The Christopher Perrin Show

DescriptionChristopher Perrin welcomes author and speaker Heidi White to discuss her book The Divided Soul and the inner conflict so many people experience between duty and desire. Along the way, Perrin draws on his own work, The Good Teacher, to frame how educators can unite discipline and delight as they form students’ loves. White traces her path from homeschooling into classical education, then explains how a single remark from Andrew Kern—about the Prodigal Son—sparked a long meditation on the “two brothers” within the human heart. From Genesis to Augustine, and from Dante to Homer, they explore how disordered desire can lead either to indulgence (the prodigal) or to self-righteous suppression (the older brother). Perrin and White rehabilitate the language of desire—eros, longing, even the “stars” behind the word desire—as a force meant for joy and union when properly ordered. The conversation turns practical as White describes classroom habits, “much, not many,” and Socratic discussion as ways to unite discipline and delight in student learning. The episode closes with where to find White’s work, including The Divided Soul, her Substack, and The Close Reads community.Episode OutlineHeidi White’s journey: homeschooling, recovering her own education, and entering the classical renewalThe Divided Soul: how the Prodigal Son becomes a template for understanding interior conflictGenesis and the Fall: how desire and duty fracture, and why the rupture shapes every human dilemmaRehabilitating desire: eros, “chaste eros,” fasting and feasting, and longing for heavenAugustine and the divided will: why we do what we hate and resist what we loveTeaching implications: habits, formation, music practice, and the slow education of desireClassroom practice: reading “much, not many,” annotation, handwriting, and Socratic discussionGreat books as living feasts: why students return to Austen, Dante, Homer, and others across a lifetimeKey Topics & TakeawaysThe “two brothers” within us: White argues that the prodigal’s appetite and the older brother’s resentment both live in the same soul—and healing requires reconciliation, not victory by one side.The Fall fractures what paradise joined: In Eden, duty and desire were aligned; sin introduces a traumatic division that echoes through every choice, habit, and temptation.Desire needs rehabilitation, not elimination: Desire is not “for” self-indulgence or suppression, but for joy—ultimately a longing for union with God that remains incomplete this side of eternity.Fasting is a pedagogy of desire: Self-denial isn’t contempt for pleasure; it’s training appetite toward a higher good—because “the purpose of the fast is the feast.”Great teaching makes room for gift: Dutiful habits (reading, writing, practice) create conditions where wonder can “break in” unexpectedly through truth, goodness, and beauty.“Much, not many” restores attention: Classical pedagogy resists “covering content” and instead invites slow, meaningful encounters that students can return to for decades.Love is the bridge between duty and desire: The teacher’s “office” (officium) is fulfilled in benevolent love—guiding the student into communion with the artifact and the joy it holds.Questions & DiscussionWhere do you see the “two brothers” in yourself: indulgence or self-righteous suppression?Identify one area where you chase satisfaction “on your own terms” and one area where you deny desire through resentment or control. What would reconciliation look like—practically—in the next week?How does the Prodigal Son illuminate your relationships (family, faculty, friendships)?Where do you see the temptation to label others as “that son of yours” rather than “this brother of yours”? What practices might restore relationship instead of reinforcing distance?What is desire for in your community’s imagination?Compare two instincts: “fulfill every appetite” vs. “want nothing.” Which dominates your environment?How could you articulate desire as ordered toward joy, union, and holiness? How can teachers unite rigor and joy in a classroom? How can teachers unite rigor and joy in a classroom?Identify one duty you want to strengthen (annotation, narration, memorization, problem sets). Pair it with one practice of delight (Socratic discussion, shared reading, seminar questions that touch real student longings).Suggested Reading & ResourcesThe Divided Soul by Heidi WhiteThe Good Teacher by Christopher Perrin PhD and Carrie Eben MSeDNorms and Nobility by David HicksSt. Augustine’s Confessions by St. Augustine The Odyssey by Homer The Prodigal Son - Luke 15 The CiRCE InstituteClassical Academic PressClose Reads Community Heidi White's SubstackChristopher Perrin’s Substack

DescriptionAndrew Zwerneman, writer and narrator for HISTORY250® and co-founder and president of Cana Academy, joins Christopher Perrin to argue that America’s cultural crisis is, at root, a crisis of memory—and that renewing history education is a work of restoration. Zwerneman traces the teachers, places, and lived experiences that formed him as a historian, then explains why the “liberal discipline of history” must resist ideological reduction and return to observation, sympathy, and fidelity to the past. Along the way, they connect historical remembrance to the deepest human questions: personhood, responsibility, freedom, and the moral imagination that societies inherit. The conversation explores how biblical and classical sources shaped the American founding, how later leaders invoked inherited principles to confront slavery and injustice, and why the West’s habit of self-criticism depends on conserving what came before. Zwerneman introduces Cana Academy and its HISTORY250®  project as practical efforts to rebuild shared story through films, primary sources, maps, and teacher formation. The episode closes with a vivid picture of what great history instruction looks like: students learning to read documents, geography, art, and narrative so they can live under a shared story and recover “hallowed ground.”Episode OutlineZwerneman’s formation: family travel, early teachers, and awakening to the moral weight of historyWhy remembrance is central to human and Christian life: Exodus, Passover, and “do this in remembrance of me”Rejecting “history as a force”: recovering human agency, personhood, and moral dramaAmerican inheritance: scripture, ordered liberty, common law, and natural law in the foundingLearning from paradox: freedom and slavery at the founding; reform movements that appeal to founding idealsThe liberal discipline of history: observation, sympathy, and resisting ideologyWhat students should study: imagery, narratives, structures, data, geography, and the craft of storyCana Academy and HISTORY250®: films, documents, maps, and a “gift” aimed at cultural renewalA tour of the ideal classical history classroom: what you’d see, hear, and practiceKey Topics & TakeawaysHistory restores identity: A people who lose their story lose a clear sense of who they are—and what they owe to the dead and the unborn.Human agency is central: Against “history as a force,” the episode insists that persons mediate between past and present through decisions, sacrifices, and responsibilities.Ordered liberty requires memory: American freedom is rooted in inherited sources (biblical imagination, British rights, common law, natural law), and it decays when citizens forget the responsibilities that attend freedom.History trains moral realism without moralizing: Sympathy is not excuse-making; it is the disciplined effort to understand the human condition before passing judgment.The classroom must return to concrete realities: Great history teaching works from maps, artifacts, documents, portraits, letters, diaries, and place—so students learn “what actually happened.”Shared story creates shared sympathies: Art, poetry, and narrative shape communal feeling and help students situate their lives in a meaningful inheritance.Renewal is practical: Teacher formation, curated primary sources, and accessible tools (films, documents, maps) are presented as tangible ways to fight cultural amnesia.Questions & DiscussionWhat does it mean to study the past “in its pastness”?Discuss why people in the past may act in ways we do not recognize—or approve. How can teachers pursue truth without turning history into propaganda or therapy?How do observation and sympathy change the way we teach hard topics (war, slavery, injustice)?Identify one topic where your students tend to moralize quickly or dismissively. What sources (letters, diaries, speeches, laws, artifacts) could slow them down into careful understanding?What’s the difference between “ordered liberty” and “license”?Describe a modern example where freedom is framed as “doing whatever I want.” What habits, texts, or stories could help students reconnect freedom to responsibility and the common good?Which leaders or movements best model “reform by remembering”? Compare at least two examples discussed (e.g., Douglass, Lincoln, King, Chavez). What did each retrieve from the past to address present suffering?What belongs in a strong history curriculum besides a textbook? Make a list under five headings: imagery, narratives, structural analysis, data, and geography. Choose one heading and propose one new classroom routine (weekly map-reading, document lab, portrait study, artifact analysis, narrative-writing).What would you see in a “great classical upper school” history class?Describe the sounds and practices: seminar discussion, source analysis, narration, map work, interpretive writing, and shared reading. What is one change you could make this term that moves your classroom closer to that ideal?Suggested Reading & ResourcesHistory Forgotten and Remembered by Andrew ZwernemanAmerican Slavery, American Freedom by Edmund S. MorganLand of Hope by Wilfred M. McClayWestern Heritage since 1300 by Donald Kagan, Steven Ozment, Frank M. Turner, and Gregory F. ViggianoThe Second World Wars: How the First Global Conflict Was Fought and Won by Victor Davis HansonHoly Sonnets by John DonneThe Oxford Edition of Blackstone's: Commentaries on the Laws of England: Book I, II, III, and IVPack by William BlackstoneThe book of DeuteronomyThe book of ExodusThe Declaration of IndependenceThe U.S. ConstitutionThe Bill of RightsCana AcademyHISTORY250®The Curious Historian Humanitas

A deep dive into why the word classical causes confusion and why it persists in modern schooling. Short lectures on metaphors, analogy, and how language shapes what we mean by education. Close looks at Greek terms like paideia and trophē and how Latin and English translations often flatten rich meanings. Concludes by proposing formation as a clearer center for the tradition.

DescriptionDavid Diener, Assistant Professor of Education at Hillsdale College and president of The Alcuin Fellowship, joins Christopher Perrin to reflect on how a philosopher’s training can become a vocational doorway into the renewal of classical education. Drawing from years in K–12 school leadership and now higher education, Diener describes why classical schools often foster unusually rich intellectual community—and why that matters in an age of academic fragmentation. He also introduces Hillsdale’s Master of Arts in Classical Education (MACE), a program designed to address one of the movement’s biggest bottlenecks: forming well-equipped teachers and administrators. The conversation highlights how enduring philosophical anchors—from Plato and Aristotle to Aquinas—can be translated into concrete classroom practice. Diener then traces the role of The Alcuin Fellowship in deepening the movement’s historical and theoretical grounding, including its influence on The Liberal Arts Tradition. Finally, they look outward to the global growth of classical Christian education, including partnerships and training initiatives in Africa, such as the Rafiki Foundation, and expanding work across Latin America. David Diener has a forthcoming monograph in Spanish that will provide chapter-length essays on various aspects of classical Christian education. Additionally, he has an upcoming course on ClassicalU.com will release in the spring of 2026.Episode OutlineFrom philosophy to teaching: Diener’s academic formation, early teaching experience abroad, and why education became his focusWhy classical schools attract scholars: the “faculty-of-friends” culture and how it can outpace typical undergraduate settingsHillsdale’s MACE program: structure, distinctives, and the need for teacher formation at scaleThe Alcuin Fellowship: purpose, retreats, the “scholar-practitioner” model, and the ecosystem role it playsPublications and intellectual consolidation: how collaborative work helped birth The Liberal Arts Tradition by Kevin Clark, DLS, and Ravi Jain Global and Latin American growth: partnerships, conferences, and emerging networks across continentsKey Topics & TakeawaysFormation Through Practices: What we repeatedly do shapes what we love.Classical Schools as Intellectual Communities: Classical faculties often cultivate cross-disciplinary conversation and shared learning in ways that counter modern academic siloing.Theory-to-Practice Formation: Strong programs don’t leave philosophy abstract—they press big ideas into classroom realities and school leadership decisions.The Teacher-Leader Pipeline is the Bottleneck: Sustainable growth depends on forming more capable teachers and administrators, not merely opening more schools.Why MACE is Built the Way it is: A shared core creates common language and vision; later specialization prepares teachers and leaders for distinct roles.Fellowship as Infrastructure for Renewal: The Alcuin Fellowship functions as a hub for scholar-practitioners who think deeply and serve schools faithfully.From Local Renewal to Global Opportunity: The movement’s growth is increasingly international, with meaningful work underway in Africa and expanding initiatives in Latin America.Questions & DiscussionWhat kind of “fragmentation” have you experienced in education (or your own formation)?What practices have helped you move toward integration?Why might a classical school faculty create stronger intellectual friendship than many modern institutions?Compare your current context to a “lunch-table culture” where teachers learn together across disciplines. What would it take to cultivate that kind of shared learning where you are?What is the role of a fellowship (formal or informal) in renewing an educational tradition?Identify one fellowship function you most need: reading, conversation, research, mentoring, or mutual sharpening. What could be your next practical step to build that community?How should the classical renewal relate to other organizations and conferences in the movement?What do you hope conferences and associations provide beyond inspiration (formation, scholarship, standards, support)? How can leaders prevent “event energy” from replacing sustained local practice?What opportunities—and challenges—come with global growth of classical Christian education?Discuss the difference between exporting a model and serving a local culture with deep roots. What do “curriculum accessibility” and “teacher training resources” mean in practical terms?Suggested Reading & ResourcesThe Liberal Arts Tradition by Kevin Clark, DLS, and Ravi JainThe Liberal Arts Tradition (Audiobook) by Kevin Clark, DLS, and Ravi JainRafiki FoundationThe Rafiki Foundation PodcastAssociation of Classical Christian Schools (ACCS)Society for Classical Learning (SCL)Hillsdale CollegeHillsdale AcademyThe Alcuin FellowshipDr. Christopher Perrin on Substack 

DescriptionFather Nathan Carr, Headmaster of The Academy and often dubbed “the Jack Sparrow of classical education,” joins Christopher Perrin to recount his unexpected path into classical Christian school leadership—and the hard-won lessons of building a flourishing school culture over two decades. Their conversation draws on James K. A. Smith’s Desiring the Kingdom to argue that “liturgies” (in church and in culture) quietly train our loves and longings. Carr connects that insight to his own work, The Festive School, where he explores how a school’s calendar, habits, and celebrations can become formative—not merely decorative. He also points listeners to his Student Prayer Book as a practical companion for cultivating daily, embodied prayer in the life of a classroom. From The Book of Common Prayer and the daily offices to monastic rhythms like Matins and Compline, he frames education as formation through repeated, prayerful practice. Along the way, they address objections to “rote” ritual, suggesting that repetition can become spiritually alive and deeply consoling over time. The episode closes with concrete snapshots of festivity at The Academy: Lessons & Carols, Stations of the Cross, and campus-wide celebrations of Incarnation and Resurrection. Father Nathan Carr also has a forthcoming course on ClassicalU.com that will release in the early Spring of 2026.Episode OutlineLeadership and longevity: building a flourishing school culture over time James K. A. Smith and “cultural liturgies”: how places and routines form desire Formative practices of the church: reimagining “school” with ecclesial inheritanceA sacramental worldview for education: wonder, gratitude, and formation through loving attentionThe Rule of St. Benedict and the daily offices as a template for student life: Morning prayer / Matins and Lauds, Midday prayer / Sext and remembering Christ’s crucifixion at noon, Night prayer / Compline and the Nunc DimittisRitual and repetition: responding to the “rote” objection; why repetition can become meaningful over timeWhat festivity looks like at The Academy: lessons & carols, stations of the cross, and house feasts, Feast of the Incarnation, and Feast of the ResurrectionKey Topics & TakeawaysFormation Through Practices: What we repeatedly do shapes what we love.Sacramental Imagination Reorients Education: Wonder and gratitude become central virtues of school life.Patterns of Church Applied to the School Day: Benedictine patterns and the daily offices provide a humane rhythm for students and faculty.Repetition Can Produce Spiritual Resilience: Words learned “by heart” may sustain faith in seasons when feelings fail.Festivity as Formative: Shared feasts and rituals can embody the gospel narrative in communal life.Healthy Leadership Protects Culture: Sustainable delegation and team-based responsibility are essential for long-term flourishing.Questions & DiscussionWhat “liturgies” are forming your students right now—outside of your intentions?Consider the repeated routines, spaces, technologies, and schedules in your school day. Identify one “secular liturgy” you want to counter-form with a Christian practice this term.What would change if your school treated reality as sacramental?Name one subject or habit you tend to “instrumentalize”. Discuss one concrete practice that helps students love that subject for its own sake—slow attention, gratitude, or wonder.How can daily prayer become the architecture of the school day rather than an add-on?Draft a simple rhythm (morning prayer, a noon remembrance, end-of-day prayer). Discuss what short forms (collects, call-and-response, sung pieces) would be realistic and faithful for your community.How do you respond to the concern that ritual is “rote” or inauthentic?Share a time when repetition became meaningful (music, athletics, family traditions, worship). Discuss what repetition can form that spontaneity often cannot—stability, shared language, and spiritual stamina.What does “festivity” look like in a way that forms virtue and wonder—not performance or spectacle?Choose one season (Advent, Lent, Eastertide, etc.) and design one practice (meal, hymn, reading, procession, art). Discuss how it teaches the gospel story through shared life.What leadership habits protect a school’s culture over decades?Identify one area where “delegation or death” feels real. Name one next step toward healthy team leadership and sustainable limits.Suggested ReadingDesiring the Kingdom by James K. A. SmithThe Festive School by Father Nathan CarrStudent Prayer Book by Father Nathan CarrThe Rule of St. Benedict by Saint BenedictOrthodoxy by G. K. ChestertonThe Book of Common PrayerRomans 1Note: Dr. Robert D. Crouse, whom Father Nathan Carr mentions as a professor in Trinity, Halifax, Nova Scotia, actually taught in the Classics Department at King's College and Dalhousie University. 

In this reflective episode, Christopher Perrin interviewed Andrew Kern, his long-time colleague and friend, President and CEO of The CiRCE Institute, in a wide-ranging conversation about the philosophy and practice of teaching. They delve into the meaning of truth—what it is, how it’s often misunderstood, and why it remains central to classical Christian education. Drawing from ancient sources and modern confusions, Perrin and Kern challenge the reduction of truth to mere facts, propositions, or private opinion. Instead, they present a more robust vision: truth as reality itself, made known through the Logos, and discoverable in every discipline, from science to poetry.Perrin and Kern explore how this deeper understanding of truth can liberate students, form character, and unify fragmented thinking in a disoriented age. They critique the cultural tendencies toward relativism, scientism, and technocracy, offering classical education as a hopeful and coherent response. Along the way, Perrin and Kern draw on Plato, Augustine, Pascal, and Sayers to recover a compelling view of truth that is beautiful, knowable, and formative. Listeners will be invited to rethink how we teach, how we learn, and how we live in pursuit of what is true.Listeners may also be interested in the book Unless the Lord Builds the House, as well as the Apprenticeship Program and courses taught by Andrew Kern available on ClassicalU. They can also learn more about the newly released book The Good Teacher and the accompanying courses.

In this memorable episode of The Christopher Perrin Show, Christopher welcomes Dr. Grant Horner and Karen Moore—two veteran classical educators and authors—for a spirited conversation about the power of language, memory, and the poetic imagination in Christian classical education. Together, they explore how reading, writing, and reciting great texts form not only the intellect but the soul, training students to love truth, beauty, and goodness through embodied habits of attention and delight. As a key method of embodied learning, they consider the importance of doing some teaching in situ and walking the ground where these events and stories originated.Drawing on decades of classroom experience and curriculum development, Dr. Horner and Moore discuss the importance of early exposure to Latin, the recovery of ancient rhetorical arts, and the integration of poetry into daily learning. Their reflections touch on everything from biblical literacy and etymology to Shakespeare, Cicero, and the Book of Common Prayer—showing how the classical tradition equips students not only to analyze language but to inhabit it with grace and conviction.Listeners will come away invigorated to cultivate memory, nourish imagination, and recover the lost arts of eloquence—beginning in their homes, schools, and homerooms.

In this special episode of The Christopher Perrin Show, Christopher welcomes Dr. Angel Parham, professor of sociology at the University of Virginia and co-author of The Black Intellectual Tradition. Together, they explore the often-overlooked legacy of classical learning in the Black intellectual tradition, tracing its vital contributions from figures like Anna Julia Cooper and Frederick Douglass to the modern classroom.Drawing on her own journey through homeschooling, historical sociology, and the founding of the Nyansa Classical Community, Dr. Parham advocates for a deeply integrated approach to classical education—one that honors the Mediterranean and African roots of the tradition while inviting all students, especially the marginalized, into its freeing and formative power. The conversation also touches on themes of cultural polarization, the liberating nature of reading and writing, and how ancient texts can shape a student's soul and imagination—especially when engaged through the timeless practice of keeping a commonplace book.Listeners will come away inspired to recover classical education as a unifying, deeply human tradition—and perhaps even begin a florilegium of their own.

In this episode, Dr. Perrin gives a foretaste from his forthcoming book with Carrie Eben, The Good Teacher, as he advocates for singing as a powerful and now neglected pedagogical tool. Drawing from traditional sources like Plato and Augustine, Scripture, and personal anecdotes, he explores how music—especially in the form of singing and chanting—can shape the soul, foster joy, and make learning permanent. Perrin traces the etymological and cultural significance of music (from the Greek muse and mousikē), noting how integral it once was to early education and soul formation. He challenges modern classical educators to break free from their limited educational upbringing and rediscover this method of teaching, particularly in the lower grades. Through vivid examples—such as his daughter’s ability to recall scripture, history, and Latin years later through song—Perrin demonstrates how singing enables children to internalize and retain knowledge in a joyful and embodied way. He urges educators to sing far more often than feels natural to the adult mind, to make use of existing resources, and to partner with others in creating musical material. The episode concludes with a compelling invitation: to teach in a way that aligns with the nature of children and the harmonious order of the cosmos—by singing what is true, good, and beautiful.

Delve into the essence of virtue and its pivotal role in education. Discover how classical teachings on human excellence have been overshadowed in modern learning. Explore the cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, and courage, and their relevance in today’s classrooms. The discussion unveils intellectual virtues like wonder and discipline that shape the holistic development of students. Join the quest to recover the lost vocabulary that defines true education and its purpose in fostering both character and intellect.