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This interview was originally published on July 11, 2014. Mr. Hever says Israel sells weapons and equipment of repression to countries with extreme inequality.

This interview was originally published on July 10, 2014. Mr. Hever says in colonial conditions the master fears and hates the servants who might rise up and demand their rights.

This interview was originally published on July 13, 2014. Mr. Hever says the occupiers always want peace – a peace that strengthens the status quo.

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Hosted by Paul Jay.Why the Soviet Union Imploded - Jeffrey Sommers (pt 1)Why the Soviet Union Imploded - Jeffrey Sommers (pt 2) TranscriptL"} Historian Jeffrey Sommers analyzes the plunder of public resources in the ‘90s and how the Putin-led state has embraced a toxic mix of religion and nationalism. Hosted by Paul Jay. Why the Soviet Union Imploded – Jeffrey Sommers (pt 1)Why the Soviet Union Imploded – Jeffrey Sommers (pt 2) The Russian Oligarchy and the “Civilization State” The Roots of American Fascism and the Domestic Objectives of the Cold War – Peter Kuznick pt 2 Paul Jay on 9/11 We Are Living in Oppenheimer’s Worst Nightmare Oppenheimer: U.S. Developed First-Strike Weapon and Used Japan to Prove it – Kuznick and Jay Part 2: Debt and the Collapse of Antiquity – Michael Hudson Debt and the Collapse of Antiquity – Michael Hudson (pt 1/2) 44 Years in Prison, Still a Revolutionary – Eddie Conway Dies on Feb. 13, 2023 Mini Doc: Why I am Opposed to the War in Vietnam – Martin Luther King Is Russian War in Ukraine “Similar” to 1962 U.S. Blockade of Cuba? – Daniel Ellsberg (pt 2/2) Risking Nuclear War to Avoid Humiliation – Ellsberg (pt 1/2) Why the Soviet Union Imploded – Jeffrey Sommers (pt 2) Why the Soviet Union Imploded – Jeffrey Sommers (pt 1) Gorbachev Paved Way for Oligarchs – Aleksandr Buzgalin JFK’s Canadian Coup Stand on Guard for Whom? – Canada and NATO On Conspiracy and War – Paul Jay pt 1/3 Paul Jay on 9/11 Why I am Opposed to the War in Vietnam – Martin Luther King Why I am Opposed to the War in Vietnam – Martin Luther King Nuclear War is the Most Urgent Threat – Andrew Cockburn pt 2/2 The Making of Global Capitalism with Leo Panitch Risking Apocalypse for the Spoils of War – Andrew Cockburn pt 1/2 Canadian Profits and Nuclear Armageddon Pt 1 Bill Black pt 9/9 — The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One Confessions of a New York Times Washington Correspondent – Bob Smith Pt 2/2 Fannie Lou Hamer and the Racist Dixiecrats – Bob Moses on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 6/9 The Road to Freedom Summer – Bob Moses on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 5/9 Why the Right Attacks Critical Race Theory – Gerald Horne Reagan, the Media and the United States of Amnesia – “The Reagans” Part 5 “The Most Dangerous Man” Turns 90 – Peter Kuznick on Daniel Ellsberg Is Trumpism Fascism? – Paul Street YouTube Censorship and Now What’s Happening in Kansas – Thomas Frank The Democratic Party and the War Machine – Vijay Prashad What’s the Matter with America? – Thomas Frank Demagogues: From McCarthy to Trump Why Did Americans Accept Barbaric Slaughter of Japanese Civilians? – Peter Kuznick Liberal Elites Will Create Conditions for Another Trump – Thomas Frank (3/3) Corp. Dems Idolize FDR, but Hate His Policies and the Populists That Supported Him -Thomas Frank (2/3) Populism is Not Mob Rule – Thomas Frank (1/3) Unprecedented Intervention by Military Leaders Against Trump PR Stunt Convert Military to Green Production, or Perish – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 13/13 Dismantle the American Doomsday Machine – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 12/13 The Doomsday Machine and Nuclear Winter – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 11/13 A Strategy of War Crimes, Killing Civilians to Win a War – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 10/13 The Discovery That Should Have Changed the Cold War – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 9/13 Once Fired, There’s No Calling a Nuke Back – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 8/13 U.S. Refuses to Adopt a Nuclear Weapon No First Use Pledge – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI 7/13 U.S. Planned Nuclear First Strike to Destroy Soviets and China – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 6/13 Russian Doomsday Machine an Answer to U.S. Decapitation Strategy – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 5/13 The Largest Act of Terrorism in Human History – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 4/13 Truman Delayed End of WWII to Demonstrate Nuclear Weapons – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 3/13 Hitler Wouldn’t Risk Doomsday, But The United States Did – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 2/13 The Doomsday Machine: The Big Lie of the Cold War – Daniel Ellsberg on RAI Pt 1/13 Why Does the West Hate Putin? – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (10/12) Why is Putin so Popular When People are so Poor? – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (9/12) Is Putin’s Rule a Dictatorship? – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (8/12) Putin is Anointed King, but Big Capital has the Real Power – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (7/12) Shock Without the Therapy: A New Russia is Born in Chaos and Plunder – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (6/12) I Returned from Vacation to Find the Soviet Union had Collapsed – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (5/12) Turning Power into Money, the End of the Soviet Union – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (4/12) Communism and Consumerism – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (3/12) Success and Mutation in the Soviet Union – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (2/12) Growing Up in the U.S.S.R. – RAI with Aleksandr Buzgalin (1/12) Clinton, Blair, and Obama Destroyed the Idealism of Politics – Gabriel Byrne on RAI Pt 3/4 The Miners Strike Taught Me to Think Critically – Gabriel Byrne on RAI Pt 2/4 From Priesthood to Actor to Activist – Gabriel Byrne on RAI Pt 1/4 RAI with Former Weatherman Bill Ayers – Pt 3/3 RAI with Former Weatherman Bill Ayers Pt 2/3 RAI With Former Weatherman Bill Ayers Pt 1/3 Corporate Media Perpetuates Climate Science Denial – Gabriel Byrne on RAI Pt 4/4 ‘We the People’ Force Confronts Democratic Party Leadership in ’64 – Bob Moses on RAI Pt 9/9 The Constitutional People and Slavery by Another Name – Bob Moses on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 8/9 An Earned Insurgency – Bob Moses on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 7/9 Founding SNCC and Taking on Mississippi – Bob Moses on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 4/9 The Respectable Face of Terror – Robert Moses on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 3/9 Patriotism and Lynching – Bob Moses on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 2/9 Civil Rights Leader Bob Moses Dies at 86 – Pt 1/9 Black Nationalism and the Peoples’ Movement – Glen Ford on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 3/5 Glen Ford of Black Agenda Report Tells Life Story – Reality Asserts Itself Pt 1/5 Giving Grassroots Leaders a Voice – Glen Ford on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 2/5 Kennedy Was A Cold War Warrior to the Core – Glen Ford on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 5/5 The Kennedy Brothers Thought the Civil Rights Movement Was a Nuisance at Best – Glen Ford Pt 4/5 Transcript Listen Donate Subscribe Guest Music Paul Jay Hi, I’m Paul Jay. Welcome to theAnalysis.news. In a few seconds, I’ll be joined by Jeffrey Sommers. We’re going to talk about the Russian state, the rise of Putin, and what it means in terms of the current war in Ukraine. Be back in just a few seconds. As Israel continues its bombing of Gaza, Russia continues its attack on Ukraine. These wars have some things in common, but that’s not what we’re going to talk about today. We’re going to talk about Ukraine, the Russian invasion, and the rise of the state as led by Putin and what we make of it today. Now joining us again to talk about this is Jeffrey Sommers. If you haven’t watched my previous interviews with Jeff, you really should because they help set this one up. You’ll find them in the links below. Jeffrey Sommers is a professor of political economy and public policy at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, where he also serves as a senior fellow at the Institute of World Affairs. In addition to his academic work, he’s been published in outlets such as the Financial Times, the New York Times, Project Syndicate, the Guardian, the Nation, Social Europe, and often in Counterpunch. Thanks for joining me, Jeffrey. Jeffrey Sommers Paul, great to be here. Paul Jay So, in the previous segments, we talked about the end of the Soviet Union and the beginning of the rise of this new version of Russia. We talked to some extent about the ’90s, but I left off the last interview asking a question that I think leads to the issue of the rise of the oligarchs and the rise of the state under Putin.  The question I was left off with was, as the ’90s unfolded, certainly at the beginning of the selling of public assets, the big privatization that took place after the fall of [Mikhail] Gorbachev and the dissolution of the Soviet Union, a lot of assets were sold to individual Russians, many or most of whom had been in the party or certainly were seniors in the bureaucracy, which probably meant in the party. Assets that might have been worth hundreds of millions, maybe even billions, were sold for two or three million, I’m told. If I’m right about that, where did these people get two or three million? Nobody was supposed to have individually two or three million dollars entering the ’90s. So, what had happened prior to the dissolution of the Soviet Union that there were such people? Jeffrey Sommers It’s a good question, and it’s a fascinating one, and one which I think can still see you probably wearing concrete shoes and finding yourself at the bottom of a deep river if you ask too many questions along this line of inquiry. But nonetheless, it is fascinating. Under Joseph Stalin, actually, even under this period of totalitarianism, we saw periodically the rise of millionaires. Stalin, when he did discover them, had them typically shot. But nonetheless, you’re absolutely right. We’re not supposed to see people in possession of much money during the Soviet Union. Nonetheless, it happens. Well, how so? First of all, I would like to set this up in terms of a brief political economy of the 1980s and 1990s, and just very cursorily looking at the differences, again, between China and Russia and the very different trajectories that they took. Thinking about how both of them played an essential role in the creation of this neoliberal, globalized order that emerged in the 1980s out of the crisis of the 1970s— crisis being relatively low profits in the Western capitalist world. Just to rehearse that different set of trajectories and their importance for launching a 40-year period of profitability and some prosperity for some in the world system thereafter, we have China playing the role of a large state with a massive reserve army of labor. A state that is strong can impose its authority, can put in place the infrastructure that is needed, and can bring in all of this industry from Western capitalist states where labor costs had become uncompetitive, at least according to their owners. It provided a vehicle for restoring profitability within the global system by providing high-quality manufactured goods at relatively low labor costs, delivered efficiently onto markets. And, of course, as we know, China was able to use its leverage as a supplier of these essential goods to get the majority share, 51% plus ownership of many joint ventures with foreign firms, and to have significant degrees of technology transfer from abroad to them. So that puts them on this launching pad for a mission to economic development and prosperity, which, of course, as we know, over the past four decades, they’ve been wonderfully successful with something that I don’t think anyone else could really do. They had a unique set of advantages at a specific point in history, which allowed them to leverage neoliberalism and globalization into this project of national development, which delivered such fantastic results for them. By contrast, the Soviet Union was an entirely different animal. As much as living standards were not on par with the richest countries in the world, they were nonetheless still too high in order to have a workforce that would be competitive in terms of the global system, and this desire to set up new production facilities and take advantage of very low-cost labor.  Number one, there was not a lot of excess labor in the Soviet Union, at least not to the extent that there was in China. Again, it was far too expensive. But what did the former Soviet Union have, and especially Russia? Well, as we know, that was raw materials. Those raw material prices when depressed from their very high levels in the 1970s. We have to remember that the 1970s crisis was not only caused by too much competition driving profits down and wages which kept going up but also rising raw material prices. Well, in the 1980s, the Soviet Union began to supply an increasing quantity of these raw materials at low prices, and this helped to return the global system to profitability. And, of course, this continues in the 1990s. This is why the 1990s are often referred to as the peak of neoliberalism, the point where we had a unipolar world in which the United States prevailed over the system almost without peer competition, profits were very, very high, and there was much prosperity. Now, getting us back to your question, how does Russia fit into this system as continuing to provide these raw materials? Well, as we had mentioned in our last talk, as the 1980s unfolded and as we get the Gorbachev reforms, which were designed to restore some efficiency and competitiveness in the system within the Soviet Union, they had exactly the opposite effect. Again, Gorbachev pursued this model of restoring or creating democracy. He’s always got his face in the works of [Vladimir] Lenin. He’s trying to figure out where the system went wrong and how to write it. He’s convinced that, more or less, the recipes for success are located there. We see this dramatic flourishing of democracy at this time. It was thought that this would also give rise to innovation, and this would save the Soviet economy. Instead, it launches this period of rampant rent-seeking and theft. It takes the tendencies that had emerged and fully flowered of corruption throughout the late 1970s and through the 1980s and throws gasoline on it. It’s in this environment that you get this new class of people that emerge, that begin to accumulate capital. They create, within the early Soviet Union under Gorbachev, things such as cooperatives. We discussed this a little bit last time: these economic cooperatives, which were like subdivisions, oftentimes within existing enterprises. The idea that Gorbachev had was that there were probably all sorts of goods and services that the existing Soviet enterprises could deliver if they just had more freedom of latitude in which to act. So what they essentially did was to say, “Hey, guys, look, if you got a factory that’s producing so many metric tons of steel rebar for construction, if you can do something else with that steel as well and bring it into the market and sell it at whatever market price it will command, you can keep those profits and continue to find these new, un-heretofore discovered areas of need in the economy.” So that’s how it was supposed to work. To do this, the Soviet authorities also began allowing the creation of banks to provide some of the capital needs of these newly emerging cooperatives. The money that was provided, oftentimes, for investment and expansion into certain areas was backed up by the state, by the government. So, in a sense, this was a license to create money in the late Soviet Union and then to steal it if you chose. Now, how did you steal the money? Well, you had to turn it into a foreign hard currency and send it abroad. We discussed this a little bit last time, that it was the KGB that was tasked with this job of showing some of these new managers or managers of existing state enterprises that were beginning to create these cooperatives how you dealt with international finance. Sometimes, you might need to buy electronics from abroad or whatever it is. You needed to engage international finance in order to do this. The KGB was the only area where the resident’s skills and knowledge existed of how to work the system of banks, especially offshore banks, and one has to remember that this was another element of overcoming the 1970s crisis of profitability, which was to begin avoiding your tax bills. We see this really big explosion, especially in London, of the offshore banking industry, which, again, goes all the way back to the 1950s in terms of the euro-dollar market and the need to deal with the intricacies of rebuilding Europe after World War II. Europe has all these countries, and you can’t have all these multinational companies getting taxed every time they cross the border. So, everyone does a wink and a nod to tax avoidance every time you cross the border. That was more or less, I think, legitimate. They created in that process in the 1950s the offshore banking structures, which in the 1970s and the 1980s would be used for much larger scale tax evasion and all sorts of dubious activities. The KGB provides this skill set to this emerging class of managers and entrepreneurs. They weren’t always the new owners of these enterprises in the [Boris] Yeltsin years. They did not always come from within these enterprises. Some did of the type that I just referenced, but others were figures in the Komsomol. So, in other words, energetic young members of the Communist Party. They had a really great Soviet Union-wide network. They were engaged in all these conferences all the time. They knew each other. They could use that same network for all sorts of practices, corrupt and otherwise. And they did. And then there were also some academics of talent, often coming out of physics, which today still produces, along with philosophy, they have the two highest sets of standardized test scores for aspiring new students. P&P, physics and philosophy, produces a lot of smart people. Some of them find their way into these activities as well. Some of them do things really simple, like selling flowers, of which, in the Soviet Union, that was a really big deal. You were always bringing flowers for some occasion, i.e., Names Day. Paul Jay The same thing happened in the U.S. A lot of people who studied physics wound up either in Big Tech or on Wall Street. Jeffrey Sommers Wall Street, right. Exactly. Yes, Wall Street and Big Tech; that’s exactly right. So there were people who started off young, energetic, small, and from these rather humble beginnings. Just through a lot of hustle, ended up acquiring quite a bit of money that way as well. Not enough money to buy a state nickel company or something like that. It wouldn’t be worth a massive sum of money. This is where we started to see some of the initial capital accumulation. What I am trying to lay out are the various ways in which this initial capital accumulation started. It was with these commercial banks that were set up, as I was explaining, it was with these guys that got into these entrepreneurial activities. Simple as, again, selling flowers and honey at markets. Next thing you know, their operations go big, and they’re starting to operate across the entire width and breadth of the Soviet Union. I think I might have even mentioned the case of Latvia last time, which became really the hub of offshore banking activity for the post-Soviet oligarchs that were looking to get their money to places like New York and London. Of course, thinking about the political economy and overcoming that crisis from the 1970s and maintaining profitability in the 1990s, something like a full $250 billion comes out of Russia and ends up in the equity markets of New York alone. So, that really boosts asset prices. Then, of course, in London, we have the purchase of all this real estate and all the rest. Now, in the case of a place like Latvia, to give a concrete example of how this initial capital accumulation could work, we had, as I think I mentioned before, this bank called Parex, which would go on to become the biggest bank in Latvia in the 1990s up until the financial crash of 2008 wiped it out. You had two enterprise and Komsomol members, young communists, and they get their humble start by filling duffel bags full of rubles and taking the train and going between Riga, St. Petersburg, and Moscow. What they discover is that on the street markets, there’s different— it’s ever so slight— but there’s this arbitrage. Different levels at which they can exchange this currency for others; that’s how they get their start. As I indicated before, these guys then start, they get the first official approval for a currency exchange within the Soviet Union in 1990. They become then the clearing house for these cooperatives and some of the state managers who are running some of these cooperatives. Throughout the entire Soviet Union, the money is flowing into Riga again.  As I think I mentioned last time, they were not very subtle. Parex used to have a sign in the front of its bank. Now, this would have been in the early 1990s, after they established a bank in addition to their Soviet-era currency exchange. But when they create this bank, they have this sign that says, “We take all currencies. We ask no questions.” It’s right on the sign in front. Another of their signs, as I think I’d mentioned before, was, “Riga, we are closer than Switzerland.” They had a bit of a sense of humor. And, of course, they were also very direct about what they were doing. They both became people who ended up with— their net worth was estimated around $800 million each. Now, how this then unfolded in the 1990s is that we had this privatization period that began. There were friends of ours, like Boris Kagarlitsky, who is now in jail just east of the Urals for his criticisms of Putin’s government. He, as I think I mentioned before, was in the Moscow City Council. It’s called the Moscow Duma between 1990 and 1993, arguably the most democratic period in Russia’s history. He tried to expose what was going on. I think I may have mentioned this example before. For instance, just to highlight, this is great public relations. Boris really was smart with this kind of thing. Just to highlight the level of theft, he went to this one hotel near the Kremlin that was being sold for next to nothing. Boris had the chandelier alone in that hotel appraised, and then he gave a speech saying that they were privatizing and selling this hotel for less than the chandelier was worth, which was true. So that speaks to your point regarding the kopecks on the ruble. Paul Jay Let me jump ahead a bit. During this period, which was in the ’90s, there was a very chaotic grab by anyone who had some capital, can get hold of these private enterprises and get super rich, and they did. If I understand it correctly, at this point, the state and Yeltsin are fairly subordinate to the power of the oligarchs in the midst of all this chaos. When Putin came to power over the years, did that relationship change? Because it seems like now, we’re at a point where the oligarchs are subordinate to the state to a large extent, and Putin has been able to establish the state as the most powerful force, and the oligarchs better get along with it. If I’m right about that, how does that process take place? Jeffrey Sommers Well, you’re absolutely right about that, Paul. I remember some of these resentments that started to be expressed. A friend of mine used to be the head of publishing, which, in effect, was all information for the Soviet Republic of Latvia during Gorbachev’s period. She started reporting to me in the late 1990s that the KGB guys were getting really restless, and they were getting, frankly, pissed off about what had transpired in the 1990s, not because the country had been sold out but because they didn’t get theirs. Paul Jay There’s an interesting thing. Do you know the show The Americans? I’ve been rewatching it because I think it’s one of the best series that’s ever been on TV and shockingly nuanced for an American network dealing with Soviet spies in the United States. We’re up to the last season now rewatching it, and there’s a split in the KGB, pro-Gorbachev and anti-Gorbachev. With the anti-Gorbachev saying these reforms, especially democratization, are going to lead to the end of the Soviet Union. Well, in some ways, I guess maybe they did. It certainly was followed by the end of the Soviet Union. This kind of split in the KGB that thought democratization was a big mistake, does Putin come out of there? Jeffrey Sommers No. He’s really, to my mind, a very distinctive figure because he bridges so many different groups. That is his tremendous advantage or has been his tremendous advantage. He understood so many different groups, and he was seen as credible with so many different groups. So he gains credibility with the military, who definitely comes out of that wing of this has been a huge disaster, the collapse of the Soviet Union and the West is going to just run roughshod over us. That’s the message that they’re telling him all along. We’re really seeing the country being screwed. These oligarchs are the ones that have done this to us, along with the West. Then there are the oligarchs. In other words, he’s referencing Yeltsin. He was somebody who could not control the oligarchs; you are absolutely right about that. But he was also not so much seeking to control them. In other words, as they used t

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Normalization between Bahrain and the UAE with Israel, in addition to negotiations between S"} Nadim Houry, Executive Director of the Arab Reform Initiative, discusses the role of Arab countries in the Middle East in demanding a ceasefire in Gaza and negotiating the release of hostages taken by Hamas. Normalization between Bahrain and the UAE with Israel, in addition to negotiations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, has been disrupted as the Israeli bombardment of Palestinian civilians in Gaza continues. Houry also addresses previous attempts to advance peace, such as the Saudi-led Arab Peace Initiative of 2002, and argues that a regional rather than bilateral approach with Israel is necessary, one which requires a non-negotiable end to settlement expansion in the West Bank and brings Iran and other regional actors into the fray. Radical Transformation is Needed for an Israeli-Palestinian Peace – Nadim Houry Strategically and Morally Bankrupt: U.S. Policy in the Middle East – Col. Lawrence Wilkerson Justifying Genocide – Shir Hever pt 2 Demand a Cease-Fire in Gaza – Shir Hever pt 1 A Brutal Occupation Begets a Brutal War Between Israel and Hamas – Trita Parsi Censorship in Germany, Israeli Hacking & Saudi-Iran Peace Deal – Dr. Shir Hever Why David Clennon Refused Audition for Hit & Run, a Netflix Israeli Co-pro Is BDS Effective Strategy? – Shir Hever Pt 3/3 Fighting for Peace and Equality in Israel – Rula Daood and Alon-Lee Green Who Rules Israel – Shir Hever pt2 Why Did 72% of Israelis Want Attack on Gaza to Continue? Is Israel a Strategic Asset or Liability? – Wilkerson Abby Martin’s “Gaza Fights for Freedom” Israel’s War on Palestine – Ali Abunimah Does Israel Have the Right to Exist as a Jewish State? – Ali Abunimah on Reality Asserts Itself (3/5) Gaza Under Siege – Eva Bartlett on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 2/2 Gaza Under Siege – Eva Bartlett on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 1/2 Class Struggle in Palestine – Ali Abunimah on Reality Asserts Itself (4/5) Palestinians can Learn From the African America Struggle – Ali Abunimah on Reality Asserts Itself (2/5) Awakened by the Palestinian Intifada – Ali Abunimah on Reality Asserts Itself (1/5) Justice Requires an End to Israeli Jewish Supremacy Over Palestinians – Ali Abunimah on Reality Asserts Itself (5/5) From a Zionist Youth to Outspoken Critic of a Jewish State – Michael Ratner on RAI Pt 2/7 One State or Two, Solution Must be Based on Palestinian Rights Phyllis Bennis on RAI Pt 4/4 Fmr. Israeli Intel. Chief Says Palestinian Israeli Conflict Greater Risk than Nuclear Iran Pt 2/4 Vietnam War Created Middle East Activist – Phyllis Bennis on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 1/4 Syria’s Six Wars and Humanitarian Catastrophe – Phyllis Bennis on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 3/4 Transcript Listen Donate Subscribe Guest Music Talia Baroncelli Hi, I’m your host, Talia Baroncelli, and you’re watching theAnalysis.news. Joining me today is Nadim Houry, who will be speaking about the effort of Arab countries in the Middle East to bring about a ceasefire. Please don’t forget that we rely on your support to make this content. If you’d like to donate to the show, you can do so by going to theAnalysis.news. Also, don’t forget to get on our mailing list; that way, you’re always updated every time there’s a new episode. Help us beat the algorithm by liking and subscribing to our YouTube channel and like and subscribe to the show wherever else you listen to it, whether it be on Spotify or Apple. See you in a bit with Nadim Houry. Joining me now is Nadim Houry. He is the Executive Director of the Arab Reform Initiative in Paris and has also worked as a human rights lawyer for Human Rights Watch for over 13 years. Thank you so much for joining me again, Nadim. Nadim Houry Thank you for having me. Talia Baroncelli The humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is getting progressively worse. The death toll is now over 10,000 innocent Palestinian civilians, of whom over 4,000 are children. In response to Israel’s continued bombardment and siege of the Gaza Strip, we’ve seen several countries recall their ambassadors to Israel. Bahrain, Turkey, and Jordan recalled their ambassadors to Israel, and several countries in South America, such as Chile, Colombia, and Honduras have done the same. I believe Bolivia went a step further and completely cut diplomatic ties with Israel. How would you characterize the efforts on the part of Arab countries in the Middle East to bring about a ceasefire? Nadim Houry We’ve seen different initiatives from different Arab states, but these initiatives have remained, I would say, quite shy. I think there’s a high level of rhetorical condemnation from the official states. There’s a high level of anger in the different capitals and streets. But in practice, a lot of the efforts have been trying to convince the U.S. to put pressure on Israel to stop, frankly, the insane retaliation and attacks that we are seeing on the ground. One interesting role has been the one played by Qatar, which has become the central mediator on the issue of hostages and trying to link the issue of hostages to a ceasefire. We’ve seen both the U.S., Israeli, and Palestinian leadership, because Qatar actually has some Hamas leaders there trying to figure out a way to negotiate this. Another foreign role, and again, it’s not a common position because each country has different priorities, we’ve really seen Egypt very worried about what’s happening in Gaza. We will talk about it as well because Egypt is very concerned that part of the Israeli plan is to, again, force, relocate, and in some ways commit ethnic cleansing by pushing all Palestinians into Sinai, into Egypt, which is something that is a red line not just for Egypt, for the Palestinians, but also for the Arab States, and particularly amidst some of the more right-wing government of Israel. Also, we’re hearing messianic voices from some people, or actually ministers in the government. Talia Baroncelli Right, and you’re alluding to a leaked report by the Israeli Ministry of Intelligence, which is a think tank body within the Israeli military. It was suggesting that Israel should forcibly displace Palestinians into the Sinai Peninsula, which would, of course, be in contravention of international norms. Most noticeably, a few days ago, Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu was on ABC News, and he said that Israel should take control of it’s of its own security as well as the security of Gaza and potentially occupy Gaza for an indefinite period.  Now, up until that point, Secretary of State Antony Blinken had not drawn any red lines for Israel, but perhaps in response to the prospect of an indefinite occupation of Gaza, he did lay out some conditions for a durable peace. He did say that there should be no forcible displacement of the Palestinians, that the territory of Gaza should not be reduced, and that neither Israel nor Hamas should have a presence in Gaza after the war comes to an end, whenever that will be. It remains to be seen as to whether there will be any policy backing this up or if these are meaningless words by Blinken. Do you see this response as being far too little too late? Is Blinken too late to the show? Nadim Houry Are these words late? Definitely. Now, I’m not sure what too late means because the fighting is still ongoing, and there’s a real question mark about what is the Israeli game plan beyond bombarding and doing a military incursion. I think the U.S. has been worried about it since the beginning, but unfortunately, and this is where I think they are too late, they went along with the Israeli plan of attacking without actually having any gain. As the death toll quickly increased in dramatic fashion, and as it became clear that there is actually no clear plan in Israel about what they’re trying to do beyond simply bombarding and trying to attack Hamas, I think the U.S. has started to roll back, and I would say, indicate what are its own views on the issue. It’s good that they’ve articulated this because I think they’ve realized as well, given the opposition of many of its allies in the region, chief of them, Egypt, but also realizing that this will just not pass. Now, whether this becomes a red line, whether they will exert enough pressure on Israel, and again, here the U.S. is not just a bystander. They’re actually providing weapons, intel, and financial support to Israel. In a way, that’s on them as well. There’s a responsibility. If they can try to shape where this is going, they’ll be positive. On the other hand, what we’re still seeing, and what is clearly lacking and what is immediately needed, is a ceasefire. What is the U.S. saying? The U.S. is saying, “Down the line, we don’t want to see another Israeli occupation of Gaza. We don’t want to see a forced displacement of Palestinians.” But at the same time, they’re also saying, “We don’t foresee any real ceasefire right now.” In a way, they’re giving mixed messages. They’re still telling the Israelis, “Go and bombard more, but you should know you cannot re-occupy.” But what if the outcome ends up being a complete and total destruction of Gaza? The footage from northern Gaza right now is very telling. Then what? What does that solution look like? It was good to hear Blinken say that, but it was clearly insufficient, and what is needed is an immediate ceasefire to provide the space to start thinking about the next steps. But also, frankly, just to stop the killing, to stop the displacement, because, with each passing day, my concern is it becomes even harder to think about mediation in the long term. Talia Baroncelli Many people are also saying that the U.S. is culpable in this conflict, in this slaughter of the Palestinians, because they’re giving even more money, as you mentioned, and more arms. They’re approving $14 billion [USD] to give to Israel with no conditions tied to the use of that money. In a way, they’re wholly responsible as well for perpetrating this ethnic cleansing and slaughter of the Palestinians. Why don’t we move to the role of normalization in the region? Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates signed the Abraham Accords with Israel. Thinking back to the ’80s, for example, Egypt still had diplomatic ties with Israel when the massacres of refugees in the Sabra and Shatila camps were taking place under Israeli watch. Would you say something similar might happen in the Middle East with ongoing normalization while there is no ceasefire? Or do you think that the already agreed-upon normalization might be put into question? Nadim Houry I think we’re clearly seeing, at minimum, a pause button for the normalization process. If we take a step back, what we saw in the last few years was, in a way—and this was something that Israel very much pushed for with the U.S., particularly with the Trump administration—I would say creating a disconnect between normalization between Arab states and Israel and the Palestine question, the rights of Palestinians. The clearest manifestation was the Abraham Accords, which, as you mentioned, the U.A.E. and Bahrain signed, but also Morocco and Sudan. Lately, there have been a lot of bilateral negotiations facilitated by the U.S. for potential Saudi normalization. What these deals were premised on was somehow you make peace with Israel as an Arab state, and the Palestinian issue is sidelined or is left to some nice sounding words, i.e., the standards of living of Palestinians should get better, but really nothing about Palestinian rights, the right to self-determination, the right to move, and even the rights for Palestinian refugees. In a way, what happened in Gaza now, more than a month ago, blew the strategy apart, literally. Because one, it has exposed many of these Arab normalizing states to internal anger, and they realized they could not continue with that popularly. Two, it has also shown the limits of this, even for Israel, because Israel’s strategy was to say, “Look, we don’t need a comprehensive deal with the Palestinians. We don’t need it for our security. We don’t need it for our economy. We don’t need it for our acceptability in the region. We’ll just sign deals with the other Arab states.” In a way, that approach and that strategy was not only short-sighted; it was frankly ineffective, in addition to trampling on the basic rights of Palestinians. What will happen the day after remains to be seen. I think Bahrain’s withdrawal of its ambassador is also tied to the fact that Bahrain, of all the different normalizing states, has had a majority of its population that was unhappy about the normalization deal. It’s a way for the regime in Bahrain to create some buffer vis-à-vis its opinion. We haven’t heard much from the Emirates. The Emirates can better control, I would say, what gets expressed in terms of public opinion there. Also, what’s clear is that the Saudis are very pissed off, and any process of normalization with the Saudis is probably now on hold until there’s more clarity on what comes next. Is that normalization with the Arab states today reversible? I think it’s hard to tell. The feeling I’m getting right now from these states is that it’s a pause. What would be interesting is whether part of what comes next is a move away from this bilateral approach where each country signs a separate deal with the Israelis, often sweetened with the U.S. Morocco benefited because the U.S. then turned a blind eye to what happens in western Sahara. Bahrain gets different benefits. Saudi would have gotten some defense pack with the U.S. Whether what we’re seeing in Gaza now leads the Arab states to move away from this bilateral approach to go back to something a bit more regional, similar to the Arab Peace Plan, which the Arab state had proposed in 2002, which was a full normalization with Israel, but as a package deal, like getting to a two-state solution to a state for Palestine, Israel withdrawing from occupied lands, at the time, it included Lebanon, but also the Golan Heights. In return for that, Israel would benefit from a full normalization, not just with a handful, but with all the Arab states. This was adopted by all of the Arab states at the time. Will we see a return to a more regional approach by the countries? That remains to be seen. This is something I would call for. If you want to think about the rights of the Palestinians, a package deal that actually recenters Palestine and Palestinian rights, this would lead to a real resolution of the conflict with all its issues. I think this is what the region needs today, and not these piecemeal deals while the settlement continues and the occupation continues. Talia Baroncelli Well, what would this package mean for Palestinian leadership? Because we did see Blinken say the day after, whenever that actually happens, that neither the Israelis nor Hamas should remain in Gaza or have any role in the governance of it. Would it be the Palestinian Authority? I mean, Abu Mazen, he’s very old, and I think a lot of Palestinians view him as a corrupt figure with not a lot of legitimacy. Who do you see taking the mantle from there? Nadim Houry I think this is part of the issue right now is the lack of legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority. How did we get there? I mean, this was the reason why today the Palestinian Authority is looked at by most Palestinians as simply collaborators or an implementing arm of the Israelis, of the occupation because the Israeli successive governments have done everything to undermine the capacity of the PA to administer, let alone to govern Palestinians in the West Bank or obviously Gaza where they were pushed out. I think this is the challenge today. You have a government in Israel that is not only far right-wing but that has adopted as key elements of its government and its platform really messianic, biblical references to base their claim. [inaudible 00:16:59] to national law. They’re basically saying the Bible gave us, and you’re hearing biblical references left, right, and center, not just by some key ministers, but by [Benjamin] Netanyahu himself. Interestingly, the West is not reacting to this. On the other hand, as you mentioned, part of the challenge is that on the Palestinian side today, the PA is no longer seen as legitimate by a very large swath of the Palestinian population. In a way, that also weakens. What you need to do is to think of a process that would recreate a form of legitimacy in Palestinian leadership and what would do so in a relatively quick time. How can you do it?  Particularly, is it realistic to think that Hamas is just going to disappear? If we think about it, maybe Israel will manage to defeat Hamas militarily. But we know that Hamas has supporters, it has administrators. People say Hamas is an idea at some level. Are you just going to be able to say, “No, you’re not part of any deal in the future?” And if so, what would be their advantage to have that deal stand and not act as spoilers? This is going to be really, really challenging. It will require a lot of creative diplomacy. It would require, frankly, not just conflict resolution but a conflict transformation approach. I think everyone is realizing we’re at a dead end here. It’s an impasse. Israel is at an impasse with its approach to Palestine and Palestinian rights. Frankly, the West as well, because they’ve gone along with this folly of thinking, you can keep repeating the mantra of a two-state solution while you change facts on the ground day in and day out. That has a hidden impasse. Now, how do you get out of that impasse? That’s the hard part. That’s the hard part that would require, in my view, nothing short of complete conflict transformation. You almost need a positive shock, something dramatic to happen to change the equation of the different key actors, because otherwise, at best, what you’re doing is conflict mitigation. You pacify things by using a lot of violence, by the way, not just during armed conflict but even afterward. You pacify until the next explosion.  I really hope… the Palestinians have suffered too much. The conflict has simmered for too long, and there needs to be much more, I almost want to call it a radical approach to peacemaking, to transform the conflict, to rethink it. This could end up with a two-state solution, or it could be a one-state solution with equal rights. At the heart of it, it has to be listening to what the Palestinians have to say and not thinking you can just tell them, “Oh, this is an acceptable interlocutor. This is what your government should look like. This is who we think is a legitimate representative of the Palestinians.” These approaches have shown their limits, and frankly, they have failed, and they have failed spectacularly. Talia Baroncelli Just quickly before you have to go, how would you say the international institutions would contribute to this radical solution or getting out of this impasse? The U.S. and Israel do not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC. What do you think the role of the ICC could be in this? Nadim Houry Look, the ICC was given a role a few years ago because Palestine basically gave jurisdiction to look at the crimes. Unfortunately, the ICC has been procrastinating. Literally procrastinating now for years. “Oh, we’re trying to investigate. Oh, we can’t.” Only because of political pressure on it not to investigate. Does the ICC have a role? Definitely. Did the Palestinians already give it authority? Definitely. Should justice be an essential element of any peace deal? Definitely. Let the ICC do its job and investigate and hold accountable all those who’ve committed international crimes, regardless of the side they follow. I think that’s very important. Now, there’s another element to your question, which is, what about international institutions? This situation usually is the priority that the Security Council would be focused on. This is affecting obviously the security of Palestinians and Israelis, but this is also about the region and frankly, even the world. But we’ve seen, and this is not new, that Security Council is completely paralyzed and is unable to move. Here again, specifically, the U.S. using its veto, but because of the divisions between, on the one hand, the U.S., Russia, and China, which predate this immediate conflict, it’s impossible to look at the Security Council as a door to promote any solution. We’ve seen the General Assembly step up with a vote that is actually very strong, pushing for a ceasefire, pushing for humanitarian aid, pushing for some resolution, but that’s not binding. Where does that leave us? I think for me there’s a real moment today to think creatively about possibly more active regional diplomacy. Fortunately, the Arab states are not yet playing that role. But I think as part of this conflict transformation, my view is there may not be satisfactory answers if we keep using the same variables we’ve been dealing with for the last few years in Israel and Palestine. Maybe we need to look at this from a regional lens and go back to a regional pact. That would come with regional security assurances for Palestinians, for Israelis, and something where the different players would be involved. I would say this would probably require not just the Arab League but also Iran, which has emerged as a key regional player in this conflict. Can we think of something like that? People who are listening to us say, “Okay, this is so naive. This is so far-fetched.” It may be far-fetched, but I wouldn’t say it’s naive because we’ve tried a lot of other things, and it’s those who keep pushing for a two-state solution while Israel continues its settlement expansion in the West Bank and continues to punish and have Gaza as an open-air prison; that is to me, the naive thinking and saying, “Yes, this system can continue managing the conflict like this forever and ever.” Talia Baroncelli Nadim Houry, Executive Director of the Arab Reform Initiative, it was really great to get your views and insights on what’s transpiring in the Middle East right now. Nadim Houry Thank you for having me. Talia Baroncelli Thank you for watching theAnalysis.news. If you’d like to contribute to the show, you can do so by going to our website, theAnalysis.news, and hitting the donate button at the top right corner of the screen. We appreciate all the help you give us. See you next time. 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Prior to ARI, Nadim was at Human Rights Watch (HRW) for 13 years, where he started and ran HRW’s Beirut office for a decade before taking on the role of director of HRW’s Terrorism and Counter-terrorism Program. During his time at HRW, he worked across the MENA region, particularly on Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and Jordan, on a range of human rights issues ranging from freedom of expression to abuses by security forces to labour rights. theAnalysis.news theme music written by Slim Williams for Paul Jay’s documentary film “Never-Endum-Referendum“.   Never-Endum-Referendum Artist Website Paul Jay’s Documentaries

{"@context":"http:\/\/schema.org\/","@id":"https:\/\/theanalysis.news\/protesters-panama-is-worth-gold-not-copper\/#arve-youtube-qkoxreunqt8654d1cef726bb483253149","type":"VideoObject","embedURL":"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/qKOXreUnQT8?feature=oembed&iv_load_policy=3&modestbranding=1&rel=0&autohide=1&playsinline=0&autoplay=1&enablejsapi=1","name":"Protesters: Panama is Worth Gold, Not Copper","thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/theanalysis.news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/11\/Greg-Wilpert-panama.jpg","uploadDate":"2023-11-09T12:38:10+00:00","author":"theAnalysis-news","description":"Protesters have practically shut down Panama for over two weeks now in an effort to keep the Canadian mining company First Quantum Minerals from operating Central America's largest open-pit copper mine. Michael Fox tells the story and analyses its implications. TranscriptListenDonateSubscribeGuestMu"} Protesters have practically shut down Panama for over two weeks now in an effort to keep the Canadian mining company First Quantum Minerals from operating Central America’s largest open-pit copper mine. Michael Fox tells the story and analyses its implications. Massive Protests in Panama Against Canadian Mining Company Ecuador: Presidential Candidate Assassinated Haiti’s Predatory Ruling Families and Jimmy “Barbecue” Cherizier – Jafrikayiti part 2/2 U.S. and Canada Continue Meddling in Haitian Affairs – Jafrikayiti part 1/2 Apartheid Drives the Conflict in Peru Pro-Bolsonaro Attacks Following Bannon’s Playbook? Brazil: Hope for the First Time in a Very Long Time Peru’s Systemic Political Crisis Deepens as President is Arrested Lula Wins in Brazil but “Will Have to Tread Very Carefully” After Bolsonaro’s Failures, Why was Brazil’s Election so Close? Chile’s Devastating Vote A Paradigm Shift for Colombia Reversal of Fortune for Colombia’s Left? 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I’m your host, Greg Wilpert. Earlier this week, two anti-mining protesters were shot and killed in Panama, bringing the death toll during anti-mining protests to four. The protests, which have been ongoing for over two weeks now, have pretty much shut the country down. The issue that the protesters are opposing is a mining contract renewal for the Canadian mining company, First Quantum Minerals, which hopes to excavate copper in Panama from an open pit mine. Joining me to talk about what is happening in Panama and what it means is Michael Fox, who is based in Panama at the moment. He is a freelance journalist and host of the soon-to-be-launched podcast Under the Shadow. Thanks for joining me today, Mike. Michael Fox Thanks so much, Greg. Greg Wilpert So let’s start with the latest developments. What happened this past week, and what’s the situation like in Panama at the moment?  Michael Fox The big thing that’s been covering the news, which you just touched on, was this killing of these two anti-mining protesters, where someone, a Panamanian, it went back and forth on whether he was actually an expat from the U.S., but he was not. He is a Panamanian citizen who was born here in Panama. He walked up and shot two people in the protests. It’s a sign of the tension that the extension of these protests, particularly the blockades, is having in Panama. Right now, I’m in the Western province of Chiriquí. I’m in a town called Boquete, which those who are retired might know of it because it’s a retirement community. A lot of expats are here. We’ve been out of gas for the last two weeks. Products at supermarkets are running short; gas, like heating fluid or heating oil and propane gas in order to cook with your stoves and things like that have been out for several days. There’s no end in sight of when things might be coming back. I was at the store yesterday trying to buy eggs, and you can’t get those. The one positive here is that this is a bread basket for the country. We’ve got lots of vegetables and fruit that elsewhere around the country do not have. The protests and the blockades have continued. When we talk about the blockades, basically, the Pan-American Highway is the main artery that cuts through Panama, east to west, from the east coast to the west coast. It’s been blocked up and down the Pan-American Highway over the last two weeks at this point. It means that major buses can’t get in, and shipments of goods; that’s why we don’t have gas here as of the last week and a half. In fact, people are now selling gas on the street, but other people are claiming it might be watered down, so don’t use it because it might hurt your car. It’s a pretty intense situation. Schools are out. They’ve now gone online. University classes have been postponed. Basically, here and in cities across the country are shut down. We’ve been staying at this one local spot by this restaurant and hotel, and they’ve been completely shut for the last few days. This is really hard, Greg, because it’s the middle of the country’s Independence Day month. Independence celebrations were just last Friday, and they were expected to run throughout the weekend. What that means, this is the biggest tourist moment of the year. This is when restaurants and hotels really make back the money they’ve been losing throughout, and everything has been shut down. It’s been shuttered. There haven’t been any parades. There’s nothing that is happening. For the business community, for commerce, for local communities, it’s been really hard. The fact that there is almost no end in sight is also really concerning. That’s what it looks like now. Protests are still happening. The roadblocks continue, and it’s a hard moment. Greg Wilpert Sounds almost like a general strike. How did it come to this? My understanding is that the mining company, First Quantum Minerals, has been operating in Canada for a very long time already. What is it about this latest contract and this copper mine in particular that is causing so much opposition? What are the protesters demanding from the government? Michael Fox The most important thing you need to remember here, Greg, is there are several layers of why people are so upset, and we can dive into those in the next few minutes. The most important thing is this all harkens back to the role of the U.S. government and the Panama Canal. Bear with me for a second. I’ll get to First Quantum in a second. The reason why is because the Panama Canal wasn’t just a canal. It was a whole canal zone that was essentially U.S. property in Panama. It meant that the whole region around the Panama Canal, Panamanians, could not come in. It was not authorized. It was a U.S. enclave within Panama. Panamanians fought for 100 years to get that zone back and to kick the U.S. out. The reason, the thing that every single person in the streets is talking about, is this is a reminder of that. They do not want a foreign company to come in to be authorized and basically cede a piece of Panamanian property, of Panamanian land, to do with whatever they want. Part of the thing with this contract is the fact that the previous contracts actually said that the Panamanian government or Panamanians could not overfly the area of the mine. Even now, the contract says that the port that is supposed to take out this copper directly from the mine, Panamanians, aren’t authorized to use that without the authorization of the mine, First Quantum. That’s what people are so upset about. This is a handing over of a piece of Panamanian property, and it is a reminder. It was not so long ago, we’re talking about just 20 years ago, that Panama basically got back that territory that used to be the canal zone. They’re saying, “No, we’re not going to do this again. We are not going to hand this over.” That’s the bigger vision, and that’s really what’s at stake. I was trying to wrap my brain around it too. Most countries I’ve been in, like Brazil or elsewhere, okay, there’s a mine. People aren’t going to shut down the country for weeks around one mine. Maybe they should, but they’re not going to. But that is what is at stake. Now, I’ll talk about the environmental stuff in a second. So what happened was going back to the previous contract, and you’re right, since 2019, First Quantum has been extracting copper from this mine. It’s been under operation. It’s been happening for several years. Now backup several years ago, the Supreme Court ruled that the contract with the previous contract with First Quantum over this mine was unconstitutional because it was not to the benefit of the Panamanian good. That first contract, essentially, First Quantum was giving to the Panamanian state something like $35 million a year, which is just chump change, when you think about it, for the major extraction, the size of this mine. Remember, Greg, this is the largest open-pit copper mine in Central America. This thing is huge. It’s a massive amount of territory. In one of my reports talking about it, it’s roughly two times the size of Manhattan. It’s not just a tiny neighborhood or a piece of land. It’s very, very big. That is important. The Supreme Court said, “No, this contract is not working. You need to go back and rewrite the contract.” That’s what the government’s been doing for the last two years. Now, throughout this entire time, First Quantum has continued to extract coal. It’s continued and has extracted roughly 300,000 tons of copper a year. The government, over the last two years, has been renegotiating the contract. They solidified it. They came to it. They signed an agreement. Then, it came up to Congress on October 20. Now, Congress can take a long time to debate this thing, but they essentially approved it in three debates over one week. At the exact same time, the very next day, the President signed it into action. That was part of what people were so upset about. Now, the government says that they got a lot of input from the community. People said that is just not the case. They’re extremely upset with the fact that this was approved so fast by Congress. Literally, just in three days, and then they signed in. That also made people say, “Look, they’re willing to just give over a piece of our land for nothing.” Now, the new contract, what it does, and the government’s been very clear about heralding this as a huge win for the Panamanian state. The new contract basically increases the amount that the state is going to be receiving from this mine per year by 10 times. Now, it’s $375 million a year that the Panamanian state is supposed to be receiving. A good chunk of that money, the President Laurentino Cortizo has already said, should be going to shore up the social security system, which is having a really hard time here. In fact, he came out just days after the protest started and said that by November, by this month, they’re going to be ensuring that pensioners in the country, 120,000 pensioners, are going to be receiving at least $350 a month because of the windfall profits from this mine. That’s, in some cases, as much as 80% higher than what they’re receiving right now. The government’s really looking at this as a profit gainer for government coffers as a way to bring in funds. Of course, it’s really good for the government itself and its image abroad. Now, of course, it’s also true that the Vice President has long ties with the First Quantum, with the mine itself. A lot of people are saying, “Hey, this is only happening, it’s only being pushed because of the involvement of the Vice President, because of his ties with First Quantum.” There’s been a lot of rumors that First Quantum paid money to the congressional representatives. We don’t have any facts or information about that, but those are rumors that a lot of people are talking about and more reason why they’re out in the streets and so frustrated. Right now, they’ve got the new contract. People say that this one is just like the old one, except the states are getting a little bit more money. There now have been eight different lawsuits brought before the Supreme Court here in Panama, and they’re waiting for the Supreme Court to make a ruling. That’s really where things stand right now. Laurentino Cortizo, the President, came out after about a week of the protest and said, “Listen, I’m going to call for a referendum in December, and we’ll let the people decide if you want the contract or not.” People said, “No, we don’t want that. We don’t want the mining contract.” Well over the majority of the population, something like 65% of the population, does not want this and would rather protect the environment in those areas. We’ll get to that in a second. That’s where things stand. Laurentino Cortizo says, “We’re going to do a referendum.” It went back to the Supreme Electoral Court, which said, “We don’t have the means nor the agenda to be able to do a referendum.” Congress then went and approved and said, “If you want to do a referendum, we can do it, and we authorize the Supreme Electoral Court to do it.” In fact, it looked for a second like Congress might be moving to gut, to recede the contract they had just signed. Then they stopped after two different votes and said, “You know what, we’re going to leave it in the hands of the courts.” That’s where everything is right now. Now it’s unclear, as you know, Supreme Courts can move slowly. It’s unclear how long it’s going to take them. Many people are saying that it is looking like we might get word from the Supreme Court by late next week, sometime in mid-November. But in the meantime, things are shut down. Like I said, gas is out, propane is running out, food is running short, and tensions are running really high. This is interesting, Greg. In the very beginning, when the protests launched and hit the streets, this was a wide swath of the population. I’m talking about activists. The major construction union, SUNTRACS, was really involved, and they’re extremely radical. They’ve been out in the streets from day one. You also have students, teachers, indigenous groups, including upper-class folks saying, “We don’t want this. We don’t like the President.” They were banging their pots and pans, which is often time seen as an act of protest from the upper classes—even white business people. Everybody was in the streets. That’s extremely interesting, Greg. One of the things that nobody has been talking about is why this has not been covered at a deeper level. Obviously, this is touching interests that have to do with Canada, a Canadian corporation, with U.S. financing. Now, if this was something or a situation that the U.S. government didn’t like, I’m sure that we would have heard much more about how these protesters have been in the streets because this has been shutting down the country. Yet outside of Panama, you really have heard very, very little. But it is a massive thing. The big issue is that we don’t know what the end game is or what’s on the horizon and how this is going to end up. Greg Wilpert You said you were going to say something about the environmental impact. Open-pit mines, of course, are pretty notorious for being extremely damaging. Just how bad is it in this case? Michael Fox Well, notorious for being damaging, absolutely. Remember that this is a high, biodiverse region. The Caribbean coast here is running up and down and is extremely important. According to the contract, what we understand is that as much as a billion cubic meters of water can be used by the company for this mine a year. Remember, this is times of drought. We just saw a few months ago, where literally the Panama Canal, the water was so low that there was a ship that ran aground and people couldn’t get through it. Now, it has been raining in recent months, and that’s been a godsend for many Panamanians. But remember that at least a quarter of the country does not have running water 24 hours a day, potable running water. People see the ability of this mine to be able to use as much water as it wants, essentially, whereas Panamanians don’t have that same access. People are obviously up in arms. There have been images of tapirs, animals, and the mine plays that who are extremely bad off. The images of the mine are just massive. It’s an open pit mine. It’s what you imagine. The environment is an important thing for many Panamanians. It’s a fascinating thing, Greg, because the major, maybe the top three issues why people are in the streets have to do with sovereignty and the role of a foreign government. It has to do with the environment. It has to do with the Panamanian Canal, which is a huge source of income for the country. When you think about the fact that people are protesting about these things and willing to stand up in defense of the environment and in defense of their sovereignty is really huge. I think it says a lot about this moment. Also, Panamanians, they are not going to give up. This is not the type of protest where you say, “Okay, fine, we’ll make some agreements, and then we’ll go home.” That doesn’t happen here. Even more importantly, it’s important to remember just last year, Panama saw three weeks of massive protests that shut down the country roughly from July until August. Those were regarding inflation and high gas prices. It took the government a long time and created a dialog with social movements to be able to sit down and say, “Okay, listen, we’re going to try and resolve this.” Many Panamanians feel that that situation did not actually improve. Things did not improve that much. They’re also weary of entering into dialog with the government about this, the same government, Laurentino Cortizo, that everybody is so upset with. Remember that this isn’t just a one-off, but this comes after these massive protests that people saw last year. This is the other issue that many business people are talking about, hotel and restaurant owners, is the fact that Panama hasn’t really had its moment after the end of COVID. It’s been in the thick of it for four years. First, you had COVID in 2019-2022. As soon as things started to come back last year, you had three weeks of protests that shut down the country. Now you have three weeks of protests or two and a half, but it’s obviously going to be at least three weeks by the time this is over. Again, this is really hitting the business sector really hard. Greg Wilpert What can you say about the government? Laurentino Cortizo, it sounds like he’s being a bit inept in handling this. Apparently, his party is considered to be center-left, but he’s not really known to be part of the so-called Second Pink Tide in Latin America. What’s on his agenda, and who’s behind him? Michael Fox Yeah, well, these are great questions, Greg. First off, he’s the former head of the National Assembly and former Ag[riculture] Minister. As you said, his party is center-left but much more centrist. As we’ve seen out in the streets, indigenous folks, unions, workers, social movements, as well as the upper class, everybody’s against him. He really doesn’t have much support at this time. He also has cancer. Many people are pointing to that as a possibility of why he’s unable to handle this situation at the moment, and things have gotten out of hand. Now, keep in mind also, Greg, that the elections are only six months away. May 5, 2024, are the elections here. It is an interesting moment because with all these protests happening already, what we saw from the protests last year is that some members, more radical, progressive members of the left, really have risen to the fore of this network of roughly 10 people that are going to be the 10 top candidates for the elections next year. Obviously, Laurentino Cortizo is not on the ballot. It’s going to be really interesting to see what an impact these protests could have. If you look at what’s happened in many other countries that have seen turmoil and protests in the lead-up to elections that are happening, you either have the possibility of someone much more on the left, much more radical, coming into power, or you have the possibility of something like [Jair] Bolsonaro happening, somebody much more on the right. That’s my prediction for next year. We don’t know what’s going to happen, but people are upset with the traditional parties right now. They blame them for passing this through Congress. They blame Laurentino Cortizo for signing it immediately. They say this whole system is messed up and screwed up, and we need a massive change. I think that in next year’s elections, we’re going to see a shake-up. The big question is, is this going to be a shake-up more in the direction of [Nayib] Bukele in El Salvador? Are we going to see a shake-up more in the direction of Lula [da Silva], say, in Brazil? Greg Wilpert Now, finally, you have a podcast that’s coming up called Under the Shadow. What shadow are you referring to here? Is this shadow present in Panama at the moment? And if so, how? Greg Wilpert The shadow is present everywhere across Latin America and has always been. The shadow is the United States. In fact, the political and economic movements and tools of the United States. It’s also the Monroe Doctrine. Remember the Monroe Doctrine? We go back, James Monroe, basically, exactly 200 years ago this year said that the United States had a right to intervene across the region, that the foreign powers, the European foreign powers, could not no longer intervene in Latin America. It was the United States that was essentially going to. This was the United States realm. Latin America was the United States’ backyard. This shadow is U.S. and U.S. policies, whether that’s coups and foreign policy abroad or the innumerable invasions that have happened to almost every country in the region. This is obviously the shadow here. Now, what’s interesting about the shadow is the fact that in Panama, remember, the shadow is obvious. Literally, the United States helped to break Panama away from Colombia and then took over the Panama Canal region for 100 years. You cannot talk about what’s happening, even though many news outlets do, but you cannot talk about what’s happening in Panama right now, as I mentioned at the beginning, without talking about the 100-year-long occupation by the United States of the Canal zone and what that enclave meant to Panamanians across the country because having that enclave of a foreign country inside their own country has made them absolutely resentful of the possibility of this happening again. That’s on the minutia of what we’re seeing, but it’s extremely important. That’s what everybody is feeling when they’re marching out in the streets of the possibility of having a foreign company or a foreign country come back here and do the same thing. Also, don’t forget, Greg, and this is really important. First Quantum Minerals, it’s a Canadian company with Chinese and Korean backing, but also U.S. investment companies, including, I’m looking down at my notes right here, U.S. capital groups, Fidelity, Vanguard, and BlackRock. All these people have investments in First Quantum. Stocks have dropped. They’ve tanked just over the last month by 50%– First Quantum stocks. The mine itself is largely invested by First Quantum. But then you have other investors, and we don’t actually even know who the other investors are in the mine. We know who the investors are in First Quantum, but we don’t know necessarily who these other investors are involved in the mine. All these things are extremely important. They’re all foreign investors. This is why those people are in the streets. If you’re listening right now, you can actually hear some horns because it’s another protest that’s starting this afternoon. This is deeply, and it’s profound for people across Panama. Obviously, the shadow looms large everywhere, everywhere across the region. Greg Wilpert Well, just one more follow-up on that. The United States government, of course, I imagine, is watching the situation very carefully, precisely because Panama is the location of the Panama Canal. Apparently, this is having, or it’s very possible that it will have, a spill-over effect that is the protest movement, perhaps for the elections and what that could maybe mean for the Panama Canal in the future. Has there been any reaction from the U.S. government? Have you seen any movement or any efforts to interfere or influence the situation? Michael Fox We haven’t seen much from the U.S. government. They have been obviously sending messages to foreigners in Panama, which is usual, telling people to be wary about protests and things like that. Stay away from the protests. Stay at home if you can. We haven’t seen a major push by the U.S. government in this situation. I think they’re trying to stay out of it. But absolutely, how this is resolved in the next few months and what happens for the elections next year is going to be extremely important for the future of Panama and the future of the canal. As far as I understand, shipments are still happening. I’ve been in touch with people and companies that are shipping outside of Panama and shipping elsewhere. What it’s meant is that at least those in Panama City have had to bring shipments or be bringing cars and elsewhere to Colón and elsewhere overnight so that they’re not involved in the major issues with the big blockades, getting those from Panama City to Colón. As far as I understand, there hasn’t been a major interruption with the canal itself. But obviously, these are major concerns because this is Panama, and it’s a massive hub for transportation internationally and what that could mean. Greg Wilpert Okay, well, we’ll leave it there. I’m speaking to Michael Fox, a freelance journalist currently based in Panama. Check out his upcoming podcast, Under the Shadow. Thanks again, Mike, for having joined me today.  Michael Fox Thanks so much, Greg. Appreciate it. Greg Wilpert And thank you for joining The World on Fire. Until next time. 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{"@context":"http:\/\/schema.org\/","@id":"https:\/\/theanalysis.news\/wealth-supremacy-vs-the-democratic-economy-with-marjorie-kelly\/#arve-youtube-l404tsp4htc654d0bf165662402046038","type":"VideoObject","embedURL":"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/l404tsP4HTc?feature=oembed&iv_load_policy=3&modestbranding=1&rel=0&autohide=1&playsinline=0&autoplay=1&enablejsapi=1","name":"Marjorie Kelly - Not Published","thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/theanalysis.news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/11\/Marjorie-Kelly.jpg","uploadDate":"2023-11-09T11:41:47+00:00","author":"theAnalysis-news","description":"Renowned social theorist, systems thinker, and organizer, Marjorie Kelly, gives an early look at her new book:\u00a0Wealth Supremacy. Speaking with Colin Bruce Anthes, she details the entrenched ways our current system is built around myths that make giving more wealth to the already wealthy seem necessa"} Renowned social theorist, systems thinker, and organizer, Marjorie Kelly, gives an early look at her new book: Wealth Supremacy. Speaking with Colin Bruce Anthes, she details the entrenched ways our current system is built around myths that make giving more wealth to the already wealthy seem necessary— even when we try to use our institutions for the common good. Kelly contrasts this with an outnumbered but successful democratic economy with many forms of democratized ownership and participation: public utilities, employee-owned companies, community land trusts, cooperatives, and more. We can create an economy that works for everyone, she argues, but only if we systematically discredit the moral status of wealth supremacy and turn towards a democratic economy paradigm.    Wealth Supremacy vs. The Democratic Economy with Marjorie Kelly Seeking Full Employment Without Falling Prey to Neoliberal Traps BRICS: Talk Left, Walk Right – Patrick Bond (pt 2/2) UAW: Historic Demand to Eliminate Wage Tiers – Frank Hammer Debt and Climate Crisis in Sri Lanka and the World – Asoka Bandarage Corruption in Lebanon Propped up by the Transnational Capitalist Elite – Nadim Houry Non-Aligned Movement +G77 (Group of Developing Countries) versus G7+NATO+OECD+World Economic Forum Practical Radicalism: Community Wealth Building with Neil McInroy Paul Jay and Freddie deBoer Discuss Independent Media, Censorship, and Hate Speech Laws Debt Ceiling Theater and the Trump Parallel Universe Honest Government Ad | Reserve Bank of Australia Part 2: Debt and the Collapse of Antiquity – Michael Hudson Debt and the Collapse of Antiquity – Michael Hudson (pt 1/2) Detroiters Fight to Reclaim Their City From Real Estate Vultures – Linda Campbell Bill Black on SVB: A Bipartisan Clown Car Crash Federal Reserve is Throwing Workers Out of Work to Save the Rich Exposing Apocalyptic Economics with Steve Keen No Evidence to Support FED 2% Inflation Target – Robert Pollin  50 Years After Allende at the UN: A Corporate Triumph Named Multistakeholderism Time Bomb in Global Finance – Rob Johnson Monopoly Power vs Democracy – Matt Stoller  Real Climate Solutions are No Mystery – Pollin How to Fight Inflation Without Attacking Workers – Pollin Worker’s Wages & Leverage are the Real Targets – Ferguson Repairing a Fractured World Economy? The Fed Attacks the Working Class – Robert Pollin Capitalism’s Structural Crisis and the Global Revolt Biden’s Bill has Significant Funding for Climate but 10% of What’s Needed – Bob Pollin No Bosses: A New Economy for a Better World (pt 1/3) No Bosses: A New Economy for a Better World (pt 2/3) No Bosses: A New Economy for a Better World (pt 3/3) Progressive Running Against a Corp Dem in Boeing Country Organizing in West Virginia  Get Organized to Win! – Jane McAlevey pt 1/8 25,000 Gather for Moral March on Washington Rising Interest Rates Intended to Create Unemployment – Bob Pollin The Story Behind “The Con” The Power of the Strike – Jane McAlevey pt 8/8 Power Analysis and Whole-Worker Charting – Jane McAlevey pt 7/8 To Win We Need Strong Militant Unions – Jane McAlevey pt 6/8 Is China’s Trade Predatory or for Mutual Benefit? – Hudson and Bond pt 2/2 Mobilizing is Not Organizing – Jane McAlevey pt 5/8 Nationalize Fossil Fuel to Fight Climate Change and Inflation – Bob Pollin In 2020, Trump Propped Up His Rural Vote with Massive Subsidies to Agribusiness – Tom Ferguson Pt 4/4 Fossil Fuel and Private Equity Love Trump – Thomas Ferguson Pt 3/4 theAnalysis.news in 2022 – Paul Jay In 2020, Elites Bailed on Trump, Not on Republican Party – Tom Ferguson Pt 2/4 The Making of Global Capitalism with Leo Panitch Risking Apocalypse for the Spoils of War – Andrew Cockburn pt 1/2 Is the U$A a Democracy? with Tom Ferguson Hard Bargaining in Las Vegas Hospitals – Jane McAlevey pt 4/8 Organizing for Power – Jane McAlevey pt 3/8 Respecting the Genius of Ordinary People – Jane McAlevey pt 2/8 Get Organized to Win! – Jane McAlevey pt 1/8 Stop Subsidizing Wall St., Start Subsidizing Workers for High Energy Costs – Bob Pollin Why the Media Doesn’t Understand Control Fraud Biden Heads to COP 26 Throttled by Manchin and Trumpists – with Bob Pollin Michael Hudson: Biden Between BlackRock and a Hard Place Imperialism Then and Now: Wealth, Unemployment, and Insufficient Demand- Pt 1/3 Prabhat Patnaik Imperialism Then and Now: Capital Relocation, Inequality, Encroachment and Protracted Crisis -Pt 3/3 Imperialism Then and Now: Drain of Wealth, Depression, Role of the State and Globalization-Pt 2/3 Bill Black pt 9/9 — The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One To Get Us Out of Poverty, We Need a Massive Infrastructure Plan – Ann Morrison / Wisconsin How Billionaires Pay Millions to Hide Trillions – Chuck Collins Bill Black pt 8/9 — The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One Bill Black pt 7/9 -The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One Bill Black pt 6/9 – The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One Bill Black pt 5/9 – The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One Bill Black pt 4/9 – The Best Way to Rob a Bank is To Own One Bill Black pt 3/9 – The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One Modest Inflation is Good for Workers – Bob Pollin Why Biden Won’t Cancel Student Debt – Michael Hudson E.U. is Split Over “Strategic Autonomy,” China and U.S. Hegemony – with Mark Blyth Mark Blyth – An Inflated Fear of Inflation? Bill Black pt 2/9 – Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One Bill Black pt 1/9 – The Best Way to Rob a Bank Is to Own One Can You Destroy $20 Billion in Wealth Without Committing a Crime? – Bill Black Workers and Communities vs Amazon Polarization, Then a Crash: Michael Hudson on the Rentier Economy Democrats Stuck Between “BlackRock and a Hard Place” – Rana Foroohar and Mark Blyth Peoples’ Lives vs. Profits of Pharmaceutical Monopolies – GPE Newsdocs What is to be Done to Save the Planet – Robert Pollin Financialization and Deindustrialization – Michael Hudson Is Trump the Tip of a More Coherent Fascist Spear? How Deep Will the Depression Get? – Rana Foroohar and Mark Blyth Regenerative Agriculture and Massive Planting of Trees is Our Only Hope – Earl Katz Stabilizing an Unstable Economy – Jan Kregel on Hyman Minsky Will Unions Respond to the Pandemic Moment? Bill Black: Cities Face Catastrophe; Finance a Cancer on Real Economy FED’s $10 Trillion Defends Assets of the Rich – Michael Hudson The Irrationality of the System Has Been Fully Revealed – Leo Panitch Thomas Ferguson: Big Business Takes Cash as Workers Laid Off, States and Cities Go Bust Artificial Intelligence in Whose Interests? – RAI with Rana Foroohar Pt 6/6 The Rich Have an Escape Plan – RAI with Rana Foroohar Pt 5/6 Sociopaths Rise to the Top RAI with Rana Foroohar Pt 4/6 Clinton’s ‘Committee to Save the World’ Unleashes Wall Street – RAI with Rana Foroohar Pt 3/6 Apple, Market Manipulation and the Cult of Personal Finance – RAI with Rana Foroohar Pt 2/6 The Rise of Finance and the Fall of American Business – RAI with Rana Foroohar Pt 1/6 Capitalism Will Hit the Wall Again, Hard – Heiner Flassbeck on RAI Pt 5/5 The Necessity for Higher Wages – Heiner Flassbeck on RAI Pt 4/5 The U.S. Dollar and the Search for a Reasonable Capitalist – Heiner Flassbeck on RAI Pt 3/5 Racing to a Dead End – Heiner Flassbeck on Reality Asserts Itself Pt 2/5 Reaganism and Thatcherism were Intellectually Dishonest – Heiner Flassbeck on RAI Pt 1/5 Transcript Listen Donate Subscribe Guest Music Colin Bruce Anthes Welcome to theAnalysis. I’m Colin Bruce Anthes. In a minute, we’ll be speaking with the renowned social theorist and organizer Marjorie Kelly on her new book about wealth supremacy and its democratic economy alternatives. Please remember to like, subscribe, ring that bell so you get notifications, and consider hitting the donate button to support our work. Stay tuned. It’s been 15 years since the financial crash that brought the global economy into the biggest recession since the Great Depression. Despite steady outrage across the political spectrum, inequality, and concentration of ownership, the financialization of assets continues to skyrocket. According to the new book by Marjorie Kelly, that won’t change until we address the system-wide problem of wealth supremacy and begin bringing democratic forms of ownership and participation to every aspect of the economy. The good news is many of the alternatives already exist, are functioning well at a smaller scale, and are ready for prime time. Marjorie Kelly’s own story and evolving career have included co-founding Business Ethics magazine in the 1980s, inspiring the creation of the B Corporation, and co-founding Fifty by Fifty, which seeks to see employee ownership reach 50 million American workers by the year 2050. She is a distinguished senior fellow at the Democracy Collaborative. Marjorie Kelly, welcome. Marjorie Kelly Thanks for having me, Colin. Colin Bruce Anthes Can we begin by contextualizing how you came to write this book because, in many ways, you’re one of the original canaries in the coal mine regarding what we might call “friendly capitalism.” You come from a business family, you worked at Business Ethics magazine for 20 years, you handed out Business Ethics awards, and you had quite a name for yourself there. Yet, you end up concluding, and I quote from the book, “Moral capitalism is as impossible as moral racism.” How do you end up at this point? Marjorie Kelly This book is a turning point for me, Colin. I have spent more than 30 years writing about and advocating the positive. I know so many progressive business leaders, socially responsible investing these days called impact investing or ESG [Environmental, Social, and Corporate Governance]. I’ve tracked these fields really since their infancy. Community wealth building is a new form of economic development that the Democracy Collaborative is advancing, and it’s catching on really widely. There’s so much happening. There are so many visionaries building out the positive. That’s what I’ve wanted to focus on. But I’ve become discouraged. I see now that we’re losing ground faster than we’re gaining it. The reason is that we have yet to turn and morally discredit the existing system and its core value, which is wealth supremacy. We really live inside an economic system designed to make the wealthy wealthier. That’s not hand-waving. I’ve been like a spy inside of business for a couple of decades. I ran a small company for 20 years, and I sold my dad’s business after he died. I know how business works. I’ve lectured at a lot of business schools. What I can see and what I do for the reader is to unpack the granular ways that the system is rigged. We have this sense the system is rigged against us. It is in very specific ways. I call them seven myths. They really form the operating system of capitalism, which we accept is normal. It’s taught in business schools. It’s the fundamental corporate governance structure and investing aims. I mean, it’s really built in. This wealth supremacy is built in all over. Until we turn and challenge that, I think our efforts are going to fail. Colin Bruce Anthes Let’s get to the quick and dirty definition of wealth supremacy because it sounds like a concentration of capital. Of course, every day in the news, there’s something about terrible billionaires, and people are familiar with the huge amount of inequality that we see. But wealth supremacy, as you’re alluding to there, actually goes a little deeper. It goes into the quasi-invisible infrastructure of the system. Marjorie Kelly Yes, that’s right. I use two terms: wealth supremacy and capital bias. Wealth supremacy is the cultural ethos that admires wealthy people and empowers them. Wealthy people have power in philanthropy. There’s a power over government to political donations, and corporations are seen as the property of shareholders rather than as human communities, which is what they are. There are so many ways that our culture valorizes wealth. Then, there are the very specific ways that wealth has power inside the economy. This is what I call capital bias. In corporate governance, only shareholders vote. Workers are not considered members of the corporation, which is odd. It’s very much like women at one time who were not considered members of society. You accept this as a norm. The income statement, which every corporation uses to guide its activity, says to pay capital as much as possible. That’s called profit. It’s good. Drive it up. Pay workers as little as possible. That’s called expense, and you need to drive it down. There are various ways that are built into the structure of power in our economy; it favors capital and disfavors workers, the community, and the environment. Colin Bruce Anthes That’s a very important point because it speaks to how quickly things that we know can become invisible. We all know that workers tend to get shafted by the economy. Most of us have experienced being the workers getting shafted. Yet when I am working at a company, I am, of course, thinking of myself as a contributor, not an expense. At the same time, that’s not the way the company is organized. Marjorie Kelly Yes. How we think of this as a corporation, as an object owned by shareholders, that has consequences. For example, when the big tech firms hit a downturn in their stock price a little bit ago, the first thing that they did was throw thousands of workers out of their jobs. This is so standard. What they were doing is they were saying, “Okay, our share price is down. Share price is related to your profit, so you need to boost your profit; that means you need to cut your expenses.” They’re basically transferring income from labor to capital very deliberately, and it’s very, very common. We just accept this as normal. Colin Bruce Anthes One of the examples that you give in the book that’s really concrete and shows how deep and how invisible the roots of wealth supremacy can be is Harvard College and Harvard University. One might think at first glance that Harvard is a registered charity, producing some of the best post-secondary education in the world, certainly in the United States. What could be wrong with that? Marjorie Kelly Harvard is about… 66-67% of its endowment is invested in private equity and hedge funds. These are the predatory bleeding edge of capitalism right now. When we try to regulate capitalism or enforce change, it flows around whatever barriers we put in place. When there were Superfund laws saying you can’t dump toxic chemicals in waters, well, what did the chemical companies do? They moved to China. They’re like, “Fine, we’ll dump in the waters off of China.” What’s happening here? There have been a number of investors who’ve said to the big oil companies, “You need to get rid of your dirty assets. You need to divest these dirty assets.” Some of the big oil companies have done this. But those assets, these dirty operations, are not going away. They’re being sold to private equity. What’s happening is they’re shifting into the shadows, and private equity, in some cases, is tripling production on these really dirty fossil fuel operations. Yet, private equity is opaque, it’s non-transparent, it’s non-accountable. I’m not even convinced that Harvard knows what’s going on inside the private equity funds that it’s investing in because what they’re focused on is the return. This is how the system… you could call it a willful blindness. You could call it an inadvertent blindness. But there’s a built-in blindness to the effects of what we’re doing. Colin Bruce Anthes Because some people are just being professionals, doing their job, making sure that the company or the organization gets what it’s supposed to get. Marjorie Kelly Yeah, that’s right. We have narratives that tell us this is seeking maximum returns for investors. That’s benign. That’s normal. That’s technically necessary. You have asset managers who are moving assets up the risk-return spectrum; that’s how they say it. We’re going from the public markets to the private markets. What they don’t say, what they don’t see is that we might be destroying jobs, we might be trashing the env

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