The Dishcast with Andrew Sullivan

David Frum needs little introduction; he’s a long-time writer at The Atlantic and the author of many books, the latest being Trumpocalypse and Trumpocracy. We cover a range of issues in this episode. You can listen to it right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed. To listen to two excerpts from my conversation with David — on the problems of mass immigration; and on our disagreements over Russiagate — head over to our YouTube page.Meanwhile, we got a ton of reader response to our episode with Michael Hirschorn, across a range of opinion. The first reader:Thank you for finally — FINALLY — having a conversation with someone like Michael. I am often maddened by you constantly banging on about wokeness, and though you concede (always as an aside, though) that there are problems with racism in America, you somehow never get around to exploring them. You like to yell at the left for painting everyone on the right as racist, yet you spend A LOT of time painting everyone on the left as “woke.” It’s tiresome, unproductive, and untrue.Which is why your conversation with Michael, who echoes nearly 100% of my own thoughts on these subjects, is a course correction for you that I appreciated. It showed why exploring issues of racism are still necessary and valid and why it isn’t just about “wokeness” or critical theory. It shows how if you got out on to the ground and into communities, and away from Twitter and a handful of people with the loudest microphones, you might find a left that doesn’t comport with your characterization of it. There are a lot of us who don’t care about the cesspool of social media and aren’t trying to get our op-eds into the NY Times, those of us who are honestly trying to right some wrongs without losing sight of the bigger picture — a messy, nuanced, but also hopeful picture. I sincerely hope you have more conversations with Michael or those like him in the future. Keep it up.Thanks. I definitely intend to add more conversations with lefties and critical theory stans. Many, however, don’t want to debate, because they believe that debating is itself a manifestation of “white supremacy”, if it isn’t loaded to compensate for white privilege. Because of my genetics, my views are, to a greater or lesser extent, illegitimate. The premise of my podcasts is that anyone can talk about anything and no one has any authority other than the cogency of their argument. This next reader was less aligned with Michael:Thank you for your courage in challenging some of the woke myths that Mr. Hirschorn seems to think are “obvious” — they absolutely are not. He seemed surprised that you challenged some of these but I am glad you did. These are extremely sensitive topics that many of us are afraid to even talk about. I am glad you did, and I hope you continue to do so.On to specifics, another reader:“A real effort to contend with race and racism in America” means everyone has to share the New Left’s redefinition of racism. Andrew, please don’t listen to Michael Hirschorn. There is nothing naive about you, and the fact that you did not spend your first 20 years in America has nothing to do with your ability to read and analyze what is really happening. I was born and raised here and have been liberal all my life until people like Mr. Hirschorn drove me away with their specious sloganeering. I find it astonishing that he asserts that Trump (whom I despise) is “openly racist”, and when asked for examples proceeds to give examples of Trump engaging in actions that are highly arguable and can only be tangentially disputed as racist. For example, the Muslim ban that may involve some stereotyping based on disproportional involvement in terrorism around the globe (in the same way all cops have been stereotyped as racists) — but it’s not “obviously openly racist”. Mr. Hirschorn then asserts that Trump’s exhortations to crack down on “law and order" cannot be “extricated” from racism. Who says? I am Latino and feel exactly the same way Trump does when it comes to law and order. I have very little sympathy for criminals, be they black or white. I’m with you. It may also be true that those of us who are immigrants can see American more clearly than natives, marinated in white guilt and shame. Another reader compares countries:I’m part of a Puerto Rican diaspora in Ohio and some of my best friends are naturalized Mexicans. We recently discussed how one of the best things about the United States is that one can count on the law and expect the order that American law enforcement (and the courts) provide. My friend added, “In this country, when one says no, it’s respected”. In Mexico, and to some extent in my native Puerto Rico, you either can’t count on the police or you have to actively defend yourself from them. For all the claims that Democrats make about being a voice for the immigrant community, they sure don’t understand the millions of immigrants in this country and why we do care about law and order — and not in any racist way.Many readers backed Michael by pointing to other examples in which they believe Trump has been “openly obviously” racist. One writes:When you asked Hirschorn for concrete examples, he got lost in the whole “law and order” thing. But he could’ve given way more concrete examples, such as Trump’s stalwart defense of Confederate monuments or him repeatedly refusing to simply condemn white supremacist groups. “Stand back and stand by”? There are non-racist arguments to defend keeping statues around, even if they echo a horrible past. Outside the British Parliament, there is a statue of Oliver Cromwell, for example, a genocidal, theocratic dictator. But part of British history. In England, if you wanted to remove any statue of person who opposed democracy, every statue of a king or queen would have to be taken down. Another reader points to “Trump’s false claim that ‘Arabs’ (not Muslims) in New Jersey were cheering 9/11, and years later telling members of The Squad to ‘go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came.’” Another adds, “Calling Third World countries mostly populated by darker skinned people ‘shithole countries.’” Another reader links to this USA Today piece from a few months ago that fact-checks a viral list of 28 of the most racist things that Trump has purportedly said. The summary:Of the 28 listed comments, Trump said 12 of them as plainly stated. Two he said but lack context. Four comments are disputed, eight are paraphrased from similar statements and two he did not say.Another reader zooms out:The word “racism” has been overused by the political and intellectual Left. It can now mean almost anything. In the name of “white guilt,” the political Left has proved ready to jettison its most cherished ideals: the rioting, looting and burning in the name of “Black Lives matter” was deemed okay because it was done by blacks and those supposedly allied to blacks. The warning to wear masks to avoid the spread of COVID-19 was dismissed by medical professionals in the name of fighting a false emergency of “racism.” Heaven forbid they should tell BLM that they can’t do anything they want to do. In Europe, the cherished ideals of feminism and gay rights are being tossed aside to accommodate the backward attitudes of many Muslim immigrants. Apparently rape and gay-bashing are only serious crimes if white men commit them. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

Michael (@hirschorn) is the Emmy-winning CEO of Ish Entertainment, which makes political documentaries, and the founder of The People PAC, which promotes democratic values. He’s also an old friend from Harvard, former house-mate, and one of the smartest people I know. We talk about race, class, the resistance, the Democrats, “deep canvassing,” the woke and the promise of the unwoke left. It gets pretty real at times.You can listen to the episode right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed. To listen to two excerpts from my conversation with Michael — on whether invoking race undermines liberal economic policy; and on whether Trump is actually “openly” racist or not — head over to our YouTube page.Meanwhile, a reader responds to the latest episode with Shadi Hamid, on the Capitol assault:You’ve put into words everything that I’m feeling. This monster’s misinformation campaign was so successful that even after the assault we witnessed on January 6, I have family members who are still justifying these events, because they remain utterly convinced the election was stolen from them. I am heartbroken for my country, and I’m having a hard time seeing the path forward just now. But please take care of yourself as best you can.Another reader also tries to cheer me up:I just listened to the Dishcast, which I enjoyed as I always do. At the end it was clear how hurt you were by the Ben Smith piece in the NYTimes. Just wanted to say — though I’m not sure it will help — that it was this piece that encouraged me to subscribe to the Weekly Dish. I thought you sounded fascinating, and thoughtful, and Smith wrote you off in a way that was more revealing about him and the new rules at the NYTimes than about you. If you’ve read the most-liked comments on that piece you’ll see this sentiment is widely shared. I say this as a long-time lefty who now feels alienated by the direction this movement has taken, and its puritanism on issues like identity politics. Thanks for all that you do to keep debate alive. Thank you. I’m used to this kind of thing, but obviously when directed by the New York Times, it stings. The solace is that the Times still publishes someone its chief media writer cannot defend, and that this newsletter has been such a huge success — speedily heading toward 100,000 paid and unpaid subscribers.This next reader sees eerie similarities between Trump and another strongman:If you look at Venezuela, the U.S. fits the pattern. First you have a rich, powerful country that for some reason goes in decline. Typically it is financial, like in Venezuela, and in our case, it was 9/11 combined with the 2008 Financial Crisis. This decline gives rise to a populist nationalist demagogue. In Venezuela’s case it was Hugo Chavez, in our case Donald Trump. This demagogue will rise through democratic means but then govern and cling to power through undemocratic means. This is received enthusiastically by the masses, so initially the autocrat’s popularity rises … until the decline is so severe that everybody will rebel. Except by then, it’s too late, and the regime degenerates into a dictatorship. I believe the U.S. is in the beginning stages of this, where Venezuela was with Chavez in 2001/02. Luckily Trump will be out, but we may be here again in four years when the aging Biden has to run for reelection against some Trump wannabe. Speaking of which, one last similarity: Venezuela’s last president elected before Chavez, under the so-called Fourth Republic, was also a past leader — in this case a former president, Rafael Caldera — who was way past his prime at *78 years old* — the same age as Biden. Caldera is still the oldest man Venezuela has ever elected. The similarities are CHILLING!Another reader is grimly hopeful:January 6, 2021 is a date that belongs next to only one other in American history: April 12, 1861, the firing on Ft. Sumter. Astonishingly — and I do mean astonishingly — I cannot think of a second comparable moment to set alongside what can only be described as the first salvos of actual civil war (9/11 and 12/7/41 and the British burning DC in 1814 were all foreign attacks). But as embarrassing as it was as a country on the global stage; as chilling as it was to watch the possible complicity of uniformed officers; as tragic as it was to know that people — possibly elected officials — were about to die; and as heartbreaking as it as to watch the world’s greatest temple to liberal democracy fall, I cannot help but hope against hope that this may break the fever in a way that, quite simply, nothing else could. Americans needed to SEE the inevitable result of all the lies and grievance and fascist cosplaying. It’s possible this country required not only the images of Charlottesville, or recorded phone calls extorting foreigners, or refusals to concede an election, but actual video of our radical tribalism swarming the Capitol.This is my hope too. But we’re not there yet. This last reader responds to my appearance on UnHerd’s Lockdown TV:I was very pleased to hear you refer to the woke ideas about global white supremacy as a “conspiracy”. I have been thinking for some months that while people on the right have their millenarian conspiracy theory in QAnon, people on the left have their talk of a cabal of white supremacists. But I haven’t yet heard anyone refer to the “white supremacist” narrative as a conspiracy.I recently delivered a lecture at the University of Cambridge that’s related to this, and wrote about it on Substack. My argument was that, just as the invention of the printing press brought on Reformations, so the invention of the internet is bringing on “Deformations”. Both marked “liminal stages” in society, during which all the norms of the culture are inverted, allowing millenarian cults to fill the vacuum as people tried to cope with the sense of disorientation. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

A senior fellow at Brookings and a contributing writer at The Atlantic, Shadi runs a podcast and pens articles with Damir Marusic at the Wisdom of Crowds. He’s been a strong advocate of the argument that American democracy is resilient, and that Trump never represented an existential threat to American democracy. We debated this before, so I asked him to come back and defend his case in the wake of the insurrection in Washington this week.I also began the podcast with an extemporaneous rant about Wednesday. I needed to get it off my chest.You can listen to the episode right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed. To listen to two excerpts from my conversation with Shadi — on the silver linings of the Capitol crisis, and on the hypocrisy of much of the left right now — head over to our YouTube page.Meanwhile, several readers respond to my Black Christmas conversation with Caitlin Flanagan:I hope your Christmas wasn’t too miserable. I thoroughly enjoyed your conversation with Caitlin. You did an excellent job of articulating the underlying philosophical truths and half-truths pervading the far left and Trumpian right. However, I have some criticisms. I agree with you, Douglas Murray and others who have pointed out that Wokeness is filling the Christianity-shaped hole in our society. A decrease in traditional faith has given rise to a new religion led by modern saints. I also agree that it is a faith devoid of the “good” parts of Christianity like forgiveness and individualism. However, this does not mean a return to classical religious thinking is the solution to the deficiencies of intersectionality. By asserting the credibility of the evidence-free foundation of Christian faith, you are providing cover for the equally unfalsifiable dogma of the Woke. By claiming that a belief in God watching over us is justified because it brings meaning, you excuse the belief that the ethereal patriarchy is what keeps women down. We must reject all irrational belief systems if we are to criticize any one of them, even if some are worse than others. Islam is worse than Christianity, but they are both unreasonable. Wokeness is worse than Catholicism, but they are both built on wishful, anti-scientific thinking.Another reader dissents from the other direction:Your articulation of the gift of your Catholic faith and upbringing, your gratitude for the Church’s ancient traditions and ritual, and the powerful paradoxes of the Christian story — these things I embrace, and I share in the wonder. But I confess to wincing when you (not infrequently) make a snide or dismissive remark about the Church of England or the Episcopal Church. As a gay man and “cradle” Episcopalian, who grew up in the American South with nothing but support and acceptance from his parish clergy, I find this brand of Roman Catholic snobbery a bit unattractive.Yes, I know, that the Anglican Church came into being for “political” reasons in Tudor times and that the Episcopal Church was born in Revolutionary America because the Scottish bishops would recognize its episcopacy and the Anglican bishops (for obvious reasons) would not. But the Roman Catholic Church — from the Spanish Inquisition to the brutal colonization of the Americas — has hardly been an apolitical and pure institution.My Anglo-Catholic (Episcopal) parish in Hollywood is ritually more rigorous with the liturgy than any Roman church in the diocese (we even have a Latin Mass on Saturdays, for God’s Sake!) In the Plague years here in LA, it was a singular haven for gay men seeking solace in a traditional church when the local Roman Catholic bishops were disciplining their priests for trying to embrace and minister to suffering and dying gay members.And, in the podcast, when you extolled your wonderfully diverse parish in DC and the Roman Catholic Church in general as being uniquely “inclusive” ... well, I beg to differ, at least a little. Not too many years ago, a Jewish friend of mine returned from a trip back East to visit his ailing father, only to find his 31-year-old Latin-American partner dead in their home from alcohol poisoning. (He had struggled with his addiction for years, sabotaging a promising legal career.) I was among their friends who attended the funeral mass at a huge and packed Roman Catholic parish church where the family had worshiped. The celebrant and members of the family in their homilies praised the many virtues of the deceased young man ... without mention of the partner or their relationship. And the priest extended a welcome to guests — but reminded us that, if we were not baptized Roman Catholics, we were not to come to the altar for communion.It was a strange sensation, being at the mass of a friend in that church — every word, each prayer and movement of the liturgy intimately familiar to me — and yet being uninvited to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. I’ve rarely felt so “excluded,” in a way. I believe to be truly catholic is to be truly welcoming to all, respectful of all faith traditions, trying not to get caught up in a hubristic regard for the theological or aesthetic superiority of our branch of Christian worship.Another reader recommends an alluring book:During your recent podcast with Caitlin Flanagan you mentioned that — forgive me I don’t have verbatim — you have embraced “the new” (e.g. jumping in new forms of journalism) but you also really appreciate “the old” (e.g. traditions). This brought to mind the book, Why Old Places Matter, by Thomas Mayes, of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. Tom beautifully articulates that old places give us, among other elements for social wellbeing, Continuity, Memory, Beauty, History, Sense of Sacred, Community, Ancestors ...Another reader zooms out with a much needed dissent:After falling a few episodes behind, I caught up on the Dishcast this weekend, which, in general, I rather enjoy. But I’m noticing a theme: most of your guests share with you the general premise that wokeness is bad and illiberal, the effect of which is sort of an ironic one: many of your conversations become an echo chamber of criticism of wokeness.Now, yes, some of your episodes haven’t even touched upon the theme, such as your conversation Olivia Nuzzi, which, incidentally, was wonderful. But the dichotomy is that you toggle between focusing on a guest’s expertise and expressing mutual exasperation with wokeness. I too love exploring every nuance of the rising illiberal tide, and I think we, your audience, get some sort of catharsis from you discussing it. But you may make more headway on the subject engaging with folks who are influenced by or sympathetic to critical theory. The podcast presents an opportunity for that in a way your column does not.Perhaps your answer is that you can’t engage with someone who is fundamentally illiberal. Unfortunately, that would suppose a binary between wokeness and anti-wokeness that doesn’t always play out at the level of the individual (though it usually does at the level of a Twitter mob). The best evidence of this is your two podcast episodes on The Ezra Klein Show. In practice, Ezra Klein is about as liberal as they come, hosting people of all sorts of ideology and background. But he is often sympathetic to critical theory-inspired viewpoints. And that’s what makes those conversations with you so fascinating — that he has to concede some points to you on the subject and you to him, painting a more nuanced picture of the situation. The true liberal must believe that their opponent argues from a place of earnestness, believing that the small concessions which debate forces reveal the kernel of truth hidden in each side. Therefore, in the case of Woke v. liberals, it is the liberal’s obligation to engage because only the liberal has the faith that free dialogue will lead to progress.I don’t think the illiberalism involved in being a card carrying member of the social justice left comes from a bad place. The justice part is in there for a reason. Every time I get frustrated by the orthodoxy of my woke friends — I’m 24, live in cities and went to a private university — I try to remember that. I would love to hear you explore the common aspirations between yourself and the proponents of wokeness as fiercely as you investigate the wrongheadedness and unintended consequences of their methods. Yes, as the reader anticipates, it’s been difficult to find good-faith adherents to critical theory who are willing to come on the podcast, but we’re committed to doing so, and it’s a big shortcoming of the Dishcast so far. If you’d like to suggest a woke guest prepared to debate the issues in good faith, we’re open to any suggestions. I want to do this. Stay tuned. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

Caitlin is a longtime writer at The Atlantic and the author of several books — the most recent is “Girl Land” — and she’s a frequent guest-host on the Femsplainers podcast. I’ve long been a super-fan. To see why, here are two recent essays Caitlin wrote — one on the dark lessons of Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer, and one on the abortion debate.We share a Catholic faith and encounters with mortality, but Caitlin’s brushes with near-death have been far more acute than my own. Her extraordinary poise and deep humanity are on full display in our chat. I’m so grateful for her time.You can listen to the episode right away in the audio player above (or click the dropdown menu to add the Dishcast to your podcast feed). Read the full transcript here. To listen to two excerpts from my conversation with Caitlin — on the recent reemergence of her cancer; and on the similarities between the AIDS crisis and back-alley abortions — head over to our YouTube page. Since I’m on Christmas break this week, here’s my new book review for the New York Times, on Edmund Fawcett’s new tour d’horizon of conservatism and its history in the US, Britain, Germany and France. Money quote on the end of Britain’s inclusion in the European Union:Enoch Powell remains a fascinating figure, especially now. A Tory member of Parliament, and briefly in the cabinet in the early 1970s, he insisted, against his party, on the nation-state as inviolable and solely authoritative, held that nonwhites would be forever alien in Britain and profoundly opposed the project of the nascent European Union. His views, hugely popular among the Tory masses but deemed taboo by party elites at the time, were not so much countered as repressed. And like many repressed ideas, they eventually came to the surface, long after his death, in the anti-immigrant, nationalist fervor of the Brexit campaign. As Buchanan was to Trump, Powell was to Brexit.Meanwhile, a reader responds to our latest episode, with Meghan Daum:You two talked about 2015 as the year when Woke culture took off, but I started to see it creep up in 2010. I, an Autistic activist at the time, wanted autistic voices to have a say in our politics. I founded the largest and one of the most active chapters of ASAN (Autistic Self Advocacy Network). One of the things I started to see was an incipient generation of Autistic activists. Just look up Lydia Brown, Kassiane Sibley and Nick Walker. They all write with erudition, and I do agree and have agreed with much of what I read. But between the lines, there were ideas that were highly inane, with some being downright stupid: the idea that an individual can self diagnose themselves autistic; the idea that all “so-called” autistics were the same and part of a distinct group; the idea and insistence that they use autistic “people” as opposed to autistic “individuals” (a word better suited for the historical self-determination movements within the disability communities); and the idea that all autistics were equally impacted by autism (which left out many individuals who were severely impacted).Facebook was our organizing engine (before it was sexy to use Facebook to broadcast politics) and we trafficked in identity politics. We felt a spark of danger and revolution in positing these ideas, and as young people, we knew that we were young and maybe a bit irrational. Almost all of us were burgeoning socialists/anti-capitalists, and many of the ideas were rooted in postmodernism. A lot of this came from a feeling of helplessness in the wake of the austerity of the 2010s, the lagging economy, the lack of opportunity, the lack of social services. For many of us, we felt that if we organized, we could change the world as we know it. Make no mistake: the woke generation started within the margins of the Great Recession. They thought to themselves, if we can’t change the world through government programs, can we at least change the culture.I saw the tides turning when the movement dallied more in how to be as radical as possible, as opposed to how they could get things done. I left the movement in 2013, as I knew that I wasn’t ever fully welcome. Being diagnosed young as autistic, with papers to show, never fit as a future leader in the movement, as I didn’t look the part.That said, we got political work done that positively impacted autistics throughout the United States. I look at the articles that were written about us from time to time in publications such as Truth Out, Huffington Post, and all of the news networks within the state we did business. Things happened. Thanks for the work you do. I’m still progressive, but your ideas bring clarity and understanding to my life, each and every week. Keep being outspoken and without fear.  This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

Meghan is the author of many books — the latest being The Problem with Everything: My Journey Through the New Culture Wars — and she’s the host of her own podcast, Unspeakable. I hadn’t met Meghan until this week, but it was a pleasure. We talked about our generation; what it feels like, if anything, to be a man or woman; the truthful hyperboles of wokeness and Trump, the poison of Twitter, the lessons of facing death early, and the benefits of solitude. It was a blast. To listen to two excerpts from my conversation with Meghan — on the difference between gender outliers and gender outsiders; and how both of us had near-death experiences — head over to our YouTube page. Listen to the whole episode right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed on multiple platforms.Meanwhile, a reader looks back at our most recent episode:I feel like Marusic and Hamid were the Colmeses to your Hannity; they were too polite and too bowled over to really respond strongly to your points — though Marusic did rally at the end. I should start by stating my credentials: I have none, aside from the fact that I have been teaching AP Government for about 20 years, and a course in Western political theory for about 15. That being said, I have a few points. 1) While Trump was a norm-busting jerk that has taken complete control of his party, this is only an aberration when we look at modern politics, particularly the centrist consensus of the post-WWII era. Up until the 20th century, all sorts of crazy excesses went on throughout US politics, ranging from cooping to routine brawls on election day to paramilitaries suppressing the votes of blacks in the South. And Andrew Jackson called his defeat a “corrupt bargain” and raged against JQ Adams until defeating him four years later. All this is to say, America survived.2) This brings me to the point of American survival. You have sounded so negative about American democracy and referenced the section of Plato’s Republic where Socrates argues that the tyrant naturally follows the democrat. You also reference the fall of the Roman Republic. But there is a major difference between our modern society and those of the ancients: the overwhelming majority of the people in pre-industrial societies were far poorer than any poor person in a modern democracy. These poor people (still found in developing nations) were one harvest away from watching their children starve to death. These individuals were far more susceptible to tyranny because they were desperate — just look at all the shenanigans that happened with the grain dole during the late years of the Roman Republic. To quote Bob Marley, “them belly full but we hungry / a hungry mob is an angry mob.” This is the reason why democracies were always so unstable prior to the modern era. This is why Rousseau proclaimed that democracy was a government only for angels. But if you want to look at the ancient world, look at Aristotle. Aristotle recognized that the key to building a successful state was a strong and robust middle class.  Indeed, Aristotle’s best form of government run by the many isn’t even called a “democracy” at all — he calls it polity or constitutional government. Again, Aristotle takes time to define democracy as rule by the poor. So, while the framers of the US Constitution were very worried about the rise of tyranny, they needn't have feared because the USA would turn out to be the first nation defined by its dominant middle class. This is a long way of saying that we are not nearly as susceptible to tyranny as you say. Our poor are fat and not thin. Can you show me any example of a prosperous democratic nation turning to tyranny? If it does happen, it is only after the nation in question is brutalized economically (and politically) as in the case of Weimar Germany. While the close of factories has decimated blue-collar communities, and while bifurcation of the American populace is something to be feared, our poor are not nearly as desperate and hungry as the poor plebeians of Rome or the hoi polloi of ancient Athens.This takes me to point (3), which is that the antics of Trump turn out to be not fascism but hucksterism. Republicans must participate in his acts of kayfabe, but everyone knows that it’s all b******t. And Trump is the consummate bullshitter. If you haven’t done so, I encourage you to watch this one-minute clip of Trump on Letterman in 2015:  There’s one moment when Letterman nails Trump on the source of his ties. I know you are a classics man, so I can tell you that it rivals the scene in Republic where Thrasymachus blushes. This is the real Donald Trump: a bullshitter, a faker, a conman, a huckster. The fact that such a man has succeeded is alarming, but we are still a rich, comfortable, powerful nation. He’ll rant and he’ll rage, but he’ll go — just like the loser in any good professional wrestling match. And then get ready for the yawps and bellows as he gins up the views for the 2024 rematch.I am not arguing that the United States will last forever. We are certainly vulnerable and if our economy should actually collapse (as it seemed it might in 2008) or we end up with a COVID-22 that kills 50 percent of the afflicted, then katy bar the door. But we have not yet gotten to that point. Trump memed himself into the presidency, but I don’t think that America will meme itself into tyranny. It’s not so much that American institutions are so strong as the fact that the null hypothesis usually holds — especially given the lack of the kind of hardship that was widespread and common in the ancient world — indeed in all preindustrial societies. Not to digress, but this is also the reason why the French Revolution so quickly degraded and eventually spawned an autocrat.I have to say that is the most effective counter to my worries about our democracy that I have ever read. It’s so great to have my readers, mainly far better informed than I, make the Dish as rich in context as it is. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

This week I did a simulcast episode with Damir and Shadi that will also air on their own podcast, Wisdom of Crowds. We discussed and debated the resilience of American democracy in this fraught time — with some sharp disagreements. (You can listen to the episode right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed. To listen to two excerpts from my long conversation with Damir and Shadi — on Trump’s missed opportunities to become a dictator; and on the current dangers of authoritarianism — head to our YouTube page.)Looking back at our popular episode with Dana Beyer, a reader writes:I learned so much from this conversation. The information about how a trans individual can be created due to pre-natal pharmacological interference was extremely useful. Beyer’s point that we’re introducing all sorts of endocrine disrupters into the gestational process is really important. We’re imposing all sorts of problems on fetuses that cause lifelong suffering (another example is learning disabilities). This needs to be considered seriously.On a personal note, I would have liked a bit more discussion of the David Reimer case and John Calapinto’s book about Reimer, As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as A Girl — which is a different matter, though aligned of course. It’s also a cautionary tale about therapeutic arrogance and its horrific consequences.Another reader:Regarding your guest post by Katie (I’m a huge fan and a BARpod subscriber) and your convo with Dana, it’s so refreshing to hear an honest conversation about the limits of trans ideology and how it relates to how trans people view themselves and the world. I am trans myself, but only at the very beginnings of my journey (okay maybe a bit further than the beginning), and a major stumbling block for me has been my dissent from the dominant narratives of transness:* Identifying as a woman* Born in the wrong body* Trans women are biological women* Trans women have always been womenThose narratives (while surely helpful for some) just strike me as unscientific or grossly essentialist. If you “identify as a woman” and what you identify with is clothes, social roles or behaviors, what does that mean for biological women who don’t identify with those things? How can I as a trans person stake a greater or equal claim to womanhood based on those things?For me, gender is inextricably related to sex; it is how humans signal sex to prospective mates. As a trans person, desire to physically transition requires a belief in the binary in order for that desire to make sense. If the binary isn’t real, what’s the need to change? It’s simply dishonest for me to deny I am biologically male and experience dysphoria since that is exactly what I am. Asking 99 percent of the populace to change its metaphysical understanding of sex and gender to accommodate a very small minority is crazy when there’s no need to do so to ensure trans people are treated with dignity and respect.Another reader touches on a super controversial topic: I attended a panel discussion in 2015, the 40th and final year of the Michigan Women’s Music Festival. It was a panel of detransitioners. Many openly discussed transitioning to avoid the onslaught of unwanted male attention (for many before they were able to understand it, buffer themselves from it, or reject it). Abigail Shrier discusses this, explaining that many of the “transmen” she interviewed had no real desire to be cis men, as much as a desire to not be read as women. They saw being read as male in the public sphere as a way to escape the sexualized response to their existence. Many had already lived through sexual trauma, assault, rape.Another trans reader:There are so many great things in your conversation with Dana Beyer that make this something I want to share with other people in my life who maybe don’t entirely understand “the trans issue”, or conflate it with the whole non-binary/queer thing. I’m just glad that 20 years ago it was relatively straightforward for a middle-class trans person like me to get hormones and reassignment/corrective surgery. In my opinion, the main trans battle outstanding is to make that treatment equally accessible to poor and working-class people.There are aspects of what you and Beyer discussed where I disagree, but for much of the podcast I was practically cheering along. It’s so refreshing to finally be able to hear people speak sensibly on these topics. I can’t tell you how much it means to me to hear this after that miserable black hole of a few weeks ago when supposed trans allies were raging away mindlessly, ignoring what I had to say.In case you are interested, here is a good article on sex/gender segregation in sports. I think it’s a red herring to make this into a trans issue. I think it’s fair to argue that segregation by sex or gender is inherently problematic — it’s not about cis versus trans athletes. Personally I like the idea of moving toward a utopia where we don’t have segregated sports, or indeed any other segregated spaces, but I understand that to be a radical position and I know it will take a long time to get there (if we ever do).This next reader, on the other hand, is grateful for segregated sports:I am a 62-year-old white, hetero woman (biological). I consider myself a feminist and somewhat gender critical. I have a trans woman friend that I have know before she transitioned. She is a former neighbor of mine and moved to DC as a government contractor, but we stayed close on Facebook. I followed her through her transition and have always been in total support of her life change and self-actualization.After her transition, she took up bicycle cycling, and I was supportive of her achievements. She won almost every race she competed in. Then, I started to think about her podium wins. I am a former high school basketball player (I am 6' 2" and played the varsity center position) who won the right to play interscholastic because of the passage of Title IX in 1973. Title IX changed my life and gave me opportunities that I never would have had without it.So I started to get angry at my friend’s wins. I would see the women standing beneath her on the podium with their heads down and frowning because they knew that a biological man had beat them. I recognize her as a trans woman. I believe that she should have every right that any human being has. She should be safe, loved, cared for, allowed equal housing and employment like any human being should have.BUT. I have a problem with trans women competing against biological women in sports. I have a problem with boys competing with girls. I have a problem with boys/men who have not undergone any transition competing in women’s sports. The IOC has just passed a ruling that states that a person does not have to have reassignment surgery or undergo any hormone treatments to compete in the sex of their choosing.I made the grave error of expressing my opinions on my personal Facebook page. I own a small business — a food truck. I don’t know who it was, but someone (and it was a so-called “friend”) called me out and took screenshots of comments taken out of context to harm me and my business. I am still thriving since this happened in June, but not without death threats, boycotts, public shaming, etc. for me stating that it is unfair for men to compete with women because trans women are biological men and cannot change that. They have an unfair advantage. Period. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

Olivia is the brilliant 27-year-old Washington correspondent for my old haunt, New York Magazine, who has been covering all things Trump. I talked with her about the man who has defined so much of the news these past five years. (You can listen to the episode right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed. To listen to two excerpts from my conversation with Olivia — about the first time she met Trump; and on whether he’s a germaphobe or just a snob to the unwashed masses — head over to our YouTube page.)Meanwhile, a reader sounds off on the previous episode with Matt Yglesias, author of the new book, One Billion Americans: The Case For Thinking Bigger:One billion Americans? I shudder to think of it. Has Mr. Yglesias not been to China and India and witnessed the crowds, the trash, the pollution and loss of nature there — much less the environmental devastation that would result from one billion human beings gorging resources with the customary appetite of Americans?Fifty years ago I moved from the Northeast to California to enjoy the wide open spaces of the West: the spacious skies, fruited plains, and amber waves of grain of America the beautiful. Alas, since that time our population has doubled, our exurbs have metastasized, and 70% of our wildlife has disappeared. Practically every problem that haunts California now — homelessness, high prices, electricity blackouts, fires due to global warming — has its roots in overpopulation. So do the immigration and refugee crises that are undermining stability and stirring up nativist backlash worldwide.By all means let’s be more open to immigrants, but enough is enough. There are three times as many human beings on this planet than when I was born. One billion Americans is a recipe for dystopia. Matt responds:California’s problems don’t stem from overpopulation (it’s about a third as dense as Connecticut) but from the underbuilding of housing in its already developed cities. As I discuss in the book, for example, Los Angeles invested a considerable sum of money into building the LA Metro into what’s now actually one of the most extensive rail transit systems in America. But they didn’t change zoning laws in a complementary way to put big apartment buildings near the stations. Consequently ridership is low, and the pattern of housing scarcity, high prices, and sprawl pressure continues. All throughout the hyper-expensive Bay Area, land use is dominated by mandatory single-family zoning that makes rowhouses and even modest sized apartments illegal. This leads, again, to high prices and sprawl with all the attendant problems. Another reader praises “the smart and interesting conversation with Yglesias”:The part of the episode that keeps striking me is how serious publications are disallowing words like “looting” or “rioting” when precisely these things are happening. This “woke” language censoring is, I believe, damaging and undermining the efforts of those who may be marching or protesting for change and doing so in a peaceful way.When the quasi or fully criminal disrupters are not being called out for what they are doing (vandalizing, looting), but we hear that police need to be “defunded,” it appears more and more Americans who otherwise do not align with Trump and his abhorrent rhetoric, go in his/their direction. The Left has/had a perfect opportunity to garner more moderate support in this country, and seem to be doing everything in their power to push it away, precisely because we are being held (cancellation) hostage by the “Woke.” Perhaps we should stop looking at how deranged Trump is, and start seeing that we too are being forced to radicalization under penalty of a social media execution.Thanks for being willing to have THAT conversation. Perhaps it can only be had now by those of us Cancelled, and we need to lead the way. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

Dana is a retired surgeon, a mother, a trans rights advocate, and the former executive director (and current board member) of Gender Rights Maryland. She’s also been on the boards of two Jewish LGBT organizations, A Wider Bridge and Keshet, and has blogged extensively for HuffPo. We’ve been friends for a long time, and I thought it could only help the debate a little to have a spirited but also humane debate about trans issues — as they have been, and as they are now, in a “critical theory” world. We need to talk about this civilly. We need to air genuine questions. As this subject is close to under siege in the West, I’m going to try and air it out every now and again, with a variety of guests, trans and non-trans, gender-critical and woke. (You can listen to the episode right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed. To listen to three excerpts from my conversation with Dana — on the mysteries of gender and the science of sex; on the tensions within “LGBTQ”; and on the excesses of queer activism — head over to our YouTube page.)Coincidentally, last week we got an email from a long-time reader who identifies as a “gender critical trans person”:As you know from previous correspondence, I have been critical of “cancel culture” being much of a threat to society, since it seems to only be an issue in certain small corners of academia and the pundit class. Additionally, many of the canceled writers moved to a self-publishing model which left them at least as popular as they were before, so who cares?But last week I had a “then they came for me” moment.One of the latest journalists who has been canceled is a largely apolitical wargaming- and simulations-focused writer who made the mistake of asking a question about gender in an article about an in-game radio host being removed due to the performer’s alleged real-world transphobia. Apparently that was enough for him to also be declared transphobic, and for his column of 12 years to be suspended. No doubt he will find another place to write — or maybe he won’t — but as a long-time subscriber of the publication who canceled him, I am deeply frustrated at the summary dumping of an otherwise respected writer for not implicitly knowing that to breathe the words “gender critical” is now considered taboo.Please keep writing about this. Personally I still think you focus too much on “wokeness” as the core problem. I don’t think that’s fair. Many of the views in that arena are perfectly reasonable and deserve to be aired. The real problem is silencing of any opposing views. That can only serve to radicalize ordinary people who inadvertently get caught in the crossfire.That reader also contributed to a Dish thread in 2014 called “Engaging The T” (for transgender), dissenting against my initial view that it was perfectly legitimate to ask cover-girl Laverne Cox about whether she had had reassignment surgery:I underwent sex reassignment surgery in my early 20s. For the subsequent 15 years, I have had to field questions about the most intricate details of my sex life and the function and appearance of my new plumbing. Complete strangers have offered me money to see or touch my vagina. Other men propose sex “so I can see what it’s like”. This is the harsh reality of being a MTF trannie — we get to experience all the lecherous advances that regular women do, plus the even more brazen and thoughtless objectification from those who see us as little more than fetish toys. I can completely understand high-profile trannies not wanting to go there.The truth is, although getting surgery seems like the most important thing in the world during transition, after it’s over it becomes such an insignificant part of who we are. We are not defined by our junk. Post-transition we are just normal people with normal lives and everyday problems. I don’t want to talk to strangers about my genitalia any more than any other woman — or man — would. I’m no prude, but honestly, there are way more interesting things going on in my life.As a general rule, I agree with you that the trans-whatever community has become overly neurotic and that it spends way too much energy policing language and trying to distance itself from “gay culture”, but wanting to take the public focus away from surgery is not a part of that. Sure, gay guys f**k other men, but they aren’t asked in high-brow interviews what it’s like to take it up the ass. Why should transsexual women be asked what it’s like to have a vagina? Leave that for the tabloids and the medical journals.I replied to that email at the time:I’m really grateful for my readers explaining this in more detail and I better see now why a trans identity is what matters, not how radically that identity has been implemented physically. And of course I can see how those questions can seem invasive and violating. I get it better now. Which is why a provocative but sincere debate as we’ve been having here can lead to greater understanding. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

Matt Yglesias, contrarian progressive, joins the Dishcast to discuss the fallout of the 2020 election and his new book, “One Billion Americans,” a patriotic case for making America greater by inviting more immigrants. In the episode we talk about the 2020 election, wokeness and media, the cancel culture on the right, the progressives who find patriotism hokey, the black voters who support Biden more than white liberals do, Matt’s dissent over my use of “Christianists,” the importance of real diversity in newsrooms, and the lack of it in places like the NYT. Matt also describes how taken aback he was by the progressive backlash over his piece, “Black Lives Matter activism is working,” which celebrated the fact that police shootings of black Americans declined after Ferguson. To listen to that excerpt, along with another one discussing pro-Trump minorities, head to our YouTube page.(You can listen to the episode right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed, allowing all future episodes to come right to your smartphone.)Thanks for all the reader feedback over the Dishcast so far. At first we had some complaints over the volume levels, since podcasts tend to run quieter as an industry standard, and it’s awkward talking directly into mics, but we’ve adjusted some things and hope this new episode hits the sweet spot. As with everything Dish, the podcast is a work in progress. Here’s a reader responding to the episode with Coleman Hughes:Best part of the podcast: When you interrupted Coleman. You corrected him and said it was “LGBTQ-PLUS, you bigot!” That’s good times! And it was dialogue. More back-and-forth with the podcast would be nice. At times, it seemed like the conversation was a taking-turns of 4-minute monologues.2nd best part: You talked about how every gay person is born almost with a tabula rasa of what life is like as a gay person in America. And because of that, there's little cultural/historical gay culture passed down to you. And because of that, individual gay people have a unique individual perspective of America’s treatment of minorities.And that got Coleman excited. You could tell his mind perked up at this novel insight. Which led to his best part of the podcast: talking about how it’s not quite the same for a young black person as it is for a young gay person, but it is becoming more so. The level of racism he faces is less than his father faced, which was less than his grandfather faced, etc.Anyway, good job in your 2nd podcast. Advice: More debate. Think of your favorite debates with Hitch. Push your guests’ views. Advice: More lefties. Leftist ideology needs to be challenged, and I nominate you as a champion to do it. Get Ezra. Get Maddow. Get Maher (not a Lefty lefty). Get MSNBC people. Get people with whom you disagree strongly.Good advice, and stay tuned. Hopefully my conversation with Yglesias assuaged this next reader a bit: Your podcast with Coleman Hughes was enjoyable, and I agree with your views around the “woke” movement and how the term “white supremacy” has permeated our society in a way that is damaging to our democracy. However, I kept thinking how powerful the podcast would have been if you had had a moderate progressive voice to add to the conversation. I don’t mean someone like AOC, but maybe Pete Buttigieg or Andrew Yang, or a center-left voice from a red state I haven’t heard of. Lately, I have been drawn to the center right so I can listen and reflect on some persuasive arguments. I am sick and tired of the extremes and just recently canceled my subscription to the NYT. You, more than a lot of people I listen to, could build that bridge between the center left and the center right. We need a movement in this country, and its voices like yours that contribute to that debate.As always, keep the feedback and dissent coming, as well as recommendations for guests and topics: dish@andrewsullivan.com. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe

Brian Muraresku is the author of the new book The Immortality Key, currently the #10 audiobook on the NYT Best Seller list and the #9 hardcover on Amazon’s non-fiction list. A collection of reviews can be found on Brian’s website. My own review is here. The Immortality Key, his first book, examines the pivotal role that psychedelics may have played in the origins of Western civilization, first among the ancient Greeks and then early Christians. This is not some kooky-ass book from some hippie who has decided that Jesus was tripping. It is a book of rigorous scholarship, textual analysis, botanical chemistry — you name it — all the skills of modern science to try to understand something that humans have always understood and has been part of humanity forever. I cannot recommend this book enough. And we had a wonderful conversation.(You can listen right away in the audio player embedded above, or right below it you can click “Listen in podcast app” — which will connect you to the Dishcast feed, allowing all future episodes to come right to your smartphone. If you want to first listen to a four-minute teaser of Brian’s episode, go here.) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com/subscribe