Public Defenseless

Today, I speak with Bennet Baur, the Chief Public Defender of New Mexico. With the power of the people behind them, Ben Baur and the New Mexico Public Defenders were able to find independence and fight for desperately needed reforms. Yet a decade after gaining independence, the Law Offices of the Public Defender can handle only one-third of the cases they carry. This week, join us as we uncover what is going right, what is going wrong, and how our community is put in danger because of a lack of public defense funding. Bennet Baur is a wonderful example of what happens when a public defender cares about personal freedom. Key Topics and Takeaways: Bennet's role and how his office came to be [3:49] Important public policy issues in new Mexico public defense [8:10] The 2007 caseload report that was done on New Mexico public defense [11:19] Why public defense should be the baseline on how cases are charged [12:52] The problems with a flat fee system [22:56] What happens when a client is waiting for representation [35:29] Problem with probations and how they are moving into a harm reduction model [41:12] Representation of migrants [47:52] Guests: Bennet Baur, Chief Public Defender at New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender Resources: American Bar Association New Mexico Project 2007 Caseload Study 2021 Caseload Study New Mexico Public Defender Website New Mexico Safe Memorable Quotes: "It's also policy, you know not just advocating for our clients, but advocating for what we think is good public policy." (7:32, Ben) "Because I work in the system, I believe that over-incarceration, that just putting people in jail, isn't going to solve the problem." (10:05, Ben) "When those mistakes interact with a human being's life, liberty, and their ability to make a living, those are mistakes that can't happen." ( 20:32, Hunter) "The system is based upon is lawyers doing a lot of work for free for the state. And that's not the way that this should work. It shouldn't be up to a lawyer to do work for free, which is what happens to provide ethical representation." (28:11, Ben) "Give us more money or give us fewer cases." (33:49, Ben) "I'll say it again. We missed the point of these bail reforms. There are certain individuals who, because of poverty, are not a threat to the community and are in jail." (38:01, Hunter) "I hate that we as a society always have an overreaction to everything that happens, whether it's on the left or right, or something bad happens that we don't like. And then we over-correct, so we make it just as bad. And we can't get that pendulum to just sit right in the middle where it works " (39:11, Hunter) "You shouldn't fund government services on poor people." (40:13, Ben)

Louisiana holds one of the highest incarceration rates in the world. And with a lack of funding, public defenders can only handle 21% of open cases at a time. In today's episode, I speak to two impressive guests: Derwyn Bunton, Chief Public Defender of Orleans Public Defenders, and Trisha Ward, Chief Public Defender of Evangeline Parish. Together, Derwyn and Trisha walk us through the complexities of the Louisiana indigent defense system and how its fee-based model leads to problems. Derwyn and Trisha are truly beacons of strength in an overwhelming system. Key Topics and Takeaways: An overview of Louisiana's user pay system of justice [4:49] The reality of fees in Louisiana [9:31] The difficulties that Trish faces at a rural level [14:57] How hurricanes affect public defense in Louisiana [17:27] Pre-trial confinement in Louisiana & why it's so long [20:07] The types of people who go through the Louisiana indigent system [29:01] Why the cases have piled up so high [38:42] The importance of investigators [41:45] Guests: Derwyn Bunton, Chief Public Defender of Orleans Public Defenders Trisha Ward, Chief Public Defender of Evangeline Parish Resources: Orleans Public Defenders Evangeline Parish Public Defenders Memorable Quotes: "Public defenders in Louisiana are paid to lose. Structurally paid to lose. This is an incentive to plead because that's where the funding comes from." [11:20, Derwin] "What we need to do is let folks know that public define is a part of our constitution, but it's also part of our political culture and heritage as a country." [12:03, Derwin] "It's very easy to have your kids permanently removed and your rights terminated. So I think that may be the most egregious thing at the end." [27:08, Trisha] "We can also lower the amount of people who are going through the system in general because we are getting to the roots of criminality, that I think is so important for people to understand." [37:35, Hunter] "We are poorly, very poorly funded. And I'm having to just lay the basic groundwork right now, and call that me moving in a client-centered direction, which I do think it is, but there are many many challenges ahead because of the way that our systems are funded." [40:28, Trisha] "If we have investigations handled properly, the courts don't have to deal with cases where innocence is obvious. You don't need a bad actor to have somebody wrongfully accused of a crime." [46:11, Hunter] "I don't see any true, true improvement in these rural districts until there is a better state system or funding mechanism." [49:13, Trisha] "Our criminal legal system has gotten so big, it impacts so many different parts of our lives, that we just need to bring it back to what it ought to be in my opinion, which is focused on community." [50:36, Derwin]

Meet Justin Andrus: Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services. In this week's episode, I speak with Justin about how he is massively improving the indigent defense system in the state of Maine. Maine is unique because 100% of their public defenders are contract attorneys, but Justin makes it work. You'll learn the ins and outs of public defense in Maine. By knowing the true realities of the system, you'll walk away feeling motivated to create change. Key Topics and Takeaways: Problems in the Maine indigent system [6:00] Why Maine still has all contract attorneys [10:05] How The Great Resignation has affected Maine public defense [14:10] Why $80 per hour is still underpaying public defenders [16:05] The Lawyer of the Day system and why it doesn't always work as intended [19:51] Partial indigence [35:05] What self-represented people should know [43:43] The problems with fines and fees [50:57] Guests: Justin Andrus, Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services Resources: Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services https://www.maine.gov/mcils/home Sixth Amendment Center Report on Indigent Defense in Maine Maine Monitor/ProPublica Report on the MCILS issues in the past OPEGA Report on Finance Oversight Issues in MCILS Reports mentioned at 7:42 Memorable Quotes: "I do think that it is possible to have the structure that provides the necessary oversight and training and quality assurance for contracted attorneys." (11:18, Justin) "We need higher wages. Communicating how important it is and for people to understand how important it is that it's the defendant who is harmed by this." (19:26, Hunter) "So the concept of partially indigent is maybe a misnomer. I agree. It doesn't make a lot of sense on its face as a set of words." (35:16. Justin) "It isn't this mortal combat between good and evil, as many people want it to be. It is individuals trying to do the best for the defendant, for the community, all of these things working in mind." (38:15, Hunter) "We are not a bunch of shady people helping evil doers be free to do more evil. And in fact, the vast majority of people accused of crimes are not evildoers at all." (40:39, Justin) "Society is safest when the most number of people are having their needs met." (14:29, Justin) "The first thing a self-represented defendant should know is don't be self-represented if you could possibly avoid it." (44:03, Justin)

04: Public Defense w/ David Carroll This week, Executive Director of the Sixth Amendment Center, David Carroll walks us through how he got into public defense, the issues with public defense, and solutions that we can implement now. You'll learn the some the areas states continue to fail sixth amendment obligationa, the "the dirty little secret" of the American courtroom, and how the justice system can shift to support the public in this space. Through David's expert experience and unique perspective, you'll get an inside view of the public defense system and the value of the sixth amendment being executed accurately. Key Topics and Takeaways: Misdemeanor representation issues The impacts of excessive entanglement between judges and defenders Police officer's role in court and being held accountable on trial The way to successfully campaign on public defense reform in a blue state or a red state The diversity of public defense between states. How failing to find Indigent Defense also harms our next generation Guests: David Carroll, Executive Director of the Sixth Amendment Center Resources: Sixth Amendment Center https://sixthamendment.org/ American Bar Association 10 Principles of Public Defense Memorable Quotes: "America's little secret is that thousands of people are processed into jail every day, without ever speaking to an attorney, this is almost exclusively, but not entirely in misdemeanor courts." (8:42, David) "At the core of our justice system is the idea that the state has a burden, which that word should mean something, a burden to prove your guilt with evidence." (11:20, Hunter) "There should be a lawyer with the client. There should be a lawyer in the courtroom… it clearly shows to me that these aren't defendants who simply don't want to show up in court." (17:46, David) "Criminal justice is probably the largest expenditure of government's money at the state and local level. And we're not getting the aims we want with no one's feeling any safer. In fact, you're probably ruining people's lives and not making them productive citizens" (25:25, David) "People are trying to do good by their communities. 95% of the people I've met even if they're doing some really, really problematic things, got into government or criminal justice because they did want to serve their communities." (42:16, David) "People hear fines and fees and they go, well, it's better than jail." (58:20, Hunter)

James McDermott, Chief Public Defender for Far West Texas, and Scott Ehlers, Director of Public Defense Improvement at the Texas Indigent Defense Commission, highlight the challenges in the Texas Indigent Defense System. They discuss the barriers to fair legal representation and the importance of community outreach. The conversation touches on the impact of judges on defense access, common client issues like addiction and mental health, and the benefits of a holistic defense model. Stories of client successes show the human side of their work.

Andre De Gruy, State Public Defender of Mississippi and reform advocate, discusses the complexities of the public defense system in the state. He highlights the challenges of securing funding and the 'black hole' of the indictment process, where defendants often go months without legal counsel. Andre shares insights on the history of public defense, the pressure for incremental reform, and the need for early appointment of counsel. His vision includes a Michigan-inspired model to improve outcomes, reduce costs, and address the systemic failures that have led to the current crisis.

Discover the intricate world of public defense through an engaging exploration of its history and significance. Learn about pivotal cases like Gideon v. Wainwright and the essential role of affordable legal representation. Hear about the challenges of defining indigency across states and the impact of fees on access to counsel. Hunter shares his personal experience in the justice system, illustrating the pressing need for reform. Prepare to shift your perception of public defense and understand its ethical implications for society.

Explore the alarming issues plaguing the criminal justice system with insights from top defense attorneys. Discover how seemingly casual interactions can spiral into serious legal trouble. Hear about the pressure to accept plea deals and the often overwhelming courtroom experience for those without adequate representation. Learn how systemic failures contribute to injustice, including the denial of counsel and the coercion surrounding bail. This lively discussion shines a light on the complexities of legal proceedings and the urgent need for reform.