Hangar DX Podcast

"Let’s not worry about how fast somebody can run. Let’s assume that they will be fast if they’re in a rocket."In this episode of The Hangar DX podcast, Shahab Malik, DevEx UX Researcher at JP Morgan Chase, discusses researching developers' needs and pain points in a 70,000-engineer organization and advocates for an enablement approach to developer productivity metrics. Chapters00:00 Introduction to Developer Experience and UX Research01:59 The Role of UX Research in Developer Experience05:21 Methodologies in UX Research10:08 Understanding Developer Needs and Pain Points13:59 Metrics and Measuring Developer Productivity20:52 The Importance of System Metrics vs. Individual Metrics27:40 Communicating Developer Experience to Leadership32:43 The Impact of AI on Developer ExperienceAbout Shahab MalikShahab Malik is a UX Researcher at JPMorgan Chase, where he focuses on Developer Experience (DevEx) within the firm’s Internal Developer Platform (IDP). With a PhD in cultural anthropology, Shahab brings both qualitative and quantitative methods to studying human behavior in complex technical environments. About Hangar DX (https://dx.community/)The Hangar is a community of senior DevOps engineers and senior software engineers focused on enhancing the developer experience. This is a space where vetted, experienced professionals can exchange ideas, share hard-earned wisdom, troubleshoot issues, and help each other in their projects and careers.We invite developers who work in DX and platform teams at their respective companies or who are interested in developer productivity to join us!

Patrick Debois—widely known as the “Godfather of DevOps” and co-author of The DevOps Handbook—joins Aviator CEO Ankit Jain on The Hangar DX Podcast to explore the parallels between the DevOps movement and today’s AI revolution.In this conversation, Patrick compares AI adoption to the early chaotic days of DevOps and shares his view on how developer roles are shifting from producers to supervisors of AI-generated code, why code reviews and specs still matter, and what the four key patterns of AI Native Development are.About Patrick Debois Patrick Debois is often called the "Godfather of DevOps" for his pioneering role in the movement that reshaped how teams build and ship software. He is the co-author of the DevOps Handbook and principal product engineer at Humans and Code. Patrick's work focuses on helping engineering teams become more productive with AI tooling, and delivering AI-powered products with engineering rigor and good practices. About Hangar DX (https://dx.community/)The Hangar is a community of senior DevOps engineers and senior software engineers focused on enhancing the developer experience. This is a space where vetted, experienced professionals can exchange ideas, share hard-earned wisdom, troubleshoot issues, and help each other in their projects and careers.We invite developers who work in DX and platform teams at their respective companies or who are interested in developer productivity to join us!

"Metrics will not measure developer productivity and will not solve your engineering organization’s problems", say Adam Berry, Staff Engineer at Netflix.Adam sits with Ankit Jain, host of The Hangar DX podcast, to discuss one of the most debated topics in engineering: developer productivity metrics.Adam shares why metrics like the DORA4 were never meant to measure individual productivity, how trust (or lack of it) inside organizations changes the way metrics are used, and why managers often get lost in numbers instead of focusing on narrative and impact.He explains that metrics are a feedback mechanism, the “metrics industrial complex,” and pitfalls of over-measuring, and how to design metrics from scratch. 00:00 Introduction to Developer Productivity Metrics01:23 The Origins of Productivity Metrics07:22 The Obsession with Metrics10:44 Challenges in Measuring Developer Productivity12:33 The Metrics Industrial Complex15:38 The Role of Metrics in Understanding Delivery Performance19:31 Designing Effective Metrics for Organizations21:57 Understanding Quality Issues in Engineering34:32 Measuring Code Quality and Technical Debt39:02 Prioritizing Engineering Challenges41:42 Future of Engineering ProductivityAbout Adam BerryAdam has worked on developer tools and infrastructure throughout his career, from Eclipse plugins to service and infrastructure work; he now focuses on developer platforms as products to empower engineers and make teams and organizations drastically more effective.About Hangar DX (https://dx.community/)The Hangar is a community of senior DevOps engineers and senior software engineers, focused on enhancing the developer experience. This is a space where vetted, experienced professionals can exchange ideas, share hard-earned wisdom, troubleshoot issues, and help each other in their projects and careers.We invite developers who work in DX and platform teams at their respective companies, or who are interested in developer productivity.

Meri Williams, CTO at Pleo and a former leader at Monzo and Moo, dives into the evolving role of engineering leadership in an AI-driven world. She discusses the need for strong management structures to support teams as AI takes a larger coding role. Meri emphasizes the importance of developer experience and managing technical debt while adapting to AI’s capabilities. Additionally, she highlights the essential skills engineers must cultivate to lead effectively in this fast-changing landscape, blending technical expertise with managerial insight.

“What’s your AI strategy’ is the wrong question for engineering leaders. A better one would be: “What are you doing to improve engineering efficiency by 15–20%?”You don’t have to chase AI just for AI’s sake. Instead, focus on the biggest pain point, on whatever is slowing your teams down. In most orgs, it has nothing to do with needing faster typers.”In this episode of the HangarDX podcast, Ankit Jain, co-founder and CEO of Aviator, talks to Chris Westerhold, Global Practice Director for Engineering Excellence at Thoughtworks, to discuss how AI is fundamentally transforming the developer experience (DevEx). Chris talks about how AI is changing the definition of developer, engineering orgs feeling FOMO of not adopting AI tools instead of focusing on workflow pain points, AI tools adding to cognitive overload, how to evaluate the productivity gains of AI tools, and what’s the right approach to AI strategy when it comes to developer experience. 00:00 Introduction to Developer Experience and AI01:12 The Evolution of Developer Experience04:30 Navigating Tool Proliferation in Software Development09:35 Cognitive Load and Complexity in AI-Driven Development18:04 Finding Focused Solutions Amidst AI Hype20:58 Metrics and Measuring AI Impact34:06 Developing an AI Strategy for Engineering TeamsAbout Chris WesterholdChris is a Global Practice Director for Engineering Excellence at Thoughtworks. He has over 15 years of technology experience across startups and large enterprises, with a significant focus on building scalable engineering teams, engineering metrics strategies, developer platforms, platform engineering, and technical product management. He is a vocal advocate for developer experience and is passionate about using data-driven approaches to improve it.About Hangar DX (https://dx.community/)The Hangar is a community of senior DevOps and senior software engineers focused on developer experience. This is a space where vetted, experienced professionals can exchange ideas, share hard-earned wisdom, troubleshoot issues, and ultimately help each other in their projects and careers.We invite developers who work in DX and platform teams at their respective companies, or who are interested in developer productivity.

What Actually Is Platform Engineering? Platform engineering is everywhere — but is it just DevOps with a new name? In this candid conversation, Ankit Jain sits down with Vilas Veeraghavan (ex-Walmart, ex-Netflix) and Bryan Finster (platform advocate and continuous delivery expert) to break down the truth behind the hype.🔍 In this episode:00:00 What is Platform Engineering 05:53 DevOps is alive and well11:51 Challenges in Platform Engineering: Adoption vs. Enablement14:51 Standardization in Platform Engineering: The Golden Path17:54 Measuring Success in Platform Engineering: ROI and Developer Happiness21:00 Success and Failure Stories in Platform Engineering25:01 The Strength of a Good Platform27:51 Understanding Internal Developer Platforms (IDP)35:30 The Impact of AI on Platform Engineering44:18 Future Predictions for Platform Engineering

"Augmenting engineers with AI wherever it makes sense so they can be more productive" is the mission of Daniel Doubrovkine and his Augmented Engineering team at Shopify. In this episode of the HangarDX podcast, Ankit Jain, co-founder and CEO of Aviator, talks to Daniel about AI’s impact on software engineering and developer productivity. He shares insights on Shopify’s AI-integrated workflows and strategies to improve the developer experience in what he calls a giant mono repo, the world's largest Ruby on Rails app. Daniel also reflects on his career path from individual contributor to management and back, and the importance of staying hands-on with code in an AI-driven future.Chapters00:00 AI in Software Engineering06:36 Solving Engineering Problems With AI at Shopify18:46 Prioritization and Planning in Developer Productivity23:15 From IC to Manager and Back 28:52 The Individual Contributor vs. Manager Dilemma34:44 AI is Getting Better Fast37:30 Strategies for Successful AI Adoption in OrganizationsFind more episodes at https://www.aviator.co/podcast

Dr. Cat Hicks, a psychologist researching software teams, on what cycle time can and can't measure, why software metrics are hard, and why developers feel their work is invisible.This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit podcast.aviator.co

Charity Majors, Co-founder and CTO of Honeycomb.io, shares insights on fostering a culture of continuous deployment in software engineering. She emphasizes the importance of viewing production as a dynamic system and the need for robust feedback loops. The conversation highlights the evolving role of Site Reliability Engineers and the significance of a blameless culture. Charity also discusses AI's potential to enhance observability, advocating for transparency and training to streamline software delivery.

Seasoned technologist Tracy Bannon from MITRE discusses the role of software engineering, developer experience and AI in government tech.This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit podcast.aviator.co