Cross & Gavel Podcast

In the last few years, Artificial Intelligence (AI) has become a household name, slowly creeping into the corners of every technological device we've all grown to depend on. But what happens if the underlying training data and the people training the models perpetuate the common biases that we all from time to time commit against our neighbors—whether intentionally or not. That is the focus of our conversation today. Joining us is Sonia Gipson Rankin, whose 2024 paper, Mitigating Algorithmic Bias: Strategies for Addressing Discrimination in Data, serves as a jumping off point for this discussion. Sonia is a legal scholar and educator whose work combines her background in computer science with her passion for legal justice. She teaches in the fields of Torts, Family Law, Technology and the Law, and Introduction to Lawyering at the University of New Mexico School of Law. She is also Affiliated Faculty in the Department of Africana Studies. Full bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

The John Witte, Jr. Lecture Series on Christianity & Law is back! A new venture from Christian Legal Society aimed at advancing the conversation surrounding the integration of Christianity & law. In our third lecture inspired by the Düsseldorf School of painting, we discuss law, family, and religion in late antiquity. Our keynote is Dr. Maria Doerfler, an Associate Professor of Late Antiquity at the Yale University's Department of Religious Studies. Before joining the Yale faculty, she held the position of Assistant Professor of Christianity in Late Antiquity at Duke Divinity School, as well as serving as director of the Duke/UNC Center for Late Ancient Studies. Her work focuses on the interpretation of authoritative texts, of law, philosophical writings, and scripture, in the second through sixth centuries C.E., with particular emphasis on how contexts of personal or communal crisis shape exegesis. She was joined by Elizabeth Kirk for a period of Q&A after the lecture. Elizabeth is the Co-Director of the Center for Law & the Human Person and an Assistant Professor at the Columbus School of Law. To listen to the full event and see all of the illustrations, click here. A Special Thanks to the event sponsor: Trinity Law School.

Many who discuss political theology run to the likes of Augustine or Aquinas to explain the ways their minds express the world and treat its people. And while those thinkers are profound and helpful, the idea of political theology carries a lifeblood that invites Christians to think creatively about its seams and the ways it informs and binds our common connections. That is why I'm excited to produce this conversation with Vincent Lloyd, who co-authored a recent book entitled What Is Political Theology (Columbia University Press 2026) that touches on the multifaceted concepts of political theology and what it means today. Vincent and I discuss the meaning of the term and its scandals, the idea of domination that undergirds his writing, the way academics and activists work together on advancing a political theology from below, and so much more. This is a dense episode: for those who listen 1.2x speed, you've been warned! Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

One of the most difficult issues to solve is the careful balance of criminal reform with the punitive aims of state power. While most of us don't want to needless lock up our neighbors, we are also in favor of the systematic creation of spaces of safety for our families and friends. But with underlying aims of justice comes the sins of man's overreach in search of solutions. Alas, enters mass incarceration. I talk today about this pervasive problem through the lenses of Christian Realism. My guest once again is Jeff Baker, the first Associate Dean of Experiential Learning and Clinical Professor of Law at the University of Alabama School of Law. His scholarship focuses on issues of human rights and dignity, social justice, legal education, and ethics, at the intersections of law, theology, jurisprudence, and public policy. Full bio. His paper, Christian Realism and The Sins of Mass Incarceration, is a clarion call for applying ethical lawyering to issues of present concern. We discuss what is mass incarceration, how it's connected to financial incentives, ways we come to appreciate the prisoner as an image bearer, and so much more. [NOTE: A few other conversations I've had along this topic includes the history of law and order, reforming criminal justice, prison abolition, second chances, and prison ministry.] Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento

One of the things that we at Christian Legal Society constantly implore law students to do is to think about what sort of lawyer they want to be. Yes, we want them to be successful, but more than that, we want them to bear witness to the grace of God and to manifest His character across the legal profession. My conversation today provides a much needed resource for those looking to develop their reputation as Christian lawyers and for those hoping to make a positive difference in the lives of those they encounter. My guest is Jeff Baker, the first Associate Dean of Experiential Learning and Clinical Professor of Law at the University of Alabama School of Law. His scholarship focuses on issues of human rights and dignity, social justice, legal education, and ethics, at the intersections of law, theology, jurisprudence, and public policy. Full bio. His paper, A Sermon on the Law, is a clarion call for ethical lawyering on behalf of the marginalized and oppressed. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

Our first episode of the year takes us to Dayton, Ohio, where under the auspices of the Montgomery County Common Pleas Court sits the Kushinda Court ("the Court") under the vision and direction of the Honorable Gerald Parker. This Court is part of the wider strategy to create specialized dockets that allow for a therapeutic approach to law. My guest is Judge Parker, who talks to me about his journey to the Court, his vision for the Court, and how his faith plays a role in the ministry he performs. Judge Parker was elected to the Common Pleas Court Bench, General Division, in November of 2018, taking office in early January of 2019. He serves on the Offender Supervision and Security Committee. Judge Parker received his B.A. from Georgetown College (KY) in 2004 and his J.D. from Salmon P. Chase College of Law at Northern Kentucky University in 2007. From 2007 to 2011, he was an Assistant Montgomery County Prosecuting Attorney spending a majority of his time on felony dockets. In 2012, Judge Parker joined the civil litigation team with the Dayton firm of Dyer, Garofalo Mann and Schultz. He would then be appointed as juvenile magistrate for Montgomery County Juvenile Court in 2016. I have written more on the Kushinda Court here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

One of the chief affections we as humans should pursue along with truth and virtue is the appreciation for beauty. As lawyers, we are uniquely predisposed to ignoring this element of human life for want of loveliness in our work and in the people we come across. My discussion today is an attempt to rethink the Christian attorney's relationship with beauty. My guest has written a seminal work (here) on the importance of beauty in the law, providing an essential primer for inquiring minds committed to the common good. Mark Fowler is a practicing lawyer whose specialist areas of advice include the law applying to not-for-profit organisations, income tax exempt institutions, charities and deductible gift recipients. He has advised a wide range of schools and other educational institutions, international aid organizations, charitable housing associations, benevolent institutions, disability service providers, peak bodies, arts and cultural organizations and religious organizations. For more. Happy New Years! Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

The question of natural law continues to come up in the context of Christian jurisprudence, and for good reason. It is a topic both fascinating and formative, touching on topics as vast as the origins of the American constitutional experiment, human vulnerability, and modern society. And so with the new book from Alex Deagon (here) on the interaction of Christian natural law and religious freedom, I get an opportunity to learn something new on this mysterious topic. Alex and I talk about his intellectual journey, the shaping of his thesis, the meaning and application of natural law, the importance of religious freedom, and more. Alex is an Associate Professor in the School of Law, Queensland University of Technology. He is an international expert in religious freedom and the author of From Violence to Peace (2017) and Reconciling Freedom and Discrimination (2023). Full bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

All year, we've witnessed in America a law enforcement presence dedicated to a single mission: mass deportation. While initially this mission was centered on the eradication of dangerous criminals, those now detained with no criminal history has outpaced those with convictions or pending criminal charges. The stories have been saddening and legally complex, leaving Christians with a tension between the mandates of "loving the foreigner in our midst" and the respect we owe to the ruling authorities appointed by God. A tension that cannot be broken by partisanship or by reducing this multifaceted issue to a binary designation of legal vs. illegal. In today's episode, I talk to two World Relief staff members working in this area about the state of things in our country in an effort to continue my own education and to show just how complicated this all is. Ted Oswald and Anna Colby are both attorneys with World Relief's Immigration Legal Services helping immigrants and refugees in the Sacramento area. (You can find some of Anna's writing here.) Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

In 2010, the Supreme Court issued a consequential opinion that stifled the freedom of association across countless campuses when it came to religious groups. In CLS v. Martinez, in a divided 5-4 opinion, the Court opened the way for universities to limit group association by refusing to grant them power to elect those leaders best suited to carry on that group's mission and purpose. In a forthcoming article (here) in the Texas Review of Law and Politics, my guest today, Benjamin Fleshman, covers the infamous Martinez decision and the problem it created for student organizations across the country. Given the closeness of this topic to my own work, we discuss in some detail the infamous "all comers" policy (see this and this) still upheld in some law schools, e.g., UC-Berkeley (see this), nature of student organizations, the importance of recent Supreme Court decisions (see recent FCA en banc decision in the Ninth Circuit and then the other mentioned FCA case in Washington, D.C.), the recent attempts to strengthen group access (see this), and more. Benjamin joined The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty as Counsel in 2023. His work there focuses on appellate litigation in both state and federal courts. Prior to joining Becket, Ben worked as an associate at Shearman & Sterling in Washington, D.C., where he practiced antitrust law and complex commercial litigation. Before entering private practice, he served as a law clerk to Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Full bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.