Mormon Discussion Podcast

Today I dissect Jacob Chapter 5: The Allegory of the Olive Tree.  This chapter has been shoved down the throat of believers as an evidence of the Book of Mormon’s divine origins.  Olive horticulture is unique we were told.  Joseph couldn’t have possibly known the concepts therein.  How one grafts, dungs, burns, plants, and nourishes olive trees is beyond the knowledge base of Joseph Smith, we are told.  But is this true. Today we explore what Joseph could have known and what those sources say about Zenos’ Allegory.  And in examing this we learn that once you grant 1.) that the Smiths were farmers 2.) Many other fruit trees known to the Smiths can be grafted. 3.) that the concepts and themes seem heavily borrowed primarily from Isaiah Chapter 5 and Romans 11 4.) and that a significant theme seems plagiarized from Luke 13 What is left is not only is every idea and concept within Joseph’s milleu but that Jacob chapter 5 gives us insight into how Joseph, by plagiarizing a multitude of sources, may be history’s greatest Eclectic Aggregator known to man. (Hat tip to Anthony Miller for the term Eclectic Aggregator) (Hat tip to Anthony Miller and Michael Tweedy for portions of this episode) RESOURCES: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/5?lang=eng patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2020/05/some-notes-on-olive-cultivation-and-the-book-of-mormon.html?fbclid=IwAR12JBtkBnmxWZLZBbz15Mx9rSZwZw_M8mkUHXHWdwQu8t7kvwMIzuSyooM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Olive_Tree https://books.google.ca/books?id=fodGAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA364&lpg=PA364&dq=jim%20whitefield%20and%20the%20olive%20tree%20allegory&source=bl&ots=iWgKXwiDd9&sig=ACfU3U0Ga1gGqfVKYkCmO3XsxMozXb07Jw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4tv_x-q7pAhUnGTQIHdpWAgYQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ&fbclid=IwAR37_rwO9YqLPs1UO_phZNWbc359YXrh4HgWPVnOvMycN2KW6fWqUjTMPug#v=onepage&q=olive&f=false https://exploringmormonism.com/jacob-5-why-vinyards-and-olives/?fbclid=IwAR3yqWBlvn829_9md-Y15gipwZKok7HIHnqDTuCJQNlEBZHWDrdce0ZpkOU https://byustudies.byu.edu/lessons/13-allegory-olive-trees https://radiofreemormon.org/2020/05/radio-free-mormon-161-magic-and-the-book-of-mormon/ https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-jacob-through-words-mormon-learn-joy/botanical-comparisons-allegory-olive-tree https://homeguides.sfgate.com/olive-trees-planted-around-vineyards-57257.html?fbclid=IwAR3L3fFEOcX0fD9JLWGsAdXjYyVWn1AvCJDuYh2A_-4os0sluSY_lRRaFlM The Allegory of the Olive Tree – Jacob 5 https://www.ldsliving.com/Dissecting-the-Meaning-and-Symbols-Found-in-Jacob-5-The-Allegory-of-the-Olive-Tree/s/92569 https://zelphontheshelf.com/a-plagiarized-plan-the-origin-of-the-3-degrees/ http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296 The post Mormon Discussions: 352: Jacob Chapter 5 – The Allegory of the Olive Tree appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Audio from a Live Broadcast on March 4th 8AM Mountain Time, Bill Reel and Chris Bloxham will examine Mormonism’s long standing journey w/ racism. Elder Oaks will be making a special appearance and we will have the chance to hear the great Priesthood story of Bonky & Creeby The post Mormon Discussions: 351: Chris Bloxham & Bill Reel Dissect Race and Priesthood appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with my good friend Brittney Hartley.  We discuss primarily her book Mormon Philosophy simplified.  While doing so we end up exploring life. Astrology, Sam Harris, tribalism, Divine Feminine, raising children in the Church, Sapiens, myth, Christmas, spirituality, relationships, Enneagrams…the list goes on! Mormon Philosophy Simplified : by Brittney Hartley The post Mormon Discussion Podcast: 350: Brittney Hartley – Mormon Philosophy Simplified appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

A Listener, George, called Bill this week and asked him if he might tackle an episode dealing with Bill’s Personal experiences with the Temple. So here it is Thursday, Feb 20th, at 7:30 AM. Get ready to feel Elevation Emotion like never before!!!! The post Mormon Discussion Podcast: 349: Bill Reel’s Personal Experiences With The Temple appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

On Monday February 10th 2020, the Wall Street Journal, released a exclusive interview with Mormon Leaders regarding the Faith’s amassed 100 Billion Plus in investments. Wall Street Journal’s audio https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-mormon-church-100-billion-secret-fund/124ce913-14e4-4d9e-aaa9-6e75e96f6514?fbclid=IwAR06jINGEidlav4datrnr4LY9Ovkj7AeskMgSQVkuhWWetnaIf5e93FGzsE We examine 6 sound bites from the WSJ podcast and examine whether the LDS Church is being honest about its wealth and why it avoided publishing the amount it had accumulated. The post Mormon Discussion: 347: Mormon Billions and the Wall Street Journal appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we begin our first live broadcast of the Mormon Discussion Podcast. We will engage the topic of Joseph Smith’s Treasure Digging and welcome live call ins to the show and discuss the messy issue of Joseph Smith’s Treasure Hunting and use of Seer Stones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_(Latter_Day_Saints) https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/27599/3/Parker_Stuart_AC_201103_PhD_thesis.pdf http://undergroundnotes.com/graphics7/Dialogue_V27N03_211.pdf Palmyra Magic Timeline http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones/%22Rock_in_hat%22_used_for_Book_of_Mormon_translation http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Joseph’s_use_of_the_seer_stone_as_a_youth http://fr.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/08/the-alvin-smith-story-fact-and-fiction?lang=eng http://mit.irr.org/changing-first-vision-accounts-1827-first-vision-account-related-willard-chase http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=HP-FBC The post Mormon Discussions: 346: Re-Broadcast – Joseph Smith’s Folk Magic and Seer Stones appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I share a list I having been working on.  It has to do with Mormon Absurdities.  The goal was to provide a list of items, that in order to believe Mormonism, one must accept these items as reconcilable, if one accepts the official narrative of their faith and the words of their prophets. These items are seen as irrational when one tries to reconcile them.  One may choose to believe them but there are explanations or interpretations in each instance that require less conjecture. For example If I’m out in a cabin in the woods and I hear tapping on the tin roof, it’s simply more rational to conclude a raccoon than a space alien. You may still in fact choose to believe the noise was caused by a Space Alien. Yet nearly anyone on the planet would agree the raccoon explanation is more rational than the alien one. But the only reason at all to assume one is more rational than the other is because that explanation accounts for the data with exponentially less conjecture. Anytime you choose the solution or belief that requires more conjecture, you are in fact being irrational. When you take into account a multitude of beliefs or perspectives that each on their own requires more conjecture than other beliefs or perspectives you begin to run into a wall where the statistical improbability is insurmountable.  The List is found HERE https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yzkCZkhjp_WmU9n6xWjqO0-ivX-ppQ0HrRjy4ItZz-U/edit?usp=sharing Concluding Song by Weird Alma – Do Some Good The post Mormon Discussion: 345: Mormon Absurdities appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we discuss the August 2019 New Era Article on Vaping, Coffee, Tea, Marijuana, and Opioids.  Todays episode dives into the logic of why each item is forbidden and how that logic not only differs with each other thaey also make little sense when juxtaposed against other substances that are not banned and even supported by the Church that easily fall into the same reasoning.  In the end it doesn’t seem to be about which substances are harmful, which are addictive, and at times the why isn’t even stated while at the same time some of the banned substances are actually shown to be good for you. Resources: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2019/08/vaping-coffee-tea-and-marijuana?lang=eng https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/statement-word-of-wisdom-august-2019 http://www.ldsliving.com/In-New-Era-Church-Clarifies-Word-of-Wisdom-and-Stance-on-Green-Tea-Vaping-More/s/91375 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/17/mormon-church-coffee-vaping-still-no-no-despite-fancy-names-flavors/2039164001/ https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-clarifies-word-of-wisdom-on-vaping-green-tea-coffee-marijuana-opioids https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/08/16/no-more-green-tea-vaping-or-drinks-ending-ccino-mormon-church-tells-members/?noredirect=on https://www.caffeineinformer.com/7-good-reasons-to-drink-coffee https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/top-13-evidence-based-health-benefits-of-coffee https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-latest-scoop-on-the-health-benefits-of-coffee-2017092512429 The post Mormon Discussion: 344: Vaping, Coffee & Tea, Marijuana and an Irrational God appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

TRIGGER WARNING We will be discussing the topic of Sex Abuse and while not discussing the incidents specifically this episode may be triggering to some. Today we sit down with a friend Kindra Celani and discuss her experience with Sex Abuse and its connection to the LDS Church.  She shares how her abuser used Mormonism as a shield for his predatory behavior and how the LDS Church’s local untrained leaders seemed unable sense their duty in reporting her abuse to the authorities.  On top of that recent events show that the top leaders within institutional Mormonism have set as a priority protecting the Church over reaching out with love and sincerity to the victims of abuse. Resources: https://www.rainn.org/about-national-sexual-assault-telephone-hotline https://www.insider.com/mormon-church-accused-of-silencing-sexual-assault-claims-2019-5 https://abcnews.go.com/US/families-speak-church-jesus-christ-day-saints-sex/story?id=63690802 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d3n73w/duty-to-report-the-mormon-church-has-been-accused-of-using-a-victims-hotline-to-hide-sexual-abuse-claims https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3OqvQw_-ko https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/08/21/498646.htm https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/06/02/southern-baptist-missionary-leaders-repeatedly-covered-up-sexual-abuse/ https://www.charismanews.com/us/77588-pentecostal-church-allegedly-covered-up-sexual-abuse-for-30-years https://www.newsweek.com/jehovahs-witnesses-child-sex-abuse-lawsuit-1454001 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44209971 https://abcnews.go.com/US/california-man-accuses-jehovahs-witnesses-covering-childhood-sex/story?id=65097514 http://religiousinstitute.org/denom_statements/statement-on-child-sexual-abuse/ https://religionnews.com/2018/11/15/clergy-sex-abuse-why-a-national-all-faiths-inquiry-is-needed/ https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/11687/view/truth-project-thematic-report%3A-child-sexual-abuse-context-religious-institutions-full-report.pdf https://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/96038.pdf https://www.faithtrustinstitute.org/resources/learn-the-basics/ce-faqs The post Mormon Discussion: 343: Kindra Celani: The Axe Forgets, The Tree Remembers appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

There are multiple examples of Joseph Smith’s manipulation of vulnerable women in order to pressure them into a polygamous relationships.  The Partridge sisters, Lucy Walker, Fanny Alger, The Lawrence Sisters.  Today we share the story of Nancy Rigdon and the Happiness Letter.  Nancy, Daughter of Early Church Leader Sidney Rigdon is a prime example of the mechanisms and manipulation that Joseph Smith would use on Young girls in order to pressure them into an intimate relationship.  Joining me are Chris Smith and Jonathan Streeter as they run us through the data and help us get the full context of this story and its surrounding events.Please check out the resources below. RESOURCES: Joseph Smith meeting the Rigdon’s and giving Nancy a blessing Messenger and Advocate Rumors of impropriety between Joseph Smith and Rigdon Girl Orson Pratt stating that Joseph taught Polygamy in 1832 while living with Johnsons at their Farm Rumors of affair between Agnes Smith (Widow of the Prophet’s Brother Don Carlos) and Joseph Smith.  They were later sealed January of 1842, before the relief society was created. Times & Season Vol 3 Pg 291 (left hand column showing Conference Minutes regarding Marth Brotherton being locked in a room) Martha Brotherton Affidavit Emma Smith’s redaction of encouragement to accept private teachings over public ones Nancy Marinda Johnson Hyde commanded to live with others 1904 Letter by brother John Rigdon -Claimed that Joseph Smith mentioned that he had made a proposal to Nancy Rigdon and she turned around and spoke out about it. Chris Smith: Playing Lamanite: Ecstatic Performance of American Indian Identity in Early Mormon Ohio John C Bennett sharing the Happiness Letter with the public John C Bennett’s expose “The History of the Saints” (Left hand Column) Discussion by Bennett which includes info on the Nancy Rigdon affair (third column from the left) The Happiness Letter within the History of the Church Gerrit Dirkmaat’s refutation of the Happiness Letter’s provenance Additional context and quotes around the Happiness Letter by Van Hale Excellent discussion of JST translation of Roman 7 Discussion of Romans 7 and the Happiness Letter William Mcclellin letter to Joseph SMith III affirming that Emma knew about Josephs polygamy Grant Palmer and the sexual accusations against Joseph Smith pre-nauvoo (Mormon Stories Podcast) Brian Hales refutation of Grant Palmer’s perspective (Mormon Discussion Podcast) Brian Hales’ Interpreter article refuting Grant Palmer ChurchOfJesusChrist.org (formerly LDS.org) Search results for the famous Happiness Quote High Council minutes the looking into the sexual indiscretions of women in Nauvoo 2nd source for High Council minutes Brigham Young’s journal where he used a quasi-masonic cipher to record Joseph’s WAS (Wedded And Sealed) ceremony to Agnes on Jan 6 1842 William C Smith’s assertion of Joseph Smith and Nancy Rigdon having issues in Kirtland Account of Joseph demanding that Brigham Young drop charges against William Smith in John C Bennet Affair Devery Anderson’s Sunstone article (Includes a few sections on the Nancy Rigdon affair) Jonathan Streeter’s Sunstone Presentation on the Happiness Letter (YouTube) Jonathan Streeter & Chris Smith’s Sunstone presentation on the Happiness Letter (Audio Only) November 1841 sermon that what we think is sin is not sin Brigham Young sealed Martha Brotherton to himself with proxy “Illicit Intercourse,” Plural Marriage, and the Nauvoo Stake High Council, 1840-1844 William McClellin letter to Joseph Smith III affirming that Emma knew about Josephs relationships with women Ebenezer Robinson’s memoirs includes a brief discussion of the November sermon about sin not being sin Happiness Letter quoted in LDS official sources 1     2      3      4     5     6 From the testimony of Catherine Fuller: (Quote where William suggest Catherine not get married and grant his sexual requests and he would continue to supply her sustenance) “[William Smith] has also been to my house on the 27th of last month being the day I was married and proposed unlawful connexion but I refused and told him that it was contrary to the teaching of Joseph on the stand. He answered that Joseph was obliged to teach to the contrary on the stand to keep down prejudice and keep peace at home First W. Smith insisted very much that I should not marry and proposed to supply me with food &c if I should remain unmarried and grant his requests” From the testimony of Sarah Miller: “Some two or three weeks since, in consequence of Bro Joseph Smiths teachings to the singers, I began to be alarmed concerning myself, & certain teachings which I had recevd from Chauncy L. Higby, & questioned him about his teaching, for I was pretty well persuaded from Joseph[’s] public teachings that Chaney had been telling falsehood.– but Chauncy said that that Joseph Now taught as he did th[r]ough necessity, on acount of the prejudices of the people, & his own family particlarly as they had not become full believers in the doctrine.” The happiness letter was not published until Dec, 1855 within the Church.  When we find strong congruences between other sermons and documents that match the rhetoric and theology and ideas in the happiness letter around the same time as its authorship, such seems to strongly indicate that the ideas in the happiness letter were taught pervasively to the early leaders of the church privately.  If the happiness letter is a private letter between smith and Nancy Rigdon, why are multiple leaders teaching its concepts abroad? Multiple leaders should not be quoting specific language from a private letter on multiple occasions unless either the letter wasn’t private or the rhetoric wasn’t unique. Example 1 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology When Apostle George Q. Cannon preached: “I think that God has created us to be happy” in July 1874,6 he was also apparently referencing the still-uncited 1842 letter’s words (not published in Utah since 1855): “Happiness is the object and design of our existence …”7 Example 2 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology Apostle John Taylor was also referencing the above (again without attribution) in his March 1872 sermon which referred to “revelation adapted to the peculiar circumstances in which they were placed,” followed nine pages later by his paraphrase about “revelation adapted peculiarly to the position that we occupy.” Example 3 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology “In October 1850, Orson Pratt’s Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon referred to “new revelation adapted to the peculiar condition of himself as an individual, and varied at sundry times, according to the change of circumstances …” Example 4 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology D. Michael Quinn “Not until five years later did the Deseret News include in its serialization of “Joseph Smith’s History” the 1842 text that Apostle Pratt was obviously paraphrasing: “This is the principle on which the government of Heaven is conducted, by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed.”4” Example 5 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology D. Michael Quinn six years before J. Golden Kimball quoted from the “Happiness” letter in general conference, the Improvement Era of April 1920 printed Apostle David O. McKay’s sermon which announced: The guiding spirit of life was manifest from the beginning of his [Joseph Smith’s] ministry and confirms his wonderful declaration that God had spoken to him. In his own words[,] it is this: Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire.8 Example 6 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology Benjamin Johnson: (From Johnsons autobiography) He looked at me, oh, so calmly, and said, “Brother Benjamin, you will never see that day, but you shall see the day you will know it is true, and you will fulfill the law and greatly rejoice in it.” And he said, “At this morning’s meeting, I will preach you a sermon that no one but you will understand. And furthermore, I will promise you that when you open your mouth to your sister, it shall be filled.” At the meeting he read the Parable of the Talents, and showed plainly that to him that hath shall be given more, and from him that had but one should be taken that he seemed to have, and given to him who had ten. This, so far as I could understand, might relate to families.” Example 7 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology Willard Richards writing to his wife prior to happiness letter – citing the earliest similar rhetoric to the happiness letter and even calling it a grand secret Intimation of Teaching the keeping of Secrets “Prest. Smith said all proceedings that regard difficulties should be kept among the members— as to the Institution, its objects are charitable— none can object to telling the good— the evil withhold— hoped all would feel themselves bound to observe this rule.” The post Mormon Discussion: 342: Nancy Rigdon and the Happiness Letter appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.