting others through change, or simply want to be better prepared for whatever comes next, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "I wanted to give people a roadmap to process their layoff and the grief of their layoff in months rather than years." "One of the things that makes losing a job difficult is we tie our identity up in what we do." "And then in that period, before you've landed your next job, you're in this messy middle of Who am I?" "Define yourself not by what you do, but by who you are and what you bring to the table." "I've seen people be named Employee of the Year in January, and by June they're getting laid off." "Layoffs don't measure your worth. They measure a company's priorities." "The stages of grief are not linear. You can feel all of them in one day." "Your job title is not who you are." "Acceptance can become a way to skip discomfort instead of dealing with loss." "If you don't process the grief, it shows up later as baggage." "Dignity matters in the first minutes of a layoff conversation." "You want to build your network before you need it." "The person you were before a layoff will not be the same person after." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:45 Start of Interview 02:00 From First Layoff to Fourth: Taking It Personally 02:50 How the Layoff Process Has Changed Over Time 06:52 The Messy Middle Between Job Loss and What's Next 10:40 Why the Stages of Grief Apply to Layoffs 14:07 What Denial Looked Like in Steve's Experience 17:19 Balancing Emotional Honesty and Professional Reputation 22:08 The Quote That Opens the Book 23:00 Can You Jump to Acceptance Too Quickly? 24:58 When Past Layoffs Create Baggage at the Next Job 26:42 Advice for Leaders Who Have to Do Layoffs 28:55 Handling Performance-Based Separations with Integrity 30:40 How to Prepare Now If You Worry About Being Laid Off 32:46 End of Interview 33:33 Andy Comments After the Interview 37:37 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Steve and his work at TheSteveJaffe.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 163. A short three-minute video Andy put together about what to do before losing your job. Episode 310 with Jeff Gothelf, about how to let your next job find you. Episode 230 with Scott Belsky. Not specifically about layoffs, but full of insights on careers, growth, and the hiring process. Level Up Your AI Skills In the outtakes, Andy and Steve talk about how AI is changing the workplace. If you want to be better prepared for an AI-infused future, check out our AI Made Simple course. Just go to ai.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com. Thanks! Pass the PMP Exam If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we've put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We've helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we'd love to help you too. Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I'd love to help you get your PMP this year! Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader. That's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than five minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Business Acumen Topics: Leadership, Layoffs, Career Transitions, Organizational Change, Emotional Intelligence, Resilience, Identity at Work, Grief, Workforce Planning, Change Management, Professional Development The following music was used for this episode: Music: Echo by Alexander Nakarada License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Energetic Drive Indie Rock by WinnieTheMoog License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license