Talk About Talk - Executive & Leadership Communication Skills

Communicating with confidence: there’s the mental preparation, then there’s confidence in the moment. In this first of a two-part series, we focus on the 4P’s of mentally preparing to communicate with confidence: Practice, as in rehearsing; Proverb, as in adopting a mantra; Pep talk; and Pirate, as in copying that confident feeling.   Connect with Andrea & Talk About Talk: Website: TalkAboutTalk.com Communication Coaching Newsletter:  https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Youtube Channel: @talkabouttalkyoutube Re-release of ep.58. The post #131 Mentally Preparing to Communicate with Confidence appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Andrea answers nine communication skills questions from Talk About Talk listeners, including how to deal with negative people, how to network when you’re working from home, gender differences in communication, and more.   Resources: “Smart Brevity” book by Jim VandeHei, Mike Allen & Roy Schwartz “Your Brain at Work” by Dr. David Rock (S.C.A.R.F. model) Ep.39 “Dealing with Negative People” with Tamara Finlay    Connect with Andrea & Talk About Talk: Website: TalkAboutTalk.com Communication Coaching Newsletter:  https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Youtube Channel: @talkabouttalkyoutube   The post #130: Communication Skills Q&A with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Power is everyone’s business. In this episode, Andrea interviews Professor Tiziana Casciaro, author of POWER FOR ALL. Learn 3 fallacies or misconceptions we commonly believe about power, how we perceive power, and how we communicate or signal power.   RESOURCES Power For All Book: Audible Paperback Tiziana’s Top 3 Podcasts: The Ezra Klein Show Science Vs  Ground Up Governance Connect with Andrea & Talk About Talk: Website: TalkAboutTalk.com Communication Coaching Newsletter:  https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Youtube Channel: @talkabouttalkyoutube   TRANSCRIPT Power.  What do you think of when you hear the word POWER? If you’re like most people, the word power may be a slightly dirty word. Like networking or sales. Power? Power for all? What the heck does that mean? Welcome to TAT episode #129, Power for All.  I hope you have an open mind. Because after you’ve listened to this episode, you’re going to have a different idea about what power can and should be. First, let me introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m YOUR executive communication coach. Please call me Andrea!  I’m the founder of Talk About Talk, where I coach communication skills to ambitious executives to help them elevate their communication, their confidence and their clarity, so they’ll get noticed for the right reasons and ultimately get promoted!  That’s my goal here.  I want to help you accelerate your career trajectory. If you go to the Talk About Talk.com website, you’ll find many resources to help you out. There’s information there about one-on-one and group coaching, online courses, corporate workshops, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, AND, I really hope you’ll sign up for the Talk About Talk newsletter. That newsletter is your chance to get communication coaching from me every week. I choose a communication topic and coach you on 3 things related to that topic. Alright – Because you listen to this podcast, I’m going to guess you have a growth mindset and you read a lot.  Or at least you try to. Recently when I was browsing in Audible, I came across this book. Power for All That was written by one of my favorite colleagues at the University of Toronto, professor Tiziana Casciaro. Of course, I downloaded and devoured it right away. After I finished the first few chapters, I decided to e-mail Tiziana and ask her if I could interview her for this episode.  I love this book! Lately my strategy for consuming books has been listening to them. I listen when I’m getting ready in the morning. I listen when I’m outside going for walks or gardening, and I listen when I’m in my car. So I manage to get through a lot of books. And when I really like one – like this – one power for all, I usually go to the bookstore and also buy a hard copy of the book. Then it’s easier for me to reference back to it. And of course, I’m happy to support my favorite authors. Anyway, I’m really excited to have reconnected with Tiziana and to share our conversation with you.  Whether or not you decide to buy and read the book, you will learn a lot from this episode. Let’s get into this. I’m going to start by introducing Tiziana right now, and then get into the interview. Please stay tuned to the end, because I’m going to summarize with my top three favorite insights from this interview. Always – the power of 3, right? Let me tell you a little bit about Tiziana. Our careers have crossed paths twice before. Years ago, Tiziana was on the faculty at Harvard Business School when I was a doctoral student there. And then we both served on the faculty at the University of Toronto Rotman School of Management, where she’s now a Professor of Organizational Behavior and the Marcel Desautels in Integrative Thinking. Tiziana is originally from Italy, as you will hear from her beautiful accent. She received her B.A. in Business Administration from Bocconi University in Milan, Then her M.S. and Ph.D. in Organization Science and Sociology from Carnegie Mellon.  Her research on organizational networks, professional networking, power dynamics, and change leadership has appeared in top academic journals in management, psychology, and sociology, and has received distinguished scientific achievement awards from the Academy of Management.  (Yep, she’s a smart one.  And her research is making an impact.) Thinkers50 recognized Tiziana as one of the 30 thinkers most likely to shape the future of how organizations are managed and led. She regularly publishes in the HBR, and her work has been featured in the Economist, the Financial Times, the Washington Post, the New York Times, CNN, Fortune and TIME magazine.  In this episode,. , you’re going to hear our conversation about the book she co-authored with Julie Battilana, who serves on the faculty at Harvard Business School. The book is called Power, for All: And the subtitle is “How It Really Works and Why It’s Everyone’s Business”.  Like I said, this award-winning book is going to change how you think about Power.    INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Thank you so much, Tizana, for joining us here at Talk about Talk to talk about your book, Power for All. Tiziana: Thank you for having me, Andrea. Andrea: I’m so excited for this conversation. Tiziana, I want to start with a definition because different people have different things in mind when they think about power. So can you define power for us? Tiziana: Absolutely. And you’re right that the definitions are bound and we have to pick one that helps us the most. And my wonderful co-author, Julie and I picked the following Power is the ability to influence the behavior of others. So influence is kind of embedded in the definition of power. And what makes it comprehensive. That definition is that influence can take multiple forms, some benign like persuasion where influence you by depicting a future, a possibility, a goal, a scenario that is attracted to you and you want to kind of hop on and influence you because you want to be there. And influence can also be a little bit more malign in the form of coercion where influence you a change your behavior by force because make you and all of that is belongs under the umbrella of power. Andrea: Okay, So you brought up influence, which was going to be one of my next questions because I want to compare Power to some other terms that we throw around when we’re talking about similar things. So. Is it necessary if there is power to have asymmetry? Tiziana: Not necessarily, no, because power is relational by construction, meaning don’t have power in the absolute. I have power relative to someone in a specific context. So this is really a very social definition of power. So if you think about where does this ability to influence others come from? Where does power come from? It comes from my having something you want or need, and you needed me to get it. Such that it’s not easy for you to get access to that thing you want from someone other than me. In that sense, I control your access to something you want and I can influence you because you depend on me to get that desired thing. Got it. So in that sense, that’s right. In a sense, power can go both ways, such that I may have something you want and it’s hard for you to get it elsewhere. So you depend on me, so that’s okay. But we’re not done in understanding our power relationship because you could also have something I want and also may find it hard to get it from people other than you. And therefore, in that sense, we have a mutual level of power on each other. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that I lose power if if you gain some, we could both be increased in our mutual dependence. Andrea: Got it. Okay. So it is. It depends on the person and then or the at least dyad, if not more. Right. And also on the context. Absolutely. Okay. So. How does it differ from leadership or how does leadership play into this? Tiziana: So you can you can see that leadership is an exercise in influence because, you know, again, you can define leadership in a million different ways. Sometimes you have the very straightforward definition. It’s basically the act of leading a group of people. Which is almost tautological. Leadership is leading, but the idea is you conduct people in a certain direction and intrinsic to that leadership is influence because you cannot direct them. You cannot conduct them anywhere if they are not changing their behavior in response to your leadership. So without influence, there is no such thing as leadership. Power is essential to any leadership endeavor. Andrea: Got it. You will be quoted on that, too. I can guarantee it. Okay. Okay. Okay. So as I was sharing with you, talk about talk, we talk a lot about the power of three. And when I was reading your book first listening to it, then reading it, I was thrilled to see that you’ve identified three fallacies of power, which I think really help define further, define what power is. So can you take the listeners through the three fallacies of power? Tiziana: Absolutely. That the number three is a magical you know, it has a way of working all the time and it allows us to kind of zero in on something that we can’t remember. So the first of the fallacies of power. Is that it is a pretty much absolute, like we said before, that it resides in the person. That is something that you have. You, Andrea, are powerful. In the accident. And that is never, ever, ever, ever True power is always relative to the person in front of you, the group in front of you, the multiple people that you are trying to influence so may have power over you in this moment. But the circumstances change and all of a sudden don’t. And we observe this all the time, except that we tend to personalize power. We tend to attribute it to people as a as a set of characteristics or traits or backgrounds that allow somebody to be particularly influential in a given context. But it’s always context driven. So we have to kind of disentangle ourselves from this notion that we are to attribute a lot of power to certain people and not to others, because that changes over time as the circumstances change. Andrea: So it’s so power is not permanent. And I’m thinking in my head about when people say, oh, he or she is so powerful. It’s like, you know, in that statement, it sounds as if they believe that it is, as you said, a trait when in fact it’s not a trait and it’s not permanent. It’s just context dependent. Tiziana: That’s right. And of course, you know, there is something to be said about certain characteristics and things a person can offer being relevant in multiple contexts. Right. That make you relevant and therefore powerful in multiple contexts. So the infamous notion of charisma. Yeah, that is as nebulous as it sounds, really is a representation of certain things you do say moves. You make feelings that you elicit in others. They make you attractive to them in their in their particular set of circumstances. And that could potentially translate if you have a certain intelligent, piercing intellect or sense of humor or capacity to understand the future and help people understand a big picture. Those are those could be things that are relevant to multiple circumstances that lead people to think, oh my God, Andrea, such charisma. And all of a sudden we attribute this kind of permanence of power to your person when in fact, you know, it is always circumstantial and changeable. And that’s important to understand because it frees us to reshape that power relationship when it’s not working for us. If we believe that it’s a trait that is going to be with you no matter what, I’m going to be intimidated and and discouraged from trying to mess around with your power. But if I go like, well, you know, it’s right now, it’s in this moment. The Andrea is so cool and everybody follows her. But we can change that. We can change it. Don’t mean to do that to you, by the way. I’m really happy. Go on, Go on. Powerful. Very happy. Very happy. But, um, it. It makes us a little bit more agentic. In acting on a situation because we’re not prisoners of this notion that you are just it and nothing’s going to change it. Andrea: I can imagine that being very. I was going to say powerful. So I won’t say that that would be very, I guess, important to consider. For example, if you’re in a negotiation and you have this idea, this preconceived idea that that your person that you’re negotiating with is powerful. Right. Maybe there’s a context that you can change. Okay. Tiziana: That’s right. You can certainly open up different possibilities in finding territory that you can work within with that person without being captive of this aura. And that leads me to the second fallacy that we see all the time, people assuming that power and authority are one and the same. So you are in an organizational context would be a company, could be a public institution, could be whatever. And there are the CEOs. There are the presidents, there are the senators, there are the VIPs. And because of their rank in the formal hierarchy, we attribute lots of power to them. It’s not completely off because, of course, they have some power. By definition, if you are in a certain positional role, you may have decision making power and control over resources as a subordinate. Need and want. If you’re my manager, you control my performance evaluation. That in turn controls my compensation, my promotion ability, my ability to land in a team that I really want to work with. So you do control valued resources that are really, really would like to have access to. In a sense, you do have power, but the things that people value are much more varied than that, such that we encounter all the time situations where you have this executive with potentially even a good strategy, a strategy that makes sense. It’s good on paper, but they can’t execute it and they can’t execute it because the strategy doesn’t speak to what the people they’re supposed to implement it really want. And so they push back and so they resist because you haven’t figured out what thereafter and you’re not offering it to them through this vision of yours. And you lose them along the way. So you, you, your ability to influence them wanes, basically. So this notion that power and formal authority are one and the same needs to also be thrown to the side because it captures only part of the action, there’s much more that can lead you to gain power than just formal rank. Andrea: Yeah, we’ll get into the power mapping in a minute, but you’re reminding me of some examples in my past work history where we were focused on instituting some organizational change and we were purposefully seeking the opinion leaders, right? These are the opinion leaders who have the power. And I know I remember also in your book you have the example of the maintenance workers in a manufacturing plant. They really have all the power, right? Tiziana: Yeah, absolutely. They control the one thing that everybody needs, which is a working machine. Exactly. You know, if can produce anything and you’re paying me based on production and these machine maintenance folks don’t tell me how to fix the machine, they hoard that knowledge so that we all depend on them. And it’s simple as that, right? Andrea: So we’ve got power is permanent. No, it’s not. Power is a function of authority and formal status or rank in a hierarchy. No, it’s not. What’s the third fallacy? Tiziana: The third fallacy is that power is dirty. Power is dirty business. That is predicated on coercion, manipulation, meanness, cunning, all the bad stuff, just like authority. It’s not the case that power is never dirty. It can be right. It often is. And it’s and it’s the the version of power that we pay more attention to because human beings have to be especially attuned to the negative because the negative can kill us. So evolutionarily we respond to negative instances of power use more than the positive. So we had the Lia Grimanis who changes the world for better by helping these homeless women. We don’t even remember that. But we remember all the house of Cards type people that use manipulation, right? To get ahead to achieve their goals. And they step on everybody’s bodies and they don’t care. Yeah. So this is all true. But again, it misses some of the important facets of power that really would would allow us to have the impact that we want because power is nothing but energy. It’s the energy to affect the world around you. And like any form of energy, it can be used for constructing purposes or destructive ones. A hammer is a hammer. I can use it to put a nice picture on the wall in my office. I can use it to smash somebody’s head. Tiziana: I can use it in all kinds of different ways. It’s still a hammer. So much of the decision when we when we deal with power is not only how we how we’re going to get it, which is very important, but what you can do nothing. You’re paralyzed without it. But once you have acquired it, how are you going to use it? Toward what? And that is more the moral ethical dimension of it. But if you let yourself be caught in this notion that power is devious. And if you engage with it, you’re going to get dirty in the process. You’re going to be dragged down into the mud. Then you’re never going to get to. Really. Make it part of your life and you’re going to lack the essential energy that we all need to accomplish anything. Anything. You want to be promoted. You need power. You want to change this process in your organization that you think makes no sense. You need power. You want to make your neighborhood a little bit more welcoming and safer. You need power. Everything we want to do requires it. So we better learn to take the good and create guardrails so that we don’t fall in the bad quite as easily as one can when it comes to power. Andrea: Oh, wow. Tiziana, I’m recalling now the first time I told you I listened to the book and then I read the book the first time I was listening to it. I think it was when you described this third fallacy that I was like, I absolutely need to interview Tiziana about this book because I experienced the same thing with my clients with reference to several other terms. In fact, you know, even marketing just starting at a high level, right? People say that say sometimes marketing is manipulative. Manipulative. Well, no, it can be, but it’s not inherently so. Same thing with networking, which I know is very near and dear to your heart and the research that you do. A lot of people feel icky about networking, but networking itself is. I guess, benign. It’s an opportunity, right? And it can be done in ways that that create good or maybe, maybe not. But it’s not networking itself that is negative. And it applies even to personal branding, right? So some some of my clients, they’re like, oh, that feels so manipulative. And I’m like, Well, if you’re telling lies about yourself, maybe. But if you’re creating a narrative that’s already true, that inspires you and communicates to others the truth about yourself, how is that a negative thing? Right? So. Oh, so this I love this third fallacy the most. If I had to choose a fallacy, this is the fallacy that I love to think about. That’s right. Tiziana: Yeah. You’re speaking. You’re preaching to the choir. Because I feel very strongly that we allow those kinds of perceptions to to be not only determining of our behavior, but. And they prevent us from understanding where those reactions come from. So the example of personal branding is very good because as you said, well, you know, if I am lying about my personal brand, that’s one thing. But if it’s an honest representation of me. That already changes things. And so we found the same logic with networking. So there are two reasons really why people feel icky about networking and people do. Not everybody, of course, is always a nice distribution of responses to any and all of these things. But a lot of people fall in this trap of finding networking. Aversive. One because they think that inauthentic. In that moment. If I go to a networking event. Infamous networking event. Yeah. Which is, by the way, not the only place for your network because you and I are networking as we speak right now. Right. We are reconnecting for this fabulous podcast of yours after not seeing each other for a while. This is an opportunity for us to know what each one of us has been up to. Maybe find territory where we can cooperate, we can find some learning. So there are many opportunities for you to network that are not inauthentic. But when we go to those networking events, we feel pressured to present a certain persona, a certain facade that doesn’t represent us really faithfully. And that’s where we feel the moral contamination of the activity. Anything that is dishonest is morally a little reprehensible, and we feel we know it. And the second reason why people feel that networking is a little yucky is that it tends to be selfish. And, you know, our network. Typically when has my career to enhance my prospects? And you could be networking to make the world a better place. Right. But not everybody does that. Let’s face it, for the most part, it’s a kind of self-focused activity. Andrea: Yeah. And can I just can I just interject? I have to mention one of my colleagues that I work with a lot. She’s an executive recruiter named Sharon McGinn. She and I have coached many executives to change this paradigm of networking from being a selfish thing that we feel icky about, to feeling like it’s an opportunity to provide value. And once you enter into, you know, the proverbial networking event with a mindset of generosity and adding value, it changes everything. Everything. Yeah. Tiziana: And that is very much rooted in this reaction that we all have that we feel more morally worthy when we do something that is altruistic. We behave selfishly all the time. Of course we do. But. But our our moral setup as humans gives value to altruistic acts from a moral standpoint. So if you do exactly what you described, the notion that when you focus on giving in networking, how can I be of help to you? How can I make your life easier? How can I help you achieve your goals? How can I contribute to making your professional life better, more successful? More effective? You’ve changed the focus of the activity and relieve the person of this moral weight that comes with it. Likewise, if you focus on networking, something you want to do to learn to grow. That’s what I do when I go to any of these conversations, any of these lunches, any of these conferences. I always aim to meet somebody new that can teach me something I didn’t know. That’s all I really want. And then in the process, I might teach them something they didn’t know. And then it becomes mutually beneficial, mutually enhancing. Tiziana: And that’s where the best relationships really are, the ones where, you know, we find joy and growth and a sense of possibility in learning from one another and giving each other a little bit of support. Nobody feels guilty about exploiting anyone and nobody feels useless because we all want to feel that we have impact that we had. We meet something. If you want to talk to me, that’s hugely enhancing for me because it means that you find value in the things I have spent time researching and writing. You’re already giving me a valued resource, which is my self-worth. Or in this conversation, is that a bad, nasty networking exploitation? Not at all. It’s a mutually beneficial interaction that can make us both better. And that’s very much the logic. And it comes right back to power, right? Because power is control over acts, over resources that you want. Right. And in this interaction, we both have some things that the other person appreciates, and we’re simply exchanging them in a way that can make us both better. What’s wrong with that? But you have to reframe it in your mind. You doubt it? Andrea: Yeah. I love this. I love this. So I want to shift gears a little bit into the So what for the talk about talk listeners. Right. So so what what does this mean about what I can and should be communicating in this context of understanding how power and asymmetries of influence and the fact that many of us think power is a dirty negative thing. I think a great place to start at Tiziana might be in terms of power mapping. I find this content, this idea to be fascinating. So. Tiziana: Yeah, I like this pivot because. You’re right. You’re interested in the power of talk. The power of what you convey with your image, with your words, with your all kind of external signs. And that’s very relevant to power, because power is not only substantive. It’s also perceived. And you, through your talk, your way to present yourself in the world. Are conveying. That you have value. In the eyes of the audience. I may have resources that you desperately want and you cannot get anywhere, but you don’t know it because I have not conveyed the existence of those resources and their importance to you. I have not done enough to understand your needs. At this point in time and telling you a story where I demonstrate that I could satisfy those needs. That’s all about talk. It’s all about how you present yourself. It’s all about how you narrate the story wherein I can be very useful to you. Yeah, I can provide something that you value deeply. So it’s completely intrinsic to to the story because it’s not just substance, it’s also presentation. It’s also perception that drives it. Andrea: I was going to say some it can be communicated explicitly or directly. And I’m thinking of, you know, some movie scenes where someone says, you know, I have all the power here or, you know, what I could do to you. Right? But it’s perhaps more often communicated implicitly or indirectly. Right. That’s right. That’s right. You reveal your resources. You reveal your influence without being so explicit about it. Tiziana: Yeah. And power mapping is in part the exercise of understanding who has influence in a in a certain social context. It could be a business, It could be a community, It could be a group in which you work a team and you observe their behavior. The the subtle or not so subtle signals they send out. To understand if they are the ones who are holding the resources that everybody wants around here. Yeah, if they are the ones that people lean on to get access to what is important and that could be knowledge of certain technology, perhaps that becomes particularly critical for the organization to master and acquire and realize that entry is the only one who knows that. And you become instantly influential in that context because we all need you. You just just brings to mind that movie Hidden Figures about the African-American women who worked at computers at NASA. And they were literally doing computational work by hand with pencil and paper. Yeah. Up until the introduction of the computer the IBM made. And that is a good example of understanding the shifts in the landscape where you say, okay, up to this point, the resource that your organization valued was ability to do handwritten computations accurately and with speed. Yeah. Ibm shows up. And he shifted because their ability to compute by hand becomes all of a sudden obsolete. And these women were so attuned with the shift in what what resources become relevant that they could acquire the new technology which was came in this in the form of learning how to program in Fortran. Remember Fortran? Andrea: Maybe I do too young. Tiziana: And they decide to navigate the power landscape in NASA toward acquiring that resource that had become relevant. So power mapping is all about monitoring the environment so that you only pick up on who has access to what’s valued right now. But you’re also able to predict what will become variable. And then you position yourself accordingly so that you don’t lose relevance in that context. This is something that goes back to the fallacy that power is intrinsic to a person, but it is not because the moment IBM shows up with a new technology and you are stuck in your old capability, you become irrelevant very quickly. Right? So we need to be in tune with that and sometimes in power mapping the talk. How people express themselves conveys signals as to their power, their relevance. They may actually sometimes not be substantiated by actual resources that they have control over. It could be all talk and no action, but at least for some time, it can lead people to think, Oh my God, you know, really that guy I really need to cultivate because he’s so critical to what we do. Look at, look at the look at the way they walk around. But so it can be pure, pure appearance. But it may take a while for people to scratch under the surface and understand it. And so it can carry you for a while, even without something very substantive. Of course, in the long run, substance matters and it shows up. But power mapping includes also this perception that people are able to construct around them. Andrea: Right. Okay. So I want to I want to get into the perception and you said the word signaling love that word. I use that word a lot in my dissertation signaling. But before we do that, I just want to summarize. So in my mind, before I read your book, if I was thinking about power mapping in the context of power and social network analysis, I would be thinking of a physical network that I would draw on a sheet of paper where I have all these individuals and I’m drawing lines with arrows of who has influence over who. And the big thing here that I’m getting is that it’s it may be that, but it’s in a specific context. And so if you’re really going to use this tool of power mapping effectively or optimally, you’re going to think about what the current context is and what might change. Tiziana: Absolutely. And that the instability and the constant dynamics of where we are are part of our mapping. This is not a geographical map that, you know, pretty much the mountain is there. And yeah, unless something really major happens, the mountains are going to be there in 100 years and social maps are extremely variable, right? So we have to stay with it. And that’s why the two skills of our mapping are dynamic by definition. They are observation, literally looking around, even in this moment, you and can infer some things from the background of our calls. Andrea: Of course you’re speaking my language, right? Yeah. Tiziana: Already you’re conveying something and then inquiry, asking questions. Sometimes something you cannot observe. You’re not in the car, don’t get to be in your room. They’re seeing what what you have in your office, the signals, your interests, the people you love. I don’t have that. So I have to ask questions. I have to ask around. Say, what’s up with Andrea? Why is she been. I don’t know, a little bit distant lately, and people might give me insight into what goes on in your life. So that would. Oh, okay. She really needs this right now. Can I provide it? Okay. Connect with people who can help and all of a sudden become relevant to you. Not because I knew it from the start, but because I observed the environment enough and asked enough questions to understand you. And understanding you is the first step toward influence, because it allows me to identify what you have at heart in this moment. And how can be relevant to you in achieving the things that matter to you? Yeah, of course it has a dark side too, because could also find out the things you’re scared about, right? The things that elicit vulnerabilities and then can and can really stick the knife into that wound and use it to make you do things. Tiziana: Or I can use it to claim that I can protect you from these threats. And that will also be valuable. Right. But it’s the it’s the the dark side of how you deploy your power. And I want to acknowledge it because, yeah, the last thing you want to do when you present power as is more kind of neutral energy is to lead people to think that you are in some La-La Land of optimism where power is so wonderful and let’s all enjoy it, because we understand very well that power always has this double edged nature. Yeah, we do have to look out for it, right? But yes, the signaling is essential for my navigating who’s who, who wants what. Who is capable of providing valued resources, not because they say they can, but because they actually can. Yes. And you can scratch underneath this. This is appearance. We have politicians. They do this masterfully. They come out and they tell us, oh, only I can protect you. Andrea: Right. Andrea: Because. And permanent power. Tiziana: That’s right. That’s right. And exactly. And so the power education we all need is is the one that allows us to see through some of those signals, some of those words. So there you go. Well, you know, you say that. Yeah, but truly, Yeah. Can you do these things for for us? And can you even understand what the needs are? Uh, sometimes it’s enough to just understand what you want and can speak the right words to you. They make you feel that you will look out for me. Andrea: Wow. So. So, Tiziana, your your whole spiel there just really reinforced to me that this third fallacy really is the one. And you guess it sounds like you agree. It really is the one that people can get a lot of traction in. If we think about our perception of the word power and challenge ourself with it. And I have to say, I also certainly appreciate the responsibility that you’ve taken. Right. And you’re saying as someone who’s writing about it, I’m not in La la land. And it reminds me of Robert Cialdini’s work with his Influence book. He talks a lot about how influence itself is a benign thing, right? And even as Everett Rogers, the the author of Diffusion of Innovations, he also talks about. Andrea: Oh, right, right, right, right, right. Absolutely. Yeah. No, that’s right. Tiziana: And all of these all of these forces are forces. Yeah. That can be directed in whatever way. Yeah. Fit. And that’s where the moral reasoning that we are called to, to really elaborate on becomes essential because otherwise you see what we do see. Yeah, world is full of people that misuse and abuse power. Andrea: Yeah. So I just want to say I appreciate how this book is educating us on really understanding the power, not just how we can use it, but how we can see how others are using it. Sometimes in a way that’s not moral. If you want to use it, use that term. So I just want to get back to a couple of of the signals or ways that we’re communicating power. I know in the book you talked about power. People have initiative. They take action and they’re more persistent. Can you elaborate on that a little bit in terms of communicating power? Tiziana: Yeah, it has to do with. The infamous confidence that matters so much. Uh, to give people the. Yeah, the agentic sense of possibility that you can take action that have only the ability, but also the legitimacy to take action. And when you are always surrounded by signals that you are not. In the right group. In the right position. You’re not the right person to do something. It becomes very difficult to to have enough confidence to say, no, no, I am I can. And that the narratives we construct all the time, they make it more difficult for some people to move and try and take the initiative are very powerful. These are much bigger than just the individual or even the interaction that the the relationship. They’re out there. They’re very macro. They impose a certain view of what a woman can do. What a person of color can do. What a person with a disability can do. And the constraint or expand. Our sense of what we are able to do in this world. Are we legitimate people in pursuing a certain goal or are people going to say, are you crazy? Calm down, It’s not for you. People like you don’t do those things. Now we are we are living a society where, thankfully, most people. Feel that there can at least try certain things. But we have to go very far for a world where you and I would never, ever, ever, ever be doing this podcast. Andrea: Yeah. Tiziana: You we certainly would not be doing it. Showing our entire, uh, you know, wild hair, whatever. Yours is not wild. Mine is. And it doesn’t take much change to completely destroy the sense of possibility for different people. So if I’m subjected to that kind of feeling all the time, confidence that I can take action is put under pressure. And then, you know, it’s very difficult to find that initiative. And then you have to really. Dig deep and sometimes be lucky and sometimes encounter people that that give you the sense of confidence again. And and that’s why influence can be so beautiful. Imagine you are down in the throes of depression and the sense that there’s nothing for you to look forward to and somebody comes along. And injects a sense of possibility in you. That’s influence. Right. They have influenced you, but boy, is there a better form of influence. Don’t think so. And it’s all part of the same logic, but it can have magnificent effects on people. And it speaks to this idea that you need to be corroborated. By your census self, your capabilities, by the signals that the world is sending you. That is, say, of course, a woman can be in this occupation. Of the person of colour can achieve this level of prestige. But you need the signals to construct a story where you can be that. That’s why when Barack Obama. And give a speech of the. Yes we can. It was all a boost of the sense of possibility, the sense of capability that people sometimes forget they have. Sometimes it has to be a collective sense because the reality you’re trying to intervene on is just too daunting for a person individually to have effect. You have to join forces with others to do something. Andrea: But that is where. Tiziana: Confidence and the sense of yes can has to come from. Andrea: Got it. So before we get to the five rapid fire questions, I just want to finish up with two specific questions related to communication. One is about words or phrases maybe that we can use that will communicate how or maybe help us diagnose power in others. And then the other is with body language. So. So let’s start with words or phrases. Are there things that people say verbally that communicate power? Andrea: Um, you know, this. Tiziana: Is really complex territory because, again, much depends on the context. I’ll give you an example. I’ll give an example. When it comes to words and even body language, one of the things that we hear is that. A deeper pitch in voice. Andrea: Um. Voluble, voluble, projected speech so. Tiziana: That you are clear, you’re you’re loud enough that people can hear you. You take the initiative to speak up, to convey that you have a point of view, that you have the confidence and the ability to express it. All of that feeds the perception that you’re powerful. And then you have contextual features that change that. And always think about the great Meryl Streep. When she was playing Miranda Priestly, I think was the name of the character in The Devil Wears Prada. Yeah. She had noticed. Andrea: The people with power. Tiziana: Tend to speak softly. Andrea: But it is your job. Andrea: Listen to me. Not mine. Andrea: Maybe you. So and so. Tiziana: She plays. She plays Miranda that way through the movie. Yeah. So what are we to take away from the laws to convey power? Well, it depends on the circumstances and what you do. So, yeah, if am middle of the road trying to to to to show that I’ve got it, I may need to speak loudly enough. Confidently enough, slowly enough to show that I have it. But it much depends on how you perceive. So, for example. And this whole notion of. Conveying disappointment and anger. Does it make you look powerful or not? Andrea: It depends. Tiziana: Right. And in this particular case, gender is a huge determinant of the effects of conveying anger. On the perception that you’re powerful if you’re a man. A conveying that you are very disappointed. And really irritated and angry about the situation may convey that you have the standing. Andrea: So basically yell at us. Tiziana: And put us in our place. If you’re a woman in most circumstances. What happens is that you’re seen as hysterical if you convey anger. That you’re too emotional, that you can’t control those those reactions, and you have to calm down. And there are spectacular examples. I’m gonna send you a picture that you can put in the episode notes of the difference in the way the men and women have in expressing anger as a way to convey a powerful position. So you have to be very careful about interpreting those signals. You know about those better than I do. So I’ll leave it to you and your podcast to educate readers and listeners. What I want to underscore is that the context again matters a lot and it’s the interaction of the person that characteristics and that environment that makes a signal more or less effective. That’s why it’s not straightforward to say, Oh, speak more loudly or deepen your voice. It depends. If you are in Japan and you’re a woman and you deepen your voice like that, you look weird. Yeah. So you have you have to be very careful about how the signal is interpreted in that locale. Andrea: Got it. So it depends. I was going to say it depends on the context. But you’re saying it also depends on the person, him or herself, right? Yes, ma’am. Absolutely. Okay. Last question. Last question before the five rapid fire questions, I’m really curious what you think about power posing. Andrea: Oh, okay. Um. Tiziana: You remind me of some great conversation with Amy Cuddy, a young assistant professors way back in the day. Um, so. This is research that again, needs to be interpreted in the nuances. You cannot you cannot make a sweeping thing. And so there are two components of it that I think have different implications for what we make of our poses. One is how I feel when I do a power pose. The other one is how I’m perceived by others after I’ve done the PowerPoints. And those is where I think that there’s some confusion. And my understanding of the research is that when I do the power pose, I do enhance my sense of possibility. Confidence. If I take up space and go like, Yeah, well, what, what? Andrea: Huh? Tiziana: Uh, I am enlarging my presence, I’m using space and I’m feeling that I’ve got it. Will you, as my interviewer, perceive me as more powerful? That is less clear. In fact, the results are wobbly enough. That wouldn’t necessarily count on it. But when it comes to enhancing my sense of power, which by the way, has enormous consequences for my behavior, I could be stupid and powerless, but if I think I’m powerful, I will behave differently. That could be helpful to me, at least in the short term. So it matters to feel powerful. Otherwise I’m not going to do anything because I don’t think I’m entitled to. I don’t think I can. It’s very important. Andrea: So let’s listen to. Tiziana: That side of the research without, you know, discarding the whole idea, because I think it’s it really does a disservice to how you can help yourself by enhancing your confidence in that moment. Andrea: Yeah. So usually when I’m coaching people and specifically these are folks that have, you know, issues with confidence and maybe imposter syndrome. So we do talk about power posing and in the context of self-awareness, right, where there’s internal self-awareness and external self-awareness. So internally you want to be aware of what your what your body is doing because you’re sending signals up to your brain. If you’re acting confident, you’ll think you’re confident in a good way, as you said, but also external self-awareness. How are other people perceiving you? So maybe you want to do the power pose, as you said, in the bathroom before you go into the room, as opposed to in the room when you’re, you know, having an interview or an important meeting or a presentation, right? Tiziana: That’s right. And all of those kind of, um, ways of presence. Tiziana: Um. Andrea: You know, have shown some impact. Tiziana: The what we where they it does, it does change,Attire makes you more confident. Andrea: Yes. Tiziana: That’s why, you know, when we have these big presentations, we, we wear certain things because it gave us a bit of an armor, a bit, a bit of a uniform of of status. It’s a signal that does have repercussions for our actions, how we speak, the impact we have on on others. So we should not discount those presence things that Amy and others talk about. Yeah, although we have to be careful, of course, about the nature of the scientific results because we don’t want to sway people based on evidence that is just too weak or too wobbly to be counted on. But the body of work has a lot of stuff that we can draw from. Andrea: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Okay, Ready for the five rapid fire questions? Andrea: Guess so. Tiziana: I don’t remember what they are, so you’re gonna have to remind me. Andrea: Okay. Question number one, What are your pet peeves? Tiziana: Oh, God. Lateness. Lateness is a bit of a problem for me. Um, so when I am late, I hate myself. I find it not very thoughtful of others, but my biggest pet peeve. Andrea: Biggest of them all. Tiziana: Is the changes of behavior upward and downward that some people have. That is a signal of weak character and mean intention in my book. So if I observe somebody, behave very, very pleasantly upward and very unpleasantly downward, those people are not in favor. Andrea: Oh, wow. Yeah. Tiziana: So very quickly, when when see that. Andrea: There’s a saying about having your hand up but then kicking down. Oh, yeah, it’s. Yes, ma’am. Absolutely disgusting. Disgusting. This isn’t very rapid anymore. But with regards to your your, um, dislike for tardiness or lack of punctuality, I read this on LinkedIn a couple of years ago, and I thought it was brilliant. It was, you know, a quote box, and it said, No, you’re not sorry, you’re late, you’re disrespectful and you’re rude. Andrea: This. This is when saying, oh, sorry. Tiziana: Rubs people the wrong way. Because if you had been really sorry sometimes there are, of course, reasons. Yeah. Compelling reasons. But yeah, it’s a sign that you’re paying attention to the other. Andrea: That Exactly. Tiziana: It’s and in a sense of power as this mutually enhancing proposition that we could get so much out of. Contract is just one sign that you didn’t pay attention enough. Andrea: Absolutely. Well put. Okay. Question number two, what type of learner are you? Andrea: Uh. Okay. Tiziana: Um. Oh, Not kinesthetic. Oh, don’t think so. Um, visual and auditory, probably. Yes. Are the two. Remember the things I see and hear? Okay. Andrea: Introvert or extrovert? Tiziana: Off the Charts. Extrovert. Andrea: I thought so. Andrea: You? Me too. You and. You figured. Andrea: Question number four Communication preference for personal conversation. So what? What media platform or type of type of communication do you use? Tiziana: Yeah, I’m an email addict. Um, do much, much worse with the calls. Unless they’re video calls. Okay. The video call makes it feel like it’s a social. Like is it like it’s a party? Because see, all of you, I see you smiling, and that puts me in the right state of mind. The phone call is just. Just too, too dry to be appealing. Andrea: Uh, okay. Last question. Is there a podcast that you recommend the most lately? Andrea: Oh, man. Okay. Um. Tiziana: Oh, Can I mention three? Sure. Andrea: Three. Make it quick. Tiziana: Power three. Exactly. I mentioned the ones that currently I’m listening to the most, but they shifts over time. Yeah. One is maybe a little obvious is the Ezra Klein New York Times podcast only because the range of. Andrea: Insights. Tiziana: We go from politics to science to poetry, and that that variety appeals and it typically handled in interesting ways. Yeah. And listen to science versus. Which is a science podcast that debunks or explores different phenomena. It could be medical, scientific, whatever, and and draws on the science on the subject to make a determination. Science versus hearsay versus, uh, all kinds of misconceptions. And they clear them for you and they do a very beautiful and humorously, and I appreciate that. Andrea: That’s a new one for me. Tiziana: Yeah, no, I highly recommend it. It’s wonderful. You always learn something, and it’s based on actual scientific exploration and research papers. And, you know, as a PhD, you you appreciate that kind of evidence particularly. Yeah. And the third one is, uh, Sound Up Governance, which is a podcast by my friend and former colleague Matt Fulbrook, who is became an expert in governance. Um, you know, is a is a eclectic man with all kinds of interests, including a very good bass player. Tiziana: Learned a ton about how to govern a business enterprise. Finally corporate, you name it. And it has this podcast that even though I’m not a governance person, that’s not my field, it’s not what I do. But anytime you are leading anything. Automatically. You have to learn how to govern the interests of multiple stakeholders. And I’m finding this podcast. Always offering some insight that I hadn’t thought about. And and he’s also entertaining because, you know, he throws in a little bit of music in it. Uh, being a musician and it makes it a topic that could be very dry and profoundly boring. Uh, much more appealing and revealing of how we run our organizations. Andrea: Okay, awesome. I’m going to put links to all three of those podcasts in the show notes. Please. Is there anything else you want to add about power or about power for all before we know? Tiziana: No. The book itself and will only say that it’s a book meant for two very different kinds of people. The people that have struggled with their relationship with power found it frustrating or a bit unnerving and want to to relate to it in more kind of constructive ways. And it is a book for people who do have power. Who may need a reminder. Or what it means to do to do good work with it, to use it well, and to become happy with how you have deployed it in your life to a constructive goals. So it really speaks to these very different kinds of people that that have both embraced it almost too much. For those who have studied too much and they need to really relate to it. So hope everybody finds a bit of insight in it. Andrea: I. I definitely did. And I’m sure that the listeners will as well. Thank you so much for well, for writing the book and also for spending your time here with us. Thank you so much. Tiziana: Tiziana Thank you, Andrea, for having me. It was such a pleasure to chat with you again.   ANDREA’S CONCLUSION Isn’t Tiziana great?  I hope you’ll read the book and enjoy it as much as I did. But in the meantime, if there are three things that I hope you can take from this book. It’s the three fallacies. I think if you understand these three fallacies and start to recognize them in your conversations, in interactions. Both personally and professionally. You’ll have a leg up in terms of understanding interpersonal dynamics with regards to power.  The first fallacy is Power is permanent. No, it’s not. Power is not a permanent possession or trait. Rather, true power is always relative to the context or the person in front of you. We tend to attribute power to people.  In fact, we should attribute power to context. Have you ever noticed how Forbes most powerful list changes every year?  EXACTLY. The 2nd is that Power is a function of authority or rank in a hierarchy. No it’s not. There are many many exceptions to this. Consider the manufacturing plant where maintenance wkrs have the power. Or think about the opinion leaders in your organization who don’t have formal authority, they don’t have formal rank.  But they have tons of influence. And the last fallacy is that Power is dirty. Wielding power is a dirty endeavor, involving coercion or manipulation.   No it’s not. Simply put, power is not intrinsically good or bad. Rather it’s what we do with it that can be good or bad.  Kind of like networking, and some other charged terms. Networking itself is not bad.  Power is not bad.  It’s what we do with power that can be good or bad.  And ye,s power can certainly be used for good. This is one of my favorite points in this book. It’s an optimistic and inspiring way to think about power. And a reminder that Power is everyone’s business. There’s certainly a lot more to this book than the three fallacies that I just summarized here. I really hope you’ll read this book or listen to it. You can find links to. The audio and print versions of this book in the show notes. Thanks again to Professor Tiziana Casciaro for sharing her insight with all of us. It was so nice to reconnect. That’s it for this episode! If you ever have any questions or suggestions for me, I LOVE hearing from you!  There are multiple ways you can connect with me. Everythings on the talkabouttalk.com website so that’s probably the best place to start.  From there you can send me a message, connect with me on LinkedIn, and even leave me an audio recording.  Like I said, I’d love to hear from you – bring it on. And if you enjoyed this podcast episode, I hope you’ll share it with your friends and leave me a review on whatever podcast app you’re using. It really makes a difference and I appreciate it. Thanks for listening.  And talk soon! The post #129 Power for All with Professor Tiziana Casciaro appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Andrea shares what the research says about interruptions, how to respond to being interrupted, and advice for how you can effectively interrupt. (REPOSTED DUE TO UPLOADING ISSUE)   Resources Sally Farley “Nonverbal Reactions to Conversational Interruptions” (2010)   Connect with Andrea & Talk About Talk: Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Weekly Communication Skills Newsletter: https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup YouTube Channel: @talkabouttalkyoutube   TRANSCRIPT Wow. Do you remember that?  The year was 2020 and Vice Presidential candidate Kamala Harris was debating with, or should I say being interrupted by – her opponent, Mike Pence. Based on some of the research you’re going to hear in a minute, this scenario is not uncommon.  AND, based on the research, I’m guessing Pence was encouraged by his communications staff to interrupt her. Similarly, Harris was likely coached to not stand for it. All with good reason. Are you ready to talk interruptions? Welcome to TAT episode #128, INTERRUPTIONS.  In this episode, you’re going to learn about the various types of interruptions, what the research says about interruptions, how you can respond to being interrupted, and yes even some advice for how you can effectively interrupt.  First, let me introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m YOUR executive communication coach. Please call me Andrea!  I’m the founder of Talk About Talk, where I coach communication skills to ambitious executives to help them elevate their communication, their confidence and their clarity, so they’ll get noticed for the right reasons and ultimately get promoted!   If you go to the Talk About Talk.com website, you’ll find many resources to help you out. There’s information there about one-on-one coaching, online courses, corporate workshops, group coaching bootcamps, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, AND, I really hope you’ll sign up for the Talk About Talk newsletter. That newsletter is your chance to get communication coaching from me every week. OK, Interruptions. Yes, By the way, I fully recognize the irony here of me speaking into a microphone for this podcast.  You can’t interrupt me! LOL Just so you know where we’re headed, we’re going to cover 4 things: 1. Types of interruptions 2. What the research says – this is where it gets good 3. What to do when you are interrupted 4. Last: How to interrupt when you feel you must Types of interruptions  Given that you’re taking the time to listen to or watch this podcast, I’m guessing you have a certain premonition about what interrupting is. But I just want to remind all of us that there are MANY different types of interruptions. An easy way to think about the types of interruptions is to categorize them – categorize them in terms of the source of the interruption. So there’re interruptions from PEOPLE – others and even ourselves.  And then ther’re “NON-PEOPLE” interruptions, for example from our technology or from the environment. It could be an alarm or a reminder set on your or someone else’s phone. Or it could be a fire truck driving by with a loud siren. Or the crash of thunder. Or some other noise.  These things all distract and interrupt us.  They interrupt our thoughts and our conversations. Some of these things we can control. Of course, like turning off notifications on your phone or your laptop.  And other interruptions we can’t control. Then of course there are interruptions from PEOPLE. Sometimes we’re distracted and we interrupt our own thoughts and words. This is a lack of focus. More often, our thoughts and words are interrupted by others. It could be physical, like when someone taps you on the shoulder or walks into your office unannounced, or it might be verbal, someone interjecting or talking over you.  And when it’s verbal, it can be intentional or it can also be unintentional.  That’s something to keep in mind – some people aren’t even aware that they’re interrupting! These verbal interruptions from other people are what we’re going to focus on in this episode. Let’s first get into what the research says, then I’m going to share some ideas for what you can do about it when someone interrupts you.  What the Research says  Generally, the research tells us that interruptions have a negative effect on collaboration and productivity.  That’s no surprise. When people interrupt. Typically they disrupt conversation flow, resulting in MISSED opportunities and MISUNDERSTANDINGS. And of course, MISgivings! Interruptions can be perceived as rude and disrespectful, which can lead to negative feelings and strained relationships.  This might sound tautological, but interruptions are very disruptive. Interruptions can result in missed opportunities, misunderstandings, and misgivings. I like this…. OK – So who’s doing all this interrupting? Well, it varies by culture, by gender and by status, or power. At a cultural level, research shows that individuals from more collectivist cultures. Such as in Asia, tend to interrupt each other less frequently than individuals from more individualistic cultures such as in the US. When it comes to gender and interruptions, research shows that in mixed gender conversations, men tend to interrupt more frequently than women. Research also shows that women are more likely to BE interrupted by men than by other women. And this dynamic holds in both professional and social or personal contexts. Comes to power or status and interruptions. The results of the research probably won’t surprise you. Sally Farley, a psychologist and faculty member at the University of Baltimore has studied these dynamics in depth.  Her research focuses on what happens, in terms of interrupting, and then also how we perceive it.  This stuff is fascinating to me. I’ll leave a link to some of Sally Farley’s research in the shownotes. In one of her experiments, Farley demonstrated that interrupters GAINED in status and TARGETS of interruption LOST status. And furthermore, people who were interrupted rated themselves as less powerful than those who were not interrupted. Also, interrupters, especially female interrupters, were liked less than those who did not interrupt. Now that I’ve read this research, I have even more respect for the quagmire that Vice President Kamala Harris found herself in onstage in 2020.  I thought she handled it beautifully. Farley’s research also shows that when someone more senior, higher up in the hierarchy interrupts, we perceive it as a sign of strength and assertiveness. But if a more junior person, lower in the hierarchy, interrupts someone who’s more senior, we perceive it as confrontational and rude.  I’m thinking a lot about power and status here – and I’m really excited to tell you I have another episode coming soon, focused on POWER. Anyway, let’s move on to what you should do when you’re interrupted. What to do when you are interrupted Being interrupted feels awful. It’s like the epitome of disrespect, isn’t it? Most of us, when we’re interrupted, our response is disdain. We stop and you can see the shock on our face. Then we might raise our voice. Or increase our volume so the other person isn’t even heard. Or to talk over them. Or even to lash out.  Sometimes these responses may be warranted, but I suggest a more strategic, thoughtful approach to responding to interruptions. First, I encourage you to Track the Ratio. What does this mean? If you’ve been listening to the Talk About Talk podcast for a while, you’ve probably heard me encouraging people to track the ratio. Tracking the ratio means mentally tracking the ratio of you talking versus other people talking. If you’re taking up more than your fair share, the best response to being interrupted MIGHT be for you to simply stop talking.  However, if you’ve been speaking less than your fair share, There’s an important question to ask yourself. Who is that person who’s interrupting you? Specifically, what’s your relative status? If they’re your boss, your manager, or your superior. Then the research shows that this type of interruption may be expected and does little to affect your status. In other words. In some cases, when you’re interrupted, the best thing to do is nothing.  On the other hand, if the person who interrupted you is a peer at work, they may be seeking status – or influence-  or power over you. They might even be trying to make you look bad so that they look good. Yes, the scarcity mindset. If they try it once, fine.  But if they’re a repeat offender, you absolutely need to address the Interrupter. Depending on the context, You could do so with humour “Hey, wait your turn, bud.”  But humor only gets us so far. How exactly do you respond to incessant interruptions? My suggestion is that you FIRST smile and take a moment. Pause and take a breath.  Then you establish direct eye contact with the interrupter and say their name.  Then calmly tell them you’re going to finish your point, after which you’d be happy to hear from them. Starting off your response by putting a smile on your dial and Pausing for a moment will Calm your nerves and provide you with a moment to consider your response. Establishing direct eye contact and stating the person’s name will get their attention and also direct other people’s attention to the rude interruption.  The exact words you use, of course, will depend on the context. If you’re brainstorming and someone interrupts you, then smile, pause, establish direct eye contact. And calmly say. Steve, I’d love to hear what you have to add. But first, I’m going to finish my point. If the Interrupter is trying to change the subject, Again, smile. Pause. Establish direct eye contact. And calmly say. Karen, I’d like to finish my point. Then we can move on.  If they’re overtly criticizing you and your ideas, you may have to be more emphatic. AGAIN – smile. Pause. Establish direct eye contact. And calmly say, George, before we move on to hear your perspective, please let me finish my point.  So that’s my advice on how to Respond to being interrupted. First, track the ratio and ask yourself honestly, what proportion of the conversation have I been talking. If you’re taking up more than your fair share, then, FRANKLY, the interruption may be warranted, and the best advice might be to stop talking and listen. If you’ve spoken less than your fair share, then the second step is to consider the person that interrupted you. If they’re higher status, you might want to let it go. If they’re the same or lower status than you, or if they’re competing for status, my suggestion is that you follow this formula. Smile. Pause. Make direct eye contact. State their name. Then tell them that you’re going to finish your point first, and THEN you would love to hear theirs. Got it?  One more thing here. If you’re a leader, watch for others interrupting, and give EVERYONE space to make their point.  Provide a forum, be it going one-by-one around the table – or even calling individual people out – to encourage everyone to speak their fair share. Moving on.  The last thing I want to cover here is How to Interrupt when you feel you must. Last: How to interrupt when you feel you must My first suggestion here shouldn’t surprise you. If you feel compelled to interrupt, first TRACK THE RATIO of how much you’re talking versus how much other people are talking. There’s all sorts of research out there that highlights that the less you talk, the less of the proportion of the total airtime in a conversation or a meeting when you take up. The Better. There’s research out there that highlights how when. Job applicants. Encourage their interviewers to speak more during a job interview. They’re more likely to get the job. Ditto for salespeople. The less talking they do, the more likely they are to make the sale. And even socially. Have you ever been at a party where someone just wouldn’t stop talking, they wouldn’t shut up? DO you remember how you felt about that person?  EXACTLY.  SO track the ratio.  But less assume you’ve spoken way less than your fair share and you have what you think is an important point to make.  Or perhaps you’re leading the meeting and you need to interrupt someone so others can be heard. My number one piece of advice is to be gracious and recognize or acknowledge the person you’re interrupting. Just like my previous advice, using their name is a great place to start. “Xavian, I agree this is an important point. Your point made me think of something else we should consider.”  Or  “Yvonne, this point is fantastic. Let’s make sure it gets recorded.  Who else has something to say?” DO you see what I did there? I respectfully and explicitly acknowledged the other person’s point. Then I opened it up for my point or others points. What I discourage is apologizing or seeking permission, unless of course you’re interrupting someone who has higher status. Which, as I said, is already very risky. But otherwise avoid saying things like “I’m sorry, but can I add something?” or “May I interject?” It just sounds weak.  You can be respectful without being apologetic. Be calm and respectful and recognize the other person’s point.  Alright that’s it!  Did you get all that? Let me summarize with 3 things I hope you’ll take away from this episode: 1. Not all interruptions are equal. The prevalence and our perceptions of interruption varies by culture, by gender, and by the relative status of the 2 people: the interrupter and the interrupted. 2. Two factors to consider when it comes to interruptions, whether you’re being interrupted or whether you’re considering interrupting someone else, Two things to consider are 1. What proportion of the conversation have you versus the other person been speaking?  In other words track the ratio.  And 2. Consider the relative STATUS of you vs. the other person. Remember: people expect the higher-status person to talk more. 3. My formula to help you respond to being rudely interrupted.  It’s this: (1) Smile. (2) Pause and take a breath. (3) Make direct eye contact, then (4) state their name and tell them you’re going to finish your point. If you got all that then you’re in great shape when it comes to interrupting. I want to conclude by sharing a quote from Adam Grant that I read recently on LinkedIn.  It’s this: “The most valuable person in the room is not the person who talks the most. It’s the person who says the most with the fewest words. The best way to contribute more is not to take up more airtime. It’s to increase your ratio of insight to airtime.”  WOW.  I like that. Increase your ratio of insight to airtime.  Brilliant.  Something for us all to aspire to! Like I said, I found this Adam Grant quote on LinkedIn. Please connect with me on LinkedIn. You can also subscribe there to my biweekly LinkedIn newsletter. Where you’ll. Get free communication skills coaching from me every second week. It’s a short newsletter, I respect your time. It’s also fresh and different content from the podcast and from the e-mail newsletter. I encourage you to subscribe. You can direct Message me on LinkedIn, If you ever have any questions or suggestions for me. Perhaps you have a suggestion for a future podcast topic? You could also go to the talkabouttalk.com website and leave me a recorded message there. You might even hear your voice on a future episode!  And I promise I won’t interrupt you. Alright, that’s it, Thanks for listening.  And talk soon! The post #128 Interruptions (REPOST) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

3 books recommended by Andrea: INFLUENCE, CHATTER and GETTING TO YES. Andrea & guest Adam Ashton, host of the popular “What You Will Learn” podcast, review these 3 books. You will feel a lot smarter after listening to this episode, and you might have some new books to read!   RESOURCES Books: INFLUENCE New & Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini CHATTER: The Voice in Our Head, Why it Matters, and How to Harness It by Ethan Kross GETTING TO YES: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In by Roger Fisher, William Ury & Bruce Patton NEVER SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE by Chris Voss THE SH*T THEY NEVER TAUGHT YOU by Adam Jones & Adam Ashton ATTITUDE by Adam Jones & Adam Ashton SMART BREVITY by Jim VandeHei, Mike Allen & Roy Schwartz Andrea’s Top Ten book recommendations (scroll down to “Top 10 Books”) Adam Ashton: Podcast website – https://www.whatyouwilllearn.com/ First Book – http://theshittheynevertaughtyou.com/ New Book – ATTITUDE Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/whatyouwilllearn/ Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1oQ6gWZqHHBgsrpIISZiAr Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/what-you-will-learn/id1125635053 Connect with Andrea & Talk About Talk: Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Weekly Communication Skills Newsletter: https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Youtube Channel: @talkabouttalkyoutube   TRANSCRIPT That was the wise Adam Ashton, our guest expert for this very unique TAT ep#127.  I was inspired to create this episode based on requests I’ve had from clients in 1:1 coaching or in workshops when my clients ask me, Andrea, what communication skills books do you recommend?  I read a lot and I’m ALWAYS happy to give book suggestions. Then I thought, wouldn’t it be great to do a book review – or 2 – or 3 – in an episode? And here we are.  You’re in for a treat. You’re going to hear a helpful summary of 3 highly relevant books that I recommend for ambitious executives who’re focused on improving their communication skills. The 3 books are INFLUENCE by Robert Cialdini, CHATTER by Ethan Cross, and GETTING TO YES by Fisher, Ury & Patton. This last one, getting to yes, I just want to mention right out of the gates. I pulled this one in particular because every single client that I talk to has read Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. It’s like the modern negotiation bible. I thought it might be helpful, therefore, to supplement that book with this older book: GETTING TO YES, which really serves as a foundation for negotiation skills. Yes, you’re going to feel SUPER SMART after listening to this episode! If you’ve been listening to the Talk About Talk podcast for a while now, you’ve probably come to expect a fairly regular structure to these episodes. I introduced the topic and then either I coach you and share insights and advice OR sometimes I interview a guest. Then I always summarize the main points for you at the end.  So this episode’s different – because instead of focusing on a specific communication skills topic, You’re going to hear a discussion about 3 different books that’re related to communication – as in persuasion for the book INFLUENCE, as in self-talk for the book CHATTER, and as in negotiation skills for the book GETTING TO YES.  You can think of this as 3 book reviews via podcast.  This is going to be VERY EFFICIENT LEARNING for you! And BTW, this podcast is also available with video as a vidcast on YouTube. So if you want to tune in there, you can see me, you can see my guest Adam, and you can even see the books. Oh my goodness, I haven’t introduced myself yet, have I? In case we haven’t met. I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki., and I’m your executive communication coach. Please – just call me Andrea.  I’m the founder of TAT, where I coach communication skills to ambitious executives. My goal here is to help you establish executive presence and accelerate your career trajectory. Sound good? If you go to the TAT.com website, you’ll find many resources to help you out. There’s information there about 1:1 coaching, online courses, corporate workshops, the archive of this podcast, AND, I really hope you’ll sign up for the email newsletter. That newsletter is your chance to get communication coaching from me every week.  I mentioned this a few weeks ago – I’m slowly upgrading the TAT website. There’s a new section under the ABOUT tab where you can find my recommendations for you, including my top ten books that I recommend to clients. Because you’re listening to this podcast, I’m gonna guess YOU have a growth mindset and you might also read a lot of books! OK, let’s get into this.  Here’s how this episode’s going to unfold. First, I’m going to introduce Adam. Then we’re going to get right into the interview. There won’t be a summary at the end, because… these are book reviews! You don’t need a summary of a summary.  But as I said, I encourage you to check the shownotes under this episode or on the tat.com website. There are links there to each of the 3 books, plus some other books we mention. In preparation for this interview, Adam and I both had some homework to do.  We both arrived with 3 points we want to share with you about each of the 3 books. (Yes, the power of 3!) These 3 points could be anything from – a key INSIGHT that we want to highlight, to-  a suggestion for how we can apply the learnings to our communication, to – whether or not we liked the book! And in case you’re wondering, I’m only reviewing books that I personally recommend. These are the books that I end up recommending to my coaching clients. So my opinion of each of these three books is very high, but as you’re about to hear, Adam’s opinion can be different. Alright let me tell you about Adam. Adam and I met 5 years ago when we were both participants in Seth Godin’s inaugural Podcasting fellowship. This podcasting fellowship brought together a group of hundreds of podcasters and wanna-be podcasters from all over the world, including Adam in Australia, and myself in Toronto, Canada.  As we were all going through this journey to build our podcasting skills, a few of the people in the fellowship stood out for me as exceptional. Adam was one of those people. So I wasn’t surprised that he created an incredibly successful podcast. Focused on, guess what? Books! He’s also a genuinely good guy, and as you’ll hear in a minute – he has an infectious laugh. He’s STILL laughing, despite being a sleep-deprived parent of a newborn! Adam’s podcast is called WHAT YOU WILL LEARN, where he and his co-host read a book each week and share what he calls “the best bits and the biggest lessons.”  After almost 7 million downloads (yes, 7M!), they compiled the best bits of their podcast into their first book, THE SH*T THEY NEVER TAUGHT YOU.  That was in 2021. Then just recently they published a new book ATTITUDE, where they compiled insights about attitude from some of the books they read and distilled them into five simple lessons: Vision, Change, Learning, Fear, and Boldness. Sounds good, doesn’t it?  I can’t wait to read it. NOW you see why Adam is the perfect guest for this episode?  Here we go! Andrea: Adam, thank you so much for joining us here on the Talk about Talk podcast for the first time for a book review of three books. Adam: Fantastic. I’m nervously excited to be here. I’ve definitely remember listening to your podcast in the early days, so I’m glad to finally be a part of it. Andrea: Oh, I am honored to have you here, Adam. I know your podcast is very successful and to be honest, I’m a little bit nervous too. But as I shared with you a minute just a minute ago, I’m really, really excited. So let’s get right into it. Adam and I have decided on three books that would be of interest to talk about talk listeners. They are influence, chatter and getting to yes. So we’re going to attack them in that order. And I’m going to start by sharing a little bit about the author. A really, really brief summary. Just so if you haven’t read of or maybe even heard of the book, you’ll have the general gist of what it’s about. And then we’re going to jump in. And Adam and I separately have prepared independently three points. If we were just talking about the book ourselves, three points that we want to make and share with the listeners and we talked about this offline. We both have notes. We are prepared for this. So if you see us looking down at our notes, that’s why we’re looking down. Um, so I guess we’re ready to get started. Are you ready, Adam. Adam: I am ready. Andrea: Okay, so the first book is by Robert Cialdini. I’ve got it right here. It’s called Influence New and Expanded the Psychology of Persuasion. And this book is written by Robert Cialdini. He’s a psychology prof at Arizona State Arizona State University, and he’s known as the godfather of Persuasion, due in most part to this book, which he first published in 1984. And I was telling Adam that I definitely read it in the 80s. And then I also bought it again in 2001 for this is the book that I bought over 20 years ago. Um, this is the third edition, which is much thinner. We’ll talk about that in a minute. Um, but that original book and the subsequent version of it, the new and expanded version, are based on mostly research that Cialdini did in his role as a psychology academic, where he worked as a car salesperson, a fundraiser, and in telemarketing to really understand the dynamics of persuasion, which to me is fascinating. And so he came up with at the time, uh, six ways to garner influence. And I am going to look at the camera and see if I can remember what they are. It’s consistency. Likability authority. Scarcity, social proof and reciprocity. And then in this most recent version, he added unity. And I’m going to tell you how I remembered what those were in a minute. But with that background, Adam, what do you think of this book? Adam: I think this is phenomenal. I read this probably not quite as early as you did in the 80 seconds, but I read it probably 2017, and it went straight to my sort of top ten best books I’ve read of all time. And I’d say it’s pretty close to staying there ever since. It hasn’t been knocked off the perch yet, I’d say, uh, I guess my, my first takeaway is kind of like this is like the go to book, I reckon, in terms of what do you put into the content to make it more persuasive, You know, those, those six or you know, now seven things that you listed. He originally calls them weapons of influence I think in his first book. And then he calls them levers. Now in the newest version, just to feel like they are weapon like depending how you use them. But I suppose levers is a is a more gentler way of putting putting it I think those 6 or 7 levers. Andrea: Sorry to interrupt. I think that’s why he calls them levers now. Right. Because many people that were a little nefarious with their objectives were weaponizing these. Yeah. Adam: Yeah. You certainly can weaponize the levers. But yeah, if you can if you can work those into like if you if you’ve previously used zero of those and then you read this book and you can use 1 or 2 or more of these levers in your content, I think you become like, you know, it’s not just like 10% more effective at communicating. It’s like ten x more effective, I reckon. Andrea: Agree. Agree. Anything else you want to add? Adam: There’s the two. I guess my when you ask for three things, the two that always stand out for me as my number two and my number three is always remember the foot in the door and the door in the face. I don’t know why they always they always stick out to me as as good ways of sort of remembering these. So the foot in the door is linked to that sort of commitment and consistency lever that you mentioned where it’s you know, you start with something small, you know, it could be a, you know, a very small favor or, you know, you could be giving away something for free or even a loss leader that you sell. And that foot in the door is saying that if somebody does something small once, they’re much more likely to do something bigger later. If you ask for the small favor now and they do it, all of a sudden they become the type of person that does favors for you. You’re someone worthy of doing a favor for. And then the next time you ask a bigger favor, I’ve kind of already done something, so they’ll probably do something more later so you can kind of build it up from there. So always remember the foot in the door. That’s a great one. And then and then I always I always remember the door in the face as well. Adam: I probably remember it because I didn’t get it the first time, but now I get it. Like because the door in the face is like it opens with a big whack. It’s not you’re not just sneaking the foot in there, you’re slamming that door open, whacking them in the face, and then you’re sort of going backwards from there, which is linked to the reciprocity one. So I’d say the big the big offer, you know, I want this right now and you’re going to you’re going to reject it because it’s too much of a big ask. But then by then, by them stepping way back and dialing it way back to something much smaller, then all of a sudden it’s like, okay, well, the other side, they’ve been, you know, they’ve been nice. They’ve they’ve, you know, they’ve dialed back their offer. They’ve been very generous in, you know, instead of charging, you know, 100 bucks and not charging 20 bucks for something, it’s like, okay, well, fine, I’ll do it. I’ll reciprocate as well. I’ll sort of come to the table and and play ball. So I kind of remember those two, the foot in the door and the door in the face for for different scenarios of achieving a similar thing. Andrea: Sounds a little bit like foreshadowing for getting to. Yes, which is the third book we’re going to talk about. Right. Like negotiating. You get your foot in the door and then you get the door. That’s it. Yeah, I love that, too. I love that, too. So my three points were just number one, that this is the classic influence Bible like it really did position. Cialdini As the as the Godfather, as I said, of persuasion that said when I just I guess reread, you know, the expanded version and when I went through it, there are a lot of old examples. It comes across as a little bit dated in some parts of it. He gives examples, for example, of shopping, but they’re all in store like people chasing each other for the Tickle Me Elmo dolls and so on, as opposed to things that would be on examples online. And I feel like it would have been nice to have more modern examples because I think sometimes the examples that you include, of course, if you could show over time, that is ideal. But there were so many old examples. The other thing that really struck me and I’ve noticed some podcasts or some older podcasters do this too, they talk about the radio days. So he gave a lot of examples, several examples of radio advertising, and I was like, Oof, how about podcasting? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I think this this book is fantastic and it has stood the test of time, but it does seem a little bit dated. And so now if some of some of our listeners are are picking up the book, they might notice that when they’re flipping through it. The second thing I want to say is my hack for memorizing the Seven Levers was I just listed them all and then I was like, What’s an acronym? And the word CLASS and then RU. So I was thinking in my head, I was like, “R U classy?” I like. Adam: I like it. Andrea: Yeah, that’s what I and that’s what I, you know, always did when I was trying to memorize stuff at school. So, so off the top of your head because. Adam: Normally I normally get like 3 or 4 and then forget the others and have to look it up. So now I can’t forget. Andrea: Now, are you classy? Just remember, Andrea said, are you classy? There you go. Oh, perfect. Yeah. And then the last thing I want to say about the book was. When I first heard, I actually attended a webinar about a year and a half a year ago, this this came out in 2021. So I guess it was probably a year ago or so where Cialdini was being interviewed and obviously he was selling his book and so he was talking about unity. And in my head I was like, Unity. Isn’t that the same as social proof? Um, and that said, I think in today’s world it really does deserve to be its own lever. And I read that thinking about social proof as peer pressure and unity as herd behavior is a really good way of distinguishing them. So that’s kind of my last point. Adam: Interesting. Yeah. Nice on that. On that first point about the datedness of it, I feel like I’m kind of resistant to the new version as well because of that. Like the, the old version when you know, it’s old, you know, 30, 40 years old and the examples are 30 for 30, 40 years old, that’s fine. That’s good. But when it’s meant to be new and then you’re still talking about the old stuff as well, I feel like I don’t know. I don’t know if it was a it was a cash grab or if he had more to say or, or what the the reasoning for it. Obviously, it’s a super popular book, so why not? Speaking of more updated edition, but. Andrea: This is how thick this is, You know, how thick the first version was. And this is it’s twice as thick. Um. Adam: Honestly, I’d recommend people read the older version. I don’t know if really if you think the same. Yeah. Andrea: So again, I think you know as a marketer also that. The world of commercial transactions and and interpersonal communication and broadcast media has changed so much because of the Internet that I think in order to stay relevant, you know, you really do need to put some new examples in there. So. Yeah, Yeah. Interesting. Adam: Interesting. Have you read his other book? Pre-suasion. Andrea: I feel like I might have, but I. Adam: I think it must have come out somewhere around like 2017. 2018 maybe? Yeah. Andrea: No, actually, no I didn’t. I remember seeing the, seeing the cover of it and I. Yeah. Did you read it. Yeah. Adam: Yeah I’d, I’d, I’d definitely recommend that as it’s it’s a, you know influences like a ten out of ten persuasions. Like a nine out of ten. Okay. Which is still very, very still very very high. It’s just not quite as at influence levels but the influence is obviously all about the content, you know, the things that you put into the message. And then Pre-suasion is about the context. So it’s sort of more about the delivery and a bit of priming and stuff like that. Um oh, that sounds. Andrea: Like something that I absolutely have to read as a communication coach, right? Adam: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam: The drawback is as well, some of the examples are a little dated in the sense of like talking about some early website. It’s obviously the research she did was probably from the early 2000. And like when you when you see the websites, you’re like, that looks like a website from the early 2000, even though the book was from like 2018. But so that’s probably the only, the only drawback. But I think like they work very well hand in hand. Oh, okay. The two, the two books. Andrea: Okay. So now our listener, now they have supplementary listening. I love it. And you have such three. Adam: You’re going to end up with like 10 or 12 by the end of this episode. Andrea: You have a fantastic laugh. I love it. Okay. Thank you. We’re going to move on now to the second book in our list, which is chatter, whoops, chatter, the voice in our head, why it matters and How to harness it. Andrea: So this book is written by Professor Ethan Kross, who who is a psychology professor at the University of Michigan. And he studies introspection, which I think about a lot. And this book was published a couple of years ago also in 2021. And it’s really a book about our self-talk, the voice in our head, which often sounds more like a critic, right? He uses the word rumination a lot, which I love because I think it’s just rumination sounds like so negative. And it just it’s it describes how I feel when I’m ruminating. Do you know what I mean? Um, and he shares all sorts of research. So much of it is primary his, his personal research that he’s done right and also from other sources. And then he shares strategies to help us overcome negative self-talk, as he calls it. So, um, so this is one of my favorite books on the planet. I’m just going to start by saying, um. Andrea: I was thinking before we logged into this conversation, Adam, if I had to choose three books that were my favorite of all time, this is definitely one of the top three. Wow. I believe that people who read this book, uh, will be affected. So. And and there’s a quote just inside the book by Adam Grant, who I’m also a fan of, and he says, quote, I’m reading this, quote, This book is going to fundamentally change some of the most important conversations you have in your life, the ones you have with yourself. So and and so. Not only is the topic helpful, though, and and, you know, important in our lives because the context of our self-talk like we’re constantly talking to ourselves. Right. But I think the way he wrote it is also just. Simply put, like it’s helpful in every way. So it’s a common issue. He provides academic research to provide guidance for us. It’s written a way that’s accessible and there’s a beautiful summary chapter at the end with literally a list of I think it’s like 13 things for you to consider. And so I listened to the book and I read the book and he says at the end, like, no one’s going to do all 13 of these or however many there are. Andrea: But if you can choose 2 or 3 that resonate with you, you know it’ll make a difference. And I can tell you that as a fact, because that’s what the research says. And I was just like, Oh my God, he’s really trying to be helpful. So that’s my first point. My second point is that. I recommend this book quite often to my clients who are suffering from confidence issues, and nowhere does he say this explicitly, but this book is really helpful for talking yourself out of. Imposter syndrome. So if you can apply the learnings from this book, you can, I believe and I can share some specific examples of of how it how things that he recommends could do that. But this book is if you’re suffering from imposter syndrome or if you could use a confidence boost, this is a fantastic resource for you. And. Being faced with confidence issues is one of the most common questions that I get as a communication coach right there. Like I just I feel, you know, like they’ll they’ll use the word I feel like an imposter or they’ll say like, I feel really nervous and I don’t have the guts to speak up or however they’re saying it. Andrea: And the contents of this book will help with that. And I prescribe it and people do love it. And then okay, so that’s my second point. And my third point is my favorite hack in this book. Is one of the main themes that he talks about a lot, which is socially distanced self-talk. So when you catch yourself ruminating or talking negatively in your head or calling yourself an imposter, he says, use second, say your name and talk to yourself in second person. So. Andrea You know you’ve got what it takes, Andrea. You know you’re prepared. Andrea, You got this. So talking to yourself like that. His research shows because they experimented like using first person, second person, third person or using a mantra or using this or using that, talking to yourself in second person. So say your name and then you and then da da da da is for many of my clients, honestly life changing. They’re they’re talking to themselves as if they’re they’re they are their own best friend and it’s working. So that’s my point. Number three, use socially distanced self-talk. Talk to yourself in second person. Adam: Fantastic. Adam: That’s good. One of my points was, well, we went from influence, which I said was like, you know, started top ten, probably still top ten for you. This book, Chatter is top three, which is awesome for me. This is at the other end of the spectrum. Yeah. Um, in the sense of the first time I didn’t finish it, I got about 3040 pages in and gave up. Um, which is a, which is, I suppose a bit of a rarity for me. But I feel like you’ve sold me. I feel like you’ve sold me. I need to give it another crack. I need to give it another shot. Um, my, uh, my main thing, my, my three things were number one only read 30 or 40 pages, then gave up. Number two, I’m keen to hear your top three. And then number three, you might convince me to revisit it. And I think you have. It’s not it’s not a it’s not a long book. It’s like 130, 180 pages. So yeah, Um, the one thing I want to add, aside from my own sort of negativity is I actually see this one pop up a lot, um, of friends talking about this or posting about this who aren’t, uh, you know, necessarily book readers or like I don’t know them through being book people. Uh, but I see them. It’s like the only book that they’ve ever posted about. So it must be something, isn’t it? If someone who’s not posting about books all the time decides that this is the one book that makes them want to post about, Hey, everyone should read this book, it changed my life. I think that’s a pretty good sell. Andrea: That is that is a very interesting observation and I would love to be inside your head. Adam, when you were deciding to put the book aside after 40 pages. Yeah, I know. I know from my own experience and talking to others, you just have to be in the right mindset sometimes. And I’ve reread books that, you know, at one point were my favorite book, and then I tried reading again and I was like, Oh, I don’t see what I saw the first time. And vice versa. I’ve because of recommendations, gone back to a book and then realized it was better than I thought. So I think it depends on. Adam: I think I think my guess is I think because it was it was kind of new. It was pretty popular. Saw people talking about it was like, oh, well, I have to read this book. And because I felt like I had to read it, I was like, Oh, this isn’t what I was expecting and then put it down. Whereas I feel like if like at some random point in the next six months, see it on the shelf, I’m like, Oh, I kind of want to read that book now. I feel like if I want to read it versus have to read it, then I feel like maybe I’ll be more open to it. And then and you might be. It might be we might come in talking another time, I’d be like, Hey, that was a that was a top three book for me. I don’t know what the hell I missed the first time. Andrea: That’s funny. Well, if you do read it again, no matter which way it goes, you got to tell me. Okay? Adam: So I’ll let you know. Andrea: Okay? Okay. Moving on to the third and last book. Oh, I have it here. Getting what? Getting to. Yes. Negotiating agreement without giving in. So this book was originally written by Roger Fisher and William Ury, who co-founded the Harvard Program on Negotiation, and it was originally published. Many years ago. Many decades ago. Over 40 years ago in 1981. And the new newest edition adds a third author who’s also at the Harvard program on negotiation with Bruce Patton, and thought it was really interesting, actually in the preface, how they talk about how he’s not just like an add on, he actually did significantly contribute to this latest edition. Um, so that said, before he joined the crew, Fisher and Ury are known as the godfathers of negotiation. Just like I actually read this online, they are the godfathers of negotiation, just like Cialdini is the godfather of persuasion, right? So here we are reading the Godfathers. Uh, I just realized none of our authors here are women. I just noticed that right now, that’s not good. Adam: Remember, we had a short list. We definitely had some women on the short list. They were? Andrea: Yeah, there were even some books about feminism in that list. So maybe we’ll do this again. But the one thing that I remember when I was at Harvard Business School, hearing all the students in the negotiations class talking about BATNA the best alternative to a negotiated agreement, and that is a big contribution of Fisher and Ury in this book. Um, it’s kind of like the thing that you take in day one of negotiations class, but just a summary of the book. There are four principles that they advocate for any negotiation, including including the BATNA also separating the people from the problem. So it’s not personal. It’s the problem or the challenge is what you’re focusing on. Number two is you focus on interests, not positions. And that’s when you may find more overlap. And I think that one is gold. I literally use that one yesterday when I was negotiating with someone and I realized I’m thinking this, she’s thinking that. And then hang on a second, there is overlap. If we just redefine this a little bit. And so that’s gold. And the third one is work together to invent options that will satisfy both parties. Kind of flows nicely from that second one. And the fourth one is insist on objective criteria. So when things start getting subjective or you’re not really focusing on criteria and tracking them to those. So those are the principles. Um, do you want to go first? Adam: Adam Yeah, yeah, I’m happy to go first. Um, the first thing was that I took was that the idea? They call it positional bargaining and they say that’s the worst way to get a deal. Um, which is kind of the standard if anyone thinks about a negotiation, it’s positional bargaining, I guess, is where the first thing that comes to mind, where person A wants this person B wants this, and then you kind of fight to meet somewhere in the middle. And of course that’s the worst way to go about it, they say, because, uh, firstly, even if you’re not super strongly tied to your position, like if it was just a rough idea of what you wanted, the more you fight for it, the more you dig in your heels and want that thing, even though you might might not have wanted it in the first place. Right? So guess the act of trying to fight for it makes you think you want it even if you didn’t want it. Yeah. Um, also, it means that by meeting in the middle, uh, both of you lose. Really? Like you both. You’re both not getting what you want. Which is why they’re saying that, you know, just fighting over positions is a worse way to do it. You need to follow those four steps to kind of step away from the positions. Yeah. To both try to get close closer to all of what you wanted. Andrea: Yeah. You know what? As you’re describing it that way, Adam, you just described that. Describe that very eloquently. I it made me think that yesterday when I was in this negotiation, I was advocating for something on behalf of my daughter and with with her school. But it this situation had escalated. Right. And I and I was talking to them and I, I actually brought it back to first principles. I was like, here’s why this is important to me and here’s what I really want. Not you have to do this right? And they’re like, No, we can’t. I’m like, Yes, you can. It was it was very like, here’s why, Here’s what we’re thinking. And then they said, Well, here’s why we don’t think we can, but actually. And then bam, Yeah, it works. Adam: And that’s perfect because you kind of did all those steps in one, almost like you were stepping away from the people versus the positions. Like you’re not just because you think this and they think this. They’re evil, you’re good, you’re fighting. Everybody’s against each other. As soon as you kind of step away from that and realize, hey, we’re not we shouldn’t be fighting over this. This is actually what I want, even though there might be some other way to achieve it, even if you don’t think we can do it exactly this way, and then you kind of sitting on the same side of the table working together rather than, you know, head to head, trying to battle to get what you want. So, yeah, I think that’s I think that’s perfect. I think the, um. The second thing, remember, is a story that kind of illustrates this, a pretty cheesy story, but it always sticks in my brain about two kids fighting over an orange, you know, and they say, no, I want the orange, No, I want the orange. So they cut it in half and take half each. Adam: And then one kid bites into the orange, he eats the fruit and throws away the skin and the other kid peels off the skin, uses it to bake a cake and throws away the fruit. So if they had to step back and said, you know, not just I want the orange, if one person says, hey, I’m using this skin to bake a cake and one says, I want to eat that orange for a tasty snack, they could have both got 100% of what they wanted, but in the end they only got 50% and the other got chucked away. So that’s always like the the cheesy little story that sticks in my head about this, this book to remember to kind of do all those things, you know, step, you know, separate people from possessions, focus on the actual interests. Like what do you actually want? Not just I want the orange, but what I want the orange because I want a snack or I want the orange because I’m baking a cake. Yeah, I think. Andrea: That’s a beautiful.Metaphor, actually. Before you enter into negotiation, ask yourself what is what is the orange and what is the orange peel? And. Right. Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then the third thing is, is I guess just, you know, we’ve been talking about negotiation and you’re probably typically think, you know, buying a house or buying a car or negotiating for a pay rise. But really, negotiation is a lot broader than that as well. It could be as as, you know, mundane as, you know, discussing with your partner, what are you going to eat for dinner or what restaurant are you going to go to? You know, what movie are you going to see? It could be talking, discussing with your kids, who’s doing what chores this week. All these things, I think, are negotiations that we can apply these principles to. Andrea: So, Adam, that was my number one. And they say this in the beginning and at the end, we’re all negotiating all the time. You don’t need to be a union leader. You’re negotiating with whatever your kids school, with your kids, with your partner, with your boss, with your friends, with your husband, you know, and negotiating is a life skill, whether you consciously think about it or not. So reading this book can help you with life. How, how, how convincing is that? That was my first point. I started really, General. My second point was. I really respected how the authors said again and again that one of the the tenets or principles of their framework is not hiding anything from the other. Right. Like you’re not you’re not deceiving or hiding anything and it it the way that they recommend. Negotiating has nothing to do with being sneaky or having a poker face. Right? Like sometimes when you think about negotiating, it’s like, well, just pretend that this is all we have or just put your poker face on. It’s not like that at all. It’s actually, in fact the complete opposite as far as they’re concerned. It’s about here are the principles that we’re going to use to negotiate and can you agree with these? And in fact, they say that if you can’t get the other parties, the other party or parties, to agree that you shouldn’t negotiate, you shouldn’t participate in the negotiation at all if it’s a formal negotiation. Right. So I thought that was. Andrea: Interesting. And. Maybe. Maybe inspiring. Guess if I’m thinking about entering into negotiation and I’m feeling really, um, you know, I’m thinking about the car salesman, right? Who’s. Who’s lying about going to ask his boss if it’s okay? Right. That’s. That would be violating this principle here. And then the third the third thing I’m surprised you didn’t bring this up was and I’m really curious to hear I’m reaching over to grab another book is comparing getting to Yes with the book that I hear so many people talking about. My clients say to me, Do you have any books to recommend, Andrea, in terms of communication skills? I mean, other than never split the difference, Everybody’s read that, right? They always say that he must have sold millions and millions and millions of books. Yeah. Um, so, well, I’m going to start this off and then I want to punt it back to you. But my read of Never Split the Difference is really more about scripts and questions to ask exactly what to say when the other one offers something. How to get to a yes, how to get to a no and and framing a no and all that stuff. Right? Versus getting to yes is more about the principles of negotiating. That was my take on the main difference. I think they compliment each other quite beautifully actually. Um, yeah, there is some redundancy of course, but it’s they’re mostly quite different from each other, but they complement each other. What do you think? Adam: Yeah, I think the getting to Yes is you can tell one’s written by Harvard professors and one’s written by a hostage negotiator that the that getting to yes is you know we’re talking about the formal four step process and here’s the here’s the things that you need to follow to do it very structured and rigid and you know negotiating before the negotiation about how you’re going to negotiate all that stuff is perfect for the classroom and for, you know, most standard negotiations, whereas they’re never split. The difference kind of takes a little bit more real world where he’s talking about his, you know, someone’s robbed a bank and they’ve got 15 hostages inside. How do you you’re not going to think, okay, let’s negotiate about how we’re going to negotiate this negotiation. You kind of it’s a it’s a lot more about the I think I think it’s also a lot more about sort of the interpersonal side of things as well. Yeah, The never never split the difference. So a lot more of the sort of real, real world tangible stuff about how you almost how you talk as well or how you talk or how you, you know, even a little bit of nonverbal communication stuff as well. Yeah. So I think think they work very well together. And then if we’re talking about supplementary reading, just to add another one to the list as well, the follow up to getting to yes is getting past no. So it obviously the first one you’re talking about getting to. Yes. The second one is okay, Well, you didn’t get to. Yes. It ended up as a no. How do you how do you keep going to get past. No. To get back to that. Yes. Um, which you mentioned you mentioned about how it started with two authors. It went to three. Getting past No is only one of the three. So I don’t know if they split up or, or what. And one went their own way and just did a did a solo book. But I think it’s a great follow up. Andrea: One of them passed away. Oh yeah, one of them’s deceased. I think it better not say. But one of the original authors is is now a professor emeritus. He’s basically a retired professor and the other one is deceased. So that’s probably why. Adam: That’s probably why there’s only one author. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, but yeah, I think that, I think sort of all three of those if you’re, if you really looking to go from a one out of ten negotiator to a 6 or 7 out of ten negotiator, I think definitely read those three books. And then if you want to get to a nine or a ten out of ten, obviously the only way is then to actually practice in the real world. But getting all those those three books inside your brain and then practicing with it, you can really improve your negotiation skills. And if we’re thinking about like return on investment, you know, three books might cost you 70 to 100 bucks, might cost you 20 to 30 hours of reading. Um, if you can then negotiate a better deal on your car, negotiate a pay rise, negotiate. You can eat more of the dinners that you want to eat because you’re negotiating with your partner every night. Maybe that improves your life a hell of a lot. Um, I think. Andrea: I love this point. Adam Oh, my goodness. Okay, I’ve got. I’ve got something to add to what if you took the seven levers that Cialdini introduces and use them in the negotiation using the scripts provided in Never split the difference and the principles provided in getting to Yes. I think the world is one. Adam: Out of ten. Yeah. Don’t even get me started. On Pre-suasion about how you how you set the context of it then. Andrea: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Oh, my goodness. And then. And then if anything does go wrong and you’re ruminating about it, then you just read chapter. Adam: Oh, perfect. Andrea: And suddenly you are the happiest and most successful self that you could be. I think that’s a. Fantastic place to stop. Adam: I think so too. Andrea: Are you ready for me to fire the five rapid fire questions at you? Adam: Oh, yeah. Okay. Andrea: We’re going to make this rapid. Number one, what are your pet peeves? Adam: Poorly structured documents. It doesn’t have to be well-written. It just needs to be clear. Andrea: Nice. Oh, I have a book for you on that. Have you read? Smart brevity. Adam: No, but it sounds right up my alley.  Andrea: Yes. They actually have formula in there for structuring everything from emails to, you know, documents. So everything. Yep. You’re going to you’re going to love it. It’s very easy. Very easy read written by the three founders of Axios. So question number two. What kind of learner are you? Adam: Visual, hence the annoyance at poor structure. Think. Think. Obviously being a being a book reader. Think. Definitely visual. Andrea: Okay. Excellent. Me too. Question number three. Introvert or extrovert? Adam: I think I’m sort of an extroverted introvert. I think I’m probably like 7030 towards introvert. Andrea: Okay. You’re an you’re an ambivert, which is most people. I ask it that way to be provocative, but most of us are in the middle. And that’s an ambivert. Okay. Adam: Yeah. Andrea: Question number four. Your. Communication preference for personal conversations. What’s the media that you like or the app or the platform that you like to use to communicate with your friends? Adam: I think, text. Text for short stuff and then call for longer stuff. I think text is good because you don’t have the phone call anxiety. Especially if it’s something short. You can reply to it on your own time. But then obviously if it’s I don’t want to also do 6 or 7 back and forth texts as well. So if it gets longer, let’s just get it done on a on a quick phone call. Andrea: Very pragmatic. Okay. The last the last question that I have for you I’m really curious about this one is what podcast do you find yourself recommending the most lately? Adam: It’s a tough. That was the hardest question. Um. Because I want to say what you will learn our own podcast, but don’t really recommend it. I think there’s some, uh, I don’t think I’ve ever recommended someone listen to it. Actually, I. Andrea: Was going to say not including my podcast in your podcast, I should have said. Adam: Exactly. I also listen to a lot of weird stuff, like, I’m obsessed with Survivor and Seinfeld, so I listen to a lot of Survivor podcasts and Seinfeld podcasts. Um, but probably, um. Probably three books by Neil Pasricha to do it. Very, very prescient, prescient for this topic as well that we did three books. He interviews people about what are their three most formative books. Andrea: Yeah, okay. That’s very appropriate. Okay. Is there anything else you want to share with listeners? Maybe it could be anything about one of the books that we just talked about or another book that you might want to recommend. So knowing that the talk about Talk listeners, I know because I talk to them all the time, they have a growth mindset and they are very ambitious about their careers. So what book in your in your library behind you and all the books that you’ve read, do you think might help them the most? Adam: I think the thing that will help the most just to go a little bit better is not any one specific book, but to commit to reading more books. Guess that you say people have already got the growth mindset, which is kind of the key to it. But I think if you’re always curious, always wanting to learn more and if you can, you know, if you’re if you’re reading a book a month, try and up that to two a month or if you’re if you’re reading three a year, try to get to five, five a year. Um, I think the the more that you read and then as you said as well like putting it into practice as well, that’s going to help you a hell of a lot. Um, I don’t there’s, I could, I could recommend hundreds of specific books. Um, but I think the, the recommendation is just to start reading things that you want to read. Yeah. Yeah. Andrea: So, so I am going to add one other question. Just because I know my readers want to know this, and I also really want to know this. Do you have any tips for devouring books more at a faster pace without compromising kind of what we’re internalizing? Do you listen to them? Do you read them all? Do you buy hard copies? What time of day do you read? Do you have rules about when you read or don’t read? Like, how can we become more productive readers? Adam: Yeah, well, I’m probably I probably also need to work this out. The last three months, I’ve read the least I’ve ever read since I started reading, I guess because I just had it. A new daughter, a three month old who’s taking up a lot more time. So all that reading time is very quickly disappeared. Yeah. Andrea: You’re going to be reading different books, Adam. You’re going to be reading these? Adam: Yeah, exactly. Andrea: Congratulations, by the way. I didn’t know that. Congratulations.  Adam: Thank you. So I need to work out. How do I. How do I read as well? I think the the main one for me was to previously used to see reading as like a specific, um, extra activity, I guess, where you’re like, okay, you know, at the end of the day, I’m in bed and I’ve got to read for 30 minutes or like something that you specifically, um, set time apart, for which for some people that’s important. Like you have to like, structure it that way. If you’re going to do it, like you have to, you know, put it, um, prioritize it in that way. But for me, it was, it was more about the incidental stuff. It was more about the you’re on the train and so you’re squeezing 15 minutes or you’re waiting in the, in the dentist’s office and so you can squeeze in eight minutes or, you know, you’ve just you’ve just finished, you know, whatever report you’re going to do and you need to have a quick break and then you can squeeze 12 minutes of reading in there. So for me, it was just kind of fitting in the the incidental stuff. And also probably if you get 30 or 40 pages into a book you don’t like, then put it aside and pick up something else that might keep you going a bit. A bit quicker. Andrea: Yeah, life is too short to finish a book that you’re not into. I agree. I agree. Unless… Adam: I used to be…As soon as I read page one, I was reading all the way to the end, so it took a long time for me to be like, okay, no, I don’t have to. I can put this one down. Yeah. Andrea: Okay. Well, Adam, I have to say, this honestly was even more fun than I thought it was going to be. I learned some. Like I said, I love your laugh and I appreciate your insights that you shared with the listeners and with me. And I just want to say thank you so much. Adam: Thank you. It was great fun. A nice new format put me on the spot, revisiting a few old books that I hadn’t read for a long time and then also inspiring me to revisit a book that I half read or maybe one eighth read. And maybe now I can go and pick it up again and finish it off. Andrea: Yeah, great. Thanks. And I hope we can do this again. Adam, thank you so much. Adam: Amazing. Thank you. Bye. The post #127 Influence, Chatter & Getting to Yes: 3 book summaries with Adam Ashton appeared first on Talk About Talk.

What is self-listening? Self-listening is self-awareness and focusing on your unique identity. In this conversation between Andrea and advertising veteran Jill Nykoliation, you’ll learn Jill’s advice on listening to yourself, overcoming imposter syndrome, pausing and asking yourself questions, and journaling! Now on YouTube! – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW_n67Yb2wztDFWxw-OAayA   RESOURCES Episode #75 “Communicate Like a Boss Part 1 with Jill Nykoliation  Episode #76: “Communicate Like a Boss Part 2 with Jill Nykoliation  Viktor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning Jerry Zaltman’s book, Metaphoria Jill’s Book Recommendations Maybe It’s You – Lauren Handel Zander Atlas of the Heart – Brené Brown Daily Jam – Sarah Gardener Jill’s Podcast Recommendations Rich Roll Feel Better Live More A Life of Greatness Connect with Andrea & Talk About Talk Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Youtube: @talkabouttalkyoutube Weekly Communication Skills Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup   TRANSCRIPT Andrea: Thank you so much, Jill, for joining us here today on the Talk about Talk podcast to talk about self listening. Jill: Oh, it’s a pleasure to be back. Thanks for having me. Andrea: So as I already shared with the listeners, you and I were having a conversation about communicating like a boss about communication superpowers. And we talked about how confidence and storytelling and all sorts of other things, personal branding are really critical to effective communication. And we agree that probably listening is if we had to choose the most important and you had this incredible insight that not only should we be listening to others, but we really need to listen to ourselves. What do you mean by that? Jill: What I mean by that is. If you really want to step into who you are and you really want to be your authentic self. You need to know who you are. Like one thing people say a lot is they want to be authentic. Like, okay, authentically. What? But you need to know, most people go, Oh, because yes, you can be authentic. Do you know who you are? Andrea: Right. Well, that’s personal branding. Jill: That’s personal branding. And it’s and its inner knowing and not who you think you need to be for that moment. But do you know who you are and therefore which lenses of yourself you bring to different situations because you might bring your whole self, you might bring, I’m going to bring the business side of me here. I’m going to bring. It might be different to how you parent, but most people have not done. And this is like a journey I’ve been on too. Is is who are you? So you can show up as your authentic self. So that’s what I mean by that. And and to know who you are, you have to go inward and go, Who am I and who am I now? Not who was I before, but who am I now? Because we we change and we evolve. And and that’s you know, you talk about a growth mindset. The growth mindset is always like, who am I now? Because we’re not fixed. Andrea: We definitely are not fixed until this conversation is already going in directions that I did not foresee. Wow. My brain is, as always, exploding. So. So I’m hearing from you that a critical part of listening to yourself is, first of all, taking the time to and the discipline, I suppose, right. To thinking critically about who you are, what your identity is, what your strengths are, what you stand for, understanding as you said, that it will change over time and it will change to some extent depending on the context. I take that back. It’s not that who you are changes, but it’s how you present yourself. What parts of yourself that you present will change depending on the context. Jill: And I think parts of you might change too. Like, I know I am not the same person I was ten years ago for sure. Not 20 years ago, but not five years ago either. I am different than even before the pandemic. Like I know, and I like that I’ve softened. And I and I’m aware of that. And I think because I really like you, I love growth. I like personal growth. And I and, and what that means in order to grow, I do think you need to soften. I think when you have armor on and you’re tough, I think it’s harder to grow. I think growth happens when you soften and you look and think, you know, you said it takes curiosity. It also takes courage. It takes a lot of courage to look at yourself because you may not there might be stuff in there you’re not ready to see or face. So that’s part of the softening that has to happen, too, is going inside. Andrea: The softening sounds a lot like. Like vulnerability. Jill: Yeah. Yes. And acceptance. And compassion. Um, and sometimes a kick in the pants and all the things. Andrea: So all these things that you’re mentioning are things that also you and I spoke about in terms of communicating with others, right? So, yes, so being vulnerable with others and giving people a kick in the pants when they need it. Or you talked about, for example, giving space to people to encourage them to talk. And now it kind of what I’m hearing is giving space to yourself to think about yourself or to be quiet and softer with yourself. So yeah, so before we deep dive into self listening, what do you think? I guess in a very general level, some of the similarities and differences are between listening to yourself versus listening to others. Jill: Uh, such a good question. I think it’s very similar. It’s just. Why do we go external? You know, think we. It’s easier and it is often easier to go. You know, a friend will tell you something or a colleague, you know what’s happening and you can see it. But it’s like, you know, when you’re in it, it’s hard to look inward. You literally can’t see it all. You can feel it most often and you can hear a voice. But we usually tune that out of thinking this. We tune it out when it’s constructive, when it’s negative. Boy, do we listen. Um, you know, you’re not good enough. Don’t think you’re prepared. Like you really listen to that. But you don’t listen to go. Are you in the right place? Is this really what you’re meant to do? Could you have maybe been a bit kinder? We don’t hear that voice, but we hear the critical voice. So it’s also something interesting, which I think is true in communication. Like when people give you a performance review, you the one negative thing you hear and I was reading there was a study that says we remember it in great detail, right? We remember negative. We we remember criticism in great detail, but praise be kind of. Yeah, we they said something like, I was good at this and think the same is true isn’t it The 5 to 1 rule you need to say five good things to one negative because that’s how people hear them. So it’s the same with yourself. Andrea: In in relationships. There’s there’s this research about they can predict whether a marriage relationship will last based on the proportion of positive, not even neutral, but positive. Yes. Comments that the Gottman. Gottman Yes. Gottman So. I think we can apply this to self-talk. Jill: 100% can write. 100% can. Yeah. Yeah. Are you being. Yeah. Not just neutral, but positive towards yourself? What’s your self-talk like? We’re going to talk about self listening, but part of listening is are you how are you talking to yourself? Are you giving those positive things to your. Andrea: So So I think it might be interesting for us to explore this idea of like categorizing what it is that we’re listening to. Okay. So you said that there are these I’m paraphrasing, there are these sort of immediate and negative things, right? So Judith Humphrey, one of my previous guests, talked about the crow on your shoulder, maybe talking imposter syndrome, like you don’t belong here, you’re not credible. You don’t have the status. They’re going to realize you’re an imposter. So there’s the crow, which could also be, you know, the negative feedback that you get. Perhaps the one negative thing or the thing that the development area that your manager shared with you, as opposed to all of the glowing things, it’s the one thing that you hear. So there’s the kind of immediate negative thing. And then you also talked about the bigger picture, longer term, more higher level mindset, things like are you in the right place? Are you doing what you need to do so that can be positive or negative? I think. Jill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Andrea: Okay, so let’s build this out. What else is in this model? Jill: So I think in the negative side, I think what, what stops us from looking inward is that negative side is so big. And we talked about 5 to 1. It feels at least right, maybe bigger. But you think about with feelings of inadequacy, I’m not enough insecurity like lacking of confidence and I think also scarcity mindset. Oh my God, there’s not enough to go around. I have to get my fair share. I’ve got to get this promotion right now. So I think inadequacy, insecurity and scarcity are very loud voices in our minds, in our in our heads that that get us tripping over ourselves or going down the wrong path or not showing up as our best self because we’re so distracted by these, by the self-talk that you go, like, who put this narrative of, you know, I think we talked about this last time, the not enoughness is such a universal like, am I even good enough for this job or am I good enough for this? Or am I am I enough? But then the lack of confidence like think I am, but don’t know, like how many people walk into a boardroom and don’t take the center seat, right? Most people don’t. They say, I’m gonna sit there. I’m going to. Yeah, right. Take that seat. And yeah, like shows up in many forms and then think scarcity mindset is also a big one. Once you I’ve been looking for it and was thinking about it as I was coaching somebody and I was like. And you’re seeing it everywhere. Oh, yeah. Like, do you believe the world is abundant or do you believe things are scarce? Right. I very much have an abundant mindset. I think there’s enough to go around of everything. Andrea: I have to tell you, as you’re talking about the abundance and scarcity mindset, Jill, the thing that is really top of mind for me these days is. In some ways I am very much about abundance and growing the pie. And some of my indirect competitors I’ve reached out to and asked them about collaborating. And honestly, they’re shocked at first. And then they and then they say, Andrea, you clearly you have an abundance mindset. And I’m like, I kind of don’t understand how you could feel otherwise. But but that’s I mean, so there’s, there’s that whole kind of collaborating with potential and, you know, to generalize that it could be walking into the boardroom and, and being, you know, counting the minutes even implicitly, if not directly of air time that certain people are taking. Right? So that’s really kind of a scarcity mindset. Jill: Exactly. Or not being happy for someone else’s promotion or and because we’re always listening and that’s why I go back to feelings is how do you feel and, and like what’s coming up for you and, and you go like, oh, is it resentment? Is it jealousy? You go, okay, so, so often we, we things come through us. And that’s another way of saying, what are you listening to? You’re listening to your own body language. Like, are you happy for others happiness, right? Or are you jealous of it? You know, or even worse, schadenfreude where you’re you take pleasure in other people’s misfortune like. Yeah, like yuck. But but it’s out there. But, you know, I just had an experience. I went surfing as a taking this class. We went surfing at seven in the morning and and it struck me most people didn’t get up. I got up like five out of seven times. My first time I was so I was like, oh, my God, I’m surfing at 52. I’m learning how to do this. And my classmates were like, Jill, you’re up. Oh, my gosh. And then afterwards, like, you were wrong. And I was thinking and I actually said to them. All of you are so happy for my happiness. And I am. I am aware because I’ve learned to create some distance. Observe. I’m observing how an or am and how generous all of you are. In taking pleasure in my happiness because most of them didn’t get up. And so for me in that moment, because it felt so like, this is so rare. I realized Freud is called Freud. Freud and Freud is so rare. So and I remember thinking, Oh yeah, that’s very common. Most people aren’t that happy for other people’s happiness. I wonder why that is. Andrea: Did you ask yourself whether you would have had the same response? Genuinely? Jill: Yeah. I actually am really happy for other people’s happiness because I think that’s how you get an abundant mindset is you go, I can be happy for you because it didn’t come from my bucket. Andrea: Right, Exactly. Exactly. Jill: So why not be happy? And then by putting out there the sense that no, like this is I’m going to get my share, too. Like, just because you are winning doesn’t mean I’m losing by that mindset. It creates a self-belief that, yeah, so because I am going to win too. If I was worried that that was the only one, then I then that would be sad. But, but no, I actually do practice that because I do believe I do believe that. And again, we’ll get to this later. But the vibration that we put out. If I’m happy for you because I think there’s enough to go around, then I’m attracting. There’s enough to go around. Andrea: Exactly. Oh, 1,000% agree with that, Jill and I. So I do want to go back to sort of categorizing. Yeah, sorry. But I want to, I guess, put a bow on this idea of scarcity mindset. And you very eloquently talked about like winning and losing. And it’s not that if you win, I lose or vice versa, right? I think there’s real power. And I know you agree with this that when we are sensitive to our scarcity or abundance mindset, there’s real power in that. And and, and the energy that you put into celebrating others, even if you are selfish. Yeah. Like you’ll see that it does come back to you. Right. And the other thing I want to say is that if you really do, maybe we can take this idea of a scarcity mindset and put it back on ourselves. And it’s not a scarcity in the context of versus others, but it is versus time. And this is this is getting a little bit philosophical, right? But the time that we have on the planet, each of us as individuals is every day it’s diminishing. Right? So so if you if you feel like there’s anything to be concerned about in terms of scarcity, it’s your own time. So so turn your attention away from competing in the win lose scenario versus others and and shift your attention more to like, how can I best myself? And then that brings us to what I was talking about before your your comment about the higher level things like, am I doing the right thing? Am I being kind? Am I all this other stuff? So so we have this immediate, immediate negativity perhaps that we’re focused on. We have the higher level mindset, the whole identity, how I show up in the world. What else are we listening to, do you think? Jill: Think we’re listening to others? Think we’re listening to others? Take on who we are. We should be doing this. You should be doing that, you know, And then it shapes like, Am I a good enough mom? Am I the best boss? Am I. Am I doing what’s right, you know, for the organization? But but that’s where I went back to the beginning of who are you? Because it’s really easy to get swung around by by listening to other people’s things if you don’t know who you are. So, for example. Brené Brown has a really great exercise. She does before every workshop. She has this list of values. You may have seen it and did it with a with a with my personal board of directors. We said we should all do this. And it was fascinating. So you can only pick two. She was first, you’re going to pick ten and then you’re going to whittle it to two. What are the two values that drive you? And so we picked ours. And what I realized is this Each of us like, Oh my God, your values are completely different than mine. So my girlfriend had just adventure. I’m like, Oh my gosh, you do always choose the adventurous route. I hadn’t thought of it. Jill: That’s not mine, you know? That’s not mine. Mine. So once you know, you’re so for anyone listening, you want to know mine is learning was like learning slash growth. I love to learn. So I will walk in. I’m going to do it. I won’t be great at it, but I’m going to learn something. I love it. My second one was more new for me. It’s wholeheartedness. I and I got that through the pandemic. I don’t want to come up, come in as a version or a piece of myself. I want to be my whole self now and my hearted self to my. We talked last time about leading from the feminine, so that’s a big one for me that I’m stepping into, but that isn’t anyone else’s. So then, because I know that when someone gets me know what you should do, Jill or you know what? No, Jill. Like I was expected more from you. I’m like, Oh, that’s not how I’m wired. That’s not my authentic self going back to. So then I can actually be more selective on what I’m hearing and then I can go, Well, that’s interesting advice. I know it’s not actually for me because people even well-intentioned, give you advice through their lens and their values. Andrea: I was going to say, when they say I was expecting this from you in your head, at least, if not explicitly and directly, you would say, Well, that’s you imposing your identity on me or your values or whatever it is, right? Correct. Jill: So yeah, I agree. So I think that’s really important and that’s a great tool. And she said, you know, she has a podcast on it, but she she talked about she does she starts all her workshops because that way know how know what your compass is. Yeah. Before you start listening to others with. Andrea: My clients, whether it’s workshops or one on one coaching, we go through an exercise that’s very similar. It’s on it’s archetypes. So I present 12 different archetypes. And so you’re learning archetype, I would say, is the sage. It’s it’s devouring information and also sharing information. I think that’s obviously a strength and and passion of yours. Right. And then the other one, what was the term that you used for it? It was. Jill: Values. Oh, no. Wholeheartedness. Andrea: Wholeheartedness. So so the the archetype that connects with that is the lover archetype. But I call it because I’m coaching professionals, right? Nobody would self-identify as the lover until I changed the term to impassioned and literally yesterday, like that. Yeah, I was coaching a gentleman and he’s like, Oh, and we read the description together. It’s like you’re all in on life, on your friends, you’re inclusive, you’re devoted, you’re And it’s all in this idea of being, all in, all in. I love that on things. And so, so I’m what are yours diagnosing you Jill AS Yeah like it impassioned sage. Jill: I love it and I would agree I would agree what are yours. Andrea: I am magician and sage. So for those of you, for those of you that are watching on on the video, here’s my bookshelf behind me. And I have many more books elsewhere in my house. Right? So I’ve always got my books and I can’t wait to read just just like you, Jill. Like it’s my one of my favorite things to do. But but my my other archetype that I really resonate with is the magician. So. So taking my clients on a spiritual journey and and helping impact their life in a positive way is like my happiest thing in the world. Really? Yeah. Jill: Yeah. That’s excellent. And again, going back to like, and once you know that about yourself, then your, then what you listen to or even yourself that you listen to. You can narrow the field, you can edit. Like a big part of growing is editing. Yeah, we can accumulate knowledge, but you got to edit it. Which which knowledge is for me, Which advice is for me? Yeah, I would say. Andrea: I would say you’re interpreting, right? So you have noise all around you and you to, you know, avoid it or argue with it, right. Or internalize it or you can learn from it or whatever. So yeah, I think really understanding your personal identity. And values is otherwise. Jill: You’re going to get swung around. Like there’s just too much wisdom out there or or advice, well intentioned advice. Like one of the things. Viktor Frankl I don’t know if he said it, he’s attributed to him. I remember in second year, third year business school, I could take any elective. I took all the psychology courses and there was a health course I took. And we read Viktor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning and Loved It. And there’s a quote that some attribute to him, let’s just say it’s his, but it doesn’t matter what love it is. And this is what I practice between stimulus and response. There is a space. Yes. In that space is our power to choose our response. And in our response lies our growth and our freedom. I love that because so often if you think about when listening, it’s like before you react, Pause. What? How am I feeling about that? What’s coming up for me? Like all all the things so often we go through life when we’re moving so fast. Got a million things to do. We were coming from insecurity and scarcity, and we’re not creating a pause going, Why am I racing so hard? Yeah, why is why am I snapping at that person? Yeah. Why am I feeling so insecure when I know or having imposter syndrome to use your thing? Why do I have imposter syndrome? I know I’m good at what I do, right? And that pause gives you a moment to go. Where is this coming from? Is it true? Is this my. Is this something else someone put in my head? Did I put this in my head? I love that quote because so much can happen in that pause. If we take it. Andrea: So in the way you just sort of role played that moment, I heard question after question after question. And I was thinking, when I’m coaching executives on listening, it’s not just it’s not just not talking. It’s encouraging other people to talk and then interpreting what they’re saying verbally and through their body language. Okay. Yeah. So, so but a powerful tool in making that happen is asking questions and asking the most effective questions. And then I heard you in this context of self listening, talking about asking yourself questions. So yeah, when we pause, we create an opportunity for ourselves to ask ourselves important questions so that we can. Respond in in a more thoughtful way. Right. That’s aligned with our values. That’s aligned with our identity. Jill: And we can also learn like by in the pause. I’m trying to think I can give some examples, but was like, Yeah, anyway, but you go in the pause, you go, This is interesting. I’m getting my back up. Yeah. You know, this is interesting. I’m already tuning this person out. Or isn’t this interesting? This, like, I’m feeling agitated and this can’t possibly be the reason. I wonder where the beginning is. But is this reminding me of. Yeah, because and I know it’s not this, um. Like, what is this moment teaching me? Right, Right. And so that’s where the, put the growth mindset on the pause. If you just look if you ask yourself a compassionate inquiry, get really compassionate yourself going, my goodness, I am not at my best in this moment. Andrea: Right. I love that. I can imagine. I can imagine Jill’s thought bubble like, whoa, you can do better, honey. Right? I can. Jill: Do better. And I say that to an interesting my partner. I’m like, okay, that’s not it’s not coming out as I want. So I’m acknowledging that this is attached to something else. I wonder what it is. Say that even to my daughter too. We talk that way. It’s like, that’s awesome. Andrea: That is awesome. That is awesome. So so this, you know, people when they when they talk about and think about communication, it’s about with other people and usually it is about talking. And here we are saying it’s actually about listening and it’s as much about listening to yourself. And I did a recent episode on Self-awareness, which is very closely linked to what we’re talking about, Right? Yes. Listen, I keep thinking about the three types of you know, you could think of it as two types of of self-awareness. There’s the there’s the being conscious of your consciousness. So internal self awareness. And then there’s external. So what impact are you having on others and what’s the dynamic? But I, I really prefer the, perhaps not surprisingly, the model that has three types of self-awareness. There’s, there’s your being conscious of your consciousness, there’s bodily self-awareness. So you just said the I was thinking about this when you said you got your back up. It’s like you physically and yeah, metaphorically got your back up, right? So there’s bodily self-awareness and there’s and there’s kind of the, the social self awareness. So being aware of of the impact and the social dynamic. Yeah. Um. Mike This is a big question, Jill, but can you elaborate on what you think the benefits are of. Of. Thinking about these types of self awareness and really listening to yourself. So, so if you are a good listener to yourself, what are the benefits of it? Which I guess we’ve kind of implied throughout this conversation? Yeah. And then specifically, what if you don’t do it? Jill: Very interesting. Yeah. I’m going to go with the dude first. Okay? Yeah. So the do I would say, like, when I take time to listen to myself, which I don’t always do, but I really try to practice when I do, there’s a peace that comes over me. There’s a contentment that comes. There’s a compassion for myself going, Oh, that’s what that was. When something comes up, when I when something, I listen and I go, Yeah. I’m triggered or I’m going too fast. Why am I going so fast? What is the rush? You know, and. And or why am I snapping at that person? Why is this topic feel uncomfortable for me? Why can’t I sit in this topic? Why can’t I be here? I wonder what that’s about. And when I go. When I get still and I go inside, I go, Oh, it’s that it reminds me of that. And then to me, that gives me I thought I had dealt with that. I haven’t. Maybe. And so there you go. Okay, well, then the gift in that is I get. I’m aware. I need to go maybe put that to bed or address that with that person if it’s outstanding or I have to go, Where’s my insecurity coming from? Like it gives me if I can get still with it and I look at it. So and then if I can address it, it almost always gives me a sense of peace and okay, okay. Because what happens is in that moment, I grew. In that moment of understanding, like we just just just disassociating yourself for a second to say like almost become an observer of yourself. An observer of your thought. Yeah. Andrea: In in psychology, they call it the looking glass self, Right? Jill: Okay. Okay. So. Yeah, like that. So just go If you disassociate, if you just disconnect a little bit then. Then you can listen to yourself and you’re like. Yo, it’s not. You are like, what are you doing? And, and and then I go, Oh, just the mere fact I can pause and look at myself means I’m growing. And and anyone who’s listening to your podcast must be into growth because this is the whole topic, right? Andrea: Like you’re definitely a self-selection here. Jill. Yeah, constantly shocked at the incredible growth mindsets that people have. And then I’m like, Yeah, but, but, but they do. Of course they do. Because of course they do. Jill: Because. Because you’re all about getting, I mean so many of your pockets, like, oh, that is, that’s going to help me be better at introducing myself. It’s going to be better at whatever all the things. So, so that’s where I go. Just the mere fact of me going, huh? I wonder what that’s about. Means I’m growing because I noticed it. And then the second stage of growth is then let’s go take a little bit of a look at it. And sometimes you can look at it fully and sometimes you need some tools and sometimes it’s a little too ouchie and sometimes, yeah, you’re going to need some practice, you know, like, I’m going to repeat this, this, this, this thing I do a little bit till I get better at it. Um, like my daughter, for example, she’s like, you’re always, you’re always trying to fix it. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, I am always trying to fix it with her because I’m in a hurry and why am I in such a hurry? Like she’s 19? Andrea: Well, it’s this abundance thing that I was just saying, like, I want to get it done. Yeah, yeah. Jill: And so part of me is like. So one of the things I practice with her because she said, Mom, you’re doing it again. I’m like, okay. So with her, I really practice trying to listen, but then I’m listening to myself going, You’re trying to answer. You’re trying to give her advice. She didn’t ask for advice. Jill Why are you giving her advice? Why do you not trust her? Do you think you’re all knowing? Is it like you? You got somewhere else to be? That’s more important than listening to your daughter Like, so that’s the that’s the talk I’m doing in my head. Um, as I’m trying to listen to her, I’m also listening to myself go, like, what? What are you why, why are, for example, why are you in such a rush? Andrea: So, so what I’m hearing is the benefit of listening to yourself in a nutshell, simply put, is that you perhaps are accelerating your path to self-improvement and you’re and you’re giving yourself a much higher probability of showing up as your best self in the future. Jill: Yes, by listening, you really get to know yourself. And when you know who you are, you can walk into a room. You are far more confident, don’t you? Like if don’t know who I am, I’m showing up and I’m like, you know, then you get imposter syndrome. Why? Because you’re actually not being you. But if you go, I know who I am for good and for bad. I know the things I’m working on. I know the things I’m good at and I’m here and I’m holding space and I’m doing. Confidence comes when you know yourself. Andrea: Oh, you will be quoted on that, my friend. Okay, so what happens when you don’t? Jill: When you don’t? I think you just I think you run yourself into a tizzy. I think when you’re just when you don’t know yourself and you’re trying on all these different hats, I think you I think you get flustered. I think you get exhausted. You’re carrying around a bag of hats, like literally, I think like if you think about energy is finite, right? If you are running around trying to be all things to all people or you’re trying different. Right. It’s exhausting. But, you know. No, I know who I am. I’ve got my two hats, my learning hat and my whole hearted hat. And those are who I that’s how I bring myself to meetings. Yeah. And and I. Because I know how to listen to myself. I’m better at to listen to you. The whole thing calms down. I find the whole thing. Comes down like I one thing I try and do is I was. Where is inflammation in the system and can we flame things when we’re not listening? We’re listening to answer or even for ourselves or we’re judging ourselves. That’s another thing. I think we don’t listen to ourselves because sometimes it’s judgy, you know? But can we be non binary? Can we can we just say it’s not good or bad? It just is, right? Andrea: Yes. Yeah. Jill: Exactly. Exactly. So is there a way to take judgment off of our ourselves and listen with compassion? Yeah. Is another way. Andrea: So I want to I want to leave the listeners with a list of of ways that maybe you and I can brainstorm about how how people can start listening to themselves better. And I’m going to tee off this list here with asking yourself questions either quietly in your mind, either in the moment or maybe later. And then and then the other one that comes to mind just it’s sort of an obvious one, I think, is journaling. Yeah. So do you think you told me that you do journal? Jill: I do journal. I do journal. I free journal. So when I journal I don’t think. I purposely just let it come out. What’s really going on? What the hell is that? Why am I like this sometimes, right? That. What the hell was that? Andrea: So, Jill, when you listen to this later, you’re going to realize you ask yourself questions all the time. Jill: This is do I do. I actually hadn’t even thought of it, but I do. I ask, like, what’s coming up for me? Like, what is it that I feel? Yeah. And when did I first know this? Because my my coach says to me like, oh, this thing is happening because. And when did you first know this? Jill? Like, oh, three months ago. Because, yeah. You’re not listening to yourself. You already knew, right? It’s a good question. When did you first know? Um, you know, what part of this do I own? One thing I love when I listen to myself is what is this teaching me? Because one thing I write in my journal a lot or I say a lot to myself, a little mantra I have to myself is. Thank you. Andrea: That’s not a question. Jill: No, it’s not. But the question that precedes Thank you is what is this teaching me? Right. Right. What is the gift in this moment? I just maybe got smacked down hard on something or I really made a blunder. What is this teaching me? What part of it do I own? What’s the gift in this that I can take forward? It came wrapped in a really crappy package, but it’s a gift. And then I wrap it up. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for that. And that’s how I kind of seal it into a growth opportunity, is to say it that way. So I guess journaling, finding time to get quiet. One of the things I love podcasts. I love yours, I love podcasts, I love books. I’m always. But when I’m in the car, unless it’s a long ride. Yeah, I’m quiet. It’s quiet. Quiet. I need it. Need. And that’s you know, BJ Fogg talks about attaching things to me. Listen to him. Um, to to habits. It just becomes when I drive. That’s my my quiet time. I’m just thinking. I’m just letting the back of my brain process. Because in the stillness is where we can sort out our thoughts like. When you’re always taking in stimulus, when are you going to listen to which of these things are right for me? Right. What really happened? Self-reflection happens in the quiet. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Our brain is non-consciously processing solutions. Questions. Yeah. Interpreting. You know, the shoulda woulda, coulda, but also on the positive side, right? Kind of. Yeah. I remember. I remember sitting on the couch of Professor Jerry Zaltman, one of my favorite professors on the planet at Harvard Business School, and he would ask me questions and I’d be like, I think I need to think about it. And he said, You know what? Don’t consciously think about it. Your brain has the question and now go off and we’ll meet tomorrow. And yeah, so he’s he’s all about like don’t don’t even worry about conscious so but I think that that sort of informs another another methodology that we have for being a better listener to ourselves. We can sit and journal and whether it’s free writing, like you said, or whether you’re asking yourself questions in a disciplined way and then forcing yourself to answer them. Yeah. And then there’s doing that in your in your conscious and non-conscious brain, right? Yes. Jill: You’re conscious and you’re not. Yes. Because sometimes oftentimes when I’m doing something else is think. Dr. Altman said to you is he’s I agree. He’s so smart. Love his book about deep metaphors. So good. Um, you and I have similar bookshelves when you when you go and do something else. And usually for me, it’s calmness. I’m walking in the woods, I’m taking a bath. The answers come. Yeah. When I’m staring at the question, they don’t always come. But when I’m reflecting or reflecting when I’m doing something, when I’m calming my brain, often the answers come and the answers about yourself come. And we talked about knowing your values. I think that’s a really good example of, of just like. How to. Take in the stimulus and add and edit and decipher. We talked about talked last time about keep a second notebook, like there’s a journal. But then I also carry a second notebook with me everywhere. And so these reflections that come up, I catch them, which is a way of like I listen to myself and, you know, I was in flow today. What was I doing that I lost track of time? What were they doing? And so I’m like, Oh, yeah, I complete. And so you can see patterns that way. So I think that’s really good. Um. Talked about being slow. I think the idea of of. Moving energy out helps too, because we live such stressful lives. Jill: And so one of the things I started doing was a book by it’s called Burnout. It was by two sisters. One’s a doctor. I can’t remember. It’ll come to me. But it’s called burnout. And they talked about stress can last a length of period. But if you think about like and that can block us and stress can shut us down and we contract, right? We contract. But if you want to be expansive, you’ve got to get that stuff out of you. And so getting an understanding, what are you feeling? And then moving it out. And what they talk about is move it out every single day, even though the stressor might be multiple days long. Move it out. So they go. You can walk like literally move it out, walk it out, dance it out, create it out, cry it out. So that’s why I talk to my daughter about is make sure there’s like seven of them in the book. Let’s do two each day to make sure so we don’t have blockages for listening to ourselves, you know? So this idea, again, when we get blocked with stress or this busyness or this treadmill, do something that that takes it away for a bit because then you can’t really hear yourself if you got all this stuff shouting at you. Yeah, I love that. Andrea: Makes sense. Yes. It’s it’s almost like it’s like a. Perhaps physical, but its tangible catalyst to. Yes, get this, get rid of the stress. Right? Jill: Yeah. And make sure I’m conscious about it because I have like a room, like I go dance it out sometimes. I’m like, I’ve got to go put some of this stuff away. Olivia and her boyfriend, I’m like, I’m going to go dance for half an hour. They’re like, okay. Andrea: Just close the door, mom. Jill: Exactly. And I’m like, I’m just dancing it out. Or when I’m walking my dog, I go, No, I’m consciously letting go of some things to make room for myself to hear. Yeah. Andrea: Because you’re being very mindful. You’re being. Yeah. You’re spending your time? Jill: Yep. Yep. So I think that that’s a big one. I think finding, finding stillness, like just the, again, the idea of, of can you, can you sit with yourself? Yeah, many of us can’t. Because if you can’t sit with yourself, then something uncomfortable comes. How can you sit with that? Andrea: Yeah that’s true. That’s I think if. Right. Put another way, I think when we’re avoiding sitting quietly with ourselves, what we’re doing is we’re avoiding something. We are consciously or unconsciously avoiding something that. Jill: We’re avoiding something. Laziness is avoidance. Yeah. You know, we get curious with ourselves. Oh, like doctor, is it not? Doctor The Maestro. Ben Zander, Boston Harmonic Orchestra. Will I say that right. And the kids, when he also teaches the kids orchestra and he says, Yeah. Yes. Boston. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. And he says when he’s teaching people he goes like instead of because he talks about this, talks about this, when we get hard on ourselves, we contract like we make people kids will make a mistake and shrink versus he says to say things like how fascinating. Andrea: Yeah, I read that. He said, Oh, it’s so great. Jill: So I talked to my staff about that. How fascinating. We screwed that up. How fascinating. We’re better than that. But yet we did it wrong. Andrea: That reminds me of Sarah Blakely, the Spanx billionaire. Right. And she talks about her father. She thanks her father. All I’ve seen her on video and heard her and read her. And she talks about thanking her father for framing mistakes or failures as learning and celebrating them. Jill: Yes. Yes. And and so he says this and I, I, I try and use whatever phrase you want, but but instead of going back to insecurity, I’m an idiot. It’s like, how fascinating. I don’t know how to do this. Yeah, how fascinating. I thought I knew how to do this. And I don’t. Andrea: Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, Jill, I think we’ve created a list here of many. I think I’m feeling inspired. Ways of. Really making it easier for ourselves to listen to what’s going on in our head to to. In a disciplined way, thinking about our identity and our values and then pausing right and yeah, thinking about our reaction to things and even our interpretation of things. So the kind of self-talk and noticing things, yeah, physically and of course mentally in terms of our responses, is there anything else you want to say before I ask you my two new rapid fire questions? Well. Jill: You’re making me think of a quote that I like love quotes about the importance of listening and self listening. And I think self listening is a big part of self-acceptance, and self acceptance is part of self growth. And there’s a great quote that I love. It’s by David Augsburger think is how you pronounce his name. It’s a senior professor of pastoral care at the School of Theology. And the way he says this is being heard is so close to being loved that for the average person, they’re almost indistinguishable. And so if you think about learning to listen to yourself and hearing your inner thoughts, I’m scared. I’m proud, but I don’t want to brag like, you can go either way, right? Hearing yourself is practicing self love, right? Andrea: I was going to say, hearing yourself is loving yourself. Jill: Exactly. And loving yourself is is an incredibly important part of growth. If you don’t love yourself, if you aren’t fascinated with yourself, if you aren’t forgiving of yourself, how do you grow? You can’t. And then as a mom, as a dad, as a leader, how do you show up if you aren’t self accepting and self fascinated? How are you going to. Model that for the people who are you have the grace of being in your in your in your sphere. So I like that you made me think of that quote, which I love. Andrea: Oh, wow.  Jill, I’m feeling so optimistic. Jill: Yeah, so am I.  Always love talking with you. Andrea: About. About. About life. You know, not just communicating as an executive, but about life. So. Okay. Let me quickly ask you. Okay. Two new rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Okay, I’m ready. Okay. Question number one, I know you’re going to nail this one. It’s going to be tough to keep you to three, but can you recommend three books to talk about talk listeners? Jill: Yep, I can. Okay. So I would say give me a second because I’m going to I’m going to actually happen here because you have a bookshelf. I have a bookshelf. Can’t see it. This one. Maybe it’s you. It’s such a great title. That’s hilarious. It’s not everybody else. Maybe you should look inward. It’s by Lauren Zander. She’s a coach and she’s like that New York kind of talk coach coach. So it’s really it’s a fun read, but it’s really blunt. Like maybe it’s you, maybe you to look in the mirror. Maybe you got to ask yourself some questions. Andrea: Love that. Maybe it’s not everyone else. Okay. I haven’t read that. I definitely will. Jill: It’s good. Next one, I’d say this one. I love Brene Brown. All of her work is good. But this one, Atlas of the Heart. What are you thinking? And she delineates them, right? Like, yeah. Damon And yeah, you know, all the things. Yeah,  Andrea: I’ve read. I’ve read that one. It’s a good one. Yeah. Jill: Yeah. Because compassion and pity are not the same thing, right? Like, so, you know, are you having compassion for yourself? Are you pitying yourself? Very different. Anyway, third one, this is a new one for me. I’m just a month in daily jam. Oh yeah. It’s just like a you can see, but it’s just like a little once a day, little passage of perspective. So I gave this to my daughter and we read them together. Sometimes she’s like, Mom, go. What does it say today? Because. I’m going to chew on that, mom. And so this is a self reflection. Um, a good friend. Just good friend I just met gave me this. And it’s. It’s brilliant. It’s a good way to start little doses. I’m going to. Andrea: Go buy two copies, and my daughter and I are going to do the same thing. Yeah. Jill: You’re welcome. Andrea: Okay. And I’m going to put links to those books, plus the other books that we talked about. We talked about many, many books in the in our conversation. So I’m going to put links to all those books in the show notes. Question number two, the final question I’m going to ask you is three podcasts not talk about talk, three podcasts, other other. Jill: Than yours, other than yours, which I highly recommend. Okay.  Andrea: You would recommend to the executives that are listening and we all know this, they have a growth mindset. What are the top three that you think. Jill: The top three I have for my growth mindset right now and.  My rotation, my go to’s are one rich roll this growth mindset, you know, rich roll amazing guests. Dr. Chatterjee’s feel better live more amazing guests, he reflects right there on the spot. He teaches you self-inquiry right there. Sarah Greenberg. A life of greatness is my absolute favorite. Okay. Yep. She asks incredible questions. Andrea: Okay. I’m going to put all three of those in the show notes. Any last comments before we finish this amazing experience? I have to say. Jill: Um, well.  Thank you. This has been wonderful. You always our conversations, I always learn and you teach me and you get me to self-reflect. And so this is wonderful and I’m grateful. Thank you. I think the thing I’m coming up for me is the importance to grow. We need to soften. And don’t think we’re taught that. I think we’re taught to to when we get hard and we we drive, I think we need to soften, maybe, to use that metaphor, driving, take our hands off the wheel a little bit, just, you know, take some pauses and just soften. Growth happens in the softness, starting with yourself. Andrea: And we are going to finish it there. Thank you so much, Jill, for sharing your time and your incredible insights. Thank you. Jill: You’re very welcome. My pleasure. The post #126 The Power of Self-Listening with Jill Nykoliation appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Andrea shares the 3 most common personal branding mistakes and misconceptions she sees with her clients: communicating first, scripting, and copying others. Learn why these are mistakes, and what you should do instead to build a strong and effective personal brand.   RESOURCES Other Talk About Talk episodes on Personal Branding: #98 The Power Of Personal Branding #106 “Q&A on Personal Branding” #109 Five Impactful Ways to Reinforce Your Personal Brand Talk About Talk Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Weekly Communication Skills Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup   For a transcript of this episode, please email info@talkabouttalk.com.  The post #125 Personal Branding Mistakes appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Forget the rehearsed elevator pitch! Discover a fresh approach that prioritizes personalization, enthusiasm, and authentic engagement. This insightful discussion emphasizes the importance of being prepared for spontaneous conversations with key stakeholders. Learn how to create connections that feel genuine rather than scripted. Enhance your communication skills with simple yet impactful strategies!

There are many reasons to adopt a growth mindset.  Andrea explains why adopting a growth mindset is the #1 most impactful yet underleveraged skill, how thinking about prototyping can help you adopt a growth mindset, plus her three ideas for how you can adopt a growth mindset right now!   RESOURCES Grit by Angela Duckworth Talk About Talk Episode #100: Andrea’s Top 3 Communication Insights Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Weekly Communication Skills Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com   TRANSCRIPT Greetings and welcome to Talk About Talk episode number 123. I’m your executive communication coach, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki (please call me Andrea!). And I‘m so glad you’re here!  Are you an ambitious executive with a growth mindset? Well, then you’re in the right place.  WAIT! What exactly does it mean to have a growth mindset?   If you’ve been listening to the TAT podcast for awhile, you probably know that this is how I open most of the TalkAboutTalk episodes.  I thought it might be wise to take a step back and examine this term – a growth mindset. So, Do YOU have a growth mindset? REALLY. Ask yourself.  Do you have a growth mindset?  Chances are. If you you’re listening to this podcast, you do have a growth mindset. You’re focused on growth and self improvement.  But the truth is many of us can turn up the dial. In the next 20 minutes or so, you’re going to learn what a growth mindset is, why it’s worth thinking about, and three specific ways that you can cultivate or adopt a growth mindset right now.  Are you ready? Before we get into this, I just want to say, if you have a thirst for knowledge, a thirst for growth, I encourage you to visit the TAT.com website, where you’ll find so many resources to help you out. There are online courses, tip sheets, corporate workshops, one-on-one coaching, some new opportunities for live group coaching programs, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, AND, I really hope you’ll sign up for the Talk About Talk communication coaching newsletter. This is your chance to get a few communication skills tips from me every week. Please sign up for that communication coaching newsletter if you haven’t already. Alright let’s get into this: what a growth mindset is,  why it’s important (particularly for entrepreneurs),  how to adopt a growth mindset.  At the end I’m going to share with you my top 3 simple strategies that you can employ right now to start thinking with a growth mindset. Let me back up. As an exec communication coach, people sometimes ask me what’s the MOST IMPT communication skill for managers.   I used to say listening.  Then I quickly learned confidence.  Then I kept hearing storytelling – which is more like the icing on the cake.  I talk a lot about the 3 superpowers of communication in my PODCAST, Talk About Talk.  This is episode #123. So that’s a lot of talking When I was coming up on 100 episodes, several listeners asked me what I was going to talk about to commemorate Talk About Talk episode #100. I decided to share my top 3 insights after 100 episodes.  These are 3 things that you’ve probably heard before, but that I think are under-appreciated. Do you want  to hear what they are? After 100 episodes, my top 3 insights: Keep it short It’s not about you. Adopt a growth mindset Then – what if I had to choose just 1? If I had to choose one thing that will help us with our communication – with LIFE, it’s that we should adopt a growth mindset. It’s important for everyone in so many many contexts. And that’s why we’re here! We all fail.  Sometimes we lead a meeting and it bombs. Or we make a point in a meeting and it gets ignored. Or we make a recommendation about a course of action and we’re wrong,  There are small failures and big, epic failures. It happens to ALL Of us, I promise.  You’ve probably heard that the most successful entrepreneurs all failed.  It’s almost like a cliche, right? It’s the hero’s Journey. Speaking of entrepreneurs, here are 3 impressive ones. What do they have in common? 3 Entrepreneurs who failed Steve Jobs – Apple 1 and Apple Lisa.  Steve Jobs had multiple failures.  One of the most famous and successful CEOs ever. HE GOT FIRED Sarah Blakely kicked out of stores. Youngest self-made female billionaire. Jeff Bezos. When the company began selling toys and books, Bezos insisted on changing the business model so the company could purchase and store millions of dollars in toys. More than 100 million toys were purchased and warehoused in anticipation of the Christmas season. After the holiday, 50 million toys were left. Amazon gave most of the toys away because of insufficient warehouse storage space. When Amazon first launched, people could leverage a glitch that allowed them to buy a negative number of books and receive a credit from the company. All 3 failed. What else do they have in common? A growth mindset I was thinking as I was pulling this together I realized that as a communication coach all my successful clients have a growth mindset.  There’s a self-selection…. They believe they can change and improve and grow. That’s why they invest in themselves.  And that’s why they’re successful. But that doesn’t mean they succeed 100% all the time. The secret Sauce?  A GROWTH MINDSET. This is grounded in academic research. Let me give you the quick Growth Mindset 101 lecture. Stanford University psychologist Dr. Carol Dweck distinguishes between a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset.  If you have a growth mindset, you’re curious. You improve.  You’re more comfortable with risks.  You’re ok with being wrong. You invest in self-improvement. You LEARN. You know those people who hear “you cant” and who respond: “just watch me?” If you’ve read GRIT by Angela Duckworh…. If you have a fixed mindset, you perceive yourself to have fixed skills, attributes and abilities. You’re less likely to invest in yourself. You’re defensive. You’re focused on self-verification. When you fail, you believe “that’s it.” Sounds imperceivable, but some of you invariably have a fixed mindset. You believe in genetic destiny.   You’re focused on finding the thing that comes easy for you, as opposed to the thing that you want to work on. OK, OK, so why should you care? Research shows significant effects of adopting a growth mindset: increased motivation; lower stress, anxiety and depression, better relationships and improved performance. So ask yourself: REALLY!!! Do you believe things can change? Or are they static? Do you believe people can change? Or are they pretty much set based on their genetics and their upbringing? Last week I was in California at Harvey Mudd College, which is a tiny elite STEM college. The faculty and students there are focused on CS, engineering, math, physics and chemistry, mostly.  Changing the world for the better. I met 18 yr old who spent last summer tagging sharks and dropping waterproof robots into the bottom of the ocean to track the sharks and the effects of global warming – incredible.  I met faculty that I truly believe will inspire students who will change the world for the better. ANYWAY that’s an aside.  But there’s a reason I’m mentioning this. When I was at Harvey Mudd College, I attended a presentation on design thinking and the prototype mindset. 💡 Have you heard of a prototype mindset?  Yes, I was thinking about you entrepreneurs as I was listening to this faculty presentation. Inventors prototype things. Right?  Sometimes explicitly or directly.  You might physically build a prototype. Or you might beta test something. Sometimes implicitly, when you test things.   This is a perfect example of having a growth mindset. Whether you’re creating a technology or an idea, think about prototyping. Prototyping is a fantastic analogy or metaphor for a growth mindset:  try fail repeat => success   Success!!!! So this prototyping mindset, or growth mindset.  Where does it come from? Well, think about how you were raised.  Yes, you might be able to blame – or give credit to – your parents.  Or your teachers Research shows us that children who are told “You are so good/bad at…” end up with a fixed mindset, whereas kids who are told “great effort!” end up being more successful bc they believe their effort will reap benefits so a young student who fails a math test might think “I’m bad at math.” And then decide to move away from all things STEM. So sad.   A student with a growth mindset will say “Hmm.  That’s one piece of information. I guess I need to better prep for these tests. An entrepreneur who makes a pitch and is turned down might say “this is a bad idea.” or “I guess I’m not cut out for this.”   Whereas an entrepreneur with a growth mindset will say “Hmm.  That is one piece of information.  What went well? Why did the investor say no?  What can I do differently next time?” Or if you’re trying to make a contribution at work and your idea gets rejected or ignored, do you think, “I guess that was a bad idea.” Or worse –  “I’m an idiot”  That’s a fixed mindset. If you have a growth mindset, you’ll think “Hmm, I wonder if I need to rework that idea.”  Or maybe rework how you present it. Do you get the idea?  When faced with failure, someone with a fixed mindset will turn away or turn off.   But someone with a growth mindset will take the “FAILURE” as information. SARA BLAKELY, the founder of SPANX, talks about how her father formed her ideas about FAILURE differently than most of us.  This is consistent with a  growth mindset. Richard Branson says it differently.  He says:  “If you don’t succeed at first, there’s no need for the F-Word (Failure). Pick yourself up, and try, try again.” Again, this is a growth mindset. I was thinking about how Yoda from Star Wars would put it: “There is no failure.  Only Learn.” Here’s Mine: “I know what I know and I’m keen to learn more.” 2 parts: Confidence in what I know Always keen to learn more 3 Ways TO ADOPT A GROWTH MINDSET Invest in self-improvement.  (you’re doing that right now. Investing money, sure, but TIME. Read. My clients. ) Andrea’s growth mindset mantra: 2 sides One of the easiest ways to adopt a growth mindset?  Use the word LEARN as much as you can. No such thing as failure.  Imagine failing is what is required to help you catapult. One last thought: You are creating your narrative. I tell this to my clients when they get laid off or to my kids when things don’t go their way.  Whenever we experience a challenge.  When the poop hits the fan, remember, you’re creating your own narrative.  Remember: there is no failure.  Only learning. Alright that’s it! If you’re investing in your growth mindset, you’re keen to learn more, I encourage you to go check out the talkabouttalk.com website. You can find the full archive of this podcast and lots more. While you’re on the talkabouttalk,com website, I hope you’ll sign up for the communication newsletter. That way you’ll get communication coaching from me every week in a simple-to-digest email.  Never more than once per week and no spam – I promise. That’s it for episode #123!  THANKS for LISTENING. Talk soon! The post #123 Adopting a GROWTH MINDSET appeared first on Talk About Talk.

What to wear to work? Your clothing communicates a lot about you, more than you probably think! Andrea shares what some of the research says about how we dress and others’ perception of us. Then she shares some do’s and don’ts  when choosing your outfit. Here’s a question: what’s your most successful, happiest self wearing to work in five years?   RESOURCES Talk About Talk Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Weekly Communication Skills Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Academic Papers Good looks and good practice: the attitudes of career practitioners to attractiveness and appearance – https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03069885.2016.1237615 Clothes make the leader! How leaders can use attire to impact followers’ perceptions of charisma and approval – https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0148296320307797#b0490 The Influence of Job Candidates’ Physical Appearance on Interview Evaluations – https://econtent.hogrefe.com/doi/abs/10.1027/1866-5888/a000223?journalCode=pps Dress, body and self: research in the social psychology of dress https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s40691-014-0020-7 What to wear? The influence of attire on the perceived professionalism of dentists and lawyers https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jasp.12136 City Employee Perceptions of the Impact of Dress and Appearance: You Are What You Wear – https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0091026013495772?journalCode=ppmd   TRANSCRIPT I have a question for you.  What are you wearing? Or more importantly, what are the clothes you’re wearing signalling or communicating about you?  If you’re listening to this podcast, I’m guessing you believe me when I say that how you dress communicates a lot.  In both personal and professional contexts. But I also bet that you underestimate how much your physical appearance matters.  Here’s the thing. According to research, your physical appearance, which includes your clothing, is the #1 most influential factor in employee selection, more important than other verbal and nonverbal behaviors like the things I just mentioned. If we’re going to be effective communicators, we need to talk about our clothing.  Let’s do this. I’m not a stylist.  I’m not going to tell you what brand of what shirt to wear with what pants and exactly how to style it.  I am going to share with you some factors to consider when you’re dressing yourself for work – when you’re shopping or when you’re looking at your closet and deciding what to wear.  What you wear signals or COMMUNICATES many things  I’m also going to share with you some of what the research says about that.  It’s fascinating!!! First though, let me introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m your executive communication coach. Please call me Andrea!  I’m the founder of Talk About Talk, where I coach communication skills to ambitious executives to help them elevate their communication, their confidence and their clarity, so they’ll get noticed for the right reasons and ultimately get promoted!  That’s my goal here.  I want to help you accelerate your career trajectory. If you go to the Talk About Talk.com website, you’ll find many resources to help you out. There’s information there about one-on-one coaching, online courses, corporate workshops, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, AND, I really hope you’ll sign up for the Talk About Talk newsletter. That newsletter is your chance to get communication coaching from me every week.  In this episode, I’m going to take you through the research, as I said, in terms of how our clothing affects others’ perceptions. I’m also going to share three things to consider when you’re choosing what to wear at work, 4 things to consider for what to wear in online meetings, and several don’ts.  As in what NOT to wear. As always, you don’t need to take notes because I will summarize everything for you at the end and you can always check the transcript in the shownotes.  SO again, you don’t need to take notes cause I do that for you. You’re welcome. All right let’s get into this. Let me start by saying that how we dress at work is changing a lot.  It’s like work-wear is having a moment.  Partly due to the pandemic and WFH for sure.  But even before the pandemic, people were wearing sneakers with their suit or dress.  And suits are less common. And ties are definitely becoming less common. Then there’s the whole fascination with FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried.  A certified slob.  If you don’t know what I’m talking about, try searching “Sam Bankman Fried.”  He’s a criminal and his story is bizarre. But what gets talked about is how much of a slob he is, in terms of how he dresses.  I was gonna share this advice for the very end of this episode, but I think I’m just going to share it right now. It’s advice I learned from my friend Anne Muhlethaler. She’s a luxury brand consultant, also a Yogi podcaster and a very cool human. She worked for designer Christian Louboutin for years and years and even headed up his communications and PR department.  Anne shared this exercise with me that I’m going to share with you now. First, close your eyes. Literally or physically? If you can, or at least get yourself into a state where you can be creative and think deeply. Then I want you to think about -imagine- your happiest and most successful self.  Maybe imagine you are in your office. Standing up at your desk, looking down at some paperwork. Your laptop is on your desk in front of you and. Maybe there’s one individual in your office that you’re having a rather informal conversation with. What’s in the room? What does the furniture look like? What do the walls look like? What do you have hanging on the wall? Is it your degree? Is it art? Remember, this is your happiest and most successful self. This is where you want to be. Now I want you to zoom out and look at yourself. What are you wearing? Think about what you’re wearing on top and on the bottom. What colour is it? How does the fabric feel? What are you wearing on your feet? Are you wearing the watch? What jewelry or accessories do you have? What about a belt? Are you wearing glasses? What kind of glasses? Top to bottom, get yourself in the zone of thinking about your happiest and most successful self. Do you have a vivid image in your mind of what you’re wearing?  Let me tell you what this outfit is for me. It’s an impeccably tailored Navy blue pantsuit. Made of gorgeous fabric that fits me perfectly. I have a very plain white blouse underneath the Navy blue suit. And I have gold chunky jewelry. Earrings a ring. And a big watch, which is kind of weird because I just started. I’ve started wearing an Apple Watch, which I absolutely love, but for some reason I had a big chunky wristwatch on when I was imagining this. I was also wearing a very high quality black belt with a designer gold designer buckle on it. And. Chunky, high heeled. Black leather. Pumps with. Gold hardware. Pretty specific, right?  When I shared this with my friend Anne, she said, Andrea, write it on your shopping list. Go buy the outfit. This is your happiest and most successful self. Go buy the outfit. So again, I ask you, what are you wearing when you imagine yourself in your office as your most successful self? It seems like a no-brainer that this is the outfit that we should be going out and buying for ourselves. Am I right? Now, I’m not encouraging you to go shopping on a major shopping spree after you listen to this episode. And I’m certainly not encouraging fast fashion. In fact, I strongly recommend the opposite. I recommend that you buy things that will last you for years and maybe even decades. A couple of years ago I interviewed the Executive director of Toronto Fashion Week, a talented woman named Carolyn Quinn. I’ll leave a link to that episode in the show notes. It was a long time ago. That was episode #16 and we’re now on episode 122 period. Anyway, Carolyn shares a lot of helpful advice. One thing that really stood out for me was she said that if you’re shopping and you pick up a piece of clothing that you can’t imagine wearing in 10 years, then put it back on the rack and walk away. WHY IT’S IMPORTANT – WHAT THE RESEARCH SAYS Whole slew of research on the impact of uniforms.   Not talking about that.  We’re focusing on when you get to choose what you wear, top to bottom. At least within a dress code nonverbal signals like clothing, hairstyle, facial expression, gestures, and mimicry, as well as on verbal cues regarding the content and manner of speech  Clothing is an easily accessible form of self-presentation and is strongly incorporated into our daily routines  Yes, it matters! Affect people’s perceptions of you. Sometimes you might not care so much about that, but sometimes people’s perceptions matter a lot.  Like when you’re gunning for a promotion, or selling something, or making an important presentation. Or maybe when you’re interviewing for a new job. Here’s the thing. According to research, your physical appearance, which includes your clothing, is the most influential factor in employee selection, more important than other verbal and nonverbal behaviors like the things I just mentioned. By the way, I had a lot of fun reading up and doing the research for this episode.  Like I said, I’m not a stylist, but I enjoy clothing and colour and fashion. And certainly I care about how I look.  SO imagine how I felt when I read the research showing evidence of a clear relationship between one’s emphasis on appearance and two things: extraversion (yes), I’m an extrovert! And neuroticism.  Wait – what? OK,  Anyway, it turns out that focusing on your physical appearance and your clothing choices is a smart thing to do. Research also shows that people judge all sorts of things about us based on how we dress. It also affects how we feel about ourselves.  Have you ever noticed how your mood changes when you get dressed up?  Or even when you get dressed down into your comfy sweats.  How we dress can signal or communicate social values, desire for conformity, ambition, rank (as in your professional seniority) and of course social status,  If you want to feel and act professional, then dress professionally. I read one study that looked at two factors: gender and clothing formality for dentists and lawyers.  So, this was in the context of professionals.  Think of it as a two by two matrix. You have gender on one axis and formality on the other. You’ve got 4 conditions. You have females that are dressed casually, females that are dressed formally, males that are dressed casually, and males that are dressed formally. Can you guess which condition in this two by two matrix was judged as more suitable, capable, easier to talk to and friendlier than all the other conditions? Of course you can. It’s the men who were dressed in more formal professional attire who won. I’m hoping as gender dynamics evolve, the results of that study will also change. I could go on about this but let me get back to some other research that you might find interesting.  One research study I read demonstrated that neatness and formality signals conscientiousness and  extraversion. Hmm.  That extraversion factor again. Another study demonstrated that flashy and neat clothing impresses strangers at first glance.  This is the antithesis of what FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried wore. Sam was infamous for wearing boring t’s or baggy sweatshirts, with sloppy walking shorts, black socks and tattered shoes. Not flashy and not neat. When I think neat, I think Steve Jobs in his impeccable black turtleneck.  Not so flashy though. Flashy and neat would be the impeccably tailored suit, maybe in bright red. The reminds me, one of my favourite outfits to wear when I’m doing a keynote or a workshop is a bright turquoise Argent blazer.  Very well-tailored, fits me well, and the colour is bold.  Bold colours are an easy way to add some flash.  I’m going to highlight for you more of the research as we go along with some do’s and don’ts.  But I just wanted to establish first that what you wear really does matter.  It is an effective and relatively easy way to reinforce your personal brand to others AND to yourself. And don’t worry, just because you pay attention to your wardrobe, it doesn’t mean you’re neurotic.  I’d say you’re being smart. FACTORS TO CONSIDER For when you’re shopping or when you’re looking at your closet and wondering what to wear to work. I have three general suggestions. The first is WRT FORMALITY: If you’re not sure, dress up, not down. The research in this is pretty conclusive.  If you want to be perceived as a leader and as competent, trustworthy, intelligent (yes, were judging that by your clothing, scary, right?), then you’d be well-advised to dress formally, In many cases, that means in a suit. This is consistent with that advice for dressing for work that I’m sure we’ve all heard: Dress for the job you want, not the job you have.  Need some evidence for why?  One study showed that people attribute higher intelligence to students and to teachers when they wear more formal clothing.  If you’re a therapist, you should know that research shows your clients are more likely to return if you wear more formal rather than casual clothing.  I guess as a coach, I should keep this in mind! Research shows that simply putting on a suit, or if you’re in an online meeting, a blazer or suit jacket will communicate power, status, and rationality. Speaking of online meetings, the pandemic has been a catalyst for a lot of change in many different contexts. One of those contexts is what we wear at work. The culture of suit and tie has evolved to business casual to sometimes frumpy.  For example, one thing that’s changed is how men are wearing ties less frequently.  Of course, when they’re going business casual, but even when they’re wearing a suit. They’re leaving the tie at home.  And the short from dress shoes to sneakers is pretty widely accepted. Often now those sneakers cost a lot more than dress shoes! Generally, though, our attire, our work wear is becoming less formal, more casual. There is research out there showing that wearing less formal or even casual attire leads to feelings of friendliness and creativity.  Both of those are good things.  But I encourage you, whenever you’re wondering how formal to go, err on the side of formality. Especially if traits like competence, trustworthiness, intelligence, power, status and rationality are things you want to be known for. I also encourage you to Be prepared for the unexpected: keep a basic blazer on a hanger in the back of your door that you can put on when you have an unexpected meeting with a client. INTEGRATE HOW YOU DRESS WITH YOUR PERSONAL BRAND We talk a lot about personal branding on this podcast. So how exactly can you integrate how you dress with your personal brand? Well, remember your PB is comprised of prioritized themes that describe you in a way that is positive, unique and relevant to you.  The same can go for how you dress.  And you can make some part of your style, how you dress into part of your personal brand.  For me, it’s all about turquoise. I love turquoise. It makes me happy. It’s a vibrant, energetic colour.  And people often tell me that they appreciate my energy.  . Some of my colleagues have even made comments when they see me after not seeing me for a while if I’m NOT wearing turquoise!  So, it could be a signature colour.  Or it could be a brand that you love.  Or a classic piece that you often wear, like Steve Job’s black turtleneck, or maybe it’s flashy neckties.  Or gorgeous shoes.  Or silk scarves.  You get the idea. I’m thinking about a woman I know who wears a lot of green because it looks gorgeous with her green eyes. It’s part of her personal brand. Another woman I know always has long, impeccably manicured nails. That’s part of her brand. Another who purposefully dresses in bold colours.  She tells people that her clothing matches her personality, which is big, as opposed to her stature, which is small. I love how she dresses for her personality, and she calls it out, explicitly. Lori, you’re a star. Then there’s the chair of one of the boards I was on who was known for having high quality impeccably pressed, or starched, dress shirts. Not a bad thing to be known for,  Remember the research I was telling you about at the beginning?  Imagine how being known for wearing perfect dress shirts would impact people’s perceptions and assumptions of you as an executive Are you feeling inspired?  Maybe you’re wondering how exactly you integrate your personal style with your personal brand? I’d start with something you love.  It could be a colour or a style or a particular piece of clothing or an accessory.  Then ask yourself what someone with your expertise, your ambitions, and your values would do with that.  Then go for it and have fun.  Make it part of your identity.  Make it part of what people remember about you. SO that’s the 2nd thing to think about. The first is formality.  The second is integrating how you dress with your personal brand.  The third is an adage that I learned from a  friend of mine who IS a fashionista. I, talking about YOU, Tania! Tania was a model in her teens.  I met her when we were both in our 20s.  We talked a lot about fashion.  She shared this adage with me that I still think about.  It’s this: Hair, hands, and feet. When we pull together an outfit, we typically think top and bottom.  Shirt and pants.  But we need to pay a lot more attention to 3 other things: our hair, our hands, and our feet.  If you want to look really pulled together, you need to look after your hair, you need to have presentable hands (that means your nails and possibly jewelry, and you need clean, polished shoes.   Footwear makes a big impact, but in my opinion, footwear is underappreciated.  Literally last night I went out for dinner and made this mistake…. I went out for dinner with some girlfriends.  I put on my favorite black wool dress pants and a lovely sweater.  I remember spending some time choosing my jewelry. My footwear didn’t cross my mind until my friend rang my doorbell and was standing in my front hall.  In retrospect, my boots kind of wrecked the outfit.  So, I need to step it up when it comes to pulling together my outfit in terms of my footwear.  Again, Hair, hands, and feet. The one time your footwear might NOT matter at work is you’re in online meetings.  You can wear your comfy slippers or even get your dogs out, as my kids might say. I have a list of four suggestions for what to wear in online meetings. Are you ready? WHAT TO WEAR FOR ONLINE MEETINGS 1. Solids – not patterns.  Solids just look better on camera.  So, no stripes, no plaid, no florals, no geometric designs.  Keep it solid when you’re online.  Then, when you go into the office, bring out the patterns and prints. 2. Blue. Wear blue.  Apparently blue looks great on camera. I think that’s true,  Sometimes browns and greens and other colours can look off on camera.  Blues are safe.   I happen to love blue, but that could be part of the point here too.  Blue is more people’s favourite colour than any other colour.  So, if you’re wondering what colour, choose blue. 3. Dress quietly.  What – what? I’m talking mostly about jewellery or other accessories that might clang and make distracting noises. Like big earrings that clang on your air pods or a watch or bracelets that clang on your desk. If you’re wearing corded earbuds, make sure your speaker, on the wire, isn’t brushing against your clothing.  That’s super annoying. Watch jewellery and accessories that clang!  Quiet accessories. I heard a news reporter on the radio a few days ago who clearly had something rubbing against his microphone.  SO annoying.  OK, so when you’re in online meetings, dress quietly.  Especially take care of your accessories.  The next thing, number 4 is really for your sake. Its: with clanging… 4. Wear something that’s comfortable for sitting. Of course, remember what I said at the beginning. You’re not just signalling to others, but also to yourself. If you want to feel professional and productive, then dress that way. But balance that with the fact that you’re sitting, and you want to be comfortable.  So those are the 4 points about what to wear for online meetings.  Now we’re shifting gears and I’m going to get into the fun stuff.  What NOT to wear. DON’Ts: WHAT TO AVOID WEARING The first thing I have to say  Don’t violate the dress code: If there’s an event dress code and you don’t know what it means, maybe google it. Or even ask the organizer. These things are fluid as our culture changes, so too do dress code definitions.  Trust me, what my daughter and her friends wear to a semi-formal is very different from what I wore to a semiformal when I was her age. Similarly, what qualifies as cocktail dress or even work casual isn’t always clear,  Don’t be afraid to ask! So there’s the event dress code.  There’s also your firm’s dress code. Your firm’s dress code may be formalized, with rules written out.  My son had a summer job last year at a tech company that had a surprisingly strict dress code.  It was written out Other firms have dress codes that aren’t written out, They are implicitly understood.. Regardless, look around the successful senior folks and it should be pretty clear what’s acceptable. Some firms and industries also have written or unwritten rules about what to wear for different types of activities.  Like when you’re in internal meetings versus meeting with clients.  That’s important.  My suggestion is to Be prepared for the unexpected: keep a basic blazer on a hanger on the back of your door.  And maybe a pair of black leather shoes that you can use to dress up an outfit. When it comes to dress codes, there’s also a sort of a code by season, isn’t there? What’s ok to wear in the summer is different from what’s acceptable in the winter. One violation I read about again and again when I was reading up for this episode was how easy it is to mess up with summer wear. It can be easy in the summer to get more casual, perhaps too casual, and also to show too much skin for some contexts.  Alright, so were talking don’ts.  Do not violate the dress code.  What else? Never ever wear anything that’s dirty or stained.   Also, don’t wear anything that’s torn or frayed.  That should also go without saying, but I see a lot of torn and frayed clothing, especially pants, and especially jeans.  Torn, frayed jeans may be stylish (are they anymore? I’m not sure,  I lost track) Regardless, they send the wrong message. And as for messages, watch those graphic t’s. That should also go without saying.  Watch what your clothes are saying.  Sometimes literally. Oh – here’s a DON’T.  Not exactly clothing, but it’s something you wear,  Fragrance.  Whether it’s cologne or perfume or aftershave, don’t wear it at work. Scent allergies are a real thing.  And you might be sending the wrong message.  Save the fragrance for your day off. Next, avoid clothing that’s too revealing. Short shorts and short skirts are a no no. And no bare midriffs, despite what they show in the fashion layouts. Hey – if you’re the CEO, maybe you can make the rules and show off your six pack. But until then, cover your belly.  I read somewhere that sleeveless is definitely a nono for men. Short sleeves are ok in the summer if the shirt has a collar. And for women, sleeveless is ok if it’s a well-tailored top and as long as you’re not showing too much skin elsewhere.  That reminds me: Footwear. No flip flops.  (And of course, no Crocs – please.  DO I have to say it?).  Those rules stand.  But the good news is that footwear is getting a lot more comfortable.  As long as they’re clean and crisp, you can get away with sneakers with a dress or a business suit.  Bare toes? That’s less clear. The advice about open toed pumps is inconsistent.  A few articles I read said strappy, toe revealing sandals are ok for women, but more of them advised against it. My recommendation is cover our feet. You can find some cute pumps that cover your toes.  Plus, as some of you may know, I have three teenagers.  And lately I keep hearing them talking about how feet are disgusting. Not MY feet. We’re talking feet in general. Have you heard this? Of course, they get it from social media. They call people’s feet their dogs.  And if you see bare feet, or even toes, they’ll say “EEEWWWW! Your dogs are out. Yo. Whose dogs are these? Put those dogs away! I guess it’s a thing.  Don’t show your dogs.  Cover your toes. And that feels like a good place to stop.  We’ve covered you now from the top of your head – your hair, down to your toes. Now, as promised, and as I always do, let me briefly summarize. As I got through this list, I hope you’ll consider a few pointers that will help you next time you’re staring at your closet and feeling uninspired. CLOSING MUSIC – NOT TOO LOUD SUMMARY We started with what the research says about how what we wear affects or signals how we are perceived – by others and by ourselves.  your physical appearance, which includes your clothing, is the most influential factor in employee selection,  How you dress impacts people’s judgment of you in terms of extraversion, neuroticism.  social values, desire for conformity, ambition, rank ,  social status, charisma, conscientiousness, and extraversion.  So, what look should you go for? Three suggestions: 1. FORMALITY – There’s tomes of research pointing to formality.  That said, what qualifies as formal is evolving. But if you’re not sure, dress up, not down. 2. Integrate how you dress with your personal brand.  If you want to be known for your energy, try bold colours. If you want a job, dress the part. If you have a favourite colour or a favourite accessory, you love scarves or ties, go for it, and make it part of your PB. 3. HAIR HANDS & FEET – it’s not just what you’re wearing on top and on the bottom.  Consider your hair, hands and feet.  And especially your footwear. Four suggestions for online meetings: Solids – not patterns Wear blue. Dress quietly – watch your jewellery and accessories for noise Wear something that’s comfortable for sitting.  What not to wear.  These are the don’ts: Do not violate the dress code. It could be an event dress code, it could be your firm’s dress code. , or it could be the code of what’s acceptable by season. Never ever wear anything that’s dirty or stained or torn or frayed.  watch the messages on those graphic t’s. avoid clothing that’s too revealing – we got into a lot of detail there. And last:  Footwear. You can have fun now, wearing sneakers . But no flip flops.  No Crocs, and  – please, no bare toes.  Put those dogs away. TRY EXERCISE AGAIN. Now one more thing before I let you go. Remember at the beginning of this episode, I took you through the visualization exercise.  I encourage you to try it again.  Now that we’ve talked about some of the research on clothing and how what you wear affects specific judgments of you.  We’ve talked about formality and your personal brand and hair hands and feet. And more. So, I ask you again.  Imagine yourself in 5 or 10 years.  You are your most successful self.  What are you wearing?  That outfit belongs in your closet NOW, not just ten years from now. Got it? OK, that was fun.  Before you go, I’m wondering whether you have any questions or suggestions for me. Perhaps you have a suggestion for a future podcast topic? There are two main ways you can contact me.  You can email me at andrea@talkabouttalk.com or go to the talkabouttalk.com website and leave me a recorded message there. While you’re on the website, please please sign up for the weekly communication coaching newsletter. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.  And if you enjoyed this podcast episode, I hope you’ll share it with your friends who might also be seeking to improve their communication skills. Thanks for listening.  And talk soon! The post #122 What to WEAR at Work appeared first on Talk About Talk.