Owner To Owner Podcast

@MartinGinnane from  @ginnaneassociates is an expert advisor on #retaildevelopment #placemaking and #brandactivation. He's worked with international cities and regional towns on major #investmentattraction #regionalrenewal and #retailrenewal projects. He was the #vicgov first retail industry specialist, is a member of the @victoriangovernment #SmallBusinessMinisterialCouncil and had senior roles at the #vicgov #DepartmentofBusinessandInnovation and was #DeputyManagingDirector of #DowntownDutyFree. The following quote from his website sums up his philosophy and approach to the work he does."Global Cities of significance all have one thing in common, a strong and vibrant, culturally diverse heart that encourages people to live, experience, participate and claim ownership of their location. At the heart of these cities, is a unique offering that makes them stand out from the sameness that is making so many cities bland and boring. Retail strength, placemaking and events are the economic backbone of all successful global cities and large residential developments." He's currently working on a major retail renewal project with the @cityofwarrnambool and in the discussion we cover;bringing his experience with major city #investmentattraction to regional townsthe exciting opportunities ahead for #regionaltownsavoiding the 'sameness' that is making so many cities bland and boring, the #oversuccess of big citieshow #Covid19 fast-tracked problems in the retail sectorwhere and how #prestige  has lost out to #masstige  and why "luxury is about where you found it rather where you bought it"#liebigstreet #warrnambool the critical role of #localgovernment   #restorationgrants  #landlords #localcouncilthe component pieces in a vibrant and vital #retailstrip#treechange and the influence of these younger people when they return to the towns they were born in#foodandbeverage #whiskybars #goodbottleshop  #ginbars #goodpizzabuilding #sustainable #businessmodel from services and products that appeals to #locals and #visitors #smallbusiness an #employmentgenerator in #regionaltownswww.kerrcapital.com.auA full transcript of the interview is below. Michael Kerr: Hi, it's Michael Kerr here presenting Small Business Banter.A healthy micro and small business sector means a successful economy and a more vibrant society. Small Business Banter is about helping regional business owners better prepare for current challenges, but also for the next stage of business success. I'm Michael Kerr, founder of Kerr Capital, advisors to business owners.Each week I interview a fellow small business owner or an expert and they share their stories, their life experiences, the wins and the losses, and their best advice to help you, the listener, get the most you can from your own business. Small Business Banter is brought to you from the studios of 104.7 Gippsland FM and is heard across Australia on the Community Radio Network. Thanks also to Kerr Capital supporters of the show.Okay, welcome to another edition of Small Business Banter. Really pleased to have in today with us, Martin Ginnane, from Ginnane & Associates. Martin will tell you a lot more about what he's done in a few minutes, but I just wanted to cover off some of the highlights. He's principally responsible for advising on retail development, place making and brand activation. He's done a lot of work in both big cities and regional areas. He's a member of the Small Business Ministerial Council, and he's really a Retail Industry Specialist here in Victoria. And prior to that, he was the Deputy Managing Director of Downtown Duty-Free. Firstly, welcome in today, Martin. Martin Ginnane: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Michael: And for today's discussion with Martin, we're going to be talking about regional renewal, making the most of retail, attracting investment, and lessons learned from some of the major initiatives. Martin was involved in Melbourne and now has been working with regional Victoria locations in Camperdown Warrnambool and Ballarat. So we're looking forward to that. But Martin, if you could, just give us a couple of minutes in your background so the listeners are in sync with where you come from and what you do. Over to you.Martin: Thank you, Michael. I'm fortunate enough to have had a very varied background, but all around the retail sector. Born in Melbourne many, many years ago. I was raised in Melbourne. I spent 20 years in Sydney where I started my retail career with companies such as Angus and Coote, The Jeweler's and Diamond Traders, which was part of then of the Hooker Corporation owned by the illustrious George Herscu. And then was poached to join Downtown Duty Free in the days when Duty Free was a big business. We had Melbourne Airport, Brisbane Airport, Sydney Airport, and about 15 off-airport stores. So, at about 6,000 staff in those days. I joined there as Deputy Managing Director. And after six years, we were taken over by Swiss Air Company. I was retrenched and thought, well, I'll come back home to Melbourne. I came back to Melbourne and was appointed as the Victorian government's first Retail Industry Specialist at a time when Melbourne in particular had vacancy rates as high as 17 to 18%. I was appointed under the Kennett government for 12 months and ended up staying there for 17 years. And during that period, I work mainly on investment attraction for the CBD, an original advisor on the Melbourne Fashion Festival for the state government up until I departed 10 years ago to establish my own business, Ginnane & Associates.Michael: Excellent. So, from that background, you know a lot about foot traffic. So I'm looking forward to exploring the work that you've been doing. I mean, drawing on that rich experience, but also relating it to what you've been doing in some of the regional parts of Victoria. So, I just wanted to start off with a quote from your website, "Global Cities of significance all have one thing in common, a strong and vibrant, culturally diverse heart that encourages people to live, experience, participate and claim ownership of their location. At the heart of these cities, is a unique offering that makes them stand out from the sameness that is making so many cities bland and boring. Retail strength, placemaking and events are the economic backbone of all successful global cities and large residential developments." That's straight from your website. It was very powerful. I'm going to ask you about how regional towns and regional cities in Australia can take something from that. I'm assuming it applies across towns as well as cities.Martin: Most definitely, Michael, it does. It's a big statement, and it's a strong statement and it's one that I'm thinking actually of using on every single presentation that I do to whether be commercial or private government, particularly in this day and age. It came from the fact that a lot of things were happening in the retail sector prior to COVID. We can all say that COVID caused it, but there are massive changes happening prior. One of the things that was driving this belief that I have in that statement is that sameness was happening all around the world. So you could walk down in Collins Street, you could walk down all the major cities, and they were taken over now by the mega giants, the Louis Vuitton's, the Gucci's, the Prada's, who roll out their international branding twice a year.So, you can walk down these streets and look in the windows and you'll see the same thing. The only time that you'll notice if you'll look up and you'll see St Paul or St Patrick's Cathedral or Notre Dame and you'll think I'm not in Melbourne, I'm in Paris. So seriously, that's how bad retail was getting.Michael: They'd taken that McDonald's consistency of product just a little bit too far with their retail.Martin: Yeah, and I call it masstige rather than prestige. It has got to the point where the big players are having to buy smaller boutique operations now to make themselves unique and so-called exclusive again because of the success and over success of some of those global brands.Michael: Too much commoditization of a once glorious brand. Martin: Exactly. So, one of the things that comes out of this is the desire to experience something that is different and unique. One of my other sayings is, "luxury to me is about someone says where did you find that as opposed to where did you buy it." Because you can buy anything these days. If you've got the money, you can buy something at the top. When within 18 months it'll be at H&M or probably far less than that, or how you can buy the copy of it. But the wonderful discovery, finding something, whether it's a great old book or pre-love tie or whatever the case may be. So, jumping back into your question. This is where retail cities and towns across Australia had the upper hand. It is really, really their opportunity to shine. We can discuss that as we go along. Michael: Yeah. Look, I think we ought to jump straight into that. The renewal or the potential renewal of the local shopping strip. I mean, you're doing some work recently, I think, in Ballarat, which got some magnificent real estate and grand streets. But what would you take to those places to make that local shopping strip vital and exciting for the locals? I'm assuming we're not going to have potentially some of those big international luxury brands.Martin: Nor do you want them. But Michael, what I think is the scenario is that it's going to be driven by two things. You've got to have an appetite by the local government. You've got to have an appetite by the council. For example, I just almost finished four years work with the City of Warrnambool on the redevelopment of Liebig Street. So they had a counselor at the time who had a vision to say to themselves and their constituents, "If we don't do something with this beautiful old big wide street, it is falling into such disrepair that we are losing out to the new shopping centers that are opening and almost circling like a western movie with the wagon train circling the town." Michael: Right. And choking it off.Martin: And choking it off. Now, this scenario with success for any regional town or major strip is to make sure that they are no longer just selling stuff. I use the difference between a product and an NSA stuff. This is not being derogatory to any of the brands that are in the shopping centers around regional cities. And those shopping centers do offer convenience. If it's pouring with rain, a young mother can drive in or a young father can drive in. Unload the baby. It's dry. They are not going to get wet. But although found in those shopping centers is stuff. They'll find inexpensive football socks for the kids which they need because they grow so quickly. They'll find a dress. They might find a cheap, inexpensive set of cabinets or something for their bedroom. That's fine.When they come into Warrnambool or when they come into Ballarat or when they come in to Camperdown, it's about wanting to come into town because that is where they are going to experience and find things that are different and unique. They are going to be able to engage with the community in a much nicer environment, wider footpaths, planting, better awnings, easier parking. All those things make for an environment that will make regional cities and towns continue to thrive.Michael: Right. So Warrnambool, Ballarat, other regional towns around Australia, the history is there. But you talked about having local councilors being a big part of the equation they need to support. What about landlords? I mean, some of these buildings are grand and make for beautiful retail or food or whatever. But the older they get, the harder they are to maintain, or the costly they are to maintain.Martin: You can see examples not just in regional towns. You can see examples on Chapel Street under the Council of Stonnington on Glenferrie Road in many, many areas. One of the advantages that live shopping centers have is that every so many years, your store must be refurbished. You must meet the guidelines of the shopping center and so forth. So while that creates a great Disneyland feel and a very, very nice, safe environment and a pleasurable environment where we're almost craving. Well, we are craving something that's a bit more earthy and a bit more real.Warrnambool, and I know the City of Ballarat as well. Warrnambool successfully offered restoration grants for property owners during the redevelopment program. The City of Warrnambool got that funding from federal state and from their own coffers. So three lots of funding. I believe the City of Ballarat has done the same for the renewal of the mall. I believe both cities are offering grants and financial assistance to restore and renew these heritage buildings.Michael: Right. So assuming the landlord takes advantage, then it does really open up the opportunities for smaller retail operators, whether they be food or whether they are quirky retail, to start something.Martin: Michael, the exciting thing is when you walk down the streets of these areas now is that you are seeing young people. You are seeing in Warrnambool there's, I think, three whiskey bars. There's a gin bar. These are all being run by young people who were born and raised in Warrnambool. Evidently, you do need to either be born there or marry somebody. And if you marry somebody, you need to be married for 20 years before you are classed as a true business owner.Michael: Before you get your stamp. Yeah.Martin: Even though I've been there a lot, I still don't think I'm a local. But they are coming back to town. They are seeing opportunities to come back to their town and make a living for themselves and their families. There's new housing estates being built in big numbers around these large and medium-sized regional cities. And these people come in many ways, quite often from urban environments, and they still want to live the same way. They want to be able to go out to a whiskey bar. Well, they want to be out to buy some nice cheese and some nice bread. Michael: Yeah. And in today's edition of Small Business Banter, I'm talking with Martin Ginnane from Ginnane & Associates. Yeah, that's a trend that we talk about all the time on Small Business Banter. The movement back from CBD areas, whether it be Sydney or other states and capitals, and this reinvigoration of towns and those people bringing with them some of their experiences. There's no question me, Melbourne and Sydney and Brisbane and Adelaide have some incredible innovation in food, but it seems to be transplanting now in these regional locations. Is that a result of people just having enough of the city being too expensive to run businesses? What are your thoughts on why this is happening?Martin: I think, Michael, you are spot on it. But it's a combination of all those things. It's a combination of perhaps the over success that large cities have had in terms of urbanization, particularly Melbourne, in the last eight to ten years. Massive increase of student population, which we see the massive contribution they've given to the economy, particularly as I haven't been here for the last 12 months. It's a combination of all those things. People want to not necessarily escape, they just want to experience something, whether they are moving permanently or whether they are visiting. The other thing that's happening, of course, is that the ability. I know someone in particular who's going to be working. He stays in Ballarat but is working from Melbourne firm, and then you need to go to Melbourne that twice a week. So all that flexibility is something five years ago we didn't have.Michael: Yeah, I think you made a comment earlier about not what you bought, where you bought it or you found it. You know, I live down the Bellarine Peninsula. My office is in Queenscliff. Well, it's fascinating every day to walk through that street and what it might be and see the gin bars and the distilleries. Not so much in Queenscliff, but certainly in other places, it's booming. It's a combination of that vigor and energy. If you were to take a view of what the next town that wants to reinvigorate their retail strip, the historical retail strip, what are the key that we've talked about to support to restore buildings? I guess we need landlords to come onboard and buy into the vision, and the small business operators. What else or who else is needed to really kick start getting these places? Because people are traveling more and more through regional Australia because you can't go elsewhere. So the opportunities would seem to be there if you've got an interesting offer.Martin: The LGA, the Local Government Authority, has to have the passion. And the counselors, the CEO, have to have a dream of what that town could be. In many eyes, retail doesn't play a part. Retail services and hospitality don't really play a part in local government plans. They may have a four-year strategy for economic development, but retail and services don't normally play a big part in it. So, in order for what you've just said, the other players, the landlords, the small business operators, the potential investors. You have to know that you are moving into an area or considering to move into an area where a council is hungry for your business and is keen to get it.I'm just about to deliver an investment attraction to the opportunity in Warrnambool where we are inviting some of the big commercial real estate agents down to have a look at what the area has to offer. How it's grown, how it's changed. Not necessarily to get any big players down but for them to be able to put Warrnambool in their head for property investors, but also for businesses that might be looking to expand. Michael: So you're saying that retail and retail services aren't really a driver for the LGAs. Is that it?Martin: No. I'm not saying that with all of them, but with a lot of them it's very much... When I started originally with the state capital which was over 20 years ago. I remember having a director said to me, "But Martin, why are we even playing in this space? One shop closes, another shop opens." It's not as simple as that. It's a scenario where council needs to lead the way in a vision of what they want the city to be. And when I say retailer, not necessarily just talking about selling more stuff. A good regional town, a good regional city, should attract people. It should attract its own people. It should attract visitors. But it should attract them for a multitude of reasons. Retail, food, beverage is one of the biggest drivers in today's market.Michael: Absolutely. It is. And it's certainly an area for further discussion. But if you look around, I spend a lot of time in traveling in regional Victoria. I go a long way for a good bakery, a good beer, a good pizza. So, what are the components for a good contemporary retail strip in any given town? What must you have to get people to choose that town over another town? Martin: You have to have two things. You have to have a business model that appeals to the locals, and you also have to have a business model that will appeal to the visitors. Now, I spent a lot of time as a young boy, which was a long time ago in Daylesford and Hepburn Springs, and I remember how it was and I see how it is now. However, for all the success, Daylesford in particular is still very much a weakened economy. Because driven by everything that appeals to the tourist. You must maintain an offering that appeals to your local residents as well. So you need, as you just said, a good pizza joint which Warrnambool has about two and Ballarat has about six. You need a really good bottle shop. You need a couple of good pubs. You need a pub that has good live music. You need a good delicatessen. You know, there's one in Warrnambool called Darriwill Farm. It was a retail released by a woman by the name of Lisa Pitkethly. It's the most amazing business. It's got absolutely everything.Michael: I also tried some stores in the city. I didn't know that.Martin: They had one in [inaudible] and they had one in Albert Park, I think, but I think that both are gone. Lisa's got bought out her own business now. But it's that sort of business where you just go there. It's almost like a small Ikea for food and delicatessen. You just go in. You pick up a basket and you buy. The other thing is, do these towns need this as they get to and need to have the services as well? So there's a good banking infrastructure. There's two insurance brokers. There're things like that that help the community.Michael: Yeah. And those communities would think on across the board of growing. So you've got a bigger and more permanent base to build a business around. This idea of investment attraction, it's still a viable model for local government to think about, local councils. It's not just for big cities. Martin: It's essential because big cities have been so badly hurt. The big cities that have relied particularly on government employees, in a big, big way, and international students. I think of Victoria's wonderful campaign they had many years ago with the jigsaw puzzle. And the course CBD of Melbourne, which I'm actively involved in working on their precincts, review work at the moment. But the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle fall on that. So, the students are falling off the table. The tourists are falling off the table. The public servants in town.Michael: I get it. In that investment attraction, I just want to get your thoughts quickly. There's quite a difference between attracting big employers versus attracting new business operators. I'm very passionate about seeing more small business owners. So it's a balance between getting a bigger organization that can employ 20, 50, or 100 people. But also, I think, sometimes the opportunities to attract new and innovative small business operators. We had Carly Flecknoe from the Made the Grampians Way. She's a classic tree changer. This is maybe 30 episodes back. But that's the kind of energy and vigor that I think we need as well as obviously attracting... Not everyone wants to be a business owner, so we need to have a balance. But I sometimes wonder whether small business might get underappreciated as an employment generator. Martin: They certainly never get underappreciated if I'm involved in anything. I've been in small business in different ways on and off for so many years and I know the difficulties of it, but I am so passionate about believing that this is their time to rise. This is really, really their time to rise. They've got access to so much now in terms of they don't need to pay for big advertising. They've got Instagram. They've got everything at their fingertips to grow their business. Michael: Yeah. They got something that's interesting, quirky. They can get people to the destination.Martin: Exactly.Michael: They can build it and they will come. Maybe that's going to come true for some. Martin: Well, that's why we're doing the investment attraction work. It's certainly not to when under no idea that we will attract big brands, but it's about putting the city of Warrnambool and other cities in investors' minds. Michael: Yeah, and really building on the natural advantage, the heritage, the proximity to food, beverage, produce. Martin: And a wonderful life.Michael: And a wonderful life. Yeah. Hey Martin, that is, unfortunately, time up for us today. But that was a really great chat. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and your energy and passion for that reinvigoration and renewal. Keep up the great work and perhaps we will chat another time, but go well.Martin: Thank you, Michael.Michael: Thanks, Martin Ginnane.So that is all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired, bringing you small business experts and other small business owners and hearing their stories. Do you want to listen to any past episodes? Jump onto your podcast platform of choice and search Small Business Banter. There, you will find a diverse and fascinating collection of small business owners and experts openly discussing and sharing their experiences. For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today or to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com, or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. It would be great to have you tune in the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[END] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@chanuoy is the co-owner of the @dimboolaimaginarium   After more than 20 years in the #hospitalityindustry in #Melbourne involving owning 2 restaurants Chan desperately needed a change. He described #melbourne and #restaurantownership as a "conveyer belt of sameness and pure hard work" -a change had to be made. Long story short @dimboola is where he and partner now live and work. How they ended up making a #treechanage to Dimboola is an intriguing story of planning and serendipity.  Since arriving and inspired to create something unique as a destination they have acquired a 19th bank and built the @dimboolaimaginarium - a grand building with a fascinating history and ceiling high enough to house a 3.75 metre giraffe! It was a big, brave move and in our Chan talks openly about the lead up, joining a new community, building a destination business as well as;creating experiencesreading and architecture as a source of inspirationsdoing what you need to do, what you want to do#treechangethe #renaissance of #dimboola #wimmeraadapting to a different pace of life,  to a smaller and tighter community and getting involvedbreaking the ice by recreating a photo of the bank opening 110 years on and winning the 2019 local event of the year from the @localcouncil the need for more #destinationbusinesses fuelled by the sameness of #shoppingcentres around the worldhow a 4 hour drive is now liberation whereas pre-Covid19 it was a chorenearby attractions - a 19tjh century pipe organ in the middle of the woods near @rainbow @pellachurch  @littledesert @wimmerariver #steampunk and how it fits with #countrytowns and #farmingcommuniites @kerrcapitalA full transcript is below.Michael Kerr: Hi, it's Michael Kerr here. Presenting Small Bu[siness Banter. A healthy micro and small business sector means a successful economy and a more vibrant society. Small Business Banter is about helping regional business owners better prepare for current challenges, but also for the next stage of business success. I'm Michael Kerr, founder of Kerr Capital, advisors to business owners.Michael: Each week, I interview a fellow small business owner or an expert and they share their stories, their lived experiences, the wins and the losses, and their best advice to help you, the listener, get the most you can from your own business. Small Business Banter is brought to you from the Studio's in 104.7 Gippsland FM, and is heard across Australia on the community radio network, and thanks also to Kerr Capital, supporters of the show.Welcome to another edition of Small Business Banter Radio. I'm really pleased to have in @ChanUoy from the @DimboolaImaginarium. We're going to get Chan to talk about the Dimboola Imaginarium, but welcome in firstly, Chan.Chan Uoy: Thank you, Michael. Good morning. Michael: It's really wonderful to have you in. We met a couple of weeks ago when I was spending the weekend with some friends up at @Dimboola, and we got chatting, and that's how this interview came about was serendipitous. You and partner, Jamie, made a move to Dimboola about two years ago, but could you just give us a little bit of a backdrop of where you came from? When you came to Dimboola, and what the Dimboola Imaginarium is all about?Chan: No problem. Well, everyone asks us how did we end up in Dimboola? And I generally say by accident. So what happened was, we have been fantasizing about getting out of Melbourne , for, say the last six years. We had a restaurant in Docklands for 13 years, but I start off in Yarraville in 1998. So we're one of the first in Yarraville to get a building and create a new restaurant in Yarraville. That was all that 20 years of hospitality, and I guess at the end I got really burnt out. I was actually really depressed leading up to moving to the country. It was a decision that I knew I had to make because I was depressed in the hospitality industry because it's a lot of hard work. Your life runs according to the clock. By a set time, you have to be out of here. I have done this. So it was just a conveyor belt of sameness and pure hard work. So by the end, I was really depressed. And, of course, you need to make that call and to make that change. So we've been researching and fantasizing, and inspecting country towns, and homes for a while. So, when the opportunity came up, it was in @Stawell. So we discovered a beautiful mechanics institute building built in 1875 on Main Street @Stawell. It was perfect to create an Imaginarium there and we were going to call it. Mr. Inskip's Imaginarium because the architect was Mr. Inskip. The building was magnificent because, in the basement, there was a Roman Stone, sorry, bluestone arches, but Roman arches and the foundation was granite, so it was really well-built. So you can imagine in the basement from the whole entire length of the building, you could create a wine bar. It was really quite spectacular. Michael: Wow, you did contemplate going back into hospitality.Chan: Yeah, that was just a vision but I wouldn't have done it. It was just really cool. You know what I mean? It would have been a cool space. Having come from hospitality you appreciate these things. But basically about creating restaurants: It's about creating worlds. And that's what I've learned from the last two businesses. Is that you think about what do you want your customers to experience? But also, what do I want to experience first and foremost? So, if I want to experience a particular world or environment, you create it. So that's what I've learned from the last two restaurants. You create your Ideal World Experience. Michael: Yeah. In the restaurant or in those businesses, were you a chef? What was your... Chan: So my background was accounting. So I think...Michael: Not what I expected, but... Chan: No, I did accounting and the reason why I realized I didn’t like accounting was I just want to go to auditing. I saw. Oh, no, I've chosen the wrong course. So, you know, look I've done it. I didn't like it only because I realize I like to create things. So you have a vision [crosstalk] and ...Michael: And if you do that in accounting, you can get in an awful lot of trouble. Chan: That's right. So I wanted to create something that, you know, that's real, you know, that's an experience and I guess I couldn't do that with accounting.Michael: Yeah.Chan: So, I mean, something happened early in my life where I just realized, I guess it was my first proper crisis I should say. So you talk about a person going through crisis, that was my first adult crisis that I went through. So it was a bit of a shake-up and that's why I decided to create my own world. And that's why we created the first restaurant in Yarraville because it's about creating my own little world. I didn't like the politics and power games in the private industry, and I just want to get out of that and I wanted to create my own world where the first restaurant was with family. The typical migrant story. You buy a building and create your own business soo you become independent and autonomous and do your own thing. So, that's where it all started. It's that desire to be free. That was what started the first restaurant. Michael: Yeah. And you got to a period of time and showed you had a second restaurant, but really just burnt out. You know, it's one way... Chan: After 20 years? Yeah, because after 20 years I did start becoming successful, but your stress if you're busy or stress if you're quiet. You're stress all around.Michael: Yeah, okay.Chan: So my stress level was higher than an average person, but it was my normal. It was my new normal so you can see why I had to get out. So a #treechange stem from that because I knew how to address mental health and I guess physical health as well. Michael: Yeah. Chan: So if I had stayed in Melbourne now and not have moved to the country when I did in April 2019, I probably would have lost everything. [crosstalk] As a reality.Michael: Yeah. Yeah. So how did you go about ending up... You looked at Stawell? Dimboola's may be in, I don't know, an hour, hour and a half, is it? or maybe a bit longer from... Chan: Yeah. So what happened was, once again, I can't make this up but stawell, The Mechanics Institute was used as a Bible College. So it's called the Australian Bible College. So they're on the extreme side of Christianity. So we saw like, we're aware of them because their Facebook posts were extreme to the point where, to give you an example of extremity, they described the #MelbourneWhiteKnight as demonic. Michael: Okay. Chan: Yeah. So because of that, we kept an eye on them on social media. So one morning a few days before Christmas, Jamie comes running out of the bedrooms so distressed. Oh my God, the owners of the Bible College are in prison in New South Wales for fraud. They were the ringleaders of 11 people for selling fake training certificates. Now, we couldn't make that up, you couldn't make that up. So we put a deposit on it. And of course, three weeks into it, I realized hasn't been signed and returned to me and now we know why because they were in prison in New South Wales for fraud. So because of that, we had to quickly look for other properties because our property in Melbourne was on the market to help fund our renovations ​because the Bible College didn't have a kitchen. So, we needed to have a kitchen and turn it into a home as well. Michael: Yeah. Chan: So we got the deposit back, thank goodness, but we had to quickly find an alternative property. So we did a list of five different properties, all unique because for us to move out of Melbourne, we wanted the property to be special to make moving out of Melbourne worthwhile. Michael: Yeah.Chan: There's no point moving out of Melbourne to move into an, I guess, ordinary property. For us, it wasn't the point. The point... Michael: You've definitely haven't got an ordinary property. You've got an 1800s... Chan: It's a 19th Century Bank, but the new brick building was built in 1909. So so the original bank was the Oriental Bank in 1883, it was a weatherboard building, but then that collapsed globally due to mismanagement. So the National Bank of Australasia purchased the building, and then they built this building in 1909 in nine months. So to give a description is built in the Renaissance style architecture. So it's got Greek and Roman elements. So really it was an emblem of Dimboola’s prosperity for the time.Michael: Yeah. Okay, and it's a two-story, [crosstalk] substantial building that you've been in now, for, how many years?Chan: two-story. Over two and a half years.Michael: And there's living quarters, living upstairs. And so this, it's a good opportunity to talk about the Dimboola Imaginarium and what you've created there. Chan: Yeah, so we wanted a special building because the building style of the building creates the experience. So when you think about it, architecture creates experience, and it tells a story. So for us, the building had to be special and hence going back to store, The Mechanics Institute Building, because that was a majestic building, Victorian era, that could convey what an Imaginarium is. And that's why, you know, we can't create an Imaginarium in a normal shop. It hasn't got the same oomf. It can't take you to a magic place. So, architecture plays a big role in it. So when you walk through the original bank chamber in the Imaginarium, you really do enter another world. The ceiling height is four and a half meters high. Because it's four and a half meters high we can put that three-point-seven-meter giraffe because we want to create an otherworldly experience for patrons, but also for us because it is our lounge room as well. The bank is our private residence in the old days, the bank managers live on site. So upstairs is four-and-a-half bedrooms, lounge room, dining room, kitchen in the back. So before the bank shut, it was turned to a private residence. So, the shop is our Lounge room. So we want it to be nice for us, first and foremost, and of course, that conveys to customers. Michael: So, what is an Imaginarium? Chan: So an Imaginarium is just a place that inspires the imagination. So for me, I've always, I realized I do have an imagination, but I guess society sometimes tell you to suppress your imagination. You know my parents tell me to pursue other careers.Michael: Accounting is a good career. [crosstalk] Which it is for some peopleChan: That was one of them. Yes. So I guess what got me through the dark periods of the restaurant world at the end was through reading. So I would read a lot of books. I would read books about, non-fiction books, of course, you know about history, architecture, but also about spirituality, and also about just humanity. What makes humans do? To understand more about where I was at? And I also read a lot of fiction as well. So fiction takes me to other places. So through reading that actually helped me get through the dark periods of days. So for me, creating an imaginary room, really suited me because I could allow myself to be creative and free. And that's one of the reasons why we moved out of Melbourne was to find a place where we can create another world for ourselves that's different to the restaurant world, but our world that we want to create finally, and at the age that we are because this is the last big project. Then therefore when it comes to that, you realize what you've got. You actually want to do what you want to do, create what you want to create, and actually enjoy life again. So I have to say I'm the best space that I could be. I never thought I would get to this space. I thought it was just, it was just a long tunnel. I really didn't think I would see the light, literally the light, and I guess the Imaginarium has become a symbol of, I guess me, healing from the dark periods of my years in Melbourne. Michael: I think, you know, to make a significant choice to move from Melbourne, you know, from successful businesses in and of itself is it's a huge move. But you've recognized that's what you needed to do. On today's edition of Small Business Banter radio, I'm chatting with Chan, Uoy from The Dimbulla Imaginarium. There's a bit of a Renaissance going on right across the country for more. We've had a couple of guests on this show talk about people fleeing from major cities to the regional areas Dimboola carries, It's a pretty iconic name in Australian In folklore history, you've landed there. What are you hoping to achieve with the business? I mean, you've talked about the reason for wanting to escape Melbourne, to create something of your own, but what's the in a crude sense, the business model that you've got there? And how is it fitting in Dimboola and that, you know, the Silo Art Trail and all the other interesting things around the around the area? Chan: I have to say, when we first got here, we ordered some firewood and an older man who delivered it said to us, "Don't do anything too ambitious. Some locals, may not like it." We came to that to that warning. So, of course, we clearly ignored that. So what we've done is in a sense, I guess for some people would be considered brave. But what we did was something that we consider, that gave us Joy. So, by creating something joyful that people can experience for the first time that's completely different, completely unexpected. People don't expect to see this in Dimboola. You know, you see I've had feedback that is a shop you see in big cities like London or Paris. It's that sort of caliber because we've gone all out, putting all our work experience into the one space. So what is... Michael: And it's a range. Its books. It's quirky. Chan: It's a lifestyle. Yeah. So by creating that in Dimboola, which people never expected with locals. It's become a destination shop.Michael: Right. Chan: Yeah, so that's that's how I guess the Dimboola town has evolved to because, since we've opened, two other shops have opened. Two other unique individual shops, that you will never find anywhere else in Australia. Michael: Right. Chan: And that's what it's about. It's about creating. I think we've come full circle, the whole world, all the shopping centers around the world, all the same. It's the same brand.Michael: Yea. Chan: So what's happening with, in terms of Renaissance for Dimboola, is that people are creating very personalized, individual shops, that you can not find anywhere else in the world. So, and of course, now, there's another one coming up in, hopefully, the next few weeks, and that shop will be unique. It's got handmade things that's made in Dimboola. They've got items sourced from the Western Bloc, you know Eastern countries during the Cold War. Now, that's pretty cool. That's right. So so basically...Michael: People will travel.Chan: People will travel. And after Covid, when you've been in a lockdown for how many weeks for Melbournian's a four-hour drive out of Melbourne is liberating now. Before Covid, it was a chore. People would never contemplate that but because of Covid, people realize its freedom, absolute freedom. And also, it's a chance for them to discover their own backyard. Of course, the fact that they can't travel overseas as you know, that's been a benefit for regional Victoria. So we're getting lots of first-timers coming to Dimboola, coming to #Wimmera for the first time. Because Wimmera is really the Last Frontier of our tourism because of the distance. If you're not going to South Australia, you really wouldn't be that motivated to come to Wimmer. But covid has changed that perspective. I think the Wimmeras got a lot to offer now. I've you know, I'm learning about the área, and the more I learned about the more passionate I become about the area. There's a lot of untapped experiences in the Wimmer. Michael: What are some of those Chan? Just to shout them out because... Chan: So for example these quirky historical elements that people don't know about. So for example, there's a church at Pella church (https://pellaviarainbow.lutheran.org.au/) just north of Rainbow. You're driving 15 minutes out. You're going through the woods, you're surrounded by nothing but just woods, and also you hit upon a Lutheran Church in the middle of the woods, which they would have had to use horse and carriage to get to. And when you get in there, you discover 19th century, pipe organ from Germany. Michael: Wow. Chan: You talk about a Pipe organ that you saw in a bigger church, but this is in a small Church in the woods. It's just the journey to get, there's quite a kind of amazing, and then when you get there, the tour guide starts playing Bach on the organ. It's like a bit of Phantom of the Opera in the middle of the bush. It's just amazing. I guess that juxtaposition between extremities of distance and in having a church in the middle of the woods with a 19th-century pipe organ. It's just fascinating. It was just an example where, you know, you can have droopy experiences and also the architecture for the towns. You know the 19th-century architecture. And because I've always been drawn to architecture, I quite find them to be gems. Michael: Yeah. And still affordable? is that...Chan: Yes. Compared to other country areas of Victoria, it's probably the most affordable area. And look at the distance. Michael: Yeah.Chan: But the Renaissance I think that we're experiencing now is changing that. And I mean, people are coming to Dimboola and the Wimmera. Michael: I think the whole, you know, there's there is a shift going on and what was too far away, people are reassessing that now because, you know, they want experiences and creating destinations. You've talked a lot about this new shop opening, but also, you know, the Wimmera River, the little desert. I mean, there's a lot that you can access from around the place where we found that glorious. So, I know you've also, you know, in moving to a from Melbourne to a small town with a population of I think it's a thousand or maybe... Chan: It's floating between fourteen hundred and seventeen hundred.Michael: Okay.Chan: depending on what part of the internet you come across. Michael: So that's a big move. How else have you got involved? I know there's a, I think there's a festival that you're behind. Do you want to talk about it? Just the effort you made to get involved with locals. Chan: Yeah. Michael: So to kind of broaden out what Dimboola had to offer through, I mean it's lots to offer already but you know you're kind of adding to the mix with this Festival.Chan: So it was a bit of a shock coming here to a small town on one level because it's a smaller community where everyone knows each other. So in Melbourne, you can be Incognito and Anonymous and you can float through society with no one knowing you or knowing your neighbors, but here, everyone knows your business. So because, you know, we bought a significant building in town. Everyone's going to know people. The building of course, so they're already watching us, you know what I'm saying? So what they do is... So I guess for Melbournians, just be mindful that you will be noticed. You do have to make a, I guess, your behavior needs to be changed as well. It's such a small knitted Community. Everyone knows each other and most likely are related to each other. So be careful what you say as well because it travels small things, you know, spread very quickly. So having said that, we broke the ice with the town, by having a special event, by having it photo re-creation of the bank opening in 1909. So, in the year that we moved, we were a hundred and ten years later that we took residents of the building. So, there's a photograph that we discovered of all the men, male customers were invited to the opening of the bank. So we felt like we really want to create this shot because it hasn't been done before. Or after a hundred ten years. So we broke the ice by inviting the locals to come to participate in that photo Recreation. Two hundred and fifty turned up. Mostly older people which was really great because I appreciate history and heritage. They had such a good time. They gave us the best event of the Year 2019. From the town community and also a letter from the CEO of the council. So, so that was really good. So we broke the ice and from there. We open the shop and we're also been active in the community, you know, and also, what people said is that they really like the fact that we're really down to earth in genuine. So that's really important to I think we've been moved to a country town. So, you know, defeating, just be down to earth and that's what we are. And that's how we managed to do. So, because of that, over the years, which is only two and a half years. I dunno, I think people like what we're doing. And so whatever we do seems to awaken people's awareness of certain elements. So I guess the steampunk event is one we're pushing the envelope. Because not many people around here know what steampunk is. So and I know that steampunk festivals around the world in other country towns have been extremely successful. So it clearly works in the United States, New Zealand, the UK, and also different parts of Australia. Steampunk really lends itself to country towns and farming communities, because they can upcycle and make wonderful contraptions through the materials. So, after this first event, I think all the farmers will learn what steampunk is. And I think they will embrace it because it's aesthetically quite beautiful. It won't date, and it's quite quirky. And I think the Herald Sun described Dimboola as a town that has got an eccentric flavor. So let's embrace that and I think steampunk lends itself to that.Michael: Yeah, so so we are coming up to the end. But can you just quickly describe what steampunk is and when this Festival, all things going well with Covid, etc., when it will be? Chan: Okay. September the 4th the day before Father's Day. Yeah, and steampunk is really Victoriana, combining Victoriana and your imagination. So another way of saying is 19th-century aesthetics lending with science fiction. So it's a literary genre that stems from science fiction. So you imagine Jules Verne, the time machine, that sort of period that romanticized version of the 19th-Century imagination with science fiction is steampunk. So you're imagining the past having the technology that we have now, but still with the materials of the 19th century. Michael: Yeah okay. And there's lots of raw material to work within some of these older towns, so... Chan: That's right. Michael: That's great. Hey Chan, thank you so much for your time today. It was really a very personal insight and I thank you for that because one of the things that we want to encourage is people into small business and you've done that. And also this program goes out through Regional Australia through the Community Radio Network and a lot of people have now considering moving and you've done that and I really admire what you've done. And I hope people listening in will also take some inspiration from it. It's a great story. So we wish you well at the Dimboola Imaginarium and I can speak from firsthand experience it so it's a hell of a great place to visit and worth lots to do around the area. So well worth the time and effort. Thanks again, Chan. Chan: Thanks, Michael. Thanks for the chat.Michael: So that is all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired bringing you small business experts, and other small business owners and hearing their stories. Do you want to listen to any past episode? Jump onto your podcast platform of choice and search Small Business Banter. There you will find a diverse and fascinating collection of small business owners and experts openly discussing and sharing their experiences.For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today, or to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. And it would be great to have you tune in the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[END] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@richardthomas is #cofounder of @wormlovers where he is a #wormfarmer #breedingworms and the business supplies, services and educates on everything to do with #composting #nutrientcycling #soil #worms. He also co-founded @Boogiefestival #musicfestival (after being integrally involved with another iconic festival @bigdayout ) and @treecredsRichard went to #Artschool @sydneycollegeofthearts in Sydney and evolved an #artpractice, which was around very much focused on #ecology #conservation #sustainability #environmentalism. The businesses were also built, ground up, on the same  foundational principles. It's a ripping chat with someone who does care, you'll hear it the way he speaks and see it in what has done - in the episode Richard talks about;#lovetheworklovetheworldhis self described 'accidental but sort of interesting journey'modestly exhibiting his art in 15 countriesthe profound experience of #livingofftheland in #Tasmania as a teenagerstarting new businesses with great friends on #enviromental #sustainable values  #homecompostingwhy #earthworms #soilhealthare just so fundamentally important to all of us the #Covid19 induced struggles for #smallbusinessownerstrying to find #balance between home and workwy it's time to #exit  #businesssale  @wormlovers the support he feels when talking to other #businessownersA full transcript is below.@kerrcapitalWelcome to another edition of Small Business Banter. This morning, I've got in Richard Thomas. Richard has a really diverse business background. We're going to chat to him about these businesses. He’s a founder of @Wormlovers which is-- he's a worm farmer, and we'll talk about recycling, environmentalism. He's also co-founder of the @BoogieMusicFestival and a founder of another @Treecreds, which is a carbon reduction project. It's a really interesting mix, but firstly, welcome in Richard Thomas. Great to have you in our studio.Richard Thomas: Thanks, Michael. Great to be here. Michael: Perhaps you just want to expand a little bit on those three ventures that you've been involved in, and then we can pick up a couple of conversations around them.Richard: I guess, starting off with the Wormlovers, really, it's been something I've been doing for about 20 years I was a sole trader until around 8 years ago, and then we established it as a Pty Ltd business. But, nearly 20 years of #breedingworms and doing everything to do with #composting and #nutrientcycling and #soil and #worms, from that perspective. #Boogiefestival started about 15 years ago, and that came out of my experience. I worked for 20 years on the #BigDayOut festival as a kind of art coordinator and then, that evolved into running a part of the festival with a stage and various other activities, working in the core team of the Big Day Out from its inception, right through until when it finished, I think about 6 or 7 years ago. And through that... what my journey has very much been things have just come up. I don't know how much planning has gone into it. It's just sort of like being somehow an accidental but sort of interesting journey. Originally, I went to #Artschool in Sydney and then evolved an art practice, which was around very much focused on #ecology and #conservation, #sustainability, #environmentalism. So, these other projects that are being involved in have always been related to that sort of foundational, sort of vocation, I guess, as an #artist. And I had a quite long career as a practicing artist and showed in my work in probably about 15 different countries and had commercial galleries and was pretty much active in that world for 20, probably nearly 30 years. Michael: Wow.Richard: The Big Day Out was a gig that provided me with enough income to sort of subsidize my art practice. So, that was what was going on for most of those years. And then, I've always had a really strong interest in, I guess, #nature and #naturalprocesses. When I was a teenager after I left school, I went live with my uncle down in #Tasmania. This is in the late 70s, early 80s. He was #livingofftheland there, I guess you'd call him a-- he’s not a sort of a hippie-ish looking guy, but I guess some of his values are very much about #backtoearth, you know, #growinghisownfood and he and his family had #drafthorses, they had their own #sheep, they're making their own clothes at a huge #veggiegarden, they would make #beehives, they were #makingtheirownbooze and generally living off the land. So that was a really influential experience for me.Michael: You lived there as a teenager, or?Richard: Yeah. I think when I was about 17, for a couple of years I lived down there. So that was a really profound experience for me. At that time, there were a lot of people, maybe similar to what's going on at the moment. It was a lot of people who were just fed up with the mainstream world, and people moving down to Tasmania, a lot of young people, people from different parts of the world. You know, the land was cheap and there were a lot of people who were building their own house, going #offgrid, and stuff, which is now sort of becoming again. It's coming back into the mainstream a bit more, but at that time, there was a real kind of sense of movement happening.Michael: Yeah.Richard: So that's the kind of background.Michael: So, you talked about-- it's not opportunistic, but you know, there were things that piqued your interest, say, you'd go after it?Richard: Yeah, that's right. And so, when I went to Art school in Sydney, I'd already had that experience, living in the country and being really connected to all these natural processes. So, that's sort of carried on into my developing art practice. Michael: What art were you producing, Richard? Richard: Well, I went to @SydneyCollegeoftheArts, which is an incredible place and an incredible time to be doing that. The '80s were a really incredible time to be an artist. So many ideas and so many different streams going on. Painting sort of returned. There were also a lot of conceptual ideas around and it gave me the opportunity to try out a whole lot of different media and different approaches, but always around sort of nature, somehow connected to nature. So, initially, I went to do photography, and then I jumped into the painting department, and then I moved on later to more installation work, even some video work. But mostly, painting and installation work, and often using natural materials or landscape paintings, photography, yeah.Michael: It really does sound like that experience living off the grid in Tazi[?] was quite formative for you because I think Wormlovers is a recycling environmental business wholly, but I think Boogie Fest was really differentiated itself based on its environmentalism credentials. Is that right?Richard: Yeah.Michael: You know, you were really looking hard to tread lightly on the earth.Richard: Yeah, absolutely. And I think... you know, I started Boogie Festival with some really great friends who are-- a lot of those relationships that evolved out of the Big Day Out, and we used to go to a lot of festivals together, and so, we just came up with this idea of doing a festival. But it's always been a passion of mine to consider the environmental impact of everything you're doing, to me, that's a sort of fundamental principle that I think everyone should adopt, really. So, it's not just a sort of sense of going. We've got this guy; he's doing a bit of green stuff on the side. And then we'll just keep doing what we're doing because we're sort of taking care of the environmental stuff. I think that sort of attitude often with some businesses, I think, with some corporations, in particular, can be a bit of a problem because it's just the sideline, the guys that are doing the sustainability stuff. But with Boogie, we tried to really embed that with things, like we introduced--- We got rid of #disposablecups, so we had plastic pots for all the beers. We brought in #onsitecomposting, we'd set up a whole sorting operation site and[?] all of that to increase our recycling. And we did a carbon offset, I think that that was through Treecreds, which is another enterprise that I'd started. And the idea of that was that when you came to the festival as a punter, you would be able to purchase a #carbonoffset for your #travelemissions to the festival.Michael: Yeah. So rather than paying not lip service, necessarily, but like as you say, the bigger groups, bigger companies might have sustainability area. Richard: Yes.Michael: Boogie Festival is ground up. The whole thing is built around a few core values, one of them which is environmentalism. So, you mentioned, people-- and as we've interviewed on this program, quite a few people involved in, I guess, activating #regionalareas and more people are moving to the regions. But do you think environmentalism is at risk at the moment? Or do you think it's the best opportunity it has ever been for people to reconsider how they treat the environment? It's strange times we're in.Richard: Yes, it’s certainly strange times. And I think it's a complex question because there's so much that is going on, and there's so much that isn't going on that needs to happen, really. I feel like these certain parts of the world that-- or sectors of the economy or demographics or whatever you want to call it, people who are really moving ahead quickly with this stuff. And I feel like there's a big lag there as well. So, it's hard to put your finger on it and generalize about it because there's so much activity, but I still feel a little bit like, you know, sustainability is something that people are talking about, generally more than they're actually doing. And I think part of the problem is that we've fundamentally lived in a world, which is all of the systems were built up in the structure of the global economy. And the way that the industrialized world works is it's heading in one direction, which is unsustainable. So, it's like turning around a gigantic supertanker, you know?Michael: Yes.Richard: Yeah, it's a long process, and we have to change people's attitudes as well as their behavior.Michael: [crosstalk] And you've had a really good crack at doing that, and as a businessperson as well, right? Through Boogie Festival, which I think, sadly, that we've had the last Boogie Festival we're going to have, are we? Is-- Richard: Yeah. Well, there might be another festival but we're just not sure this time, obviously, stating the obvious. But you know, a situation with events is so uncertain. It's already become-- the game's changed a lot from the days when something like the Big Day was happening. Anyway, it's much harder to sell tickets that the costs are going up in the event industry. There are a lot more #compliance and #hurdles and complexity and cost that goes into putting on these events while, you know,-- and it's harder to sell tickets so it's a much more difficult #businessmodel to maintain. So--Michael: It seems like there's maybe a move to these micro[?] owner, it's like called micro festivals, but smaller, more niche festivals, I mean, plenty of people are getting to the regions. But, look on today's episode of Small Business Banter, we're talking right now with Richard Thomas.Richard, another way you've kind of lived out and your sort of core personal values, I think, is through Wormlovers. Do you just want to kind of give us a snapshot of what Wormlovers does right now?Richard: Yes. So, we started Wormlovers, as I was saying, about 8 years ago, and really, there were a number of reasons for setting it up. And I guess the core, the main sort of motivation was really #my passion and my #businesspartner, Gail Davidson's passion for what we were doing. And the sort of-- and also, the sense that there was a time, it felt like it was the right time to do this. I'd had this idea in the back of my mind for a long time of sort of specializing in worm farming and home composting and developing an enterprise which would kind of be part education but part commercial. So, the vision part of it is really important. We do, you know, we have to educate-- we feel like part of what we're doing in Wormlovers is kind of inspiring people to change the world with a worm farm. Michael: I think, one that your tagline or motto is "Love the worm, love the world"?Richard: Yes. And you know, I feel like there's this fascinating thing happening that maybe a lot of people are not aware of, you know, that the species like the worm, the #compostworm, or the #earthworm is so fundamental to our lives. We wouldn't be here without soil, without healthy soil because all of our food comes and all the higher creatures on earth really are dependent on the ecology of the soil. It regulates climate, it's connected to water - the water cycle, it's connected to the nutrient cycle in particular, of cycling nutrients from food and #organicwaste back into the soil, being replenished or back into a worm farm or a compost bin and turning back into healthy nutrients to create more food and more plants and more wellbeing. So, we see ourselves as a vehicle to provide the ability for individuals, both in a home, but also across the board of anyone who eats food. From schools to cafes to councils to, you know, you name it, anywhere where there's food waste produced is a potential site to engage in this process, this incredible process of setting up a worm farm and cycling your organics on the spot, so--Michael: I can hear the purpose of the connection with that core purpose and in the way you talk, but it's taking on a lot to-- You know, when you talk about having a business that is commercial and also educational, it's a big task, isn't it?Richard: Yeah.Michael: To educate through your business, a very honorable one. Wormlovers operates out of a precinct, currently where you've got. It's in... is it Werri...?Richard: Yeah, Werribee.Michael: Werribee, yeah. And so, as part of a complex of a few #environmentalbusinesses down there, but you are farming worms and you're reselling related equipment for households and for small businesses, I guess?Richard: Yeah, that's right. So just to sort of summarize that, these different aspects of the business. And I guess our core business is really our #onlineshop. The operations yard is really there to support the online sales, but also, any commercial work we're doing. We leased some land from @MelbWater out of the #Westerntreatmentplant, and that's where we actually breed our worms, and there are some byproducts from that process. We have big beds that where we breed the worms and we feed them on a mixture of different #feedstocks, #manures, and #coffeegrounds, and #organicwaste. And then, we package those worms up. We also store our inventory of composting products worm farms, such as we import a worm farm from #NewZealand in container loads, called the @hungrybin, which had been probably the best design worm farm that we've ever come across. We have a range of accessories and things that we sell as well. So that yard, basically, supports our online part of the business through online sales. And then, we also do sort of outreach work where we-- and sadly, with the lockdown, this has been one of our struggles as it is for so many small businesses. There's a lot of that work that involved us going out on site. You say got going into a restaurant or a school or a council to set up worm farms and educate people on site.Michael: You just haven't had the opportunities? Richard: No, we just did-- All of those big facilities have just been shut down or so restricted. So, what's happened there is that immediately, people are not eating food because they're not at all on-site. So, there's almost no food right on those sites. There's no--Michael: Everyone's at home. Richard: Yeah, so that's been a real struggle for us because part of what we would do is going out-- Well, particularly around, obviously around Melbourne, and help people set up and troubleshoot their worm farms. We also had a number of contracts; our biggest client was the @cityofMelbourne. With the lockdown, they had to shut down all of their sites and so we lost that contract to actually help. We had about half a dozen sites, and we do monthly or regular visits to work with the staff and just keep the worm farms in good health. We also had gardens that we're managing, so often, we'd set up really high yield #containergardens and some of these gardens are on #rooftops and in schools and in line-wise around Melbourne and community centers and things like that. So anyway, all of that work was lost with the lockdown sadly so that's been one of our struggles.Michael: Yeah, as you said, it's affected so many businesses and so many people and really forces you to rethink the way you do business. And, you know, we all need that inspiration when things are particularly tough, so personally, with Wormlovers, you're probably getting to the point where that's seen natural cycle, you move on...?Richard: Yeah. I think after 8 years of just eating, sleeping, as is for almost small business owners, you know, it just takes over your life.Michael: It can completely dominate, particularly, when someone like you who is so connected, enthusiastic, with the reason the businesses is there.Richard: Yeah. [crosstalk] No, you're absolutely right. And I think there are positives and negatives about that, being so connected to what you're doing because you've got to have a passion, you've got to have belief, and you've got to really get your up in the morning and believe in what you're doing. But at the same time, I think it's probably healthy to be able to maintain some kind of distance as well from what you're doing. And that's, I think, one of the struggles, I think that trying to find that balance can be difficult.Michael: I don't know in the work I do that that many people get that right. You know, that maybe you get it right for a period of time and it's certainly not to say you shouldn't be aiming to find that a bit of a boundary between the two but, you know, sometimes, you can't help yourself.Richard: That's right, yeah. And I'm sure I'm not alone. I'm sure these small business owners all over the country that have the same struggle of sort of, you know, they're still thinking about it late at night, you wake up in the morning, it's the first thing you think about, and just the ongoing, you know, it just doesn't stop, does it? So--Michael: It doesn't stop and I think there comes a time-- you know, for you, there's a time when you start to think about perhaps a #newventure, a new pathway. So, in your case, I think you're looking at a venture in Tasmania?Richard: Yeah, that's right. So, what I'm looking to do over the next couple of years is to basically work towards, maybe exiting Wormlovers or looking for a joint venture or reconfiguring it in some way or another. And obviously, putting a lot of thought into how that might manifest.Michael: Yeah.Richard: And then, looking at this project, down in Tassie, so I've had a share in a beautiful spot down on the #MerseyRiver in northern Tasmania, an old farm. And we're looking at sort of developing that as a sort of #sanctuary or #retreat. It'll be a multipurpose, sort of location for potentially-- It's got incredible #fishing there[?], so for as a fishing lodge, but also making it available for sort of events of one sort or another. We've had a couple of weddings. We've had some sort of parties down there, like 50th birthday or whatever. But also, for things like, maybe meditation, yoga, retreats, maybe somewhere for, you know, any kind of group to really go and be in this really beautiful natural environment surrounded by wilderness on this river. It's got a really incredible sort of vibe. So that's sort of what I'm looking at next, it's working on that. And that part of that will also be probably incorporating a lot of these sustainable, environmental kind of themes that I've been working on.Michael: They're not going to go away from you, right? Those--Richard: No [laughing]Michael: It sounds like, also Tazi, you spent some formative time there, and you’re kind of going back there. Richard: Yeah, it's like a full cycle. Yes. Nice. Michael: Yeah. Just in closing, Richard, it's so wonderful to talk to business owners, that's what we're about on Small Business Banter, and sharing that. There's a pathway for you to move on from Wormlovers and on to something else, but I'm just keen in the last minute to kind of if you got some sort of tips or ideas or people that influenced you heavily in the way you go about running your day-to-day business that other owners could come[?] refer to.Richard: Yeah. Well, I'm probably not the-- I probably don't-- maybe I'm not having a very clear way that I look at this., but I do tend to talk to other business owners. I think that's probably my main source of sort of understanding, and I'm always intrigued by how other businesses work. So, I'm always trying to find out, "How does that thing work?" You know, you see something that you've never heard of, and you go, "That's a business? That's fascinating. How did someone get that turn into a business?" I think that's part of the-- but I'm kind of inspired by people like @David Holmglen who started the #Permaculture movement. Obviously, not from a business perspective, but I guess I'm interested in the philosophy of working with nature and how sustainability works, so I do a lot of research in that area. So yeah, I guess it's--Michael: I think the, you know, talking to other business owners-- as long as you're talking to somebody, right?Richard: Yeah.Michael: Ideally, some [inaudible] can kind of, you know, because it is a battle, and it's been hard, through the last 12, 18 months, especially. And sharing with other owners, which is kind of like this program, we often get on owners and they talk about their successes and their challenges. So, I think that's as good as any, you know, for other people listening in, talk to owners, like other owners like Richard does.Richard, we're out of time. I just wanted to say thank you very much for sharing that fascinating background, that crossing over environmentalism, music, business. It's wonderful to hear. I really appreciate your time and I wish you well as you kind of move down to that next venture in Tazi and maybe pass on Wormlovers to somebody else to take up the fight. Richard: Yeah, great. Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate it, it's great to talk to you. Michael: Alright. Thanks, Richard. Richard: Thanks. Bye-bye. See you.Michael: So that's all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired, bringing new small business experts and other small business owners and hearing their stories and their experiences. For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today, or just to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com or find Small Business Banter on Facebook or Instagram. It'd be really great to have you tune in at the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[End] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@philmeddings  is joint #ChiefExecutive of @BintaniAustralia - a leading Australian supplier of #craftbrewing #ingredients. He's also #co-owner and/or #nonexecutivedirector of other #businesses #familybusinesses including @bentspokebrewing @bay13brewery @konvoykegsPhil left @kpmg in 2010 to join Bintani which had been started by his father in 1995. Since then he's become immersed in the #craftbrewing industry in Australia, and more recently, via @bay13brewery the #USAIn our discussion Phil talks about;leaving the #charteredaccounting profession for what really drove him - the #businessworldhis approach to starting #newbusinesses#businesspartnershipsthe critical importance of #sharedvalues and #sharedunderstandingoperating as a #familybusinesswhere to for the #australiancraftbrewing industryin partnership launching an @aussiebrewpub in the #USA and how they plan to differentiate in a #competitivemarket with many great #craftbrewers ("less cheese" is a big clue)how you can't wind back #taste #beermoments and  why that will continue to drive the craftbrewing industry Below is a full transcript of our discussion. Hi there, it's @MichaelKerr and I'm presenting @smallbusinessbanter.A healthy #micro and #smallbusiness sector means a successful economy and a way more vibrant society. @smallbusinessbanter is about helping #regionalbusinessowners to better prepare for the current challenges, but also for the next stage of business success. I'm @MichaelKerr. The founder of @KerrCapital and we advise business owners.Each week, I interview a fellow #smallbusinessowner or an #expert and they share their stories, their lived experiences, including the wins, and the losses and overall their best advice to help you, the listener, get the most you can from your own #small business. @smallbusinessbanter is brought to you from the Studio's of 104.7 @GippslandFM and is heard right across Australia on the #communityradionetwork. Thanks also to @KerrCapital supporters of the show.Kerr: Good morning and welcome to another edition of @smallbusinessbanter. I'm @MichaelKerr, the host of @smallbusinessbanter. In the house with me today is @PhilMeddings, the Joint #ChiefExecutive of @BintaniAustralia. He's going to explain what Bintani does, but it's in and around the craft of the brewing industry. He's also co-owner of @BentSpokeBrewingCompany in #Canberra. He's a #nonexecutivedirector of another couple of entities and he's also a #cofounder of @Bay13Brewery in #Miami #Florida. So it's fantastic to have you in Phil. Firstly, welcome.Phil Meddings: Thanks for having us some. Yeah. I'm looking forward to thisKerr: Same, yeah. Look, do you want to give us a couple of minutes? You've got a pretty extensive CV and but a heavy involvement in the #craftbrewingindustry, which has been going ballistic for the last five to 10 years. So, if you could just give us a couple of minutes on the portfolio. Meddings: Yeah, no problem. Look, I started with the #familybusiness in 2010. But it's a business my dad started in '95 called Bintani. When he started it, even up until the point when I joined in 2010, it was a fairly small sort of business, supplying #ingredients into the #breweries, into #craft breweries, so that was in 2010. Since that time, quite a bit has happened including an explosion in #craftbeer. My dad's #retired and along the way in between we've sort of started a whole lot of other, and become involved in a lot of other, a lot of other businesses, most have sort of got a relationship with craft brewing and #beverage and #alcohol, I guess. But they're not all, they're not all ingredients or they're not all production. So, it's been an interesting few years. Kerr: Yes. Oh, that you’ve gone up and down the #supplychain, I guess, because you're in retail with BentSpoke as an example and maybe right back to supplying and #servicingkegs as another.Meddings: Yeah, I can give you a bit of a timeline on it. If you like it, Kerr: Yeah, please do.Meddings: We started with the ingredients and they really weren't many breweries. But as the breweries increased, we supplied more and more and my dad really put together a fantastic business built around #simplicity and I guess #transparency and #honesty with the #customers. So- Kerr: And off the back of a pretty strong #passion for #homebrewing.Meddings: Exactly. He was passionate about brewing, which meant that he explored different ingredients. He had his eyes open for different products to sell. Then he'd looked after the customers and it was kind of a simple as that. As the industry grew the business grew and then other suppliers started coming to us to say, "Can you sell our ingredients?" But, probably in around 2011-2012, we come into the business from 10 or 11 years in #charteredaccounting at @KPMG. And I came into the business and the accounting side of work. It didn't really take up very much time because it was so small. I think we only had obviously six employees, I'd be six. So, we're just left a little bit of free time to kind of consider other opportunities and we always get excited about these opportunities. And one day, we were talking with a really good brewer up in Canberra called @RichWatkins, and he was working as an #employee brewer. The conversation just started about setting up our own thing and that took a bit of time to get going. But the #BrewPub @BentSpoke opened in 2014 and has just grown enormously since that time in that partnership. We were still running our ingredients business, but we were heavily involved in the sort of the back office in the strategy side of growing Bentspoke with Rich and his partner Tracy. Kerr: And Rich was a really highly regarded brewer in his own right?Meddings: He was. He'd been brewing for a long time and he'd been a longtime customer of ours. We had a great relationship and a lot of #sharedvalues and knowledge. It was a kind of an easy decision to start this thing together. We didn't really know where it would go. It wasn't about a vision of a company of a certain size. It was really just about the excitement of #startingsomethingnew. And there's a few other businesses that we started around the same time. We started a company, #leasingequipment, #leasingbeerkegs, stainless steel beer kegs. So, we started that one in 2012. that business had a requirement to actually repair kegs as well because a brewery would lease kegs for a while. They would send them back and we would need to do a bit of refurbishment, changing some of the seals and cleaning it up. It kind of led to starting another company in servicing the kegs. So I guess if that's-Kerr: You're seeing opportunities and you really, rather than letting them go, you're capturing them and going after them. Meddings: Yeah, we did. I mean, @BentSpoke made sense, it was in #Canberra and it was always going to be a separate entity with another partner. But the keg businesses, was sort of different from the ingredients business. So we always treated those separately and they grew life on their own as well. We #sold both of those keg businesses now but that has lead to an involvement with the @Konvoykegs business, which you mentioned in the introduction. Kerr: I think the newest venture is @Bay13 in which is an #AustralianBrewpub in #Florida. Meddings: Yeah. So, Bay 13 is pretty awesome. Kerr: Iconic name. Meddings: Yeah, you know, it's the #Larrikin element isn't it? It kind of goes well with the concept, the idea of drinking beer, and summer I guess, warm weather. I worked with a guy called @NickSharp at @KPMG and he ended up in Miami through another job and we just stayed mates from 2005 onwards. And at one point, it just came up about a #Brewpub. So, we firstly taking a step back, we travel to #America all the time with work and we obviously spent a lot of time in the brewpubs over there. I just sort of felt that there was a bit of a gap for an #Australianstyle #BrewPub. I've had this question asked a few times, like what is an Australian-style Brewpub and what ways an Australian-style Brew Pub and why it's different to an American, it's because we feel we're offering customers a better food experience, high-quality beer, and #Americanbrewpubs have very high-quality be generally as well, so that's not a differentiator, but we want to do beers showcasing #Australianingredients. We want to have a better food offering, so less burgers and more Australian sort of café, a little bit healthier, bit less cheese, maybe.Kerr: That's it. Australia's highly regarded for isn't food? Meddings: Yeah. It is more into café and coffee. I think if you look around #Melbournecafes and you look at sort of the quality of the #fitouts, the quality of the #menudesign, and the experience for someone going out for breakfast is a mix of really informal but high-quality experience. That's kind of what we wanted to do at Bay 13 in America, it is to bring the Australian fun informality but at a high-quality level. And see whether it resonated, and actually does provide something different- Kerr: Yeah. So it's a little combination of offerings, not just beers pretty competitive and pretty personal, I guess. And so the food offering is something that you say is a differentiator. It looks like it's also that in partnering again with someone on the ground, as you did with Rich in Canberra, that seems to be a part of your model. Meddings: It's ended up that way. I guess it's kind of how you can, I mean we're all the same in that, we literally can't do everything ourselves. So, partnering with somebody is the way we've been able to #expand and #grow. It's not about growing, it's about pursuing interests really. We've been able to pursue things that we think a fun and good opportunities by #partnering with people. It wasn't always that way but that's how we've ended up. Kerr: Yeah. So in between @Bay13 what was the last “great” #aussiebeer? Was it all the way back to #Fosters?Meddings: In the U.S.? Kerr: Yeah. Like there's been some really high in #coffeepioneers from Australia going to America and paved the way. But are you out there on your own in terms of an Australian led owned business in the U.S.Meddings: I would say we are, definitely. I'm not aware of anyone doing what we're doing. The only sort of person or whatever that comes close is #LittleCreatures. Little Creatures opened a Brewpub in #SanFrancisco in around 2019. But, I think Little Creatures is owned by @Lion, obviously. @Lion purchased a really big craft brewery in U.S. called @New Belgium. They've rebranded their # littlecreatures Brewpub. Kerr: Let's say Bay 13 remains the carrying the flag. Because we're pretty, we're pretty pro Aussie aren't we?. I just want to go back on a couple of things Phil. I could say it's an amazing mix of businesses. And you know, up and down the supply chain, craft brewing has been going ballistic for the last five or ten years. But for you personally, I think you left @KPMG, you know, a successful career in chartered accounting with one of the #bigfour firms KPMG. For you personally, what was the motivation in going into the #familybusiness? And what did you bring from that professional experience to a small business that was maybe good and maybe not so good? Meddings: Yeah. In hindsight, when I look back on it, being at KPMG was probably the mismatch for me. I ended up being chartered accounting by following. I did #commerce at University because I like business. From then on, it was really about kind of taking the steps that are put in front of you. So, not really thinking it through too much. So I ended up, commerce, kept things general, and did accounting. And then went into a big four. I was lucky enough to sort of getting taken on into a Big Four firm with pretty average Uni results. Then I kind of got into this vortex of doing chartered accounting and it wasn't really was my passion or what drove, what I got excited about. What I was excited about always was being in business, and just the kind of enjoyment that comes out of #plantingtheseed and watching something #grow. I know it's a bad cliché but that's exactly how I feel about businesses. So-Kerr: It's a lesson there for a lot of younger professionals or younger people, generally, that it's pretty hard to say whether that experience is invaluable, but, you know, maybe earlier might have been better for you, just to get out of there.Meddings: I mean, I had business ideas. I was messing around with a couple of people doing. The funny one is when I was probably 18, there used to be a #Gilbeysgindistillery in #Moorabbin and they close this big beautiful sight, and we saw an opportunity to do a #ClimbingGym. So, these 18-year-old guys ringing up landlords and trying to sort of get their climbing gym together and I wasn't really built for rock climbing, but I could see it as a growing sport, a good opportunity and we never got it off the ground. But I mean that was pretty-Kerr: That's an indicator of your real inner passion for business and opportunities to see that. Just by the way, on today's edition of @smallbusinessbanter we're talking with @PhilMeddings, who amongst other things is the joint Chief Executive of Bintani Australia. Sorry, Phil. I cut you off there about that potential business opportunity around climbing. Meddings: Yeah. Well, you talked about KPMG and what I got out of it, there's no doubt that working in an environment like KPMG or a chartered firm kind of #changesyourhorizons. It shows you what's possible, and in those firms work with so many interesting businesses that all have a different story. They have a different starting point and different endpoint. Some go well, some go poorly. You meet different people. But sort of, when I came to Bintani, the thing that was very helpful was two things. Probably the horizon, like seeing what you can do and what can be done and not having a low approach, not having a low ambition, but having quite big ambition where you can take something. Secondly, it's sort of dealing with #banks. You've got that degree of familiarity, with #banks, #lawyers, #financiers, those sorts of things, that just make it a lot easier. You've read #leaseagreements, you've read #bankingdocuments. Some of those things can be quite a barrier. Once their second nature, once some of the fear factors taken away, that, you don't even think about it again. I have seen people that are quite intimidating and quite a barrier to get through some of those structural things. Kerr: Yeah, and you become familiar. The big difference, of course, is that you're putting your or your family's money into a venture. And so, maybe you read those documents with a little bit more intensity when you're personally on the line. Meddings: Yeah, I think you do. I think you definitely do. I think you do everything. We certainly didn't start with any money at all and just cautiously and carefully went from one thing to another. We've never taken, I mean that's probably another part of now. Now, I see I look at how other people #startbusinesses and how they go from step one to step three, to step five. I feel as though in my pathways have been a lot more incremental. It's been step one step, step 1.5, step 2. It's been a little bit of a slower build. It's one of the things I think about now, quite a bit, is that the different approaches to business. Some people are very bold and I think what I'm talking about really is being prepared to incur operating losses and to fund the losses for a period of time to grow scale and to get their business going. My experience wasn't, and my   kind of natural inclination, was a lot more "Start smaller, prove the growth, see revenue growth, see profitability and grow more slowly and more cautiously." I don't think either approach is wrong. I think there is pitfalls and strengths to both. So now, I try to learn a bit from taking a few more #calculatedrisks, I guess. Kerr: Yeah, and you're still operating as a family. Your work, you said your dad's retired from the business only quite recently. Your brother works operate in the business to some degree in these ventures as a family unit who runs a couple of businesses. Does that-Meddings: Yeah. I don't know whether, probably every family business is unique in the way they run. I certainly think and feel that the way we run is unique. From daydot I was talking to my dad about business, I don’t know how far to go back but even before any of the ingredients business even started, there was a business opportunity in China that never came up. That was when I was midway through high school. It's always been about that. But, joining the family business in 2010 really kind of put us all together, and the three of us, my dad, my brother, and myself. My brother's very close in age to me. We all had complementary but different skills. Importantly, all sort of shared a very common set of values and understanding. We've got very different approaches to things. And as I said, different skill sets. But that shared understanding and value set meant that we were like some sort of Three-Headed Beast. We could handle a lot more breadth of undertakings because there were the three of us working together. Kerr: It is, as you said, family businesses or small businesses, generally all, can have different ways of operating. You talk about values and I think that's so critically important that you have a shared set of values to guide you with the decisions you make. But to operate now for that length of period and go through the ups and downs,  no doubt of building out those businesses kind of means that you've got a formula that works pretty well for yourselves. Meddings: Well, just interestingly on that. My dad retired probably a year ago. But with #COVID, he wasn't in the office really at all from early last year. So, it's getting on more towards 18 months. With his retirement and not having a contact with the business it's kind of shown a need for my brother and I to reinforce the values and keep them, because we do have different approaches and my old man he's older than me, obviously. So, he's got a different presence in the office from what my brother and I do. So, I think some of those sorts of changes mean that you might have shared values, but you actually have to be conscious of the need to have them flowing through your business at different times and push them through at different times. Sometimes they're very obvious and everybody's on board. But other times you can either hire a couple of people that don't quite get it or you can take your foot, sort of losing focus on making sure people are living the values that have got the business to where it is. So, yeah, so we kind of had a bit of that lately. Kerr: Yeah. It's never set, right? You've got to constantly evolve and pushing it into America's is an incredibly fascinating step for you. I just wanted to cover off a couple of things where we could definitely continue to chat for many more minutes, but I just personally, you take on a lot as co-chief executive. How do you look at the outside of the business? Who do you admire as Business Leaders? And why? To guide you through a fast-growing group of businesses and in a fast-paced industry.Meddings: It was very #strongleaders at KPMG, both probably more external to the business than at KPMG, since I started in the craft and small business and family business area in 2010 there's been less of that type of mentor leader that I really learn or consciously listen to and learn from. But probably, recently, I've been on a very interesting board. I think the #board that I'm on is teaching me a lot because there's different personalities on there, and there's different ways of the board's themselves work. One of the guys who runs a company runs his keg business, and he's probably got that different approach that I was talking about with a bit more risk-taking. Amongst other things, I think I do admire the way his grown businesses and learn a bit from him. Kerr: We recently interviewed @LouiseBroekman from @TheAdvisoryBoardCenter and we're just talking about the critical importance, particularly at the smaller end of small business to engage with people outside of the family, or outside of the day-to-day business management team. To bring in some #externaladvice or #counsel or #perspective. I think the growth and use of #advisoryboards for small businesses is a real area that I'd encourage if you've got an eye to grow your business. Some businesses are happy just being where they are and that's wonderful. But the use of boards, and for you personally, it really does give you a range of new experiences in meeting new people. I guess, I'm also was keen to just close out with a little bit of a commentary from you on where to, for the craft brewing industry in Australia and maybe America because it's been explosive. Where to Phil? Is it gangbusters or is it may be starting to top out? Meddings: It's an irreversible trend. It'll keep growing for some time. I think people want to know where their products coming from. I think the taste is something that you generally don't wind back, once you've explored broader flavors and work them into your lifestyle. It doesn't mean that a basic lager is going to go out of fashion or not exist but it does mean that with the breadth of beers that the craft industry is producing, there's more and more beers that fit moments in your life, #winterstouts, and #porters, and #sourbeers for refreshment. And I think that doesn't go backwards.Kerr: Right? Just to start to parallel wine and #foodmatching. You talked about that in Bay 13. It is going to be the next evolution if you like because there's so many. If you walk into a brewpub or a bottle shop that it is an extraordinary range of beer. All growth, the head for craft beer. Hey Phil, we have unfortunately run out of time. I really appreciate you, the very busy business life that you have, experienced some time for us. It was a great chat. Thank you very much. Phil Meddings from Bintani Australia, amongst other things. Meddings: No problem at all Mike, really enjoyed the chat. Kerr: All right, Phil. You take care. Thank you.Meddings: All right. Thanks.Kerr: So, that's all for today's episode of small business banter. I continue to be inspired by bringing you small business experts and other small business owners and hearing their stories and their experiences.For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today or just to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com or find small business banter on Facebook or Instagram. It'd be really great to have you tuned in at the same time next week for another episode of small business banter.[END] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@TedAllender is a co-owner of ERA Nurseries. Born and raised in #Adelaide, he set up a nursery in Adelaide Hills in the mid-1970s, which operated for 20 years. Set up ERA Nurseries in #Hamilton. Took an increasing interest in the selection and breeding of #eucalypt species for #woodproduction  which grew like topsy turvy because of #managedinvestmentschemes. After they fell over looked to diversify the business into the #manukaindustry. In our discussion Ted gives us both a history and an update on this exciting industry covering; how a university professor discovered by accident that the honey from #manukaplants had a great #therapeuticvalue  and could #sterilisewounds the ongoing #legalbattle over #manukanamingrightshttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-13/honey-wars-summit-manuka-new-zealand-trademark/100064228(think the #French with the battle over the name #Champagne) going to #NewZealand into 2014 and seeing how massive the industry and coming back thinking why aren't we doing this? how all of a sudden #Manuka had become their most valuable native planthow funnily #NZ wasn't saying that  a couple of years before when it was considered a #noxiousplant - that they couldn't get rid of it, that spread once they started clearing the land. the theory that #LeptospermumScoparium got to #NZ via #albatrossdroppings in small quantities and spread through campfires and windrowing to create pasture for sheepthe @LandlineTV program that ran in 2015 that posed the question 'why aren’t we doing something with it?'  and that sent ERA's phones off and crashed the website meeting  academics from @UniversitySunshineCoast and spending time together working collaboratively in order to #commercialise @AustralianLeptospermumhow many of our 163 Leptospermum Australian species (about 50%) were bioactive i.e. had that manuka components;#METHYLGLYOXAL (MG)#dihydroxyacetone (DHA) his work on identifying which species were most likely to thrive in cultivation and his travels to collect plant material and nectarhis current focus on two species (those that are widely distributed geographically) in the business where the industry is in Australia todaythe mismatch between production and consumption  and the estimated global levels of #fakemanukathe need to move to grow plantations and to repurpose #derelictvineyards and #derelictbluegumplantationshow #Leptospermum can be planted in with other crops and work well with #sheepfarming, #turkeyfarminghow the actual product is, is being used by militaries around the world and The @NationalHealthService in England uses it to treat wounds as it works where antibiotics don't work anymorehow #bioactive the very best Australian Leptospermum are the ongoing 'battle' #acrosstheTasman, #acrosstheditchat the other end of the spectrum the 1000s of people that are planting 50, 100, 200, 500 plants  the issues around #bees and #beepopulations globally #Beekeepers  #manuka honeywww.leptospermum.com.auwww.kerrcapital.com.au   Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@JanetBond   is the cofounder of @WattleRoad  which, based on this trend of people #movingtotheregions, was launched to guide to people considering this #lifechange, this #lifestylechange, and inspire them by talking to people who'd already done it. Through those stories, we hope that  people will know  what not to do, and what not to do.  The website is focussed on #regionalbusinesses #regionalproperty #regionalliving.It's best summarised as follows "it's as much about dreams and new beginnings, as it is about finding a house that you will love and a great school for your kids".Prior to that, she had an extensive career in business and commercial journalism, in both regional and capital cities for companies including #newscorp. Common in the publications was advocating for a city or town, helping to be really proactive about making sure it was a great place to live. But in 2019 she left the corporate world to start @WattleRoad after a chance discussion with a close friend who had recently moved to #Japarat - where #RobertMenzies was born. Her friend had escaped lockdown and unexpectedly discovered the real meaning of community;going down to the local post office and being known by her nameeating at the local pub and meeting peopleIn our wide-ranging discussion we cover;why it's no longer people escaping the city but more being attracted by what is on offer in the #regionsthe trends that are showing a return to those days where small towns and towns had their #localbaker, their #localfishmonger, their #localbutcher, their #localbrewer#housingaffordability and #livabilityhow property prices in #regionalaustralia for the first time in 15 years have outperformed capital city pricesrealising that there's a story that wasn't being told about the regions and immersing themselves in itloving what we domaking better decisions on #treechange #seachangehow people in regional towns have got the time to talk, and why they really love talking about where they livehow it's very easy to make connections in regional towns (far more than it was for her in Melbourne and in Sydney)when new in town reaching out to people and asking other newbies where they came from, and chat about what their journey was likesome of the #casestudiesa woman who's moved from Melbourne to Apollo Bay and set up his psychology practice, she took her family, and young teenagers to #ApolloBay from #Brightona #physiotherapist who had a very big practice and was able to exit #Sydneythe #Accountant from the #NorthShore, who got out of Sydney, sold his home he bought the local #cobbler - he went #backtoschool  to learn how to repair shoesSo then she found herself in the middle of the fires in terrible push ties summer that we had. And she realized that while that was something she hadn't contemplated living in a place of risk, she found firsthand how that community pulled together.why the rejuvenation of the regions is actually much but its much about the rejuvenation of people and rejuvenation of our lives and living in a way that perhaps we've always dreamed ofthe key things to do to make making sure it is the right decisionthe value of the local #ChamberofCommercesome of the #ABS #netmigration numbersthe @wattleroad approach of;exploring first, spending time (weekends away) to see if you think might be a good fitlooking at propertylooking at jobs (and how it's a suprise to most people when they hear that there are 66,000 job vacancies in regional Australia at the moment - July 2021)why sometimes people may need to consider starting or acquiring a businesshow the region's do so well in promoting the local produce and the opportunities this is creating;#craftbreweries - why two-thirds are in the regions and how they convert many of old pubs on the market e.g. #smeatonhttps://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-vic-smeaton-135538834how  #rejuvenatedpubs #brewpubs can be part of the community, the #localmeetingplace, and also put the place on the map#forrestbrewery is a great example of thatgreat country pubs, pasties, vanilla slice#awardedbakeries around the country and #australiasgreatestpieswith a heightened awareness of where our #foodproducts come from how the regions are owning #localproduce@thevillageco - based in #regional #NewSouthWales and putting some pretty #tech into #supplychains to #Keepthemoneyinthevillagewanting a different life, wanting to be more connectedwhy #transport #majortrainline is such a really big factor when you're choosing a place to live#camperdown - one of the most beautiful #historicstreetscapes in Victoria #remote work#bandwidth for communication  #NBNthe importance of getting #infrastructure right and why it will follow the #growththe #vicgov putting departments in regional towns to #createjobswww.kerrcapital.com.au Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@KarenLebsanft is the #CEO and #cofounder of @KurrajongKitchen  bakers of traditional #lavosh #flatbreadKaren is a proud #burraburra woman of the #gundungurranationBased in the #lowerbluemountains in #NSW @KurrajongKitchen is #Australianowned and #Australianmade, and has proudly supported #AustralianWheatFarmers since 1993. Karen runs her business successfully but the model is more family & community focussed. She's on a mission to make the brand the 'vegemite of the biscuit isle'!We have an indepth discussion on how it all got started, her people orientated approach to business (this was formed from deep personal experience), where she wants to take the brand and her own next steps. Karen covers;being brought up in #inner-city housing commission by #mum and #grandma after her dad passed how her mother had to go out to get work to feed three kids under threehow her mum and the family, depended so much upon those businesses in the community that employed herunderstanding deeply that those businesses who employed/engaged my mum and impacted my life will  never truly understand the true impactbeing driven to build a successful business that's also community focusedstarting off in the back of a little restaurantPurpose of the product - to support an entertaining and snacking experienceWhat is Lavosh - a little square cracker enjoyed with cheese and dipsbeing a wholesale manufacturer and brand with a team of around 35 people.being proudly #Australianmade with #localingredients and #supportinglocalfarmers wanting to maintain #lpcoalmanufacturing here,  and also support local suppliers being driven to stay, Australian made / Australian owned despite ever present opportunities to go offshore and someone always saying there are  better opportunities to save moneyher desire to keep everything Australian, because of the flowon effect that it can have in rural communitiesher desire to be more community focused, I think that's what COVID actually taught us.why for her being in business isn’t entirely about saving or making moneybeing able to offer people, families, far more extension than just a wagethe many ups and downs in our business over 28 years and the one thing that we drew on very strongly - #buildingthecommunity within a community, the #kurrajongkitchenfamilyblending family and business and how many businesses don't necessarily know how to blend those her language in the business - we're not a team, where not staff or employees, we're a familyhow that language leads onto "it's everybody's responsibility as a family to hold the space, to all play a role and responsibility authorities and accountabilities"where #smallbusiness misses opportunitiesthe #roi in her approach - intangibles that bring community building why there's always challenges when people are involved but knowing that happens in real families as well her greatest learnings over 28 years of making a lot of mistakes;giving people a voice, and treating them like humans, giving them a seat at the tablegiving them a voice to have a say without objection. using a different language at work to empower the person in the skill set that they're doing. And once we empower them, they will learn to own their role. And her first question is " how can I support you in your role?" her most important role, even though she is the #CEO and #co-founder is just is to make them the hero playing to the strengths of the team member (we all have strengths and weaknesses and we've all got  learning opportunity) but if you play to people's strengths they’ll deliver back and they will shinegeting sick of running a business by fear how to do the right thing so everybody will stay and do the right thing, and if not the team weeds those that aren’t doing the right thingnearly losing the business in 2012 - due to external environmental factors that we hadn't accounted for, a little bit like COVID external environmental factors accepting that we "don't know what we don't know" and chasing new knowledgeunderstanding that rather than saying I can’t afford the time, think about it as I can’t afford the risk of not knowingwhy there is no such thing as a  dumb question in businessand if you don’t understand the answer, ask them to go back to basics, and ask it again if you don't get it because it's your business it's your life it's your family that's going to be affected. my vision is to empower leaders and leaders, connect communities and create life changing opportunities across remote regional cities across the nationher emerging role as a mentor to business owners primarily when they get into this chaos stage - when they could be quite a big business and they just don't know they can't see the wood for the trees and they just need somebody to sit and talk to them, mentor, and have a sense of give them, accountability, and confidence in their decision making process to take those next steps.the next stage for the brand of 28 yearsmaking it into an Australian iconic brand - the vegemite of the biscuit islewhy culture eats strategyand finally why small business is and was really important to her mother, her family and communitieswww.kerrcapital.com.au  Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@LesWatson (aka The Timelord)  is a #smallbusiness #coach and #productivity expert.He was inspired by and trained with @DavidAllen who wrote #GettingThingsDone. He uses the #GTDmethodology in his work to improve productivity management, build team leadership & develop communication.Les believes higher productivity is determined by the answers to 2 key questions;1. Where is your focus? 2. What do you want to do today? What do you want to do this year?In our discussion we talk about;Creating a goal and keeping accountable for itThe power of asking 'what do you want to get done today'?Getting it out of your head and onto paper - the power of writing down what you want to get achieved (and avoiding being lost with 1000 other things going around in your head)The key to effective time management being very clear about what you want to do with your timeThe secret to project success;What's the end result?  What does done look like? What are you trying to achieve?Second question whats next?Identifying the telltale signs that signal someone is struggling at a personal level with all the overwhelmThe importance of better productivity to ensure you are keeping agreements with the people around you, the ones you love The need to #lookafteryourself Why you should treat yourself just as importantly as your highest paying client, your most valuable client.Using your diary to create blocks of #metimeWhy with all of us having the same 24 hours it's about how we prioritize the things that are going to give us the biggest returnWhy leaders need to put their own mask on first before helping others.The value of a walk around the block and enough sleepThe simple components of a trusted system - paper or electronic -  where everything gets recorded to ensure it will get doneThe power of having it all in one place Doing a brain dump and enjoying the freedom and creativity that comes in there from thatWhy the shortest pencil is longer than the longest memoryWrite it down! Write it down! Write it down!Creating accountability by meeting with somebody on a daily or weekly basis to discuss what worked, what didn't work is what I'm going to do differently next week.Why you probably can't do it aloneThe key to email managment - the 4 D’s;dodumpdelegate ordecide / diariseMaking the hard decisions for an improvement in productivity Becoming the role model in your business#OneNoteWhere you can get the book “get back an hour every day”  www.getmoretime.com.auwww.kerrcapital.com.au Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@MarnieRoberts from www.winegrapes.com.au  is a #winemaker and champion of the #cooperativeownership  and operating model. As a #businessmodel #coops have been around for a long time but she believes they are in a resurgence. She grew up in #Mildura surrounded by #coops and was really attracted to the ethos of it working for a collective. #winegrapes now has about 120 #growers and is based in #regional #SouthAustralia. In our discussion we talk about;how a #cooperative can benefit and supporting local people, local growers and their #localcommunitynot being #bigcorporate#mclarenvalethe advantages for growers;the reach  and opportunities they may not get if they went out by themselvestapping into a vast array of skill sets which creates this network of growers communicating with each othergetting more 'pull'being able to lean on each otherwhat #winegrapes offersselling as a stronger unit (and avoiding leaving fruit on the vine or dropping to the ground)making wine for the grower if they can't sell thathow the cooperative model combines #infrastructurehow one of the original founders, @Paxtonwines has developed the Paxton brand while still being part of the groupcurrent challenges with #exporting #wine#globalizationhow we are reimagining the old idea of making a product in the hope that it will sell on the market (way too risky now) and are instead pre-selling or setting up strong relationships with export markets where they've got more security in what they're sellingwhy the days of just crushing a few 1000 tonnes to make wine in the hopes that it'll sell in #China and just going to trade shows, is overthe importance of #buildingrelationships#winetechthe critical importance of the #story around where wine is grownthe benefits of the cooperative model to other local communities;giving the community more powercreating belief and positive reinforcementavoiding feeling like you're just trudging onall leading to an improvement in #mentalhealththe day to day opportunities, challenges and difficulties around, setting up a cooperative, and then managing a cooperative on an ongoing basisdriving a lot and getting face to face#LanghorneCreekprobably just the logistics of distance.how #coops work - general meetings and reporting on corporate obligationshow communication is vitalneeding a strong ethos and a driving force that's laid out to make it fair for everyonewhere the #wineindustry is headedthe loss of Chinese exports#smallproducerswww.kerrcapital.com.au Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@SabrinaRunbeck is a #peakperformanceconsultant with a background in #neuroscience and #publichealth. She #empowers her clients, including #smallbusinessowners, especially in #healthcare, to increase their #productivity and better look after themselves so that they can sustain themselves and their businesses.Her mission is to help business owners prevent their passion from becoming a prison. In this high enegery conversation she talks about;the downside of being so good at just #gettingthingsdonehow #sayingyes to the things that don't truly align with gives away our precious time, energy, and ultimately our sanitygrowing up as an only child in a family of Asians where for girls its like, oh you know you're smart, but get a job, don't rock the boat, you'll be fine.why she ended up the rebellious one because she thought "why should the boys carry out the family name and doing XYZ"getting two bachelor degrees, a masters degree finally got into medicine, and one of the best heart and lung surgery centers in the USAfeeing like  I made it and then I started working 80 plus hours a week, constantly adding more cases or seeing a new consultation just keep goingher 'aha' moment - waking at 8 o'clock in the am and already feeling exhausted but just pushing through it like a little thing, no big deal. If you don't do it, who's gonna do it, that type of mentality, so I had to convince myself#positivepsychology#sabotagingtendencieshow to actually #prioritize - no longer 10 things as a priority, there should just be one, very focused and knowing when you pick that one you have no regret, you're very present, and then you're not putting yourself into the #distractionzone, this #deadzonekey signs that someone should be looking out for in themselves or another's they care about, as, as an indicator that things aren't right.why we should be living more than 80% of the time in our desire zone to keep our momentum going, keep our joy, keep ourself lightdefinition of a #desirezone - it's something that you love to do and you're really good at it come natural to you.doing things that you love to do, and #movingtheneedle in your life or businessknowing that when we start to #procrastinate, we start to slow down our momentum, so that the disinterest zone which is also very dangerousa simple exercise to help you figure out 'your zone'  and how can you automate or delegate themcreating a #truefocus funnel by  eliminating and then #automatingovercoming a #mindset barrier where people feel like I'm by myself. I don't have the time, I don't have the money. I don't have the resources.pivoting into the empowerment side of us to be resourcefulhow if you continue to do the tasks that are truly mundane then you diminish who you are, And not only your confidence and your time, but then really how you see yourself as an individual, as a business owner.what to do if you're not moving the needle in your businessa #naturalpathforpeople, for #businessownersfor you to have that double win with a powerful career and a passion in life, we needed to see life as a whole.@BrendonBurchard https://www.highperformanceplanner.com/identifying and managing 5 key inputs;TimeIntrinsic valueMoneyEnergysanitywhy without the right energy you won't do anything at allthe four different #chronotypes i.e. natural energy cycles in people.#preventativemedicinehow to  preemptively reset yourself, because it's easier to recharge when you're pretty full than bring yourself completely down - constantly just sipping on something, right that's analogy,sanity - why most people are not realizing that a lot of things are just not enjoyablehow are you truly creating freedom for yourself, what does the freedom even look like for you, and is there future value. - it's not just the enjoyment of now, the instant gratification#personalgrowth, because without that constant excitement that will build for us, then people eventually gonna get to a point of being stagnanthow you just don't know what you don't know, and for someone else look at it, this chaos can become something so simplified#productivitycoach#businesscoach#relationshipcoachjudgment #sabotagingtendencywanting to serve and making sure everyone else is happy but forgetting  yourself.receiving empathyhaving a #purposestatement for me and a little me time because y'all deserve ita guide on when to say yes when to say nosaying heck yeah yes only to the things that truly light you up in lifewhy every no is a new opportunity toward  things that you truly can feel powerfully about so when you say that yes you don't feel like you're regretting or you feel like you're missing out right, you're you're comfortable with every single decisiondealing with not making the right decisionbuilding confidence in making decisions you may not have made before, that you may have put off because it was too hard ,or you didn't like saying no, so you're retraining yourselfhow important employees are to the success of just about every businesshttps://sabrinarunbeck.com/energywww.kerrcapital.com.au Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au