Regenerative Agriculture Podcast

Bob Quinn is a 30-plus year veteran of Regenerative Organic practices and founder of Kamut International, an organization devoted to high quality Khorasan wheat and sustainable agricultural practices. After receiving his PhD in plant biochemistry from UC-Davis, Bob returned home to work on his family's wheat and cattle ranch just outside of Big Sandy, Montana. In the mid 80's, the farm became his "laboratory" as Bob began implementing regenerative organic systems long before they rose to prominence. The Quinn's began planting a Khorasan wheat they would call "Kamut"—an ancient Egyptian word for "wheat"—which would end up seeing a lot of success with whole grain bakeries in Southern California. "My business philosophy is start small and build on your success. I don't have a big pile of money, so I can't go out and just try big experiments, so I try small experiments. If they're successful, then I build on those. And that's what we did, we started with a half an acre [of Kamut®] which was all that seed that we had in 1988—30 years later, we are contracting with 250 organic regenerative farmers in Montana, Alberta, and Saskatchewan for over 100,000 acres of this stuff." Kamut® is a distant relative to the modern wheat crop that is known for its unique flavor and health benefits. Ancient Grains like Kamut® see much lower yield potential than modern wheat, which over time lead some manufacturers to mix Kamut® with lower quality grains. In an attempt to protect the quality of the grain and the end consumer, Bob decided to trademark the grain, guaranteeing an unhybridized, unmodified, and organic product for their growing list of customers—in fact today, a staggering 75% of their grain goes to Italy. During the episode, Bob goes into detail about how improved testing equipment led to a surprising discovery about minute glyphosate levels in their crops. Kamut International has been organic since its inception, but at one point almost a third of their farmers were sending grain that tested slightly higher than ten parts per billion in glyphosate. Bob was astounded when he discovered that glyphosate is so prevalent in American agriculture that trace amounts can be found in the rain during the growing season. Since this discovery, Kamut International has overhauled their testing protocols and mitigated trace glyphosate levels whenever possible. Whether you are the buyer, the manufacturer, or the consumer, Bob believes in a "everybody wins" approach to business. He believes his impact and scale was achieved by paying farmers more, so he prides himself in the ability to implement economic incentives anywhere he can. Bob recalls in his conversation with John that almost 30 years ago, he began offering three times the amount of the commodity wheat price for Kamut® wheat, which proved to be a very effective business move. Today, that incentive has grown to five times the commodity price. Bob's expertise goes way beyond wheat, for a farmer located in the Upper Great Plains he has an unlikely variety of successfully growing dryland produce. Throughout the episode, Bob goes into detail about how this production came to be and how regenerative organic practices allow him to grow things like watermelon and summer squash in Montana. Bob and John also discuss nutritional value of ancient grains, how the western diet has led to a jump in autoimmune disorders, and the concerning rise of glyphosate levels in our food. Bob also tells the story of how his company accidentally came upon creating cooking oil in the search to create a better diesel fuel.

In our latest episode, John sits down with one of Australia's most recognized thought leaders in Regenerative Agriculture, Dr. Terry McCosker. Over the course of three decades, Terry has worked with about 10,000 Australian farmers—a staggering 10% of all farmland on the continent—coaching them through an agricultural approach that emphasizes both soil nutrition & pasture ecology. Terry currently serves as the director of RCS, an Australian agriculture consulting firm, but his career started at an early age when he had the opportunity to work on an Australian cattle station. Driven by a fearless pursuit of excellence, Terry found that most of the problems that faced the cattle station, as well as other operations across the country, stemmed from an outdated reductionist view of farming. As he continued his research, which included traveling to farms across the globe, he saw firsthand the power of holistic practices and their effects on livestock. Terry began challenging the paradigms of conventional farming and what he observed were results like an increase in livestock reproduction and mortality rates. Throughout the episode, John and Terry discuss the work of Stan Parsons and Allan Savory, the importance of cell grazing alongside other regenerative practices, the proper strategies farmers use to approach succession planning, and the fascinating future potential of carbon sequestration. "A client of mine once said that he thought he was a livestock producer. And then he came to one of our programs and went away thinking that he was a grass producer. And then over time, as he's learned more and more, he now believes he's a soil manager. If you understand that you're a soil manager, the production and the economics of your farm will actually look after itself…to be truly regenerative, a farmer needs to understand that they are a part of the ecosystem, not apart from it." -Dr. Terry McCosker

In our latest episode of the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, John interviews plant pathology veteran & agricultural visionary, Dr. Robert Linderman, discussing the benefits of mycorrhizal fungi and other bio-control agents that protect crops from soil-borne pathogens. After receiving his Ph.D. in Plant Pathology from U.C. Berkley in 1967, Robert would spend the next 40-plus years contributing pivotal research findings to the USDA and other agricultural organizations. During his time with the USDA, Robert was introduced to a colleague who was fascinated by the power of mycorrhizal fungi and their ability to keep pathogens at bay. Their conversation ignited Robert's pursuit to understand mycorrhizae symbiosis. Throughout the episode, John and Robert discuss the benefits of building up antagonistic organisms in the soil to create a disease suppressive environment, allowing crops to thrive. In addition to other educated approaches to battling pathogens in your soil, Robert also takes listeners into a deep dive of the Ashburner System, telling the story of how one Australian avocado grower utilized a mycorrhizal fungi strategy—without even knowing it—to suppress phytophthora outbreak across his orchard. "Farms, whether they're seeding or transplanting or planting bulbs or whatever, need to treat that material where the infection is going to happen…to have something there waiting for the pathogen when it tries to get into the plant is the best chance. It's like immunizing a child for infections that might come. You build up some kind of resistance and the resistance is in a biological form." -Linderman Robert and John also discuss the thoughtful inoculation of propagules, mycorrhizal fungi's effect on photosynthesis, concerns about single factor analysis found in agricultural research, and the true price of the "instant gratification" chemical fix.

In this episode of the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, John interviews Loran Steinlage of Flolo Farms in Iowa. They discuss his experience in relay cropping, interseeding, cover crops, and controlled traffic farming. Loran grows grain crops for seed, has implemented youth programs on the farm, and has experimented with 60-inch corn. Listen for practical advice from a current grain farmer. Loran grew up planning to be a livestock farmer like his father, but was hit by a semi at the age of 14, causing him to change his plans. Today Loran grows corn, beans, wheat, rye, barley, buckwheat, sunflowers, and oats. Typically, they do relay cropping and interseeding, though this year they have not been able to do relay cropping due to a freeze in May of their cereal crops. In 2006 Loran began interseeding while his whole farm was corn on corn. Through interseeding, he found his way into cover crops and relay cropping. In the fall there are cereal crops such as winter wheat, rye, spring malt barley, or oats. Loran watches for stand quality, sometimes rolling over into corn if the stands aren't good enough. Otherwise, he sows soybeans at the normal time. Loran uses a 30-inch planter to give more room for the combine. In July winter wheat is harvested, then cereal rye, then malt barley. If there is a window with good weather, they add buckwheat and harvest it and the soybean crop together. Loran's method has long been to focus on seed quality for economic viability. Uniform emergence is the key that ensures all the heads mature at the same time for a high-quality harvest. Once cereal crops dry and re-wet, germination quality goes down, so they try to harvest the cereal as it dries. For a few years, they were making $7-$8 per bushel on malt barley. Food grade wheat can earn a $2-$3 premium, but with grain cleaners the value can be almost doubled. Loran receives a minimum of $10 for cereal rye seed. He utilizes controlled traffic and stays on the tramlines to avoid creating compaction or driving on the crop. Controlled traffic has great results in a field, but it requires more forethought and careful management to be successful so it has not been widely adopted. Even if there's a small yield loss, Loran avoids straying from the tramlines as much as possible. About 5 or 10 farmers participated in a tramline study with Bob Recker, with only Loran interseeding cover crops. The extra biomass in the tramlines was very valuable, and a 60-inch gap provided extremely high quality cover crops. Bob Recker did further testing of his "barcode plot" and saw that the 60-inch gap was significantly better than the 30-inch gap for cover crop production. This year, he plans to relay cereal crops into standing 60-inch corn, which in his experience has yielded equivalent or better to 30-inch corn. He attributes some of that to having a precise planter. He also questions if yield should be the ultimate goal. Loran believes growers around him who sacrifice some yield for grazing days can attain 2-3 months of grazing instead of one, which can substantially lower feed costs. Loran believes kids belong in agriculture today, and that it isn't happening enough. He believes in self-education and the importance of allowing kids to learn on-farm, rather than going off to college. In pursuit of this goal, Loran's started a 4-H program on his farm and increased field days. Having the children working with soil scientists can inspire them so they want to enter the field, and he's seen some success stories already. He thinks that more people need to step out of the way and let young people take their place. Loran sees the future of agriculture being focused on niche markets. He wants people to build an operation to fill voids in the market, rather than taking other people's ideas and trying to make them fit their operation. He would change government intervention in agriculture if he could. If inherent risk was returned to farming, he believes competition and innovation would return. He also wants people to learn more about practices used after the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression and to combine those with current knowledge to improve fertility and soil health. Resources:The Steinlage Way Loran Steinlage on Twitter Growing Crops 365 Days a Year - Loran Steinlage Corn Maverick: Cracking the Mystery of 60-Inch Rows Jill Clapperton, Rhizoterra

In this episode of the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, John interviews Professor Richard Mulvaney from the University of Illinois. Dr. Mulvaney is a prolific soil fertility scientist and researcher with many published papers relating to nitrogen and potassium uptake in crops. His work with Dr. Saeed Khan led to the development of the Illinois Soil Nitrogen Test (ISNT). John and Dr. Mulvaney discuss nitrogen uptake in crops, how soil should provide most of the needed nitrogen, and the fallacy that applying nitrogen builds soil organic matter. He also describes the "potassium paradox", how significant amounts of potassium are available from the soil, and the damaging cycle that is created when applying potash. Nitrogen Fertilization (00:00:53)Dr. Mulvaney began working in soil fertility in the 1980s with a focus on minimizing nitrogen fertilizer loss to increase crop uptake, specifically in regard to the isotope N-15. In collaboration with Dr. Saeed Khan in the 1990s, he found evidence that in some cases, fertilizer nitrogen on corn has no statistically significant response. At the time, most soil scientists were operating with the assumption that the optimal amount of fertilizer nitrogen is found by multiplying 1.2 times an expected yield goal, then deducting nitrogen credits such as a previous legume. In a project in Illinois studying on-farm plots, around 33 of 75 studied sites showed no significant response to fertilizer nitrogen, a finding inconsistent with the 1.2 method. The unfertilized yields, or check yields, were very high and not significantly increased with an application of nitrogen. Thus, Dr. Mulvaney hypothesized that the 1.2 calculation might not be as reliable as previously thought. Dr. Khan and Dr. Mulvaney conducted research to determine the difference between plots used in that study that were responsive and those that were unresponsive to fertilizer nitrogen applications. His wife noted that while soil scientists understand how carbon in plants is heterogeneous and decomposes at different rates, they assume that nitrogen is all the same. Examining the differences within nitrogen forms made clear that the plants at the non-responsive sites had sufficient levels of nitrogen available from the soil and so did not need nitrogen fertilizer applications. Using diffusion on the soil samples from the same study, they found that non-responsive soils were consistently testing higher in amino sugar nitrogen. The prevailing thought at the time was that fertilizer is the primary source of nitrogen for crop uptake, especially for corn. However, Mulvaney's and Khan's data shows that at least two thirds of the nitrogen in the crop at harvest is supplied from the soils, rather than from applied fertilizer nitrogen. In soils with higher amounts of amino sugar nitrogen, applications of fertilizer nitrogen are a waste of money because most or all of the nitrogen is supplied by the soil. It follows that measured soil nitrogen is only correlated with crop response to applied nitrogen when soil tests measure amino sugar nitrogen. The 1.2 method was developed from research trials on static plots. These corn plots received the same fertilizer treatments each year. On the unfertilized plots, corn used the nutrients from the soil with no nitrogen fertilizer added. Microbes will also use nitrogen from the soil to break down crop residues, depleting the following crop of nitrogen and depressing yields. The depletion of nitrogen resulting in depressed yields on the unfertilized plots makes the fertilizer effect appear more dramatic in comparison. Because the 1.2 method is based on static plots, it and its related assumptions are invalid when applied to farmer fields. Similarly, the assumption that one-third of the nitrogen will come from the soil is incorrect. In reality, two-thirds of the nitrogen is supplied from soils and only one third or less comes from fertilizer. These misconceptions have misled growers on the importance of nitrogen applications. Because soil is the primary source of nitrogen for crop uptake, soils should be tested to determine how much nitrogen fertilizer should be applied. Dr. Mulvaney and Dr. Khan developed the Illinois Soil Nitrogen Test (ISNT) to estimate the amino sugar fraction for variable-rate nitrogen application recommendations. A former student of Dr. Mulvaney runs the lab at Cropsmith, where the Illinois Soil Nitrogen Test is available. Expansion on Amino Sugar Nitrogen (00:24:15)Amino sugars are an organic form of nitrogen produced by microbial activity. They occur in microbial cell walls, spores, and in chitin. The bacterial cell walls are more decomposable. Nitrogen shows up in asparagine and glutamine, essential amino acids, which contain one nitrogen atom each in the amino group and the amide group, which is prone to break down. It is estimated that 5-10% of soil organic nitrogen is in the form of amino sugars, but Dr. Mulvaney believes it is likely higher. Amino sugar nitrogen, more specifically referred to as alkali hydrolyzable nitrogen, will also increase with more soil biological activity. Manured soils have higher levels of it, and thus have a diminished need for synthetic fertilizer nitrogen. Although his lab has not studied cover crops directly, he believes having active plants in the soil will increase microbial activity and thus the amino sugar nitrogen. The Morrow Plots, located at the University of Illinois and established in 1876, are the oldest continuous research plots in North America. They are static plots with three rotations, continuous corn, corn-soybean, and corn-oats-hay. In his research, Dr. Khan noticed that the continuous corn plots were not as healthy and had lower yields than the corn-oats-hay plots, even though the continuous corn plots received significantly more nitrogen fertilizer. The results of the Illinois Soil Nitrogen Test were lower on the continuous corn plots, which shows that synthetic nitrogen fertilizer is not necessarily building soil organic matter. Research comparing samples from 1955, 1967, and 2005 showed decreases in organic matter on the fertilized subplots. Dr. Mulvaney explains that the fertilizer actually "burned" organic matter. Carbon metabolism requires nitrogen, in a ratio of about 7 carbon to 1 nitrogen, so microbes can only access carbon from crop residue with nitrogen availability. When the microbes have too much nitrogen, they burn off the excess carbon as carbon dioxide rather than building soil organic matter. Additionally, conventional fertilizers have an oxidizing effect on soil microbial communities and stimulate respiration, which releases carbon from the soil as carbon dioxide. Dr. Mulvaney notes that William Albrecht published a paper in 1938 in a handbook from the USDA where he stated that adequate nitrogen is needed to build organic matter. Later that year, Albrecht published an article in the Soil Science Society of America Proceedings based on results which showed that unfertilized plots had gained organic matter while fertilized plots had lost it. Albrecht never again said adequate nitrogen is needed. Potassium Paradox (0:43:40)Dr. Mulvaney worked with Dr. Khan, an expert on potassium, to write papers on the potassium paradox. He was doing soil testing for potassium on the South Farm at Illinois, testing from the surface plow layer to about seven inches into the soil. The unfertilized plots increased in their average potassium levels, leading to the realization that the soil was releasing potassium. There are about 40,000 pounds of potassium per acre in just the top six inches of many Midwestern soils. A review of numerous potassium studies showed that there is no significant yield increase from potash fertilization. Clay layers, mostly found in the subsoil rather than the plow layer, hold significant quantities of potassium. When the plant roots reach those lower levels, they find large quantities of potassium that they extract with the biological functions of the root system. Because potassium is a major plant cation, there are high levels of soluble potassium carbonate in crop residue. Salts are leached from crop residue during rainfall, resulting in most of the potassium in a corn crop returning to the soil and making potassium fertilization unnecessary. Potassium is also fixed in the clay due to its size, leading to high potassium retention in clay layers with sufficient moisture. These factors lead to sufficient potassium levels in the soil. A German researcher, Mengel, performed a greenhouse study where he removed the clay fraction from soil, and potassium uptake was still high. This led to the idea that potassium in the clay layers is unavailable to plants, but Dr. Mulvaney disagrees. He finds that the plants are able to make the potassium available by producing acids. Soil testers measure the exchangeable potassium in soils, and do not measure the non-exchangeable and mineral potassium. This means that they will underestimate the available potassium and will recommend potassium fertilization, though it may not be necessary. As further evidence that potassium fertilization is typically unnecessary, Dr. Mulvaney refers to Cyril Hopkins, a 20th-century soil scientist, who claimed that potassium is not a necessary input because the soil already contains enough. The potassium paradox is based on the fact that applying potash to soil makes potassium less available by collapsing the clay layers. To demonstrate, Dr. Mulvaney tells a story about a fertilizer dealer who applied potassium to soils that had tested low for potassium. When they re-tested the field, the potassium levels were even lower. They assumed they had the wrong field, re-applied potassium on the same field, and again found lower potassium levels afterward. Thus, applying potassium can worsen potassium deficiency. Dr. Mulvaney advises growers to use the Illinois Soil Nitrogen Test or another similar test. It doesn't test for nitrate, which is dynamic, but tests a more stable nitrogen, specifically amino sugar nitrogen. This allows many growers to save money on purchased inputs such as nitrogen fertilizer if they do not need it. Rather than soil testing for potassium, he recommends strip trials comparing strips with no potassium fertilizer and strips with a small amount, as large amounts are never necessary. He also recommends using sulfate for potassium fertilizer, rather than Muriate of Potash, because the chloride content in Muriate of Potash diminishes nitrate uptake. Resources: Richard Mulvaney, Professor Cropsmith Solvita, invented by Will Brinton Solvita SLAN Test Rhizophagy Cycle: An Oxidative Process in Plants for Nutrient Extraction from Symbiotic Microbes by James White Ken Ferrie, Farm Journal Dr. Mulvaney's Research The Potassium Paradox, Mulvaney and Khan Morrow Plots William Albrecht, "Loss of Soil Organic Matter and Its Restoration" 1938 William Albrecht, Variable Levels of Biological Activity in Sanborn Field after Fifty Years of Treatment Mengel paper, 1994 Bulletin No. 182 "Potassium From the Soil" Cyril Hopkins

In this episode of the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, John interviews Dr. David Johnson, a New Mexico State University research scientist, Adjunct Professor for the College of Agriculture at Chico State, and Faculty Affiliate for the Center for Regenerative Agriculture. His research clearly outlines the importance of managing the ratio between fungal and bacterial populations in the soil for plant productivity and carbon sequestration. During his research on the salinity of manure compost, Dr. Johnson and his wife, Hui-Chun Su, developed the BEAM Soil Compost Bioreactor which develops compost with high fungal populations. John and Dr. Johnson discuss carbon cycling and the capacity of biology to sequester carbon and build soil organic matter. The conversation provides a fascinating look at the role of carbon dioxide in agriculture and the environment, how the ratio of fungal to bacterial populations in the soil are key to carbon cycling, and the methodology growers can employ to actively increase soil organic matter while decreasing costs. Carbon Sequestration (00:02:00)Dr. Johnson explains that high concentrations of carbon dioxide are problematic due to the impact on the climate, increasing the global temperature, rather than the impact of CO2 on plants, which like high concentrations of carbon. Due to those effects, carbon sequestration must be part of sustainable agriculture. John mentions that he has seen organic matter gains in the fields of half a percentage point per year, a very rapid improvement. Dr. Johnson believes that rate is possible, but only with cattle or other grazers in the system. In his experiments based solely on biology, he sees a little over a quarter of a percentage point per year increase in soil organic matter, or 10 tons of carbon per hectare. The Microbial Community (00:08:00) In order to realize these significant results in building soil organic matter, Dr. Johnson says the microbial community must be balanced. The microbes cycle carbon, improve carbon use efficiency, and create a healthy soil system. Plowing and the use of biocides destroy fungal populations, so those need to be restored in order for soils to function appropriately. John references a slide in one of Dr. Johnson's presentations comparing fungal to bacterial biomass ratios and the partitioning of the photosynthates. The explanation is based on an experiment with compost made in the BEAM bioreactor, where fungal dominant soils were shown to utilize five times the amount of carbon in the plants than bacterial dominant soils. An average of 11% of carbon captured by a plant goes into the root, shoot, or fruit of the plant in most agricultural systems today, but in a fungal dominant soil, 55% of the captured carbon can be partitioned into the plant rather than into the soil. This can dramatically affect plant productivity and growth. Maximum productivity and carbon capture happen when the fungal to bacterial ratio is one to one, which also causes soil respiration to decrease. There can be increased crop biomass as well as more organic matter in the soil. Dr. Johnson notices that as fungal populations in the soil are restored, farmers are often happier. About 60% of a crop must be left to effectively rebuild the soil even after the soil microbes are in balance, rather than 100% removal. Balanced Systems (00:27:00) Dr. Johnson explains that having the right microbes is a necessary first step towards building soil health, but is not the complete solution. The compost his team uses as an inoculant has over 2,500 species of bacteria and over 400 species of fungi, archaea, viruses, and more. That is a balanced community of varied microbes. The energy flow and carbon flow is also critical, and the photosynthetic rate must be increased. All of those work together to make a much more efficient, restored system. When the soil biology is in balance, the microbes can make the elemental nutrients available for the plant. That takes out the human guesswork of trying to figure out how much of each nutrient is needed. In a corn trial, the amount of applied nitrogen was decreased to 15%, or about 37 lb. per acre, and two lb. of compost per acre were added. The result was a small decrease in productivity in the first year and $80 more an acre in profits. Although only 37 lb. of nitrogen per acre were applied, 261 units of nitrogen were measured in the soil, compared to the control of 256 lb. of nitrogen. The nitrogen was made available from the soil system rather than as a purchased input. Dr. Johnson believes that healthy soil biology leads to a resilient system. He has seen dramatic changes in water absorption and retention when cover crops are used and soil biology is improved. In compacted soil, it took 10 minutes for an inch of water to infiltrate, and it now takes only seconds for that same inch of water. The first 1% increase in soil carbon is associated with a five times increase in the amount of water the soil can hold. Agriculture currently uses 70 to 80% of the freshwater on the planet, but utilizing these methods can double crop productivity and save water. Importance of Observation (00:43:00)Dr. Johnson explains that the information he has discussed so far was not the primary goal of his research. He was seeking a way to compost dairy manure, and his research serendipitously led him to this information. He believes that holding on to traditional methodologies is an obstacle, and that the farming of the future must be based on regular observation and be open to change. Farming for 40 years provides 40 different experiences, so paying close attention is the best way to improve. Resources he recommends include Chico's Center for Regenerative Agriculture, John Kempf's blog, Gabe Brown, Ray Archuleta, Allen Williams, and Will Harris. His final thought for listeners is to look at soils as a living organism, pay close attention to biology, utilize observation, and to transition to a system of regenerative agriculture to rebuild the soils. Dr. Johnson has seen that it's possible to rebuild soils and that it has the ability to make farming fun again. Resources: Dr. Johnson's Bio Chico Center for Regenerative Agriculture and Resilient Systems John Kempf's Blog Gabe Brown's Ranch Understanding Ag, Ray Archuleta, Gabe Brown, Allen Williams Will Harris Dr. Johnson's Research Paper "Development of soil microbial communities for promoting sustainability in agriculture and a global carbon fix" Dr. Johnson's Seminar at Chico State with referenced slide at 23:00

In this podcast, Zach Bush and John discuss the impact of glyphosate on health, including its link to cancer and gut microbiome damage. They explore solutions for reversing chronic diseases through nutrition and the importance of regenerative agriculture. The conversation also touches on the rise of food allergies and asthma in children, the critical connection between soil health and global survival, and the toxic effects of pesticides on human health.

In this episode of the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, John interviews Joel Salatin, a well-known lecturer and author and the co-owner of Polyface Farms in Swoope, Virginia. Polyface Farms is a "diversified, grass-based, beyond organic, direct marketing farm". Joel is well-known for his highly engaging public speaking style and is the author of twelve books relating his experience as a self-described 'lunatic farmer'. In this episode of the podcast, we visit the challenges of mainstream, conventional agriculture through Joel's paradigm-shifting lens, and learn why farmers are beginning to shift to a regenerative model. Joel also describes how farmers can learn the skills of marketing, communications, and public speaking, and broaches the uncomfortable topic of planning for farm inheritance and succession. Joel's worldview, informed by both real-world experience and immersion in a broad range of literature from philosophy, history, and religion, to current events and business, forms the foundation of his farming practices. Joel states that deep soils were not built with 10-10-10 chemical fertilizer, but rather built with real-time solar energy converted to carbon and vegetation that rots or is eaten and manured in place. Joel describes why he does not believe such organizations as McDonald's or Monsanto are evil, but rather thinks they have misguided beliefs concerning ecological systems and food production. Most often, employees at these organizations truly believe they are helping the world. While their understanding of agricultural processes is wrong, they are not ill-intentioned. The ability to understand the opposition is an important skill Joel developed in high school debate tournaments that helps him to build bridges with those who see agriculture differently than he does. Joel and John discuss how most farmers desire to better their land and none have the intention to degrade the soil. Yet, many farmers continue to practice mainstream agriculture with its soil-degrading effects. Joel explains that for farmers to change their practices, often they need to face a crisis. He describes how the symbol for "crisis" in Japanese is the same as the symbol for "opportunity". He sees crises as an opportunity for farmers to move towards more productive, regenerative practices. Joel also describes how we can elicit broader societal change to where regenerative farmers are viewed as the heroes within their communities. The benchmark of success most used in farming is yield. Farmers also consider equipment and infrastructure as benchmarks of success. Joel's take is that neither of these are a determinant of financial success or farm profitability. He relates an anecdote from his early years when his father, a tax preparer for the neighboring farming operations, mentioned that their own threadbare family farm was more financially stable than those farmers with large and fancy equipment and expensive facilities. Joel believes the mantra that farmers must feed the world is a fallacy that encourages detrimental practices and unsustainable agriculture. The coronavirus pandemic has sharply defined the need for communities to be able to feed themselves and has placed a spotlight on the drawbacks of the current centralized system. Joel describes his belief in an intelligent creator who has loaned the world to us as an investment. In his words, no investor would accept dead zones, pollution, and species extinction. Thus, it is our responsibility to improve the land and help it become more fertile year after year. Seeing the world as an investment helps people to treat it well rather than deplete its resources for unsustainable growth. The dysfunction of the current system is evidenced by the statistic that small-scale agriculture produces 70% of the global food supply with 30% of the inputs while the other 30% of the food supply is produced using 70% of the inputs. Joel makes the distinction that the size of a farming operation is not a determining factor in how regenerative or sustainable that farm can be. Rather, the sustainability of a farm can be rated on how centralized the operation is. He describes the growth of Polyface Farm as growth by duplication, rather than centralization. Although his farm is considered a large farm by the USDA, it has a small-farm feel partly due to his method of decentralizing 100,000 chickens in 300 field shelters on pasture rather than concentrating them in two giant poultry houses. He considers the ecological carrying capacity of the land when expanding, ensuring the land can absorb the livestock manure. Decentralized systems are much more resilient and much less smelly than concentrated, centralized systems. Although he cannot predict the future, Joel is certain that building healthy soil will stand the test of time. He emphasizes that an agricultural system of the future must be integrated, regionally focused, and full of complex relationships, and that it will be human and soil oriented. Joel describes the profitability of growing corn versus a grass-fed beef production. Land that grows 100 bushels an acre of corn would produce grass that could support 400 cow days per year. He calculates that, no matter the price of cattle, there is approximately $300 per acre net profit for grass-fed beef, a profit never realized by corn farmers. However, very few of the farmers have actually shifted their production. That is because it is difficult for humans to make such a large change and admit to themselves that a new method could be better than their current practices. Farmer's identities are based around what they grow and how they grow it, so it is very challenging for change to occur. The truth, though, is that farmers must adapt or die. It may require a new generation of farmers for the needed change to happen. Joel raises the uncomfortable topic of farm succession. Estate planning is especially difficult for farmers due to their love for the land. The average age of a farmer today is 65, so about 50% of America's farmland will shift in ownership in the next 15 years. At the same time, there are many young people hoping to enter the sector. While Joel has explored ways to connect young people with aging farmers who are looking for a successor, he also enforces the value of low-capital and mobile systems to help young people get started. The average American farm has $4.00 of depreciable equity for $1.00 in annual gross sales. At Polyface Farms, this ratio is $0.50 to $1.00. This more nimble style of agriculture requires no land equity, as mobile systems can be placed on land not owned by the farmer. Low-capital systems are becoming very important as young people gain the necessary experience, skills, and knowledge to start up a successful farming venture. The practice of equal inheritance of farmland is a concept Joel discourages. His view is that farmland should be inherited by the person who has been stewarding the land. When the child who stayed home and held the farm together is given an equal inheritance with their siblings who pursued other careers, they must buy out their siblings to keep the farm which is an unfair burden. These conversations often don't happen, but they are necessary for families to have. As Joel jokes, "Why should I die on my tractor so my kids can run off to Las Vegas with my money?" This episode is a long conversation examining the importance of being well-informed and focusing on soil health and profitability above yields. Listen to gain a better understanding of the future of agriculture and what it will take to get there. Resources:Joel's Bio Support For This Show This show is brought to you by AEA, helping professional growers make more money using regenerative agriculture since 2006. If you grow on a large scale and are looking to increase crop revenue and quality, email hello@advancingecoag.com or call 800-495-6603 to be connected with a dedicated AEA crop consultant.

In this episode of the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, John interviews Dr. Rattan Lal, an acclaimed soil scientist, researcher, and author. Dr. Lal has published hundreds of journal articles on soil ecosystems, effects of tillage, global food security, sequestering carbon in the soil, and more. In the early 1990s, Dr. Lal was a pioneer of the now mainstream idea that healthy soils are a defense against rising levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, leading groundbreaking research in Africa and later in South America. After a long and storied career, he is currently the Director of the CFAES Carbon Management and Sequestration Center, where he works with graduate students to research soil carbon sequestration and climate change. In this episode of the podcast, Dr. Lal provides an in-depth description of the function of carbon. Carbon is the determinant of healthy soil. As Dr. Lal describes, the reason that soil life is much more diverse in healthy soil is because organic carbon is the food for soil organisms. Thus, the healthier the soil, the higher the percentage of organic carbon, providing more diverse populations with the ability to thrive. This is also why, if crop residue isn't returned to the soil frequently, the soil organisms will starve and the soil will eventually die. By dying, Dr. Lal means the soil will no longer contain enough living organisms to carry on the biogeochemical and biogeophysical processes needed for healthy plant growth. Dr. Lal outlines the concentrations of organic carbon in the soil, which should be approximately 2% in the top 8 to 12 inches. Maintaining this level of soil carbon is essential for water retention and for controlling soil erosion and leaching. It's also critical for nutrient cycling and improved soil structure. Dr. Lal states that CNPK should be the slogan for the application of elements, rather than NPK because carbon is such a critical component of a healthy soil system. Dr. Lal details how carbon is essential for the utilization of the nutrients in the soil, whether they are native or applied, and illustrates the management of soil carbon levels by describing it in similar terms to managing a bank account. In a bank account, the goal is to increase the savings, and therefore what is deposited into the bank must always be more than what is withdrawn from the bank. Soil is exactly the same way. If we want the organic matter to increase in the soil, what we put in as a biomass carbon must be more than what is taken out. We lose carbon from the soil for four different reasons. These reasons are erosion, leaching, decomposition, and volatilization. It's important to know the amount of carbon loss happening from the soil so we can add a sufficient amount of biomass carbon back to the soil. The efficiency of humidification is about 15-20%, meaning the carbon added into the soil after harvest is 15 -20% of the original biomass after one year. Dr. Lal says that the ratio of carbon to nitrogen in corn or wheat residue is approximately 80:100, while the carbon to nitrogen ratio of humus is 12:15. That means the humus is more enriched in nitrogen, phosphorus, and sulfur. Therefore, to make the most efficient use of the added biomass, microbes need nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur, and other elements to transform the residue carbon into humus carbon. In an experiment on Dr. Lal's current Columbus, OH research farm, he developed four plots with 4, 8, 12, or 16 tons of biomass per hectare respectively. He then cut each plot into two and added extra nitrogen and phosphorus on the one side of the plot and no additional nutrients on the other side. The results showed the percentage of residue converted into stable humus is substantially increased when extra nitrogen, phosphorus, and other nutrients are added then when there are none. Dr. Lal also describes his thoughts on providing farmers with compensation for ecosystem services. As a society, we could ask farmers to provide services to the global community such as carbon sequestration and the improvement of water quality. Dr. Lal believes society should be willing to compensate farmers for these services. He describes how he's calculated the cost farmers should be paid and has determined a baseline of $16 per acre per year by calculating in terms of tons of carbon and the worth of that carbon ($125 per ton) sequestered in soil as organic matter. Dr. Lal's outlined system of ecosystem services is not similar to a subsidy but is rather a payment earned for services performed. Dr. Lal also describes the necessity of passing a Healthy Soil Act. Similar to the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts, the Healthy Soil Act would be critically important to human health and to the slowing of climate change. Dr. Lal believes the passage of this act is especially critical because of the impact soil has on both air and water. Soil is the link between the atmosphere, the environment, plants, animals, and people. This episode is densely packed with information about soil health and how to achieve it, not only for farmers but also for policymakers and educators. As Dr. Lal says in his closing remarks, "Agriculture, if done properly, has to be a solution to environmental issues." Resources: Dr. Rattan Lal, Soil Rock Star Societal Value of Soil Carbon journal article Rights of Soil journal article Support For This Show This show is brought to you by AEA, helping professional growers make more money using regenerative agriculture since 2006. If you grow on a large scale and are looking to increase crop revenue and quality, email hello@advancingecoag.com or call 800-495-6603 to be connected with a dedicated AEA crop consultant.

In this episode of the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, John Kempf interviews Ray Archuleta, an outspoken proponent of healthy soil systems and the founder of Understanding Ag and the Soil Health Academy. Ray has spent decades working in conservation agriculture and, in this episode, he describes his journey from seeing nature as a competitive entity, in which all else should be killed in order for the desired crop to survive, to his understanding today that nature thrives on diversity and collaboration. Ray describes how new science and technology have identified many examples of collaboration in agroecology, like arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi, which share water resources and transport energy and nutrients from organism to organism. Even under stress conditions, these microbes provide water to the plant, an example of nature sharing resources rather than competing. He provides examples of research that illustrate fields with a diversity of species showing greater resilience and yields than monoculture plantings. Ray attended graduate school at New Mexico State University, after which he served as a livestock specialist in the Peace Corps and then as a conservation agronomist with the NRCS. During Ray's early years working in conservation agriculture, he started asking difficult questions: "Why is sediment the number one water quality problem in the nation? Why does it take so many acres to make a living?" Through these questions and more, reading books such as Allan Savory's Holistic Management, and coming to Gabe Brown's ranch in 2007, Ray had revelatory moments, realizing that robust soil ecology is the key to solving many of the challenges plaguing farms today. On Gabe's farm, Ray observed an ideal example of a thriving ecology. When he realized the crops had received no support from nitrogen or chemical fertility applications, he began to dig deep, looking for research that would explain how this ecosystem was working. What he found was that nature thrives when collaborations between compatible organisms are fostered, illustrated not only in agronomic studies such as Brown University's paper on Stress Gradient Hypothesis but also in the real-world operations of early-adopting farmers. John and Ray describe the collaboration taking place between plants, microbes, and bacteria in a healthy ecosystem as descriptive of a larger collaboration between farmers who are practicing these methods and sharing their information with other growers. Ray describes his own journey from viewing farming as drudgery to learning how the relationship between the living organisms works and feeling like he was a part of that relationship. The conversation takes a deep dive into this farmer-soil-plant relationship, providing growers with the history of the soil health movement, the roles that policy, society, and agriculture play in the broader global health context, and the encouraging view on the vast gains that have been made in the field of soil health since the beginning of Ray's career as a soil conservationist thirty years ago. Resources: Understanding Ag The Soil Health Academy The Stress Gradient Hypothesis Holistic Management by Allan Savory Gabe Brown's Ranch Support For This Show This show is brought to you by AEA, helping professional growers make more money using regenerative agriculture since 2006. If you grow on a large scale and are looking to increase crop revenue and quality, email hello@advancingecoag.com or call 800-495-6603 to be connected with a dedicated AEA crop consultant.