unSeminary Podcast

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Greg Curtis and Tommy Carreras from Climbing the Assimilayas, an organization dedicated to helping churches build systems that move people from first-time guests to engaged disciples. With years of experience working inside and alongside growing churches, Greg and Tommy bring practical insight into one of the most overlooked—and most critical—areas of church health: assimilation. Are people showing up at your church but not sticking? Do you feel like guests are slipping through the cracks despite your best efforts? In this conversation, Greg and Tommy unpack what’s changing about how people engage with church today and how leaders can respond. A seismic shift in why people are coming. // One of the biggest changes in churches is a shift in motivation: people are no longer primarily coming to church for community or life improvement—they’re coming to find God. Where previous generations often needed to be convinced of the benefits of church, many new guests today are already spiritually curious or even actively seeking Jesus before they arrive. Greg shares stories of individuals with no church background who are reading Scripture, watching content like The Chosen, and showing up ready to take decisive steps like baptism. This means churches must recalibrate their approach—not just creating welcoming environments, but facilitating genuine encounters with God. You’re missing more people than you think. // Tommy identifies a foundational issue: most churches are only tracking a fraction of the people actually engaging. Many leaders celebrate the number of new guests they can count, but in reality, they’re missing a significant percentage—especially families checking in children or people who never stop at a guest table. Churches often aren’t lacking opportunity—they’re overlooking it. Recognizing and responding to all entry points into the church is critical if leaders want to move more people toward connection and growth. Stop telling your story—start naming theirs. // A common mistake churches make is focusing on communicating their own story—how the church started, what it believes, and why it exists—rather than connecting with the story of the guest. Guests aren’t primarily interested in your church’s narrative; they’re asking what God might be doing in their life and how your church fits into that. Instead of offering multiple vague next steps, churches should provide clear, guided invitations that help people take one meaningful step forward. When churches shift from “Here’s who we are” to “Here’s how we can help you,” engagement increases dramatically. The first questions every guest is asking. // Every new person is subconsciously asking, “Is there anyone here like me?” That question shapes their experience from the parking lot to the worship service. But today, a second question is emerging: “Is there someone worth imitating?” Guests are looking for more than information—they’re looking for transformation. This has led many churches to create space for prayer, reflection, and personal ministry during or after services. These moments often become powerful connection points where guests experience both God and meaningful relationships with others. People are looking for people—not programs. // Both Greg and Tommy emphasize that guests aren’t primarily searching for better programming—they’re searching for meaningful relationships. That means churches must prioritize relational connection over information delivery. Simple actions—like learning someone’s name, asking thoughtful questions, and creating environments where people feel seen—can have a greater impact than any polished program. Designing clear pathways for connection. // Greg outlines three key journeys every church should consider: from the “screen to the seat” (first-time attendance), from the “seat to the circle” (relational connection through groups, teams, etc.), and from the “circle to the street” (living out faith in everyday life). Each stage requires intentional environments and clear next steps. Without these pathways, guests may attend once or twice but never fully engage. Every response is a sacred opportunity. // Tommy closes with a powerful reminder: every form submission, every piece of contact information, every small step a guest takes is a miracle. People don’t casually give their information—they do so because something significant is happening in their life. When churches fail to follow up or steward those moments well, they’re not just missing a system—they’re missing a person God is drawing. Leaders must treat every interaction as sacred and respond with urgency, care, and intentionality. To learn more about Climbing the Assimilayas, access their free assimilation audit, or explore their Sherpa Tribe coaching community, visit assimilayas.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don’t need more pressure—you need support. That’s why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn’t stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It’s like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We have got repeat guests on the call, which you know what that means. These are people I love dearly and who I know have so much that they can help you with. You’re going want to stay plugged in. In fact, this is one of those areas that I think many of our churches are stumbling on and are not doing a good job. We’re not doing what we should be doing. And that doesn’t just come from like, it’s a hunch. I’ve literally been in dozens of conversations where what these guys have shared literally illuminates our thinking and helps us take steps towards being a more effective church. So you’re going to want to stay tuned stay tuned for the entire conversation. Rich Birch — Super excited to have Greg Curtis and Tommy Carreras with us. They’re with an organization called Climbing the Assimilayas. Greg is the director of First Steps and Content Development Eastside Christian Church, a fantastic church. Been on the podcast a number of of times. They’re a multi-site church with six locations in all the places that make sense, California, Nevada, and Minnesota. Of course, those fit together.Rich Birch — And then Tommy is is the head sherpa at Climbing the Assimilayas. Super excited to have both of you guys on. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Greg Curtis — Yeah. It’s awesome to be with you, man. Always.Rich Birch — Always fun to connect. Why don’t actually, before we jump in, Tommy, why don’t you tell us about Climbing the Assimilayas? How do you guys help churches? What do you do to come alongside us and help us get better at what what we do?Tommy Carreras — Yeah, I’d love to. Climbing the Assimilayas was started by Greg back when I was brand new in ministry. I was a groups pastor who had just taken over sort of the rest of the pipeline of getting people into groups because I realized I couldn’t get anybody into groups because I wasn’t in charge of anything that was happening before that.Tommy Carreras — So I met Greg in like 2013, 2014. He had just taken over the role of assimilation at Eastside. He kind of designed the role himself when his lead pastor—I’m telling your story now, Greg. Usually you get to tell it.—But his lead pastor, Gene Appel, said, hey, what what do you want to do in this next season? And Greg kind of designed the role based on what he saw was super necessary in the church and also what he was really well designed for.Tommy Carreras — And he was right. Because it was exactly what I needed at the time. It was just trying to figure out what a replicable and scalable system looked like for making things more personal and more effective at getting people to take real next steps. And it sounded really simple, but it was so unbelievably challenging because I just kept getting it wrong myself. And I had no idea where to actually go for advice on any of this. And he started figuring it out, started universalizing some of the principles that were working for him at Eastside and testing those with other churches.Tommy Carreras — I was at his first ever base camp training at Eastside. And so a long friendship began there. And then I just believed everything he said at that point and customized it, contextualized it for ministry and in also Southern California, but a different part. And, you know, it’s California is like five states total. Rich Birch — Right. Sure.Tommy Carreras — So it was much different than Eastside, but also all the principles held up. And so that’s what he’s been doing ever since. I came alongside him a few years ago to sort of throw gas on the fire. I had transitioned out of my role in ministry and started doing a few things with multiple churches. And this was one of them. And it has been a blast to help build these systems in churches that are super hungry for helping people connect, but can’t quite build the systems or just don’t have the models out there that are able to adapt and flex with the changing culture and the changing needs. Because those needs of guests have changed a lot over 12, 13 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. And friends that are listening in, both Greg and Tommy are the kind of leaders that I just say, you should just do what they say. Like, just listen to what they’re doing and do it. And you’d be amazed at the results that we’ve seen at churches all across the country. And so you’re in for a treat of a conversation today. Rich Birch — Greg, since we last talked, so I think that was maybe a year ago, maybe 18 months ago, what have you continued to notice that’s maybe different around how people are engaging, connecting? We’re talking about getting first time guests, the kind of people that are arriving, trying to help those people get assimilated, get connected. What what have you noticed maybe something that’s that’s maybe different in the way people are engaging right now that’s different than maybe even a year or two ago?Greg Curtis — Yeah, over a crescendo over the last two years has been remarkable in its shift towards—this is going to sound crazy because we’re talking to churches—they’re wanting God now. And what I what I mean by that is prior, we were having to sell the benefits of following Jesus, most growing churches, which there are, and I think it was a compelling thing to share with the culture.Greg Curtis — And so people were coming to church to find community, to find help with parenting, to find support in marriage or to, you know, a variety of different things. And so the draw and and what was causing people to engage with church was really what can, what help in my life? How can I increase the quality of my life? Maybe even get some pretty powerful pain points addressed.Greg Curtis — This has shifted. I’ll put it in the terms of our um our young adult pastor. His name is Charles. He came to me. He said, Greg, prior to a few two, three years ago, maybe not even that long. He said, young adults were coming, 80% of them to find friends and community, and about 20% to find God. He goes, it’s flipped. It’s flipped. Now it’s 80% God and 20% community.Greg Curtis —  And that has expressed itself in some remarkable ways. I’ll just throw two out. At the end of last year, i was covering somebody, ah a pastor who was gonna baptize somebody after the service. He had to be gone, so I said, yeah, I’ll cover it. So in our context, I’ll meet that person ahead of time and kind of show him where to sit in the service, when to come out, where the baptistry is, et cetera.Greg Curtis — And I met her, she was 28 years old, named Connie. And I said, as we’re walking through the baptistry, so, you know, I asked these typical questions, how how long have you been coming to Eastside, which is my church? And ah she says, oh, I’ve I’ve never been to Eastside.Greg Curtis — And was like, oh, so you’re from our online campus? And she goes, no, I’ve never really heard of Eastside. And I said, well, what’s led you to be baptized today?Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — And this was her story. She goes, I grew up in a very non-religious home and I’ve I’ve never been to church. And I have, I vowed I’d never even date a religious person, but I had some friends three months ago that invited me to watch The Chosen with them.Greg Curtis — I didn’t want to. I got I was mad at myself for getting engaged after the first episode. Kept watching. Decided to buy myself a Bible two months ago. I started reading the Old Testament and New Testament concurrently and decided, I love Jesus and I want to follow him. And I could tell what I needed to do was get baptized. But get this. I’m the game day operations coordinator for the NFL. So I work on Sundays. And I just Googled who would baptize me on a Saturday. And your form came up and I filled it out. So here I am.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing.Greg Curtis — Yeah. And and I’ll tell you what. She didn’t know, Rich, that this baptism was going to be in front of other people until we were in the water and the whole church was looking at her.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredible.Greg Curtis — Okay. The questions she had, we’ve we’ve remained in touch. The questions she asks are so precious. I mean…Rich Birch — So good.Greg Curtis — …but I’m telling you, I met with somebody, I’ve had a few of those that are similar. That one’s pretty dramatic, but are very similar. No background at all. They’re coming because they’re having a God moment before they get to us.Rich Birch — Yeah. Greg Curtis — And that’s a big shift because God is doing something literally worldwide and in our culture right now that they’re coming to us to find God and and they’re already they’re already encountering him in some way and they need help with that and want it. And that’s a huge shift.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would agree. I’ve seen that in our context, in our church, so my specific home church that I’m a part of, Connexus. I’ve seen that at our church. We’ve seen it in the churches we work with. There is a um a measurable change in the way, kind of the state that people are at when they arrive. You know, that the way I’ve said, echoed similar to what you’re saying there, Greg, is like, There used to be, you know, you and I are of a certain age. I can remember a time when, you know, people would kind of stumble into church and they, you know, they were there for all different kinds of reasons. And, you know, we had to hold their hand for a long time. Rich Birch — But it seems like now people are arriving and they have ah It’s like a God question on their heart that they’re looking for an answer for. It’s they’re, they’re arriving already asking something significant. And, you know, we’ve got to meet them there. We can’t, we can’t just leave that.Greg Curtis — So get get this. I’ve often, I think I’ve probably said this on your podcast before, but for for our church, Christmas is our Super Bowl. It’s our number one outreach event for the year. Traditionally, we’ve gotten 18% of our guest leads from Christmas for for the year.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing.Greg Curtis — Okay. But yeah, but we tried something in light of this. Because we’re we’re we’re looking at this and trying to meet God in in this. And we did something we have never done at Christmas services. And that’s, we it’s so counterintuitive. We invited people, we just shared the gospel. If you want to be baptized right now, We’ll do it.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Greg Curtis — And we have never done that because, and and you’ve heard me say i Christmas guests are different than other guests of the year. They’re not there to find God. They’re there because Aunt Sally invited them to a Christmas service before the dinner and gift exchange. So they’re on their way someplace. They’re not going to do anything. And we just thought, let’s just try it. Rich Birch — RightGreg Curtis — And it probably, we we were we were prepared for, we thought maybe, you know, we’re a church of, I don’t know, 12-, 15,000 today. We thought maybe we’d get 120 people to respond, but we prepared for 200 just in case. We had 399 people… Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. That’s incredible. On Christmas Eve. Greg Curtis — …get baptized by coming to a Christmas service, not knowing that they were going to do that.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible.Greg Curtis — So that just that that just illustrates there’s a seismic spiritual shift going on. And I think meeting guests there is going to be very smart for us in this hour.Rich Birch — Yeah, and I want to, that’s a great place to start. I think sets up, tees up the conversation we will be having today, which is, friends, I think a lot of our churches could be missing some of these folks as they’re as they’re connecting. And I want to really mine from you guys. You guys are the experts on this. You interact with a lot of churches. I want to mine for our our listeners some help for them. So Tommy, from your vantage point, you work with churches across the country where we’re asking questions like this.Rich Birch — How do we get these people plugged in? How can we help these first time guests take steps towards ultimately groups, teams, get plugged into whatever it is that we’re trying to get them plugged in. Where do you see that leaders keep getting stuck when it comes to helping people take their next steps beyond this kind of first weekend? Where do we keep stumbling? What do you see consistently bubbling up in the churches that you’re working with?Tommy Carreras — Yeah. Yeah, there’s a few really specific things. And the first one is, first of all, we always have to move as far left or as far up, however you’d like to think, left to right, top to bottom. We have to move all the way to the left or all the way to the top. And the problem is there aren’t enough people in your funnel in the first place.Tommy Carreras — We’ve talked about this before, but a really, really popular church that I’ve been talking to a lot recently, and working with—by “popular”, I mean it’s growing, it’s a few thousand, so it’s there’s something there, obviously, and really popular online pastor. Not not super duper 2 million followers, but like quarter of a million. That’s a lot. Right. And just a wonderful guy. Right. Tommy Carreras — They announced really proudly recently that they had 1300 new people in the last year and their church of 25 to 2800. And I, looked him and said, guys, guys, that’s not even half of how many new people walked in the door. And they just looked so con confused.Tommy Carreras — They’re like, that’s a great number. I’m like, that’s a that’s a great number. It’s a really bad percentage, though. And it’s just wrong. Doesn’t matter if it’s good, bad, ugly.Rich Birch — Right.Tommy Carreras — It’s just wrong. The idea is most often we’re trying to help people take next steps, but we’re just looking at half or less than half of the actual people that are there. And so if we can’t get the top of the funnel right and recognize who’s there, and some of that is just missing the data that we do have. You can give this one away… If you’re not treating your new families like new guests, you’re ignoring them. You’re not missing them. You’re ignoring them because they’re giving you all the info. They’re giving you all the info besides their social security number, right? We need all their info for having their children. And we’re just missing that opportunity usually because we don’t treat them like, well, they didn’t go to the new guest table. But well, who cares? Bring the new guest table to them, right? Just bring it over there and treat them as such. And so that’s a huge one. That’s 30 to 40% of your new guest leads are actually coming in through kids. And so we have to stop ignoring those people.Tommy Carreras — But also it’s all about that invitation. If we can’t get that invitation right originally, then we’re always going to be looking at less than the actual amount. And then fewer people are going to take next steps because fewer people are being invited to take next steps. And so the top of the funnel is the first problem. We’re just not dealing with all the information. Tommy Carreras — The bigger sort of meta problem that I think has has been really interesting to watch is that most churches end up trying to tell their story instead of name their guest’s story.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.Tommy Carreras — And so if you want to go like the StoryBrand route, and if you’re a Donald Miller fan, which I think, Rich, you are a Donald Miller fan, like it, how could you not be, right?Rich Birch — Sure, sure.Tommy Carreras — Like, “Blue Like Jazz” and “StoryBrand”, where does this guy stop? But the idea is we try and play the hero so that they’ll choose us. We’re trying to make sure all our theological ducks are in a row. We need to tell them the story about the incredible call that that God had on this this church planter’s life 23 years ago and that incredible first moment. And and they’re just sitting there going, Okay, that’s really cool…Rich Birch — That’s interesting to you.Tommy Carreras — …but it has nothing to do with them. Yeah, that’s super interesting. And that sounds like a great documentary that I would watch the trailer for. But that’s it. And what we’re not trying to do, though, is name their story, how they might be feeling right now, and how we might play a part in their story.Tommy Carreras — So instead of trying to say, here’s the story of our church, do you want to get on board? Those assimilation environments, whether it’s your “one program”, which is our language for, you know, the the program that you invite somebody to to help them take a next step into belonging and purpose. Instead of trying to name our story as an organization and say, here’s where you can fit into it. We’re trying to say, here’s the story we believe that God is writing in your life. And we might be able to play a part of it. It’s way bigger than us as a church, but we would love to play a part in it. And here’s the specific next thing that we would like to try and do for you because God’s writing your story and it’s a really good one. And we think we can plug in right here, right now.Tommy Carreras — And that’s the other thing. It’s a lot of times we’re just trying to go and here’s all the ways you could connect. And Greg’s been saying this since 2013 when I met him. But, you know, if you give if you give somebody A, B, C and D, they’ll choose E, none of the above. We’re just we’re giving them options and really they want guidance. And so if we can say, hey, here’s the thing that we have found is the best step for most people like you right now. Then they can just say yes or no.Tommy Carreras — And yes or no is great because if they say no, we just downsell and say, well, what do you want? What are you looking for? What what can we help you accomplish in your story and in your life right now? Not what environment do you want to be in? Because they don’t know. They don’t know what the deliverable of a group is. They don’t know why they would do it. We just have to say, what what do you want then?Tommy Carreras — And they say, oh I’m kind of looking for this, this, this. And you go, oh well, this is an environment that might be built just for you. And so we’re just trying to come alongside their story. But most often we’re trying to convince them that our story is really compelling. And that’s just falling way too flat.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. So much there. Unpack. Friends, rewind. Listen to that. There’s good stuff packed in there. Greg, sticking with this idea of options versus guidance, you know, when we’re thinking about a new person that walks into our church this weekend, this season, what do you think they’re actually trying to figure out in those first few weeks? What are the kind of questions that are on their minds that we’ve got to try to guide them towards? What are you seeing in the churches you’re working with? How should we be trying to guide those people?Greg Curtis — Multiple thoughts come to mind with that one. I’ve always said, and I do think that it’s still true, that the number one question when any of us are in a new environment is, and we’re not conscious of it really, but we look around and is there anyone here like me? And that’s that’s the inner question everybody is asking whenever they go to someplace that’s foreign or new to them. And that, you know, in a church context, that starts in the parking lot.Greg Curtis — And that sounds unusual. But if you’ve if you’ve driven in in on your motorcycle and every other car is a Mercedes and a Beamer, when you pull up, you know, you start to feel other than. And it’s people just look around, is is there somebody here like me? Greg Curtis — And I do think, like I had mentioned before, they are trying to figure out if this is a place where I can encounter God. So I do think we need to calibrate our services in such a way that they do encounter God. And I think that there’s a shift and I can’t wait to see how it gets ferreted out. But the shift in worship that needs to be happening is not just singing great praise songs and, having compelling announcements and and great teaching that is given to you, but having moments where they they actually feel like they’re encountering God, you know what I mean, in some way. And not that he’s not encountered, you know, through his word and and and and in worship. But um you know, ah creating a little bit of space ah for that, I think, going to actually speak to what they’re trying to figure out, which is, okay can I figure out God here? I have so many questions.Greg Curtis — And when they encounter God, that covers a multitude of sins, so to speak. Like, they may have three burning questions, but when if they actually encounter God, the questions almost go into the backseat because, oh my gosh, I just I sense God here. And when I say this, I’m not being theoretical. I just met with a gal, another 28-year-old, yesterday. And again, no church back when whatsoever.Greg Curtis — Her father was Jewish. She passed away a year ago. And she just feels orphaned and started looking for God and started watching us online for two weeks and then came and got baptized her first week she came because we happen to be doing one of those baptism things that we do maybe five times a year.Greg Curtis — And so we sat down, she had her little Bible that we print. It’s one of these few dads that we make. We call it a Bible, but we just print out text for the Bible because we’re doing an Old Testament survey kind of thing called the Old Testament Junk. But she’s she’s like, I think I should get it. Like she just figured out that’s not actually a Bible. And she what what Bible should I get was her first question.Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Right.Greg Curtis — Her other second question. because I said, you got a real pastor of front of you. Where do where do you which what kind of Bible should I get? The second one was, how do you pray?Rich Birch — Love it.Greg Curtis — This is the kind of stuff that as we were growing up, you said we were men of a certain age, that we used to anticipate and dream that people would ask us these incredible discipleship questions, like the disciples asked Jesus, Lord, how do we pray? And he gives them Lord’s Prayer. And we were prepared for those questions, but we were unprepared for a culture that was pretty disinterested. And so we’ve gone to the other paths I mentioned before. But now they’re asking the questions that we we are very prepared to answer, but I think we’re just got a little unused to it. And we need to put those things right in our pocket again because they’re asking. Greg Curtis — And so those are the kinds of of things that that they’re looking for in their first few weeks. And I think they’ll gauge and they are gauging our church by different things than they were a couple of years ago. You know, yeah, sure we have our kids program needs to be good and safe. You know, and and and we can’t do a sloppy job, you know, as we worship God corporately. But they’re gauging it by is God here? Am I meeting him? How can I connect with him? And that is just a very beautiful thing to see happen. That’s a great shift.Rich Birch — You know, I kind of sticking with that. One of the things I’ve been doting as I’ve been interacting with churches across the country is something that a friend of mine, Jeff Brody, lead pastor at Connexus has said. He talked, he’s talked about how we’re trying to offer what we’ve been calling accessible encounter, that it’s like we are trying to, so he wouldn’t say this next part, I’m saying this, so I don’t want to put words in his mouth.Rich Birch — But, um you know, i come from I come from the attractional church movement. That would be my background. Happy to say that that is my background. I know you’re not supposed to admit that, but that’s where that’s my background. It’s like you’re not supposed to say or that’s who it is.Rich Birch — And you know, what we were trying to do there was trying to connect with people who don’t normally attend church. And that’s still our heart. That’s still what we’re trying to do. But what we’ve realized is people are looking for an encounter with God that is that does go beyond. It transcends like, here’s three great ideas for this week at work or whatever. It’s it’s like, hey, I’m coming with real questions.Rich Birch — And so people are looking for something in the service that does have a transformational experience or an encounter to it. Sticking with you for a second, Greg, do you see that trend? So we’re doing more, I’m seeing more churches doing more kind of prayer stuff at the altar, end of the service experience, light these candles if you’re praying for that, fill out this card and post it on the cross. More of those kinds of experiences than I’ve seen before. What do you think about that, Greg?Greg Curtis — No, I feel that too. But that do you know what that does, is it shifts me into one thing I didn’t say is, I also think they’re looking for a person, a resource that they can talk to also. Tommy Carreras — Yeah.Greg Curtis — And I think that when we have those after church like prayer moments, like what what how that’ll look at our church is, and we’ve we’ve decided for this very reason to increase the frequency of them because we didn’t do them often. Now we’re doing them a little bit more regularly, more cyclically. But we we’ll have a prayer team, and I love being on the prayer team that’s at front afterwards because of the content that we were talking about.Greg Curtis — And lines will form of people, and we just pray for them and and talk to them and look in their eyes and sometimes connect them to resources if you know, that’s appropriate. But we just watch the people just line up for that, you know. And I just think people are looking for also a person or a guide, you know, that they could ask some questions of. Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — And so I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine who’s, I think he’s 31. And um his name is Kellen. Love this guy. He’s a leader on staff at a church in Georgia. And his thing, and I’m not saying this is the answer, but because I don’t think anybody knows the answer right now, because all of this, there’s not, and it’s really multiple answers, right? It’s just a bunch of things. But I’ll throw this in as an ingredient in the thought soup, you know, that’s percolating right now on all this. He was saying, especially with all the younger people returning to church, he that he sees a shift in the attractional church model maybe that may be happening over the next five years, where instead of the worship service being the attractional event, and then we get them assimilation-wise into small groups and ministry teams, that it it may be the reverse of that.Greg Curtis — Where because they’re looking for God in a person, they end up in somebody’s home at, at a, something that may look like a small group, as we think of them, and conversations over coffee. And they get so enraptured in it that it starts there. And then it ends kind of like my friend, Connie, who, who came the NFL gal, it ends at your church. It doesn’t start there. That’s the shift. It starts to end there. And that may mean in the future, our attractional church model and worship may shift to something that’s unapologetically for those who are following and seeking Jesus, not trying to get them to. And that’s a big shift. So so the the the river flow may be shifting. And I just think that’s an interesting thought. It’s been in my head for a while.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Tommy Carreras — I think it’s so funny that you mentioned that people are looking for a person, because I was hoping to jump in and say, I think that all of this is like they’re looking for people, not experiences. Rich Birch — Right.Tommy Carreras — And so thank you for for going there. The question that came to mind, because I’ve always loved your question to to remind us how simple and basic the initial need of a guest is. Anybody in any new scenario, is anybody here like me? I think the question that they’re asking next, is anyone here worth imitating? Because also imitation, imitation is the way we learn. It’s the way we grow. It’s why Jesus is a, is a person we follow, not a doctrinal set of beliefs that we adhere to. Tommy Carreras — That’s not the point. The point is the person we follow and the people we’re becoming and everybody wants to become someone better. And that’s not actually a legalistic gross, like, Oh, you’re just prideful. No, no, no. We’re designed to be phenomenally wonderful people that look like Jesus. That’s what our, our actual heart’s desire is. Tommy Carreras — And so if God’s leaning into that desire in people, then their first question is going to naturally be, is anybody here worth imitating? And we can’t tell people that we’re worth imitating. We can only show them that we’re worth imitating. And how do we show them? We walk up to people we don’t know and say, Hey, I don’t think I know you yet. And you deserve to be known. I’m Tommy. What’s your name? And just take it from there. Tommy Carreras — That’s somebody that’s worth imitating. That is somebody that’s confident and inviting and welcoming and kind and compassionate and interested and curious. That’s who I want to be. And so I’m going to naturally say, oh, if that’s the first person I met here, what are all these other people like? This could be wonderful.Rich Birch — Right. Greg Curtis — Yeah.Tommy Carreras — And so I think those two questions really build the the exact desire set, or at least the first initial desires of somebody who’s who’s coming to church, especially somebody who’s explicitly coming to get to know God and to be the best version of themselves. And they’re they’re actually saying, and I think God defines what that best version looks like. That’s like the best news ever for churches. But we tend to miss it because we design for information transfer and not relationship building. And that’s just not what they’re looking for.Greg Curtis — Yes.Rich Birch — So sticking with that, Tommy, I’d love to, I’d love you to unpack that a little bit. Think of maybe I’m a church of a thousand. So it’s, you know, this thing’s got some energy behind it. And I want to design this, these kind of initial first steps. I want to design our weekend experience and then whatever I’m asking for people to make, to try to get them towards some relationship and get them towards some people. What are some of those initial things that we should be thinking about to try to help them take those first couple steps? What are some of the, these initial steps. Again, picture a church of maybe a thousand. What’s that look like? So it’s gotta be done at scale.Rich Birch — I love the idea of like, you know, I could note people in the room who I don’t know, but like, we all know you get up over a couple hundred and it’s like, I don’t know. By the time you get to a thousand, you look around your lobby and you’re like, I don’t know any of these people. Like I don’t know who any of these people are.Tommy Carreras — I don’t know any of these people. Yeah.Rich Birch — So how do we, how do we build a system for lack of a better word that helps us move people towards that?Tommy Carreras — Yeah, I think that first we have to get clear on our goals as a team and we have to get clear on every environment’s goal and make sure there is an environment for every step of the journey. Nobody’s just going to take a big swing. Right. And also we, I would love to live in a place and and be in a church where this is just like, I don’t have to design any systems because all the people just naturally do it. Tommy Carreras — And I would say that often, like I want to, I want to, I want our church to be a church where we don’t even need a group connection event because everybody gets invited to a group personally. And that wasn’t because I was actually hoping that would be a realistic thing. I was trying to set such a clear picture of my actual goal that we could just move 5% in that direction. We could get 20% of our people invited instead of going through a connection event. That would be awesome. Even 5% is better than zero. Tommy Carreras — And so I tried to set ah a visionary goal just for the sake of the culture building. But we have to build the systems and and be really obvious about it because people are also walking in with baggage and they’re walking in with a clear picture and they’re they’re asking to be proved wrong in most cases. Well, i don’t know about in most cases, but in plenty cases, they’re they’re hoping they’re proved wrong. Tommy Carreras — Well, church people just like each other. Well, church people are going to judge the places that don’t have it together yet. Lightning is going to strike when I walk in the door. I’m not actually going to be useful here. I’m going to be a burden. All of those things, that’s the baggage they’re walking in with, not just because of church hurt, because of life hurt. And that is exactly why we’re here, to meet that and say, that’s actually a lie. That’s actually a lie from the father of lies. And you’re here to meet the good father that has only truth for you. And I’m going to show it to you. Tommy Carreras — But we need the systems and the environments that build it correctly and that that lean toward those and produce those kinds of relationships or relational touch points. We need to set clear goals and we need to be relentless in our invitation into those environments. So just having a new here sign on a booth is not an invitation. It’s information. But when my favorite way to announce, for example, which should be an announcement, every single service, hopefully twice in the service. Hey, if you’re new here or you consider yourself new here, and if if you haven’t done this yet, we’d love you to go have a conversation at this place. We want to put this gift in your hands or this something and, and, and here’s what I would always say. And if you’re thinking that the free mug is a bribe to get to know you, you are exactly right. The mug is great, but what’s better is that we think you’re worth knowing and we want to make sure that you have every opportunity to have a familiar face next time you walk in the door.Tommy Carreras — Not, we want to meet you because it’s part of our organizational goal to identify this many guests so that hopefully you give at some point. That’s not a great message. The great message is you’re worth knowing. We think you deserve a familiar face who calls you by name next time you walk in the door. And hopefully also there’s going to be a next time. And we’d like to ensure that there’s a next time. So yes, it’s a bribe. All we want to do is get to know you. We stop by the place. Tommy Carreras — And that, that really worked because also we’re not being slick. We’re being honest. We’re being vulnerable. We’re being transparent. We’re saying we’re just here to do this and whatever it takes to get you there. That’s great. You can leave the mug. The point is we would love to get to know you because you’re worth knowing. And so we’re trying to make sure those environments exist. And then we also have to follow it up. Tommy Carreras — And that means training people training. empowering volunteers to actually accomplish the goal as opposed to accomplish what they think is the goal, but never really was. And so if they’re like, I got to sell the church. Nope. No, no, no. You got to remember their name and ask three personal questions about them. That’s my, that’s my goal for you. Just do that. Tommy Carreras — And if they come to the next thing, like we’ll, we’ll get them to the next thing. You got to mention the program that we want them to come to. That’s fine. They’re not going to come next week anyway. They’re not ready for that. Just get to know them. Rich Birch — That’s good.Tommy Carreras — And so we’re setting real goals and making them very attainable for those volunteers. And then we’re also doing it ourselves in staff and we’re not hiding in the green room, just a little note. But you know, if you’re on staff and you’re hiding in the green room, you know, would fix that. Just fix it.Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. Stop doing that. I love that. So super tactically, Greg, because we’re talking, we talked, you brought up the ethical bribe. I like to call it the like, Hey, we’ve got a great coffee mug or a water bottle. And you know, it’s one of those things. I love how you framed that, Tommy. Cause I like, think that’s a, that’s a great way even just to like unpack this exactly what we’re trying to do. I think that’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Greg, you’ve helped us think, you’ve helped me think so clearly around um how are we collecting people’s contact information, which is just the start of the of the relationship. Like we’re I think sometimes we can get that turned upside down. It’s like we’re trying to hit the metric because for some metric reason. No, no, it’s ultimately about trying to start a relationship. What are you learning about the timing, the context of all of that, of that kind of part of the service that we’re asking when we’re giving them? You know, what is the ethical bribe, all of that?Rich Birch — What are you learning these days for this very tippy top part of the transaction we’re talking about, the very first step? Is there anything that you’re learning there that we should be thinking differently about?Greg Curtis — I don’t I don’t know. I’m always cautious about saying what I’m learning as if it’s been learned. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Curtis — I think that we are experimenting with some new things in light of this. And I would say that one of the big shifts is it’s look, how do I say it? In light of everything we’ve said already about them looking for God, right? And not just life help. They, I think looking at their discipleship, there’s an old word, you know, but they’re they’re learning to follow Jesus, right? Their discipleship, becoming a follower of Jesus. We have always looked at that through just a biblical theological doctrinal lens. Like, do they know this? Have they done that kind of thing? Greg Curtis — And I think it’s an interesting thing to look at it through the journeys that they experience at at when they come into a new church from their angle. So I call them, I’ve said this before, I think to your crowd, but I call those three journeys the journey from the street to the seat, which really became from the screen to the seat after COVID.Greg Curtis — Right. Like I mentioned, the gal I met with ah on Sunday, she had already attended our church twice online before she had come. And many churches I have talked to, their average is about four times that they’ve attended your church online. But that journey from, say, the screen to the seat where they’re ah they’re seeing you on their television. But then it’s the parking lot, the greeters, the info counter, kids checked in, ushers, whatever. Right. That journey is is so important. Greg Curtis — And that journey is about but ah belonging. But then you get the journey from, ah that’s really the growing journey, which is what they’re there for. And that’s a journey from the seat to a circle. And that’s because the circle is the environment we know works best for somebody to grow, where they’re just kind of FaceTime with people, you know, that in Tommy’s words, they might want to imitate, right? And learn from.Greg Curtis — But it’s so important to get that information. We’re making a big shift where instead of like we’re actually experimenting and saying this for the last few weeks at our church where we’re not collecting their information at all at the at that stage. What we’re doing is saying just come get a free get come get…in our case, we have like a grill where they could get a free meal. Come get a free coffee drink or meal or whatever on us. And we’re we’re not asking them for anything. We’re just creating engagement.Greg Curtis — But we’re starting to shift because we are baptizing, like in our in our case, over the last 15 months, we’ve baptized over 1800 people. And that’s a big that’s a big shift from targeting what I call cold leads to warm leads. You know, you want to get engagement, start collecting stuff and engaging with people when they’ve been willing to get wet in front of people they don’t know, because they made a decision to follow Jesus. That’s a warm lead.Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — Somebody, you know what I’m saying? And in the, in the spirit of the parable of the talents investing where the, you’re starting to see results, you know, in the fruit and just being strategic about that.Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — That’s where we’re pouring in some of our, of our best stuff. We’re experimenting with that. I’m not telling people to do that yet because we don’t know how that’s going to work for us.Rich Birch — Yes.Greg Curtis — So let me just say that in the… Rich Birch — Yes. That’s good. Yeah.Greg Curtis — But moving them from the seat to the circle through that kind of engagement, you know through whatever one program you have, inviting them into a ministry team, a small group. And then that third journey is the journey, you know once it’s belongings established, growing established, then it’s it’s going, the journey about going.Greg Curtis — That’s the journey from the circle back out to the street. And it’s really just equipping people to to not just know Jesus, but to be more like him and to imitate him ultimately, even through their other people examples. And ad I just think that there’s some great environments that we can talk about later that really equip them to do that. Because we may look at the Bible and see, here’s discipleship steps. But from the guest vantage point, it’s their journey from the screen to the seat, the seat to the circle, and the circle back out to the street. And so what environments are we creating?Greg Curtis — And like you said, how are we engaging with them? When do we get their contact info, right? When do we invest in in the engagement? And for us, it it seems a worthy experiment to shift to, because we are seeing so many baptisms in light of the the huge God interest, is to start it’s like a it’s a it’s a discipleship moment to let the discipleship issues drive when we do what. And look at it through the lens of these journeys that guests experience our church with. Right. So that’s a little bit about, you know, what we’re looking at in there and on the front end.Rich Birch — Love it. Well, I friends who are listening in, I was really hoping that you’ll take steps to get connected with Greg and Tommy. We’ve talked about a bunch of stuff. The problem with these things is, man, we can just keep going. And like, there’s so much in this that I find fascinating and, you know, I’ve always loved when people connect. Rich Birch — I do want to kind of pivot and talk a little bit about how you guys help churches. So first, maybe Tommy, talk to us about, you’ve got this incredible free audit that you’ve made available for folks. Talk to us about the audit. How will it help us? We’ll put a link to in the show notes about it. But I really think 100% of the people that are listening today should take this. This would be a great next step for folks coming out of today. Talk us through this a little bit.Tommy Carreras — Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite things about the audit, because it’s it’s a brand new tool that we just rolled out. Because we had a 63-point checklist before, and it was phenomenal. I worked through every item on that checklist…Rich Birch — Yes.Tommy Carreras — …when Greg initially rolled it out a long time ago. And what we did was we took our own medicine and said, how do we reorganize this instead of around an organizational checklist of do we have the features that we think are valuable? Instead, we said, well, what what milestones are going to help a guest on their journey. And so we, we organize the assimilation audit around the three journeys of the guest, not the environments of the church. Tommy Carreras — Now the audit does say, well, this is an environment that meets them in this thing that they’re looking for on their journey, but, do you have the environment? Is it working? Is the main question usually is, is it actually working? And we give you some actual markers around whether or not it’s working. Because the the reality is you have the programs, you have the ingredients, you have the volunteers, you probably have a great Sunday experience. And yet all the people are still disappearing or at least most of them. And they’re, the problem is they do it quietly. They don’t write in and tell you… Rich Birch — Right. Tommy Carreras — …by the way, I left because I didn’t find somebody that I could imitate quickly enough because what I really had was all this baggage from this… They don’t tell you any of that. You just never knew they were even there. Rich Birch — So true. Tommy Carreras — And so what we’re trying to do is look at the experience and go based on all the churches that we’ve worked with, Greg, for over 12 years and seeing this happen over and over and over and seeing the remarkable consistency in the issues and the challenges. We said, here are the leakage points in the system. And some of them are pretty surprising. Some of them are super obvious. But what this will do is actually help you audit the effectiveness of those experiences, organized by what the guests are hoping they experience. They’re desperately hoping you can provide for them on their journey.Tommy Carreras — And the best part about it, honestly, like it’s a Google doc right now. That is, I’m just giving you that admission because also it’s not a fancy tool that I vibe coded like Rich recently vibe coded one of his really cool assessment tools. I haven’t done that yet. And the the reality is though, it’s a Google doc because also you should write some notes on this thing and you should sit around it as a staff and share it and have real conversations.Tommy Carreras — Cause the, the, the gold of this audit is going to be in the conversation and the arguments: No, I think it’s red. No, it’s yellow. It’s doing okay. But what about this person? What about this person?Rich Birch — That’s good.Tommy Carreras — Will somebody go pull up the numbers? Because the numbers… That’s where the gold is in the audit. And it’s, I mean, it’s a lot. It’s a lot of stuff to dig through in your system because it’s 49 points. It’s 49 stops along the way on those three journeys. But you’re going uncover so much. And then I think that it’ll give you a really clear pathway toward, okay, well, here’s what we should do first. Rich Birch — That’s good.Tommy Carreras — And that might be the most important thing about it.Greg Curtis — I would just say, too, on that point that for your listeners, if you’re at a point where you are either feeling alone in in wanting to see a breakthrough in engagement or you have a team and you guys are just kind of spinning your wheels and you have the same results all the time and wanting to see them increase and they really don’t that much, this thing is do it for a few weeks together in meetings. It will invigorate. And you’ll do it do it with a team, even if if ah ah but ah a team of key volunteers yeah in a smaller context.Greg Curtis — But make a day retreat or something out of it and really go through it. And you will find that you, oh my gosh, you can shake out all of the obstacles, all the pain points and weaknesses. It will be very, very helpful and rejuvenating. And it’s free. So there’s that.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, and we’ll put a link to that in the show notes. I really do think this would be a great next step for everybody who’s listening in. Super helpful. Great. It’s crazy that it’s free to me. You know, don’t don’t trash talk that it’s just a Google Doc. Like, man, a lot of intelligence built into that that, you know, we want people to take.Rich Birch — And then the second thing, Greg, could you tell us about the Sherpa tribe? Because I think there are people, well, I know there are churches that are listening in that, you know, you talked about earlier, there was this, you know, hey, there’s 1300 guests or or, you know, sorry, Tommy was talking about the fact there’s 1300 guests at this church, and they should have had a lot more. That has been my experience with 100% of the churches that I’ve talked to around these issues, we’re missing people. So how does the Sherpa tribe help with that? How does that actually help us find those guests, get them to stay, get them to serve and to start growing? What does that look like?Greg Curtis — Well, alongside of looking at the guest journeys in these three ways that I earlier described, we we find that each church, once they do the audit, has a different weakness. You know what I mean? Some of them are common, right? But they ah they’re at their own place and shoring up and strengthening different aspects of that journey. Greg Curtis — And so what we did is we took our video course, which was one of our mainstays, and we started breaking it up and creating a ton more videos that breaking up around 10 minutes and then creating action points for each one and allowing ah people who become part of our Sherpa tribe—which you can go to assimilayas.com and click on Sherpa Tribe, find out more—to to to go right where they need it and study the things and action points that they need. Go deep in that. And then weekly meet with Tommy or I, with other people just like them from around the country and beyond that in these Zoom sessions where there’s no agenda but you. Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — And you bring your questions and what you’re struggling through in this. And we have the most dynamic and fun conversations that create breakthroughs for teams through those through those Zoom moments. Tommy, would you add anything to that?Tommy Carreras — No, I think the the other the other piece of the puzzle that’s so powerful is we’ve seen the we’ve seen the best results from the folks who haven’t just jumped in to go like, I got to shore up a thing and get some information and and then get out and then you know milk it for all it’s worth and just get in.Tommy Carreras — What they’re really, that the churches who are getting the most out of it are the ones who say, this is the year where we fix this. Greg Curtis — Yeah, yeah.Tommy Carreras — This is the year where we look different at the end of it. This is the year that our staff gets it. There are no more people just sitting around in workflows or process queues 29, 42, 83 days overdue. That is the biggest crisis that we could have now because we all get it. We’re speaking the same language and we’re serving each other and we’re doing all these things to shore up all of these systems because it’s not just one person. And most likely it’s most people’s second or third job on their actual plate. Tommy Carreras — And so we’re trying to skip them up to third base on all of these different kind of sections of their assimilation system. And we’re trying to give them the people and the contextualization that’s going to make it come to life for their entire team. But it’s it’s the churches that go, we’re going to make it this year is going to be the one where things change.Tommy Carreras — And they they dive in and they go, I’m going to commit to this thing because they believe that it’s a keystone. It’s almost like a keystone habit. We fix this. Everything else is going to make more sense in our church. And that’s assimilation is a mindset and ah a sort of almost a belief system, not just a couple different environments in our church or a couple different process cues. And so those are the churches that are really crushing it inside the tribe.Rich Birch — Yeah, that that’s fantastic. And friends, again, we’ll link to that. It’s assimilayas.com where you can you know connect more with Tommy, with Greg, with everything that they’re they’re doing. And you know super hearty endorsement from me. You guys do great work and I think it’s super helpful for many churches. This is one of these areas that if we don’t keep an eye on over time, we’re just missing people. We’re missing people taking steps closer to Jesus.Rich Birch — Tommy, why don’t I give you the last word here? Any kind of last encouragement as we wrap up today’s episode that you’d like to share with listeners who are you know thinking about these issues? Obviously, these people are the better part of an hour in. What would you say to them as we wrap up today’s call?Tommy Carreras — Yeah. I was at a church recently and they I was working on mostly data with them. Okay. And they said, hey do you want to talk to the staff for 20 minutes? And I said, okay, sure. Random. I’m going to try and convince them that data matters. And that they okay, they should love their church management software at the end of this 20 minute talk.Tommy Carreras — And by the end of it, they did actually. They believed me. But the whole idea was I led with there’s a whole bunch that got to it, but the the crux at the end was every form response. Every time somebody gives us their information is a miracle. God has moved heaven and earth since before time began to get them to put their name, email, and phone number on that stupid Planning Center form. And it’s a dang miracle.Tommy Carreras — And if that’s true, then every single person in a queue or a workflow or a form, you know, submission, whatever you call in your church management software, that is a sacred opportunity and a massive burden of leadership on our shoulders.Greg Curtis — Yeah.Tommy Carreras — And every red light overdue, 23 days not started, all of those are massive warning signals in our ministry. All because it’s a miracle that anybody would say yes to anything. And how could we not do everything in our power to lean in meet them there and steward their next step and get them across the gap that they are not going to and may not be able to cross on their own.Tommy Carreras — That’s the opportunity ahead of us. And it’s just sacred. And I hope that we don’t miss it.Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, thank you so much, guys. really appreciate you being on the show. Again, that’s assimilayas.com. We’ll link to all of that, but appreciate you being here today. We’ll have to have you on again in the future because this is such an important area, but appreciate you being here today. Thank you. Tommy Carreras — Thanks, Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Jon-Michael Sherman and Eric Smith, the team behind SermonDone—an AI-powered platform designed specifically to help pastors with sermon preparation, research, and media creation. Their goal is simple: help pastors save time so they can focus more energy on shepherding people, developing leaders, and delivering impactful messages each weekend. Are you feeling the weekly pressure of sermon preparation? Wondering how new technology like AI could actually support your preaching rather than replace it? In this conversation, Eric and Jon-Michael explain how tools like SermonDone are helping pastors streamline research, develop sermon series, and extend the reach of their messages beyond Sunday morning. Building an AI operating system for pastors. // The idea for SermonDone began during a conversation with pastors at a conference about how they were—or weren’t—using AI in ministry. Jon-Michael realized many pastors either didn’t know where to start or were piecing together generic AI tools that weren’t designed for ministry contexts. The team set out to create what they call an “AI operating system for pastors,” built specifically around the real workflow of sermon preparation. From planning long-term preaching calendars to turning sermons into small-group resources, the platform was designed to support the full lifecycle of preaching. Their goal is to eliminate the intimidating blank page pastors often face on Monday mornings and provide tools that help them think, research, and prepare more efficiently. Saving pastors time without replacing the pastor. // The purpose of SermonDone is not to replace pastors but to free up their time for the things that matter most. Many pastors spend countless hours gathering research before they ever begin writing. SermonDone accelerates that process by compiling detailed research reports in minutes, allowing pastors to move quickly into prayerful reflection and message development. Eric compares it to meal-prep services that deliver ingredients to your door—you still cook the meal, but you don’t have to spend hours shopping. In the same way, pastors still craft the message, internalize it, and deliver it with passion; the platform simply helps gather the “ingredients” faster. Deep research and sermon writing tools. // One of the platform’s most unique features is its deep research capability. SermonDone deploys multiple AI agents to explore various aspects of a biblical passage or theological topic and deliver a comprehensive research report in minutes. The report can include historical background, theological insights, commentary perspectives, and practical applications—equivalent to the work of multiple research assistants. Pastors can then write directly within the platform using an AI assistant that provides feedback, cross-references, and suggestions as they develop their sermon. The goal is not to automate preaching but to equip pastors with better information and more time to internalize and communicate the message effectively. Extending the impact of sermons beyond Sunday. // Another major focus for SermonDone is helping churches extend the life of their preaching content. The platform can automatically generate sermon clips for social media from a YouTube link, allowing churches to create multiple short videos that highlight key teaching moments. Upcoming features include adding B-roll footage and music to clips, helping churches produce engaging content that keeps the sermon message circulating online throughout the week. The platform also creates graphics and other media resources so churches of any size can maintain a strong digital presence without needing a large communications team. Creating a personalized preaching assistant. // SermonDone includes a feature called “My Library,” where pastors can upload past sermons, documents, or other teaching content. The platform analyzes this material to learn the pastor’s theological framework, communication style, and recurring themes. Over time, the system becomes increasingly personalized, offering suggestions and insights based on the pastor’s own voice and past teaching. It can even identify patterns in a pastor’s preaching—highlighting repeated themes or areas where fresh perspectives might be helpful. Addressing concerns about AI in ministry. // Both Eric and Jon-Michael acknowledge that some pastors remain cautious about using AI in sermon preparation. Their response is that technology has always shaped ministry—from printing presses to radio, television, and the internet. AI, they argue, is simply another tool. Used wisely, it can accelerate research, expand creativity, and help pastors spend more time shepherding people rather than staring at a blank document. To learn more about SermonDone, visit sermondone.com. The team is continually adding new features designed to help pastors research faster, preach better, and extend the reach of their sermons throughout the week. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. Got some returning friends, returning guests on the podcast, which you know what that means. These are people I like who I think you should be paying attention to. Really excited to have Jon-Michael Sherman and Eric Smith from SermonDone. If you do not know SermonDone, where have you been? You’ve been sleeping under a rock somewhere. It is the premium AI assistant, build just for pastors like you. It’s a tool that helps you with really everything to do a sermon prep from deep sermon research, to planning an entire series, even generating the first draft that’s theologically aligned and sounds just like you. Plus, we’ve got some new stuff that they want to talk about today. But welcome to the show. So glad you’re here today, guys. Welcome.Eric Smith — Thanks for having us, man. We’re super pumped to be here and thanks for having us back.Rich Birch — Nice. It’s good. Eric, why don’t you bring us up to speed a little bit on where has SermonDone been since we last talked? You know, what’s been going on these last few months?Eric Smith — Yeah, so the last few months have been incredibly exciting. We have really almost re-envisioned even the original platform, and have expanded it to be so much better than it was before. Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Smith — It was great before, and it was a great resource. But just like anything, we continued to dream and stretch ourselves and really push ourselves to expand the platform to offer more resources, to save pastors more time, and to help pastors be more effective. Rich Birch — Love it.Eric Smith — And so we’re going to talk about a lot of those different features today and super pumped to share those and excited about all that’s happening.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Jon-Michael, why don’t we start with you kind of roll the clock back for people who maybe haven’t been following this story. Friends, I think this is an incredible tool that you should be trying. And actually, you’re going to want to stick around till the end because they’ve got this incredible thing that they’ve just rolled out that you’re going to want to try. Rich Birch — But Jon-Michael, roll the clock back. Tell us a bit of the founding story. What what are you really trying to solve? What’s the problem that you’re lying awake at night wrestling with, trying to to help so many church leaders with?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, first of all, great to be back with you, Rich. And always love listening to the show. Long time listener, happy to be a guest. We started this over a year ago at a pastor’s conference in a breakout session with a bunch of pastors talking about preaching. And we were going around the room saying, how are you using AI? How are you using AI? Another person’s like, I’ve never used it before. I’ve never tried it before. Jon-Michael Sherman — And so we said to ourselves, what would it look like for us to create really the AI operating system for pastors in every aspect of their process? Everything from research, being able to plan a 12-month or 24-month or 36-month or however many months you want to go preaching calendar, right? What if we could help you with that? What if we could help you with your discipleship resources and turning a sermon into small group curriculum?Jon-Michael Sherman — And so we started creating and we created without handcuffs. We just said, if we could be maximalist in our approach, and create the most amazing tools, what could we create? And so we went on this journey and we’ve been listening to so many of you that have been listening to this show, giving us feedback. I know many of the listeners on this show have emailed me personally and said, hey, John, could you make this for me? And I said, I’d love to. I love that idea. That’s a great idea.Jon-Michael Sherman — And so what you’re gonna be seeing now in this latest version is because of the listeners of this show, the feedback that’s come from this show. And pastors, you know, I’ve sat in that seat. I’ve been a lead pastor. Eric’s a lead pastor right now. And so I know the pressure of that Monday morning feeling. What am I going to do? The page is blank again. And I think we can clearly say now as a company, you really never have to start from scratch anymore.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And I don’t know if I ever told you guys this, but you know a year ago when I got to know you a little bit better, you graciously gave me access to the platform and I sent it to some preaching friends of mine. And I said, Hey, like, take a look at this thing. What do you think? And the part that I have found really impressive with what you’ve done is I feel like every time I’m back on the tool, there’s like something new. It keeps growing. It keeps expanding. You’ve, you’ve even from where it was a year ago, it’s like a totally different deal. It’s like, it’s, there’s all kinds of new stuff in there. And I’ve seen you pay close attention. Like you said there, Jon-Michael to, what you’ve heard people say and actually implemented that, which I think is commendable. Rich Birch — Eric, in your this is a part of what you do. It’s not the only thing that you do in life. As Jon-Michael had talked about there, lead pastor at a fast-growing church in Florida, Hope City. I think you’re three locations, if I’m if i’m correct. Rich Birch — One of the things I love that I’ve heard you say is, hey, this tool is going to help pastors save some time. That makes me lean forward. Let’s talk about maybe one or two of the new features that you think is going to help save some time particularly, that’s gonna maybe make this process a little more efficient so that we can focus on whether that’s meeting with people or some extra leadership stuff or what what’s a new new feature that kind of is gonna help us save some time.Eric Smith — Yeah, so everything that we do is all about helping churches grow. We want to help churches grow and we want to help them engage people. And so we believe the way that we do that is by saving pastors time, but not just saving them time, helping them maximize the time that they invest… Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Smith — …to create better sermons and better, you know, sermon clips and all the other things that we do. And so a couple of the new features that we’ve come out with since the last time we talked is now we actually have a sermon writer. So you go into the platform and you can actually write your sermon inside the platform. And what’s really cool about it is as you’re writing, you have an AI assistant right there beside you and you can, you know, ask it questions, you can get feedback, you can get cross references, whatever. So imagine you’re going through the process and you’re able to do that. Eric Smith — But not only that, as you’re building your slides, you can right click on anything that you have and it’ll immediately start building your slides for the weekend. And then on top of that, one of the other amazing features is after you’re done with the sermon, I wanted to create, I was telling Jon-Michael when we were building it, I said, I want to create something that’s going to help a pastor actually memorize and learn the sermon. Because it’s one thing to write a sermon, it’s another thing to internalize the message and then deliver the message in a dynamic and compelling way.Eric Smith — I think I said this the last time I was on the podcast with you. The way we deliver the sermon is actually just as important or more important than, than writing it. And so we created a feature in there where helps you memorize the sermon and walk through it. It also has a feature where you can preach straight from the platform where, you know, right there from your iPad or from your computer or however you preach.Eric Smith — I’m still old school. I preach on paper, but that’s just me. Uh, but yeah, but that’s one of the features. Another exciting feature is to help pastors, you know, really take the the research to a whole nother level. And so we developed something called deep research. There is nothing like this out there. You can’t do this with generic AI. It’s impossible.Eric Smith — And so I was telling Jon-Michael as we were brainstorming this idea, I want to create something for pastors that will help them get so deep and further ahead that when they sit down to craft the sermon, they have all the research they need. It’s kind of like this: you know, we go to the grocery store, we buy all the ingredients, we bring the ingredients home and we we cook the meal, we prep the meal.Eric Smith — What we’ve done is we’ve said, hey, just like there’s their services now that you can buy and all the ingredients come in a box and all you have to do is unbox it. You still have to cook the meal. Well, that’s the way this is. Deep research is we’re giving you all the ingredients in a research report that’s over 20,000 words. When Jon-Michael and I were building it, we wanted to wrestle with what would the average pastor who’s bivocational want to know, but what would also the PhD want to know?Eric Smith — And so the research, we have 23 AI agents that go out. They have four to 500 words of prompting that we wrote. It does deep research in 23 specific areas, every area you could want to know about a specific section of the Bible or a theological topic. And then it delivers in five minutes, it delivers a report back with all that information. I mean, it’s it’s absolutely amazing. That feature alone would cost you a ton of money. I mean, it’s imagine having 23 master level or doctorate level assistants that are going out and researching these different areas for and then delivering the report back. And now when you sit down, you’ve got all this amazing research to go through as you get ready to to prepare yourself to preach.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that feature. That’s incredible. I multiple times with, so I’ve been in the executive pastor seat, this you know, supporting some great, incredible communicators and multiple communicators, we have explored And ultimately never pulled the trigger on a research assistant or there’s organizations out there that will do this, that will put together a research brief and they’ll they’ll get a PhD student. And you’ll you’ll pay ah you know thousands of dollars a month for that kind of service. Rich Birch — When I first used your research tool, I was like, oh my goodness, this is exactly like that thing that we were looking at, that that, man, but it’s ah you’re making it available for every pastor, which is incredible. I’ve said in other contexts, preaching is a team sport. Although one person has to get up and do it, I get it. Ultimately, one person’s going to stand up this. What you’re helping do is is bring all that other um support from, other like you say, these 23 other agents.Rich Birch — Jon-Michael, a part of what I love is the partnership between the two of you guys and your whole team. When you’re thinking about the the features that you’ve been adding, one of the things you talked about was like you’ve been listening to people and saying, hey, here’s a change. Are there any of these new features particularly that you’re like, you know, the people are demanding. And so we added this, you know, what was one of those features or a couple of those features that really people have been excited about that you’re looking forward to releasing or maybe are just around the corner to releasing?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, well, we’re really excited about having sermon clips as one of our latest features. Rich Birch — Love it.Jon-Michael Sherman — People are absolutely loving it. It’s this immediate way for you to be able to put your YouTube link in and have incredible viral clips ready for social media. So I’ve led a church marketing agency in the in the church industry for 10 years. And I know the value of vertical video. It’s so important to let your sermon keep preaching beyond Sunday. However, ah you know, right now, you know, a clip alone can be somewhat engaging, but adding B-roll footage really helps it take it to another level. And so we’ll be releasing that here very soon right around the corner. So you’re going to have the ability to do even better edits than ever before.Jon-Michael Sherman — So imagine having 10, 20 clips to look through and then choosing the one that you love and then being able to add B-roll with high level stock footage and engage people in a big way. So people have been asking for it. We said, yes, we’re bringing it. It’s costing us a lot of money and we’re spending it for you guys. So we want you to have it and it’s important to us.Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, that’s amazing. I loved when I saw that you guys added that to the suite. One of the, a part of the work I do in the coaching/consulting with my churches is around invite culture. And, you know, one of the things we’ll often do is look at their social channels and give them some feedback, really benchmark against what the fastest growing churches are doing. And you would not believe how many times I’ve said to churches, how come you’re not doing sermon clips like that? That is like low hanging fruit. Three quarters of the reason why people attend your church is because of the teaching. And you know, being able to do a clip or two a day you know in the week following is a great way to keep that in front of people. I love that you’ve added that. Rich Birch — Tell me a little bit more about the B-roll, though. That’s kind of interesting. That that feels like that’s going to really punch it up, take it to a whole new level.Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, I think, you know, if I were talking to you 10 years ago, the hot thing to do was have a virtual visit video on your website. Remember those days where you would show people a look of, you know, here’s what it looks like in the outside. And this is what kids check looks that like and different things. Well, the beauty with B-roll is you can still put in that stock footage of your church, and clip that in with your sermon.Jon-Michael Sherman — So as you’re preaching, now here’s some B-roll of worship. As you’re preaching, now here’s some B-roll of kids check. As you’re preaching, now here’s some B-roll of the lobby. You can show off your church experience a little bit more and upload your own custom B-roll. Jon-Michael Sherman — Or you can use the stock B-roll that we have. So maybe you’re talking about a specifically emotive subject. You can then clip into some a stock footage that illustrates that emotion or that story that you’re communicating.Jon-Michael Sherman — So it just takes it to a whole nother level. Obviously, like the clips alone, the way they are right now are great. But just having those different tools that you’re able to add on to it. We’ll also be releasing some audio too. So along with that, if you want to choose or use from our our library of of audio, you can use that too. So songs, different things you want to add to your clips, you can really do it all within our within our new release.Rich Birch — That’s amazing. You know, this is the thing that’s incredible about your tool. Really, the suite of tools put together in in one ah you know one environment is, you know, you just keep adding new things. Eric, when you think, though, back to the core of SermonDone, when you think about the the thing that’s kind of getting used the most, what what what is the part of it? Like these, I’m assuming that these new tools, it’s like additive to a core experience. What part of it at its core are you kind of the most happy with or the most proud of? Okay, we keep working on this part of it because this is the piece that is so important to the overall ah kind of SermonDone experience. Eric Smith — Well, I think there’s, um it’s hard to pick one… Rich Birch — Or a couple, a couple. Eric Smith — …but I will we’ll say the unique thing about our platform, unlike anything else that’s out there, is ours has a media component. You know, we have sermon clips. We also do graphics. And so our heart is for, there’s so many pastors out there that that are all alone. They’re by themselves. They’re fighting the fight. And man, we are with you. We built this honestly for you.Eric Smith — And to have a pastor be able to, you know, even if their church is small or they’re a new plant and they’re just getting started to be able to do clips, but then also to be able to create graphics for events, graphics for their sermons. So literally in five seconds, you can have a graphic. And we give even just on our $99 a month lowest version, you get 100 graphics a month. Nobody’s going to probably use that many, but if you don’t like the way it was, you can tweak it, you can modify it.Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — And so um on the media side, I love all that. For me personally, using the product, developing the product, I love the ability, even with our sermon builder, to just when I’m sitting, you know, waiting for somebody at a coffee shop to meet and I have a thought or an idea and I type it into my notes on my phone about a specific, you know, devotion I was doing or a text I’ve been thinking about or a topic. And then I’m able to take those notes and throw those into my sermon builder. What that does is it just organizes those and begins to outline that for me.Eric Smith — It’s my words. It’s just helping organize it. And here’s the other thing, because our platform, unlike any other platform, has your personal pastor profile—When you set the product up, you build your pastor profile. You talk about your theological heritage. You talk about Bible translation. news You talk about your your preaching style and you upload sermons if you’d like to do that. And what happens is our AI begins to understand you more. And as does that, it’s going to deliver that content in a way that aligns with you and your theology. And in your delivery. Eric Smith — And so that’s really, really important. But I just I can’t get past the deep research. I mean…Rich Birch — Yeah, so good.Eric Smith — …I was pastoring. I’ve I’ve been blessed to pastor for a long time now, and I’ve been blessed to pastor three different churches that grew incredibly fast. All glory to God. And I was in a church I was pastoring in Alabama. I was it I planted two and I pastored and revitalized one. So I’m a weirdo, I guess, in that way. When we did revitalization, it was it was a large church and I’m there and I almost hired a company to do research for me.Eric Smith — And I got the quotes back, I got the demo the the sample report. And I was like, oh man, this would be amazing.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Smith — It was just it was just so much money, even at a large church.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Eric Smith — I cannot pull the trigger on this.Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — I can’t do it. Just imagine now, in our product, you get 10 deep researches for $99 a month. Rich Birch — Yeah.Eric Smith — To get one deep research with one of those companies would cost you hundreds of dollars and it would take hours and hours and hours for someone to do. Rich Birch — Yep.Eric Smith — Well, now we’re able to deliver that and it aligns with your theological framework. It is absolutely amazing. And so we literally are delivering delivering the ingredients to you. You still got to cook the meal, but we’re delivering it to you.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Smith — So I love that. That’s amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s so good. And I know um it’s been fun to watch your journey as an organization. And early on, one of the questions that people would ask is like, how is this any different than just a generic AI tool? And and I always from the beginning, I was like, no, it’s so different than just you know going on and having some you know chatbot conversation.Rich Birch — But to me, that question just isn’t even in the orbit anymore. It’s like, there’s so much of this, you know, you could not replicate. The amount of time it would take for you to build all these individual apps and all that just would be insane.Rich Birch — Jon-Michael, could you talk to us about the “My Library”? That’s been up and running now for maybe six or eight months. Maybe it’s longer than that now. What have you seen as users have used that to kind of help your tool be more custom? Because I think that’s one of the advantages that you’ve built in is, hey, this isn’t sounding like some generic, somebody else. It is giving me feedback that is related to things that I’ve preached in the past. How is how is that tool being used?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, it’s really quite remarkable because it really serves as an external brain for those of us who can’t remember what we said 10 seconds ago. And it seems to be that lead pastors all have that same personality.Jon-Michael Sherman — Do we agree, guys? Yeah. No, I mean, it’s, you know, it’s it’s true. And I mean, and listen, like no one in the world has the job that lead pastors have to go and have create 40 plus unique sermons a year and then somehow try not to repeat yourself. Right? Rich Birch — So true.Jon-Michael Sherman — So obviously the memorization of saying, have I said that before? When did I say that? But the beauty of being able to build on what you’ve already said and be able to remember yourself and pull up all the the past content that you’ve said in the past is remarkable. Again, we may write 3000 words of notes, but we’re going to speak 6000 words on the mic. And so being able to have all of those words as well captured within the platform is remarkable.Jon-Michael Sherman — Another really great one, I was working with a pastor in in Phoenix area. We uploaded his sermon library over the past couple of years, and we just said, hey, analyze me, you know, like, what are my, what are my themes? What am I repeating too much? What am I you know, am am I, am I, am I being diverse enough in my communication? You know, and it, it gave a deeply accurate profile of these are things you repeat. These are themes that are, ah that you, that you repeat. And it was just spot on. It was wild. It acted like a doctorate level, homiletics coach in a sense.Jon-Michael Sherman — And so we’re going to be doing some cool upgrades to My Library. Stay tuned.Eric Smith — Oh yeah.Jon-Michael Sherman — Right right now, you’ve got to be a little bit smart in the sense of like thinking about what to say. We’re going to make that a little bit more, click and go moving forward. But I’m telling you, if you upload your sermons in there, there’s a lot of amazing questions you can ask and you can get some honest feedback, maybe more honest feedback than your teaching team gives you. Who knows? So, the most honest one is our wife, right? Anyone else?Rich Birch — Yeah, true.Jon-Michael Sherman — Exactly. Yeah, she’ll tell you, but the AI will tell you too. you’ll They’ll tell you. So it’s great. We love it.Rich Birch — And that in My Librar…oh, sorry, Eric, I didn’t mean to cut you off.Eric Smith — Well, no, I was just going to say, I just want say this so I don’t forget. Maybe if you’ve heard about our product before, and this platform, and you tried it out months ago or a year ago, it’s so much better and so different. So I would just encourage you to jump back in and give it another go because the new features that are available are just absolutely phenomenal. And the reality that you can do the media and the research and the writing, is it’s it’s it’s just so robust in what it can do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s a good, that’s a good word. you know if I know there’s people that have tried it and maybe for one reason or another, maybe you you know you took ah took the summer off, you weren’t preaching for a few weeks and so you canceled. Hey, now’s a good time to re-up and you’ll be amazed all the different features that have been added and improved. Rich Birch — On the My Library, I just want to there’s a detail there I want to make sure we capture. You can upload. It’s a multimedia upload. You can upload audio, video. What’s that whole list of things that you can upload to that?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, everything from you know your files that you’ve written, your your sermons you’ve written. You can use Google Drive to link in. YouTube link is very popular, being able to you know upload your sermons via YouTube link. Jon-Michael Sherman — So it’s always better if you have the version where the the worship isn’t playing, but just just your sermon, that part, that’d be the good one to use when you upload it.Jon-Michael Sherman — But it is smart enough to know the difference. It’s, it’s wild. But it’s, it’s really amazing. So again, it’s not just every word that you’ve written. It’s every word you’ve, you’ve actually preached from the mic. You know, cause I’ve never written out my full stories. I don’t know about you guys, when you’re doing a sermon, I just say, tell this story, right. Rich Birch — Yes.Jon-Michael Sherman — [Inaudible] my notes. But the actual story I spoke through the mic. So it’s going to capture all of that when you’re in My Library.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true.Eric Smith — Well, one of the things on My Library is if you have other theological documents. For example, if it were you, Rich, you could take all your podcast and put there, right? All the scripts from your podcast, you could load up in there. Rich Birch — That’s great.Eric Smith — And so think outside the box. Don’t just think: sermons I’ve written or even sermons I’ve preached. Maybe it’s theological papers, maybe it’s blogs, maybe it’s podcasts. There’s other things that you can put in there as well.Rich Birch — Eric, I want to play the devil’s advocate here for a minute. Because I know there’s people that are probably thinking this. We’re 20 minutes in. They’re maybe interested but a little suspicious of just the use of AI in sermon prep in any way. They’re like, I just don’t know. This is this is this is a bridge too far. I’m just not sure we should be doing that. I’m you know, I’m I’m concerned. I’m nervous. I think you know this is going to be really negative for me. What would you say, not necessarily somebody who’s being combative, but is honestly asking you, is picking up with the phone and saying, Eric, I trust you. But talk to me about that.Eric Smith — Yeah, so I think everybody has to operate in the different convictions they have. Our belief is that we highly trust pastors.Eric Smith — Rich, you know thousands of pastors. We know thousands of pastors. Yeah, there’s a few out there that may not be the greatest, but pastors are amazing and they’re high integrity people. And so we trust you. You you operate with your conviction, number one. Eric Smith — Number two, I would just say this. You were already using it and you didn’t know it. We’ve been using AI for a long time. Google is AI. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true Eric Smith — What’s happened is it’s just gone from you know slow speed to super fast. And so really there is no difference in what we’re doing. It’s just delivering content faster. And people say stuff like AI is the devil or whatever. It’s just pulling data. It’s just pulling data.Eric Smith — I mean…So all it’s doing is the computers are so good and so smart that they can ah research and pull data faster than ever before. And so why would we not want to speed up that process? All of us are using Amazon because it sped up the process for me to get the thing delivered to my door. Is that a bad thing?Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — No. Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — I will say no pastor that we know of that’s ever used our product is just, you know, using AI and then stepping up on the platform and then using it to preach. They’re using it to research. They’re using it to to refine things. They’re using it to wrestle with, I have this statement. How can I say this better? They’re using it for things like sermon clips, and and or uploading your sermon in our discipleship area that we have on our platform, you can upload it. It’ll turn your sermon into kids curriculum. It’ll turn your sermon into small group curriculum. It’ll turn your sermon into small group questions. It does all that as well.Eric Smith — And so it’s taking your content and reorganizing it in a different way. Why would we not use? We’ve done this throughout history where we’ve used things to advance the speed of something. Of course, none of us ever want to get away from praying, seeking the Lord, asking the Holy Spirit to guide us and lead us. This is just allowing us to get the ingredients together faster…Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — …so that we can actually spend time on what makes a sermon great. What is it that makes a sermon great? It’s not what’s on the paper. I can preach the same sermon as someone else on Sunday and you could look at our paper and go, wow, that looks just the same. But one of our sermons might be a lot better because, number one, we allowed it to really take root in our heart. We allowed it to simmer in our soul.Eric Smith — And so if I can help pastors move faster through the researching and gathering of the material, so that they can put the sermon together and it really take root in their soul. And then second prep on the actual delivery of the sermon. In the platform we have a masterclass that I put together on, really, sermon delivery. If I can help pastors do that, what’s going to happen is it’s going to save them time, but not only is it going to save them time, it’s going to help them preach better sermons. And as said before, our focus, our heartbeat is to grow the church and to engage believers in the body of Christ. Rich Birch — It’s good.Eric Smith — And so for us, we can help pastors preach better, churches grow. Why? 82% of people choose their church based on the quality—it’s either 82 or 83. I could be off 1%—the quality of the sermon. Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Smith — And so, pastor, you should do everything you can to preach better sermons. And this is a tool that we want to come alongside you and serve you. We are here to serve and make your sermons better. And that’s our heart. So that’s what I would say.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. You know, I know that people have a concern anytime there’s new technology, but I love how you frame that, Eric, that it’s, in you know, it’s, We’re already using parts of this. It’s a part of all of our everyday lives. And how can we use it in a way to really accelerate the mission to try to get, you know. And I think that if I would say the only thing I would add, if I was listening in today and I had that hesitation, I would just take a step towards it and to learn about it, to actually try a tool like or try SermonDone specifically, ah you know, like and and see, hey, maybe there’s a way that this could help.Rich Birch — And I would agree with you. It’s not, you know, it’s not a, you don’t go in there and be like, hey, give me a great three-part sermon on John 3:16. You know, that’s not what this is. It’s, hey, I’m working on this. It’s a bunch of tools to help you think through and to process all of this and then to ultimately give you the the time to to prepare it.Rich Birch — Jon-Michael, what anything you’d add to that kind of the, maybe the hesitant pastor who’s who’s a little bit worried about this and is, you know, yeah doesn’t want to go left behind, but is also concerned about it?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, you know you know me, I’m probably going to be a little bit not as nice as Eric. would I’ll try to but i’ll try to be nice, but I’ll just put it this way. You know, look, it’s just the way it goes. When new tech comes into the church world, we go through five phases. The first phase is it’s demonic.Jon-Michael Sherman — You know, ah the Nephilim came down into spacecraft and and handed AI to, you know, Peter Thiel and he’s bringing the Antichrist and it’s over… Rich Birch — Right. Right. Jon-Michael Sherman — …you know, the the military is going to listen to me through SermonDone.com. Rich Birch — Yes. Jon-Michael Sherman — You know, like that’s, what’s I’ve had, I’ve talked to guys on the phone that have thought that, okay, that’s real life. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — Even it’s funny, but it’s true. It’s demonic.Rich Birch — Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — And then it goes, well, that evil mega church down the road is doing it, but I would never. I would never we grab our pearls and we clutch up.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — And then it goes to, well, I’m using it secretly, but I can’t tell my pastor. I can’t tell anybody you know I’m using it secretly.Rich Birch — Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — And then it goes to, well, of course we’re using it. And why isn’t everyone on staff using it? If you don’t use it the next 30 days, you’re getting fired. And then it goes from that to like, hey, welcome my breakout session here at Exponential. I’m going to be teaching you how I use AI. Well, 10 minutes ago, you thought it came off a spaceship, you know. But this is how we are, okay?Rich Birch — Right, right, right.Jon-Michael Sherman — Like this is just how we are. So we’re somewhere in the mix right now, depending on who’s listening. Okay, you know, it’s fun. But here’s the real issue is this. It truly is this. It It depends on which tribe you’re coming from. But there we, all of us, as lead pastors, guys that get in the pulpit, we all have one sin that we struggle with, and it’s pride. And we have to realize that we have this treasure, the gospel, it’s in a jar of clay. And you know what? Like we are broken vessels and we ah we we are a broken you know medium and the message is pure. The message is the gospel. The message has to go out. Jon-Michael Sherman — And so whether we’re using radio, television, artificial intelligence, you know, we’re streaming online right now using ah the Internet. The medium is is is not the thing that I’m worried about. It’s the message, is the gospel. And so whatever a tool the Lord gives us, let’s use it for his glory and our good. But let’s not let pride get in the way.Jon-Michael Sherman — So I’m going to speak into the Pentecostals because I grew up hanging from a chandelier. OK, I had a binky in one hand and a chandelier in the other. OK, I grew up Pentecostal holy roller.Jon-Michael Sherman — We have man-of-God complex. And this is what we do. Saturday night, the Lord speaks okay to pastor. And then he comes down from the mountain of God and he delivers the tablets, you know. Common phrase growing up was, I got woken up two in the morning. The Lord, the lord changed it up.Rich Birch — Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — Dude, you didn’t have a sermon until two in the morning last night. I know you’re you’re golfing all week.Rich Birch — Right, right. It’s called pressure. Last minute pressure. Yes.Jon-Michael Sherman — Exactly. Okay. And and it’s We struggle with that because we want to be the man of faith and power for the hour, Pentecostals.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jon-Michael Sherman — We do. And so like all of a sudden AI can help me do this faster and better. And what will my congregation think, led by the holy demon in Silicon Valley, you know, whatever. I’ve heard, I’ve seen the comments, right? It’s, but that’s, you know, it’s about humility. Like we have no new truth here. This is the truth that God gave us. Rich Birch — Yep.Jon-Michael Sherman — And we have to be faithful stewards of that truth. So we we can have nice outfits, but we better be true to the gospel. That’s my Pentecostal friends. Jon-Michael Sherman — Now to my Reformed friends, who I’m very close with. I had a very long conversation with a friend who’s deeply Reformed about our product. There’s a different pride issue because knowledge puffs up. And a lot of us in the Reformed world, man, we have gotten these badges of check out my master’s, check out my doctorate, check out my library. And, you know, and no one can orate or exegete the way I can.Jon-Michael Sherman — Well, hold up. AI can exegete pretty well, actually. And so there’s a pride issue there. And so I’ve seen that tribe having pride problems, too. But if we can make it not about the medium or the messenger, but make it about the message, it’s about the gospel of Jesus Christ.Jon-Michael Sherman — And so, unfortunately, I’ve just seen AI bring out a little bit of pride in every tribe. And I think we all just need to humble ourselves and say, this is just a tool. We are just messengers and ambassadors of Christ. Right. You know, like we have this message of reconciliation. And so the message is still the same. The messengers were still full of pride and we need to be humble before the Lord every Sunday.Jon-Michael Sherman — You know, there’s nothing more humbling than preaching, I would like to hope, but sometimes we get it twisted. So that’s my fun anecdote on that one for those are that are struggling in the midst of it. And and for those of that are still struggling, I did write a book for you. It’s called Pastoral Intelligence. It’s a book to help you figure out some of these big questions like, what is AI? How does it work? How do I make it work in my team? Jon-Michael Sherman — And maybe you don’t want to read the book because you don’t like reading because you have ADHD like me. I have memes in here. I’ll just teach you through memes. So you can use a meme and it’ll tell you what you need to know about AI.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s hilarious.Jon-Michael Sherman — But I want to encourage you to get that you if you’re struggling through it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s fantastic. And I would say, you know, my heart similarly, you know, I’ve spent, like I said this earlier in the podcast, I’ve spent most of my career in the second seat supporting incredible communicators who spend a lot of time, effort, energy, blood, sweat, tears on this. And I saw that my job, a part of my job was to remove barriers from that person’s life to try to make that part of what they do easier or so they could focus on that more. One of the lead pastors I worked to, incredible guy, His process, his sermon process, he would read about a thousand pages a week. That was pretty typical for him. And he would start writing after dinner on Saturday night.Rich Birch — He would write all Saturday night, finish his slides at two or three in the morning, email them to our team. We’d get the slides made up early morning. And we tried to change this process. I’m like, I’m not sure that this is super healthy for you. He had been doing it for 20 years or 15 years by the time I had got and interacted with him. And I’ve often thought about Sermon Don. I thought, man, if we had this tool back then, we could have saved a lot of you know blood, sweat, and tears. There’s you know there’s a part of that research that we just didn’t need to be doing.Rich Birch — So anyways, I’m glad, heartily endorsed, excited that you guys are are doing what you’re doing. As we come to to land the plane, Eric, any kind of final words from you that you would say to a pastor who’s listening in today? I want to make sure pastors actually go to sermondone.com and actually try it out. Anything else we want to be saying to people as we land the plane today?Eric Smith — Yeah, you can tell Jon-Michael’s, the one that’s the most fun in the group, right?Rich Birch — Yeah!Eric Smith — Now, I would just say, you know, you should give it a shot. And it’s it’s it’s not even doing, you still have to read the research it gives you. It’s just gathering the content for you. And for me, I’m like, I don’t I don’t really let the noise bother me of the culture or what this person or that person is saying, I’m trying to serve the people that God has has called me to serve. And so if I can more effectively do that in a way that honors the Lord and reaches people…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.Eric Smith — …that’s, that’s my heart. And I know that’s every pastor that’s on here. That’s what they’re doing too. And so, uh, yeah, I would just invite you to give it a shot. Doesn’t hurt. Uh, when you sign up too, I think we have a code RICH20 to give 20% off because we love Rich Birch and the unSeminary podcast.Rich Birch — That’s great.Eric Smith — I guess Rich brings so much amazing content to the church world and God has used him in such a just a special way helping churches think through growth and strategy and systems and how to scale and you know the right things to do and so we’d love for you to try that out. And thanks, Rich, for all your time and what you meant to us.Rich Birch — No, I appreciate that, Eric. And we we keep saying this. We’ve got to have you on to just talk about the church side of your world at some point. We’re always like, well, we could get to that, but there’s always so much good stuff to talk about on SermonDone. We’ll have to have you back just on that. Jon-Michael, any any final words from you?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, you know, I think it’s aptly put right now that no one here is is going to be replaced by AI, but maybe, you know, you might be replaced by someone who knows some of you as AI well. And I think it’s it’s a it’s a skill and a tool that you have to be embracing right now. And I think everyone needs to do that. Jon-Michael Sherman — Now, in three years, there’s a very good chance you know we’ll be back on the podcast and we’ll be talking about you know how to replace a staff member with an optimist robot, you know. I can imagine you know, I like you know youth pastors, optimist robot. You know, youth leader at camp, optimist robot. No one wants to be with a fourteen year old bunch of 14-year-olds at youth camp, you know optimist robot. With security at church, optimist robot with a gun. There’s a lot of great opportunities here in the future.Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Oh, my goodness.Jon-Michael Sherman — But I will say this, I’m just teasing, but like AI is so great. It’s a wonderful tool for God’s glory and our good. Let’s embrace it. Let’s like shake off the naysayers, enjoy it, love it. And we’re so glad we built this. We made this for you and we want you to have it and try it. And we’d love to have you jump on.Rich Birch — That’s so good. So again, that’s just SermonDone.com. You can use that code RICH20. I really would encourage you to, to try it friends. I think it’s a great tool. It can save you so much time. And so that you can focus either on, you know, working on that delivery piece of the puzzle or more time leading your teams, more time connecting with people, you know, counseling folks, whatever, you know, there, I just think it’s a huge tool for you. So yeah again, that’s just SermonDone.com. Thanks so much. Really appreciate you guys being here today.Eric Smith — Thanks.Jon-Michael Sherman — Thanks, Rich.

Brandon Boyd, Executive Pastor at Quay Church who helped scale operations through a rapid replant and growth season. He talks about moving from a flat structure to tiered leadership for clearer decision-making. He explains SIMPLE systems like Asana, Slack, and Otter to create accountability. He also discusses protecting culture, staff care, and signs of spiritual health beyond attendance.

Dr. Allen Holmes, longtime senior pastor who grew Definition Church from 30 to one of the fastest-growing congregations, shares a journey of character formation. He recounts a marriage crisis that exposed blind spots. He emphasizes spiritual rhythms, prioritizing presence over performance, embedding formation into church culture, and the power of long-term leadership.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Lou Pizzichillo, Lead Pastor of Community Church on Long Island. Community Church launched in January 2020—just ten weeks before the world shut down—then relaunched after 52 weeks online. Now averaging around 1,200 people across Thursday and Sunday services, Community is known as “a church for people who don’t go to church.” In a region where skepticism toward organized religion runs deep, Lou and his team are building trust by creating space for honest questions, lived-out faith, and tangible community impact. Is your church serving in a skeptical environment? Are you trying to reach people who already think they know—and don’t like—what church is about? Lou shares practical wisdom on posture, transparency, and earning trust one decision at a time. Starting where people really are. // On Long Island, while some residents may identify culturally with faith traditions, most see church as judgmental, hypocritical, or irrelevant to everyday life. Lou quickly realized that the biggest obstacle wasn’t apathy—it was reputation. Rather than fighting skepticism, Community Church chose to acknowledge it. The church repeatedly communicates three cultural values: You can belong before you believe. You have permission to be in progress. And there’s no pretending. These aren’t slogans—they shape how the church operates. Permission to be in progress. // One of the most resonant phrases at Community is “permission to be in progress.” Many people assume that following Jesus requires instant agreement with every doctrine and behavior expectation. Instead, Community encourages people to wrestle honestly with the claims of Christ first. Secondary issues and sanctification come later. This posture doesn’t mean watering down truth—it means sequencing it wisely. By focusing on who Jesus says he is, rather than debating every peripheral topic, the church keeps the main thing central. No pretending—and real transparency. // Transparency builds credibility in skeptical contexts. Stories of real life—parenting mistakes, marriage tensions, leadership missteps—often resonate more than polished success stories. At the same time, Lou draws a boundary between “scars and wounds.” He shares what he has processed, not what he is still unraveling. This authenticity signals that faith isn’t about perfection but transformation. For many in the congregation, seeing a pastor admit imperfection dismantles years of distrust toward church leaders. Becoming an asset to the community. // Community Church doesn’t just talk about loving Babylon—it demonstrates it. Early on, Lou realized trust would not come through marketing but through partnership. Before launch, the church created “12 Days of Christmas,” giving away gifts purchased from local businesses. In year one, stores hesitated to participate; by year seven, businesses were reaching out to collaborate. What began as skepticism has shifted to partnership because trust was earned gradually. Serving instead of competing. // A defining moment came during the annual Argyle Fair, a 30,000-person event held across the street from the church—on a Sunday. Rather than fight the inconvenience, Community canceled services and mobilized volunteers to serve the fair, providing parking and manpower. When the event was rescheduled due to rain, the church canceled services a second week to honor its commitment. Lou describes this as a defining cultural moment: demonstrating that service isn’t convenient—it’s convictional. Earning trust through inconvenience. // Lou recounts being called to the mayor’s office days after launch to address parking concerns. Instead of pushing back, the church chose to rent additional parking space—even when legally unnecessary—to honor neighbors’ concerns. In another instance, Community canceled a planned Christmas light show after Village neighbors expressed concern about traffic. Though disappointing internally, the decision earned significant community goodwill. Lou believes canceling the event built more trust than hosting it would have. Posture over persecution. // Lou cautions leaders against defaulting to a persecution narrative when facing resistance. Most pushback, he says, comes from practical concerns—not hostility toward Jesus. By listening humbly and responding thoughtfully, churches can win trust among the large percentage of community members who are neither strongly for nor against them. To learn more about Community Church, visit communitychurch.net or follow @communitychurch.li on social media. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, thanks so much for listening in, tuning in into today’s episode. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. We’re talking with a leader leading a prevailing church in frankly a part of the country that is not known for tons of prevailing churches. And so it’s an opportunity for all of us to lean in and to learn.Rich Birch — Super excited to have Lou Pizzichillo with us from Community Church. They’re in Babylon, New York on Long Island. They’re known as a church for people who don’t go to church. They’re big on being real, bringing real questions, struggles, hangups, doubts, disappointments, and failures. Lou, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here today.Lou Pizzichillo — Thanks so much. Yeah, it’s a privilege to be here.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s an honor that you would take some time to be with us today. Why don’t you kind of tell us a bit of the Community story, kind of give us a flavor of the church, help us kind of imagine if we were to arrive this weekend, what what would we experience?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So we have an interesting history. We launched in January of 2020. And so we were open for 10 weeks.Rich Birch — Great time.Lou Pizzichillo — I know it was perfect. And then we closed down for 52 weeks, and we relaunched. But because of that, what’s been really cool is, you know, when you’re launching a church, the launch team is a big deal. And to launch twice, we’ve had really like two two launch teams. And so team culture has always been a real big part of our church.Lou Pizzichillo — But yeah, we like to say that we’re a church for people who don’t go to church. and So we try to keep things pretty casual. We try not to assume that there’s any interest or experience with the people who are showing up on a Sunday. And yeah.Rich Birch — Nice. Give us a sense of, so like size and like your, you know, the ministry style, that sort of thing. Like what would you help us kind of place what the, what the church is like if I was to arrive, arrive on a weekend?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, we’re a pretty contemporary attractional church. We’ve got services on Thursday night and on Sunday morning. So we say the weekend starts on Thursday. Rich Birch — Love it. Lou Pizzichillo — We call Thursday night thurch, which is… Rich Birch — Oh, that’s funny. Thurch. Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, it was a joke at first, but then it kind of like, I don’t know, just kind of gained a life of its own.Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — So yeah, so the church over the course of the weekend, right now we’re at about 1,200. And it’s exciting. There are a lot of new people. And things are constantly change changing. Change is that really the only constant for us.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good. Well, you’re on Long Island, and I can say as somebody who I ministered for years in New Jersey, I’m from Canada, I I get that people don’t wake up on Long Island on Sunday morning and think, hey, I should go to church today. Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — You’re serving a community that is is more unchurched than other parts of the country, which is a challenge for planting. So help us understand, you know, help us just kind of get into the mindset or the um perspective of people who are outside of the church. What do they view on, you know, Christianity? Tell us, give us a sense of of kind of what you’ve learned, you know, planting in that kind of context.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So one thing that was really helpful right off the bat was somebody mentioned to me, they were like, you know, I’m not a gym person. And so when a new gym opens up in town, I don’t even really notice it.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And they’re like, I think it’s the same thing for church people.Rich Birch — Right. Lou Pizzichillo — It’s like, if you’re not a church person, then you don’t really notice when churches are doing things. And so that’s like, really, it’s a big reason why we’re so vocal about saying it we’re a church for people who don’t go to church, you know?Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — Um, and yeah, from there, honestly, we found that the biggest obstacle with people here is the existing reputation of church, of what church is like and what church people are like.Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — This church is seen as very judgmental, hypocritical, fake, exclusive, impractical, you know, it’s something you just do to kind of check the boxes and then you go on with your life. I’ve spoken to even a lot of, um, like devout Catholics here who have, have said like, they don’t, they do their church thing because, because it’s what they think that they’re supposed to do, but they’re, what they are doing in church does not translate to everyday life.Lou Pizzichillo — And so church is seen as kind of an impractical thing. And, that’s kind of the starting point for a lot of people who we’re trying to connect with.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’ve heard it said in other contexts, it’s like, not that people don’t know the church. It’s like, it’s what they know that they don’t like.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — It’s like, they have a sense of, you know, that that reputation. Are there any, maybe even stories or engagement you know conversations or engagements you’ve had with folks that have kind of brought that reputation to the fore. That obviously has led you to say, hey, we’re going position ourselves as a church where people don’t go into churches. Was there something that kind of influenced that as you were having, you know, even in these early years as you’ve been kind of get the ball rolling?Lou Pizzichillo — A big part of it honestly is a lot of my extended family. Like they’re, most of them are not church people. You know, they have a lot of respect for God. Like most people on Long Island, uh, especially, you know, most kind of nominal Catholics, like they would say they’re Italian or Irish. They say, oh, of course, Jesus is my savior. You know, like they, they know the right things to say, but in terms of what it actually means on a regular basis, it’s like kind of a totally different thing. So, so yeah, I mean, that’s kind of, kind of where we’re starting.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, people have criticisms about the church and they have criticisms of of their experience with the church. How do you discern between criticisms that maybe you either need to be challenged, like, hey, that’s actually just not true, or like, oh, that’s a critique that is actually fair, and we’re going to try to steer in a different direction, ah you know, than that. Help us think about those, you know, when we think about skepticism towards the church.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, I think, honestly, the best thing for us has just been to have a posture of listening.Rich Birch — That’s good.Lou Pizzichillo — Because even even if their claims aren’t valid, a lot of their experiences are. And so, you know, they’re like, there’s somebody who’s been going to the church for a while now, and somebody that was very close to them has like a pretty intense story of church hurt, like real damage. And so to know that he’s walking in with all of this baggage and that there are a lot of other people walking in with that baggage that don’t let you know that they have that baggage… Rich Birch — Right. Lou Pizzichillo — …just kind of giving them the space to, to be hurt and for it to be real. That’s been huge for us just having that kind of posture of humility. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So that obviously has led to the way you’ve developed either the way you talk about ministry or the values that are underlining, you know, the ministry.Rich Birch — What has been important for helping communicate or articulate to people like, hey, this is a place that you can show up, you know, before you, you know, you’ve kind of bought it all. It’s like, Hey, you there’s a place to explore that sort of thing. Help us think through how do you communicate and then how do those, whether they’re phrases or yeah that sort of thing, how does that translate then into the values of how you actually operate?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So big thing is for us, it’s training the team, like getting those values into the team and helping them to understand what that looks like in a concrete way. So we say, like a lot of churches say, you can belong before you believe. And the the illustration I give almost every single time, I’m like, if somebody walks in with a church, with a shirt that says, I hate God, we are glad that person is here, right? Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — Like we’re not assuming that they are walking in with interest or experience. And they might have a story that’s a lot more complicated than we know. So um so yes, we try to celebrate that.Lou Pizzichillo — When somebody walks in and they’re very open about their beliefs and their views not lining up with us, that’s something that we celebrate, right? Like because these are the people that we want here.Lou Pizzichillo — The other value that’s been really helpful for us is to say that people have permission to be in progress. And that has to do with their actions, the choices that they make, but also the things that they believe. And so you can be on board with some of our beliefs and not be on board with all of our beliefs. And we’re okay with that, right?Lou Pizzichillo — Like rather than just saying, okay, I accept all of it at one time. And now I completely agree that everything in the Bible is true. And, you know, I endorse it. Like we just kind of give people space to say, okay, like let’s maybe let’s start with the claims of Jesus, like right to this guy really rise from the dead. And now let’s look at what he says about things like the Old Testament, you know?Lou Pizzichillo — And so that’s that’s been a huge thing. We go back to that over and over and over again. It started as kind of like a main point in a sermon where I was like, you’ve got permission to be in progress. And so many people repeated it back to me that I was like, okay, this needs to be woven into our culture because it needs to be articulated…Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — …or people just assume, okay, if I’m going to say I believe, I got to say I believe it all. And there’s no room for disagreement.Lou Pizzichillo — And then from there, we say like, you got you can belong before you believe, you got permission to be in progress. And if both of those things are actually true for us as a church, then we can also say like our third value is no pretending.Lou Pizzichillo — Like you don’t have to pretend to be on board with certain things if you’re not there yet. And I think if we create an environment where people can be real and dialogue and be open about the things that they’re, you know, that they disagree with, I think that’s where there’s real hope for ultimately ending in a place of alignment.Rich Birch — Yeah, permission to be in progress to me feels very like a very Jesus value It feels like, oh, that to me, that’s like when I read the New Testament, that feels like the way he oriented himself to the people around him, right? There were clearly people that were like the rich young ruler came to him and was like, you know, asked a pointed question. Jesus gave a clear answer, and he didn’t, you know, Jesus didn’t, even though he said harsh words to or clear words, I would say, all was it always done in an environment of trying to say, hey, we I want you to be a part of this conversation. I’m really trying to be on the same side of the table. How do I bring you along?Rich Birch — Can you, like, let’s double click on permission to be in progress. Talk us through what that looks like. Because I think, I think so many churches draw very strong lines on like, you got to believe these 15 things to be a part here. Even if we wouldn’t explicitly set that say that, it’s like implicit in our cultures.Rich Birch — How does your culture look different when you say, hey, you’ve got permission to be in progress? What would be some of the things that might stand out to us as like, that’s a little bit different than how maybe some other churches handle this?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So we have like we have values, but then we also just have sayings, right? Like it it is too hard for me to define what the most important values are. Like I get too obsessed with the wording and how we’re going to phrase things. And so in our our conference room, we have a big whiteboard and we write down little sayings. We actually write them in permanent marker on the whiteboard, which is wasteful, but at least we have something to reference.Lou Pizzichillo — So when somebody says something and we’re like, hey, that’s a culture thing, it gets written on the board. One of the things that came up that’s really helped us with this idea of permission to be in progress is that the goal is to get people to Jesus and everything else is secondary. Everything else comes after that.Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep, that’s good.Lou Pizzichillo — And so I’m not going to like get into it with someone over a secondary issue or really something that’s an issue of sanctification, when we believe sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit, right? Maybe your view on that will change after you understand who Jesus is and begin to follow him.Lou Pizzichillo — And so in a lot of ways, I feel like when we when we get too into the issues, we’re putting the cart before the horse, right? Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — And so we’re trying to bring people to Jesus and show him show them what he’s like. And ah that that has been clarifying when it comes to permission to be in progress.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And I think in heavily church context, when we kind of assume, oh, basically everyone here has some level of faith, those secondary issues can become like a really big deal. It’s like we spend a lot of time talking about those things.Rich Birch — But when the majority of people we’re interacting with you know, they haven’t, they haven’t really, really wrestled with what they think about Jesus and the difference he can make in this life. And we got to keep that, that really clear. Rich Birch — So no pretending is an interesting value as a communicator. How do you live that out in the way you show transparency? There’s this interesting thing years ago, I had one of the ah preacher that I love or communicator. I just think the world of, you know, he talked about how there’s this tension when we’re, communicating that, you know, we’re we’re trying to be transparent, but up into a point and how, where is that point? And how do we do that in a way that’s not, that brings people along? So ah what what does that look like for you even as a as ah as a leader to say, hey, it’s not my job to pretend. I’m going to just be honest and transparent, authentic to where we are? Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. Well, I mean, I can definitely say that every time I tell a story that has me screwing up, it is it is the thing that people come to tell me about. Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — Like, oh, thank you so much for telling me about you know the way you spoke to your kids… Rich Birch — Yes. Lou Pizzichillo — …or the thing that you said to your wife. Or it is just by far the thing that people love to hear. And that’s been encouraging. Now, I have had people like throw it back at me and that that comes with the territory. But I think that the stories of how that’s been helpful for people um like dramatically outweigh the people that are going to you know weaponize that stuff against you.Lou Pizzichillo — Something else I heard, um I think Brene Brown said this in one of her books. She said she doesn’t share things she hasn’t processed through yet.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And that for me is a really helpful thing. Like If I’m in the middle of something and just in the thick of it, it’s not the time for me to like bring that to the congregation. I think that could be really unhealthy for a lot of reasons.Lou Pizzichillo — So that’s, that’s kind of something that, and it doesn’t mean I can’t share something that just happened. You know sometimes I’ll explain an issue that just happened with my kids. That’s different than something I’m still processing and haven’t resolved yet.Rich Birch — Right. I think she said it’s the difference between scars and wounds, right? You can talk about your scars. That’s like, that’s an area that has, has had some level of healing to it versus an open wound, right? Like this is a part that’s, that’s still gaping.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah.Rich Birch — And, uh, you know, we don’t necessarily want to to share that. And that, you know, uh, that is a change. So I’m, you know, I’m of a certain age, been in this game a long time. And I remember when we first started, when I first started, that generation that came before me, people wanted like the superhuman religious leader. They wanted the like pastor to be, to have their stuff a hundred percent sewed up. Like, don’t tell me that you’re a real human. They didn’t want that.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, and that has completely reversed.Rich Birch — People are like, no no, like you said, we, we need to be transparent, open, authentic. People know that we’re not perfect. Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. Rich Birch — They know that we don’t have it all together. Lou Pizzichillo — Right.Rich Birch — And when we try to hide that, when we try to, in your language, pretend that actually is repulsive, it pushes them away. Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah.Rich Birch — One of the things that stood out to me just by reputation, kind of seeing your church is it appears that you guys have a conviction around getting out and serving the community, actually making a difference in the community. You know, it strikes me as very ah a very James-approach, faith in action – it’s it should make a difference in our community. What how do talk to me about what that looks like for Community. How does that, even your name, Community, you know, Church, reflects that. Talk talk to talk to me about what that looks like.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, so we’re pretty clear. Like we we tell people we want to be an asset to the community. We want people to be glad we’re here, whether they attend our church or not. And so that started really early. Actually, before we launched, we did this thing called the 12 Days of Christmas where, so our church is in a village, right? So there are a lot of local businesses around us. What we did is during the 12 days leading up to Christmas, we went to shops and we gave away gifts from those shops. There was a different shop every day for the 12 days leading up to Christmas. So we planned this out ahead of time. But we would post on social media and be like, Hey, today the, you know, the shop is Bunger surf shop. The first 25 people there are going to get beanies from Bunger surf shop.Lou Pizzichillo — And we paid for them. We sent the, Bunger agreed to hand them out. And people went to go get them. And what was, so it was a win, win, win, really. Like the people who participated got free beanies, the surf shop are like all the different shops in the village. They got people to go, they got traffic to their business, right?Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.Lou Pizzichillo — Because people went in then bought other stuff. And it helped us communicate that we we say we want something for you, not from you, right? We want to be an asset to the community. And so it helped us communicate that message. And the response to that has been great.Lou Pizzichillo — Now, what’s interesting, if this doesn’t tell you something about the church’s reputation, on year one, before we launched, it was very hard to get 12 shops to agree to do this with us. Like they were like, you’re a church? I’m sorry. No, we’re not doing it.Rich Birch — Forget it. Yeah.Lou Pizzichillo — Now it’s year seven. Right now we’re in the middle of our our seventh year and there are shops lining up to do it. There are shops reaching out to us, asking us to collaborate.Rich Birch — Wow.Lou Pizzichillo — They’re helping to pay for the stuff. So it’s actually in some ways getting a little bit cheaper.Rich Birch — Huh.Lou Pizzichillo — And it’s just cool. It’s shown like this posture of partnership with what’s going on… Rich Birch — Yes. Lou Pizzichillo — …rather than, okay, there are the shops and then there’s the church. Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — And yeah, we actually have a someone on staff now who first heard about the church on year one during the 12 days of Christmas. She started coming to the church. she eventually got baptized and now she’s on staff. And it’s just like, it has been so, so cool.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. That’s what a cool, you know, even just a cool tactic, kind of an expression of that. Is there other ways, other kind of activities like that, that you’re engaged with throughout the year that would could illustrate this idea of being for the community, being an asset to the community? What would be another example of that that that’s happened?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So there is this fair that happens right across the street from the church. It’s called the Argyle Fair. It’s it’s around a lake. There are about 30,000 people that come to this fair. And the fair is on a Sunday during church.Lou Pizzichillo — The first year that we were here and had services during that Sunday, it was a mess. There were people you know like parking all over the place. It was hard to have services. Traffic was crazy. And we left church and my wife and I walked to the fair and just felt like something didn’t feel right. Like there’s some, here’s something everybody’s doing and we’re fighting against it.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — So we went to the people who ran the fair and we were like, is there any way we can help? Like, is there, what do you guys need? And right away she was like, we need volunteers and we need parking. And as a church, we are uniquely equipped with volunteers and parking. Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo —And so really it was there, like that almost right away, we were like, okay, next year, ah we’re going to be on board with what you’re doing.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Lou Pizzichillo — And so we decided to cancel services. And in the weeks leading up to that, we teach about the importance of serving the community. It’s kind of like the grand finale to whatever, you know…Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — …outreach series or message is being given.Rich Birch — Yeah.Lou Pizzichillo — And um yeah, so we teach on that. And then we’re like, hey, you know, two weeks from now, we’re not going to have services. Instead, we’re going to go out instead of staying in here talking about serving, we’re going to go out there and serve. And, you know, we’ve said like… Rich Birch — Love that. Lou Pizzichillo — …yeah, what’s what’s happening out there is not more spiritual than what’s happening in here. It’s a different way to express and grow in our faith. So we did that. And the response has just been unbelievable. Like the community has loved it. The the fair has had the help that they need. The people in our church have loved it. But this year we actually it got rained out on the first week. And so they postponed it to the next week.Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Lou Pizzichillo — And that made it tough for us because now we were like, okay, are we going to cancel church two weeks in a row? Rich Birch — Right. Lou Pizzichillo — And we had a meeting about it and like looked at our values, looked at what we were talking about. We were like, you know what, this is actually an opportunity for us to really double down and say, we’re not doing this out of convenience. We’re doing this because it’s a value. And so I called up the guy who was running the fair and he was like, I get it. If you can’t do it, I get it. And it felt, it was, it was amazing to be able to say on the phone, like, Hey, we’re with you, uh, no matter what. So, uh, so we did and it was, it was awesome.Rich Birch — That’s incredible. Like ah that, again, that what a vivid example, because I think there’s a lot of church leaders, if we’re honest, we’ve been engaged in the conversation that’s literally on the opposite side of that, where we’re like, man, how do we, these people, they’re, you know, they’re cramping our style or whatever. It’s like we naturally default towards that rather than to serve. Rich Birch — Take us back early in the discussions because I think a lot of us have not done a good job in building trust bridges in our communities. And you know trust isn’t built with just you know, one conversation. It takes time, right? It takes, like you said, those those first 12 days of Christmas, you couldn’t get anybody. And now here’s seven years later. We want we want to get to the seven years later part really quickly.Rich Birch — But ah those early conversations, how are you handling yourself, interacting with the like other people, you know, approaching them, having those conversations. What did you learn in the early dialogue that could help us if we’re trying to build, you know, deeper community trust in a place that just is so skeptical of that we’re coming with, just looking to take from our people.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. I mean, you have to be willing to be inconvenienced. I think that’s been a big part of it.Lou Pizzichillo — On week one, so we we launched literally on the first day and launch day was bigger than we thought it was going to be. And on that Monday, I was called to the mayor’s office, the mayor of the village.Lou Pizzichillo — And I was like, okay, thought I was going to go have a conversation. And when I got there, it was the it was him, it was the head of code enforcement and the fire chief all in a room waiting for me Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Lou Pizzichillo — And they had pictures of cars parked all over the street. And I I realized there, like, there was a real concern about what this church was going to be in the community.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so from there, we’ve just been looking for opportunities to earn trust. The neighbors have made it very clear that they don’t like cars parking on the street. And so we, we began paying for a lot so that we could take the cars off of the street. We don’t have to, they can legally park in the street, but we rent the lot. We told the owner of the property why we’re doing it. And he got on board with what we’re doing. We’re now in a place, kind of a long story, but we now don’t have to pay for that lot.Rich Birch — Wow.Lou Pizzichillo — We also, like the trust has been earned one decision at a time. We were going to do this big thing in the parking lot. We did a parking lot renovation that took the whole summer. After the summer, we were like, hey, in our new parking lot, let’s put on a Christmas show. We’ll run it throughout two weeks in December.Lou Pizzichillo — We had an animator who goes to the church. He like had this great idea for a show. He’s like, we’ll project it on the building. People will drive in. We’ll run it multiple times a night, do it for a few weeks throughout December. We were calling it Christmas in Lights.Lou Pizzichillo — So we put this whole plan together. He’s making the thing. We start advertising it and the village comes to us and they’re like, you’re in violation of the code. You can’t do this. And and they’re giving us all these reasons that I felt like didn’t really hold that much weight, you know.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — But in thinking about it, I do understand the inconvenience it would have been. We just had a major parking lot renovation. There were huge trucks making tons of noise for months. Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And now that’s finally over. And we’re going to ask the village to deal with the traffic of a show happening every single night, you know, for a few weeks in December.Rich Birch — Right Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so I went to the mayor and I was like, hey, ah it’s a new mayor at this point. But I just sat down with her and I was like, hey, listen, if you have concerns about this, I want you to feel the freedom to just come to me and say, this is a lot for the neighbors. Like, what do you think about pulling this in?Lou Pizzichillo —And it was cool. It was an opportunity for the two of us to kind of bond, like there was some trust earned there and we canceled the show. We decided not to do it. And I released a video explaining why we weren’t doing it.Rich Birch — Wow.Lou Pizzichillo — And the amazing thing is that I think canceling the show accomplished more than we would have accomplished if we actually did the show.Rich Birch — Interesting.Lou Pizzichillo — Like it earned, it was so well received when people found out that we weren’t going to do it. They were like, and even the people that attend the church, they were like, I want to be part of a church that supports their community like this.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so it went really well, and it was a lot less work, and so it was it was kind of a win all around. Rich Birch — What did the animators say? I feel but feel bad for that person who started doing that work. Did they understand. Obviously, they’re bummed or concerned.Lou Pizzichillo — He was bummed out, but he’s one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet, and so he he totally got it. And he’s on board with what we’re trying to do, and when he knew the reason why, he was totally, totally supportive of it.Rich Birch — Interesting. So where have you seen churches kind of get this wrong as we’ve tried to engage with the community? Maybe a common a pothole that we fall into or a way that we stub our toes, you know, a thing maybe you’ve you’ve you’ve seen that we just, we you know, kind of consistently make the same mistake.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. You know, one of my mentors told me a while ago, he was like, when you’re thinking about the church in the community, he’s like, there’s a small percentage of people that are for you. He said, there’s, there’s also a small percentage of people that are anti-church and they always will be, and you’re not going to change their minds.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And he’s like, but then there’s this large percentage that’s just kind of going to go one way or the other. And he’s like, that’s the percentage that you really have to be intentional about connecting with.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so I think, you know, it is very easy to tell the story like, hey, they don’t want us to do our Christmas show. This is persecution… Rich Birch — Yes. Lou Pizzichillo — …you know, and we got to fight and suffer for the name of Jesus. And ah we’ve just found that that’s not always the case. Rich Birch — Right. Lou Pizzichillo — You know, it’s people that don’t want to be inconvenienced and they may love church, but there’s there’s all this stuff going in the community. Maybe they maybe they have you know other reasons why. So i think I think it’s just the posture.Lou Pizzichillo — Like a lot of, most people, most people aren’t unreasonable. And I think if we give them the chance to really articulate what’s going on, I’ve been surprised at how understandable a  lot of the feelings have been, a lot of the resistance to church comes from real stories, real experiences.Rich Birch — Right, right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so, yeah, I think it’s the you know the whole like persecution thing or suffering or that is real and people do really experience that. But a lot of times I think we’re a little too quick to say, oh, this is what that is when really it may not be.Rich Birch — Well, and it it’s, ah in some ways, it’s like a low form of, well, it’s a leadership shortcut for sure to like demonize, to like, oh, there, those people are come out to get us. You know, any leader that’s led before realizes, oh, that’s like a that’s a tool that actually works. People respond to that, but, but we don’t want to do that. Like that isn’t, these are the people we’re trying to love and care. These are people we’re trying to see point towards Jesus. They’re not our enemies.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — They’re not, you know, they’re, they’re not, they might just not like parking, like you at the end of the day.Lou Pizzichillo — Right. Right.Rich Birch — And so let’s not, let’s not get over-revved, ah you know, on that. And unfortunately there are, I know, you know, way too many churches that have got themselves on the wrong side of this. And it’s very hard to backwards engineer out of that. Once you go down that road of like, we’re going to try to go negative with our community. That just isn’t, it’s just, it’s, it’s very difficult to to step back from that.Rich Birch — If you think about a church leader that’s listening in today and they’re, they’re saying, Hey, They’re thinking we want to do a better job being trusted more locally, trusted by local leaders, trusted by other you know businesses in town, that sort of thing. What would be a couple first steps you think they could take? A couple things where they could start to try to build that kind of trust with the community around them?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. You know, I think I’m a big believer in praying for those opportunities. And also just giving things a second look, you know. When you’re in a situation that may seem like a challenge or something that may seem like it’s getting in the way, to just stop and think, okay, is, is there an opportunity here to build trust with the community?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Lou Pizzichillo — Because we, and when we say the community, we’re not just talking about this nebulous, you know, idea of Babylon village. There are people there.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And if those people see this church as trustworthy, they may come here, you know, when their relationships are falling apart or when they’re looking for answers.Rich Birch — Yep.Lou Pizzichillo — Um, and so it’s really just been… We have great people here who have bought into what we’re doing, who have really helped us to see like, this is an opportunity to win with the community. And yeah, you gotta, you have to look outside the box and, and also be willing to, there, there are moments like with Church Has Left the Building—with the fair—and with the Christmas and light show, there are moments where they’ll see, okay, do you really care? Do you really care?Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — Like are how how much will you inconvenience yourself? And I mean, the payoff from that has just been huge, even though it’s been an inconvenience and our giving goes down that week and it throws off the series and we got to restructure the calendar.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — It has gone, there’s there’s never been a time where we’ve regretted it.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good. And, you know, there’s no doubt one of the things I think we can in our our little world of kind of church leadership, I think we can forget often that people in the communities that we’re serving, they really don’t have any frame of reference for a church of 1,200 people. Like they that that isn’t people’s normal perception of what a church is. Like a church is 25 people or 50 people in a room somewhere super small.Rich Birch — And, and their perception can be, they just don’t, they just don’t have any idea. What is that? What’s that look like? And some of that can skew negative because it’s busy and blah, blah, blah, all those things. And so we’ve, we, we have to take it on ourselves when our church gets to the size that you’re at or larger to try to help them understand and see though this is like really positive for the community and actually point towards that.Lou Pizzichillo — Yes.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.Lou Pizzichillo — Yes. And, and like along those lines, ah it’s also perceived as a source of power, right? Like if, if there, if you have 1500 people that all believe the same thing and you’re trying to run a village or a community, there is this, this sense of like, okay, well, are they going to be for us or against us? Like, are all these people going to be anti-village?Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so there is like that, that instinct to kind of protect from this group of people that make, make things really hard for us. But over time, as they begin to see like all these people are, are behind us, they’re here to support us and they want to make this place better.Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — It’s, it really is a beautiful thing. And we’re not there yet as a church, but we’re getting there. And, uh, we’ve just seen a lot of, lot of positive signs and, uh, Yeah, think it’s paid off.Rich Birch — So good, Lou. That’s, that’s great. Just as we wrap up today’s conversation, any kind of final words you’d have to, ah you know, to leaders that are listening in thinking about these issues today?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. I mean, I think I would just say it’s worth it. It’s it’s messy. It does make things difficult. It can be inconvenient. And when you have people who don’t go to church coming to church and you give them permission to be in progress, you get a lot of hairy situations. And we have a lot of conversations where we’re trying to figure out which way to go.Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.Lou Pizzichillo — But it’s in those conversations that we cant kind of stop and remind ourselves like, Hey, we’re, we’re glad that these people are here and we’re glad that these are the problems that we’re having. And, the end of the day, this is what we feel like it’s all about. So.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I just want to encourage you as you’re leading, you’re doing a great job and and it’s been fun to get a chance to get a little window into what’s going on at Community. Want to encourage you and your your team, just you’re doing the right thing. If people want to track with the church or with you online, where do we want to send them to connect with you guys?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, so communitychurch.net is our website. On Instagram, we’re communitychurchli, we’re @communitychurchli, and we try to keep that handle throughout all the platforms. So YouTube, same thing. But yeah, that’s it.Rich Birch — Great. Thanks for for being here today, Lou.Lou Pizzichillo — Thanks for having me, Rich. It’s an honor to be here, and I love what you guys are doing for the church.

Curt Banter, CEO of Portable Church Industries who designs volunteer-friendly portable systems. Jeff Beachum, PCI executive who helps churches launch and run portable campuses. They discuss recognizing the 70–80% capacity tipping point. They cover portable solutions as strategic bridges, common on-site and off-site choices, volunteer-friendly designs, and how portability preserves momentum without rushing into permanent builds.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jason and Nan Britt from Bethlehem Church, one of the fastest-growing churches in the country with three campuses in Georgia—and a fourth on the way. Jason serves as Lead Pastor, while Nan has pioneered a powerful inclusion ministry called Bethlehem Buddies, designed to help children, students, and adults with special needs fully participate in the life of the church. In this conversation, they unpack how inclusive ministry became a defining part of Bethlehem’s culture and how any church—regardless of size—can take meaningful steps in this direction. Is your church unsure how to serve families affected by special needs? Do you feel overwhelmed by where to start or afraid of doing it wrong? Jason and Nan offer practical, hope-filled wisdom rooted in real-life experience. Revitalization with intentional mission. // Bethlehem Church is a revitalization story at every campus. When Jason arrived 14 years ago, the church had plateaued and was struggling to reflect its surrounding community. Rather than questioning the church’s heart, Jason focused on intentionality—helping the congregation shift from insider-focused habits to an outward-facing mission. Located near Athens, Georgia, Bethlehem serves a family-centric community, prompting leaders to double down on reaching families and the next generation. That commitment laid the groundwork for inclusion ministry, even before the church realized it. Seeing an unreached community. // Nan’s background in special education played a critical role in shaping Bethlehem Buddies. Long before it became a formal ministry, Jason and Nan were deeply immersed in the lives of families affected by disability. When they arrived at Bethlehem, they recognized that many families in their community wanted to attend church but lacked the support to do so. Rather than being opposed to special needs ministry, churches often feel overwhelmed by it. Bethlehem chose to take a different approach—starting small, stepping in with humility, and learning along the way. Inclusion, not separation. // Nan defines inclusion as inviting people with disabilities into the same environments as everyone else—preschool, kids ministry, student ministry, and adult worship—rather than isolating them into separate spaces. Inclusion honors the individual and recognizes that people with disabilities don’t all look the same or need the same support. A five-year-old with autism and a 30-year-old man with Down syndrome should be welcomed into age-appropriate environments, with individualized support when needed. The goal isn’t just inclusion, but belonging—creating space for people to contribute and use their gifts within the body of Christ. The buddy model at scale. // Bethlehem Buddies pairs each individual with a trained volunteer—called a “buddy”—whose role is simple but powerful: be their best friend for 90 minutes. Buddies focus on connection over compliance, valuing relationship more than control. While some individuals prefer quieter environments, most are included directly into existing ministries with one-on-one support. Parents can attend worship knowing their child or adult family member is safe, known, and loved. Over time, this model has grown from serving one child to serving more than 300 families every weekend. Unexpected volunteer impact. // One of the biggest surprises has been how Bethlehem Buddies shapes volunteer culture. The ministry attracts people who might never serve in traditional kids or student roles—men, teenagers, business leaders—and cultivates empathy, humility, and ownership. Jason notes that the ministry has become one of the strongest volunteer-recruiting pipelines in the church, strengthening the overall mission and heart of Bethlehem. From program to culture. // Early on, Nan personally recruited volunteers by tapping shoulders and inviting people she saw potential in. Over time, inclusion became embedded in the church’s DNA. Today, the culture itself recruits. Serving families affected by special needs has reshaped Bethlehem’s understanding of the gospel—reinforcing the truth that the kingdom of God is for everyone, especially “the least of these.” Jason emphasizes that while inclusion started as the right thing to do, it has become one of the most spiritually formative aspects of the church. Simple steps for churches. // For churches wondering where to begin, Nan encourages leaders to start with one service, one plan, and one conversation. Decide how you would respond if a family arrived this Sunday. Identify a few volunteers who could serve as buddies. Use a detailed family intake form to prepare volunteers and build trust with parents. Jason urges pastors to see opportunity rather than obstacles—and to remember that you don’t need to be an expert to start, just willing to learn. To learn more about Bethlehem Church and the Bethlehem Buddies Network, visit bethlehemchurch.us. Churches interested in starting or strengthening inclusion ministry can email Nan directly and take take a look at Bethlehem’s Buddies Volunteer Handbook. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends. Welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. I really want you to lean in today. This is one of those issues that we see in churches all the time that I really hope tons churches that are leaning in or listening in today will lean in on this issue, particularly if you’re a growing church. This might be one of those just up over the horizon issues that it that you can get ahead on and work ahead on now and and actually create more space for more people in your community. Rich Birch — Really excited to have Jason and Nan Britt with us. They’re from Bethlehem Church. It’s repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country with three locations, if I’m counting correctly, in Georgia. Jason is the lead pastor and Nan has championed a program called Bethlehem Buddies. And we’re really looking forward to pulling this apart. They offer that all campuses and they provide inclusive support to help preschooler, child, teenager, and adults with special needs transition smoothly into one of the church’s worship environments. So Jason, Nan, welcome to the show. So glad that you are here.Nan Britt — Thank you. Jason Britt — And we’re thankful, thankful for for you having us.Rich Birch — Yeah, Jason, why don’t you tell us, kind of give us the picture of Bethlehem Church, kind of tell us a little bit about the church, kind of set the picture. If we were to arrive… Jason Britt — Yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — …on a typical weekend, what would we experience?Jason Britt — Yeah. It’s three campuses, hopefully four soon. They’re all revitalization story. We just actually relocated our broadcast campus about a mile down the road. We’re a year in now… Rich Birch — Nice. Jason Britt — …December when you’re broadcasting this. And so we opened, new and it’s a revitalization story, multiple services, and it’s just a church that had history. And all of our campuses, Rich, are revitalization stories, too.Jason Britt — And it was a church with history that just had the courage, if you will, to envision a new future or be open to envisioning a new future. And we’ve been here for 14 years. It was my first senior pastorate, and it’s been a phenomenal year. And the church has just embraced the mission of leading people to discover new life in Christ in all areas of our ministry.Rich Birch — Why don’t we stick with you, Jason, and double click on revitalization. Jason Britt — Yeah. Rich Birch — Kind of pull apart that picture a little bit, help people, because I know there’s people that are listening in today that are on the other side of revitalization. And they’re thinking, hey, you know, what were some of, you know, you first stepped into that journey. What were some early questions that you were asking that really about that kind of led you to the place of like, hey, this is what I think the church could become. Where what started that journey for you?Jason Britt — Yeah, I think even in the process of, you know how it goes in different denominations or tribes have different ways of calling a pastor. And so for me, as I talked with the group that was selecting a pastor, the church had been plateaued for a number of years, plateaued, declining, kind of fell on that. And ultimately, my question for them is, what’s your limiting, have you guys considered your limiting factor? You know, and I think our church, although the heart was there, it did not reflect the community as a whole. And so by that, I mean the heart for mission was there, but not the intentionality of mission, if you will.Jason Britt — And so we really kind of began a two to three year journey of what would it look like for our church to reflect our community. And our community, Rich, we’re outside we’re kind of the bedroom community of Athens Georgia. Rich Birch — Okay. Jason Britt — All of our campuses surround the college town of Athens and it’s very family-centric, very kid-centric. I mean it’s not a high single adult population out here, if you will. This is where families live. And so we really needed to double down and become incredibly serious about the next generation and reaching families.Jason Britt — And I think it was just the reality of getting intentional with what our mission and heart was. The church wasn’t, I think I heard years ago, maybe on your podcast or somebody else, a pastor say, when you take over a church, one of two things are happening. They either believe they won the Super Bowl or they believe they’re losing every game.Jason Britt — Neither he goes, neither—I think it was Jud Wilhite said, I’m not sure… Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, yeah. Jason Britt — …He goes, neither are true. Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. Jason Britt — But you have to understand their psyche… Rich Birch — Right. Jason Britt — …and the way they see their ministry. So for me, the gift of Bethlehem, Rich, was they were, they were, they were ready to win. I didn’t have to convince them they had to change a ton. I just had to, in many ways, give permission to see things differently. That if you will, the local church tends to be drift toward insider focused…Rich Birch — Yep, that’s true. Yeah.Jason Britt — …and the gospel is very outsider focused. And so for us, it was a lot of, if you will, deconstructing some things before we reconstructed, a lot of examining the fruit of what we were doing, not the intent. You know, that was a lot of the earliest, probably where lot people that you’re listening, your listeners are in revitalization. A lot of it’s not what we, early on, is not what we need to do that we’re not doing is what we need to stop doing that we’re doing.Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.Jason Britt — Right. And that’s the hard part, the deconstruction.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s true.Jason Britt — That was my first two or three years. It’s when I had a full head of hair and no gray, you know what i’m saying, bro? And so it was good though, man.Rich Birch — Yes, for sure.Jason Britt — And so that was our early days of really the heart didn’t need a lot of work. The direction and the intentionality to mission, if you will, strategy and vision. So.Rich Birch — Well, I think there’s a lot of churches that are listening in that I think can relate with that idea of like, hey, the heart of our church is is right, but we’re not really taking intentional steps. And at some point as a leadership team, you realized that there were families that wanted to participate fully, but needed something different in order to do that. That’s ultimately what led us to what we’re talking about today. Rich Birch — What opened your eyes to that gap? What kind of got the ball rolling for you as a leadership team, for you specifically or for our leadership team as you were thinking about this issue?Nan Britt — Yeah, so, um you know, we’ve always been in ministry, Jason in ministry, but really my calling has been early on in special education. You know, that was my training and experience.Rich Birch — Okay.Nan Britt — And ah so professionally, you know, that was my job as a teacher. And so really for the first 10 years of our marriage, Jason walked alongside that road with me. And so the students that I taught really had a lot of needs. And so we really got to know those families. We were really immersed in the special needs community of families.Nan Britt — And so as we came to Bethlehem, we knew, we just knew this was such a great need. This was really an unreached group of people in our community. And so we were excited at the opportunity to be able to serve these families. You know, with him taking that role as as lead pastor, we wanted to make that a priority with our church.Nan Britt — And so that was that was an easy way for me to get involved as a volunteer. So I served as a volunteer for several years because that was just my experience and training and gifting and, you know, what I felt called to to do to to take what I had learned and really use that, you know, in the church.Jason Britt — Yeah, I think we’ve been to some great, we served at two great churches before we came here, awesome churches. If I said them, many of your listeners would know they were awesome and we have nothing, but I remember us being there. A lot of times it was, as we as we were serving there, it was not a, nobody’s against special needs ministry. It just seems overwhelming. Rich Birch — That’s true. Yeah.Jason Britt — Right. And that’s what you find is nobody’s against doing it. It’s just kind of what it seems overwhelming, if you will, or where do we even start? And so I think for us, when we came, our kids were young. And as Nan began to It just began as with one person. Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — And really beginning inclusion there. It was more of instead of being overwhelmed by it, almost, if you will… Nan Britt — Yeah. Jason Britt — …taking a step in and giving the example of what of what that looks like.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. And let’s let’s start, we’re going to get into some tactics in a second, but Jason, I want you to think about from like at a 30,000 foot point of view. My impression as an outsider, looking at this, you know, what you guys are doing, it’s pretty robust. You’ve created a pathway for children, students, adults with special needs to be fully included. And we’ll talk about what that means in a minute. But it to me, i think this could struggle if it’s just a tactic. It seems like what you’ve done has been able to talk about it really at kind of a cultural, this who we’re trying to be. So talk to us how we do that as senior leaders. How do we move this from beyond just like this is another thing we do to like, oh, this is a part of who we are. This is how we see ourselves.Jason Britt — Yeah, and and Nan could probably fill a little bit of the gaps here, but I think for me, I would say two things to senior leaders or senior teams if you’re talking about that. I think the cultural piece is when it becomes a kingdom of God, everybody’s invited at the table. Nan Britt — Yes. Jason Britt — The least of these, marginalized, which we know the gospel – Jesus is more drawn to empty hearts and empty lives than he is full rooms, if you will, you know? And so then in our society, the poor, the marginalized or the least of these is not only poor and impoverished, but oftentimes it’s families who have lived and wrestled with and, walk through this. And so creating space for everybody, I would say was a very, for us, Jesus-centric type thing. Nan Britt — Yes. Jason Britt — It was like this, if we are for the least of these, if we are for all people, that was one of our kind of core values as Bethlehem Church is a church for all people, right? Gospel, for God so loved the world. That’s a pretty broad path right there, the world.Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Jason Britt — So then let’s be intentional there. And, and the thing that I would tell you now, and as Nan gets into the tactics, we didn’t do this to start. This wasn’t the reason. The reason was it was the right thing and we could do this, but, Rich, man, I am telling you, when you begin to serve these families and and you see the joy and the blessing and what it does to the heart of the church, you cannot exchange.Rich Birch — That’s true.Jason Britt — Serving these families, when I talk to other pastor buddies that are stepping into this or some good friends that are in the Buddies Network who would do this, I’m like, man, what it does for the whole of your church when it comes to the heart of Christ, you know, and we’ve seen it go from one kid to three serving 300 families a weekend now. And so it’s been a crazy thing. But what it does for the overall mission and heart of the church and the volunteers and the church seeing this is a powerful thing.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would agree. You know, we talked a little bit beforehand about yeah when I esrved at Liquid Church for years, and this has been a part of our story there. It’s like of my proudest things that we had been a part of. And but but I want to take a step back. And Nan, can you help us understand when you say the word inclusion, what do you mean by that as opposed to separation?Rich Birch — So I’ll paint a bit of a picture for you. Maybe I’m a church of, I don’t know, 5-, 600 people. And sure, there are some kids that we can see. There are kids with special needs. And and I’m like, don’t don’t we just want to create a place where we can like put those kids away so they don’t bother us? Again, I’m I’m using hyperbole. Nan Britt — Right. Rich Birch — Obviously, I’m playing a bit of the devil’s advocate. I don’t actually believe that. Nan Britt — Right. Rich Birch — But what what do you mean by inclusion, not separation? What does that look like?Nan Britt — Yes. Well, inclusion simply means that you are, in the church setting, looking at preschool ministry, kids ministry, students, adult ministries, and really just looking for opportunity to include everyone into those environments. You know, and we know that some people, individuals with disabilities, just may need some individualized love, care, and support. But I think inclusion also speaks more importantly to honoring people and seeing people as individuals. Rich Birch — So true.Nan Britt — And so, for example, we know that a 30-year-old man with Down syndrome looks very different than a five-year-old with autism. And so inclusion is honoring and seeing a person for who they are. And so we want to invite a 30 year old man with Down syndrome into the same opportunities that we’re inviting other 30 year old men in in the church. Nan Britt — And so, so that just gives an example and it actually simplifies things a lot. You know, you you’re really whatever is being offered, you know, at your church, for each age group, you’re you’re simply just opening up that opportunity for our kids and adults with disabilities and special needs to be a part of that.Nan Britt — And then, like we said, we just know sometimes that may mean they need some individualized support in order to be a part of those ah great ministries happening. But it I think inclusion really speaks to honoring that individual and seeing them, what they can contribute to the body of Christ. Nan Britt — And so we know everyone wants to be included, but belonging is really the goal. You know, people, we we know the difference, you know, as people when we’re included in a place, but when we’re invited to to to contribute back… Rich Birch — So good. Nan Britt — …and to use our gifts and strengths, you know, that’s when you really feel a sense of belonging. And so I think that’s the power of inclusion versus just, hey, let’s just provide a separate space and because this is what we’re supposed to do.Rich Birch — Right. Right. So can you get tactical on that? What does that actually look like for, because I, you know, I, I understand doing this at a one or two people, but at scale, 3-, 400, 500 every weekend over a year, like that’s, how do you actually do that? We’ll stick with you, Nan. If I’myeah, what what does that look like? How do how do we provide that care? How do we and how do we learn how we can best support people and then communicate with them and all that? What does it kind of… Nan Britt — Yes. Rich Birch — I know there’s a lot there, I understand… Nan Britt — Yes.Rich Birch — …but but give us kind of an overview. We start there.Nan Britt — eah, that’s a great question. I think it’s really important to first define your goal of like… Rich Birch — Right. Nan Britt — …okay, what is our goal and why are we we providing disability ministry, special needs ministry? And what I believe is the goal of it is that so a family can attend worship, can attend a worship service together on a Sunday morning.Rich Birch — Great.Nan Britt — That is the goal. You know, first, over other nights of programming happening at your church, we believe that we want our families to hear the gospel message, the hope of Jesus, to experience worship, prayer, sit under preaching. And so that’s why we we want to focus on inviting them and providing support around a worship service. We know most likely for parents to be able to attend the service, then that means their child or adult is going to need some individualized support and care.Nan Britt — And so that’s that’s where the Buddies team, the Buddies ministry comes in. And so ah you’re going to need some some volunteers. And so really, i think that simplifies it a lot because I think churches get overwhelmed to think, man, do we need to provide something every time the doors of our church are open? And I would say a great place to start and focus on is we want families to be invited to your worship service. Nan Britt — And then equally, ah we want our individuals to experience the love of Christ, grow in their faith, be be in community um with others. And so I think that’s the place to start is while mom and dad get to attend a service and they’re siblings, then we provide a volunteer to pair up with kids and adults with disabilities.Nan Britt — And then from there, you already have these great ministries happening in your church, kids ministries, student ministries, sometimes on a Sunday morning. And then you’re able to just join in the great ministry happening with that buddy support with a child.Nan Britt — And then I do think that if you have the space at your church, you can also offer a classroom space for kids and adults who prefer a quieter setting or do better in a small group setting. Then you can offer another space that that also has the same great ministry happening. So I really think those volunteers drive the ministry… Jason Britt — Yeah. Nan Britt — …and then just get to participate in with with all the great things happening on a Sunday morning at your church.Rich Birch — I love that. Jason, can you, let’s talk about it from the side, because Nan was talking there about the volunteer side of the equation. Let’s talk about it from that end.Rich Birch — What have you seen, kind of what impact has adding buddies and adding a really robust inclusion culture to your church?Jason Britt — Yeah.Rich Birch — How has that kind of impacted the volunteers who are and engaged in this ministry?Jason Britt — Yeah, I think a couple things and our kids will be examples, but they’re friends as well. What you see is there, and and we’ve seen this with male leadership, is there are people that would probably not raise their hand and say, hey, I want to be in preschool or kids ministry. But the chance to pair up and walk with a teenager with special needs, to be included, to be a one-on-one individualized and walk into our kid’s town or our midtown, which is our younger environments, it’s very empowering. And, I mean, it just opens opportunities for connection. And that’s one thing that we’ve seen, that we see people who may not want more than handing out a, but if you will, just on the Sunday service, if you were the Sunday morning weekend environment, serving opportunities, obviously there’s more in the church, but those coffee, parking lot, greeter, than kids ministry. A lot of your churches that you minister to look similar ours, you know what I mean? Jason Britt — And so what we found was that stream of empowering and inviting, and candidly our buddies ministry, is stronger in the recruiting aspect than our kids or student ministry because it’s so unique and it calls things out of people that maybe the other don’t, if you will. We’ve seen that. And so I would say that that was one of the benefits that we didn’t know early on. Nan maybe did just because of her background in special needs. But as we’ve seen it, I mean, you know, students, it’s a powerful thing when you’re watching a 16-year-old, 17-year-old high schooler, when you’re watching them walk with a five-year-old with autism or Down syndrome into a children’s ministry class. That’s just a pretty powerful thing. The humility, the ownership, there’s just… Nan Britt — Empathy. Jason Britt — …empathy. That rich, the discipleship piece of that’s incredibly strong. You know… Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Jason Britt — …that just in this simple, it’s not filling a hole, it’s empowering. And so that’s one of the things we’ve seen. I mean, I know you’ve been around, if you were Liquid, even the Night to Shine, obviously the the Tim Tebow thing. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. Jason Britt — Even that, that’s probably the big mass on a mass scale we do where the church is incredibly involved. But then the opportunities it’s opened up for us on the outside of the church to partner with other nonprofits and bring nonprofits that for serve families with special needs, but we get to bring a gospel presence to that. Rich Birch — Love it.Jason Britt — And that’s because of what we’re doing internally. So I’ve seen both of those things that the mission fulfilled in ways that it’s not just serving those families with special needs, but taking the church to a place we’ve never been.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And, you know, to underline something you said there that we’ve seen through multiple conversations that I think when we cast a big picture and a big responsibility to volunteers, they will step up to that. In fact, they’ll actually lean in. They’ll be like,I’m this is great. This requires a lot of me.Jason Britt — Yes.Rich Birch — I would love to lean in.Jason Britt — Yes.Rich Birch — So Nan, what have you learned about, let’s keep keep on this whole topic here, volunteers. What have you learned about recruiting, finding these volunteers, training them so they feel prepared, confident, like, you know, this is your professionally, you said this… Nan Britt — Right. Rich Birch — …your this is your professional background, but, you know, you take your average 16-year-old, they’re not professionally equipped for this. And so how do you help them get to a place where they can be a buddy?Nan Britt — Right.Rich Birch — Talk us through what that looks like.Nan Britt — Yes. It’s, it’s really, it’s so exciting. That’s something that I’ve always been passionate about to connect people to purpose. And so, and then like you said, to take what I have learned and, and really, put it into terms and, and easy ways, easy strategies for, everyday volunteers to feel equipped.Nan Britt — And, and, and so I think that we, a lot of our training materials have come from that that we love to share with churches because we that’s something that we prioritize is we we have many volunteers that serve that do have a background in special education a lot like myself with experience, and I think they’re needed for sure in this ministry. But we have the majority of our volunteers are teenagers and adults who are businessmen. They own their own construction company. Women who you know are stay-at-home moms. Teenagers who, yeah, who would say, hey, I have a heart for this. I’m available. And we love that. We think that that is absolutely the right person to serve. And so we’ve just found some easy ways. Nan Britt — We are highly prepared on our end as a staff. to ah provide the best experience possible for the volunteer and the child on a Sunday morning. And so we do that with, we have a great family form that we have all of our families fill out. We’ve done that for 11 years. It’s a really detailed form. And so we feel like that gives us so much great information about the child or adult that we’re working with, that the parent has given us. Their interests, their likes, things that their dislikes, what to do to to help them stay calm and engaged. We utilize that every week. We get that in the hands of the volunteers so they feel equipped to to know the child they’re paired up with. Jason Britt — Yeah. Nan Britt — And then we we have great just engaging activities and and Bible stories and worship that that just provide the best experience possible for for an hour and a half on a Sunday morning while they’re with us. We want our volunteers to feel supported, to just enjoy being with their child or adult. You know, we say your role is to be their best friend on a Sunday, to hang out. We really prioritize connection over compliance. You know, we’re highly relational. It’s very individualized. And so we, I think that takes away a lot of the nervousness for our volunteers. Jason Britt — Yeah.Nan Britt — And we really, do have great experiences because church is different. Church is different and should be different than school, than therapy, than camp.Rich Birch — Right.Nan Britt — And so you really can have such a a great experience, you know, for an hour and a half, you know, during a service and people feel equipped. We encourage them. We support them. And, and as you know, Rich, people step in to, to volunteer and, but they always come back to us and say, they are so much more of a blessing to me.Jason Britt — Yeah, yeah. Nan Britt — You know, they, they are really ministering to me because our kids and adults, you know, just have such a, a peaceful presence and unhurried spirit, gracious. They’ll pray for you. And so they turn around and bless our volunteers and minister to them. And in so many greater ways than we, than we ever really do for them. Jason Britt — It’s good.Rich Birch — Yeah, love that. And you use the word buddy, and I’d love to double click on that. You you talked about this, Nan, this idea of be their best friend that, you know, for that 90 minutes every week. It’s not about compliance. Talk us about talk to us about that a little bit more, kind of unpack that a little bit. What does that look like? Because that’s a nuance that I think people might, who have not been around this kind of ministry might not understand that. So unpack that a little bit more. What’s that look like?Nan Britt — Yes. So that’s, that’s what we choose to call our volunteers, buddies, buddy volunteers. And we we think it’s, it fits whether you’re with a child or with your, whether you’re with an adult with a disability. And I think that, the the beauty and the success of the ministry is it’s just individualized, you know, undivided attention for a whole, like you said, 90 minutes where we want our kids and adults to feel seen and heard and valued.Nan Britt — And so if you’re a buddy volunteer, you you have that permission to just celebrate and make that morning just all about their child and get on their level, play with them. You know, we we give a lot of direction around ways to interact with people that have differences. You know, if they’re in a wheelchair, if they don’t verbally communicate, hey, here’s some creative ways of of how you can interact with your buddy. And just to that, you know, to to just place such a high value on that child or adult. And yeah, and there there’s so much celebration around it and so much joy. I think people who walk by buddies or around our ministry, that’s the culture of it’s just so much joy and celebration.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great.Nan Britt — Even when they’re you’re in the presence of so many complex needs, you know, this is a group of people who have a lot of hardships and and very complex needs on paper, but yet you can still just have such a great experience as a buddy volunteer. And like I said, I think that the reason for it is it’s so individualized and it’s ah based around their interest, what they like, and really valuing them and then sharing the love of Jesus. Jason Britt — Yeah.Nan Britt — You know, that unconditional love. That is what we are we strive to share, you know, as a buddy volunteer to our kids and adults. Jason Britt — And I think, we’re Rich, I would add, I think in your churches that are listening, now, then we’re 10 years in, the culture recruits. Nan Britt — True.Jason Britt — Early on, early on, I would say Nan, and she doesn’t give herself enough credit for this, she shoulder tapped a lot of people and would say, hey, you know this is when the church was very smaller and it was. But in the early days, it was a lot of, just like there’s individual care, I would just say the recruiting was individualized… Nan Britt — Yes. Jason Britt — …by Nan, tapping shoulders, saying, hey, I see this in you, or hey, I think you could help me. I mean, I think about… You know, our friends, Richard, Andy, some of these guys who were men’s men that are friends of mine that and and she would just be very specific. Would you and and all of them were like, absolutely. Nan Britt — Yeah.Jason Britt — Before they even knew what they were getting into.Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — I just think early on, I would tell you now our culture does a lot of the recruiting.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jason Britt — But early on it was individualized. I see this in you, that shoulder tapping. Nan Britt — Yep, that’s true. Jason Britt — It was never necessarily my vision for it, recruiting people. It was more of the individualized. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jason Britt — And then now it’s part of our culture, but I would say it didn’t start. It just became a part of our culture. Nan Britt — Yeah. Jason Britt — Does that make sense?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s 100%. 100%. That’s a great thing to underline, even just in general… Jason Britt — Yes. Rich Birch — …but specifically in this this ministry, that those early people that we get involved really do kind of cast vision for the future of like, oh, we’re looking for more of these kind of, like you said, whoever those guys are, your men’s men guys.Jason Britt — Yeah.Rich Birch — It’s like, well, that then creates a door for like other guys like that to say, hey, I want to be a part of that.Nan Britt — Absolutely.Rich Birch — And yeah, that’s good.Nan Britt — Yes.Rich Birch — I was also don’t underestimate the the power of the person asking. I know you highlighted this celebrating your wife, but that’s very true. Like that you want to, the person you put in in charge of this wants to be the kind of person that is trusted and is loved and has got some wisdom. So Jason, sticking with you, I’m sure you get calls from leads, from other lead pastors or executive pastors that might have some like common misunderstandings or fears that about starting a special needs ministry. What are some of those fears that they have and what do you say to them to try to say, no, no, you should do this. What are what are the things that come up in a conversation like that?Jason Britt — It’s great question. I think a lot of times it’s not, it’s, if you don’t have a background or awareness or someone in your family or close to you that has special needs or disabilities, there is a lot of what if, what if, what if.Rich Birch — Right.Jaon Britt — And so like, what if the needs extreme, you know, they have feeding tube or they kind of create the worst case scenario or the hardest situation to go, I don’t know if we could ever. Rich Birch — Right. Jason Britt — And what you realize is the vast majority, the, the, the, the needs not that extreme. So it’s kind of almost right size and go in. No, no, no, no. I think you’re, you’re out thinking, you know, in church, you’ve been around church, Rich, you know, we have a way of out-thinking ourselves somehow of going, well, what if…Rich Birch — Sure. Sure.Jason Britt — Hey, Hey, Hey, there’s a really good chance, you know?Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — And so I think that’d be one of going, no, I think, but a lot of times it’s not from against, it’s just a lack of awareness. Rich Birch — Right. Jason Britt — You know, it’s not, we can’t do this because. I think liability, something that comes up, I mean, candidly, Rich, you know, in this day and age of liability and stuff like that. And I think again, the reality is, we are 10 years in, 300 families. It’s just not something we’ve ever dealt with. Nan Britt — Yeah. Jason Britt — You know, got think these families love these kids more than we could ever love these kids.Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — And so we’re going to be fully equipped and they’re, they’re not, if there’s great needs that, that are, that, they’re probably not going to check them in. They’ll sit with them in the service. You know what I mean? Something like that.Rich Birch — Yep, sure.Jason Britt — I think sometimes that would be one. And then… Nan Britt — Well, yeah, and I would just say, I think that’s when it’s important to have have humility and invite in someone that, like myself that, and I only say myself because like a teacher. Someone who has experience and training professionally in this field so that they’re able to to answer those questions, and to really right size and give a realistic. You know, and I’ve been in some of those conversations before to say, you know, in 11 years, that’s not something that we’ve ever dealt with the church… Jason Britt — Right. Yeah. Nan Britt — …but, but, Hey, here’s something else that you need to think about.Jason Britt — Yeah.Nan Britt — And so I think it’s, it’s really important. I have a lot of respect for leaders who show humility in saying, Hey, I, I even admit I have some ignorance about this conversation… Rich Birch — Yeah. Right. Nan Britt — …and I’d like to invite in so ah someone, an expert in this area to help us move forward in this conversation. Yeah.Jason Britt — Yeah, that’s been the, I think that’s the, yeah, that’s what we have talked to. Again, it’s almost permission, that Nan’s right, humility and just going, okay, we don’t know what we don’t know, let’s just ask some questions. Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — But the other thing I would say is, like, we don’t have, um if you will, a room. We don’t have space. We don’t, we’re we’re for it. And I think we go back to our early days, neither did we. You know It was all inclusion-based and all still is before we had a safety room, if you will, or before we had, what do you call it?Nan Britt — We don’t call it a safety room. It’s just a buddy space. Jason Britt — Buddy Space. Like like you know if there’s a kid that’s having an issue or or you know something. We didn’t we have a little more now than we did, but back in the day, it was more inclusion and just start where where you’re at. Nan Britt — Yeah. Jason Britt — You can do something.Nan Britt — That’s right.Rich Birch — Yeah. I think that’s a good word, Jason, that I think we get way too far ahead of us. And we’re like, we and we picture 300 families and like, oh my goodness, what’s going to happen? It’s like, well, how about but we start with the two kids that are right in front of us?Nan Britt — That’s right. Jason Britt — That’s it.Rich Birch — And what can we do to support those families? Nan, you said this, I’d love to invite you in on these conversations. I’m sure there’s churches that are listening in there like I would love Nan’s help. Talk to me about the buddies network. This is a way—I love this—you guys have stepped out to try to help more churches. Talk us through what that is. How do you help churches? How can you engage with them that sort of thing.Nan Britt — Yes. I mean, you’re exactly right. That’s that’s where the idea came from, is that in our area, you know, around metro Atlanta, around Athens, we are in weekly conversations with churches of of how to start a ministry or just begin, like you’re saying, what are some easy steps, tangible ways to serve families, bring awareness to it. And so we just decided, you know, out stewarding, being a good steward of the the great work God has done at Bethlehem, the resources he’s provided for us that we love. Nan Britt — Jason and I, we, we, our big kingdom church people. We love partnering with churches. We love knowing other pastors. And, and so that’s been exciting for me just to work with other churches and share with them. I think we’ve learned so much at Bethlehem, like Jason said, from being very small with no budget, no space, being very conservative in, in what we’ve done to now having a huge ministry, a large ministry, having great space. Jason Britt — Right.Nan Britt — I think we just have learned so many ways to be able to equip churches. And and that’s really the heart behind it. And so we’ve done this last year, really, I have I’m leading that and and kind of initiating that. We just have put in quarterly quarterly lunches if you are nearby and close to us to join us for that. Quick things to your inbox that give ideas. We share our resources. We’re where we don’t want you to recreate something, spend time on that.Bethlehem Church — Because like you said, a lot of that a lot of times it’s kids’ ministries, people who already wear a lot of hats at their churches. I mean, they are overwhelmed. They are leading kids’ ministry. We have some a part of our network that are family pastors, and then they have also been given this task of, hey, figure out special needs ministry as well.Jason Britt — Yeah. Nan Britt — Or volunteers. They’re not paid. So it’s our desire just to get in there and help equip. Jason Britt — Yeah. Nan Britt — And to make it fit the structure of your church. You know, every church is unique. And so ah we just want to make this tangible and easy. And so, yeah. And so we we walk alongside churches really at their own pace, you know, of what they say, hey, we need help with this. Jason Britt — Yep.Nan Britt — And in 2026, we hope to keep expanding resources and more so online that really allow churches outside of Georgia, you know, to access more resources.Rich Birch — Yeah, that which you’ve provided and we’ll link to this, the Buddies Volunteer Handbook. I thought this was great, kind of a I know I love this kind of thing. I’m always like diving deep on, wow, it’s so cool to see what people do. I love this. Talk to us a little bit about this resource. How does it fit in your… Nan Britt — Yes. Rich Birch — …like in your process with Buddies and all that?Nan Britt — Yes. For sure, you know, the first few years, like we’re saying of our ministry, that our our procedures and systems looked more like just a Word document. Rich Birch — Right.Nan Britt — You know, something that I would share onboarding volunteers of, hey, this is your role as a buddy. You know, this is what it means to serve at our ministry. This is these are the expectations. This is… And then in time, you know, we created that. It turned into a handbook, you know, a nicely you know printed handbook that that matched really what our kids ministry handbook and our student ministry handbook looked like. And so it is a great resource that that’s how we onboard volunteers and kind of their their first invitation into the ministry of we go through that handbook with them. We prioritize, hey, this is what we say is your role and what a win is in our ministry. So it goes through a lot of our our systems put around the ministry, the procedures. And what I like to share with churches is kind of what Jason was saying. Really, special needs ministry fits neatly into that that umbrella of all the systems and procedures and policies that a church already has in place for kids ministry… Rich Birch — Yeah. Nan Britt — …and student ministry, special needs ministry fits within that. And that is the way we function at our church. And so there, back when you said there really is not additional liability or additional policies for special needs ministry. So, that’s contained in our handbook. And yeah, it’s a great resource to share with our volunteers and drives the the goals and expectations of the ministry. Jason Britt — Yeah . Rich Birch — That’s so good. Nan Britt — And that’s what we share a lot with we share our handbook with churches and then our family form. Most churches are saying, hey, you mentioned the form that you give to parents.Rich Birch — Yeah. Help us understand that. Yeah. Yes.Nan Britt — Hey, can you share that with us? And we say, absolutely. Just just take our logo off of it. You put your church logo on there. Rich Birch — Yes. Nan Britt — And you just just just start using that because that’s that’s another great resource we share.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. So as we’re coming down to land, kind of a same similar question to both you. I’ll start with you, Nan. Let’s picture that you’re a leader within a church who’s got a passion for this area and is like thinking, hey, we we need to take some steps in the next, maybe the next six months, next three months to kind of move this from, hey, we’re helping a couple kids to we want to create a bit more structure there. What would you say to them to like, Hey, here are some first steps that you should be taking to try to expand this beyond something that’s informal to like, we’re trying to make this a little bit more part of what we do, not just something we’re kind of dealing with. It’s like, we’re going to actively add this.Nan Britt — Right. Yeah, I think that’s a great question. I think something immediately that churches can do is to have a conversation, you know, around kids ministry, around the team on Sundays, and essentially just to have a plan in place of, okay, what would we do if a family visited our church? And just by having a conversation and being prepared, really just allows you to welcome that family without the stress and panic on your face. Rich Birch — Sure. Right. Nan Britt — You know, of that we know it’s unintentional, but we never want a family to feel like an inconvenience or a burden or unwelcomed at our church. But simply by having a plan of okay, what would we do if a family came? And I think that that could easily be we’re going to get them checked in and they’re going to go into our kids’ ministry environments. But maybe we can have two or three extra volunteers on call that we would utilize or we might pull from our existing kids ministry classes to be a buddy for that morning for that child in the second grade class. That’s that’s pretty easy to do. But if you have already talked through that, then when a family comes, it doesn’t send you in a into panic mode.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Nan Britt — And and then, like because as we said, the parents are still there. They’re in service. You can always call them or text them with a question or a need that you might have. And then from there, I think it gives you time to put some systems in place. What that might be like is you you prioritize a Sunday morning service. If you if you offer multiple services, I always tell churches, hey, you know, pick, choose a service and build your volunteer team around one service. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Nan Britt — And then that is a service you can communicate to the community of, hey, we’re offering our buddies team at the nine o’clock service on Sunday morning. We’d love to invite you to attend at this time. That’s pretty manageable for churches rather than feeling overwhelmed of, wow, do we need to offer her volunteers at every service that we have on a Sunday? So just starting small. Jason Britt — Yep, yep. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Nan Britt — And then, like I said, an easy step is, is, getting access to a family form. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Nan Britt — And like I said, we can easily share that with you because you collect such great information that really helps you feel prepared for the hour and a half that the family’s with you on a Sunday morning.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s great. So similar question, Jason, let’s say you’re, imagine you’re a lead pastor and, you know, somebody on their team comes to you and says, Hey, we, we had this conversation as a huddle, like, Hey, what could we do? And we realized we’ve got to add some more emphasis on this. We, you know, if, if we had a family come today, oh, I’m not sure, you know, we might be able to serve one kid or two kids if they came or one or two people if they came, but we’re not, I’m not sure if we had any more than that, that we, and we’d like to add some more volunteer time. We’re not looking for money, just kind of some more emphasis. What would you say to a lead pastor who had someone come to them? How would you kind of coach them to respond to that, to a, to a leader that came with them with that kind of request?Jason Britt — Yeah, I would say just because I know how does a senior pastor would, hey, we got this, we got this. It seems like there’s always about five things pressing and and and it’s like another thing, you know. I would say see the opportunity.Rich Birch — Love it.Jason Britt — That’s what I would just go, man, the opportunity and, you know, see the opportunity for gospel presence. I mean, I think some of my favorite stories, and we don’t have time to get to them, have been families that came or brought their special needs adult or student, or and they’ve been baptized because of that, you know. So the opportunity of it, it is a communit… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Jason Britt — …of people that in the local church we are for, but oftentimes unintentionally we haven’t been prepared for or, and again, it’s legitimate and get it. I think it’s the, also there’s just great resources. Like I just got, we just came off, I mean, you know, this stuff, Rich, there’s just like there’s people who help out. We just came off of a two-year generosity initiative. And I need help thinking strategically. Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — I don’t need, you know, and and they help that. Well, there’s people like Nan. Uh, there’s people that are out there that are there to help.Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — And I think there’s a lot more similarities in churches with people who can help… Nan Britt — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yes. Jason Britt — …than just like I needed in the general there. That’s the same thing I would tell a pastor. Don’t be overwhelmed. See the opportunity. Nan Britt — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.Nan Britt — I would add, I think that’s key that, you know, in the same way that, like you’re saying, in the world of production or other ministries, we are familiar with contracting with people who that’s their specialty. That’s their skill. That’s their experience. I think it’s the same way in this conversation with special needs ministry. I think that is the quickest way to… Jason Britt — Yep. Nan Britt — …move along the conversation is to maybe to consider contracting with a person that that has that is a professional in this. It it it will eliminate all of those what-if questions… Jason Britt — Yep. Nan Britt — …the fear around it, and someone who knows this this ministry and knows what to do. Jason Britt — Yep. Absolutely. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Nan Britt — You know who’s not surprised by the needs of people with disabilities and special needs. So I think that for churches that And like we said, it’s it’s similar to contracting with other needs around the church.Rich Birch — Right. Good.Nan Britt — So just as quickly as you can, get someone in the conversation that is an expert and kind of knows ah you know what how to care, how to care for these kids. Jason Britt — Yep, yep.Rich Birch — So good. Well, Nan, we’ll give you the last word. If people want to get in touch with with you, with the church to talk about the network or to just just even learn more, where do we want to send them online so they can access more information, you know, that sort of thing?Nan Britt — Yes. So ah they are welcome to email me, nan@bethlehemchurch.us. I would love that to just, like I said, eat weekly, that’s really my role on our staff now is is talking and training and and just working alongside churches. So I would love to connect. And then our website is BethlehemChurch.us, which they can find our Bethlehem Buddies page. Just see a lot of great resources there and then get in touch with our staff there as well. Jason Britt — Yep.Rich Birch — That’s great. Appreciate you guys being here today. Thank you so much. And thanks for what you’re doing. Appreciate being on the show today.Nan Britt — Thanks so much. Jason Britt — Thank you. 

Jeremy Baker, lead pastor who grew Elevate Life from 70 to over 2,000 weekly attendees, shares his journey planting in a spiritually resistant region. He talks about loving people well, crafting a street-to-seat guest experience, building an invite culture, marketing that worked, and guarding mission as momentum brings capacity challenges.

Shayla McCormick, an executive leader at rapidly growing Coastal Community Church in Florida, shares operational insight from leading a lean multisite staff. She discusses why churches keep hiring the same roles, the difference between relieving pressure and building capacity, volunteer multiplication, discipling leaders, and practical steps for smarter staffing in 2026.

Leading Into 2026: Executive Pastor Insights Momentum is real. So is the pressure. This free report draws from the largest dedicated survey of Executive Pastors ever, revealing what leaders are actually facing as they prepare for 2026. Why staff health is the #1 pressure point Where churches feel hopeful — and stretched thin What worked in 2025 and is worth repeating Clear decision filters for the year ahead Download the Full Report Free PDF • Built for Executive Pastors • Instant access Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re continuing our conversations with executive pastors from prevailing churches, unpacking what leaders like you shared in the National Executive Pastor Survey, so you can lead forward with clarity. Today we’re joined by Paul Alexander, Executive Pastor at Sun Valley Community Church and Senior Consultant with The Unstuck Group. With more than 25 years of ministry experience and nearly 15 years at Sun Valley, Paul brings a blend of practitioner insight and coaching wisdom. Sun Valley is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with six physical locations, a prison campus, and more expansion on the way. In this conversation, Paul helps unpack one of the most pressing themes from the National Executive Pastor Survey: staff health, culture, and organizational structure. Is your church clear on vision and strategy but still struggling to move forward? Do you sense tension or fatigue beneath the surface of your staff team? Paul offers candid, practical guidance on how leaders can cultivate both healthy and high-performing teams. Staff culture is often the real growth lid. // Many churches leave strategic planning sessions with remarkable clarity—clear vision, strong strategy, and actionable next steps—yet still fail to move forward. The reason is rarely theological or missional; it’s cultural. Team culture and staff structure often become the limiting factor. Just as personal growth stalls when internal issues go unresolved, churches stall when unhealthy patterns persist within leadership teams. Healthy and high-performing. // Many churches swing between two extremes: high performance with little concern for soul health, or relational warmth with minimal accountability to achieve the vision. Neither honors the full call of ministry. The healthiest teams refuse to live at either end of the pendulum. Instead, they pursue a culture where people are cared for deeply while being challenged to steward their gifts faithfully toward the mission. You can’t legislate health. // Health cannot be enforced through policies alone. Leaders set the tone through example, not rules. Staff watch how senior leaders manage time, rest, family, boundaries, and pressure. Late-night emails, skipped days off, and constant urgency quietly shape expectations—even if leaders say otherwise. Pastors need to lead with moral authority, not moral perfection: modeling rhythms that reflect trust in God rather than fear-driven overwork. Practical rhythms that protect people. // At Sun Valley, staff health is reinforced through intentional systems. Leaders are expected to take their days off and use vacation time; reports track whether staff actually do. Full-time staff receive sabbaticals every seven years, including non-director-level roles. Marriage retreats are offered as a gift to staff couples, recognizing that healthier marriages produce healthier ministry. These investments cost little financially but yield long-term fruit in sustainability and trust. Hire leaders, not doers. // A common staffing pitfall is hiring doers instead of leaders. While competence and skill earn someone a seat on the team at Sun Valley, long-term effectiveness depends on their ability to develop others. Staff are evaluated not on how much ministry they personally accomplish, but on how well they equip volunteers to lead. Volunteers are the heroes; staff exist to serve and multiply them. This mindset shifts ministry from bottlenecked to scalable. Structure must evolve with growth. // Churches often treat structure as fixed, but Paul insists that growing churches must restructure continually. Span of care, staffing ratios, and role clarity must be revisited regularly. He points to healthy benchmarks—such as staffing costs and staff-to-attendance ratios—as helpful indicators, not rigid rules. When leaders ignore structure, culture suffers; when structure is aligned, momentum increases. Fruit requires clarity and measurement. // Every staff role at Sun Valley includes measurable outcomes. Paul likens this to personal goals—no one expects a marriage to improve without intentional action. Clear metrics create focus, alignment, and accountability. Monthly one-on-ones blend personal care with performance review, ensuring leaders are supported holistically while still moving the mission forward. Encouragement for leaders sensing tension. // For executive pastors who feel something is “off” but can’t quite name it, Paul urges them not to ignore that instinct. Growth exposes weaknesses, and structure or culture may need adjustment. Whether the issue is misalignment, unclear expectations, or misplaced roles, addressing it early prevents deeper damage later. To learn more about Sun Valley Community Church, visit sunvalleycc.com. For resources on staff health, structure, and strategy, explore theunstuckgroup.com or email Paul directly. Watch the full episode below: Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don’t need more pressure—you need support. That’s why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn’t stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It’s like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really glad that you’ve decided to tune in. We’re doing a special series here this month where we’re looking at the results of a national survey that we did of executive pastors across the country. And we’ve pulled in some leading XPs from prevailing churches to help us think through these issues. Like we’re sitting across the table, if you talk about this problem, they want to help you with that. And today it’s our honor, our privilege really to have Paul Alexander with us. He is the executive pastor at Sun Valley Church for over 10 years. He has 25 years of experience. He’s a senior consultant with Unstuck, I think for 13 years. And he’s worked with all kinds of churches on health assessment, strategic planning. Sun Valley, if you don’t know this church, you’re living under a rock. fantastic church in Arizona, six physical locations, if I’m counting correctly, plus in prison, plus online. It’s repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Paul, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Paul Alexander — Yeah, Rich, glad to be with you. Hopefully the conversation can help your listeners, man.Rich Birch — I really appreciate that. Why why don’t you fill in the picture about Sun Valley? I know we’ve had you on in the past. You should go back and listen, friends, but kind of give us the Sun Valley picture. Kind of tell us a little bit about that to set some context today.Paul Alexander — Yeah, man, been here now for almost 15 years. It’s wild to think back. When I first joined the team, it was one location, 10 acres, one exit, one entrance.Rich Birch — Wow.Paul Alexander — And, you know, there’s a lid to what you can do with that. And so we had originally went multi-site because we had to go multi-site. You know, the mission that Jesus gave the church to help more people meet him and grow up in their friendship with him. We had a lid to that with the space we were in. And so we had to go multi-site. It wasn’t cool. It wasn’t cute. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t an experiment. It was like, if we’re going to obey Jesus, we don’t have an option.Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Paul Alexander — And so over the years, we’ve had the opportunity to add new locations. And, yeah, six physical locations, one in a prison. Our next prison campus opens up Q1. We grand open our Chandler location in March, and we break ground on San Tan in May. So, yeah, man, fun times, lots of people meeting Jesus.Rich Birch — So multi-sites not dead at Sun Valley.Paul Alexander — Man, multi-site’s not dead in America. Yeah.Rich Birch — I know. And it’s true, right? It’s one of those like, people are like, oh, I don’t know. That’s an old idea. I’m like, that’s not what I’m seeing. I’m like, gosh, there’s so many prevailing churches like Sun Valley that are just doubling down. That’s that’s fantastic. Rich Birch — Well, looking forward to today’s conversation. So friends, you’ve joined us actually for within, what did we ask, two questions that were about fears for next year and or for this year, 2026, you caught me. We recorded this late in 2025.Rich Birch — And we’re talking today about the biggest fear. 24.8% of all respondents identified staff health, organizational structure, morale, succession, leadership – the people issues as a primary fear heading into this year. In fact, and then a separate question we asked about data and insight. Where are you lacking some of that? Almost 9% of respondents answered that they’re looking for better data on staff pipeline and org chart and leadership development, these sort of things.Rich Birch — When you combine them together what does that mean? Nearly three in ten surface staff related tension as a defining pressure point for 2026. And when I was thinking about this issue, I thought of no one better than Paul to pull on and to have this conversation with. So Paul, when you look at the churches across the country, you interact with a lot of churches both just because you’re a great person and through Unstuck, and you’re and Sun Valley’s a leading church and people will ask you questions all the time. Where do you think staff health breaks down the most and why is that? Why is this such a tension for us as we lead from our seats?Paul Alexander — Yeah, well, to your point, Rich, it comes up repeatedly with my work with Unstuck with churches. It’s not uncommon to do a health assessment, strategic planning with the church, and you walk out of the room and they have great clarity on vision, on where they’re going next. They have great clarity on strategy, like how they’re actually going to pull this off and do it.Paul Alexander — And yet you walk out of the room and the lid to move towards that vision, actually obey Jesus and do what Jesus has commissioned and command commanded them to do, the lid is the culture of the team. And the team culture and the team structure is what’s holding them back from going where Jesus wants them to go. Paul Alexander — Which we shouldn’t be surprised by this, frankly. that’s That’s the organizational side of how that shows up. This shows up in our own life personally. So on a micro scale, what’s preventing you and I from actually following Jesus and what He’s calling us to do in 2026? Well, it’s not Jesus’s problem. The problem is not with him. The problem usually with us.Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — The problem is with how we structure our life, our family, our time, maybe something in our own heart and in the culture of our own heart and our families.Paul Alexander — And so on on a macro scalele scale in the church, it’s not a surprise that this shows up. Most most churches have a tendency to run on a pendulum, Rich, of either being a really high performing team or a very, very healthy team. And at Unstuck, we want we want staff teams to be both very healthy and very high performing.Paul Alexander — The the problem is most churches, their staff swing through that pendulum from one side to the other. And so, and you’ve seen this repeatedly, where it’s take ground and in just do the next thing. And they’re very project oriented and destination oriented, and they have a tendency to not really care about the soul of the team, the health of the team, and they’re caring much more about the the destination they’re chasing.Paul Alexander — Or they’re sitting around looking at each other, praying for one another, kumbaya-ing together, and they’re neglecting the actual call that God’s put on their life. It’s not just a personal holiness, but to invite others people other people to know Jesus as well.Paul Alexander — And while that’s an over-exaggeration, fundamentally, that’s very true of what happens with staff teams. And so, yeah, walking away from a strategic planning with the church, you’re thinking, oh, they’ve got everything they need.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — They just don’t have the culture to pull it off. their Their staff culture is going to prevent them from going where God wants them to go. Or they’ve hired ah a lot of doers on the team and they don’t actually have leaders. So they’ve hired people to do ministry instead of lead ministry. Or they don’t really have a development pipeline. You know, they don’t have a plan to coach up and build up people that the Lord’s already entrusted to them right underneath their nose, to invite them into leadership in the church. And so, yeah, there’s some overarching things that are common.Rich Birch — Yeah, so when I saw this came out, I wasn’t surprised by this result. We’ve seen similar results in past years. But whenever I look at this fear that leaders have, I’m reminded what our mutual friend Jenni Catrin says. She talks about senior leaders are, we think our staff culture is better than it actually is. Like from our perspective, sitting as an executive pastor, lead pastor, we look around and we’re like, man, this is a great place to work. But that’s not necessarily the case with our people. Rich Birch — Sticking with this idea of like high performing and healthy, when you think about Sun Valley or the churches you coach, what are some practical rhythms or structures that you’ve put in place or seen put in place that really help try to do both of those things. Cause I think that’s, I think that’s ultimately what honors the Lord is like, we do want to be high performing. We, the mission’s massive. Like, gosh, we got to get out and reach some people, but we, we don’t want to drive over our people to get there. Paul Alexander — Yeah.Rich Birch — Help us understand what does that practical, some of those practical rhythms look like.Paul Alexander — Well, I don’t I don’t think a lot of XPs are going like what I’m about to say… Rich Birch — Uh-oh. Paul Alexander — …but you you cannot legislate health. You can’t. You can’t build enough guidelines. You can’t build enough policies. You can’t make people be healthy. You also can’t lead a healthy organization unless you yourself are healthy. It’s that’s a just it’s just a fact. You can’t take your family somewhere you haven’t been.Paul Alexander — You disciple people, to use a Bible word for a second, you can’t disciple your own children and your own family and people close to you by intention or neglect. We do that all the time, and unless you have something to actually give them. And so this is why even in the Old Testament, you know God gives the law and we realize we can’t live up to the law. And so it honestly only shows our own imperfection. Right. And so God you know, Jesus says, “Well, hold on a second. The Sabbath was made for man. Man wasn’t made for the Sabbath.” Paul Alexander — And so um what does that mean? It means, I think, as executive staff, senior staff in the church, you actually have to lead with some moral authority in this area. And so people are going to watch if if they get an email from you at 11 o’clock at night, that tells them what’s expected of them. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Without you ever even saying it, you’re telling them what’s expected. If you’re texting them after work hours, so to speak, and it’s not an emergency, it actually, you know, it could probably wait till tomorrow, but you’re having it right now because it’s important to you, and you don’t have the personal self-control to be able to not have that conversation with that staff member at that time.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Paul Alexander — You’re telling them how they’re supposed to behave. They’re watching you just again, leadership so much like parenting. And I don’t want to minimize this, but children watch their parents and they naturally adhere to and take on the behaviors of their parents and the family unit that they grow up in. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.Paul Alexander — And culture a lot like that. It’s way more caught than taught. And so the leaders of the executive staff and senior staff, they’ve got to lead with moral authority, not moral perfection. We’re not going to see that this side of seeing Jesus, right? Not moral superiority. We’re not better than anybody. But just to be able to say, hey, man, if if everybody at my church and on my staff. If they manage their time the way I manage my time, if they manage their finances the way I manage my finances, if they used alcohol the way I use alcohol, or if they use the internet or social media the way I do, if they traded their… would my church be more of what Jesus wants it to be or less?Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s so good.Paul Alexander — And so there’s a moral authority component to this. They got to model this. Okay.Paul Alexander — Now, practically, Rich, because you know, okay, what does it actually mean? Take your time off. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Like that sounds so silly, but I mean, I remember as a young guy in ministry, my my wife was working Monday through Friday. Friday was supposed to be my day off. I’m not the kind of guy that’s going to sit around and like watch Oprah on Friday. Or like, you know, just snack and binge watch Netflix or something like that. That’s not how God wired me up. And so I would just go into the office.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And I’m like, my my wife’s working. Well, we don’t have kids. um I’m going to go get some stuff done. I’m going to move the ball forward.Rich Birch — Yeah.Paul Alexander — And I remember the XP I was working with on the senior staff at the time came in to get something out of the office. And he saw me and he’s like, Paul, what are you what are you doing? And so I do the whole, my wife’s working and I’m not going to sit around and watch Netflix, blah, blah, blah. He’s like… he gave me a gift. He said, Paul, if you don’t take every day off between now and the end of the year, don’t bother coming in in January.Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.Paul Alexander — Yeah, yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — Wow.Paul Alexander — And looking back, that high challenge was a tremendous gift, to begin to teach a young man in ministry that had a propensity to drive hard to learn how to actually slow down and enjoy my life and receive from the Lord.Rich Birch — That’s interesting.Paul Alexander — And so, um yeah, take your day off. It sounds so silly.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. No, it’s good.Paul Alexander — I get a report on my desk once a year, Rich, of all of our staff, even multiple campuses, all that, who’s taking their time off and who hasn’t taken their time off. And it’s not uncommon for me to have a conversation in January to say, hey, dude, if you don’t take all your time off this year, we’re going to have a problem. Because you’re no good burning out. The Lord needs you in the game for the long run.Rich Birch — Yeah.Paul Alexander — And I need you in the game for the long run. Sun Valley needs you in the game for the long run. Rich Birch — Yeah. Right. Paul Alexander — Your family needs that, and you can’t self destruct. So.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I had a similar interaction early on in ministry where I had a senior leader say to me, it with a similar kind of tone, don’t forget, take your day off is on the same list as don’t kill someone. Like, you know, which always stuck with me where I was like, you know, okay. And he said it in a funny kind of like, but but the message was was clear, right?Paul Alexander — Yeah.Rich Birch — Same kind of thing. Hey, we, and I don’t know that I’ve always lived by that. Paul Alexander — Yeah, sure.Rich Birch — Are there other behaviors that you, you know, in a similar way would lean in. I think the fact that you’re pushing on, okay, as us as senior leaders, are we setting the pace with the health of our organizations? Lean a little bit more in on that for us.Paul Alexander — Yeah, sure. So a couple of practical things that any leader can actually make their decision to start doing today. Establish a finish line. In some regards, you know, when is ministry ever really done? Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Well, when 7.5 billion people on the planet know Jesus, we’re done, right? So it’s one of those, the poor will have you with you you’ll have with you always. There’s never going to be a done moment. So you got to choose each day when you’re done. And if you don’t choose it, someone else will choose it for you. Paul Alexander — And so talk with your family, figure it out. And there may be a moving target from day to day and what the rhythm of your family is and the rhythm of your ministry is the Lord’s entrusted to you. But you have to personally establish when’s the finish line. I’m going to turn my phone off. I’m gonna turn my email off. I’m going to mute this or whatever. And unless something’s burning down, I’m not going to I’m not going to jump in. Simple things.Paul Alexander — Marriage retreats. We started experimenting some time ago with marriage retreats for our staff at Sun Valley. And so like everybody would say, it’s a good thing for people’s marriages to get better. And sometimes we’ll do that for our people in our churches. And we just thought, well, gosh, what if we did that for our staff? You know, if the marriages of our staff got better, would the ministries that the Lord’s entrusted to them get better? Of course they would.Rich Birch — Of course they would, yeah.Paul Alexander — So we just started doing a marriage retreat couple times a year for our staff.Rich Birch — Wow.Paul Alexander — We invite, you know, 10 to 15 couples. We have a professional counselor that we pay for that runs the thing. And we we just do that as a as a gift to our staff. Because we think, if our staff marriages get better, the ministry that the Lord’s entrusted to them will get better. Paul Alexander — We do sabbaticals every seven years for our full-time director level staff and up. And there’s a period of time that they get and a financial allowance they get. And they think about it in three in three different buckets, like professional development, personal development, and just family. And and ultimately we want them to rest so they can minister from a from a full cup, you know?Paul Alexander — And ah some time ago, we actually made the decision. It didn’t cost us anything, Rich, that even our full-time staff, no matter what their level in the organization was. So for example, a full-time administrative assistant. If they’re full-time, every seven years they get a sabbatical. We give them… Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Paul Alexander — …yeah, you’re full-time admin at Sun Valley. You get, now the scale of it’s a little different.Rich Birch — Sure.Paul Alexander — We just give them a month off with no financial allowance, but we give a month off every seven years to take at one lump sum… Rich Birch — Wow. Paul Alexander — …to get out and refresh their soul and enjoy their life a little bit. What’s that really cost us? Nothing, but time.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Paul Alexander — Nothing.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And so, yeah, there’s some real tactical things that you can do to invest in your team. Again, you can’t make them be healthy people, but you can kind of roll the carpet out and pave the way for them to be healthy people.Rich Birch — I love that. That’s some real practical examples. I love what you’ve you’ve outlined there and been you know super practical. That’s, yeah, that’s fantastic. I get the sabbatical question actually quite a bit. I think churches wrestle with that and they you know they they think, oh, you know how should we do that? So you do, kind of like what we would typically think of as a sabbatical at director and above, but then everyone else does kind of this one one month off. That’s great. And they do they have to submit a plan for the sabbatical ahead of time? Some churches will do that where they have to kind of define, hey, this is how we’re going to do. Just give us a little more detail on that.Paul Alexander — Yeah. We’re not uber religious about it, Rich. Rich Birch — Sure. Paul Alexander — We, we, we, there is a plan and their supervisor talks through their plan with them… Rich Birch — Yeah. Paul Alexander — …because there’s a financial allowance that follows that. Rich Birch — Yep.Paul Alexander — So yeah, they have the conversation ahead of time. As a representative of the board, I actually sign off on all those sabbaticals just to make sure they’re thinking about and they’re thinking…Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — …intelligently about how they want to spend their time. But functionally, to be honest, like you and your wife just went on vacation, right?Rich Birch — Yep.Paul Alexander — If our staff went on vacation for like an entire sabbatical and sat on the beach for a month or two, and they came back a little bit more rested, and they’d read a couple of books and spent time with the Lord… Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — …and they walked and prayed and fasted and enjoyed their life a little bit, they’d probably come back a little healthier. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s great.Paul Alexander — So I don’t have strong feelings about it, man. Rest, enjoy your life.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.Paul Alexander — Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s so good. I love that. I want to loop back on one thing you talked about earlier. You talked about hiring or or are the way our staff position themselves as doers versus leaders. I think this is a critical Ephesians 4, how we’re supposed to be equipping our people. But I see way too many of our team members, I see us fall into this all the time where we just slip into doing. Coach us around that. What difference does that make around cultures in our organizations?Paul Alexander — Well, yeah. Wow. Now you’re starting to talk about where accountability comes into play in culture, right? And where culture gets violated.Paul Alexander — So it’s not uncommon. So I still, at the size we are, director level and up, I still at least have a phone conversation interview with every single director level hire and up about our culture as they’re joining the team here. And if they do join the team, we go through net new staff orientation. Once a quarter, Chad, the lead pastor and myself, spend a half a day with all of our new staff and talk through our culture and our philosophy of ministry and our strategy and all that stuff.Paul Alexander — And frankly, it’s just a time to hang out have a meal together and create some relational accessibility. Because most these people I’m not going to work with day to day. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — But I want them to know that we care about them, love them, and they’re they’re part of the family now. And so we we don’t hire people that aren’t absolutely fantastic, incredibly gifted people. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And it’s easy to compliment everybody in the room. Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — Hey man, glad you’re on the team. Whether I hired you or somebody else hired you, I know you’re awesome because we don’t hire people that aren’t awesome. And you were gifted, you’re gifted. Someone saw something in you. We invited you to the team. But here’s the deal. You’re no longer going to be evaluated on how awesome you are. Now that you’re on the team—congratulations—you’re going to be evaluated how awesome you can make everybody else. Rich Birch — So good.Paul Alexander — And so your job and how great you are and gifted you are and skilled you are, that’s what got you in the room. What’s going to keep you in the room is your ability to make everybody else just as incredible as you. And so we just say that from the very beginning. Paul Alexander — And, you know, a lot of churches, their ministry staff kind of think, OK, I have to get all these volunteers in place to help them accomplish my ministry. At Sun Valley, we flipped that upside down. And the hero of the ministry at Sun Valley is the volunteer. We’re helping the church actually be the church. The staff’s role is to be a servant, to help people find their gifting, their place, their calling. And real leaders who are getting paid real money that attend your churches, um they want to solve big problems. They don’t want to just push a broom. Now, occasionally you run into the CEO or the general or whatever, who’s like, I just want to push a broom to help me remain humble. Great. We can we have a lot of brooms you can push.Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — But most people are competent, skilled, gifted, educated people. And they want to be called into something that’s big, and where they feel like they’re making a real difference. And so, yeah, our job as a staff is to call them into that, tee them up for that, support them in that, and let them run. Not let them run within the boundaries of our strategy and our culture and our vision, but let them run. So, but we’ve got to paint the riverbanks for them.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s really good. I love that. You know, kind of a related issue is how how is Sun Valley ensuring that you’ve got the right people in the right seats? What does that look like in your system? Like, how are you, like, what’s the what’s the cadence of, you know, regular reporting and like goal setting? Paul Alexander — Yeah.Rich Birch — And, you know, how are you holding people accountable? What does that what does that look like? I realize that could be like a whole episode in of itself… Paul Alexander — Sure. Rich Birch — …but give us kind of a thumbnail version of that.Paul Alexander — Yeah. Thumbnail. I mean, at the end of the day, I’ll give you the, how it happens, but, besides the hiring process and recruiting process, that stuff matters a lot. Right. So you’re inviting people to something that they’re actually gifted and called to. But at the end of the day, um it’s really results, Rich. The Bible way to say that is fruit. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — OK, for all of our listeners who are high on the theology side of things, I can sympathize with you. I went to Bible school, too. Really, it’s fruit. And when you are in a place, when your staff are in a place where they’re playing to their strengths and their gifting, and they’re in a place where they’re not overreaching and trying to attain a different role, and they’re not talking about career path, they’re just content to be the person and play the part in the body of the Lord’s gifted and call them to to play, they’re going to have more fun and they’re going to produce more fruit.Rich Birch — Yep.Paul Alexander — It’s just a fact. And so when when you see all this striving and, you know, this ambition to like, I want more, I want more, I want more. It’s a very American, Western idea, right? And the biblical way of doing that would be, hey, well why don’t you be faithful with what the Lord’s entrusted with you today? And when he sees fit to entrust more to you, guess what? He probably will.Rich Birch — He will.Paul Alexander — There’s probably going be some stray arrow out of the battle that was never even intended to hit that guy. It’s going to find just the right place in the chink in the armor. And you’re going to ascend to the throne at the right time when the Lord wants you to. So, you know, relax. Do what the Lord’s called you to do today.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Be faithful in that.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And he’ll entrust more to you when he’s ready.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — So that’s a big deal. that it may sound ah like a contrite, a little bit Bible answer to that. But when your staff are personally in a place where they’re doing what God’s called them to do, and they’re they’re very sober-minded about that, they’re going to have more fun. That’s really important. They’re go to have more fun in ministry. It’s going to be more fulfilling and they’re going to produce more fruit.Paul Alexander — Now, how’s that work its way out with what you’re talking about? We have an annual run of strategic planning that we do, both senior staff and then at the campus level. And that we refresh that every single year. Out of that come real clear objectives where the Lord’s calling us to go. Then goals, professional goals are set around that at the campus level. And then that kind of trickles down. That all gets into review systems. There’s monthly one-on-ones where they’re talking about the performance side of things.Paul Alexander — But it’s really normal, Rich, where if you and I were working with one another and I was reporting to you, you’d say, hey, Paul, what’s going on with you and Lisa? And you’d be asking about my daughters and you’d be asking about my sons. And we’d be talking about life and marriage and family. And and what’s the Lord doing in your life? What’s he saying to you these days? You know, and you know where’s he challenging you? Where’s he encouraging you? So they’re very natural, normal, that part of things there. You’d probably pray for me actually in that meeting that one-on-one. Paul Alexander — And then we talk about, okay, how are we doing with our goals? What what are the measurables? What are the setbacks? Because there’s always setbacks. Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — And what are the things that went faster than you thought they would go? And you’re finding real real traction.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And then my your job as a supervisor would be, how do you get roadblocks out of the way for me to be successful? Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — How do you fuel things that I need fueled so I can be successful and and reach my goals? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Paul Alexander — So yeah, does that make sense? Rich Birch — That makes total sense. So I, you know, in other contexts, I’ve said results matter because the work that you do matters so much. Like and, and we, and we, we want to think about results. We want to think about fruit. What percentage of, or you know, in a round sense of the team at Sun Valley has like a number or a metric or a like they can measure, it’s not like qualitative, like, oh, things are better. It’s like, no, no, we know. I know whether this is working or not. What percentage of your people you think have a metric like that they they think about on a regular basis?Paul Alexander — All of them.Rich Birch — Love it. Tell us about that. I think this is going to be mind blowing for leaders of churches who do not think about these things. And I know, you know, there’s people out there who, who they they haven’t wrestled with this idea. Unpack that a little bit more.Paul Alexander — Yeah. So, I mean, okay. So if I say, I want my marriage to get better this year, we’ll go real personal for a second. Rich Birch — Sure.Paul Alexander — I want to get my marriage. That’s wonderful. Who doesn’t want their marriage to get better? How are you going to do that?Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — That that just doesn’t magically happen. You don’t drift towards relational intimacy with your spouse.Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — What you do is you drift apart. That’s what happens.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Absence doesn’t make the grow heart grow fonder. It makes it wander. Rich Birch — Yes. Paul Alexander — And so, you know, you’ve got to figure out, okay, how many date nights am I going to do? How much am I going to budget towards this? Are we going to do an annual retreat as a husband and a spouse together, maybe a marriage retreat? Are we going to go on vacation? What are the conversations we feel like we need to lean into? Do we need some do we need some coaching? Rich, if you’re a professional counselor, do I need to go to you and get some some input and some professional coaching? Because goodness gracious, you can see some things that I don’t see because I’m in the fray of it day in and day out. Paul Alexander — So yeah, we’ll get real tactical and say, what book are you going to read? How many of those books are you going to read? What podcast? Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Are you going listen to the unSeminary podcast? You know. What are you going to do to to grow and in your marriage this year or as a leader. And so, yeah, if you can’t measure it, then you can’t actually do it. Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — And then it gets down to opinions and, you know, everybody’s got one of those. So.Rich Birch — Yeah. Alright. I imagine imagine I’m an executive pastor you meet at a conference or you’re somewhere and you’re at an airport lounge, and they’re church of a thousand people, maybe 1500 people. They’ve got 10 staff and they’re sensing that, man, there’s some misalignment, but it’s it’s at the level of like, I think there might be a problem here. I’m not entirely sure. I feel like there’s cracks starting to happen in the staff culture, but it’s not like a giant fizzer. It’s just like things just don’t feel right. What would be some of the first steps that you would suggest a leader take to try to get clarity on actually where things are at with their staff team… Paul Alexander — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, in the next 90 days kind of thing?Paul Alexander — Yeah, that’s a good question. Okay, so first of all, I’d say, and this may sound, I mean, play Captain Obvious for a second, don’t ignore that inclination.Rich Birch — That’s good.Paul Alexander — So the Holy Spirit is is is impressing upon you, something doesn’t smell right, then it probably doesn’t smell right.Rich Birch — That’s good.Paul Alexander — Don’t bury that. Don’t avoid that. Avoiding something you know you have to solve is never going to make that situation better, ever.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Paul Alexander — And so don’t avoid it. Go with that feeling. Lean into it a little bit and and begin. Why? Why do I feel this way? What is what am I sensing that needs to be solved? Because my hunch is they’re anticipating something. If they are a good intuitive leader, they’re probably anticipating something before it’s going to happen.Paul Alexander — And so structure is always a lid to growth in a church. Churches always need to restructure. This is really important. So once you get a structure, it’s not like, oh we’re going to be with this structure for the next 15 years. Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — And if it’s a growing church, you’re always going to need to restructure. And that’s just normal. Get used to it.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — It’s just part of what it is. Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — And so I think you’ve got decipher, is it a structure issue or is it a culture issue? That that’s, you know, Wwhat am I sensing that needs to be actually needs to be solved? If it’s a culture issue, where is there a violation of your culture taking place, and how do you help it get better? Maybe you haven’t defined what your culture is. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Maybe you can’t actually really articulate it. Maybe you haven’t written it down, trained it. Maybe you have not filmed 5 to 10 minute videos for every new staff member to to onboarding to actually understand your cultural distinctives. Maybe you’ve not embedded that into your annual reviews and actually, you know at review time, you’re actually reviewing me on how we’re doing, how I’m doing with our staff culture.Paul Alexander — So maybe that’s something you need to just kind of look in the mirror and say, you know what, as a leader, I have the power to change that. And I’m going to get that better this next year. We’re going really clear about what our staff culture is. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Paul Alexander — And then we’re going embed that and train it. If it’s a structural thing, is it truly a structural thing or do you have one or two players that just aren’t playing their part? You know, you’ve got ah this wonderful body the Lord’s put together. He talks about the church being the body of Christ, this wonderful body but where we’re limping because our ankle, we got a bum ankle. And the reality is we either need to rest it, you know, so we can get it healed up. We need to maybe get some repair done to it, or we need to like reconstruct that thing. We need a new ankle. Rich Birch — Yeah.Paul Alexander — All of those are fine answers. And I think just being honest about the team that we have and everybody playing in the right place. And then structurally, you start to get into span of care and you know do we have the right number of staff? Those are real answers you can really get. When we do staffing and structure with churches at the Unstuck Group, there are real healthy benchmarks. There are real healthy financial numbers that are good benchmarks, you know. If you’re spending more than 50 cents on the dollar on your staffing, you should ask yourself why.Paul Alexander — You know, if you have more than your staffing, you’re, you know, beyond one to 75 and you’re creeping into an area that’s really unhealthy. You know, I’ve seen churches that are staffed like one full time staff member for every 30 attenders at the church.Rich Birch — Right, right.Paul Alexander — And you’re just like. It’s sad, frankly, because the Lord’s called us to so much more. And um so those are those are like the basic science side of things that need to be changed. You know, if you’re not clear about who your senior staff is, if you got, if your senior staff, like your executive staff, are making decisions about like the color of the carpet, and they’re making decisions that that are low-level decisions, then you kind of got to look in the mirror and say, boy, are we training our staff that all big decisions have to come to us? Or are we pushing decisions down and actually teaching people how to lead and make decisions? So myriad of things.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s so good. One of, in last year’s, kind of rundown of, you know, most listened to podcasts, Amy from the Unstuck Group, hers, I think was our second most listened to podcast. And she, she dove in deep on exactly what we were just talking about their, friends. You should go back in the archives, find that episode. It will, it’ll, you know, all that structure stuff. Rich Birch — And I would say on that, particularly on structure and some of those benchmarks, I think too many of us think our church is like this precious, it’s so different than every other church out there. And and and that’s true. It is a unique body. There’s a there’s one way that that is true. But in this way, there are actually a lot of commonalities you can learn from other churches and gain wisdom from folks like Paul who have done this before and talked with lots of churches. So don’t don’t be in isolation about this, Paul. This has been an incredibly helpful. I’ve got a page of notes and other questions I wanted to ask as we were going through. Oh, I want to talk about that. Oh, I want to talk about that.Rich Birch — But I know you’ve got other things to do than be on our podcast. But as you’re thinking about the 2026, the year coming up here, what’s a question or two that you’re wrestling with that you’re thinking through? It doesn’t have to be on what we just talked about there. But just as you think about the future of Sun Valley, what are some things that you’re thinking about going into this year?Paul Alexander — Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, we pressure we’ve deal with pressure points just like every church does, right? Frankly, the pressure points we’re dealing with, we’re going through a season of a couple of years of pretty significant growth. A lot of people needing Jesus. last This is the first time in back-to-back years we baptized more than 1500 people, you know, in back-to-back years. And so there’s a huge responsibility that our growth, our front end growth is beginning to outpace our engagement. Things like people engaging in groups and building meaningful friendships that are around God’s word or, engaging and volunteering and being the church, not just coming to church, right? And a giving, learning to be generous, generous and steward with the Lord’s entrusted to them. Kind of these markers that we see of people who are actually beginning to look like Jesus. They’re not just, you know, you know, attending church and trying to figure Jesus out a little bit.Paul Alexander — And so in a lot of ways, we need a bigger boat. We’ve got multiple campuses that are doing two services on Saturday and three services on Sunday. And we’ve, we’ve got to get some bigger rooms. And you know, the other side of it is is growth sometimes can grow faster than our ability to grow leaders. I mean, you think about your own personal leadership, Rich. I mean, how long has it taken you to become the leader you are today?Rich Birch — Right. Right. Not overnight. Not in 18 months.Paul Alexander — Yeah, your whole life.Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.Paul Alexander — Yeah, the answer is your whole life. Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — And so there’s definitely been crucible moments. My hunch is if we unpack your leadership journey, there’s been crucible moments where the Lord has ah stretched and grown you in unique ways and unique seasons because of pressure points that you went through. And so um we’re figuring out how do we accelerate leadership in in our staff?Rich Birch — That’s good.Paul Alexander — And you you accelerate leadership not by by giving resources, but by constricting resources. Because leaders always figured out and grow through constriction moments. Rich Birch — That’s good.Paul Alexander — And so giving stretch assignments, all those kind of fun things. So yeah, we deal with pressure points just like everybody else does. I mean, everybody’s like, oh, I’d love to have that problem. I know you would. It’s a wonderful problem to have. It’s still a problem because we don’t want to become a lid to more people meeting Jesus in 2026. You know, by us not solving something that’s in our control to solve.Rich Birch — Yeah. In other contexts, I’ve talked about platinum problems. Those are are great problems, but they’re still problems with things we have to wrestle with. And and friends, if you’re not tracking with Sun Valley, you should be, or Paul or the Unstuck Group, these are all organizations you should be getting a chance to kind of follow along with. If people want to kind of connect with the church, get a better sense, follow along with your story, where do we want to send them online? Tell us about that. And then also Unstuck Group. I want to make sure we we send people there too.Paul Alexander — Yeah, Unstuck Group is super easy to find. Unstuckgroup.com. The listeners can email me at paul@theunstuckgroup.com. That’s the easiest way to get me, frankly. The easiest, cleanest way to get me if someone has a question or wants to follow up on something personally. I’m happy to do that, man.Rich Birch — Thanks so much, Paul. I appreciate you being here today and and really looking forward to seeing what happens in 2026 at Sun Valley. Take care, man.Paul Alexander — Yeah, glad to, man. Thanks for the invitation. Hope the conversation is helpful.