The Deconstructionists

This episode steps back and asks a harder question:What has the church done in moments like this before—and what does faithfulness actually require now?We begin with church history, tracing how Christians have repeatedly been asked to bless state violence in the name of order and safety. We examine how labels like “criminal,” “terrorist,” and “threat” have historically been used to short-circuit moral responsibility.We then turn to Scripture—not as proof texts, but as story—allowing the biblical narrative to confront modern assumptions about power, violence, and the stranger.Topics coveredHistorical patterns of Christian complicity with state violenceWhy labels matter more than we thinkFalse equivalence arguments (“what about…”)Why due process is a moral issueJesus, the stranger, and state powerWhy faith rooted in the margins looks differentScripture referencedExodus 22:21Leviticus 19:33–34Deuteronomy 10:18–19Isaiah 1Amos 5Micah 6:8Luke 10:25–37Matthew 25:31–46Matthew 26:52John 18–19Romans 12–13 (read together, not selectively)Historical & analytical resourcesMigration Policy Institute — Immigration & Enforcement Analysishttps://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/explainersTransactional Records Access Clearinghousehttps://tracreports.orgReflection questionWho are we being asked to look away from—and what does that cost our faith?Support the Show — Join Our PatreonWe’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.Subscribers get access to:Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversationsIf you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.orgSpecial music provided by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

A close look at escalating ICE operations, verified incidents, and failures in post-shooting protocols. A clear walk-through of legal limits, bystander recording rights, and why due process matters. A deep dive into confirmation bias, moral shortcuts, and how fear shapes public narratives. A reflective parable urging empathy, accountability, and careful listening.

Episode DescriptionIn Part Two of our conversation with Alexander Shaia, we move beyond theory and into practice—exploring what spiritual transformation actually looks like in real life.In Part One, we traced the foundations of Dr. Shaia’s work and why his approach to the Gospels resonates so deeply with people navigating faith, doubt, and deconstruction. In this episode, we go deeper—into lived experience, inner change, and the courage it takes to move forward when certainty falls away.Dr. Shaia shares how spiritual frameworks are meant to form us, not control us, and why the Christian tradition—at its best—has always been about movement, growth, and becoming. This conversation speaks especially to those who feel stuck between belief and disbelief, longing for a faith that can hold both honesty and hope.About Our GuestAlexander Shaia is a theologian, speaker, and author best known for his work on the transformational structure of the Gospels. His book, Heart and Mind, explores the fourfold journey found within the Christian tradition and presents a compelling alternative to rigid, belief-based models of faith.Dr. Shaia’s work has become especially meaningful for those who are deconstructing inherited belief systems while still seeking depth, wisdom, and spiritual grounding.Education:Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, CA, 1991Graduate Certificate, Pastoral Psychotherapy, University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, WA, 1982Master of Religious Education, Seattle University, Seattle, WA, 1981M.A., Counseling Education, University of Alabama in Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, 1976B.A., Cultural Anthropology, University of Notre Dame du lac, Notre Dame, IN, 1974Jungian and Sandplay Studies, 1973 - Current; month intensive with Dora M. Kalff – Jungian analyst & originator of Sandplay, Zollikon, Switzerland, July/August 1989Psychosynthesis Certificate, Psychosynthesis Training Institute, San Francisco, CA, Two year training, 1986-1988 Website: www.quadratos.org Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/quadratos/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Quadratos1/featuredFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlexanderJohnShaia/Support the ShowIf you’d like to help support The Deconstructionists Podcast and go deeper with the kinds of conversations we’re having here, check out our brand-new Patreon. Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast🎧 Book of the Month Club is back📚 Educational resources & study guides available for anyone supporting the show at $5/month or more—less than the price of most Starbucks drinks💛 Your support helps keep the show independent and sustainableListen & ConnectSubscribe wherever you get your podcastsFollow us on social media for clips and updatesShare this episode with someone navigating faith, doubt, or transitionWebsite: www.thedeconstructionists.org Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Dr. Alexander Shaia, a theologian and expert on ancient Christian wisdom, shares profound insights for those struggling with the holiday season. He emphasizes the importance of slowing down and honoring emotional complexities rather than rushing for resolution. Discussing the fourfold Gospel model, Shaia connects spiritual transformation with facing challenges and embracing hope during dark times. He advocates for a nonenemy ethic, encouraging compassion and understanding in our divisions, fostering a sense of belonging and renewal.

Episode Summary:Part 2 of our conversation with philosopher and friend of the show Peter Rollins goes even deeper into the psychological, existential, and communal dynamics of faith and identity. If Part 1 set the stage, Part 2 pulls the curtain all the way back.This is one of those conversations that lingers. It’s dense, it’s provocative, and it’s full of the kind of insights that Pete has become known for all around the world.Resources & References:Peter Rollins’ official website: https://peterrollins.comPyrotheology gatherings, seminars, and resourcesPeter’s books and lectures on belief, identity, and desireConnect With Us:Website: www.thedeconstructionists.orgInstagram: @deconstructionistspodcastEmail: deconstructionistspodcast@gmail.comIf you enjoyed this two-part conversation, share it with a friend and tag us on social media.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode Summary:In this long-awaited return to the podcast, philosopher, storyteller, and longtime friend of the show Peter Rollins joins us for a rich, mind-bending conversation about faith, identity, and the transformative potential of doubt. Peter was one of our earliest guests and someone who understood the heart of this podcast from day one. After far too much time away, he’s back — and this conversation does not disappoint.In Part 1, we dig into some of the themes Peter has become known for: embracing uncertainty, challenging religious narratives that promise certainty or comfort, and exploring how belief functions psychologically and communally. One of the biggest takeaways in this episode is Peter’s insight into Communion vs. community — a deeply fascinating reframing of what spiritual connection actually is and what it isn’t.Whether you’ve been following Pete’s work for years or you’re encountering him for the first time, this episode is packed with ideas that will challenge, encourage, and maybe even unsettle you (in the best way).Resources & References:Peter Rollins’ official website: https://peterrollins.comBooks by Peter Rollins, including The Idolatry of God, The Divine Magician, and How (Not) to Speak of GodPyrotheology community and eventsConnect With Us:Website: www.thedeconstructionists.orgInstagram: @deconstructionistspodcastEmail: deconstructionistspodcast@gmail.comStay tuned for updated Patreon tiers launching soon!Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

🎉 We’ve Launched a Brand New Patreon!After years of letting our old Patreon quietly collect dust, we’re excited to officially announce that The Deconstructionists Podcast now has a fully rebuilt Patreon — with brand new tiers, fresh content, and one beloved classic perk we kept just for you.This podcast has always been — and still is — 100% independent. We cover the costs out of pocket, not because it’s easy, but because we believe in the conversations we’re having and in the community that’s grown around this work. Your emails, messages, and stories are what keep us going.✨ What’s New on Patreon?Brand new Patreon hubUpdated support tiersLong-form educational video contentExtended versions of topics you may have seen on TikTokResources and references to go deeperAnd more exclusive content on the wayThe short-form clips you see on social media are just the beginning — on Patreon, we take the time to slow down, provide full context, and really explore the questions beneath the surface.❤️ Thank YouWhether you’re a brand new supporter or someone who’s been with us for years, we cannot thank you enough. As we approach our 10-year anniversary, we have some special surprises planned to celebrate with you.🔗 How to JoinYou can support the show and join our Patreon:Through the link here: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcastOr on our website at thedeconstructionists.orgMore interviews, deeper dives, and exciting new content are already in the works for the year ahead.Thank you for being part of this journey with us.— The Deconstructionists PodcastAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode SummaryIn this deep-dive episode, we explore one of the most influential — and controversial — doctrines in the history of Christianity: Original Sin.For many of us, Original Sin was presented as a foundational truth. We were told it explained everything wrong with humanity: our impulses, our desires, our bodies, our failures. But where did this idea actually come from? How did early Christian communities understand human nature? And how did one interpretation, shaped by the life and worldview of Augustine, grow into a theological framework that still impacts psychology, sexuality, gender, and modern Christian identity?This episode unpacks the text, the history, the cultural influences, and the lasting consequences of the doctrine — and invites listeners to reconsider what it means to be human, good, flawed, and beloved.In This Episode, We Explore:📜 1. What Is Original Sin?The doctrine as many of us inherited itWhy it came to dominate Western ChristianityHow it differs from concepts of sin in early Jewish and early Christian thought👤 2. Augustine’s InfluenceAugustine’s life, trauma, and worldview — and how each shaped his theologyHow his readings of Paul became the backbone of Original SinWhere he diverges from earlier Christian writers and the Greek Fathers📖 3. The Biblical Passages Used to Support Original SinRomans 5 and its contested interpretationsGenesis 3 as story versus doctrineHow translation choices influenced meaningWhy Jewish interpretations of the same texts are radically different🔍 4. The Theology Behind the TheologyHow ideas about sex, bodies, and desire shaped the doctrineShame vs. guilt — and how Western Christianity confused the twoThe psychological cost of believing we are “born broken”⛪ 5. What Early Christians Actually BelievedA look at diversity in early Christian thoughtEastern Christian views on sin, growth, and human potentialHow the doctrine evolved over centuries, not overnight💔 6. The Modern ImpactHow Original Sin shaped purity cultureHow it influenced sermons, parenting, and “Christian counseling”Its role in reinforcing fundamentalism’s fear-based frameworksWhy many of us internalized shame as spirituality🌱 7. Reclaiming a Healthier View of HumanityAlternatives rooted in scripture and traditionWhy many theologians argue the doctrine is not essentialWhat happens when we start from belovedness rather than brokennessWhy This Episode MattersSo many deconstruction journeys begin with questions like:“Am I really this messed up, or did I just inherit a harmful framework?”“Is the human story fundamentally about failure?”“Why does the church talk about sin more than love?”Understanding where the doctrine of Original Sin came from — and how historically recent and culturally shaped it actually is — can be freeing. It opens the door to new ways of understanding ourselves, our bodies, our past, and our future.It also challenges the narrative that progressive or post-evangelical Christians are the ones “not taking the Bible seriously.” In reality, reassessing the doctrine through context, language, and scholarship is exactly what taking scripture seriously looks like.Resources Mentioned / Recommended ReadingThe Birth of Satan – Pagels & B. McGinnThe Sin of Certainty – Peter EnnsThe Evolution of Adam – Peter EnnsThe Story of Original Sin – John E. ToewsSin: A History – Gary A. AndersonWritings of Augustine, especially Confessions and On the Merits and Forgiveness of SinsConnect & Share Your ThoughtsHave a topic you’d love to hear explored in 2026?Reach out anytime:Website: www.thedeconstructionists.orgEmail: deconstructionistspodcast@gmail.comInstagram/TikTok: @deconstructionistspodcast Want to support the show?The Patreon relaunch is coming early next year with new tiers and some returning favorites. Thank you to everyone already supporting — it truly makes the work possible.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode OverviewIn this second half of John’s conversation with Pastor Joe Ingle, we continue exploring the deeply human, often heartbreaking realities of prison ministry — particularly Joe’s decades of work with individuals on death row.If Part 1 introduced the calling and contours of his work, Part 2 steps fully into the emotional, spiritual, and ethical complexities of walking with people whom society has condemned and often forgotten. Joe shares stories from his time working with incarcerated individuals, the end-of-life moments he has witnessed, the failures and blind spots of our justice system, and the surprising ways grace and humanity still break through in the darkest circumstances.This is not a conversation about abstract theology or distant policy — it’s about presence, dignity, and the costly practice of seeing people when no one else does.In This Episode, We Explore:👉 Joe’s experiences accompanying individuals through their final days and hours👉 What capital punishment looks like from the inside — spiritually, emotionally, and practically👉 The toll this work takes on families, communities, and those who minister in these spaces👉 How systemic failures and racial inequities shape incarceration and sentencing👉 The difficult conversations Joe has had with death row inmates — and the moments that stay with him👉 The theological and moral implications of state-sanctioned execution👉 Why Joe believes presence, not answers, is the most powerful form of ministry👉 How his experiences have shaped his own understanding of justice, mercy, and the GospelWhy This Conversation MattersPastor Joe’s work forces us to confront the human cost of our justice system — not through statistics or talking points, but through stories of real people with real families, real trauma, and real hope.His ministry challenges us to consider:What does justice actually mean?What does mercy look like when lives hang in the balance?What does faith ask of us when the systems around us fail?And how do we honor the humanity of those our society has discarded?These questions aren’t easy — but they’re necessary. And Joe brings decades of lived experience to help us wrestle with them.About Pastor Joe InglePastor Joe Ingle is a long-time prison minister, author, activist, and advocate for people on death row. For decades he has been a steady presence for individuals facing execution, providing pastoral care, support, and companionship in some of the most difficult circumstances imaginable. His work has shaped national conversations on criminal justice reform and continues to call the Church toward deeper compassion and accountability.Listen to Part 1If you missed the first half of this conversation — including the origin of Joe’s calling and the stories that shaped his approach to justice — be sure to listen to Part 1.Support the ShowIf this episode resonates with you, you can help support the podcast by:🔥 Leaving a 5-star review🔥 Sharing this episode with a friend🔥 Following us on social media🔥 Subscribing so you don’t miss future interviewsYour support helps new listeners find the show and keeps conversations like this possible.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this long-awaited and nearly lost conversation, John sits down with Pastor Joe Ingle, a longtime prison minister, advocate, and spiritual companion to people on death row. Joe’s work challenges our assumptions about justice, punishment, compassion, and what it means to show up for people society has thrown away.This interview was recorded last year and was almost lost forever when the laptop it was saved on died unexpectedly. Miraculously, the file was recovered just in time — and we are finally able to share Part 1 of this important two-part conversation.Following our recent episode with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, who offered insight into spiritual care within the military, Joe continues our exploration of ministry in difficult, often unseen places — where grief, hope, and humanity collide in profound ways.In This EpisodeIn Part 1, we cover:Joe’s early call to prison ministryHow he became involved with individuals facing executionWhat it actually looks like to walk with someone on death rowThe spiritual, emotional, and human complexities of prison chaplaincyHow society frames “criminals” — and what we miss when we refuse to see their humanityThe cost of compassion, and why Joe refuses to turn awayWhy faith traditions often struggle to handle justice and mercy wellThe surprising places Joe has seen grace show up behind barsWhy This Conversation MattersJoe’s work invites us to confront just how uncomfortable — and necessary — compassion can be. His stories shine light on systems we rarely see and raise hard questions about accountability, punishment, redemption, and what Christian faith looks like when lived out in the shadows.For listeners who appreciated our recent conversation with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, Joe’s perspective provides a powerful complement. Together, their episodes explore ministry in spaces most people never encounter, each revealing a different facet of what deep presence and care look like.About Pastor Joe InglePastor Joe Ingle has spent decades ministering to incarcerated individuals across the United States, particularly those on death row. His work centers on accompaniment, advocacy, and restoring dignity to people society has deemed irredeemable. Joe is also an author and activist committed to criminal justice reform and the abolition of the death penalty.Links & ResourcesGrab a copy of Joe's book, "Too Close to the Flame: With the Condemned inside the Southern Killing Machine." Support the ShowIf this episode resonates with you, please consider:Sharing it with a friendLeaving a 5-star reviewSupporting the podcast on PatreonFollowing us on Instagram, X, TikTok, and YouTubeYour support helps new listeners find these important stories.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy