Gospel Reverb | Grace Communion International Resources

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Catherine Toon. Catherine is a Christian author, speaker, and coach who shows you how to experience God so that you can confidently live out your God-breathed purpose. She’s the author of the book Marked by Love and several others. And she has her own podcast called Perspectives with Catherine Toon, which you can find on YouTube, and I encourage you to do. Catherine, thanks for being with us and welcome to the pod. And since this is your first time here, we’d like to get to know you a little bit, your story, and especially what has you experiencing delight these days. [00:01:30] Catherine: Thank you so much. This is a joy and an honor, and I’m so happy to be here. And I love that question. I don’t get that question. What is giving you delight these days? And I think. Probably how to answer that is just in our communion with this gorgeous God that is so wild about us and experiencing his delight over us. He is delighted in his kids. And I know early on when I wrote the book, the Lord said, “Catherine, you’re the fabric of my delight.” And this is how he sees us. This is not just me. And this is how he feels about us. So, his delight is our delight. And he’s such good Father, such a good Son, such a — the Holy Spirit in us, through us, moving around us — is such a — the person of God is delightful. And just experiencing his delight is my delight. And when we’re able to slow down, we’re able to see that in small things. We’re able to see that all around, every day. When we’re frantic and driven and fearful, we miss out. So, one of the things he’s been doing is slowing me down, which takes some doing by the way. And that’s been a work in progress and I’m doing pretty good, I have to say. And he’s telling me I’m doing pretty good, so I can actually say that. But with that, I’ve been able to savor things that I’ve missed. And so that’s been a joy. That’s been something beautiful that comes to bear in the midst of life, which is life in all its variegated flavors. [00:03:34] Anthony: Yeah, it’s so wonderful to hear you talk about God delighting in us. I grew up with unfortunately this misconstrued idea of who God was and I just felt he was constantly, at least had a low-grade disappointment in me. So, to think of a God who delights, it’s just it felt too wonderful to imagine back then and so to come into this apprehension. I don’t fully comprehend it, but this apprehension of the goodness of God revealed in Jesus Christ. It changes everything, doesn’t it, Catherine? And you find delight, like you said, in the small things. I’m fascinated by your background, if this is correct. I read that you were a board-certified internal medicine medical doctor, and I’d love if you’re willing to share to know the backstory of how you left behind that vocation of internal medicine to practice another kind of internal medicine that God has prescribed to us, and that’s God’s love revealed in Jesus Christ. Would you mind sharing? [00:04:37] Catherine: I would be delighted to. [00:04:39] Anthony: There you go. [00:04:41] Catherine: Yes, I practice as a board-certified in internal medicine physician, actually in the Colorado Springs area where I am now. And that was my original vocation because of difficulties, dysfunction when I was growing up, I learned the lie that you’re worth and value is what you can do. So, in my mind, my little 7-year-old brain, I just thought what’s the hardest thing I can think of? And so that was being a physician. And so, I had been having encounters with the Lord, but I didn’t bother asking him if this was the direction he had for me. And so, I just pursued it. I just threw myself into it and there were a lot of really good things about it. The challenge is that it fit until it didn’t, and the grace for it really lifted. And I got very burned out. I loved my patients. I loved the intellectual challenge, everything else I did not love. And so, I was very burnt out. And then I also met my husband, wanted to raise a family, and there are ways to do that, but I really wanted to be there with my kids. And God and his mercy, his goodness, his delight helped me pay off all my loans, helped me practice for a while after all of that. And then I was able to come home. And part of that was because my husband was in the Navy. So, I asked the Lord to settle down with someone and put down roots, and he gave me a Navy man, go figure. And so, we danced around the country for a long time, and every time I’d move to another place, I’d say I really need to get my license and practice. And I just couldn’t do it. I just did not have the desire and just really wanted to be with my kids. So that happened. And then this funny thing happened as I was diving into really getting to know this God. I was not born in a Christian home. I’d say I was born in a religious home. It was a secular humanism, religious home. And then, so I projected a lot of that mess on God in terms of performance and that sort of thing. And that I would say more than vague disapproval, I would say flat out distance or flat out never good enough type of internalized mess. And that had to be cleaned up. And so, God led me through that process and then he did this really weird thing. He called me into ministry. I became one of those weird people that I had thought was like, dang, who are these Christian people? And so that set me on a journey through multiple streams in the body of Christ. Things that were excellent, things that were out in that religious things mixed bag until he led me through where we’ve landed now in this Trinitarian stream, this God who embraces all that sort of thing. And so, I’ve been camping out there, served in various capacities, helped plant a church, all these different things. And then he finally called me out on my own as I launched my first book, Marked by Love. And then called me to continue what I was already doing in terms of coaching and mentoring and then of course teaching and then called me with a podcast. And so that’s been a really encapsulated historical overview. [00:08:32] Anthony: Yeah. And I’m going to make this personal, if I may, as someone who is still recovering from performance-based religion and someone who is sometimes identified, I don’t know if you’ve done any work with the Enneagram, but I’m a three, known as a performer, achiever. Always trying to strive for love. Like, how what was the process for you to be led by the Spirit, ah, to overcome this need for performance to achieve love. What was it for you? [00:09:05] Catherine: That is, that’s, I would say, it’s an ongoing process. Anthony: Sure. Catherine: Because when I arrive, I will come find you. But it was really encounter with this God. I’m very prophetic and so I get a lot of things visually. I get a lot of things in an auditory capacity and just learning to settle down and let him love me. Like he would refuse to let me do anything. And there were seasons in my life where he literally he had a prophet come one time and she was. Just bless her heart. She was just very strange, but I knew she was the real deal. Okay? And she sat me down and she said, “Catherine, I really feel the Lord is saying for the next two weeks, just spend 45 minutes and just sit there listening to worship music and resting.” And I knew it was God. So, I obeyed. But it was hell because everything in me wanted to get up. Because I felt like I was born behind. Like the best I could do is strive to fall behind at a slower rate. And so, this had to be a process where the Lord led me into rest because I switched where I was overdriving from medicine, to my family, and then to ministry. And he really had to work it out me. And in some ways very gently and some ways just pulling me up short. And he had me on a kind of, on a shelf for a while because he really needed to make it about me and him. And so, it felt like in my flesh, we’ll say, it felt like sort of rejection and being sidelined and all that. And it was. No, it was because he loves me so much and he loves all of us so much that he wants nothing to have us except him first. And then out of that place we get everything because we’re starting from him as the source. Anthony:  Yeah. Catherine: And so, he refuses to allow us to stay in the place that he did. Now, practically I got a lot of coaching. I did multiple ministries to help recover because there was very serious abuse in my past, and I really needed a lot of help. God will lead you into what you need, but a lot of times there have been periods where it’s been very quiet and I’ve had to find my satisfaction, my worth and value, my significance in him and his adoration and how he sees me. And it’s amazing. I love to talk to God because he always has something good to say. It’s really amazing, even in correction, he has something good to say because he refuses to leave us alone because of how he sees us and our intrinsic worth and value in his sight. [00:12:12] Anthony: He is so good. Yes, you did it. It’s in him. It’s resting in him and knowing there’s never a point that we get to and say, oh, God is good, but this is the cap of it. He doesn’t go any further. We never find the depths of his goodness. And to rest in that is a very freeing, liberating thing. So, let’s be liberated by God through the Scriptures. That’s why we’re here. So, let’s turn our attention to the first pericope of the month. It’s John 20:1–18. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Resurrection of Our Lord, Easter Sunday, April 5, and it reads: Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” 3 Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb. 4 The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the cloth that had been on Jesus’s head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed, 9 for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples returned to their homes. 11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb, 12 and she saw two angels in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni!” (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not touch me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and she told them that he had said these things to her. So, Catherine, if you were sitting having coffee or tea or whatever you enjoy drinking with a dear friend who’s unsure about God’s love for them, and you had this text open, what would you say from the text? And it’s just an opportunity to herald some good news. [00:15:34] Catherine: Yeah. Thank you. There are multiple things in here that are going on. When you look at the “characters” in the story and marrying the story and the other disciples, they are traumatized. And it’s interesting because Jesus had mentioned his resurrection coming multiple. I need to, I will die, I will be resurrected. We can only receive to a certain point. So, he had prepared and they were yet not fully prepared. And so, this is what they come to and she sees this tomb. And when you think of it, you think of the places that have represented death in our own lives, right? Loss in our own lives. And I love the way there is such a tender ministry that’s going on that starts with the angel, starts with the angelic, and they have the perspective of Jesus, the Christ as he is resurrected. And so, meeting us in our humanity, we’re weeping because all we see is loss. Everything I put my hopes, my life, everything that was good died in that tomb. And died on the cross rather, and was put in that tomb. And then to have the humiliation of that body being taken away, all of that. She is traumatized. And so, the angelic meets her with this question, why are you weeping? And it seems so obvious, right? I’ve lost; we’ve lost Jesus. They’ve taken away my … we don’t even have his body. It’s been desecrated. And then very personally, Jesus meets her in her trauma and there’s no condemnation. But there’s that question, why are you weeping? He’s asking her like, duh, okay. In our place of weeping, there is a limited perspective. And then he adds what the angels didn’t. Whom are you looking for? And so, she’s looking for her Lord that she thinks is dead. She’s looking for the body. And he’s veiled to her. And in so many places, God is veiled to us in our weeping, right? He’s with us in our weeping, he weeps when we weep, right? It’s very tender. But he’s also bringing us in the place of something bigger going on that will dry all those tears. And the thing that prompted the veil off her eyes to be lifted, is when this beautiful God who is meeting her right where she’s at, with no condemnation, says her name. And there’s something about our God saying our name to us, we are known. And that’s when she was able to recognize the one she loved, right? That was when she was able to see the teacher. But the one that she had followed and based her whole life off of. And he reveals something so tender to her in this, do not touch me because I’ve not yet ascended to the Father. This is revelation. Wow, you’re going back to the Father. And I love this. I’m ascending to my Father and your Father. [00:19:46] Anthony: Amen. [00:19:46] Catherine: That he accepts you are not an orphan. I may physically be leaving, but you’re one, you’re accepted and it’s personal to my God and your God. You know the humility of that with Jesus saying Father is my God and he’s your God. We are included in the fullness of his relationship with his Father in the Holy Spirit. And so, this did something to her soul, that she was able to be the apostle to the apostles and proclaim the risen Christ. And because her heart was, she could see it now and she didn’t need to weep. And what does that mean to us personally? Number one, he knows our name. And says our name tenderly and draws us up out of our limited perspective to see that we had everything in him as the risen Christ and that we are one with our Father, one with him, one in the Holy Spirit. We have all things and everything that maybe was destroyed, a loved one dying, or whatever was lost, is all bound up in him. He loses nothing. Every fragment of our souls that feel shattered, he’s got them and he knows how to bring it together. Because if he can be the resurrected Christ coming from where he came from, he can resurrect things in our lives that seem hopelessly broken and lost. [00:21:40] Anthony: That’ll preach on Easter Sunday for sure. Thank you. It strikes me that this had to be a day of extreme highs and deep lows for Mary. So, let’s spiritually imagine for a moment what this Jesus meant to her. You’ve alluded to it, but tell us more. [00:21:59] Catherine: Yeah. Her very world hinged on him. This is why it was so traumatic, because her whole world hinged on this one that she knew as Messiah, and it is mind blowing to imagine him being taken away, but much less with crucifixion and everything that she actually witnessed. And so, everything in her world hinged on this one, and it made no sense. She was with him to witness all of these things. And so, if Jesus is your everything and there’s a revelation of him that she didn’t know, and honestly, we don’t know. We’re all growing in wisdom and revelation that our whole being, the whole cosmos, everything that matters is connected to, is upheld by this one. And so, you go from this complete desolation, you go from — it’s amazing the amount of trauma that these disciples did — and the ones that particularly could handle it and stayed faithful with him in this process and witnessed the whole thing, but not understanding the other side. But this is — their everything was in context of Jesus. And so, for him to be resurrected means that everything, all things are possible. Truly all things are possible. What is impossible? That God is faithful being himself, but not violating anything in his own ministry. Because he said, “I give you a new commandment, that you love as I love.” And so, his being willing to bow down to human rage and bow down to death, and bow down to all these things so that he could consume it in himself, on our behalf and be resurrected and resurrecting us with him. Of course, she didn’t have that revelation yet, but this was everything. She had a revelation of something that is so huge, that yes, this is the one, this is the one we’ve set all our hopes in. We put all our eggs in the Jesus basket, right in the issue with the basket. And he did not fail us. [00:25:00] Anthony: No ma’am. Grace was lavished on us and he took us with him. Oh, it’s such a …. For me, Easter Sunday, it’s like this wonderful time to proclaim the good news, but it’s also can be a, like, how do you say it all? Like, how do you encapsulate what has transpired here? It’s so awesome. But it’s my prayer that as we come together as brothers and sisters in Christ and hear this word proclaimed, we will be once again filled with awe and wonder of this amazing God revealed in Jesus. Amen and amen. [00:25:39] Catherine: Amen. [00:25:44] Anthony: This transition to our next Bible passage of the month, it’s John 20:19–31. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday of Easter, April 12. Catherine, would you read it for us, please? [00:25:57] Catherine: I would be so delighted to do that. When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”24 But Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.” 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name. [00:28:33] Anthony: Hallelujah. I like the way you intentionally said peace be with you. Catherine: Yeah. Anthony: What a glorious declaration from the risen Lord Jesus to his friends. And like humanity sometimes paralyzed with fear. How might that be good news today? [00:28:53] Catherine: Yeah. We as human beings, we suffer with so much fear and we couch it with a lot of different verbiage: anxiety, trauma. Sometimes we couch it as like concern or anxiety, but at the end of the day, it is fear. And fear says it’s not going to be okay. I’m not going to be okay. There will be loss. Ultimately, Hebrews says, it’s fear of death and Jesus overcame death. And as the risen Christ, he can speak unto us, “Peace be with you.” And there is an empowerment. This is not something that we have to jockey up our faith to apprehend peace. It’s what we get out of our communion with the One who is the Prince of Peace. He causes us to transcend the issues, the torments, the anxieties, the pain, the confusion, the uncertainty, the feeling that we’re not in control. And honestly, control is an illusion anyway. Anthony: Amen. Catherine: Right? And so how can we be peaceful when we don’t have control? Because it was never up to us. It is from our place of our oneness and our union with this God who transcended death, who transcended sin, who transcended everything in order to grab hold of humanity and pull us out of darkness and meet us in the places where subjectively we’re experiencing all of that, we have the objective truth of what was accomplished on the cross, a death, burial, and resurrection. And then we have the subjective truth of where we meet him, where he meets us in our felt life. And so, the beautiful thing is that there’s always a place to go. And when I’m struggling with something, I have this thing that I’ll walk around and I’ll think of something like that would create anxiety and I literally say out my mouth, this is funny, but it works for me. Nobody panic. Okay, there’s no one there but me, my Father, Son, and Spirit, right? We’re all one. They’re not panicking. So clearly, it’s me, but it helps me apprehend my haywire mind and what’s going on in my emotions so that I can go inside and connect with the one who is my peace. Because one way or the other it is going to be okay. If somehow Jesus wasn’t this masterful Savior, if somehow, he wasn’t able to redeem all things and hold all things in himself then we might have a justifiable reason to be anxious, to be fearful. And life happens. There are things that will squash you. It is a thing. But in that, he causes us to transcend as he transcended, because we are one with this One who carries peace. And so, this is peace beyond our comprehension, beyond our ability to understand. Because I don’t know how it’s all going to work out. But one way or the other, it’s going to be okay. One way or the other, it’s going to be good because we’re journeying in this with this God who says, “My peace I give to you.” “Peace be with you.” And we can commune in this place of peace so that somehow, we’re able to navigate whatever comes before us, and then we’re able to give out of that place. So, when people are freaking out and there is a lot of freak out, yeah, we’re able to minister that which is inside us because we’re carriers of Christ who is our peace. And that also allows us to come up with creative solutions to the problems that comes up because our mind’s not so haywire. Yeah. [00:33:31] Anthony: Yeah, for sure. It’s when he says peace be with you. He can do that with integrity because peace is embodied. Peace has a name. His name is Jesus. And I’m with you. And I love that. I often call this upper room the panic room, and he enters as the unanxious presence in the room. And sometimes I think we think we want God to be just as fired up or as, just as …. No, I want God to be the One who holds the beginning from the end and is unanxious. And as I keep my eyes fixed on him, my anxiety begins to dissipate because he’s, as you said, he’s not freaking out. He’s the Lord. And he actually, even though I wouldn’t say God is in control, because we just have such a fallen understanding of control. He does have everything in his hand. Catherine: Yeah. Anthony: And he’s okay. And that’s such good news in an age of outrage. You mentioned Catherine, that there is an objective and subjective perspective. And I think that’s really helpful when reading Scripture, and maybe that will help frame this next question. What does it mean as it says in verse 22 to receive the Holy Spirit? [00:34:50] Catherine: I love that question and you totally set me up, so this is great. [00:34:54] Anthony: Good. Go for it. [00:34:56] Catherine: What a generous host. So objectively, right? We’re all in Christ. Christ is in us. God is omnipresent. So that means where is God not present? Where is his Spirit not present? “If I make my bed in the midst of Sheol, you are there.” And we make a lot of beds in Sheol. Just a thing in our mind and just in our experience, not “our fault,” but just a fallen world. And so where is this Spirit? And so, if the Spirit is in Sheol and in him, we live and move and have our being, okay? To be, is to be in Christ in the Spirit. So, it’s not like Jesus, the Spirit wasn’t there, and then suddenly, Poof! Spirit’s there. Holy Spirit is that called the modesty of God, does not point to himself, but points to Christ. Anthony: Yes. Catherine: But he moves and he’s in us. I remember growing up, I was not raised in a Christian home. I didn’t say those sinner’s prayer until 27. Okay? But I had massive encounters with the Lord that literally saved my sanity in areas that were very … I knew God. Now there was a lot to that story and I don’t want to go haywire with it, but I knew God and he knew me. I knew he loved me. And I loved him. And that was pretty much my theology, which is actually dang good theology right there. And that’s what I needed to survive a traumatic childhood, right? [00:36:46] Anthony: Yeah. [00:36:47] Catherine: And in order this thought that somehow, like I say, the magic prayer and the Spirit just pops inside now. And I didn’t know? Of course, I knew him before, but this is an awakening. Like Mary, when she couldn’t see the embodied Christ before, the incarnate Christ before her until the veil was lifted. We don’t always recognize the Spirit that dwells in us, that inhabits us, that in him, we live and move and have our being until that’s unveiled. So, we’re talking about an objective reality and objective truth that Holy Spirit is everywhere. And in us. I remember when I was … I got through a period of God I was so angry with God because everything in my life fell apart. And I was just like, “I don’t want to hear from you.” “I don’t want to see you.” And he was like, “Okay, Catherine, I understand,” but he wouldn’t leave me. And so even when it was giving him the flying fingers. “That’s okay, babe. When you’re ready, you’ll come around.” He’s so patient. I have a chapter in my book called Annoying Relentless Love, because he would not leave me alone. Okay. This is the God that you can’t shake even if you want to, because we are one with him. But this is our issue as human beings, that we are veiled. We don’t experience. We experience things over time. Things are unveiled to us. And this, any sense of separation is in our minds. We’re alienated in our minds. And this is God, healing our minds, healing our ability to see what already is, because the breath of God, the ruach of God was with us in the very beginning. When you talk about Genesis and Adam and Eve walked with him in the cool of the day. Adam walked with him in the cool of, he walked in …  the ruach is “cool of the day.” We were walking in the Spirit. You can’t shake him, but we need to wake up to him. In Galatians 1, it talks about, Paul was talking about how he had been set apart from his mother’s womb and called by his grace, “was pleased to reveal his Son in me.” Did the Holy Spirit suddenly hop in there? No. It was a revelation, a revealing and unveiling of the Spirit already present. And in this thing — so it wasn’t that Jesus was going to give them this theological thing — “so let me just, guys, let me just help you here. Holy Spirit’s already here.” He didn’t do that. He did something practical. I love God for so many reasons, but I love the way he moves practically. We need sacrament, we need laying on of hands. We need Jesus to breathe on us. We need something so that we can apprehend what is already true and live in it. [00:40:06] Anthony: No, that’s so good. The sacraments, that which physically makes manifest the unseen reality of what is true and that. That the lights would come on in our minds, and it would reach our hearts. This is, oh, we could spend days talking about this, that God has objectively made it so. May we receive what is already ours. In essence, receive what is already ours in Christ. Amen and amen. All right, our next text is Luke 24:13–35. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday of Easter, April 19. And it reads: Now on that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, 14 and talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus himself came near and went with them, 16 but their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 And he said to them, “What are you discussing with each other while you walk along?” They stood still, looking sad. 18 Then one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only stranger in Jerusalem who does not know the things that have taken place there in these days?” 19 He asked them, “What things?” They replied, “The things about Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things took place. 22 Moreover, some women of our group astounded us. They were at the tomb early this morning, 23 and when they did not find his body there they came back and told us that they had indeed seen a vision of angels who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see him.” 25 Then he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have declared! 26 Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things about himself in all the scriptures. 28 As they came near the village to which they were going, he walked ahead as if he were going on. 29 But they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, because it is almost evening and the day is now nearly over.” So he went in to stay with them. 30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and he vanished from their sight. 32 They said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he was talking to us on the road, while he was opening the scriptures to us?” 33 That same hour they got up and returned to Jerusalem, and they found the eleven and their companions gathered together. 34 They were saying, “The Lord has risen indeed, and he has appeared to Simon!” 35 Then they told what had happened on the road and how he had been made known to them in the breaking of the bread. Catherine, what would you want our audience to know about this road to Emmaus experience? [00:43:35] Catherine: I think that we all are on our own roads to Emmaus they’re things … [00:43:43] Anthony: Come on. [00:43:44] Catherine: … that as we’re journeying with the Christ, that we are not seeing him, that once again, our eyes are shut. I think there’s a little bit of a theme going on. And I love his … I just think it’s so adorable that he chastises in this sweet way. “Oh, how foolish you are and slow of heart to believe all the prophets have declared ….” Who cannot find themselves in this verse? Anthony: Sure. Catherine: And in that place, though, he’s still delighted in us. He still adores us, but he’s diagnosing as the great physician. Yeah, we’re foolish. “The fool in his heart says there is no God.” There are these places in us that aren’t getting it yet, and sometimes our hearts are just slow. We’re dumber than rocks, and but … [00:44:40] Anthony: Speak for yourself. [00:44:41] Catherine: Yes, I’m speaking for myself but we’re adored. I remember one time I was so frustrated because I was trying to understand, I think it was this rest thing and I was so frustrated and I was like. “God, I just can’t get this. I’m just so clueless.” And I heard the Lord as clear as day. He goes, “Catherine, you’re so adorable when you’re clueless.” And I really feel his compassion to meet us where we’re clueless, where we’re foolish and enlighten us, right? Walk with us on this road and start to unveil things to us. And I love the fact that in this very relational passage, because God is always relational, he acted as if he was going on and then they had to ask, “Stay with us.” And in this place where it’s not like God goes anywhere, but there are times when we need to turn our affection to us and pull him in. And that is what causes our hearts to be more receptive. And so, as he continued to commune with them in very practical things — they were eating a meal. And ding to ding. Wow! It was when he broke the bread and blessed it and gave it to them, that their eyes were opened. And this is me. I am the bread. I am the one, the night before in the upper room, I broke the bread with you. I drank the wine of the new covenant. This is you and me, and I’m revealing myself in this sacrament once again. And this is why he tells us, do this in remembrance, that we need to remember. We need to piece it together in our beings. And then what I love about this, it says, were not our hearts burning as we’re engaging with God and walking with him on our Emmaus roads. He brings things in our hearts that start to burn. And as we commune with him, he opens our eyes to see more of who he is, more of who Father God, Holy Spirit are, more of who we are in him and what that means for us as we’re walking out our daily lives. [00:47:04] Anthony: You’ve already alluded to this, but I’d love for you to say more about this affection of inviting God to stay with us. That’s what the brothers asked for. Tell us more about this. [00:47:18] Catherine: It’s interesting. We are, as human beings — I’ll speak for myself again — easily distracted. Anthony: What? Catherine: Easily squirrelled. Easily pulled away. Our affections drawn to the next shiny thing, or distracted by our pain, distracted by the fear we have, distracted by the lack or something that’s in front of us, distracted by just human suffering. And in that place, we can shut off really easily and just switch into this mode where we’re trying to figure out the problems, work out our plan, come up with solutions, figure it out, what do we need to do? And this place of communion is where we receive all things. As you remain in me and I in you. Apart from me, you can do no dang thing. That’s a capital advice, standard vision, right? Anthony: Yes. Catherine: There’s nothing we can do. So, why are we distracted way out here trying to find a solution as if it’s out there. When the one that we’re one with holds all things. He is our wisdom. He is our healing, deliverance, sanctification, protection, wisdom, guidance, provision, pick a card and healing, right? Pick a card. And so, this place of pulling on him, we don’t need to convince him to be good. Good is just who he is. We’re stuck with good. Anthony: Yes. Catherine: But in the “stay with us,” it’s a pull on him to reveal himself in a fresh way, which requires us to turn away from all of these ways of being that are so distracted and so fragmented and maybe closed off. And in a way we’re inviting him in deeper communion. We have to understand that God is relational and he longs for communion with us. There are times when I’ll be ministering to people all day. I’ll be connecting with God really well, and I’ll put my little head on the table and it has just been straight up flat running all day. And I’ll say, “Jesus, I just didn’t spend 15 minutes with you personally for me. I’m so sorry.” And you know what he said to me? He goes, “Catherine, I’m just so glad that you’re doing it now.” No condemnation. No, “You didn’t. Can you not spend an hour with me?” I woke up and sprung out of bed, but this is the longing of his heart, and he’s so gracious. And when we make that turning of our affection, he reveals himself more and more. And so, part of this is are the disciplines of lingering with God, quieting ourselves down. And as you said, the sacraments help us do that, right? And so, this is where he reveals himself to us in the ways that we need it. [00:50:27] Anthony: A previous surgeon general of the US said that one of the greatest health issues that we have in these United States is loneliness. And the solution is community, which is communion. And I just, when I think of stay with us and abiding and remaining, yes, there’s this very personal, never private, but very personal relationship that we have with the Lord. But one of the great ways that we experience that relationship is with others, and even lingering with others, reveals something about the goodness of God. We need one another. And thanks be to God that he refuses to be God without us. He goes with us. He stays with us. Amen. And amen. We’re into the home stretch. We’ll pivot to our final pericope of the month. It’s John 10:1–10. It is Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday of Easter, April 26. Catherine, do the honors for us please. [00:51:36] Catherine: I would love to. “Very truly, I tell you, anyone who does not enter the sheepfold by the gate but climbs in by another way is a thief and a bandit. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 They will not follow a stranger, but they will run from him because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. 7 So again Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and bandits, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. [00:53:03] Anthony: Whew. That’s some good news. Catherine: Yes. Anthony: He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And I’m thinking back to our previous passage of Jesus saying, “Mary.” And leading her out of her distress and grief. Hallelujah. [00:53:20] Catherine: Yeah. [00:53:20] Anthony: So, I’m going to invite you to contrast the shepherd and the thief. [00:53:25] Catherine: Yeah. [00:53:26] Anthony: The contrast is distinctive and it’s real. But I’m curious, in what ways might we, I don’t know, unwittingly walk in step with a thief instead of the good shepherd. [00:53:37] Catherine: Yeah. And I think this is part of our malady, right? When we operate from a place of separation — the Word says that we’re alienated in our minds — and there are places in our minds that are truly broken, right? Our minds, our wills, our emotions, and in those places we can want what is destructive and reject what is life-giving. And so, God has this ministry that he does in us in healing this, healing our will, so we want what is good. We don’t want the thief. A thief steals, right? A thief kills. A thief destroys. A thief is after what they can get at the expense of the sheep, … Anthony: Come on. Catherine: … at the expense of us. And the Good Shepherd is there for our wellbeing. He’s the one who loves us in our denseness. He loves us in our brilliance. He loves us on our good hair days, our bad hair days, our good behavior days, our crappy behavior days. He is wild about us and he’s not leaving us. He’s the gate through which we experience everything that is already ours in him. So, we have intrinsic ownership to everything restored to us in Christ. And so, we’re not having to convince God to be good, to be gracious, to meet our needs and the desires of our hearts. God is personal and God is universal. He calls us by name and attunes us to his voice. And so, this is the voice from the inside out that our hearts start to resonate with as the fog starts to lift. As we start to be able to recognize that thing that I thought would bring me life is an idol, is a thief that will sap life from me, and I can start to listen to the voice of the one who loved me and gave him himself up for me and follow that voice personally as he leads me out in wholeness, right? The religious voices, which were the thieves. This, the context of this is the voices of religion. The people that came, the people that were false, that were posers, that were liars, condemners, and thieves. Christ is the entry point for an objective and subjective relationship with Trinity, where all life, light, truth, and love dwell, right? Where peace dwells. Religion is like plastic fruit at best, right? It promises something. It may look good, but it destroys. There’s death in it. It steals. It’s deadly at worst. And so, this is why God hates that spirit of religion, because it harms his sheep, right? So, as we partake of Christ in all things, we partake of everything according to life and godliness and the divine nature, which is ours by partaking of him. And we can do that in abundance because we’re following the shepherd that we can trust with everything that we are. [00:57:12] Anthony: And I think that’s one of the reasons John the Apostle in his gospel account repeatedly talks about belief, which is translated trust. Just trust me. I am good. I am for you. I am the good shepherd. And guess what? I came, to give you life. Matter of fact, I am your life. And in me you have abundance. So, as we close our time together, Catherine, I want to give you an opportunity to simply riff on this gospel declaration. Let’s hear some good news. Preach, preacher. [00:57:45] Catherine: Yay. Jesus said that I have come, I came. This is past tense, that you may have life and have it abundantly. So, God is life. You are one with the Person who is life. He. Is your life. And a little dab doesn’t do. He’s abundant in all his goodness and what he brings to us. And the more we partake of him, the more we partake of his gracious nature, the happier he is. He wanted us to eat the entire lamb. He wanted, wants us to feed off of him. He is our source. He is the vine. We’re the branches. This is where we get to suck his goodness, partake of his goodness and fullness so that everything comes to life. What looks like it was dead is deceitful. Okay. Because the God of life is there in abundance and he also, he not only promises that, but he empowers what he promises, our ability to connect with that in a subjective thing that we just, if you’re not seeing it, just go deeper. Just go deeper. Just go deeper, because that’s where this God of life is unstoppable. He is redeeming all things. He’s a God of abundance. He said all that he has is ours. All that he has is ours as Christ in this world. Co-heirs — that means equal heirs. This is mind-blowing stuff, but this is what the God who loved us and gave himself up for us supplies in abundance so that we get to partake and grow in life. And it is an eternal thing that cannot be taken away from us. [00:59:47] Anthony: The thief speaks scarcity. The good shepherd speaks life and life abundantly. Hallelujah. Praise God. I want to, as we close up our episode, want to refer back to our good friend and uncle Karl Barth, who said this, “Christ accomplishes the reality of our reconciliation with God, not its possibility.” So, in the reality of that objective truth, let’s live a reconciled life with our neighbors, our family, our friends, the church itself. It’s such a good life that God has given us. Catherine, I am so grateful that you joined us. You are a beloved daughter of the living God, precious in his sight. I know you know this, but may those words wash over you again. Thank you for being with us, and I want to thank our team that makes this podcast possible. Michelle Hartman, Elizabeth Mullins, Reuel Enerio. What a wonderful team to work with, and this is our tradition here at Gospel Reverb, we like to close with the word of prayer. So, Catherine, would you pray for us and with us? [01:00:48] Catherine: Yes, absolutely. Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, I thank you that you are God, that you are Trinity that adores us as your children, and we can receive your adoration in response and respond to that and adore you back, that we can live this life of fullness, this life of abundance, this life that has life multiplied over and over. Enlighten the eyes of our understanding so that we do know the hope of your calling in you, the glories of the riches of the inheritance in us and us as your inheritance and your mighty endless power towards us, that you are the God that doesn’t just promise, but fulfills promise, and allows us to partake of all things in you. And I thank you for blessing the eyes, blessing the ears, blessing the hearts of all of those that are listening to this podcast, that we can receive you in a fresh way. We can receive your goodness and the delight you have over us, and the fullness of what was accomplished and the hope and the peace you bring, and the vibrancy of life, so that our lives are literally being transformed and we are being transfigured from glory to glory in your image. And we thank you for that and we praise you for that. In Jesus’ name, amen. [01:02:32] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!The post Catherine Toon—Year A Easter 1–4 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Chris Breslin—Year A Lent 2–5 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Reverend Chris Breslin. Chris is the founding pastor of Oak Church in Durham, North Carolina. He earned a Master’s of Divinity from Duke Divinity School where he teaches or serves as a precept teaching assistant. He works to keep the church small, local, and weird. Chris, thanks for being with us. Welcome back to the podcast. It’s been a few years, so we would like to have our memories refreshed about you, your story, and especially what has you experiencing delight these days. [00:01:27] Chris: Thanks Anthony. It’s so good to be with you and thankfully it hasn’t been a few years since I’ve seen you in person. [00:01:34] Anthony: That’s right. [00:01:36] Chris: Yeah, in terms of things that are giving me delight these days. This is the in-between time when we’re taping this, and so we are getting ready for a baseball season ahead. I coach two of my sons. I am hand copying Matthew’s gospel as I work in a New Testament class. And this is a practice commended to me by a friend, JR Briggs. And it’s amazing how much more you soak in familiar words when you have to slow down enough to faithfully copy them. Also gives you some respect for earlier manuscript scribes. And listening to records. I know if I’m, like, in a good place and joyful and healthy if I’m listening to music and not just podcasts. And especially if I’m listening in a way that I have to get up and flip the record every 20 minutes or whatever. So, I’m listening to Bob Dylan’s biography … Anthony: Oh, come on. Chris: … that I found at a thrift store in awesome shape. I’m listening to MJ Linderman. I’m on the Train, big indie record from last year; Getting Killed by Geese. Loving that. The band is Geese. The record is Getting Killed. So Getting Killed by Geese. Anthony: I love it. Chris: And Mavis Staples has an awesome covers record. Just awesome, beautiful stuff. So those are giving me delight right now. [00:03:25] Anthony: As you write down Matthew, what’s been maybe the epiphany that you’ve had as you’ve been doing this? [00:03:36] Chris: Yeah. It’s interesting doing it along teaching. I’m working with Professor Brittany Wilson in an interpretation of New Testament hybrid course, and so you’re reteaching kind of themes of the gospel, but to do it slow and to realize man, this teaching, Jesus as teacher, Jesus as new Moses is such a theme. And when you get into handwriting Matthew 5, 6, 7, you realize, man, this is a really long discourse and rich and beautiful, but just again, the practice is a little bit of an antidote to skimming or just grabbing little aphorisms or chunks. And so, it really does re-immerse you in some beautiful words. [00:04:37] Anthony: We know each other, we’re friends, which I’m very grateful for you and especially your guidance as I’ve been in the throes of planting a church. And one of the things I’ve heard you talk about is seeing the church stay small, local, and weird. What does that mean and why does it matter so much to you? [00:04:58] Chris: Those might be threatening words to a church planner who’s trying to grow a church. But yeah. This just became shorthand around Oak Church, where I serve. In some ways, it’s a little bit of a bar to see if people are on the same wavelength or have like consonant expectations, small, local, and weird. Some people are like, I’m out. But I think they also represent the positive side of some key temptations to resist and overcome. Speed and scale and distance and control are all things that happen with corporate franchise restaurants, but in my opinion, not really like the body of Christ, faith communities, and real places with neighbors. I don’t know. I always think it’s good to have little handles to remind us, little watch words that there are no shortcuts or magic bullets. And for us it’s been so important in our ministry that we don’t need to go somewhere else to experience God’s presence and God’s grace. And you’re in an early phase of forming a faith community, but I think there can be some temptation to think when things are scrappy and ragged, especially at the beginning, that you’re like not there yet and we need to smooth out difference in some of the marks of our creatureliness and some of the things that are actually gifts to us — that they’re actually good, that differences are a fruit of Pentecost and the way the Spirit is still working with us. That’s the weird part. Yeah, it’s been interesting working in this New Testament course and especially examining Paul as a pastor and I think that’s made me more deeply committed to this idea, like all of these communities that we have these extant letters are small communities, sometimes small enough, where a whole congregation is assembled in a, like, some supporter’s home. I know this is a novel idea for you, Anthony. Each of these churches is named, not with like slick branding or like aspirational wish dream language, but just where they are. And each of them, each of these letters is like Paul reflecting on challenges and griefs and quirks and joys and thanksgiving for these people. I think Pastor Paul is not wishing them out of these situations, but it’s pastoring them in and through them, and expressing tenderness and care and pride. And those are things that I that I aspire to and we share that ministry here. [00:08:16] Anthony: Yeah. No, you’ve been quite helpful to me in that regard, just reminding me of the smallness and the slowness of developing a faith community. As I read the parables of the kingdom. It just seems to me that it’s slow, but it’s really good work. And God is faithful and I’m wired in such a way that I do want to sometimes jump ahead and smooth out the rough patches. And this is a good reminder that God is at work. And sometimes you go to sleep and you wake up and things grow and you don’t know how or why it happened, but it happens. So, I really do appreciate that. Let’s dive into our lectionary text. That’s why we’re here. We have four passages that we’re going to look at this month. Our first passage of the month is John 3:1–17. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday in Lent / Easter Preparation, March 1. Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2 He came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with that person.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 “Very truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know and testify to what we have seen, yet you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. 17 “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. So Chris, how would you herald the gospel if you were preaching this text to your congregation? [00:11:41] Chris: I’m really struck by this scene because it features someone in Nicodemus that is so serious and also in some ways so staked to the status quo, but also is courageous and humble enough to ask Jesus to reveal something new to him. Just think these days it can be really distressing. Maybe you feel this to live in a world, in a media environment where two people can. Receive the same data or receive the same video or hear the same words and interpret those things like drastically differently. And sometimes in host hostile opposition. And this happens in our church community. Sometimes it’s happening around them and inside them. Putting aside for a second that we’re that we’re all sinful and our vision and our hearing are in some ways, like provisional, still seems like there’s always a subset of folks who can and want to see and hear with clarity. There’s a subset who can’t maybe yet, and there’s a subset who won’t or don’t want to. And so, I think this is remarkable on a human level: the curiosity and the courage of Nicodemus here. Although he does meet at night with some level of concealment and caution. Anthony: Sure, sure. Chris: And also the patience and the creativity of Jesus in his response. So, that’s the lens I’m approaching this with. This is a fascinating scene of Jesus encountering someone who can’t see but wants to. Jesus, Flannery says, draws large and startling images, like the image, the main image, being born again. But he doesn’t quite shout at Nicodemus here. Jesus is complicating. Nicodemus is closed, too small vision in the world, but also opening up a window so that he can begin to feel how the Spirit is blowing, where it comes or where it goes, you know. So, it seems like Jesus is like loosening Nicodemus’ grip, his control. We talked about a minute ago in likening the coming of God’s kingdom and Nicodemus’ participation in it as passing through a birth canal. This is so scandalous. I’m in a season of life where this seems like every two months is another kid coming up on the talk, and so, dropping birth canal language is — I’m sure that’s not what Nicodemus assumed was he was getting himself into, right? [00:14:52] Anthony: Yeah. [00:14:52] Chris: Like I also I wonder if there’s a little bit of a parallel, not directly, but this strikes me a little bit like the story of the rich young ruler and that story doesn’t show up in John’s gospel. All Nicodemus wanted was something to do, some takeaway, something to achieve, conquer, progress, know that he was right. And all Jesus gives him is an invitation to do less, to give it away, to take his hands off, to gain an innocence that is only able to receive from God like a newborn baby. And the last thing I notice is that Jesus is fleshing out God’s word. And this is like the theme of John’s gospel, right? The Word made flesh. [00:15:50] Anthony: Yeah. [00:15:51] Chris: But the Word in our translations at the end in famous, like, stadium rainbow wig verse John 3:16, the Word is doing so much work. Most of my life, I considered that like a quantitative statement like, God loves the world so much, which of course is true that he would give his only Son. And maybe that, so muchness has some connections to certain ideas about atonement and, like, mismatch, and what God gives, and what we have. But what if that so is also like qualitative, like God loves the world, just so. You know, just so. God loves the world by entering into it. The way God loves the world is by giving his Son. The gift of Jesus is a gift of God’s own presence and God’s unbreakable decision to have skin in our game. Those are some of the things that jump out. [00:17:09] Anthony: Yeah, you just reminded me. We have a mutual friend who likes to say God didn’t just write us a letter, he paid us a visit. And I like the way you said it, that he has skin in the game. You’d mentioned how two people could read the same social media post or watch the same video and come to polar opposite positions. And in that often what is people condemning one another, that there’s such disdain for the other position that we condemn. But God, as we read in verse 17, did not send this Son who he loved and so loved the world into the world to condemn it. And it gets me thinking if Jesus wasn’t sent to condemn, I’m pretty sure we’re not called to do that either. And yet, we just have this enormous capacity to do that, to condemn one another. Can you talk about it? What’s the way forward in this roux that we’re finding ourselves swimming in at this constant condemnation of one another? [00:18:27] Chris: Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know that I can speak generally, but when I feel most condemning of other people, that’s when I’m most insecure or when I feel most out of control or when it seems like, if I don’t lock this down, there’s not going to be enough. I love that Nicodemus seeks out Jesus and gets this message of non-condemnation. I imagine him, Nicodemus, like, being glad that it’s at night so that Jesus can’t see him like writhing in his chair. But what if this verse is true? I think it is. Like, what if God’s capital “YES” is so pronounced in our world that any “no” is lowercase and like only makes sense in light of God’s love and care and provision. Like, we don’t get that much about Nicodemus’ response or what happened after this encounter. Like the rich young rulers, he went away sad and we’re not really sure where that sadness is located or aimed. But we do get a story of Joseph, or of Nicodemus popping up later in the gospel alongside Joseph of Arimathea to help bury Jesus in John 19. I think that’s like profoundly telling, that Jesus has this imaginative, non-condemning encounter with Nicodemus, and then somewhere along the line that turns him into a follower of Jesus, in the sort of person who used to only sidle up to Jesus in the shadows and in whisper tones, and is now out there with tenderness and sorrow tending to the body of a lynched dissident, who for all intents and purposes lost, was pulverized, was erased by the state and the church. People don’t know the bad news about themselves. There’s no need for the good news. Take a look at Nicodemus’ life of slow, steady unspectacular discipleship and the way he grew as a disciple. It’s really remarkable. And it didn’t come from any condemnation of Jesus. [00:21:48] Anthony: Yeah. I love what you said. What if it’s true? Because it is, and I’m convinced of that, and the Lord has said yes. And so, any response back to the Lord as a yes is contained within his larger objective yes to us, that he so loved us, that he sent his Son. All right. Let’s transition to our next text of the month. It’s John 4:5–42. It’s a lengthy one, and so we have decided to spare you all of that reading. We’re going read a portion of that and then discuss it. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday in Lent / Easter preparation, which is March 8. Chris, would you read it for us, please? [00:22:10] Chris: Sure. So he came to a Samaritan city called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired out by his journey, was sitting by the well. It was about noon. 7 A Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” 8 (His disciples had gone to the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?” (Jews do not share things in common with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” 11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us the well and with his sons and his flocks drank from it?” 13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.” 15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come back.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true!” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You[g] worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When he comes, he will proclaim all things to us.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I am he, the one who is speaking to you.” 27 Just then his disciples came. They were astonished that he was speaking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you want?” or, “Why are you speaking with her?” 28 Then the woman left her water jar and went back to the city. She said to the people, 29 “Come and see a man who told me everything I have ever done! He cannot be the Messiah, can he?” 30 They left the city and were on their way to him. 31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, “Rabbi, eat something.” 32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33 So the disciples said to one another, “Surely no one has brought him something to eat?” 34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work. 35 Do you not say, ‘Four months more, then comes the harvest’? But I tell you, look around you, and see how the fields are ripe for harvesting. 36 The reaper is already receiving wages and is gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. 37 For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.” 39 Many Samaritans from that city believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I have ever done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. 41 And many more believed because of his word. 42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the Savior of the world.” [00:24:45] Anthony: This is the lengthiest continuous conversation Jesus has with anyone recorded in Scripture. It’s a woman, and not just any woman, but a Samaritan woman. Chris, what might this tell us about the God revealed in Jesus Christ? [00:25:07] Chris: Looking specifically at Jesus, sometimes it can be helpful to come up with kind of adjectives that are just like really particularly descriptive to the passage that you’re focusing on. And the two that I came up with were, this is the circuitous and exhausted Jesus. Okay. [00:25:30] Anthony: Tell us. [00:25:31] Chris: Yeah. I don’t think it is like a small detail that Jesus goes a really strange way along to go through Samaria in Sychar. One of the commentators, Dale Bruner, has a great John commentary, and he says, Jesus leaves “strategic Judea in Jerusalem in the south for a season away in seemingly less auspicious Samaria and Galilee in the north. Yet deep things happen in these externally out of the way, less impressive places. God is no more respecter of places than he is of persons. Wherever he is at work is a very significant place.” And so, Jesus going this circuitous way that doesn’t seem at all accidental — surprising but not accidental, right? Samaritans, from what I can gather, are shady because they are synchronistic, they’re pluralistic. There is a history here. They sort of worship God, but also keep some of their own worship practices alongside of that. They’re not like pure in like a religious purity kind of thought purity sort of way. I’m not sure there’s like a great analogy here, but I don’t know. I was trying to think what this could be like for a conservative Christian, someone who they might be like nervous and interfacing with — like maybe like a Mormon or a Rastafarian or like an indigenous American who like has some Christian thoughts and practice and worship, but also has a lot of other stuff going on, right? Maybe we can imagine as gaps widen in our world. Who is your theological outgroup, folks who are like a little bit exotic, but also a little bit dangerous, right? In some ways the theological commonalities of Jews and Samaritans are maybe more confusing in light of the theological and cultural differences. And so, Jesus, it seems, despite the past in this present, sidles up to this woman at the well. And there’s a history of wells in Scripture, and particularly this well. Abraham meets Rebecca at the well — that’s Isaac’s future wife. Hagar is met by an angel of the Lord at a desert spring of water, which is basically a well. And this is Jacob’s well. So, I think that’s hinting that this is like the middle of God’s unfolding story. And that’s happening in a kind of a strange place that Jesus purposes to be. So, the other word was exhausted. What the heck does it mean for a Christology that Jesus was exhausted? Anthony: Yes. Chris: And then the outpouring of that, like Jesus is exhausted. So, it seems like the disciples spring into action. They’re gone because they’re going to buy food to help him, and then he asks for help from someone who has no business helping him. Anthony: Yeah. Chris: Like, even if Jesus isn’t the Word made flesh, even if he’s just some random Jewish dude, like you shouldn’t be asking her for help. I also think like it’s an interesting contrast between this woman and our previous pericope with Nicodemus, like man, woman, Israelite, Pharisee, and a Samaritan, teacher, housewife, night. It says he met the woman at high noon, like in the middle of the day. Even how they respond. Like, Nicodemus refers to Jesus as teacher. She refers to Jesus as prophet and Messiah. This exhausted, out-of-the-way person. So, those are some of the things that I noticed. Those are some of the things that that I feel like I learn about the God revealed in Jesus from this story. [00:30:16] Anthony: I’ve had the privilege of worshiping with Oak Church, where you pastor, and one of the things I’ve appreciated about you, you have a narrative way of preaching, and I know you value imagination, that we would spiritually imagine what’s happening and contextualizing that to our world. I’m going to ask you to do the same here. We get brief insight on this woman’s testimony about Jesus, but what do you imagine she told her friends about Jesus and how she might’ve responded to this incredibly unexpected conversation? [00:31:00] Chris: Yeah. Start with what she said, “I know that Messiah’s coming. He will proclaim all things. Come. See. He told me everything I’ve ever done.” And then she says, “He can’t be the Messiah, can he?” Yeah. And then, this human-divine Jesus goes and eats something. And after that, the Samaritans ask Jesus to stay with them and he does. So, in the process of that hospitality and that intimacy more come to trust in Jesus, and I think this is all because of this incarnation ministry move of Jesus. Some initially trust what the woman said, but more were coming to trust in Jesus because of what he said, what they saw, and that he was with them. This again, like in light of the Nicodemus encounter, that idea that some can’t and some willfully won’t see in here, I think it’s remarkable that when Jesus comes close to these theological Creole folk, they are opened up and included in the very life of God. So, in a lot of ways her testimony is opening them up to an encounter and experience with Jesus. She is like an evangelist host. She makes room for these encounters to happen by her questions and by her proclamation, but also by her, like, invitation and introduction of them to Jesus. It’s really remarkable how her encounter and experience then gives way to all of these other encounters and experiences. [00:32:50] Anthony: And when the Spirit comes upon you, you will be my witnesses. Hallelujah. Alright, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s John 9:1–41. Again, because of the length, we’ll read just a portion of the text. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday in Easter Preparation, March 15. As he walked along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him. 4 We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” 6 When he had said this, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva and spread the mud on the man’s eyes, 7 saying to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). Then he went and washed and came back able to see. 8 The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar began to ask, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” 9 Some were saying, “It is he.” Others were saying, “No, but it is someone like him.” He kept saying, “I am he.” 10 But they kept asking him, “Then how were your eyes opened?” 11 He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud, spread it on my eyes, and said to me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ Then I went and washed and received my sight.” 12 They said to him, “Where is he?” He said, “I do not know.” 13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. 14 Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. 15 Then the Pharisees also began to ask him how he had received his sight. He said to them, “He put mud on my eyes. Then I washed, and now I see.” 16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not observe the Sabbath.” Others said, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And they were divided. 17 So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him? It was your eyes he opened.” He said, “He is a prophet.” 18 The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight 19 and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” 20 His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind, 21 but we do not know how it is that now he sees, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that anyone who confessed Jesus to be the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23 Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.” 24 So for the second time they called the man who had been blind, and they said to him, “Give glory to God! We know that this man is a sinner.” 25 He answered, “I do not know whether he is a sinner. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” 28 Then they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29 We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” 30 The man answered, “Here is an astonishing thing! You do not know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will. 32 Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” 34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you trying to teach us?” And they drove him out. 35 Jesus heard that they had driven him out, and when he found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered, “And who is he, sir? Tell me, so that I may believe in him.” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and the one speaking with you is he.” 38 He said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped him. 39 Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see may see and those who do see may become blind.” 40 Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this and said to him, “Surely we are not blind, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now that you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains. “I was blind. And now I see.” The religious leaders questioned who was to blame for the man being blind. No one was to be blamed. Was that type of blaming game isolated to that culture or do you see it at work today? And that’s like an understating question. And if so, how does this blame and shame game persist? And what is the solution? [00:36:34] Chris: Yeah. [00:36:37] Anthony: What do we do with that? [00:36:42] Chris: And can I say that it’s strangely heartening that, like this sort of stuff, we didn’t invent this sort of stuff or that it’s not that it happens in a analog culture, like you can totally imagine a confrontation like this in this like AI and social media, deep fake age, right, where there’s just so much suspicion and disputation of what is real. I think there are a couple of things happening. There’s the blame of it all. There’s an attempt at a simple answer to horrible suffering. It seems that Jesus’ disciples need to be “un-discipled” from these old ways of thinking. [00:37:37] Anthony: Well said. [00:37:38] Chris: Yeah. Matthew’s gospel has that formula. “You have heard it said, but I say to you” — this might be like a Johannine version of that. Jesus clears the way of old thinking off the table, a way that has no room for God’s presence and work, but only a zero-sum blame game of who screwed up. And Jesus resets the terms with just a more expansive, mysterious, complicated, and, like, theocentric, God-centered view of the world. They want an either / or. Jesus gives them a neither /and. I don’t know if that’s how that works. [00:38:21] Anthony: Yeah, I like that. [00:38:22] Chris: But I think the second thing that is happening is the encounter with the religious gatekeepers. This seems so social media coded to me. They are looking for a way to trap him. They want to get him to say something that can be clipped so that he can be disputed, dismissed, vilified, disqualified. Again, related to our theme of who can see and hear, those who can, and those who refuse to. If you already “know” that a man can’t be healed you just have a few options. Your options are like the disciples, to try to explain it, and blame for it, which that works. And that can be satisfying until that blame comes for you when something bad happens. Another option is you can deny it like the Pharisees attempt to, or then that like denial shifts as denial often does and then they begin to recognize that this “impossible skill” happened, in that it has dark causes; you vilify it. So, those seem to be the ways that blame is operating here and I think still operates more generally. [00:40:11] Anthony: Yeah. It seems to me when anything happens in our society, that’s the first question we often ask, “Who’s to blame?” We’ve got to be able to set it at somebody’s feet so we can understand what is happening. And I just love this guy’s response. His testimony is not to wrangle over theology. “I just know what happened to me. I can’t tell you much about this guy, but I was blind and now I see.” What can we learn from the witness of this man? [00:40:55] Chris: Yeah. Of all those previous options and the way that they’re wrestling with this upturning of the way things are, there’s this guy standing over to the side, and imagine him just like ogling at the colors and the shapes and the shadows and the faces and the details and the beauty that he never saw, but now can see. Anthony: Yeah Chris: Like, I think we learned that, like talking about and bandying about ideas of seeing and perceiving pale in comparison to the indisputable experience of a man who was encountered, who was touched, who was healed, who had things revealed to him. You circle back to the start of the passage, he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him. And Jesus says, as long as I’m in the world, I’m the light of the world. And it is that light that is illuminating for this man. [00:42:02] Anthony: I don’t know if you’ve seen the videos of people who had been born deaf and with today’s technology are able to hear. [00:42:13] Chris: Yeah, that’s right. [00:42:14] Anthony: And people who have been colorblind with special glasses can see in colors they could only previously try to imagine. It brings me to tears every time something like that happens. What a wonderful thing the Lord has done here. And I appreciate you just bringing it up, like the astonishment of what that man was experiencing and how that impacted his testimony. I don’t think he ever stopped talking about it. How could you? [00:42:46] Chris: How could you? And again, not to rank healings or encounters, but there’s just something so much more vivid and, like, whole-being-related to gaining a whole sense. Again, someone who is immobilized by leg injury or something like, absolutely — those stories in the gospels they jump up and leap about like calves. That’s so cool. This man is having his whole way of being in the world completely changed in a way that seems analogous to what Jesus is telling Nicodemus. “You need to be born again. You need to come into this world again as for the first time.” It feels like that’s a little bit of what that man is experiencing. [00:43:58] Anthony: Yeah. And yet Pastor Paul wrote to the church in Corinth, no eye has seen, no ears heard, no mind can even comprehend the things that are in store. Like even with this man’s sight, there’s just still so much. All right, let’s transition to our final pericope of the month. It’s John 11:1–45. We’ll read just a shortened version of that. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fifth Sunday of Lent / Easter Preparation, March 22. Chris, read it for us, please. [00:44:35] Chris: Sure. Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair; her brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said, “This illness does not lead to death; rather, it is for God’s glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” 5 Accordingly, though Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus, 6 after having heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was. 7 Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.” 8 The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now trying to stone you, and are you going there again?” 9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Those who walk during the day do not stumble because they see the light of this world. 10 But those who walk at night stumble because the light is not in them.” 11 After saying this, he told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be all right.” 13 Jesus, however, had been speaking about his death, but they thought that he was referring merely to sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 For your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 Thomas, who was called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” 17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, some two miles away, 19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them about their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary stayed at home. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.” 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.” 28 When she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary and told her privately, “The Teacher is here and is calling for you.” 29 And when she heard it, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come to the village but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31 The Jews who were with her in the house consoling her saw Mary get up quickly and go out. They followed her because they thought that she was going to the tomb to weep there. 32 When Mary came where Jesus was and saw him, she knelt at his feet and said to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was greatly disturbed in spirit and deeply moved. 34 He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus began to weep. 36 So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” 38 Then Jesus, again greatly disturbed, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, already there is a stench because he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus looked upward and said, “Father, I thank you for having heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” 45 Many of the Jews, therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what Jesus did believed in him. [00:47:33] Anthony: So how does the story end, Chris? Does he bring him back to life? Of course he does, and I think many of our listeners will know the rest of the text there. There’s just so much here. So, I wanted to give you a chance just to riff. What are you interested in us hearing? Teach, Teacher! Let’s hear it. [00:47:52] Chris: Yeah. I did preach on parts of this passage in the last year or two. And it’s interesting ’cause I was doing a little bit of cleanup. Several weeks earlier I’d had a lay person preach with not a whole lot of experience. And they did an overall really good job preaching on the Mary and Martha story from earlier. And congregation walked away with so much good stuff from that passage. But I felt like there was a little bit of an oversimplified kind of Martha, the busy body, Mary, the serious spiritual one, vibe happening. And it just needed to be a little more filled out. So, that’s what I mean by cleanup. So, we get to this story. And so, I chose this text. And we get to this story and we find these sisters. And if you have siblings, you know how very interesting dynamics come out when you are hosting an important guest. And now they, these same sisters are in a moment of deep grief and they are completely univocal. We clipped the passage, but Mary also repeats what Martha said about, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” Anthony: Yeah. Chris: So, it’s fascinating. We just read a passage about pointing fingers related to suffering, but this is quite different than “Who sinned, his father or mother?” The praise is coming out sideways. They actually believe that Jesus could and would have countered Lazarus’ death. And so, they’re blaming Jesus a little for not being there. So, I think that this is like a beautiful and weird display of faith that probably most people can connect to. If you’ve ever been deep in surprising grief, like whether you fall on the “got to get things done” or the “sit at Jesus’s feet and soak it up end” of the spectrum, you understand what it feels like to experience great loss and to try to figure out what the heck happened and what could have been different. Anthony: Yeah. Chris: There’s this old religious, like, old, old religious self-help book of Ars Moriendi, The Art of Dying. And it is like an instruction manual for how to be with people. And it tries to anticipate and name and short circuit some of the common struggles or temptations in dealing with death. This was written at a time of, like, plague where there was just death everywhere. And the three kind of temptations or common struggles that it isolates are that when you experience death, not your own death, but death around you that you’ll lose faith, that you’ll despair, or that you’ll become impatient with that feeling of emptiness and loss and grief and try to mobilize death or move beyond it or do something to buffer, that deep feeling of pain. It’s interesting in exploring this passage, like, I’m interested in exploring this passage as folks experiencing one of the worst days of their lives and still very imperfectly and maybe even problematically coming up with a way of looking at and pointing to Jesus. And it doesn’t seem like that really bothers Jesus that much to be blamed because their blame bears witness to their trust. [00:52:04] Anthony: I appreciate you saying that it bears witness to their trust in him. I have heard so many sermons about the contrastive styles of Mary and Martha, and I think Martha, sometimes from my perspective, gives a bad rap. It’s often, be Mary, don’t be Martha. But people have got to eat. That’s part of it too. [00:52:27] Chris: Also, it’s also interesting in this passage, Mary’s, like, kind of slow dwelling presence sensibility has her back with Lazarus and it’s actually Martha’s, like, more active and activated personality that has her first meeting Jesus … [00:52:50] Anthony: Yeah. [00:52:50] Chris: … when he arrives. And so, yeah. I do think it’s important to recognize that these are complicated real people, like all of us. And we’re really being given the gift of seeing them relate to Jesus in different ways, sometimes different ways and sometimes ways that are really unified in common. [00:53:16] Anthony: We talked earlier in the episode about how the kingdom of God emerges slowly but surely not often at the speed we want it to go. And I just couldn’t help but think of the connection in some ways to this story. Jesus is the king of the kingdom. He is the kingdom’s wherever he’s at. And yet he’s late based on the timing of what we want. Oh boy, there’s a lot to unpack there too. I think Jesus proclaimed himself as the resurrection and the life. And we didn’t get to this part in the text, but Jesus weeps. And I’m just curious, is there something for us to mine there in terms of a teaching? Why would he weep when he knows what he’s about to do, raise Lazarus from the dead? [00:54:11] Chris: I had a post-it note on my monitor for years. I think the only reason it’s not there is maybe I moved or maybe just the sticky gave way eventually. But it was from a Eugene Peterson kind of counsel for pastors. And one of the things that he said that pastors attempting to emulate the good shepherd Jesus, one of the things that we would be, is unhurried. And so, it can really be a challenging thing to try to be, and I think this passage really is like the greatest fear for if we approach ministry in an unhurried way, is that we actually might miss something big or important or might even be blamed for something that, that we could have been present for. And I take heart that Jesus shows us that is okay and he is that committed to the bit that that might happen. But I also take heart in a lot of motivation that when Jesus is present with them, he is so present that he cries. That famous scripture memory verse, “Jesus wept.” Anthony: Yeah. Chris: I don’t think I’ll ever encounter that verse or this part of John’s gospel without thinking of Mako Fujimura, the famous Japanese American Christian artist. And the way he makes art is through this really particular Japanese practice where he pulverizes precious metals and applies them with this like water and glue. And it’s kind of like watercolors, that there’s a certain level of chance and chaos and happy accidents and how things come out, even though he is very skilled and has great purpose. And for him, Jesus weeping at Lazarus’s graveside is the center of John’s gospel. It is structurally, but thematically too, and that Jesus’s tears give way for Lazarus’ resuscitation. But for Jesus’ resurrection, Mako has a quote in one of his books. He says, “Jesus’s tears transformed Mary’s view of her Lord, soaking the hardened ground of Bethany, Jesus’ tears co-mingled with hers. Jesus was not only a savior, but proved to be an intimate friend. The glory of God shown through the deep friendship with the Son of man, and John took note of it.” Yeah. I feel like, also for ministry leaders and pastor types grieving publicly can really be a challenge. It feels like we need to be tough and have it all together and say the right thing rather than sometimes just falling apart a little more publicly than we care to. I think of Henri Nouwen saying that that he’s learned that much of praying is just grieving. And yeah, I think Jesus models that. Also related to this one last thing. In the last year, I read a really fascinating book by Andy Root. He teaches up in Minnesota Twin Cities. And he writes a lot about the ministry in a secular age. And this book is called Evangelism as Consolation and talks really beautifully and imaginatively about just like Jesus in this story, just our being with people in an age of sadness and sorrow is great ministry and proclamation of the good news. He said, “Evangelism in these sad times is ultimately the confession that God meets us in our human sorrow and through our sorrow, takes our person into Jesus’s own person. And this is good news.” [00:59:18] Anthony: Yeah. I was sharing with a friend just in the last week about an opportunity we’re meeting as a church plant team. And I was feeling sorrow over feeling rejection by somebody. Not on our team, but someone adjacent to our church. And I’ve confessed that I’ve struggled to be vulnerable in this way often with a team. And I shared with them what I had experienced that week and I wasn’t anticipating it, but emotion just swept over me as I was talking about it. And I, in one sense, I was trying to keep a cap on it. I don’t know if you’ve ever done that, try to fight back tears, like sometimes I’m watching a movie and I don’t want anybody to see that I’m crying. I tried to put a cap on it, but it just seemed like it was the right thing just to let it go and to be honest about what I was feeling as a result of what had happened. And I didn’t think a whole lot of it other than sharing it. But one of the team members said to me afterwards, he said, “Anthony, we needed that from you. Because your tears allowed us, gave us permission to feel some of what not only you were feeling, but what all of us had been feeling.” And I just think, like you said, there’s just something about that. I’ve read a lot of Root’s books, but I haven’t read Evangelism as Consolation. I’m going to put that on my list, because there’s a lot of sorrow. And I, as I’m looking at our text as we kind of wrap up our time together, I know our sorrow is leading somewhere. And I see verse 39, “Jesus said, take away the stone.” And it’s got to be a foreshadowing, right? “Take away the stone.” And as his final words in the text are, “Unbind him and let him go.” Unbind Jesus from death, let him go. And his resurrection certainly is our objective truth in reality that we participate in his resurrected life. Hallelujah. Is there anything else from this text you’d want to kind of point out, bring to our attention? [01:01:39] Chris: I’ll probably preach this text in a few weeks. And this is one of those cyclical texts that, you’re right on the cusp of Easter. And I’m just so thankful for this episode in the life of Jesus in that it gives our people a real chance to see themselves as included with Christ’s death and resurrection. With this preview, those first fruits of the new creation. And in some ways, for all the ways that Jesus’s death on the cross includes us and is like the quintessential suffering of humanity, I think, of, like, … a Jesus will suffer until the end of the world sort of thing. It’s an episode like this where it’s just messy and it’s just family and it doesn’t happen at the right time. And there’s a little confusion about … So many family lives end when it’s like so and so got checked into the hospital for some minor thing and then they never got out. And so, yeah. It’s just a beautiful passage to see ourselves in and to see the ways that Jesus enters into our grief. Here’s our deep longing and desire for death not to win and not to continue to hurt us and not to continue to make us live and make decisions based on fearing death. And that Jesus says it in a way that’s just so human and real and accessible, still to us and for us and with us. [01:04:02] Anthony: And I think as pastors, ministry leaders, as proclaimers of the gospel, we have to continue to come back to this reality, that we are co-participants in Christ’s suffering and he suffers with us and he’s in the midst of it. And in a world that feels like it’s on fire and dying at this very moment, that is indeed good news that God is with us in this moment in human history. Hallelujah. Praise him. Well, Chris, or Rev. Bres, as we affectionately know you, I’m so grateful for you, your friendship, your guidance especially as we continue to to hitch our wagon to what Jesus is doing in Durham, North Carolina. I’m praying for you. I’m excited about the baseball season that’s just around the corner for you and your children. So, blessings being upon you. Thank you for joining us, and I want to thank our team of people who are behind the scenes that make all this work, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullens, Michelle Hartman. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the good work that you do to make this possible. And Chris, as is our tradition on the Gospel Reverb, we end with a word of prayer. We’d be grateful if you’d pray for us and with us. [01:05:16] Chris: Sure. Pray with me. Jesus. Light of the world. Help us see, like Thomas Merton prayed. We have no idea where we are going and do not see the road ahead of us and cannot know for certain where it will end. But you encounter, you touch, you heal, and you reveal still. Jesus, flesh and blood Word, who lives in our neighborhood, help us to receive your words. When we can’t, speak to us. Enable us when we don’t want to, dig out our ears. And when those around us won’t, let us continue to know and to speak your truth. We trust you always. Though we may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death, we will not fear for you are ever with us. You will never leave us to face perils alone. Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!The post Chris Breslin—Year A Lent 2–5 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Jane Williams—Year A Epiphany 4-Easter Prep 1 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Jane Williams. Jane is the McDonald Professor of Christian Theology at St. Mellitus College. She helped to found St. Mellitus before being appointed to professor. She previously taught in both university and theological college settings and has traveled extensively within the Anglican communion, lecturing and preaching. And she has a particular interest in the flourishing of women within God’s church. Jane, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time with us, we’d like to know you a little bit, your story, and especially, what has you experiencing delight these days? [00:01:34] Jane: What a lovely question, Anthony, and thank you so much for the infinite invitation to be with you. It’s a real joy. And I think particularly it’s a joy for me. I’m a lay person. I don’t regularly preach, but I do love to write about the lectionary and do that quite a lot. I’ve written quite a lot of lectionary reflections and I’m always amazed at how there’s always fresh insight to come out of Scripture. You think you’ve read it so many times, but it’s always fresh. It’s wonderful. [00:02:00] Anthony: Yeah. [00:02:00] Jane: What would you like to know about me? I’m a daughter of missionary parents. I was born and brought up in South India, which, as you know, has a very ancient Christian tradition of its own. They believe their church was founded by the Apostle Thomas. And so, I suppose I’ve always grown up in a Christian world that is bigger than any one denomination and always felt a very strong call to mission. But also, both my parents taught in a theological college in India, so I’m afraid theology runs through my DNA, totally. And I married a theologian as well, so there’s no escaping it. [00:02:41] Anthony: Yes. [00:02:42] Jane: So, in terms of that lovely end to your question about experiencing delight in these days — I mean on really different levels — I’m a grandma, which I love. And about to be … our daughter is about to produce a second grandchild. And that is such a really glorious role to have in relation to one’s grandchildren. So, that’s given me huge delight. I’m also in the process this semester of teaching a course on doctrine, particularly centering around the Nicene Creed. Why do we describe God like this? And it’s a real joy to see students putting together things that they know and always believed and prayed and interacted with in the character of God. But putting it together and getting a bigger and bigger and bigger picture of how glorious God is. That kind of teaching is a great joy. [00:03:38] Anthony: Isn’t it a joy to know that we are in a grand story that is carried on long before us and will go long after us as the creeds teach us. Jane: Absolutely. Anthony: That we’re a part of. And I celebrate your grandchildren. I have one grandchild who is showing up at our door today. I haven’t seen her in weeks, so I am living in a day of delight myself. So, it is wonderful that … Jane: I’m trying not to keep you talking for too long. You’re going to go be grandpa. Anthony: There you go. You mentioned you have a particular interest in the flourishing of women within God’s church. And from my perspective, so does Jesus. So, what does it look like for women to flourish in the church, and what guidance would you give to church leaders who desire the same? [00:04:25] Jane: I sort of feel it’d be lovely to stop having to have this conversation, wouldn’t it? And I think I would want to say, for women to flourish it’s the same as for anybody to flourish, which is to be allowed to really show the gifts that God has given them and share them. So, I think it’s to be attended to as a human being and not stereotyped constantly. Women are as different as men are and have the different gifts to offer. And so, I suppose to leaders who want to help women flourish, I think it is that great gift of attention — actually pay attention to the person in front of you. Let them narrate themselves. Don’t make assumptions about who they are based on their gender, because I think we waste so much of what people have to offer by making assumptions about what that is and what it isn’t. So, just let people be who they are as much as you can, and enable that. [00:05:28] Anthony: Yeah, it made me think, Jane, what you said — I think it was a quote from Lesslie Newbigin that talked about how we are shaped by what we attend to. And if we attend to people, human beings, and desire to flourish, and then, all boats will rise. We’ll all float. And I’m just thankful that you’re shining the light on this particular subject. It’s a subject that we have tried to attend to within our own denominational tribe and it’s exciting to see women flourishing in many ways within our context. And I give praise to God for that. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: What a beautiful gift it is. [00:06:06] Jane: It’s such a helpful thing to say as well, Anthony, because there isn’t just a limited amount of attention to go around. It grows, doesn’t it? As we attend to each other, we grow in our capacity to attend and be attended to. It’s a generous gift, as you would expect as a gift of God. [00:06:25] Anthony: Amen. Amen. Let’s dive into the lectionary text that we’ll be discussing for this month. Our first pericope is 1 Corinthians 1:18–31. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fourth Sunday after Epiphany, February 1. For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of the proclamation, to save those who believe. 22 For Jews ask for signs and Greeks desire wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to gentiles, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength. 26 Consider your own call, brothers and sisters: not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, things that are not, to abolish things that are, 29 so that no one might boast in the presence of God. 30 In contrast, God is why you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 in order that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” Amen. Jane, if you were proclaiming this particular text to a congregation, what would be the focus of your proclamation? [00:08:39] Jane: It’s Paul being really quite rude about the people he’s writing to, isn’t it? It’s quite fun to notice that he’s gently undermining them constantly in what he says about them: “not many of you are wise.” But clearly, from what we read about the Corinthians, they did think they were wise. It is partly helping them turn their own judgments on their heads as it were. But I think if I were to focus on one specific thing, I think it would be verse 30. God is why you are in “Christ Jesus who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” All of those things are gifts from God. Clearly the Corinthians, like so many of us, so much of the time, think that the wisdom and the righteousness and the sanctification and the redemption are our own doing. We’ve earned it in some way. And this is just putting it so clearly that they are gifts from God given to us as we are in Christ Jesus. The sort of sheer liberating generosity of God in that that allows us to put ourselves down, let go of all our hangups about ourselves, let go of our self-posturing and so on, and simply be grateful for the action of God. It is extraordinary, isn’t it, to think about Paul so early on in the proclamation of the Christian gospel talking about being in Christ — that identity that is completely given to us in the action of God in Christ. [00:10:27] Anthony: God makes the first move. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And you talked about Paul’s undermining of the people, having a little fun with it. And so, I want to ask you — you’re a theologian, scholar, academic, you’re surrounded by theologians: So, how does this statement make you feel, that he’s chosen the foolish — and I’m being a bit facetious — but what is the good news there? [00:11:08] Jane: I think the good news certainly for me is that it is I am never going to be the one who shows people the full reality of God. And I am too stupid and I’m glad to be so. Any God that I would be capable of completely describing and demonstrating to others will be too small a God. And so, this is again, just a wonderful releasing statement. We don’t have to be the ones who tell what God is like. God is more than capable of showing God’s self to us and demonstrating God’s reality. And so often that reality is counter-cultural and this foolishness of God that is actually the deep wisdom of the world, God as the One who gives God’s self constantly, who will do all that is needed to find us and bring us home, that extraordinary deep, deep wisdom that looks to us like foolishness because it’s so self-giving, so unselfish. And so, in my own experience as an academic and a lecturer, I’m constantly humbled by my students. They ask me questions every year that I’ve never thought about. And every year they go on highlighting to me their willingness to offer their lives in the service of the gospel and for the love of God. And they teach me endlessly. I’m glad to be a foolish theologian. [00:12:22] Anthony: Ha, ha, is that on your business card, Jane? Is that what you hand out? Jane: It should be, shouldn’t it. Anthony: I love the idea of being a lifelong learner. And there’s always something to learn from others, even those that are not as seasoned, let’s say as you are. That’s a gift. I’m just so humbled and grateful that you see it that way with your students. [00:12:45] Jane: You should thank them, not me. [00:12:47] Anthony: You know what? That’s true. That is true. Let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 5:13-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fifth Sunday after Epiphany on February 8. Jane, would you read it for us please? [00:13:09] Jane: You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything but is thrown out and trampled under foot. 14 You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. 15 People do not light a lamp and put it under the bushel basket; rather, they put it on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven. 17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. [00:14:25] Anthony: I’m interested in your exegesis on this statement, “you are the light of the world.” And my curiosity goes to this place: In what ways is the Church of Jesus embodying this reality? And in what ways is the light diminished under a basket? [00:14:45] Jane: Ooh! Such a good question. That phrase always takes me back to Isaiah, there in Isaiah 2, that glorious vision of God’s city on a hill and all the people streaming to it. And it’s one that Isaiah returns to more than once throughout the whole prophetic book, that the role of the people of God is to show, is to lift up God so that people can see God. And I think that our primary calling as church is to remember that it’s about God. It seems such an obvious thing to say. But it needs saying over and over and over again. There is no point in the church if that point is not God. [00:15:39] Anthony: Preach. [00:15:41] Jane: So, we really pour so much of our energies into structures and programs and things to keep our own systems going. And all of that is wasted if it’s not primarily about God. And so, I think the ways in which we embody this reality are often ways that we hardly notice. It is a miracle, isn’t it, that the people of God, the Church, continue, because left to our own devices, we mess it up so constantly. Anthony: Amen. Jane: And yet God continues to be faithful to us and enable us to keep coming back to God in Christ, in the power of the Spirit. Keep proclaiming the good news despite our own failures to believe it sometimes. And so, I think this passage makes me remember that our primary calling is not so that we should have a nice spirituality and a lovely prayer life, but so that we should be there as witnesses to the reality of God. And I think we do that in some ways and in so many other ways we do diminish it. We put it under a basket. And I’m no great guru, but it seems to me one of the ways in which we hide that light under a basket is by making our faith something individual. This is about me and God. Whereas, throughout Scripture, you can just see everything God gives, God gives to be shared. So, if we have the great privilege of coming to know God in Christ, that experience of the reality of God is always to be shared. Let’s not put it under any baskets. [00:17:30] Anthony: That is so good, Jane, what you just said. We, especially here in the American West, we’re hyper-individualistic in our approach to things. And I never read of a faith that is privatized. It’s personal, no doubt, but never privatized. It’s always about the community. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: Yeah. You mentioned about remembering and how forgetful we are sometimes to remember it’s about God. I was just thinking this morning in reading through Exodus, just how the people of God, the chosen Israelites, just continue to forget about God’s faithfulness. Whether it was his provision of food, whether it’s provision of light at night, whatever it was, they were just soon forgetting. And it’s so easy to say, look at those guys. They just mess it up over and over again. And then it’s, oh, that’s what I do. [00:18:23] Jane: Yes, exactly. Exactly. It’s so much easier to see it in other people, isn’t it, than in ourselves! [00:18:27] Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. And so, in that way, remembering is actually a sacred and holy thing that we do. It’s a spiritual discipline because it reminds us of the hope that we have in Christ. For sure. [00:18:40] Jane: I quote this whenever I’m allowed to Anthony, but this is a quote from the great writer on mysticism, Evelyn Underhill, and she said, “God is the interesting thing about religion.” [00:18:53] Anthony: Ooh. [00:18:55] Jane: And we keep forgetting that. We keep thinking we are the interesting thing or the ideas that we have are the interesting thing. But actually, God is the interesting thing about religion. [00:19:03] Anthony: That is so good! Jane: Isn’t it? Anthony: I’ll put that in the show notes. Thank you. You didn’t ask for permission, but I’m sure glad you went for it. Jesus said, “Let your light shine so others may see your good works, and then give glory to the Father.” But it seems to me that we’re so often shining a spotlight in such a way that it’s giving glory to ourselves. It just seems that the spotlight isn’t a very good guiding light at all. So, how do we shine a light, Jane, in such a way to give glory to the Father? [00:19:38] Jane: It’s a really tricky one, isn’t it, Anthony? Because the Gospels and Christian history are full of God giving us examples. So, seemingly, God putting the spotlight on particular people so that we can see a Christian life lived in the realities of this world. I’m doing some work on the great women mystics of the Christian past. And they are sort of heroes, that we know about them because people have needed to see the spotlight on them, to give us a sense of what we’re capable of, what with each other’s help we are able to do in our life of faith. So, we do need some spotlights, I think. But I think what’s interesting about that process is that on the whole, those people didn’t shine the spotlight on themselves. They offered themselves and their life and their teaching and their prayers to others, and others thought, I really need more people to see this. So, the spotlighting came from others rather than from the individuals themselves. And so, I suppose that’s what I would suggest to us — that what we are trying to do always is to look at people who help us to see more and more what a human being, living in the love of God looks like. And so, the best way we can do that is that all of us, with our spotlights, shining it on people who’ve helped us to be where we are, who helped us in our journey of faith. And then, perhaps, trying to shine the light forward, back, whichever way you’d want to think about it, so that the people who come after us can see that light, see that there are patterns of living that are lit up with the love of God. I think, yeah, I suppose my reservation would always be somebody who spots spotlights themselves. [00:21:47] Anthony: Yeah. I think a proclaimer of the gospel, especially those that preach in a local church setting, you have a choice each and every time. Who’s the hero here? Jane: Yeah. Anthony: Who gets the attention. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And I just believe if it’s done well, the congregation doesn’t leave talking about the preacher. They’re talking about God. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: Look what God did. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And like you said, we see those patterns of Christlike living in others, and we want to spotlight them. But like you said, it comes from someone else, not themselves. [00:22:23] Jane: And it’s so difficult to get that balance, isn’t it? [00:22:26] Anthony: Yeah. [00:22:26] Jane: Because preachers rightly tell stories about themselves because they want people to see the lived life. But if you come out of church, as you say, and all you remember is the story about a preacher, probably that didn’t work so well. [00:22:40] Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. This is a side conversation in some ways, but one of the mistakes I made early on in preaching ministry was if I told a story about myself, Jane — and I hate to confess this — but I was always the hero. I was always doing things well. And it took a long time to realize, who am I pointing the light to when I do that? And so, I don’t do that anymore. And we’re works in progress, are we not, Jane? Jane: We’re all works. Anthony: Maybe you’ve arrived, but I haven’t arrived. [00:23:16] Jane: I have not arrived. I always take great comfort from the fact that Augustine of Hippo got into great trouble for writing confessions, because people around him thought, that’s not what a church … that church leaders shouldn’t show themselves, warts and all. Church leaders should show heroic Christian living. But Augustine’s work has lived on, because he showed himself in pursuit of God and God in pursuit of Augustine. And that’s what we need to see. [00:23:44] Anthony: Yeah. That’s so good. It reminded me of … a mentor said this to me once, and I think it’s a good way of thinking about mentorship and discipleship. People need to know far more than your ministry highlight reel. They need to know where you’ve struggled. Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And just be let into, to kind of pull the curtain back so they can see really, what does the life look like in faithfulness to God, as God is faithful to them. Okay, let’s transition to the next pericope. It’s Matthew 17:1-9. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Transfiguration Sunday, February 15. Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain, by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became bright as light. 3 Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you wish, I will set up three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell to the ground and were overcome by fear. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Get up and do not be afraid.” 8 And when they raised their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus himself alone. 9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, “Tell no one about the vision until after the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.” Speaking of letting your light shine: Transfiguration Sunday. It’s celebrated annually on the Christian calendar, and I’m curious what makes this mountain-side experience worthy of such an annual reminder? [00:25:45] Jane: I think we always want to pay attention to something that the Gospels really highlight for us. And Matthew, Mark, and Luke, all tell us this story of Jesus’ transfiguration. And so, as we enter into this story, we are doing that in the company of people who have heard it from the first century onwards, who’ve heard this story as one that deepens our understanding of God in Christ and therefore deepens our own Christian calling. I think, for me, what’s really striking is that it is the reiteration of God the Father’s affirmation of the Son at baptism. And then this reaffirmation here in the Transfiguration. If the baptism is Jesus is total identification with us in our humanity, entering down into the waters of chaos to be reborn as the One chosen and called by God, this is Jesus’s reaffirmation in the love of the Father as he heads towards his death. So, a really pivotal moment in the gospel stories where Jesus’ identification now is going to go even deeper. Jesus is going to come into death for our sake, so that there, Jesus will find him. And it’s a most profound place for the Father to say to the Son, “you’re my beloved” again, in the hearing of those who know Jesus and love Jesus. And for us to hear that, those words that Jesus takes with him to the cross as he heads towards Jerusalem now in the final ending on the cross, a really, really significant grounding of that call to be with us even into death in the love of the Father. [00:27:49] Anthony: I imagine when Peter and James and John were going up on the Mount and they did not have on their bingo card, so to speak, that Moses and Elijah were going show up. Jane: No. Anthony: And I’m curious. What, if anything, should we take from that? Is it significant? Is it just an afterthought? What’s going on here? [00:28:06] Jane: I think it’s clearly theologically deeply significant that these are two absolutely outstanding narrators of the character of God, Moses and Elijah, in what we call the Old Testament scriptures. Moses, the one to whom God entrusts the law, that is to shape his people’s life so that they may live out of God’s own character, God’s self-given character in the law. Elijah, the one who’s constantly calling the people back to faith, to God’s faithfulness to them and their faithfulness to God. So, the law and the prophets here shown as witnessing to Jesus. So, the creed calls the Holy Spirit, the One who speaks through the prophets. And I think you get throughout the New Testament, you get this sense of God’s, the faithful continuous arc of God’s company, God’s faithfulness to us, God’s presence, God’s narration of God’s self to us. And Jesus is the fulfillment of that. Moses and Elijah are clearly secondary, you might say. They’re saying they’re like the Father, saying, “Look at this. Look at Jesus. When you want to know about God, look at Jesus.” And yet that’s not a writing off, it’s not a wiping out of the way God has always interacted with God’s people, but a culmination of it in Jesus Christ that we’re seeing here. So, huge theological significance. And reminds us how important it is for us as Christians to pay attention to the whole of scripture. And not just the New Testament, but the whole of God’s interaction with people from and creation through to fulfillment. [00:29:58] Anthony: And thinking of Jesus being left alone in terms of Moses and Elijah appearing no longer and God saying, “Listen to him.” And it reminded me of something one of your colleagues said to me, “Jesus is the highest resolution image of God that we have.” Jane: Yeah. Anthony: And it’s a lovely way to think of it, that in him, the fullness of deity was pleased to dwell. God self-reveals and it’s glorious. [00:30:29] Jane: And it’s incredibly moving, isn’t it? That quite rightly, the disciples are terrified. And Jesus reaches out and touches the sister God who reaches out in our reality and touches us. So, their fear and awe were proper. They were in the presence of the Shekinah, the great Presence, the glorious presence of God. And yet that glorious presence comes to find us in a human form to enable us to be touched where we really are. [00:31:03] Anthony: One of the things that has always struck me about this text is the ending. [00:31:08] Jane: Yeah. [00:31:09] Anthony: They came back down the mountain. Peter was so overwhelmed by the experience, he’s, “Let’s hang out here. Let’s build some tabernacles and just stay up here on the mountain.” But life gets lived in the ordinary, mundane, common. Anything you want to say about that? I know you said you have a heart for mission. I’m just thinking that through with this text. [00:31:30] Jane: It is at the heart, isn’t it, of everything that Jesus shows us about God is that God comes to find us. And so, our spirituality is not removed from reality. We are not called to step out of the world and become people who have no interaction with day-to-day living but actually to follow Jesus into the reality of the world around us. And I love Peter. I think Peter so often blurts out what each of us would say. But we always wait for a Peter to say it for us. [00:32:10] Anthony: That’s right. [00:32:11] Jane: And so that longing to stay where we are, especially in a moment of glorious worship or encounter or something like that. But those moments are given to us so that we can take the good news into the whole world. [00:32:29] Anthony: Amen and amen. Our final pericope of the month is Matthew 4:1-11. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the First Sunday in Lent, February 22. Jane, please do the honors. [00:32:47] Jane: Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tested by the devil. 2 He fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was famished. 3 The tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered, “It is written, ‘One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 saying to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, ‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and ‘On their hands they will bear you up, so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.’” 7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! for it is written, ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.’” 11 Then the devil left him, and suddenly angels came and waited on him. [00:34:06] Anthony: I so enjoy listening to you read. What is it about the Brits when they read? It just sounds so inviting and intelligent. Jane: But that’s what we feel when you read. Anthony: This is quite a text, is it not? And we’d be interested to know, if you were teaching it, what would you teach? [00:34:27] Jane: I love this text and because I’ve written a number of small reflective books for Lent, it’s a text that I’ve written about and prayed about and pondered over in all kinds of different ways. I would start by noticing that it is the work of the Spirit to take Jesus into the wilderness, we are told. And therefore, Jesus goes trustingly into this hard testing place. And he goes to find out. Remember this story immediately follows the baptism of Jesus, where he’s heard the voice of the Father saying, “Oh, my beloved Son.” He’s felt the presence in the Spirit upon him. And then he’s driven out into the wilderness. And it is as though we see Jesus really confronting what it is to be told that he is the Son of God. What does it mean for Jesus to be the Son of God in this world and for us and for our salvation? And the tempter is giving Jesus all the pictures that we would normally have of what it would be like to be the Son of God: the kind of power, the kind of safety, and the sense of God taking care of us, people admiring Jesus, that all of these kingdoms could be yours. That’s so much of what, left to our own devices, we think is important about the world — those kind of attributes. And over and over and over again, Jesus is able to reject them. And we see Jesus’ sonship really taking shape, I think, and these temptations. And these temptations are what are going to enable Jesus when it comes to that terrible moment in Gethsemane to say, “Not what I will, but what you will,” because we see Jesus becoming through and through and through the person who will, under all circumstances, be the Son of God. And I think that’s what I find it incredibly moving: to see this description of Jesus in the wilderness, allowing the Scriptures, allowing the Spirit, allowing the Father to shape what it will mean for Jesus to be the Son of God in his ministry, in life, and in death. And as I say, I think these choices are the ones that enable Jesus to be always, under all circumstances, Son of the Father. That’s Jesus’ most basic self-definition. [00:37:07] Anthony: You pointed out that the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness. And the wilderness shows up time and time again in Scripture in both testaments over 300 times. And it’s a significant metaphor and situation that we face in this world. What is the wilderness and why is it so important in Scripture? [00:37:30] Jane: I suppose I come at it primarily as a doctrine and history scholar rather than necessarily a biblical scholar. And it’s fascinating to see, for example, in the work of the early monastic movement, the desert fathers and mothers. And that movement was just as Christianity was beginning to get a bit more comfortable, a bit more settled in the world — that movement of people being led by the Spirit out into the wilderness again. And they see it very much as a place for doing battle with the devil as we see Jesus doing here in this particular story. Because here in the wilderness the devil is much more noticeable because there are few other distractions. And so, the desert fathers and mothers are very deliberately taking on, you might say the battle between good and evil for their own sake, but also for the sake of others. As even more so, obviously, Jesus here in this account is overcoming the devil so that he can be the one who fulfills God’s calling to him. And so that really important sense of doing battle with the things that are preventing us from being who we are called to be, I think, is one of the big wilderness symbols because so much of our life is so distracted. It is so easy not to notice the things that are actually holding us in through all the things that are taking up all our time and energy, the things that we, whether we would call it worship or not, the things to which we give the best of ourselves. They’re so insidious all around us that I think these wilderness times, whether actually physically going out into a place of quiet and retreat or the hard times that we hit, are times for really reevaluating and reminding ourselves that our most basic calling, that the only thing that can truly fulfill us is to be the children of God that we are called to be. So, taking Jesus’ example and constantly saying God first, God first, God first. [00:40:03] Anthony: God first. That’s a great way to segue into what I was going to say. God first. I was going to mention how, from my vantage point, theology is enormously important and it’s an understatement even saying it that way. Jane: Sure. Anthony: Because it shapes how we see everything, the way that we think and talk about God. And I am of the opinion, if theology doesn’t lead us to greater worship and devotion, we’ve missed the point. It’s not just knowledge. It is about worship of this living God. So, as a final word, would you do us the honor of just heralding the good news that you see in this text about Jesus Christ who reveals the heart of God? [00:40:51] Jane: What we see in Jesus is the lengths to which God will go to be God for us and to come and find us. When Paul says in Romans 8, nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, that is because God will not let anything separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And that’s what we see in this passage. It’s Jesus’ complete open identification with the task that God the Father has given him and which he has received with generosity and openness to be God for us. “For us and for our salvation” as the creed says, and that willingness on God’s part to identify with us when we are so often unwilling to be the human beings that God longs for us to be. It’s one of those extraordinary mirror images, isn’t it, that God is willing to be a human being and so that we can be the human beings we are called to be. But we don’t want to be human beings. We want to be gods. That’s the Genesis pattern that echoed in this wilderness account, that we know Jesus is really God because Jesus is willing to be God for us and not for himself. [00:42:18] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. Jane, I’m so grateful that you joined us. I didn’t mention this to you, I don’t believe, but my wife and I, Elizabeth and I were sitting in a workshop session at the Duke Divinity Initiative of Theology and Arts, and you were one of the panel presenters about how art can be a gift in the midst of suffering. And I sat there and I was so drawn to the wisdom that you taught with, the humility. And one thing I said to Elizabeth as we drove home that day is your precision of language. Your language was so informed by your experience with the Lord. I was struck by it and I thought, oh, I want to have her on the podcast. And fact that you said yes was such a delight. So, thank you so much for joining us. [00:43:14] Jane: Thank you for the invitation. [00:43:15] Anthony: Yes, of course. And I also want to thank our team, Reuel and Enerio, Michelle Hartman, and Elizabeth Mullins. This would not be possible without them. What a wonderful group of people to work with. And as is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb. We’d like to end with the word of prayer. So, Jane, would you pray for us please, as we close? [00:43:32] Jane: It would be such a pleasure. Come, Holy Spirit, and open the Scriptures to us. Say that we may see Jesus. Come, Holy Spirit, and pray in us, Abba Father, so that we may be sisters and brothers of the Son, daughters and sons of the Father. I pray in particular for all who read these texts that Anthony and I have been discussing — all who ponder them or who preach them or who try to live them — that every word will be filled with presence of the Spirit. With the joy of the Spirit and with the call to proclaim God who comes to find us, God who is for us, God who will let nothing separate us from his loving Christ Jesus, may these words come alive afresh as each person reads from ponders them and proclaims them. We pray this in the precious name of Jesus. Amen. Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Jane Williams—Year A Epiphany 4-Easter Prep 1 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Brian Zahnd, founding pastor and theologian of Word of Life Church and author of multiple books, joins to reflect on scripture and ministry. He shares stories from 44 years of pastoring and why the lectionary shapes preaching. Conversations range from the Trinity as a house of love to the meaning of baptism, John the Baptist’s humility, and how the cross upends worldly power.

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Paul Young. Paul is the author of the New York Times bestseller book, The Shack. It sold over 20 million copies worldwide — that number’s just hard to fathom. His other books included Eve, Crossroads, and Lies We Believe About God. Paul, thanks for being with us. Welcome to the podcast, and it’s your first time with us. So, we want to know how in the world are you? How’s your family? And maybe if you’re willing to, give us some insights on the projects you’re currently working on. [00:01:23] Paul: Anthony, it’s great to be with you. I so appreciate it. Actually, my whole life is led up to this moment, so why would I want to be anywhere else? Anthony: Amen. Paul: Family’s good. We now have 17 grandchildren … Anthony: 17! Paul: I know. Weird, right? And we’re probably … [00:01:44] Anthony: Do you have a favorite? [00:01:46] Paul: The one that I’m thinking about at any given moment. [00:01:49] Anthony: There you go. Good answer. [00:01:51] Paul: It’s the true answer, just like when somebody asks you about which of your children do you love the most? And it’s like, right at this moment, it’s X because I’m thinking about him or her. Anthony: Yeah. Paul: And I love that. I love that each child brings with them a space they put in your heart that only they can fill. And it’s like that I have that space inside of Jesus, inside the Trinity, and I’m the only one that can fill it. So, that’s a great place of rest for us all. So, family’s good. Lots of little projects and big projects. I’ve just finished writing the sequel for The Shack and they’re going to announce it this month sometime. [00:02:46] Anthony: Oh, and is this breaking news? Are we the first to hear this? Paul: Oh, kind of. Anthony: All right, world. You heard it. [00:02:55] Paul: Yep. Yep. You heard it here. But they plan to release the book in October 2026 for a lot of different reasons. One is that they want to do a global release in terms of English and other languages at the same time, which is … I didn’t even know they did that kind of stuff. And it’s pretty fun. I’m working on a large musical stage production of the Shack that’ll Anthony: Come on. Paul: Oh, I know. I love live theater. And so, it’s rapping, modern music, with a libretto, which was my first time ever writing one of those. So, it was a great learning curve. I worked with Janice Patel, who is an American soprano who lives in Germany most of the time. And then, we’ve got some great creative talent. We might have a partnership with a community of people that put out huge choirs. But we’ll see. It’s a work in progress. We’ve been working on it for three years already, and it will probably launch in 2028 and in Germany, in the German speaking world before it then moves out from there. But that’s pretty cool. [00:04:16] Anthony: That is. Oh, and before we started recording, you were actually singing. Do you want to give us a bit of a rendition on this music? This is your opportunity, your stage, sir. [00:04:30] Paul: I’m not in this thing and for good reason. I could … never mind. That’s in the works. I’ve got some more book projects that are at different stages of creation. But here’s what’s cool, Anthony. I don’t need any of these things. My identity is not in a book. It’s not in a movie. And so, that was one of the best things about writing The Shack is that by the time I wrote it, the real important things were in place to me. And I didn’t intend to write it for the world. I just wrote it for my six kids as a Christmas present. And made my 15 copies at Office Depot, because they had a sale going on. And I gave it to my kids for Christmas and then extras to my friends and they gave it to their friends and those friends wanted to give it to their friends. And that’s started a chain reaction. But the things that were in place were things like identity and worth and value, significance, security, meaning, purpose, destiny — whatever that means, community, and love. And so, I didn’t need it. Thank God! And I mean that very literally. Anthony: I think you do. Paul: Because I’ve watched notoriety and platform and things like that just mess with people big time. It’s a cross. Anthony: Yes. Paul: And the one gift that it did give me was — and my family and my friends — The Shack became a doorway. It became an invitation to walk, to enter and walk on the holy ground of other people’s story. And I’m using the metaphor from Moses seeing a burning bush in the wilderness and he ends up taking his shoes off because it’s holy ground. The beauty is that every single person you ever meet is a burning bush. Anthony: Yes. Paul: The presence of God is in them, burning away — which is what love does — burns away everything in them that is not of love’s kind and that prevents them from being fully human and fully alive. So, I believe that God is a fiery fury, but that that is always aimed at that which keeps the child from being fully human and fully alive. And so, it’s not aimed at the child. And we know that. If we have any kind of a healthy relationship with our children and we are healthy ourselves, that our fury is not aimed at the child. It’s aimed at that which is harming them. And I think that’s the nature of the love of God. The early church saw it as a doctor in a hospital, not a litigator in a courtroom or a judge in a courtroom. That came with our ancestry of lawyers like Augustine and Luther and Calvin. They were all lawyers. And so, they came up with what, traditionally, is called forensic theology, law room theology. But that’s not how the early church saw it at all. It was a doctor in a hospital, and, of course, you want to go see the doctor in the hospital to judge you. Of course you do, because you want to know why you’re sick. And then, you want that judge, that doctor, to then what punish you? Yeah, with a cast or with chemo or whatever. The whole goal of that profession is to heal you. And the whole goal of the love of God is to restore and heal you. [00:08:05] Anthony: Yeah. And thanks be to God that this physician also became the patient. Paul: The great physician. Anthony: Oh, yes, he is. And he became the patient to heal us inside out. Paul: Absolutely. Anthony: Oh, what a gift. Paul: Oh my gosh. Yes. Anthony: And you’re talking about the follow up to The Shack and so this is probably appropriate timing to ask you this. I looked it up: 18 years since The Shack was published. Paul: I know. Anthony: And I still recall the first time I read it. It rocked my world. And I can only imagine in some ways how it changed yours. But you just reflected on, it didn’t change the most important things. But I just want to invite you to take a moment to reflect and maybe share a story or two of the impact that work had on people that you’ve met around the world. [00:08:55] Paul: Man. I mean, there are literally thousands that I know of. And who knows what kind of ripple effect it had. Again, I didn’t know what was going to happen with this thing. I only knew that this was a way to, one, submit to my wife who wanted me to write something, she said, as a gift for our kids. One day later, she told me she was thinking four to six pages, but she didn’t tell me that. And so, she said, “You know, you think outside the box and I think it would be a good thing.” So, that’s why I did it. And none of this is anything that I could have even imagined. So, walking on the holy ground of other … you know, every human being is a story. So, the fact that The Shack has found a way inside so many people’s hearts and lives and changed things in terms of perspective. It’s raised the bar on our theology, because a lot of us had a God that actually wasn’t worth trusting. I had a missionary kid friend email me and say, When I was growing up, I couldn’t really tell the difference between God and Satan, except with Satan, I just knew where I stood. Anthony: Hmm. Wow. Paul: I know. Let’s see, a story. I spoke and then there was a book signing. And when this first started, I had no clue about how do you even sign books. But I could never sit behind a table. It just never worked for me. I mean, how can you hug anybody from behind a table? Anthony: Good word. Paul: But I’m standing in front of this table and this couple comes up and they start putting photographs down on the table. And they told me that about three years prior to this, their early-twenties-something daughter had been killed by a drunk driver going the wrong way down a one way. An only child. Devastated them, especially the mom. And she couldn’t climb out of the hole. She just was stuck. They’d never heard of The Shack or anything like that. But finally, in sort of desperation, the husband said, “There are two states next to us. Why don’t we just go explore, just get away from here.” Because every time something came up, it just knocked her back into the abyss. And so, they decided to do that, take about two weeks, and just explore places, just drive. And they were, somewhere around a week or a little more, they were in some little town that they’d never heard of and got a bed and breakfast. In the morning, the husband said, “You know, why don’t we just a put together a lunch and go find a picnic table at some park” — because every town, you would think, would have a park — “and then have our lunch.” She said, “Great idea.” So, they packed up all their stuff and they went into town, around the town, looking for a park, and they couldn’t find one. They were doing these concentric circles. Finally, they were driving. The town was small and they were outside of town, and they decided to just drive around on these roads. About an hour later, the husband says, “Why don’t we just go back to our bed and breakfast and put our little plastic tablecloth on the table in our room and have our camping lunch?” And she said, “No, why don’t we just go down this road” — paved road, and by then they’re outside the town. This is Midwest stuff and there are big, huge fields, hardly any houses. If there were, they were set way back. And she said, “Let’s go down here.” So, they go five or six miles and then she says, “Let’s take that road,” a dirt road that went just off to one side. And so, they took that road for about a couple miles and suddenly the husband goes, “Look!” And he’s pointing at a field, nothing in it, but a picnic table right in the middle of this field, way behind where it was a fence, no houses, nothing. But there was a little outbuilding near the fence. So, they pulled all their stuff out and they go walk over to what they thought was a picnic table. And they’re showing me photos of all this, right? Putting them on the table. And it wasn’t a picnic table. It was actually probably the last thing remaining from a house that used to be there, probably burned down, and then all the wood taken away for something else. But it was the concrete steps that went up to just a flat surface. And they’re like, “Closest thing to a picnic table we’ve seen.” So, they laid out their little plastic thing and their plastic wear and the food that they had put together, sandwiches and stuff. And they started eating. They finished, or they weren’t quite finished, but the wife says, “You see that little building over there? There’s a sign, oval sign above the door, but I can’t make it out.” He says, “I’ll walk over and tell you what it says.” So, he does, and he comes back and he says, “All it says is The Shack.” And means nothing to them. They go, “Oh.” They pack up their stuff, heading back to the car, and suddenly the wife stops and she says, “I’m going to go in there.” He goes, like, “Go in where?” She says, “That little building over there. I’m going to go in there, The Shack.” And he says, “I don’t think that might be a good idea, because somebody might be in there and you don’t want to disturb anybody suddenly.” And she says, “You go to the car, I’m going go into The Shack.” So, he follows her. She’s just determined. She gets to it, and they have pictures, right? The little oval sign that was above the door that says, The Shack. And she just goes in. She doesn’t even knock. It’s just four walls. And on one side there’s a desk. And on the desk, there’s a signup sheet and a little sheet that had big printing instructions. And then to the right of that, there’s a book they’d never heard of. And the little instructions sheet just said, “Take whatever you need.” And they look at this signup sheet and people from all over the United States had come there and they signed their names and where they were from. And she holds up this book and she said, “Your book saved my life.” And she’s just bawling. Somebody got a nudge from the Holy Spirit to have copies available to whoever happened to come by. [00:15:33] Anthony: No way. [00:15:34] Paul: Yeah. Isn’t that wild? [00:15:35] Anthony: That’s unreal. [00:15:36] Paul: And they had a picture of the signup sheet. They had a picture of everything, and they just got a nudge. And people came from all over the United States and found this little outbuilding in the middle of nowhere and copies of The Shack. [00:15:55] Anthony: I’m speechless. It’s this — that sounds like you made it up. Paul: I know. Anthony: It’s so good. And really isn’t that the truth about what people believe about God? You got to be making that up. He just can’t be that good. [00:16:09] Paul: Yeah. Part of it is that, that we were trained in the modern world to not trust the living Father, Son and Holy Spirit that dwell within us. We lost that when the experts started taking over what God was saying and they were just waving the Bible around and saying, “We’re trained in this, so we know what God is saying and you need to listen to us because who knows, if you think God is talking to you probably will do something stupid.” And the reality is we were told a lot of stupid things based on people’s perspective and biases. And it didn’t help. And there’s a lot of great things. I love experts in what they do, but we were told a lot of lies and we didn’t have the sense that we could hear the Holy Spirit for ourselves. That’s changing. That’s changed. [00:16:59] Anthony: Yeah. I thank God for that sale at Office Depot or wherever it was that you printed this book, because it has been such a gift to me, to millions around the world. I grew up with this idea that Jesus could be tender. He could wash feet. He could sit with a woman all day at a well. He could go to Jairus’s house in great mercy. But I had a real issue with God the Father being tender. Paul: Yeah, me too. Anthony: I could see him holy. I could see him righteous. I could see him aloof. I could see him really constantly mildly disappointed, but to think of him as tender. Oh, that was radical. Radical change. [00:17:46] Paul: For sure. We somehow forgot that Jesus would say things like, “If you’ve seen the Father.” You’ve actually — “if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” “I and the Father are one.” And I did what a lot of people have done who have not grown up with a good father. My dad was a good man, but he was so broken, he didn’t know how to raise a child. And so, he was a hitter, and I painted the face of God with the face of my own dad. And it took a lot of years for me to get out from under what you’re talking about and begin to realize, oh my gosh, there’s not two gods here. Yes, there’s only one. And Jesus is the face of that God. [00:18:31] Anthony: I can hear your friend Brian Zahnd saying, “Jesus is like the Father. The Father is like Jesus. We’ve not always known this, but now we do.” And it changes everything, doesn’t it? It radically changes everything. And we’re going to get into that in a bit too, about how theology is just so vitally important to the way that we see all things, the way that we live our lives. But, in one sense, Paul, I’m sorry you went through that with your father, but in another sense, I’m not. You’re here. It’s helped shape who you are and I’m so grateful that you have arrived at this moment. So … [00:19:08] Paul: Yeah. But what my father did was wrong. The Holy Spirit is a redeeming genius and climbs into our losses, doesn’t justify them, doesn’t say that the wrong is now the right, but out of the rubble, out of the ashes can create beauty. And that’s to be celebrated, that’s to be acknowledged. And there’s a deep gratitude for the redeeming genius in all of our lives. [00:19:42] Anthony: Amen and amen. All right, we’re here to talk about the lectionary text for this month. Our first passage of the month is Matthew 3:1–12. I’m going to be reading from the NRSVUE. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday of Advent, December 7, and it reads, In those days John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness of Judea, proclaiming, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” 3 This is the one of whom the prophet Isaiah spoke when he said, “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.’” 4 Now John wore clothing of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region around the Jordan were going out to him, 6 and they were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, bear fruit worthy of repentance, 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our ancestor,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is more powerful than I, and I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” So, it says the kingdom of heaven has come near. So said John the Baptist. And yet we just look out into the world. And I’m thinking about a podcast of viewers I just recently listened to that dealt with ideology and how it can be weaponized and just so much division and hurt and outrage. Was John the Baptist wrong? Is the kingdom of heaven near? And if so, help us see the reality, because this is what I believe: When theology is neglected, ideology rushes in to take its place, often cloaked in religious language. And that causes problems. And I know I’m hitting on a couple of subjects here, but just tell us about this kingdom of heaven that’s come near even in the face of so much adversity in the world. [00:22:25] Paul: I love the way that it’s written. It says, “The kingdom of heaven has come near. This is the one …” Anthony: Yes. Paul: The kingdom of heaven is as near to us as Jesus is. So, the identification here is between Jesus and the kingdom of heaven. And so, where is he? Was John the Baptist wrong? Absolutely not. But he identified the kingdom of heaven as the person of Jesus or the writer did. And so, where is Jesus? Where is the kingdom of heaven? Elsewhere it says “the kingdom of heaven is in you.” Jesus says, “On that day, you’ll know I’m in the Father, you are in me, and I am in you.” So, when it’s saying the kingdom of a heaven is at hand, John the Baptist, in terms of how this is written, has got a twinkle in his eye, and he’s like, “Ah, kingdom of heaven is near.” And that’s because Jesus is near. And so, right from the get go, we have to not think of the kingdom of heaven as a geographical place or as a nationalistic place or as any of those things that we get stuck on. But it’s a person. And that person dwells in you. In fact, that person dwells in every single person who has ever been conceived. Paul in Acts 17 says basically the same thing. And he’s announcing it to pagans. It’s like, “You are the children of God, and so you might seek him because he’s near.” And again, I think Paul had a twinkle in his eye. And so he is, he’s making the case, “You live and move and have your being in him.” And he’s talking about the same stuff. It’s like his Damascus Road verses, like when “God was pleased to reveal himself in me.” That’s his Damascus Road experience. That’s where he was blown away by the fact that Jesus, the kingdom of God, is in him. And he says, and now I preach him in the Gentiles. That’s the good news. Christ in you, right? So no, there’s no mistaking here. What we see in the world is not, it’s not ideology that has gone wrong. It’s the existence of ideology, period. The kingdom of God is not ideology. The tree of life is not ideology. The tree of being right, the knowledge of good and evil, the independent decision that something is wrong and something is right — that’s not the tree of life. So anytime you get stuck, we get stuck, I get stuck making a declaration about, this is evil and this is good, and taking a stance against it, I’m not eating of the tree of life, which is love and relationship. And that comes right down to our personal relationships, right down to the way that we love the person in front of us. And sometimes it’s harder to love a family member than it is to love a stranger. And I’m like, oh my gosh. I have been eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil most of my life. And the new Jerusalem, the city of God — in Hebrews 12, it has come. We are already a part of it. And it’s not a mountain full of fire and all of that. It is the kingdom of God, the new Jerusalem. It is the body of Christ. It is all of these metaphors. And the river of life comes from within it, outwardly, through the gates. And it’s the trees on either side of that river of life are for the healing of the nations, as well as the fruit are for the healing of the nations. That’s not ideology. And that city has no tree of the knowledge of good and evil in it. None whatsoever. That is the way the world functions. And I’m not talking about Paul. Are you saying that nothing is nothing is evil? Anything that is not love is not good. But that’s not what we do in our relationships. We declare, “I’m right. You’re wrong.” And we have to understand that ideology is religious ideology. My way of looking at God is right. Your way is wrong. So, my job is to change you. Well, if you’ve been around anybody that’s holding onto an ideology, you can argue until you’re dead. You’re not going to change them. And so, what changes anything? [00:27:28] Anthony: That’s right. [00:27:29] Paul: Love. The person in front of you does not need to know you’re right. They need to know that you love them. That’s the thing that is going to open up the heart, open up the world, and actually would change the world. Ideology just adds to the violence. And ideology exists because people are fearful. There is no fear in love, and we don’t need to have an ideology at all. Love is the place of power. Love is that which actually changes the world. Fear just compounds the evil that’s in the world. And so, I want to be done eating of the tree of being right. And we’re surrounded by so much information about so many things that we can do absolutely nothing about. And I was, like, stop. Just stop. If there is a person or situation that is right in front of you, respond to that because it’s real. All of this fear-based ideological stuff — it’s not real. It’s not eternal. Love is eternal, because love is the very nature of God who dwells in us. And this is why people are all indwelt by the full presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But God will not rip you through the bars of the prison you call home. That is not what love does. Love will climb into the place you are and love you until you’re ready to walk out of the prison. [00:29:11] Anthony: So, what I hear you saying is, the way that we can bear witness, faithful witness, to be a faithful expression of the Spirit who abides in us, is just to love the person in front of us. That’s the witness that the kingdom of heaven has come near. Is it not? [00:29:15] Paul: Yeah. And that’s the fruit. That’s what John the Baptist is going after. He’s going, like, repentance — that’s changing your mind. Look, if you’re saying your mind is changed, then bear fruit that matches it. Make sure that the ways of your being match the truth of who you are and the truth of who you are has got to be grounded in the very indwelling union that you have with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That’s eating from the tree of life. [00:29:45] Anthony: And wouldn’t you say that repentance is not a one and done kind of scenario, but it’s ongoing? Because, I mean, every day, Paul, it seems like I fall flat on my face on something and realize, oh, I had that wrong. And there’s just this perpetual nature of having our minds renewed. Don’t you think that’s how repentance works? [00:30:07] Paul: Yeah. It’s an ongoing process — in our fear and trembling work out our salvation. The salvation is once complete, finished. Jesus does not have to die again for anybody. God submits to us because God loves us. And this is a God who submits by nature, but continues to work in us. And we come to all this and in our fear and trembling, not about God, but just as the state of being human, we begin to work out with what has already been worked in. And so, it’s all about living from the inside out. And so, your mind is going to be changed and renewed and renewed and renewed. And what challenges you? Like somebody said to me, I’ve got it right here. They said they thought they were complete human beings and then they got married. I personally think marriage would be a lot simpler if there wasn’t another person involved. And but that’s the … [00:31:13] Anthony: You said it not me. [00:31:15] Paul: I know. Let me talk to you about your marriage and see what buttons got touched and poked at. The part of the reason we love our enemies is because they can bring crap to the surface in ways that our friends wouldn’t. And it’s like, oh, when I have this kind of a visceral response to that person, that’s the exposure, and that’s the Holy Spirit bringing things to the surface in order to heal us. And love your enemies. Turn the other … it’s all Sermon on the Mount stuff. [00:31:50] Anthony: Thank God that he is a healing God. And like you said, salvation — one and done. It’s finished, it’s complete. But Lord, continue to renew our minds. Metanoia our minds over and over again and remind us of your goodness. Let’s transition to the next pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 11:2–11. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday of Advent, which is December 14. Paul, we’d be grateful if you read it for us, please. [00:32:23] Paul: Sure. I would love to. When John heard in prison what the Messiah was doing, he sent word by his disciples 3 and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or are we to wait for another?” 4 Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, those with a skin disease are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have good news brought to them. 6 And blessed is anyone who takes no offense at me.” 7 As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 What, then, did you go out to see? Someone dressed in soft robes? Look, those who wear soft robes are in royal palaces. 9 What, then, did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written, ‘See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.’ 11 “Truly I tell you, among those born of women no one has arisen greater than John the Baptist, yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. [00:33:45] Anthony: So, Paul, what does this text reveal about Jesus? This is where we always, this is what we come looking for in Scripture. What does it tell us about Jesus and, therefore, the Trinity? [00:33:56] Paul: One is Jesus loves; Jesus, he loves. Jesus loves John the Baptist. Anthony: Yes, he does. Paul: His cousin, he loves him. And he loves the people who are there listening to him. And he is helping their eyes to become open. And also, John is sending him a message from his disciples to ask Jesus, “Are you the one?” You know, “Here I am.” He’s in prison. “Are you the one?” And Jesus says, “Tell him what and tell him what you hear.” And he doesn’t give him a theological conversation. He says, “Watch. Look at the fruit of my life.” And he begins to tell all the ways and the things that are happening around him and his activity in them. So, Jesus is not a theologian. He is an expressor of his love relationship with the Father and the Spirit. He does not try to convince you. In fact, he hides things in parables a lot. Anthony: Yes, he does. Paul: And so, he’s not trying to convince you intellectually. He’s inviting you relationally. And so that tells us a lot about God. God is not out to create theological works so that you can see and begin to understand. He is actually in you to love you. And that tells us about, and we’re talking about, a God who is human, fully human. Anthony: Yeah. Yes. Paul: And he’s, “John, don’t take offense. Don’t be offended. Watch what I’m doing.” Anthony: And yeah, talk to me about that. Is it, I’m just curious, can people declare the name of Jesus but then turn around and take offense to what he taught? Paul: I’ve done it a lot. Anthony: Okay. There you go. Paul: In my past, I would take literally a talking snake more than the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is offensive for those of us who’ve eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil all our lives. And so, it’s no, love your enemies, do good to those who despitefully use you, on and on.  If that’s not offensive, remember, Jesus said, “Eat of my flesh and drink of my blood,” and everybody is so offended that they leave, except for a few. Jesus turns to them and says, “So are you going to leave?” And Peter’s, like, “Where else do we have to go?” Anthony: Yeah. Paul: No, we’ve got nowhere to go. And that, and nobody’s talking words that contain life — life, the tree of life, who is Jesus. And so, yeah. What’s the value of offence? You look at the world around us right now and you see all the fear that is coming to the surface. What’s the value of that? Well, let me tell you. The commitment of God, the Holy Spirit has come to convict, and that’s the Greek word to expose. And the unexposed is the unhealed. So, it is a great thing, in one sense, that all of your crap is coming to the surface, because without that exposure, the possibility of healing is not there. And the commitment of God is that everything that you’re involved in that is not of love’s kind, is going to be exposed so that you can be healed. And in that healing, you’ll become fully human, fully alive, and that is the action, that is the work of the Spirit. So, offended? [00:37:51] Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s end game, like you said, it’s healing, not shame. Paul: No. Anthony: There’s no shame in God’s game. He’s not bringing things to the surface. Go look at that one. Look how messed up they are. [00:38:03] Paul: No. [00:38:04] Anthony: It’s to heal it. [00:38:05] Paul: I saw this t-shirt that a friend had and she wore this. And you look at it, and it’s got Jesus peeking around the corner and saying, “I saw that.” It’s a great shirt! And it’s the shame-basis that we carry with us that also has to be exposed. And God, just, he … at some point you can begin to understand that his character is trustworthy. But his behavior is certainly not and because our expectations are such that God will not live within the context of them. And as a result, we get offended and disappointed and God doesn’t show up the way that we want God to show up and we create theologies to try to manage God and are continuously disappointed. But that’s exposure. [00:39:01] Anthony: Yeah. And as I look at the text, just a final word, Jesus is a man full of integrity. Because as I’m looking at verse 5, didn’t he preach when he first went into the synagogue? The blind would get their sight. The lame would walk. Paul: Yeah. Anthony: People would be healed. The dead would be raised; the poor would have good news. He’s living what he preached, what he said he was going to do, he did. Paul: Yep. Anthony: And this is the thing about God. I’ve always thought, if God in Jesus Christ predicts that he’s going to die, going to be buried and raised to newness of life, and he’s going to take all of us with him, like, trust that guy. Like that God is, we know he’s pretty great. And look what he pulled off. Let’s follow that one. He knows what he’s up to. [00:39:41] Paul: And that’s how Jesus announced his presence by reading from Isaiah that passage. And so, his reference here to John is exactly to that passage and how he announced himself. [00:39:58] Anthony: Alright, let’s transition to the third passage of the month. It is Matthew 1:18–25. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday of Advent, December 21. Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been engaged to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found to be pregnant from the Holy Spirit. 19 Her husband Joseph, being a righteous man and unwilling to expose her to public disgrace, planned to divorce her quietly. 20 But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “Look, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means, “God is with us.” 24 When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife 25 but had no marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son, and he named him Jesus. So, Paul, the incarnation of our Lord is staggering. Which is an understatement. And so, I just wanted to give you some time to just riff on the Word becoming flesh and if you can, make it personal, how has the incarnation of Jesus impacted your worldview, your life, your living? [00:41:44] Paul: I’m going to do you one better. I’m going to read a poem by my friend David Tensen out of Australia. And it’s called The Incarnation. And I think it says it in a way that you and I cannot. We can’t find the words for it. Anthony: Yeah. Paul: Because we, apart from the Incarnation, there is no hope. There’s absolutely no hope. And here’s how I like to put it. Unless we see an incarnation of something, we won’t believe that it’s possible. Unless we see somebody who lives an abundant life, we won’t believe it’s possible. We will wait, hoping that when we die, we will experience it. This is the whole Hebrew scriptures coming up to the Incarnation — they were looking. Read Hebrews 11. They were seeking. They were looking for something that they couldn’t grasp. And this is why Jesus says, among all men born, John is the greatest, but the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. That’s because Hebrews 11 says, we got it. We got to see the revelation of God in Jesus. If you want to have a clear view of the nature of the Father, it’s Jesus, and I cannot, and you cannot. I know you, and Anthony, you talk about this all the time. You have to put on the lenses to look at the nature of God, the lenses being Jesus. That’s when everything came together. And those who are inside of that, in that sense, are greater because they have now been embraced in the reality of the Incarnation — God, fully becoming human, being fully God. So here is David’s poem, David Tensen. The Incarnation by David Tensen Take all your hope and longing; cover it in blood, urine, faeces, straw. Cut the chord to your dreams with a field knife or clenched jaw. Here lays the King of the Jews. Crowned between thighs, Held in arms of exhaustion. Bathed with tears, sweat and the soft tones of a mother singing songs of deliverance between breaths as the King of Glory feeds folded at her breast. What newborn would you not bend a knee for? What labouring mother would not make room for? Here’s how God chose to be with His beloved; in a state of utter surrender and dependence; making His way into the world through a uterus. Trading a heavenly crown for one of mucus. Later, finding woven thorns pushed in its place as, once again, God surrenders to the fulness of humanity’s mess – reconciling it all to Himself; counting no soul’s sin against them. [00:45:05] Anthony: Trading the crown for one of mucus. Wow. Hallelujah. And you had said earlier, Paul, where is Jesus? Where is he? Where’s the kingdom? And this text tells us that he is Emmanuel, he is God with us. We see it in Jesus. And we know it’s present by the Spirit, that God is here, he’s there. And the church has this doctrine of omnipresence, which makes separation by the way illogical. It makes no sense. Right? He’s here. Hallelujah. And I guess you’ve been talking about this all along, but what else would you say about how this reveals the Father’s heart, that God is here? [00:45:56] Paul: I just got back from Switzerland and a year ago, I baptized a 13-year-old, part of a family that has adopted me as sort of a grandfather. I was involved in a documentary about sexual abuse with the mom, and this year I got to baptize the oldest of the three daughters. When I left, the young, the middle daughter hugged me and she said, I’m next. And so, they’re trying to make me come back — which I will — but when I was baptizing both those girls, a thought that had never occurred to me, occurred to me. And that, say, in the 13-year-old, who dwells in that 13-year-old? It’s the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; it’s Jesus who dwells within her. And what is in Jesus? Not anything that has come into being has come into being apart from him. So, the entire cosmos is in him and he is in her, this 13-year-old. And as I laid her down into the water, waters of death, and up into the true life of resurrection, in that symbol, I am again reenacting the baptizing of all creation in Christ in this 13-year-old girl. What does that tell me about the Father? It tells me that the Father is all in. All in! [00:47:30] Anthony: Yes. [00:47:30] Paul: And that there is no separation between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And when people look at the symbol of the trinity and you ask them where are we? Where are we in that design? And some people might say, we are in the middle, but guess what? There’s nothing in the middle, nothing. Where are we? We are in Christ. That’s how our participation is sealed — in him. And all of creation was created in him. And the Father loves the Son, loves the Son, and therefore loves us in that one picture. All in. [00:48:26] Anthony: All in. All in. Everything hinges on the love of the Father to the Son, and we get to receive that. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. We’re in the home stretch. We have one more text to go. It’s Hebrews 2:10–18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the first Sunday after Christmas, December 28. Paul, read it for us, please. [00:48:40] Paul: I would love to. 10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 12 saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.” 13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Here am I and the children whom God has given me.” 14 Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. 16 For it is clear that he did not come to help angels but the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself was tested by what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested. [00:50:12] Anthony: He’s able. Let’s think for a moment about sanctification. I’m curious from your perspective, is that an ongoing spiritual formational reality, or is it an already accomplished work, or is it both? And I’m referring to verse 11, and what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ? [00:50:34] Paul: You tell me. Who’s the church? It’s human beings. So, what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ? It’s to tell the story of being a burning bush. It is both a finished work and it is an ongoing work. We were in Christ and when he died, we died — finished work. When he rose, we rose — finished work. When he ascended, we ascended — finished work. And yet in space and time and we work it out, because our ability to say no to God matters as much as our ability to say yes. Anthony: Wow. Paul: Because apart from that love cannot exist. We would just be part of a machine. And so, God respects and protects our ability to say no. And yet in us continues to work moment by moment, day by day, to cleanse us, to heal us from all the detritus of the consequences of our turning away from love, all the ways that we have not been able to trust. And so there is a continuous work that is going on and God doesn’t build those kinds of roads going nowhere. Our hope is in Jesus. Our residence is in Jesus, whether we acknowledge it or know it or not. And that is true for all of creation that was created in him. And so, the church — we bear our martyrdom, right? Our witness, our martýrios — our death. There is a — give me a second and I’m going to look at one passage, hold on. So, I’m going add one little section to the lectionary today and here’s what it is. It’s 2 Corinthians 2:15–17. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one those who are being saved, it is a fragrance from death to death and to the other, those who are perishing, it’s a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things. “To those who are being saved, it’s a fragrance and aroma from death to death” — that is dying to ourself, centeredness to our addictions, to our idolatry of fear, to our attachments, to our nationalism, to our money and compliments and approval, dying to future tripping, to false selves and their names, and their self-protection and self-promotion, dying to reputation and so on, and so on, and so on. This is a “death to death” experience. To those who are perishing, it’s an aroma from “life to life.” It’s the incarnation of love and goodness and kindness, the presence of love, the burning bush that attracts by its very nature, the anomaly of something not dying. The glimpse of something alive, of a different world, of an incarnation, of “life to life.” Who is sufficient for these things? If that’s a shout that Paul cries out, deep soul joined by spirit and mouth, by the body, the wonder of which the mind bows, it’s too much. That’s what Paul was saying. It’s too much. That’s what we’re talking about, Anthony. That’s the process of sanctification. And on any given day, in any given moment, I may be perishing as I’m holding on to crap, and at any given moment, I may be moving from “life to life.” There are some choices that I make and some embracing that I do, some extending of forgiveness that is “life to life.” And people can smell it. They can smell it. And they can also smell the death stuff. And so, when you’re in this world and you take a whiff of the news, you can smell the perishing. And when they suddenly have a little story about someone who went out of their way to go help someone with something, you can smell it. That is the presence of the God who is love by nature and who is in us, in union with us, to express that nature into the cosmos. [00:55:11] Anthony: It’s not natural to love someone well. Paul: It is natural! Anthony: At least well from the standpoint of when I’m dying to self. It’s just, it’s hard to put somebody, to esteem somebody as greater than me, to put their needs above mine. It’s only by the indwelling the Holy Spirit. I know me, Paul. Yeah. I can’t do it. [00:55:36] Paul: But it’s natural. We’ve got to get to the place where we recognize that that kind of existence, that ability to love is natural to the truth of who we are. And then we can agree and join into it as natural and you will find in doing so that your world will change. It’s when we are thinking that we are in an ongoing forever battle, that our nature is such that it is polluted to begin with, that we’ve got to struggle and strive in all this. That is not natural. [00:56:08] Anthony: Yeah. And that’s why I really appreciate Eugene Peterson and thinking about discipleship because we often think of it as becoming something we’re not. Whereas I look at it as God is returning us to ourselves. That’s exactly who we truly are. Paul: That’s exactly right, Anthony. Anthony: And sometimes that doesn’t feel so great. And that can happen even in the midst of suffering. And I did want to ask you about this. We know that suffering is universal. It is part of our participation in our Lord. We’ve all been touched by it. So, I just want to ask you as a closing word, what difference does it make that we have a great high priest who is human, who in his person is in the place where divinity and humanity are united, who understands our humanity and who is super over abundant in his mercy? What difference does it make? [00:57:03] Paul: It makes a difference when we think about where this high priest dwells. If we think that the high priest is somewhere up there, over there, out there, then it doesn’t make any difference. Not really. It’s more of a thought experiment. But when we recognize that this high priest is in union with us and continuing to fill up his own sufferings in us, that changes things. That means that I have a certainty of the nature of this one who refuses to leave me alone in my suffering. That uniting with my suffering means that I’m never alone to it or in it, and that Christ in me continues to fill up his sufferings and we get to join him in that, which is the way that love expresses itself into the world. And then I know I’m not alone. And that the redeeming genius who is suffering in me, with me, we together in participation, will love in such a way in the midst of this, that we will be the presence of love in any situation, some which are so hard. And I know those who are listening, some of you out there, you are in the midst of incredible rocky times. And been there. Hellish. I’m sad with you. A lot of it you didn’t ask for. And I’m saying, look, you’re not alone. There’s no way that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will ever disregard what is going on in your world, will ever abandon you to what is going on in your world. I will never ever, ever, never ever leave you or forsake you. That is the promise of the one who suffers with us. [00:58:58] Anthony: Thank you, Lord. Paul. I love you, man. Paul: Love you, too. Anthony: And I want to remind you of something you did 10 years ago. It came to my mind. I knew we were going to have this conversation. And you probably won’t remember this, but I was about to leave on a trip with my wife Elizabeth to San Diego. And just before I closed my laptop, I was on Twitter at the moment and you had posted that you were going to be in San Diego for a book signing. And I thought, oh, I’m just going to send him a note and see if he has any free time and come hang out with us at the house where we’re going be for some meetings. And, lo and behold, I thought there’s like a half percent chance that you’d be available. But you were, and you came and you spent hours with us just talking and sharing life and it was wonderful. And it’s just one of those moments that tells me who you are, who you know you are in Christ, and you’re just so generous with yourself and your time. I’m just very grateful for who you are. [00:59:55] Paul: How cool is that? I have no, it is, I have no memory of it at all. Anthony: It’s true. It happened. Paul: One of my own suffering places is that four years ago, [inaudible] left frontal lobe, focal point epilepsy. And I live my life on walking on trap doors, but one of the things that has impacted is my data center. And so, I have a horrible time with names and so I’m in the middle of this kind of world. And so, suffering is not something that I don’t know about in terms of my history and in terms of my ongoing real world, day by day. There’s no fear in love, and I have no fear of any of these things. And I live it one moment at a time. So, I thank you, Holy Spirit, that I got to be honored in such a way 10 years ago as to be able to spend time with y’all. And that just blesses me. Thank you. [01:00:57] Anthony: Oh, you bless us. And I want to thank the team that also blesses us. A podcast doesn’t happen, poof, out of vapor. There’s a team behind this. So, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman, thank you for your gifts and the way that you share of yourselves to make this possible. As is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we end with prayer. And Paul, we’d be delighted if you’d say a word of prayer for us. [01:01:20] Paul: It’s always an honor to do so. Papa God and Jesus and Holy Spirit. Our words are certainly lacking, but you know our hearts because you dwell there and you are clearing away all the poisons and the indoctrinations and the toxic stuff. Sometimes we think too slowly. But one thing I’ve come to know about you is that you won’t heal us in such a way that would harm us. And so, Jesus like you did, entered into all of our stuff, all of it in your humanity, you went down to the depths of our delusions and our places where we cry out, “Where are you?” And you cried out our cry, but you made the choice to trust. So today we abandon our whys. Why this and why that? And we enter into your goodness in such a way that the question is now what? What now? In the middle of our losses, in the middle of our sufferings in this moment, Holy Spirit, show us what now. And I thank you. I thank you for all the millions of people who are in each moment participating in your affection, to love the one who is in front of them as Reuel and Anthony are involved in this and all the others. I know it’s an expression of your union with them participating into the world in love. So are the millions of others and the ones who are listening to this. I bless you. I bless you in this moment with peace. I bless you in this moment with the arms of affection wrapped around you, that you would sense and feel and touch and taste, that your heart would be emboldened, that you would be able to sit, to sit, to relax inside that embrace. Thank you for your ongoing kindness to each of us. Amen. Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Paul Young—Year A Advent 2-Christmas first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Dwight Zcheielle. Dwight is Professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary. He’s the author of several books, including Embracing the Mixed Ecology: Inherited and New Forms of Christian Community Flourishing Together, also Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future, and Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the Church in America. Dwight is an ordained minister in The Episcopal Church. Dwight, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. It’s so good to have you, and since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we’d like to know you a little bit, your story, projects you’re currently working on, and how you’re participating with the Lord Jesus Christ. [00:01:40] Dwight: Thanks so much, Anthony, and it’s just so great to join you all. I grew up in a secular home in California. I’ve lived in Minnesota now for 20 years, and so it’s pretty crazy that a Californian would survive 20 Minnesota winters. But I grew up really in a story that I think is pretty common now in American culture around really writing your own story, if you will, and having to go your own way and create your own sense of community and find meaning and purpose where you can. And I encountered Jesus and the gospel as a kind of young adult, and it really revolutionized my life, freed me, and reoriented me in every way, really. And so, my work as a missiologist really comes out of a concern for those neighbors who haven’t heard the gospel and how the church can join those neighbors, love them, listen to them, and faithfully witness to the story we have in Jesus which is life. And so, that’s what my work has been on, and I’ve done that partly through just being involved in the missional church conversation and the kind of later stages of that in the early 2000s into the 2010s when that was a primary conversation going on around the church in America. And then spending quite a few years really trying to figure out, okay, if we work out the theology on it’s God’s mission that we’re participating in, what does that really look like in practice? And so, I spent a lot of time working with local churches trying to figure out what are the practices that help them actually join God’s mission in their place — learned a lot along the way. And then recently I’ve been working on this kind of framework which comes from the UK, of thinking about a mixed ecology, of lots of different forms of church, traditional inherited church, as well as church plants, fresh expressions, creative out of the box forms of church that are needed to reach the variety of people who are in today’s neighborhoods. And so, that’s the last book that I did with my wife, Blair. And just trying to help expand some imagination around that and think about how these pieces fit together. [00:04:08] Anthony: It’s fascinating work and it really does lead into the question I wanted to ask you of particular importance to me. I’ve seen evangelism done in such a way, Dwight, that it felt like it was completely unhitched with a faithful theology. And what I saw happening, and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this, the church could end up doing mission work for God, like “God, look what I’ve done. I’ve slayed the dragon. I’ve saved all these souls,” but without realizing the vitality of mission with God, that it’s God’s mission and that he’s at work in the neighborhood by his Spirit. So, is that a fair assessment? And I’m just curious, how should Christology theology inform missiology. Do you address it in your book Participating in God’s Mission, and if so, how did it work out? [00:04:58] Dwight: Yes. What you’re describing is I think what in the field of missiology is sometimes talked about as a kind of Copernican revolution that happened really in the mid-twentieth century around thinking about God’s mission and God as the primary missionary, if you will, that God’s Trinitarian life is a missional life. It’s a life that’s not closed in on itself, but it’s creative and outward reaching, ecstatic in the true kind of Greek sense of that, reaching beyond. And that it is primary in fact. And that we know that that mission through Christ and the Spirit, Irenaeus’ “two hands of God in the world today,” right? And so, the church exists as a kind of product of and participant in that mission, which means that rather than the church having to think about, okay, “what do I need to do for God?” as you’re mentioning, it’s “what is God doing?” How might we discern what God is actively doing in our context? And then, how might we join in? And one of the really important pieces of that then becomes that discernment is really the primary posture, if you will, for the church. So, I like to talk about, the Holy Spirit should be the primary leader of the church … [00:06:21] Anthony: Yes. [00:06:22] Dwight: … not any human leader, but the Holy Spirit. And then the responsibility of those of us who are entrusted with leading local churches is to help the community discern and join what the Holy Spirit is doing and to witness to Christ into the gospel in an embodied way, in joining what God’s doing in the neighborhood. And I think the backdrop to this, which I think we should just name is in Western cultures, the kind of secular imagination that comes out of modernity where it’s so easy for people to simply experience the world with God’s agency and presence bracketed out, if you will. And it’s a long kind of philosophical history of that going back into the Enlightenment, which brought many gifts and also some real liabilities, if you will, to thinking about this question of how the church engages with neighbors. And so, part of what we need to renew and rediscover is imagination for God’s active presence in agency in our local contexts. And then the capacity to test the spirits, to faithfully discern and participate in those, the movement of God in our place. And that’s something that I think for a lot of local churches, they’re simply not organized around or their culture is not organized around. It’s still often, mission is something we do over maybe 5% of the time with 5% of the people in some programmatic way, rather than a more holistic understanding where all of the whole people of God, all disciples, are called to discern and join in in all of life wherever God’s placed us with what God is doing and to be witnesses there. And, of course, we love those kinds of organized outreach activities that we might do. And they’re wonderful, and they need to be complimenting a much more holistic, whole of life kind of approach. [00:08:32] Anthony: Preach. I’m really compelled by this conversation. I’d love to dig deeper. Maybe we can have a podcast at some point and just talk about this matter. But just really quickly, I’m curious you talked about practical expressions of this. Can you give our listening audience maybe a practical way of group discernment? Say there’s a fresh expression of church. What would you advise, guide a church to do to really discern what the Lord is doing in their context? Any practical advice? [00:09:05] Dwight: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think it has to begin with prayer and Scripture and a real capacity to pay attention to God’s presence and movement. So, prayer is again, … and I think multiple ways of thinking about prayer. I think the rich variety of traditions in the Christian, in our Christian heritage around how do we develop our ability to attend to God, right, to listen to God through prayer, is really important. So, there’s lots of ways we can do that. But then we need to make sure that the primary story shaping our engagement with our neighbors and thinking about this is in fact the biblical narrative and not some other story, because we live in a culture that is very transactional. It’s very much about fixing and it’s very easy then to reduce our neighbors to objects either of attraction into our organized church activities or fixing — they’re our neighbors, we need to fix them, because there’s something wrong with them, right? Rather than, I think, a more holistic understanding of, God’s agency is primary. Our neighbors are agents as well, or subjects. And we’re called to be in relationship with them — that’s through listening and loving. And so, yes, some concrete practices that come out of that. I think developing our prayer capacity, engaging in scripture. And there are a variety of ways that I’ve seen that happen in communities beyond a kind of more formal Bible study. So often that could be simply like a practice that I’ve used a lot. It’s called dwelling in the Word, and it’s a very simple form of lectio divina in community that builds people’s ability to engage Scripture with a kind of wondering curiosity. And then I think another piece to practice is simply intentionally paying attention to your daily life, right? So that might be, whether it be prayer walks, or whether it be investing some presence in relationship in a particular neighborhood space maybe you’re already connected in, but that you want to bring a kind of spiritual attention to and wonder about where God might be leading you to listen to or love or draw close to various neighbors. And I think the whole Fresh Expressions journey and a lot of those kinds of contextual Christian communities that are emerging right now began very intentionally not with trying to track people into a worship service, but really with joining, listening, loving, forming community, building trust. And out of that, then, discerning what does church need to look like with these people in this place. And it’s so easy. I think we often, as church leaders, we have great ideas for what church should look like. We dream them up and then they may be very different from what actually the Holy Spirit wants to create with particular people that we have in our neighborhoods. [00:12:13] Anthony: Yeah, recently I saw a survey that only 70 or 77% of Americans state that they have not spoken to a single neighbor in the last two years. And my experience is that often the church mimics culture. And if that’s the case, we can see why we have so many issues, right? That’s got to change. We’re called to love our neighbors and that means like our literal neighbors like the person that’s sleeping 40 feet away in the next house. They’re my neighbor. Sometimes I think we can get lost behind everybody’s my neighbor, so, I love all my neighbors, but I don’t engage anybody in particular. But we’re called to love our literal neighbor. That’s again, a fascinating discussion. Bless you for the work that you’re doing, Dwight. Let’s move on to our lectionary text for the month. Our first text is 2 Thessalonians 1:1-4, 11-12. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. This is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 26 in Ordinary Time, November 2. We must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. 4 Therefore we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith during all your persecutions and the afflictions that you are enduring. 11 To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Dwight, if you were giving an expository sermon from this text, what would you herald to the congregation? [00:14:20] Dwight: It’s a beautiful text and I love the spirit of it. And what I want to begin with is how the text begins with this posture of gratitude and thanksgiving. Right now, it seems like in American culture, one of the predominant emotions is resentment, which I think of almost as the opposite of gratitude. There’s a lot of grievance. There’s a lot of divisiveness. There’s a lot of sense of scarcity, right? That’s zero sum, that we were all competing and if someone else is thriving, that means that I might, must not be, they’re taking it away from me. There’s all kinds of dynamics and you see it across the political spectrum right now. So, to begin with a posture of gratitude, like giving thanks for this growth of faith that Paul is seeing in these sisters and brothers in love. It’s increasing, which — this is the game, right, that we as Christians are playing. It is growth in faith and it is love for one another and for our neighbors. And there’s a simplicity to that, that I think it’s easy to lose sight of, right? Growth in faith is about growth in our capacity to be led by God, to place our trust in God, to obey God, to be dependent upon God in a culture that says, informs us, has these messages around that you should really just be only self-reliant, look out for yourself. You can do it yourself. Justify yourself, right? I think we have a massive culture right now of self-justification in a lot of ways. So, growing in a faith abundantly and loving one another is we learn how to live into, if you will, the life of the Trinity, this life of love that is also about differentiation. It’s like we don’t need to be the same, and yet we need, we can love one another and be joined in one community. So, the fact that Paul is boasting about their love and faith among other churches is I think a beautiful idea. If there’s anything to boast of, right? Paul boasted of his suffering and he boasts of other people’s faith and love rather than all the things that we might be tempted to boast about in a self-justifying way. Self-justification is very much there in the church too right now. We think about it as all the ways in which, again, we’re trying to save ourselves or do right or deal with whatever sense of guilt we have on our own. And this is a text that just comes out of a spirit, I think, of freedom, spirit of love, spirit of celebration. And then I want to just touch on verse 4, there, the end of verse 4: “During all your persecutions and the afflictions that you’re enduring.” So, it’s not okay, this is coming, that you’re growing in love and faith because everything’s just so easy. It’s actually very much in the midst of suffering and resistance and persecution. And I think there’s a piece to that’s important to keep in mind as well. There’s a lot of resistance, just suffering happening generally for people in our world today. We don’t need to remind anyone of that, but also the resistance of what does it mean to follow Jesus in this culture that I think is increasingly post-Christian and many ways, increasingly kind of neopagan right now resembling more in some weird ways, the culture of the first century, Roman imperial context. So, if I were preaching on this text, I would wonder what does it mean to live as a person of gratitude amidst resistance, persecution, suffering that happens. And to be free to grow and love even amidst that. And I think so often. We look back in our lives on those moments when we’ve faced resistance and adversity and we say, okay, those were the times I did grow in love and they’re painful, but what might God be doing in your life right now through those tough passages to grow you in faith and love? [00:18:55] Anthony: I saw quote just recently, and I’m not sure who the source was, but it said, “Gratitude is the wine of life, and so, it’s okay to get drunk drinking gratitude. Live a life of gratitude.” And I agree with you, brother. Verse 11 says, “God will make you worthy of his call.” What in the world does that mean, and how do we interpret that? [00:19:21] Dwight: Yeah, it’s like another great text in this: “God will make you worthy of his call.” I think, again, just to go back to this basic theme of gratitude and gift. So, I hear this as a message about grace. Again, you don’t need to make yourself worthy of God’s call by being the one who’s just trying harder or again, justifying yourself. It is God’s gift. God will make you worthy. You don’t need to do it. It’s God’s work. And I’m a real kind of student of the reformation in the great breakthrough that Martin Luther had around justification as gift in this as I hear this text, so that we have this gift. God’s making us worthy of his call. And then it goes on to say, we’ll fulfill it by his power. By his power, not our power. By his power. Every good resolve and work of faith. So, you have this sort of justification then vocation, service, loving, work of faith that follows from that dynamic going on in this text that I think is really important. And I think for us to be really clear about that. Again, I just think there’s not enough grace in today’s culture, in today’s society by any stretch, and not enough grace so often in the church as well. It’s so easy for churches to simply ask people, “What are you doing to make yourself worthy of God,” rather than just going back over and over again, “God will make you worthy.” And that is, it’s God’s action. It’s God’s claiming and calling, and then it’s God’s power that will bring forth from us those good works, those works of service so that God’s, that Jesus’ name may be glorified. I love again how Paul ends this passage with “according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ,” just in case you missed it. Let’s come back to the grace thing. [00:21:37] Anthony: Yeah, this reminds me of a statement that Eugene Peterson made about discipleship, and I see a connection here, and what he said at first can sound counterintuitive because he said discipleship is focusing less and less on ourselves and more and more on Christ. And it’s his work. It’s his power, it’s his presence. And yes, we have to be attentive to what the Lord is doing in us. I don’t think Eugene would ever say, you’re not attentive to that, but let’s fix our gaze on him. He’s the one who fulfills these things by his power. And that’s what I hear when we come to a text like this. This is God at work in us, right? [00:22:19] Dwight: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I don’t know about you, but I just find that to be great news. Because if it’s up to me, forget it. And I think one of the reasons why we see a real kind of stream of dimension of despair and anxiety in our culture right now is because this theme of grace is less and less present. And I think people who are living in a more secular or neopagan kind of cultural orientation where it’s all up to you to figure it out, it’s all up to you to secure your place — that is an enormously heavy burden to place on people. And the message of grace is just not being heard by people. And in fact, what you get instead is condemnation, judgment all over the place. [00:23:23] Anthony: Yeah. If Romans 8:1 tells us there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, if he doesn’t condemn us, I don’t think he’s calling us to do it. Let it be so, Lord. Alright, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, 13-17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 27 in Ordinary Time, which is November 9. Dwight, we’d be grateful if you read it for us, please. [00:23:56] Dwight: I’d be happy to. As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? 13 But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 For this purpose he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and through grace gave us eternal comfort and good hope, 17 comfort your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word. [00:25:29] Anthony: Amen. I see a theme that constantly is present in Thessalonians, and that is the coming of Jesus Christ, being prepared for the second arrival, an awareness of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I’m curious because sometimes I hear Christians talk about the kingdom to come in its fullness and it’s like we’re waiting around just trying to escape to that, as opposed to the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming, having a Word to speak to us in the here and now. What say you, how do you speak of the second coming of Jesus? [00:26:07] Dwight: Yeah, so I think it’s really important to step back and think about how time is conceptualized in different cultures. And if you think about what’s so powerful about biblical faith is the sense of God acting in history, which is very revolutionary. I think we take it for granted, but compared to so many cultures in the world which see this sort of endless cycles of time repeating itself. But the idea that there is a beginning, middle, and end, if you will, to history, or there are these seasons, if you will, that are up to God is a really powerful biblical teaching. And so, this teaching on the Parousia is a way to stress that. And I always want to approach it with fear and trembling and thinking about the depths of the mystery of all of this, because of course, very much one of the core messages of the Thessalonian correspondence is, okay don’t spend too much time trying to worry about exactly when this is coming, right? This is God’s thing. And so, we need to be living into a new reality in light of that future. But that future is in fact one of the healing and restoration of the whole world. It’s not simply the escape of certain people out of the world, which I think has been one of the ways in which this has been imagined. And often we get a very diminished soteriology is a result of that. And so, I think the idea in our culture, which I think in the modern West, has a kind of narrative of progress that has been built in since the Enlightenment, which in some ways, again, would not have happened without Christianity, without a sense that time has a trajectory — that is really a Christian idea or at least a going back into the Jewish heritage as well — that we live in this culture that says things should be just getting better and better. Humans should be being perfected through technology, education, science, and all this stuff. And of course, that is really over the last century since World War I, in many ways been deeply challenged and disrupted and broken down, and yet it still functions, I think, in many ways. And I think people get surprised when their vision of progress isn’t being realized and people feel like, oh, we’re going back. You hear this language a lot, right? And so, the biblical teaching, which is not progress in that sense of self, human self-salvation or perfectibility through technology, science, or the sell, the state of the market, if you will, but rather that God is in control of history, that God is active in history, and we live in this in-between time where we have this tangible experience of a kind of down payment, if you will, on God’s future, on the kingdom that we experience. We know it. It’s real. It lives in us and among us and around us in different ways. And yet we yearn for, we look for its completion. It’s bringing all of creation to rights and the restoring of relationships that are broken and the healing of all that’s been that’s been wounded and destroyed and all of that. We have that hope that is a proper hope that we can look forward to and we hold it with just incredible humble mystery, a posture of not trying to manage and fix when that future comes, but trusting that it is the ultimate story. [00:30:02] Anthony: Looking at verses 13 through 17, how would you herald the God that’s revealed in Jesus Christ here? [00:30:11] Dwight: Yeah. So again, I love this language of first fruits for salvation and this, again, this stress and this text around God acting to sanctify us through the Holy Spirit, to make us holy, to restore us to holiness, to right relationship with God and each other and the world. And to do that through truth, through a different way of understanding reality that is present in Jesus, right? Jesus as the locus of God’s Word, as the locus of that truth that we know tangibly through his ministry and his presence. And so, again, the idea here that comes through in this of gratitude and God’s action to choose and claim us being primary, I think is really important to stress. And then, this message about glory is also really interesting, too. So, what is the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ? You think about Paul’s cultural context. Glory had certain associations in a Roman imperial context, and it was all about military conquest. Military heroes were glorious. Glory of Caesar and all that. The glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, right? Even using that word, kurios, Lord, which would normally apply to Caesar. Here’s the guy who was crucified shamefully by the Roman Empire. He’s actually the glorious one. How revolutionary this is! So, if our ideas of glory are shaped by human cultures and empires, we will miss the profoundly subversive message here of glory being found in a God who is willing to join us, suffer with us, and for us. And claim us in the very worst of human circumstances. That’s the kind of glory we know that is a love that shows up, that is present and reaches through even the hate that we send and bring to that very person, right? If we’re the ones crucifying Christ and Christ is saying, “Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing.” [00:32:33] Anthony: It’s such good news. Such good news. Yes. Yes, it is. And I like to say to churches, the gospel is good news and so, this is what we need to speak to one another. We speak life. If there’s one place, we should show up each and every week and expect to hear good news, it should be the church of Jesus Christ proclaiming his word. Amen and amen. Let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s 2 Thessalonians 3:6–13. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 28 in Ordinary Time, November 16. Now we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from every brother or sister living irresponsibly and not according to the tradition that they received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not irresponsible when we were with you, 8 and we did not eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day so that we might not burden any of you. 9 This was not because we do not have that right but in order to give you an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: anyone unwilling to work should not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living irresponsibly, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. 13 Brothers and sisters, do not be weary in doing what is right. So, what’s Paul doing here? Is he inviting us to condemn brothers and sisters who are not living as we are living? He gives an imperative in verse 6, to keep away from people living irresponsibly and according to tradition. Easy for me to say. What’s going on here, Dwight? [00:34:40] Dwight: Yeah. So, this is a very interesting text for us to wrestle with in today’s church because we, of course, become very uncomfortable often when we think about, we’re supposed to keep away from our sisters and brothers in Christ. And often a lot of churches for good reasons, really want to have a generous spirit of inclusion and not shame or exclude people. But I think part of what we need to get back to is what does it mean to live faithfully in this in-between time as a community, again, justified and sanctified by Christ in the Spirit for a particular purpose of witness and faithfulness in the world? And I wonder to me if Paul in this isn’t saying, look, there are people who are bringing discredit to the gospel in the ways that they are living again, living irresponsibly. Maybe it’s just that they’re like, hey, we don’t need to do any work because we’re expecting Jesus, to come back and take care of the mess. We’re not going contribute to our own livelihood, to loving our neighbor, to serving our neighbor, to being productive kind of citizens of the community Paul’s saying, “Hey, wait a minute, you’re really missing out on what it means to live in this in-between time and to be the Body of Christ.” And so, I think what’s at stake in this is something really bigger than simply shunning someone. It is about, what is the integrity of our vocation as the church in this time, right? So, when he talks about people living irresponsibly, not doing any work: if to follow Jesus to be a Christian means that we just give up on loving and serving our neighbors, Paul has no patience with that. I think he’s saying, no, no, no. Our witness to our neighbors is going to be not in us withdrawing in that way, but in us actually loving them and serving sacrificially and as Jesus did, and being able to name a reason for the hope that is within us as to why we do that. I think there’s, of course, lots of different moments in church history. We can look and say people withdrew and gave up everything waiting for Jesus to come back. And then were disappointed in some way and I think God doesn’t really want that. God wants us to be engaged with our neighbors in a way that is, you know, generous and fruitful, because that’s where the witness takes place. [00:37:33] Anthony: I love how you talk about vocation in the in-between times and this inaugurated eschatology and this vocation, this calling can feel like work, right? At the end of the day, it can feel like work, a heaviness to it. And Paul gives the statement to not be weary in doing what is right. And so, I’m going invite you to maybe make this personal. Have you experienced weariness in doing good and or witnessed it in others who are close to you? And if so, what would you suggest is underneath that lived experience? And how do we address it? [00:38:23] Dwight: And yeah. Absolutely. I absolutely have experienced weariness like I think so many of us have, right, in trying to both to follow Jesus and to love others in the context of that. And I think underneath that so often is, what’s our relationship with God? How goes your walk with Jesus, in the sense of, are you grounded in the practices of spiritual presence in which God’s grace is made known to you daily in which you can sink into that embrace? I think often when I’ve grown weary, it’s when I have fallen into a pattern of self-justification, when I think it’s all up to me, and I’ve got to just work harder, and my own spiritual rhythms and practices have gotten out of whack. And I’m not keeping a Sabbath or I’m not doing the kind of practices of prayer and scripture reading each day or whatever that would ground me in God’s presence. And I see this sometimes with leaders. It’s very easy as a leader, it can be heady to be at the center of everything and to be the one who’s bringing the energy and really trying to fix everything for everyone and do it all. And I think when we fall into that trap, we very easily grow weary as a way of just missing, I think again, this basic premise that central to faith, a life of faith is trusting that God’s ultimate. And it’s just hard to remember that and practice out of that kind of place. And when we don’t, we really do very easily grow weary and, gosh, we think of a lot of leaders of various sorts, not just pastors, but other kinds of leaders who end up falling into all kinds of misconduct and things like that because they’re just not grounded in that way. And so, I think it’s important when we think about the importance of spiritual practices in our lives not to think of those as justifying activities on a list of many things to do, we’ve got to tick those boxes, but rather as the spaces through which we are rooted in the vine as branches as in the John 15 kind of way of Jesus and his love. And if we’re living out of some other kind of rootedness, some other kind of soil, if you will, ultimately, we’re not going to bear fruit. We’re going end up burning out. [00:40:57] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word. And I agree with everything you said and you just were speaking about rootedness. I have also found in my own personal walk that when I isolate from community in any way, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that’s where weariness sets in. I just firmly believe healing happens in community. And should we be surprised by that we’re made in the image and likeness of a triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit, a community of other-centeredness. That’s where the good stuff happens. And if we isolate in any way, it’s just not good. It’s unhealthy and, at least for me, that’s where weariness and burnout can set in. A word for all of us. Yeah. Our final pericope of the month is Colossians 1:11-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Reign of Christ Sunday on November 23. Dwight, this is one of my favorite passages, so read it well, brother. No pressure. [00:42:02] Dwight: All right, so here we go. May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, so that you may have all endurance and patience, joyfully 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. [00:43:20] Anthony: Whew. That is a doozy of a passage and I want to give you an opportunity to proclaim it, to just riff on the supremacy of Christ. So, preach, preacher. What would you say? [00:43:31] Dwight: Oh, yes. This is such a rich — it’s really almost a hymn, I think, or a poem almost, in the way that it is just so rich. And I think where I want to go in this is thinking about these terms, strength, and power: “may you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power.” His glorious power, right? From God’s glorious power, from Jesus’ power, which again, is power that’s made known in weakness, that’s revealed on a cross, “so that you may have all the endurance and patience, giving thanks to the Father.” So, this sense of needing to endure patiently. And the root of patience, of course, is to suffer, right? [00:44:15] Anthony: Yes. [00:44:16] Dwight: As we’re taking this journey together with an eye toward an inheritance, right? We have this gift that’s coming from God and he’s transferred us from the power of darkness, from the dominion, if you will, of the world and its powers into this kingdom, this reign of his Son, which is this upside-down reign where the crucified God is the ultimate authority, right? It’s turning on its head so much of what we see in our world and its structures. And being transferred into that realm, if you will. I used to live in Virginia and I used to joke when I lived the, in Virginia, as we talked about, the old dominion and the new creation. I like it. And so, even though we were living still the old dominion of Virginia, we were living in the new creation, right? And so, we’ve been transferred into that kingdom, that new creation. And so, what does this yield for us? It’s this redemption, the forgiveness of sins. And I think so many of people in our society are living haunted by the mistakes they’ve made, the estrangement and broken relationships that they suffer and don’t know where to turn for an alternative. How, what’s a way out of this, right? And so, people just double down. Again, as we talked about earlier, grievance or resentment or enmity, hate, and things like that. But Paul here is saying, we have this gift that fundamentally reorients our relationships. And it begins with God’s relationship with us, and that is restored in Christ, right? The forgiveness of sins, the redemption, the freeing from whatever we’ve done, from all of the things that have kept us from God and from one another. We have been transferred into this other reality that we live in. And we have the grace and the power and the strength that comes from that so that we might suffer, endure, serve, minister joyfully, right? This paradox here of freedom and joy that comes through being restored to our kind of relationship that is not about our own kind of self-justification or self-aggrandizement, but really about being joined in Christ to God’s life and then through Christ to one another. We live not to ourselves, but to Christ. There’s so much here in this text. But I think if we can unpack these words and bring it down to earth for regular people, saying, what is it that’s keeping you from the freedom of trusting that God has made you right with God and is freeing you to be right in right relationship with everyone else in your life? [00:47:23] Anthony: You know this song, poem, hymn to the supremacy of Christ is a theological tour de force, right? And so, I’m curious from your perspective, what are the theological implications of the statement — and it’s just an awesome statement — that the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Christ. [00:47:47] Dwight: So, I love, again, I love this. This is about the incarnation and I think so often, Christians don’t take the incarnation as seriously as we should. There’s a kind of lingering, often Docetism, I think, that happens in the church where people are kind of, “Yeah, yeah, God became flesh, but we’re not really comfortable with like, how that actually works.” So, I don’t know if you’re a Chosen fan or if you watch The Chosen, but there’s a remarkable. documentary called Jonathan and Jesus. I don’t if you’ve seen that, but … Anthony: Yes. I haven’t watched it, but I did see it advertised. Dwight: So, it’s about Jonathan Rumi, who of course is the actor who plays Jesus in The Chosen. And it’s a little documentary following around his own story. It is really quite remarkable. He’s a faithful disciple of Jesus himself. But what’s powerful to me watching that is they show him being in public different places in the world and people will just come up to him and almost ask for a blessing from him or almost fall at his feet just because they know he’s Jonathan Rumi, the actor, and there’s something about the image, the presence of, here’s this person, embodying the Lord. Even it’s just in a show that we’re watching on TV, but the physicality of that, the tangible incarnation of that, has this effect on people. And you see these people just weeping and wanting his blessing. And I think there’s something in that that’s a reminder of when Jesus came in human flesh to be with us to heal and redeem and restore us. That is the only way that God could restore human nature from the fall to its glory — that taking, sharing our place, taking our place, if you will, is the way, right? And it’s the kind of crazy claim of Christianity, the scandalous claim, right, from the very beginning it’s been offensive to all kinds of people and yet it is the good news for us that God has joined us in the flesh, right? So, when I read in this about the fullness of God dwelling in Christ, it is to say that — I’ll go back to Martin Luther — that what we know of God’s love is what we see in the life, in the face of Jesus, and particularly in the suffering of Jesus, his willingness to join us in the worst of human experience. And so, if we can trust that God’s love is that deep and that wide, and that profound, to meet us where we are, even when we hate him, even when we crucify him, then there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God, to get to Romans 8, that there is truly nothing that can that can separate us. And I just think that is a message we need to hear over and over again. We have a lot of stories, a lot of figures in our culture that are trying to be literally influencers, to influence us in different ways. And so many of them are leading us astray from God’s way. And so, for us to recenter ourselves and say, if we want to know what ultimate reality is like, if we want to know what human nature, what abundant life, a good life is like, we need to focus on Jesus and we see it in him. We see it in the whole of his life, death, and resurrection. And we are to be conformed into that image through the power of the Holy Spirit, through the practices of the community in life together. [00:52:06] Anthony: Amen and amen. There is no other God behind the back of Jesus. He is the highest resolution image that we have of the very nature and being of God as the writer of Hebrews tells us. And God was pleased to have his fullness dwell in Christ. Hallelujah. Praise God. Gospel Reverb exists to help pastors and preachers and teachers proclaim the word. And I just want to remind our listening audience that I believe the best kind of preaching leaves the congregation talking about Jesus, not the preacher, not the sermon, but Jesus and the text that was read. So, thank you for what you’re doing. Dwight, it’s been a joy having you on the podcast. It’s a delight to meet you and we praise God for the work that he’s doing in and through you, especially helping the church understand how we can be swept up in all the good things God is doing through his mission. Thank you so much for joining us, and I also want to thank our team of people who make this podcast possible, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s a joy to work with them. And again, Dwight, thank you. It’s our tradition on Gospel Reverb to end with prayer, and we’d be delighted if you’d pray for us. [00:53:21] Dwight: Wonderful. Let’s pray. God, our Creator, we just give you thanks for the ways in which you are renewing the world, the ways in which you have joined us in Christ and bound yourself in love to us to heal all that is broken and estranged and all of the things that keep us from living abundantly. And Lord, we just pray that your Spirit may encourage all of the listeners on this podcast, all of those who are entrusted with the sacred work of proclaiming your Word. May you give them confidence and clarity and wisdom. Help them to listen carefully to their people. Help them to be rooted in you and your presence and your love. And Lord, we just pray for all those neighbors outside of our churches who don’t know your gospel, Lord, that all your people may live into their vocations as witnesses and ambassadors of reconciliation. Lord, we pray for encouragement and hope always in the gospel. We pray this in Jesus’ name and in the power of the Spirit. Amen. [00:54:32] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Dr. Dwight Zscheile—Year C Proper 26-28, Reign of Christ first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Rev. Dr. Eun Strawser—Year C Proper 22-25 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Reverend E.K. Strawser. Dr. Strauser is the co-vocational lead pastor of Ma Ke Alo o, which means presence in Hawaiian. These are non-denominational, missional communities multiplying in Honolulu. And, on top of that, she’s a community physician. She’s the founder of `Iwa Collaborative, a consulting and content-developing firm to empower kingdom-grounded leaders to navigate change, grow adaptive capacity, and foster local flourishing. Prior to transitioning to Hawaii, she served as adjunct professor of medicine at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine and of African Studies at her alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, where she and her husband served with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. She’s the author of the book Centering Discipleship, and she and Steve have three seriously amazing children. Eun, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we want to get to know you a bit and one of the ways we’re going get to know you, first of all, I have to ask this question. Which of these three seriously amazing children is your favorite? [00:02:06] Eun: I am a person who does not lie. We do have favorites. All you listeners out there who are parents, you all know you do have your favorite. Ours is our oldest, our three kids know this already, but that is my favorite part of my bio, that last line that Steve and I truly do have three amazing children. [00:02:25] Anthony: It sounds like you do. And we’re praying for the other two. I’m sure they know they’re loved as well, but I’m glad you’re being honest because sometimes we do have favorites and usually for me, it’s the one that’s in the room at the moment. And so, as we get to know you a bit more, what projects are you working on? How are you participating with the Lord Jesus Christ these days, Eun? [00:02:47] Eun: Man, if we don’t model that our everyday kind of choices in living is how we imitate Jesus and not just through, let’s say, “projects”, then I think for any of us who are in leadership positions we would be failing at what we’re actually calling those God has given us lead and love to actually do. So, a big chunk of my day, is obviously caring for my patients here in a local context — that’s my big contribution. But Steve and I love our neighbors. We love the neighborhood that we live in. We don’t just lead and love our congregants in our church, but we love the neighbors who live on either side of our homes and in and down our street. And I think if we learned anything about how Christians are supposed to behave and act throughout the pandemic, that probably was an unveiling of how “Christian” are imitators of Jesus. Are we really at the level of how we do our daily lives? What kinds of decisions do we make on a day-to-day basis? So, we try to, I at least try to, put that in the forefront. [00:03:53] Anthony: Yeah, I’m amazed that as I looked over your bio, all the things that you’re doing and involved in beyond just your family, which I know is a big priority for you as a doctor. By the way, can I get a free consultation? Because there’s something that’s been concerning me. No, I’m playing. I’m playing. Eun: Get in line. Anthony: Right. Right. As a doctor and embedded in the community that way, how has that helped you as a pastor, as a leader of leaders within your church environment? Just curious about how that serves the neighborhood. [00:04:27] Eun: Yeah. I think that, especially here in Hawaii, if you’re not locally rooted in any kind of field of work that you do, then there’s a huge suspicion about why you’re here. I’m not from Hawaii originally. My family immigrated from South Korea during like the third wave of the Immigration Act lifting up so that my family and a lot of East Asians were immigrating to predominantly the East coast. So, I did most of my growing up and adulting in Philadelphia, in West Philadelphia in particular. Everyone’s having the song go through their heads right now. But then about 15 years ago, we moved our three kids, and my husband and I, we moved to Hawaii. And Hawaii has this thing about it. You don’t have credibility or a trust that you actually contribute to the community unless you’re here for 20 years. So even 15 years sound like a long time, but we’re still five years shy of what is culturally accepted as okay. You’re not just here transitioning. You’re here to actually be a part and with our community. So, I feel like being able to doctor on top of pastoring in church planting has given me a more sense of a deeply rooted presence for the folks here in Hawaii. It’s helped. [00:05:51] Anthony: We’re so thankful, as Paul talked about, that we participate in the sufferings of Christ, that you’re suffering in paradise in Hawaii. Thank you for doing that for the sake of the gospel, Eun. But I did want to ask you —I know you’ve written a book and you have, if I’m not mistaken, another book coming out soon, and that’s the one I want to ask you about, because I grew up in a pastor-centric church environment and also a work environment where the mindset was, if you want it done right, do it yourself, which doesn’t exactly build teams, does it? But your latest book, You Are Never Meant to Lead Alone, I’m guessing, has to provide a better pathway forward. So, would you tell us about the premise of the book and what your hopeful outcomes will be for the readers? [00:06:34] Eun: Yeah, absolutely. My first book Centering Discipleship, I always say that it was a love letter to my local church. I feel like it is not just a book on discipleship but something that helps to celebrate that when the entire local community gets behind discipleship actually being centered in your community, in your congregation, then it’s the work of that whole team coming alive, all imitating Jesus together. So, a lot of the work that from this new book on You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone really came from that first work. But this new book, really, I always say that it’s a love letter to myself — probably a lot of the suffering and pains, growing pains, unsolicited pain that’s brought about just from leading. Leading is lonely. It’s hard work. It leads to a lot of burnout, and it can also lead to a lot of domineering, hurtful leadership. And so, I really wanted to write not just a leadership story that also centers somebody who might be familiar, similar to me — someone who is a woman pastor, co-vocational who is an immigrant, who is a person of color. All of these things culminating in them — can someone like that also lead? And what kinds of environments can should all people in the church lead? And if you’re taking a look at the first-century church, it really was that nobody was meant to lead alone. That the first-century church really modeled, especially if you read all throughout Acts, that leadership was shared amongst the most unlikely of characters and heroes together. So, it really is a reminder, not a new concept, but a reminder to the church that if you’re burnt out, feeling lonely, or you’re in a situation of domineering leadership, that’s not what church leadership was meant to be like. It’s meant to be shared because power was meant to be shared. [00:08:39] Anthony: It’s fascinating and I know in my church tribe, denominational tribe, we’re talking a lot about team-based ministry, so I think this book will be of great interest. Where would you, in terms of outlets, content outlet, where would you send people to go buy the book? [00:08:56] Eun: Oh, it’s Amazon. Really? [00:09:00] Anthony: Maybe people have heard of it. [00:09:02] Eun: Everything has been on Amazon. Or you can go to IVP also, that’s our publisher. [00:09:19] Anthony: Okay. Again, the book is called You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, and the author is Eun Strawser. Go get your copy. All right, let’s do this. Let’s dive into the lectionary text that we’ll be discussing for this month. Our first pericope is 2 Timothy 1:1–14. I’m going be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 22 in Ordinary Time, October 5. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, for the sake of the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I am grateful to God—whom I worship with a clear conscience, as my ancestors did—when I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 Recalling your tears, I long to see you so that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that lived first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, lives in you. 6 For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands, 7 for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline. 8 Do not be ashamed, then, of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel, in the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace, and this grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 For this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher, 12 and for this reason I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know the one in whom I have put my trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that day the deposit I have entrusted to him. 13 Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard the good deposit entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us. I’m curious, Eun, what role does family have in faith? Because Paul points out how Timothy’s grandmother and mother, were instrumental in his faith. And feel free to make this personal. [00:11:49] Eun: Oh man, even just from that reading, I need to go sit in a corner, have a good cry. It was so beautiful, Anthony. Oh, it feels so convicting, right? Hearing those words — such a personal letter from the Apostle Paul to someone, a young man that he’s invested so much of his life and work and leadership into. So, it’s just beautiful that he talks about, what is your origin story, right? He’s trying to make it really clear to Timothy that one, that his life is not his own, that there is a whole line, a trainload of people who have come before him to get him to this point now. So, I think family is probably a pivotal for two different reasons, especially as imitators of Jesus. I think one is, it really makes a note for us to have to remember, what are the previous sacrifices and sufferings that other people have put in to get us to our point now? I know from my own story I’m one of the first in my family line to become a Christian. But when I go back — and as a young person, I resented the fact that I was one of the first Christians in my family and how can my parents do this? And yet when I sit down and ask them stories and stories about what happened in their own life, I just can’t help but see all of God’s hands caring for them, leading them to the point where they got to know Jesus, even though it was after me, but in the way that it cared for me. One particular example is when I was in my mother’s womb, my parents are really impoverished. I was the last child of many numbers of children and my mom hadn’t told my father that she was pregnant. And she wanted to go and get a secret abortion. At that time in South Korea, it was very shameful, so, nobody talked about it. And, lo and behold, she’s in the cover of night and a person happened to stop her and it happened to be the local village pastor. She wasn’t a Christian back then. It was the first time that she ever even entered the building of a church, and he asked her to come so he could pray for her. And she was very, very nervous and he prayed that this child would, that God would use his child to help his name be known to her family. And this is my mother telling me as an adult and I just think that, oh, all this time God honored, not just me, and saved me and rescued me. But he’s been holding my mom’s hand whether she knew him at the moment or not. He was holding my father’s hand, my grandparents and all of those things. So, I love that Paul reminds Timothy of his, both his mother and his grandmother’s faith, and how much he has gained honor and all the gifts that he has because of that. I think the second point about family is I think that God really emphasizes the fact how we view family. If we don’t begin to, as Jesus-imitators, see family the way that God does, then we will probably contribute to a lot of bias, a lot of competition, a lot of us-versus-them mentality that honestly, that is overdone in the world today. I think the kingdom of God is trying to offer that. If we begin to see family the way that God does, that there’s an open adoption constantly at the ready, God’s constantly welcoming a new family member, a new kid, a new brother, a sister into the fold, I think that we would think about our own families a little bit differently as well. [00:15:37] Anthony: Yeah, I was just sharing with a friend yesterday that thanks be to God that the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to see the family resemblance in others. And once you see that family resemblance, it changes. It changes relationships, it changes the way that you interact with people on social media, right? This is a brother, this is a sister, this is the beloved of God. How dare I not treat them with dignity and respect? And also, I thank God for the brothers and sisters in the faith that God has given us this family. And I just in this moment, Eun, I’m just so grateful for that village pastor and your mom’s receiving of that, willingness to go into an unknown territory so that God could minister to her. Praise God for that. We’re so glad you’re here. What do you think it means to not be ashamed of our testimony of the Lord? It’s stated in verse 8, and I’m just thinking about the times in Scripture where it tells us that God is never going put us to shame. He’s never going leave us at the altar. So, what does it mean to flip that around and not be ashamed of our testimony? [00:16:44] Eun: Yeah, I think testimony is everything, especially in a culture now where storytelling and the narrative is king. I think whatever part of culture that best tells the best story about humanity, about what love is, about what, let’s say, leadership is, or what family is, I think that constantly tells the rest of the world, the rest of culture, how they’re supposed to behave and act and what kinds of decisions they’re supposed to make. And so, testimony which is storytelling, which is storytelling that witnesses the faithfulness and love and kindness and mercy of God — that is king. If there’s anything that any of us as Jesus followers should be really honing in our gifts and strengths and work in, it’s really fine tuning and working on, what is the testimony? Would we be able to give it at a drop of a hat, right? I know in our community being able to give our own testimony or a witness or storytelling, we always say it’s do you know your own story as part of God’s big story? That’s the equipping we do for all of our disciples. And it’s because we really want to prepare and equip all of the Jesus followers in our local community that their story is important, but also that their story is embedded within God’s beautiful story for us and for the world. So, if our testimony is something that we’re afraid of sharing because we think we’re terrible storytellers or we’re not good communicators, what a loss of story, what a loss of narrative — that Christians should be able to be telling the best story, the best narrative about humanity to the world today. [00:18:36] Anthony: It reminds me of Maya Angelou’s quote that one of the great sadness in human existence is an untold story living inside you. That story needs to be told, and like you said, it’s embedded in God’s story. That’s why when I think of the grand narrative of holy scripture, like when we preach and proclaim the gospel how dare us make it boring, because it’s such a fascinating story, right? It is beautiful and it’s fascinating and it’s glorious and I know some of us are maybe not as charismatic as others, but it’s such a magnificent story. Let’s tell it well. Amen. Amen. [00:19:11] Eun: Yeah, and I think it’s also that it shouldn’t just be a small group of people who are professional storytellers who should be equipped to tell God’s story. The whole point is that the full gospel is meant to be shared by everybody, with everybody, right? I can’t do this by myself. I need to equip my local church to know God’s full story, that they practice articulating it, communicating it, not just training and equipping Jesus followers to be good hearers of God’s story. They should be excellent sharers of God’s story. [00:19:45] Anthony: Ooh, yes and amen. The priesthood of all believers, right? All right, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is 2 Timothy 2:8–15. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 23 in Ordinary Time, October 12. We’d be grateful if you read it for us, please. [00:20:09] Eun: Absolutely. Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David—that is my gospel, 9 for which I suffer hardship, even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, so that they may also obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. 11 The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he will also deny us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself. 14 Remind them of this, and warn them before the Lord that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth. [00:21:04] Anthony: Scripture tells us that the Word of God is not chained, Eun, as Paul wrote in verse 9. For me, this seems to be quite the theological statements and more what say you. [00:21:16] Eun: Yeah, I love that if you think about that word “a chaining” most of us can have certain images, right? For some cultures you can think of imprisonment or enslavement. Others, it feels like restriction. But I love that whatever kind of image that comes in mind for us in the word “chain,” the Apostle Paul is saying that God’s Word doesn’t interact that way. It’s not a dealing with any type of enslavement or imprisonment or being restricted — that there’s no bounds with it. It is never chained down. It’s never restricted. It will only do what it’s meant to do — constantly. And so, I love that the Word of God not being chained also doesn’t bear responsibility on us. There’s nothing that we can do to enhance it or limit it — that God’s Word is freely just constantly expanding and growing. It gets more and more beautiful as time goes on. So, I love that Paul’s reminder to Timothy is, I think it really is, a word like, do your best for sure. Keep on proclaiming God’s truth, but don’t worry, your human failures and mistakes will never limit God’s Word. I think the other thing about God’s Word not being chained is that restriction point — that I think that it also is a word to say that God’s Word and God’s story — again, going to that full gospel — is that it needs to be not restricted by just one culture. That whatever locally rooted place that we may all be living in or be ministering in and loving Jesus and loving others in, that the gospel makes sense to that local culture too. That it isn’t some human culture that we’re trying to present, that it’s another effort to colonize or assimilate a different culture. It’s that God’s Word is not chained up or bound up by human deeds or mechanics. That God’s Word is understandable and relatable and beautiful and true in every single local context. [00:23:30] Anthony: Yeah, and I sometimes, this is just a personal pet peeve of mine. I don’t know if you’d agree with me, Eun. But I’ll hear people say we’ve got to make the Word of God relevant. I just find it is relevant and you contextualize it to your situation, but it’s always relevant. And it was relevant then, and it’s relevant now. And as you said, it’s liberating. And I was just pondering a text in Luke chapter 13 where Jesus encounters a woman who’d been bent over for 18 years and he says, “You are set free.” And that’s what God does and that’s what his Word does, right? It liberates people. And if it’s not liberating, it’s not the Word of God because that’s what the Word of God does. It may mess with you at first and it may get all up in your grill, but it sets you free because that’s who God is. I find verse 13 to be so very encouraging. If we are faithless or feeling like we’re not full of faith in one day, we find that Jesus Christ remains faithful. Do you find that encouraging and what would you want to share with our audience? [00:24:36] Eun: Oh man. It’s not meant to be convicting, that’s for sure. Or accusatory. I love that there’s so much mercy. But what a wonderful life and call that God gives us, right, that he’s saying that we are fully capable and able to live a life imitating Jesus, that this is good for us, this is good for our family, this is good for our neighborhoods, this is good for the world around us. But it doesn’t bank on your strength. It doesn’t demand a perfection from you, that you can have bad days and God is full of mercy. This whole thing works. This big project of the gospel transforming all of us in the world around us only works, not because of our strength. It only works because Jesus is faithful, because he’s the faithful one. I think that it’s not meant to be convicting, that it’s supposed to be great encouragement that God is truly with us in this. [00:25:41] Anthony: And he is the faithful one. And what I find is some people are afraid when the gospel, as they would say, gives away too much. We don’t want to be faithful, so of course we don’t. But because we know he is faithful and we live and move and have our being in him, this is a faithful response — to be faithful because he’s so good, right? And so thankful that we can look to Jesus and see not only an example, but the one who abides in us by his Spirit, helping us to be faithful and strong. Let’s move on to our next text. It’s 2 Timothy 3:14–4:5. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 24 in Ordinary Time, October 19. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have known sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work. 4 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I solemnly urge you: 2 proclaim the message; be persistent whether the time is favorable or unfavorable; convince, rebuke, and encourage with the utmost patience in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound teaching, but, having their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths. 5 As for you, be sober in everything, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, carry out your ministry fully. Eun, I’d be grateful for your exegesis of 2 Timothy 3:14–17. Feel free to preach, preacher. [00:27:52] Eun: It’s a hard one, right? I do love that. I think a lot of times when people read this passage, they miss the point. I think that they can misrepresent what Paul is trying to tell Timothy to do. And I think most of the time it’s really for Timothy to just be a good preaching pastor, or a good teaching pastor, right? But no, the biggest thing that the Pastor Paul is telling why he’s talking about what scripture is like and what God’s Word is able to do, right? [00:28:31] Anthony: Yes. [00:28:31] Eun: It really is because he’s saying equip God’s people for every good work. Get them to a point where they are proficient in what it means to be a Jesus follower. That doesn’t necessarily just mean preach to them or teach them a scripture. It means get them ready, get them prepared. Are all of your congregants able to be proficient? Are they competent in not just knowing a lot about God and who Jesus is and those kinds of things, but are they actually competent to live like Jesus? Are they competent and proficient to do God’s good work with their neighbors through their family, in their workplaces, at the coffee shop that they go to regularly, in the grocery store, in neighborhood parties, or neighborhood meetings, right? I think that’s what the apostle Paul is saying, can you do the good work? Can you be faithful and endure and do this good work of not doing God’s work on behalf of your church? It’s can you get your church equipped so that they are doing God’s work together for the sake of the flourishing of the neighborhood around them? I think that’s a strong emphasis to remember that the Apostle Paul is not telling Timothy to be a good preacher. He’s telling him to be a good equipper so that his congregation can participate in the good work that God’s already doing. [00:29:55] Anthony: Yeah, that’s an important word. Paul wrote in Ephesians 4 that our call is to equip the saints for the works of Christ. And I think the pastors moving forward, they really need to be taken a posture of a coach, one who empowers others so that we see the whole body mature into the head who is Christ, right? And what this keeps us from doing is what we talked about earlier from being pastor-centric, right? If we’re equipping the believers, we’re going to do this together. [00:30:31] Eun: You must have already read my book, Anthony. [00:30:35] Anthony: I was going to say, if you need, if you’re a pastor and you need help in this area, I know somebody who runs a collaborative called `Iwa Collaborative. They may be able to help you out with this. As we look on Paul writes to persist in proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times. I get the sense that right now in a post-Christian neopagan world, these are unfavorable times. So, what does it look like, Eun, to persist? [00:31:04] Eun: Isn’t it so encouraging that the same problem that was written about all that time ago, it’s the same problem that we are facing today. I think it’s great encouragement that Timothy and Paul are going through the same persistence in proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times, and so are we. And I love that the apostle Paul gives Timothy a lot of clarity around what that ought to look like, right? He talks a lot about our motivation to lead. Man, that’s so convicting, right? He’s saying, please double check why you lead, why you think God has given you this group of people to lead and love. If it’s for selfish gain and selfish desire, then you probably ought not to lead. But if it’s so that, again you are trying to proclaim God’s truth because you believe that God’s truth is the only transforming power that will actually, in real life, in real time, transform a community of people to also want to participate in what God’s doing in the world around them, man, what a call for all of us. But if it has any inkling of a selfish desire or selfish ambition, and this is why we are fulfilling our call, then we probably should step aside. So, I think that the first thing around proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times is really to review our own motivations as leaders. Do we do this because we think that there’s a personal gain for us in it, we get popularity somehow? We get to have power and control. We just feel good having this mantle. Or do we do it for the sake of other people? I think the second thing about persistence is, I love that it just relies on God’s truth. That if you really stick to proclaiming God’s truth, you don’t have to do this weird, convincing, performative perfection dance. Let God’s Word do its thing. I think that is what the Apostle Paul is telling Timothy — live out God’s truth. Proclaim God’s truth in every way that you are equipping other people or living your own life or making decisions. Like, if you stick close to God’s Word and God’s truth, … that is the way to persevere through unfavorable times. God’s Word is not that popular most of the time. When we are speaking truth against power, that’s not popular most of the time. If we’re naming the fact that there are people who are ostracized and marginalized in society, that’s not popular to talk about. If we talk about that, really, essentially, the gospel is really very comforting, it ought to be comforting to those who are the most uncomfortable in society and make uncomfortable those who experience most comfort in society. That is an upside-down way of thinking, right? It should have an impact. And so, I think that gospel is made for unfavorable times. [00:34:12] Anthony: It is, and I couldn’t help but think of that old statement that the gospel should comfort the afflicted. But it should afflict the comfortable. And that’s what it does, and I’m reading this a great new little book called Preaching in a New Key. And it’s about preaching to post-Christian societies like we’re living in. And the author of the book said this. Are we — going back to what you asked — what is our motivation? Are we motivated because we’re called to preach or are we just offloading trauma? And I was like, whoa. It’s in your face, but it’s true. We’ve got to check ourselves as ministers of the gospel. Is it love? Because that’s the motivation, right? It is love. The love of Christ may manifest in our lives, and that’s why we proclaim this good news in the face of opposition, for sure. Alright friends, we’re down to our last text. Time is flying by. It is 2 Timothy 4:6–8, 16–18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 25 in Ordinary Time, October 26. Would you read it for us please? [00:35:30] Eun: As for me, I am already being poured out as a libation, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. 8 From now on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing. 16 At my first defense no one came to my support, but all deserted me. May it not be counted against them! 17 But the Lord stood by me and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion’s mouth. 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. [00:36:17] Anthony: Amen. “But the Lord stood by me and gave me strength.” Those are such good words. What would you say to Christians who want to declare with confidence like Paul did, “I fought the good fight.” Maybe they haven’t finished the race yet, but they’re running the race faithfully. What gives Paul the right to make such a bold claim? [00:36:37] Eun: Oh, I’m like crying in my little corner again, reading that passage. I actually think that it’s what Paul has been talking about all along. It’s that it’s because Jesus has already done that work. He’s already fought that fight. He’s already finished that race. And again, he is the one who is most faithful. So, I feel like Paul’s bold claim isn’t really about him. His boldness and his confidence still rest in the fact that he can do all of these things and proclaim all these things about himself because he’s relied in utter, utter dependence on Jesus the Christ. [00:37:17] Anthony: Preach. Yes. [00:37:18] Eun: I think that, and I just love that the things that he talks about is he’s going receive this crown of righteousness and all these things, and it’s because all he did was long for Jesus, long to be in his presence, long for his appearing. I love that. That’s where the effort lies in. Do we like love Jesus that much? When you think about a bold proclamation in today’s society that maybe humiliates us or makes us feel a little bit shy, but we still feel like it’s worth it to do it, it really always centers around love, doesn’t it? Romantic love and those silly stories and movies and things. So, we’re captivated by it because some, for some reason, it transforms people to do these things. And I love that at the end, Paul is proclaiming that he’s loved Jesus, that he’s loved God, that he’s longed for him all this time. And I think that’s where his boldness comes from. [00:38:19] Anthony: The scripture says, but the Lord stood by me and gave me strength. Verse 17. As a final word, Eun, how have you personally experienced the Lord standing by you and giving you strength in your own life? We’d love to hear from you. [00:38:35] Eun: Yeah, I think again, my new book You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, a love letter to myself, and I say this, embarrassed, a little bit shy about it, but I wept so much having to recall the suffering and loneliness and pain points in this life, really, really trying to lead in ways and minister in ways where it felt like suffering so many times. And I know that my only strength really is because the Lord stood by me. I remember when my husband and I had visited Jerusalem and we were in the garden of Gethsemane. And it was such a busy tour and things, but they gave us one little quiet moment to be able to sit and reflect. And I remember just sitting in that garden and crying out to God because it was right after experiencing such a depth of betrayal within the church context. And I feel like Jesus said, “I understand what it means to be betrayed.” This is him telling me in the Garden of Gethsemane. And he said, “And yet, I still moved forward. I still said a “yes” to being crucified because there’s resurrection on the other side of it.” And I felt like only Jesus could call me forward that way because he’s experienced all of the suffering and so much in greater amount than I ever will. And so, yeah. The Lord stood by me and gave me strength in my darkest of times, in times of betrayal, in times of loneliness, in times of failure, the mistakes. The Lord stood by me and gave me strength. [00:40:26] Anthony: And it seems that way to me, Eun. Thank you for sharing that story of your own experience. The scripture time and time again takes us back to remembering, like, remember what the Lord has done for you. I’m thinking of Hagar in the desert when God meets her in her moment of just great distress and saves her, and she calls him El Roi, the God Who Sees. I think it’s so important that we remember, God sees us; he sees the pain; he understands. We have a high priest who understands. And that’s just such a good word because anytime we’re standing up proclaiming the gospel in a church, there are people in the pews that are really, really hurting. And to be able to say … and I thank you for sharing your story, and I know you said it’s maybe hard to talk about, but I’m grateful for that because your strength that you receive from the Lord strengthens me. And so, in that way, as I look back on my own life, I give thanks for the times that I was walking through the valley, the shadow of death, because it was in those times that I really sensed the Lord’s presence and his faithfulness and his strength. I give thanks for those times. I don’t want to go back. I don’t want to do it again, but I’m so thankful, and I think it’s just so important as part of our testimony, we share those things, don’t you, because I just think it strengthens the whole body. And so, we do that. And I just thank you for you sharing yours. I’m grateful for you and I’ve told you this before, but you can be my pastor anytime. It’d be awesome. I’d love to move to Hawaii, but I don’t think that’s in the cards for me. But again, I’m just so grateful for you. And folks check out her books on Amazon, the two books that we’ve previously mentioned. And I certainly want thank our team that helped make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. So grateful to work with them and, Eun, as is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we close with a word of prayer. So, thank you for being here and please pray for us. [00:42:41] Eun: I’d love to. Jesus, I just thank you that you see us. Thank you for being the God who takes the time, makes the effort, values seeing each and every one of us, and I pray that you would give us the courage and boldness and deep sense of joy and love to also see you. Would you make us seeing you be visible and public to those around us? Would our ability to long for your appearing, long for your presence, long to see you face to face be such a love that proclaims to the world around them an invitation to enter into this kind of relationship with you. Where it’s full of flourishing and mercy and grace and truth and beauty that none of us could really imagine fully. Thank you that you understand suffering, you understand betrayal, you understand all of our failures and unfaithful moments, and you remain to be the one who is faithful and is for us. It’s in your good name we pray. Amen. [00:43:58] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!The post Rev. Dr. Eun Strawser—Year C Proper 22-25 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Rev. Dr. Jared Michelson—Year C Proper 18-21 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Rev. Dr. Jared Michelson. Jared is a Presbyterian minister and a research fellow at the University of St. Andrews School of Divinity. His research interests include but not excluded to the doctrine of the divine attributes and Reformed thoughts, the doctrine of God, and the crisis of modernity and theology and economy after Barth. Jared, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we’d like to get to know you a bit, your story, projects you may be working on, and ultimately how you are participating with the Lord Jesus Christ. [00:01:31] Jared: Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be with you. Yeah, I live in St. Andrews, Scotland. I’ve lived here for about 12 years, but I’m from the states originally and came over here to study. But during that time, I was ordained in a denomination here in Scotland and have two young daughters. My wife is named Becky. She came over with me from the States. We actually had only been married for one month before we moved here. So, our entire married life has been in Scotland. We just decided to do all of the transitions in one glorious and terrifying moment. So yeah. I’m a researcher now, which means in theory, most of my day is meant to be spent researching and writing, although in actual practice a lot of my time ends up being spent teaching and helping with the Divinity School. Here I’m involved with what’s called our Systematic and Historical Theology Masters, and I’m also still very much involved with the church here, both locally and nationally. [00:02:32] Anthony: Since you’re at St. Andrews, I have to ask you this, because I’ve had friends who have lived there, either participating in the School of Divinity or just going to play a round of golf. And when I ask them about St. Andrews typically, Jared, they get this just far-away look in their eyes of enchantment. What makes St. Andrews so special? [00:02:54] Jared: Yeah, a lot of things do. Obviously, the big thing I suppose is that it’s the home of golf, the oldest golf course in the world. And so, when you tell a golfer that you live in St. Andrews, and as I do not— you do not — play golf, it’s really like committing a war crime. It’s deeply idolatrous to them. You can lose friends very quickly when you admit you live in St. Andrews and don’t play golf. So that’s one of the reasons. But it’s also the oldest university in Scotland. It’s a beautiful, small town. But one of the things I’ve loved about living here is it’s also a place with a lot of need. And having been in ministry here, anyone that’s been in ministry, in any community, I think you see there’s the kind of beautiful exterior and then there’s another side that’s maybe not as obvious. So, I love this community. Yes, you can come for a few days and be taken up by the mystique, but there’s also a lot of need, but a lot of wonderful people doing great work seeking to serve Jesus. I was just for example, at a youth camp this week from a bunch of the different churches and Christian organizations in town — young people hearing about the gospel. So, there’s that side of it which is just as beautiful to me as the kind of golf course and cathedral and things like that. [00:04:13] Anthony: We already have common ground because for me, that little golf ball Is the embodiment of the Satan. It’s just that I have friends that love golf; I respect them, but nothing drives me more batty than trying to hit that little golf ball. [00:04:30] Jared: Yeah. We really do have that in common, because I have to confess, I did try playing golf at one point, and so perhaps I’m just a failed golfer more than anything else. [00:04:38] Anthony: Maybe at some point our paths will cross and we can play golf badly together. So, how’s that? Hey, I wasn’t planning to ask you this, but maybe briefly, what are you researching right now, if you don’t mind me asking it? [00:04:55] Jared: As you mentioned before, a lot of my work has been on the doctrine of God, which can sound a bit funny. When I first came here, the first three years I was here, I worked in a pub. And if you, obviously, if people say, what are you doing here? And when you say the doctrine of God, people have no idea what that means. So, very soon when people said, what are you doing here? I just would say, I study God, which would oftentimes start some very interesting and strange conversations over a pint. But, to me, the issue of God’s character, who God is, why we can have confidence that we can know who he is — I see this as the perennial fundamental question of our time. Can we trust that we have good reason to know God? And what is God really like and what difference does that make to every facet of life? So that’s obviously a very general way of putting it, but those are the kind of questions that have motivated all of my academic work, and I’m continuing that trajectory now. [00:05:46] Anthony: Oh, that’s good. And as we come to the text for this month, we’re always asking the question of theology — who is God and who has he revealed himself to be in Jesus Christ? Let’s get to it. Let’s move to our first text of the month. It’s Philemon 1:1-21. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 18 in Ordinary Time, September 7, and it reads, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To our beloved coworker Philemon, 2 to our sister Apphia, to our fellow soldier Archippus, and to the church in your house: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.4 I thank my God always when I mention you in my prayers, 5 because I hear of your love for all the saints and your faith toward the Lord Jesus. 6 I pray that the partnership of your faith may become effective as you comprehend all the good that we share in Christ. 7 I have indeed received much joy and encouragement from your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, my brother.8 For this reason, though I am more than bold enough in Christ to command you to do the right thing, 9 yet I would rather appeal to you on the basis of love—and I, Paul, do this as an old man and now also as a prisoner of Christ Jesus. 10 I am appealing to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me. 12 I am sending him, that is, my own heart, back to you. 13 I wanted to keep him with me so that he might minister to me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel, 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your good deed might be voluntary and not something forced. 15 Perhaps this is the reason he was separated from you for a while, so that you might have him back for the long term, 16 no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother—especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. 17 So if you consider me your partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has wronged you in any way or owes you anything, charge that to me. 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand: I will repay it. I say nothing about your owing me even your own self. 20 Yes, brother, let me have this benefit from you in the Lord! Refresh my heart in Christ. 21 Confident of your obedience, I am writing to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask. So, Jared, I wanted to ask you if you were preaching, proclaiming this text to a congregation, what would be the focus of your heralding? [00:08:50] Jared: There’s loads of different methods that people have for preaching, ways that they organize a sermon. And I don’t think there’s any right one right way or wrong way. And obviously any kind of method like that becomes formulaic can be really unhelpful. And I think you want to be guided by the text itself, not by your method. Nonetheless, sometimes it does help to have something to help organize your thinking a bit. And for me, one of the things I try to do, especially because when I do preach in St. Andrews, it is to a very diverse audience. It’s not … I can’t assume that people are interested in the gospel, that they accept the authority of scripture. And I feel even in that, to me, the first thing you want to say is you want to earn your right to be heard. And in this text, I feel like in that sense, it’s very easy because it raises this just profound existential question. Paul is writing to Philemon asking him to accept back this runaway slave, Onesimus, and it raises these questions: Is Paul somehow endorsing slavery? Is he, even if he seems to be appealing on Onesimus’ behalf, but is he in so doing, is he somehow accepting the institution? Does this mean Christianity is pro-slavery? What do we do about the fact that at times Christians in the past were pro-slavery? So, to me, I think that that’s right where I would go. And I think this passage, when we read it in context, I think it just has an incredibly liberatory message far from — this is a very controversial issue, but I’ll just jump right in — far from endorsing the institution of slavery, in verse 8 and 9, Paul says basically, I could just tell you to do the right thing. In other words, Philemon, the right thing to do is to release Onesimus. That’s not in doubt. This is someone that is following in the way of Jesus. The question is, how do we move towards this vision of justice? And what I think we find in the New Testament is a text that is not laying out a political vision for society. For example, when Paul instructs people in Romans 13 to obey the emperor, do we take that and say, “Ah, what this means is Paul is endorsing a politics that has an emperor and he’s opposed to democracy?” No, that, that’s not the sort of text Romans is. Paul isn’t giving his ideal account of how the government should be set up. He’s saying, given the situation you find yourself in, how can you behave in a way that reflects the ethics of the kingdom of God? And that’s very much what I see Paul doing here as well. He’s not endorsing the institution of slavery. Again, he’s saying, I could tell you the right thing to do. But he’s actually appealing to a deeper motivation. He’s basically saying if you understood the gospel, if you understood the fullness of what you’ve received in Jesus, then this issue would resolve itself. You would realize that what you have here is a brother, and you would have to think through, how do I treat this other in light of their status as a beloved child of God? There is still something provocative for us, though, here, if I can keep going, Anthony. Is that all right? [00:12:31] Anthony: Please. You’re on a roll, man. Let’s go. [00:12:33] Jared: What is provocative about it is that we would like Paul to proceed differently. We would think, “Paul, this slaveholder is an evil, wicked person. Why would you possibly say to him, respond to his sin of slaveholding, in this roundabout way that appeals to the gospel of Jesus Christ rather than just exposing his utter wickedness?” And the truth is, I understand that feeling, there’s something absolutely right about our modern reaction to this text, which lives in a culture that has been I think, informed by the ethic of the gospel and that sees slavery for the horror and the wickedness that it is. And yet what is so beautiful about the gospel is that it meets all of us where we are. In other words, where the gospel meets the slaveholder in this culture is not at all endorsing their slaveholding, but is nonetheless trying to restore and free the slave, while also redeeming the slaveholder. And so, the challenge of this text is we oftentimes wish that Paul had responded to the slaveholders of his day much more harshly. And yet, do we want the same for us? Do we think that if God looked at our own wickedness and our own brokenness and the things that we as a culture are totally blind to, that we would merit a different response? I doubt that. I remember a good friend of mine recently — we were going through a really difficult situation. Someone had made a big mistake that was in our community. And they said to me, it feels like we are free in the church to say we’re sinners but we’re not actually free to commit a bad sin. In other words, it’s absolutely fine if you get up in front of heaven and you say I’ve sinned in all sorts of ways and state it with generalities and vagueness, but as soon as you say something you’ve done and it is something that is destructive and that is harmful and that hurts another person, we suddenly don’t want people to get grace anymore. We want to go straight in with the law. [00:15:00] Anthony: Sure. [00:15:00] Jared: And so, part of what I think is scandalous about Philemon … look, part of it is it’s a difficult text. I absolutely recognize that. … But part of it is that I think it is a way of being utterly opposed to slavery, that is nonetheless opposing slavery with a gospel message and a call to what’s sometimes called evangelical repentance. I don’t know if you’ve heard that phrase before, that the reason we repent is not just because of the law — though it’s not opposed to that — but it’s because of such a profound realization of the grace or the gospel that we’ve received. So, that’s part of the message that I see here. Yes. Part of the reason it’s scandalous to us is because we live in a culture that now where slavery is no longer accepted at all, which is a wonderful good thing, which I think again, we could talk about is partially produced by the gospel. Indeed, Nietzsche in his criticism of religion called Christianity a slave’s religion. He saw that it was a religion, when it says there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free; it was a religion that was from the beginning deeply for the downtrodden and the oppressed. And that is part of what has transformed our society. But again, the other reason I think we struggle with it is because when people actually do real sins, they don’t just talk about sin in vague general terms. We oftentimes rush to want to see them destroyed and pushed down, not redeemed from within by the gospel. [00:16:24] Anthony: Yeah, it’s powerful what you said. And I’m just thinking back to the very beginning when you said, when you proclaim the gospel, it’s often with people that are diverse in the group — there’s diversity there, but there’s also those that don’t necessarily believe in the authority of scripture. Jared: Absolutely. Anthony: And so, a text like this is very appealing because it really does get to the heart of the human condition. Not just slavery, but like you said, sin — whatever sin looks like in a person’s life. And it’s powerful to see Paul’s approach with the brother here. And to me, it is it just shows how forgiveness, reconciliation — it’s all a part of the healing process. Which really brings me to the next question, because I’ve heard some people say that this appeal that Paul makes, it puts forgiveness and justice at odds. But is that really the case? What’s going on here? [00:17:23] Jared: Yeah. I think that’s another huge issue, isn’t it? I think we know forgiveness and justice aren’t at odds, and part of the reason is because, again, if we just ask, do we think that what would be the best thing for a slaveholder is that they would be forgiven and they would be allowed to continue in their slaveholding? I think the answer is obviously no, primarily, and firstly, because God cares for the good of the slave, but secondarily because God cares for the good of the slaveholder. There’s a quote from Herbert McCabe, who is a Cambridge Dominican theologian, and he said, “Look, sin always hurts the other.  Sin always has harmful effects on the other, but what makes sin sin, what defines sin as sin, is actually what it does to the perpetrator. And what he means by this is, he’s not saying it’s more important, like the sometimes the bigger deal, so to speak, is what sin does to the other person. But you can accidentally hurt another person. If you accidentally performed some action and then you intentionally perform the same action and it had the same result on the other person. One of those would just be a terrible accident. But the other that was intentional and deliberate would be sin. So, if the effect on the other is the same what makes a difference? What makes one just a terrible accident? And the other a sin? And the difference is that sin mars, the soul; it destroys the sinner. And so, when you look at this all throughout the Christian tradition and then some — it has this long discussion on how in order for God to be merciful to the sinner he has to be just, because the best thing for us is to be freed from our sin which makes us less than fully human. The tragedy for the slaveholder is yes, first and foremost what they’ve done to the other, but it’s also how they are marring and defacing their own humanity. This is a beautiful person made in the image of God who has somehow become so distorted that they can hold another in bondage. So, the way that God’s mercy works itself out in our life is actually through justice, through God moving us towards a more humane way of living, which is ultimately for the good of the world and for the good of the other, absolutely. But it’s also equally for our own good and were God to give a kind of mercy that wasn’t transformative, a “cheap grace,” as Bonhoeffer said, that didn’t make us different, that would be a profound lack of kindness and mercy to us because it would be leaving us trapped in a dehumanizing way of living. [00:20:07] Anthony: Now you’re meddling because … and I absolutely agree that God loves the perpetrator just as much as the victim, and he loves the perpetrator so much that he is just. And confronts him. And but boy, we just want … smite the perpetrator, Almighty Smiter! That’s our desire. But that person is an image bearer of God. The Imago Dei is there and sometimes we forget how that’s harming that image within them, that God is still for them, but he is so for them that he is going to confront the sin. And thanks be to God. That is kindness. It is kindness to show compassion in such a way that faces up against that which would harm another. That’s what good news is to the other. “Stop it!” And that’s what Paul is telling Philemon here. [00:21:02] Jared: Absolutely. Absolutely. We can sometimes have this kind of schizophrenic vision of God. I certainly did — I could tell a long story about that — where we think that God has two sides. The one side is loving and good, and the bad side is justice and wrath. And that orthodoxy means balancing those two sides. And I think that is, yeah, I think that’s a kind of — I don’t want to overstate it here — but I do think that’s in danger of being a kind of pagan view of God. [00:21:29] Anthony: Yeah. [00:21:30] Jared: That God’s, as the Puritans talked about, God’s justice or his wrath is just the strange side of his love. It’s not something different. It’s not something in competition. It’s his utter and decided will for the flourishing of all he has made. And his settled opposition to what is defacing and dehumanizing and destructive.  It’s a way his goodness expresses itself for our good. [00:21:55] Anthony: Well said, my friend. Let’s transition to the next pericope of the month. It is 1 Timothy 1:12-17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 19 in Ordinary Time, which is September 14. Jared, would you read it for us, please? [00:22:15] Jared: Yeah. I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because he considered me faithful and appointed me to his service, 13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a man of violence. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the foremost. 16 But for that very reason I received mercy, so that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display the utmost patience as an example to those who would come to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. [00:23:08] Anthony: So, you’re a researcher that focuses on the doctrine of God. So, tell us about this God revealed in Jesus Christ through this text. [00:23:17] Jared: Yeah, it tells us a great deal about this God, doesn’t it? One of the things that really jumps out to me, and I think this does get to the character of God, maybe it’s getting there in a roundabout way, is that Paul seems to say something that is very implausible.  Is it the case, that Paul is actually the worst of all sinners? The fact that God enjoins us sometimes to enact what we might call moral fictions to counteract the ways we can go wrong by living as if something were the case. So, think of Philippians, I think it is, when he says, consider others more significant than yourself. Does that mean that literally you are less valuable and other people are more valuable? I don’t think so. The way I sometimes describe it when I’m doing a wedding with people is saying, one of the things I had to learn for myself is that I have a remarkable capacity to keep meticulous detail of all of the chores I have done around the house, and to just so happen to not see all the ways, all the things that my wife has done. And I’m not doing that deliberately. It’s my kind of blindness. And so actually, if I just try to keep things 50/50, they won’t be 50/50 at all. I need to try to treat her as more significant than myself. And I think that’s part of what Paul is saying here. This isn’t a kind of worm theology where Paul is saying, “I’m so bad” and he’s whipping himself. Instead, to your point, he is I think overwhelmed by the grace of God, the mercy that he has received. And that is him choosing to live a life that is continually aware of that. And that’s his motivating sensor. One of the words that really jumps out to me is in verse 16 where it says, Jesus has showed patience with me. And this actually becomes a really important word in the Christian tradition. And funnily enough, it’s one of the words that helps create our modern idea of tolerance. We sometimes think that tolerance just means being a relativist or being indifferent, but it doesn’t mean that at all. Tolerance means bearing with something that you find objectionable for the sake of maintaining communion or relationship or community with the others. And with the other. And this is what God does with us — that despite our brokenness, despite our sinfulness, God is continually bearing with that so that he can maintain union with us and communion with us and drawing us into deeper union with him. So, to me that’s a part of the kind of beautiful vision of God’s character that Paul is talking about here. He’s not emphasizing his sin to beat himself down, but he’s overwhelmed by the fact that though he can look back and see all of his many missteps, that God has been walking with him through that all the time. He’s that kind of good shepherd, walking with us through the valley of death and being patient with us in countless ways we don’t know. So yeah, to me that patience is a wonderful kind of exemplification of God’s character and love. [00:26:38] Anthony: Yeah, my eyes are drawn to verse 14, “the grace of our Lord overflowed.”  Andrew Purvis talks about this super overflowing abundance in God. It overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Overflowing good. Yes … including the patience that you mentioned. It seems odd to me that people would interpret the text this way, but I have seen some react to this interpretation that God is conditional, that Paul was strengthened by the Lord because he was considered faithful. Verse 12, he received mercy because he acted out of ignorance, not willfully. In verse 13. So, Jared, is God’s kindness based on conditions? [00:27:27] Jared: No, but I think it goes back to a bit of what we spoke about before. There are conditions and there are conditions. Let me put it this way … [00:27:40] Anthony: Tell me more. [00:27:42] Jared: This is an analogy I’ve used before, where we can go back to this kind of idea of slaveholding. I’m not an expert on these things, but apparently this kind of situation actually did happen in the American South. You had the legal declaration that slavery as an institution was ended. And so, you had men and women that were held slaves, that lived in terrible conditions, that were forced to do backbreaking labor, that had very little agency and very little prospects in life. Slavery was abolished, and then they went to live in the exact same houses. They worked in the exact same fields. They had the exact same limited prospects in life doing the exact same back-breaking labor, but they received a very small amount of money at the end of the week, which they had to use to pay for those very terrible houses they used to live in. Would we say that person is free? Formally, perhaps their official condition is free, but if nothing has materially changed about the facts of their life, they’re not actually living as free people. They’re functionally still in bondage. And so, part of what the gospel … and I think sometimes we view the gospel that way when we say, is there no conditions? What is there isn’t is any standard you need to meet in order to be forgiven. Part of the kind of amazing discovery of the reformation is that Jesus has he has paid the penalty for sin. And that being united with him allows you to have in a sense all of the conditions met, but it necessarily will lead you into a new life. And you are not actually being freed. You are not actually being saved. You are not actually living in Christ unless you are living a renewed, transformed, different life. Not so that you can earn God’s favor, but so that you can actually experience salvation. You can live as a free person and this too is not somehow something you earn off on your own. It’s living into your union with Christ. It is grace upon grace. It is, as Paul said, working out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in you. [00:30:06] Anthony: Yeah, that brings some great insight in terms of just the way that we experience salvation. And thanks be to God that salvation is not a one and done act. But it’s the ongoing perpetual reality of God that he is saving us, that he is delivering us from bondage each and every day. Hallelujah. Praise God for that. And so that makes sense. It almost puts a subjective reading on scripture like, yes, this is objectively true what God has done — forgiving me, but it’s there is this act of living into the salvation that he has so graciously given to us. I think that’s what you’re saying, right? [00:31:00] Jared: That’s exactly what I’m saying. I think you’ve put it as, as often happens with me, I think you’ve put it far better than I have, so thanks for doing that. But exactly the New Testament speaks of salvation as something that is being completed and as something that is completed. It is both of those. And sometimes we can have this very unhelpful view that being saved is just simply a question of, am I going to heaven or not? And that is not at all how the New Testament uses this very multifaceted language of being saved. You are always in danger when you try to summarize the richness of the gospel. But for me, the gospel is about the renewal, the restoration of our entire person. Indeed, it is about forgiveness. It is about eternal life, but it is just as much about living this abundant life in Christ now, being restored and renewed into his image, and then making this entire cosmos new. [00:31:41] Anthony: That reminds me of a quote from Eugene Peterson where he said, resurrection is not exclusively what happens after we’re buried. It has to do with the way we live right now. The kingdom is near; the kingdom is here. Let’s be about the Father’s business. [00:31:55] Jared: Absolutely. That is the meaning of that word. [00:32:01] Anthony: Our next text for the month is 1 Timothy 2:1-7. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 20 in Ordinary Time, which is September 21. First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time. 7 For this I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth; I am not lying), a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth. This is a brief but powerfully rich theological text. God desires everyone to be saved, verse 4. Jared, what does this declaration tell us about God, the church, and anthropology, human worth? [00:33:19] Jared: Yeah. I really like that last bit of the question. What does it tell us about anthropology and human worth? Because I think it tells us quite a lot. Verse 5 has this proclamation of monotheism: “for there is one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humankind, Jesus Christ.” This is actually profoundly significant for developing ideas of human dignity, human rights. When you look at the ancient world, Christian monotheism was not just about how many gods there are. In fact, it wasn’t really about how many Gods there are or not, because at times Paul seems to say there’s lots of false gods. There might actually be some malevolent powers that are kind of God-like in a bad way. It was more about the character of the one God and the one God that is revealed in Jesus Christ. Paganism had this way of relating to God, and you see the prophets particularly in what’s called the post-exilic text, particularly in the bits of the Old Testament that are when Israel is trying to reckon with the exile, they are constantly critiquing the pagan deities. And the critique is less about how many gods there are. The critique is that your gods are needy —paganism in this way. And they had a vision of God that was based on exchange. If you want your crops to grow, if you want your nation to be protected, if you want to have a large nation, then the key is treating the god rightly. If you give the god the proper sacrifice, then he will make your crops grow. If you sacrifice just a little bit of something that is valuable to you, then he will give you something even more valuable. If you sacrifice a few of your crops, he’ll make your crops grow. If you sacrifice an animal, he’ll protect your nation. And on and on it goes. And the kind of terrible dialectic of idolatry is that out of desire, out of seeking something that you think will make you happy, whether it is flourishing or protection or a large family, you end up giving more and more to the god. The gods are needy, they’re demanding, and eventually you end up giving the thing that is most precious to you for the sake of your own happiness, because of course, the horrible conclusion of idolatry. This idolatrous dynamic that the prophets critique is child sacrifice. You give literally the most precious thing in the world to you for the sake of your own desire. And the prophets constantly have this exalted, transformed, monotheistic vision of God, which just cuts off that logic of exchange right from the beginning. In the Psalms, God will say, “I have the cattle on a thousand hills. If I needed anything, I wouldn’t have asked you. In other words, there’s no exchange needed here. My goodness doesn’t need to be bought. It doesn’t need to be bargained with. And the reason is actually because I am so full of life, I’m the Creator of all things. I’m not one small pagan tribal deity that you can bargain with that’s just for your nation and not others. I’m the God who made all things, and therefore I’m so endlessly rich that the needs of bargaining couldn’t even enter into the equation to begin with.” But the other implication of this is that when you have a pagan god, when you say, we’re the Babylonians and we have Marduk and he’s our god, and we’re some Canaanite tribe and we have Baal and he is our god, your gods are for you and not for anyone else. They work for you if you pay them off, and they’re opposed to the other. And so, when you look at the ancient world, they don’t have our modern idea that all humans have shared dignity and value just because they are human. When you read Aristotle, he has a very different view. He says, some people were born to be slaves and other people were born to rule. He said, some people were born Greeks or Romans, and some people were born barbarians. And they’re almost as if these are different sorts of species, as if to be a Roman and to have our gods makes us of a fundamentally different kind than these other sorts of beings. And so, part of the revolution of monotheism and particularly Christian monotheism is saying, if there’s one God overall, then he operates with us out of his goodness, not by bargaining, but two, he is the God for all people, not just for us. As I said before, there’s no slave nor free. There’s no Greek nor barbarian. And that’s why Paul on Act 17, when he comes to speak to the Greek thinkers, he says, this God is not far from any one of us. In him, you live and move and have our being. He’s the Father of all and he’s basically been reaching out to all of humanity from the beginning. So, this vision of one God is actually profoundly significant. It is, I would argue — and there’s a lot of intellectual histories that have made this point — it is the roots of our modern idea that every single human person, no matter where they’re from, no matter what race they are, no matter even what religion they are, every one of them is worthy of dignity and value. And this is actually rooted in the idea that there was one Creator and Lover and good God over all. So yeah, that last question, I think this is absolutely essential to recovering a vision of the human worth and dignity of every person. [00:39:00] Anthony: And for me, this is why it’s so important to point to this one God as triune Father, Son, and Spirit. Because if you have a unitarian God in isolation, he would have created out of need. And so, everything does become about neediness. But within the triune nature of God, there was joy, overflowing harmony. There was no need. But out of the overflow of love, creation came to be. And therefore, all created beings, all of our human beings made in his image and likeness, not out of need, but because of desire of relationship, of wholeness. And as you said earlier, for the flourishing of all mankind. It’s so important to see the triuneness of God, the Trinity. [00:39:45] Jared: I think that is absolutely right. And sometimes I say things like this and people will think that this is some sort of revisionary version of God. This is not true at all. You can find arguments like this all throughout the medieval, the idea that if goodness, if generosity is a divine perfection, if it’s part of what made God perfect, then if God was just a monad, then who could God have been generous to without creating? So, what that would mean then is in order to be generous — and remember we said generous was, generosity is part of what makes God perfect — so, in other words, in order to be perfect, in order to be God, he would’ve needed to create, and in that case, God wasn’t creating the world in order to give. He was paradoxically creating the world for himself so he can become perfect, so he can become generous, so he can become the generous God that characterizes perfection. Instead, as you said, if God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if he is perfectly giving within his one essence from all eternity, then this world is, and I love this word, even though it’s a big word, is gratuitous. God didn’t need it for the sake of God. [00:40:54] Anthony: Yes. [00:40:55] Jared: God literally loved it into being out of that fullness and joy within God’s perfect triune perfection. He spilled out into the world. And again, sorry, I know I’m rambling here, but this does transform the way we think about quote unquote conditions, to go back to our earlier view. Because we oftentimes have actually that kind of an implicit pagan view of God that I was talking about before. We think God has saved us or God has promised us salvation. God has done all of these good things for us. And, therefore, he just asks a bit from us in return. He wants us to do some good things, either to pay him back for what he has done or because this is owed in some way because of all of the good things he promises to give to us. But if God is this infinite triune God, that can’t be the case because God doesn’t need anything we have to give. So, anything he asks us to do can ultimately in some deep sense only be for us, not for him. It can only be to give grace upon grace, gift upon gift, to lead us into more humanity and more flourishing and more wholeness, not to take something from us that he was lacking. [00:42:02] Anthony: Yeah, that’s so insightful because, and not to get into another subject, but that really does inform missiology. Like when we participate in mission with God, it’s out of the overflow. It’s the spilling out of his love, not just another box to check, but this is who God is and this is what he does by his Spirit. And, oh, there’s just so much to get into there. Let’s continue on with this thought. When we look at verses 5 and 6, we see that there’s one mediator between God and humanity, and you’re in St. Andrews. So, I think of TF Torrance in his work, the Mediation of Christ. What are the implications of Christ Jesus, the man being the mediator between God and humanity? Is that just high theology or is there something very practical about this? [00:42:50] Jared: Yeah, I think there’s a huge amount that is practical here and there’s so many ways you could get into it. It is high theology. One of my favorite modern theologians is George Hunsinger, and he talks about how the view of the atonement that you have, the view of what you think Jesus needs to do to redeem us is almost inseparably and inevitably connected with who you think Jesus is. So, in theological terms, the atonement and Christology, what you think Jesus does and who you think he is are inseparable. And the bigger job you think Jesus has to do to restore us and to redeem us, the more exalted you need to think about him. And I think that’s exactly what we’re getting here, that Jesus is the one mediator because he alone, as verse 6 says, gives himself as the ransom. And I think that’s a really powerful word. Look, I’m not a biblical scholar. They could get into all the details, but at a basic level it just means a means of release. And that to me gets to the heart of salvation. The reason that we — salvation is a big job and it needs God himself, the one mediator Jesus Christ — is because the most difficult parts of sin are things that we feel powerless before. Again, we can be very judgmental and legalistic and think that if people just wanted to stop sinning, then they could. And I don’t think that’s a very helpful way of thinking. I think we need to be released from something that stands over against us. I don’t know about you, but when I think of my most kind of intractable character flaws, for me to be completely honest, one of them is just people pleasing. I care so much about what people are thinking about me, I think they’re thinking about me much more than they are. And I usually think that they’re thinking much worse thoughts about me than they actually are. And I can just be consumed in thinking about what people think. And can I tell you if I could stop that, I would. I have wanted to be released from that kind of obsession with being worried about what people are thinking about so many times. I think that might sound like a mundane, safe thing to share, but I think most of our biggest struggles in life are things that we feel helpless before. I think of my friends that have gone through AA and one of the foundational tenets is that you need a higher power because you cannot solve this yourself. And that’s what that idea of ransom is about, that we need someone to release us from a power that threatens to hold us captive, and that to some degree makes us helpless, or at least makes us feel helpless. But if I could say one other thing about that idea, then, of the one mediator — what this does mean then is that in, in some profound fundamental sense, our relationship with God is direct. It is in a sense individualistic. It is straight through. There’s no one that needs to stand in the way, that God himself, in the person of Jesus has done what is required to release us from sin. And therefore, by relating to him we have union with God. And yet what that one mediator doesn’t do is it doesn’t eliminate the fact that God still uses means. Paul talks about how Jesus is the one reconciler, and yet he’s given to us the ministry of reconciliation, that other people can be the means, the vehicle, the space at which we encounter the one mediator that is Jesus Christ. And if we had time, I could tell loads of stories about that. But that is what you talked before about mission. Mission is not us going off on our own and through our own ingenuity or smarts or argumentative rigor or whatever it may be, winning people to Christ. It’s maybe being in the right place at the right time, where the one mediator, Jesus uses us as an instrument to show people Jesus. And oftentimes that’s not through our strength, it’s through our weakness. Oftentimes it’s not through our capacity. It’s through our own need for Christ ourself, which allows us to be that vehicle through which other people meet the one mediator that is Jesus. [00:47:15] Anthony: So much could be said there, and I’m grateful for what you did say, because it’s a lot — that we have direct relationship with the Father. Jesus is not so much a middleman as it were. Sometimes I think people can get that idea that he’s protecting us from the Father. That’s not what’s at play here at all, because guess what? The Father’s like Jesus and has always been like Jesus. We didn’t always know it, but now we do because he is the one mediator. Hallelujah. Praise the Lord. Our final pericope of the month is 1 Timothy 6:6-19. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 21 in Ordinary Time, which is September 28. Jared, I would be grateful if you read it. [00:48:02] Jared: Of course. Of course, there is great gain in godliness combined with contentment, 7 for we brought nothing into the world, so that we can take nothing out of it, 8 but if we have food and clothing, we will be content with these. 9 But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains.11 But as for you, man of God, shun all this; pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and for which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep the commandment without spot or blame until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will bring about at the right time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. 16 It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 17 As for those who in the present age are rich, command them not to be haughty or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches but rather on God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, generous, and ready to share, 19 thus storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life that really is life. [00:49:48] Anthony: I’m going to age myself. I went to university back in the nineties and there was a song that had a line, “more money, more money, more problems,” and it became really famous. And yet, here in the West we pursue money, Jared, as with fervor and gusto above everything. We, in the United States, we talk about the almighty dollar. So, what commentary would you give to the church in light of this and what the text declares? [00:50:17] Jared: Yeah, I think we should definitely allow these. Part of what I think is so helpful about being in a church that reads the scripture, part of the helpfulness of the ritual of going through scripture, however you do that, is to be forced as a rich, wealthy person to hear words like this read over you. And by rich and wealthy, I certainly don’t feel rich and wealthy. But I mean that in the kind of global sense and in terms of wealth across time. But again, even here there is a challenge. But I suppose this has been a theme throughout our conversation. I think there’s a way that this challenge comes to us, which is not for our condemnation, but ultimately for our liberation and for our good. I’m really struck by how later on it warns about the uncertainty of riches.  And encourages you to towards another sort of riches. There’s a play on words there, right? [00:51:17] Anthony: Yes. [00:51:17] Jared: Don’t set your hope in the uncertainty of riches, but rather on God who richly provides for us with everything for our enjoyment. This is a point where to go back to where we started this conversation, I think the message, what might seem to be the challenging message of scripture, actually really resonates with our culture. How many of our great works of art, or even silly films, are about the uncertainty of riches, about people who think that once I have everything, once I’ve attained success in my career, once I’ve attained a certain status of wealth, then I will be happy. And they find that it utterly fails them. When, ironically, when I was on my vacation this summer, I was reading a new novel called Perfection. And it was about these digital nomad people that move into a major city and they’re working online and they were seeking the good life. And they and their friends had tried every different way. They tried clubbing for a while, then they tried great food, then they tried great holidays. They were trying all of these different things. And in the end, the story ends with them in this kind of wonderful house seemingly living the simple life they’d been seeking the whole time and yet utterly bereft of meaning and of significance and of the sort of life they’ve really been seeking. And I think this is the message of this passage —not wealth is really great but you need to obey God and so, you shouldn’t live for it, not this lifestyle would be really wonderful but you’re not allowed to have it. Instead, it’s what it’s pointing us towards — a better, a more lasting, a more satisfying form of riches. I love Jesus’s parable of the pearl of great price or the treasure hidden in a field where he says, someone goes and finds in a field this buried treasure. And what it doesn’t say is that this treasure was so important that God made him give up everything else. It says, when he found this treasure, it was so surpassingly attractive, so desirable, so worthwhile that out of joy, he went and sold everything else he had so that he could get this treasure. In other words, he’s pointing us towards a deeper, more satisfying form of riches, not wagging its finger at us, and saying, you are trying too hard to be satisfied. [00:53:37] Anthony: Oh, that’s so well said. I love how you tie that together with where the true riches are and it’s in Christ where everything that is good and beautiful is found. And the New Testament tells us that greed is idolatrous. Yeah. It’s idolatry. And yet so often we hold it up as a virtue. And it’s not that God is withholding for us, he just has the better thing to give to us if we would just receive it. And I think this is what the text is pointing to. [00:54:08] Jared: Absolutely. [00:54:09] Anthony: Yeah. So, what does it look like? This is a big question, and you can go a million different directions, but what does it look like to fight the good fight of faith and to take hold of eternal life? And maybe you can provide some commentary of how we’re doing it well and where you see us falling short as Christians. [00:54:28] Jared: Yeah. I think, maybe to be slightly provocative, verse 7 says we brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out of it. There is a quite brazen appeal here to heavenly mindedness. And in the late 20th century, early 21st century theology and biblical studies, heavenly mindedness got a really bad rap. There was this idea that the problem with Christians is that we’re too focused on eternity. [00:55:00] Anthony: Yes. [00:55:00] Jared: And we’re not focused enough on this world, or the material things or physical things or whatever it may be. And I’m not very sympathetic to that way of thinking. And part of the reason, I almost think the opposite. I think we live in an age that is consumed by the immediate, that is consumed by … sometimes when people would say to me every sermon needs to be practical, I would say I agree with you. But sometimes what I think we mean by practical is this needs to be something I can put into practice on my way home from church today. And I think the most practical things in life don’t work like that. They’re not just little life hacks that you put into practice to change your life. They’re about who you are as a person. They’re about restoring you and making you new. They’re actually more about virtue than just about following a rule. And I think something similar here in our culture right now, as you might know, there is a revival —particularly among young people — of Stoicism, of a philosophy of life which is combating this obsession with immediate gratification, which we all have. And Christianity from the beginning has had a very complicated relationship with Stoicism. When you read these first few verses here about contentment, it’s saying, look, there is something right about that. There’s something right about delaying gratification, about living for something more than immediate gratification, living for a standard or a virtue that goes beyond it. Okay, so there’s a grain of truth to that. And yet Augustine famously mocked the Stoics as well because he said do you really think that someone — because Stoicism says basically, if you have the right attitude on life, then it doesn’t matter what good things you lose, you should still be able to be happy, and Augustine said that was ridiculous — do you really think that if you’ve lost a loved one or lost a friend that you shouldn’t be troubled, that you shouldn’t be profoundly devastated in the face of that loss? And he looked at the person of Jesus as his is motivation here: Jesus, the one person that of all people was most living not for the immediate but for eternity, whose entire life, as Hebrews said, was for the joy that was set before him. In other words, the reason he could go through a life of being rejected and of what seemed like failure and ultimately of death was not because he had given up on joy, but because he was living for an eternal joy where humanity was reunited to God along with him. And yet, even though he had that vision, that ultimately all things will be made new, his joy would be made sight, when he looked at his friend Lazarus who died, even though he was going raise him again, he wept. [00:57:46] Anthony: Yes. [00:57:46] Jared: He fully faced the loss and the tragedy and the sorrow of life. And that’s what that Stoic vision misses — the fact that life can be broken and imperfect and tragic. And yes, we have hope, but is a hope that is oftentimes through tears facing the reality of a broken world. And in terms of your final question then, what does it mean to do that well? What does it mean to, on the one hand, yes, not think that I need to be immediately satisfied, to recognize that sometimes I will have desires that don’t go fulfilled, that sometimes life isn’t what it should be, and therefore it can be tragic and I can lament and I can weep, and yet also to do that with hope, trusting that there is a future joy, that this is not the end, and therefore I’m able to face those tragedies without being totally crushed, but still having in some broken way through tears and through suffering and maybe through therapy, hoping in something more. What does that look like? I think part of what it looks like, and this might be a strange thing to say, is accepting that things aren’t going to be perfect in this world. [00:58:55] Anthony: Yeah. [00:58:56] Jared: Accepting that what it means to be faithful is accepting when other people aren’t perfect, when your family lets you down, when the church isn’t what it should be, when the government isn’t what it should be, and saying, do you know what? This doesn’t make me give up. This doesn’t make me stop trying. This doesn’t make me stop fighting for justice and truth. This doesn’t make me hopeless. It makes me think that I can keep going. I can keep trying to fight for justice. I can keep pressing in relationships. I can keep doing all of that because I’m not expecting it to be perfect. I’m living for the joy that was set before me, which is already secured in the person of Jesus. [00:59:34] Anthony: Yeah. That’s so important what you’re saying there. And I think this gets at why Paul can write a letter like that he did to the church in Philippi while he is sitting in prison. It’s sometimes called the epistle of joy. He’s just gushing with joy in the midst of his dark, dank circumstances because of who Christ is, who has been so rich to provide out of generosity to Paul as it is to us. So, even when, say, we have prayed and prayed that we would be healed of some sort of physical infirmity but it doesn’t happen, we don’t doubt God’s goodness, his faithfulness to us because he’s already proven that once and for all in the person and work of Jesus Christ. And so, I think you’re really getting at something — that this life ain’t perfect. It’s just not. [01:00:25] Jared: No. [01:00:25] Anthony: But it’s good. It’s so good because of you guys. [01:00:30] Jared: I think you’re right, that those moments of loss, of prayers that are not answered — long prayers that are not answered — is where you, that’s where you know whether we’re alive. This doesn’t mean you don’t grieve, it doesn’t mean you’re not incredibly sad. It doesn’t mean you, again, you might not be depressed or anxious or have mental illness. But one of the things I find really comforting, that I do try to encourage people with, is to say, when you say this person isn’t being healed, has God said no? If it’s not too trite to say, God never says no. At worst, he says not yet. The miracles of the gospels, as a lot of biblical commentators have pointed out, when Jesus is going through this small land and he is healing people left and right, all of the illness and pain, it’s almost as if it’s wiping away what was. And we say, why doesn’t Jesus do that now? Why doesn’t he do that for everyone? The answer is, of course, he will. That is a foretaste, a sign, the first fruits of the entire world being restored. Every person that was healed was actually a sign for us, that ultimately all tears will be wiped away. Ultimately, all pain and illness will be eliminated. All things will be restored. And so right now, yes, we lament, but we trust that the answer isn’t no, that the answer at worst is wait. The day is coming when those things will be set right. [01:02:05] Anthony: That’s such good news. And for our listening audience, you may not realize this, but often when I’m interviewing somebody like Jared, I’m meeting them for the first time. During the recording, we’ve, Jared and I, have exchanged emails back and forth to prepare for this, but this is the first time I’ve actually talked to him, as is the case for several of the guests that we’ve had, and I’m so grateful that Andrew Torrance connected us. I really do appreciate you, brother. You’re a researcher, but I hear the pastor-preacher in you, and it’s so exciting to hear you exclaim and explain and herald the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, thank you for joining us. And I really do appreciate the team of people that make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman — just a great team to work with that puts all this together. But I wanted to remind our audience of something. Our friends, the one who’s gone before us, the great Swiss theologian, Karl Barth, said, “Christ accomplishes the reality of our reconciliation with God, not its possibility. It’s done.” And so, as Jared said during the podcast, let’s go be ministers of the gospel. It is such good news and it shouldn’t stay with us. Let’s share it with all that we encounter. May it be so. Jared, thank you for being with us and as is our tradition here on the podcast, we end with a word prayer. We’d be delighted if you said a word of prayer over us. [01:03:27] Jared: Yeah. Thanks so much and thanks for your kind words. Heavenly Father, we just do. We are aware that when we’re talking about these things, it can be very easy to talk about these issues in a podcast, whether it’s issues of racial injustice, issues of loss, of illness. And … speaking in a theoretical, abstract way is totally inadequate before the reality of what people are facing. But we do trust that in Christ you walk with us and enter with us into those injustices and into those tragedies, and you promise that injustice, evil, suffering, pain, none of this has the last word. And so, while we, and certainly my words are inadequate to evaluate those things, we trust that you are not. And in the name of Jesus Christ, your Son, we pray. Amen. [01:04:12] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Rev. Dr. Jared Michelson—Year C Proper 18-21 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 13-17 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Ted Johnston. Ted is a faculty member at Grace Communion Seminary, where he teaches practice of ministry and Christian counseling. He’s the editor of The Surprising God, a blog focused on Trinitarian theology and its application. Ted served 32 years vocational ministry for Grace Communion International as a church pastor, district superintendent, denominational leader of youth programs, regional pastor, and publications editor, before retiring. He earned master’s degrees from Regis University and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Ted, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is the first time we’ve had you on in a few years, welcome back. We’re curious how you are doing and how you’ve been participating with the Lord Jesus Christ these days. Ted: Thank you, Anthony. It’s great to be with you. As you mentioned, I retired from employment with Grace Community International, and that was actually six years ago. It’s hard to believe it’s been that long, but time flies when you’re having fun or something and I have been having some fun. I continued to focus on a lot of the things I did vocationally and that includes the classes that I teach at the seminary, as you mentioned. I also do some coaching of ministers and that’s really my focus in those things professionally, but also individually and personally, is to lean into and to live out of the life that we have in Christ. And that’s the truth of the gospel. It’s the truth of Jesus. It’s what continues to amaze and comfort and motivate me. And to see Christ involved in the midst of all that, that spirit-led journey that we’re having with him is truly remarkable. Is it always easy? No, it’s not. We’ve been through some challenges in my family with health issues and a variety of things, but through it all I have found Jesus to be faithful. And my desire is to testify to that and to be thankful for that. And I am. But real life happens, and sometimes real life is all too real. But the good news is that Jesus is always there. He’s the faithful, ascended, compassionate God-man who always is with us and for us. And by the way, we see that very clearly in the passages that we’re going talk about today. [00:03:25] Anthony: Yeah. Hallelujah. Praise God that he is faithful. And as you stated so clearly, we want to bear witness to that, to testify to the truth of the goodness of God revealed in Jesus Christ. And Ted, as you were saying, we’re you don’t retire from the journey with Jesus. And we’ve got you on a journey during this podcast. We have five passages we’re going to go through, so we’re going to make you work, man. Ted: Okay. Anthony: You may be retired, but you’re going work today, and so let’s get to it. Our first passage of the month is Colossians 3:1–11. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 13 in Ordinary Time, August 3. So if you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth, 3 for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever in you is earthly: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient. 7 These are the ways you also once followed, when you were living that life. 8 But now you must get rid of all such things: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive language from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have stripped off the old self with its practices 10 and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator. 11 In that renewal there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, enslaved and free, but Christ is all and in all! When we see a statement like Christ is seated at the right hand of God, we can too often think spatially, Ted. But there’s more to it, right? Tell us about it. [00:05:57] Ted: Yeah. Well, this passage, like the whole book of Colossians, is about the supremacy of Christ. And to speak of him as being seated is speaking directly to that and using thought forms that the audience that received this to begin with would be very familiar with. I’m reminded that not too long, and not too many days ago, we celebrated Ascension Day, which is part of the liturgical calendar that sadly is often overlooked. But here in Colossians 3, Paul is clearly alluding to that as he refers to Christ seated at the right hand of God, which is indicating a key aspect of the reality of Christ, who Christ is, the eternal son of God, fully God, who via the incarnation, became and remains fully human, God in the flesh who lived, died, suffered, suffered and died and was buried, and on the third day, resurrected and 40 days later, ascended to the throne of God, where, in Paul’s thought form, he remains seated, which is to say exalted. It is not seated, as in oh, let’s take a vacation. It’s talking about his exaltation, the granting to Jesus of all authority, which flies directly in the face of the one who claimed all authority, who was Caesar, that throughout the book of Colossians and elsewhere in his letters Paul pokes at, but Jesus has all this great authority as we’ll see in the book of Hebrews as we proceed. He has that authority as our high priest who is compassionate and yet powerful and united to Christ via his humanity. Our humanity is ascended with him and therefore seated with him. We share in his power and authority. That is a stunning reality with respect to both Christ and humanity, a reality that was fundamental to Paul’s trinitarian, Christ-centered theology and his anthropology. So there, there’s an awful lot right there in this passage that we could go on about, but that’s a little bit of a capsule of what he is talking about when he talks about Christ being seated. [00:08:18] Anthony: You mentioned, we are seated with him. Our humanity is, and in that way, we’re active participants of what’s happening to Christ, and Paul goes on to write in this passage that our lives are hidden in Christ. Then he goes on to say that Christ is our life. Those are brief statements, but Ted, it seems to me there’s quite a lot theologically happening in those declarations. Ted: That’s for sure. Anthony: Help us understand. [00:08:47] Ted: Well, I’ll ask a question. Does my life perfectly reflect the reality that I’m seeing with Christ in heaven? If I’m honest, I’ve got to say no. I’m not proud of that, but it’s the reality. Do people say about me, “Yeah. I see Ted seated with Jesus on the throne of God.” Yeah, probably not. But Paul, being a realist, knows that this is true of us and yet we don’t see it completely. And he would include himself in that and makes mention of that at times in his letters. He does not see himself as being perfected, but he does see himself seated with Christ in the heavenlies, where we share in his perfection. And so, Paul is encouraging us to realize that truth, as remarkable as it is, as hard to grasp as it is. And he encapsulates that by saying that we are hidden in Christ. We don’t see ourselves, others don’t see us in his fullness, and yet we are in Christ. And by faith, we’re able to grasp that glorious reality of who we truly are in him. And what Paul is telling these Christians in Colossae and us by extension, is that we need to be grounded in that truth and let it define us and lean into that truth and allow it to change our minds and thus also our behavior. And that is the essence of Paul’s trinitarian ethics, that we always acknowledge first who we are. That’s the indicatives. The declaration of the Gospel: it says, this is true, as crazy, as wild, as stunning as that seems. This is true. Focusing on that reality of who Jesus is and who we are in him, and let that reality guide and empower us to attend to the imperatives, the commands he gives here to live like Jesus according to the Spirit, to live the way of the new self, the new creation of who we are, truly are, and are becoming in Christ. And Paul uses that same logic throughout his letters as he’s dealing with problems that he’s seeing in these congregations that he is writing to and how relevant that is in our day too. [00:11:06] Anthony: One of the imperatives that you mentioned, if you don’t mind me asking a follow up question? Ted: Sure. Anthony: He said we must get rid of wrath. And yet in verse six we see that the wrath of God is coming. So, is God practicing something he’s not preaching? How … you know, somebody maybe that’s new to scripture and they see, I’m supposed to as a Christian to get rid of wrath in my life, but God has wrath. How do you reconcile those two things, Ted? [00:11:36] Ted: I think we have to be careful to not say: I don’t like that term, the wrath of God; so, Paul can’t possibly mean that. [00:11:45] Anthony: Yeah. [00:11:45] Ted: Paul’s giving a pretty definitive warning, but a warning is different than a proclamation of what is actually going to happen. So there’s that. So, he’s not trying to guilt people into good behavior. He is not trying to scare the hell out of them, so to speak, but he is saying, look, this is a serious matter. But you can’t, you can’t deal with the issue of behavior through coercion, through shaming, through guilt. And so, he’s not intending to do that. And I think one then has to have a broader view of what the wrath of God is. And he doesn’t address that here, but he does elsewhere that God’s wrath is fundamentally expression of the actual nature of God, which is love and all that he does toward us and for us is motivated by his love, is directed by his love, and that includes the times he needs to correct us. And ultimately, God is going to remove from us those things that are contrary to the true reality of who we are in Christ. And so, if you want to term that an expression of his wrath, that’s okay, but you have to understand the context and you have to understand what God’s motivation is and the tactics, so to speak, that he uses. And so, there’s a warning here. It’s like folks we’re talking about stuff that is really serious, and there were a lot of things going on in the church in Colossae that needed to be corrected. But ultimately his emphasis is on the indicatives, not the imperatives. The imperatives always follow behind the indicatives, and that’s really important to know. [00:13:28] Anthony: Amen. Amen and amen. And as I heard someone recently say, we can only grow as much as our willingness to be corrected in life and … Ted: How true. Anthony: It is a practical truth. Ted: Yeah, that’s for sure. Anthony: Let’s transition to our second pericope of the month. It is Hebrews 11:1–3, 8–16. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 14 in Ordinary Time, August 10. Ted, read it for us please. [00:13:58] Ted: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, and he set out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he stayed for a time in the land he had been promised, as in a foreign land, living in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he looked forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith, with Sarah’s involvement, he received power of procreation, even though he was too old, because he considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one person, and this one as good as dead, descendants were born, “as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.” 13 All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, 14 for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better homeland, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them. [00:15:38] Anthony: The writer of Hebrews states over and over by faith. So, let me ask you this, Ted, what is faith and what role does it play in salvation? Is it an individual thing, a corporate thing, both or something else entirely? [00:15:54] Ted: In, verse one, as I read, faith, says the author, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Commentators disagree a lot about the precise meaning of the Greek words that the author is using here. And some translations look at faith as a feeling of being sure. And other translations think of it as a substance or the content of our hope. Probably the latter is the most accurate. But rather than trying to define faith, the author of Hebrews is actually describing one of the results that faith has in our lives. So, it’s … I wouldn’t look at that necessarily as a definitive definition, but it is telling us this is what happens in your life if you have, if you practice faith. Faith involves believing and acting on something that is not seen, something we cannot see. And this is the quality of faith that the author especially wants the readers to imitate. One possible translation would be faith is the reality of things hoped for, the proof of things not seen. And I think the thought here is that faith moves us in the direction of realizing things that are presently beyond demonstration. By faith, we anticipate, and so, at least, in part, we experience the reality of what is believed. And though faith does not bring about that reality, contrary to some teachings, it does provide a window, if you will, through which we are able, at least in part, to view that reality, to see the unseen, so to speak. We see this kind of faith lived out in Abraham’s life, and that is the principal, or a principal example that he gives. Without physical evidence to rely on, Abraham stepped out in faith in the direction of God’s promise — literally in that case. And as believers we’re called to do the same. The reality we believe in and focus on by faith is our coming resurrection, which means our glorification entering into the fullness of our salvation. And though that reality is yet to be seen in faith, we rely on it. We move toward it, we lean into it, we allow it to shape our thinking, and thus, our behavior right now and doing so is not about earning salvation through faith, but about living into the promises of God who is faithful. He can be trusted. That trust, that reliance is the essence of faith, our faithful response to the promises of our faithful God. So that’s kind of a definition, if you will, but it’s the results of possessing that faith that the author is interested in. And so, he offers the example of Abraham. [00:18:54] Anthony: Yeah, it’s somewhat akin to the work of the Holy Spirit, which is sometimes just described as this wind blowing. You don’t know where it comes from or where it comes from or where it’s going, but you see the evidence of the work and the presence of the Holy Spirit often in fruit, that it’s being born in somebody’s life. And you may not see it in the moment, but you see the results. And what I hear you saying is you see the results of faith. It looks like stepping out and trusting, and ultimately, isn’t that what belief and faith are all about? It’s trusting the one who is good and is faithful to himself and to his promises. Hallelujah. Praise God. Amen. The writer of Hebrews talks about desiring a better homeland as it’s put in verse 16. Ted: Yes. Anthony: What’s going on there? What does that mean? What does that look like? Tell us more. [00:19:48] Ted: He’s using an example for the fullness of salvation by pointing to something that his audience would’ve been very familiar with, and that is that the type of salvation in the Old Testament is the land of Canaan, called the promised land. It was the homeland that was promised to Abraham and his offspring. The homeland for us is defined in scripture as a new heaven, a new earth, the ultimate promised land, if you will. And that’s the reality toward which we, in faith, walk. And I would add to that, even if the road is tough. And Hebrews speaks a lot about how tough that road can be, and urges us to persevere, for in faith we see what lies in the future for us. By the way we saw that in Colossians, where we are already there in that homeland, if you will — as our humanity, united to Christ is ascended and seated with Christ, just to point back to what we just saw in Colossians. But when Christ returns and we are resurrected and glorified, we will be home — home in all of its fullness, all of its glory. [00:21:01] Anthony: Quicken that day, Lord Jesus Christ. [00:21:04] Ted: Yeah, and that’s a better homeland. [00:21:06] Anthony: Amen, man. Let’s go! Let’s go on to our next pericope of the month. It’s Hebrews 11:29–12:2. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 15 in Ordinary Time, August 17. By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as if it were dry land, but when the Egyptians attempted to do so they were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had received the spies in peace. 32 And what more should I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, in order to obtain a better resurrection. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned to death; they were sawn in two; they were killed by the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, persecuted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God. Tortured, flogging, stoned to death, sawn in two, killed by the sword — what should we learn about, rejoice in, and soberly consider about our brothers and sisters of old? [00:23:59] Ted: Yeah, that’s quite a passage, sometimes called the Hall of Faith, right? A little background here I think would be helpful. It’s important to understand that Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians who were bailing on the church. At least some of them were. They had accepted Jesus as their Messiah. They were Jews who accepted Jesus as the promised Messiah, and because of that, they were ostracized by the Jewish community in which they lived, even their own families. As a result of that, they were targets of persecution. And some in order to avoid persecution, were returning to the Jewish faith. That’s the context here. And so, the author of Hebrews, whoever that was, we’re not sure, writes to them to encourage and exhort them to stay the course, to persevere, to continue following Jesus despite persecution. And in this passage gives examples from their own history of men and women, who did just that, who remained faithful to God despite dangers in their journey, sometimes terrible persecution, sometimes even martyrdom. And all of these, we call them saints, died in the faith awaiting the fullness of what they hoped for, which they had not yet experienced. And that’s the fullness of salvation, which is yet to come, in the coming resurrection. I mentioned that before. That’s the homeland for which we are looking and hoping and focusing on, and that is what helps get us through the difficult times that we often face. To sort of paraphrase Paul, if in this life only we have Christ and we don’t have this hope of the resurrection, we’re of all men most miserable. Now, not a lot of us can say we’re being terribly persecuted for following Christ in this day and age, although I know some folks who in other parts of the world from where I am in the United States are indeed. And that’s part of the experience. And there is a real need to keep this focus on the future. And it’s helpful to have this great cloud of witness that these examples of faithful Christians. Or faithful people of God. Some many of them were pre-Christian, if you will, who remain faithful despite the difficulties they face. And Paul, not Paul, but the author of Hebrews is wanting these people to remain faithful despite what they were going through. [00:26:36] Anthony: You mentioned the great cloud of witnesses. Hallelujah. Thank God for them found in 2:1. And what I want to ask you to do, invite you to do, is exegete Hebrews 12:1–2. And Ted, feel free to preach, preacher. Let’s hear. [00:26:53] Ted: Yeah, I have gotten into that already, but I mentioned these examples they were to follow, but it’s also important to say to them, and this is what Paul is saying, is that they are to remain faithful to Jesus, and Jesus himself is the epitome of faithfulness. These others point us in that direction, but it’s Jesus himself who is the great faithful one, who is the supreme witness, the pioneer and perfecter, the author says, of faith, of our faith, of the faith that we have been given. How is that true? His own journey, his race consisted of enduring the cross and its shame. And by virtue of that endurance, he crossed the finish line and took his seat at the right hand of the throne of God. He triumphed. And the point is that in our journey, our race, which does require perseverance, sometimes there is suffering, but the message is, “But be encouraged — you do not run alone.” We have a faithful high priest — and he’ll speak about Jesus’ high priesthood later in this book — who has gone through it all before on our behalf, a high priest who understands, who intercedes for us, and perhaps not always delivering us from the trouble, but listen, but always there with us, encouraging, aiding, sometimes crying with us, sharing in our sufferings. So, my friends, be encouraged. Continue to run the race of faith, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. [00:28:29] Anthony: What Ted just did there for our friends in the listening audience is the best kind of preaching, I believe, which leaves the congregation talking about Jesus, not the preacher, not even the sermon per se, but the God revealed in Jesus Christ. May it be so in our preaching. Thanks, Ted. Let’s transition to the next pericope, it’s Hebrews 12:18–29. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 16 in Ordinary Time, August 24. Ted, we’d be grateful if you read it. [00:29:06] Ted: You have not come to something that can be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that not another word be spoken to them. 20 (For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned to death.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”) 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 25 See that you do not refuse the one who is speaking, for if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject the one who warns from heaven! 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of what is shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable worship with reverence and awe, 29 for indeed our God is a consuming fire. [00:30:44] Anthony: Since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude. Hallelujah. Ted, Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant. Those are, that was, an eight-word statement, but a lot of work is being done there. It’s good news. Why is it such good news in the here and now? [00:31:02] Ted: Yes. If we had about 12 hours, I would explain it to you in detail, [00:31:08] Anthony: which we don’t, but [00:31:09] Ted: … we don’t. So, suffice it to say that the author of the book of Hebrews, whoever he or she is, is comparing and contrasting the old covenant with a new covenant. And this letter, this sermon really is addressed to Jewish Christians who are extremely familiar with the old covenant. They’d grown up living by its precepts, but now have embraced Jesus who is himself the new covenant, and he is urging them and urging us by extension to understand the superiority of the new as compared to the old. Some of them, of course, were being tempted to turn away from the new and return back to the order of the old, because that was what was familiar to them. That was what was comfortable, was kind of safe for them. And I don’t mean to condemn those folks. If I were going through what they were going through, I don’t know what I would do. But he wants them to keep their eyes focused on Jesus, who is the new covenant. To leave the new is to turn one’s back on Jesus, who mediates the new covenant. One might say as I’ve already said, that he himself really is the new covenant, the new relationship between God and humanity found in the person of the incarnate, Son of God, Jesus Christ. And here’s the good news and a source of encouragement to them, and I hope and encouragement and hope to us — Jesus is God and can be trusted. [00:32:47] Anthony: I say it again. We are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken because God cannot be shaken. So, we should show gratitude. It’s expressed in verse 28 and the writer of Hebrews goes on to continue the thought by heralding God as a consuming fire. I’m curious, how do these things go together? [00:33:10] Ted: As I mentioned before the author is drawing from the Old Testament, in other words, the Hebrew scriptures, which these Jewish Christians were very familiar with and using stories and symbols, events that were very familiar to them and the language that’s being used here he is drawing directly from Israel’s experience in the Exodus and which God revealed his presence to Israel in a cloud by day and by fire at night. And even back to the story of the burning bush. These were signs of the presence of God that left the Israelites awestruck, but now the author is saying, you Jewish Christians, and all Christians today, now that you and the person of Jesus see how the new covenant operates, don’t lose that sense of awe, that sense of reverence that will allow you to turn your back on Jesus. Instead of under appreciating Jesus and what he gives us, be full of gratitude. For it is, I’m going to say, reverent gratitude that so powerfully shapes our affections and directs our steps. Is worship important? It’s important because God is due worship, but it’s also important to the worshipers, because it instills in us that reverent awe, and that is extremely important, especially in the hard times, times when we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, to quote from that familiar psalm. And so, to keep in mind of who it is that we are worshiping and to cultivate that reverent awe, that sense of gratitude towards God is extremely important for how we walk this journey with Christ, which sometimes can be very difficult. [00:35:11] Anthony: I think you’ve said something vitally important because there’s a misunderstanding sometimes, especially from critics of Christianity, that God is somehow this needy, self-absorbed God who needs our worship. Ted: Yeah. Anthony: He doesn’t. Ted: No. Anthony: No, but as you pointed to, he’s worthy of it for certain, for what he has revealed in Jesus Christ, but also it does something to us, just like praying. It changes the person who is praying, not the one being prayed to, he’s the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is good. Ted: Yes. Anthony: He doesn’t have to be conditioned to be good. He is good. But it does something to our hearts and I think that’s so important for us to see God. God is not needy. He is completely full of harmony and love and is satisfied, but he chose to create out of love and hallelujah that we get to participate in that. And just a final word before we transition to our final passage of the month. As Hebrews says, Jesus’ blood speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hallelujah. Our final passage of the month is Hebrews 13:1–8, 15–16. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 17 in Ordinary Time, August 31. Let mutual affection continue. 2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels without knowing it. 3 Remember those who are in prison, as though you were in prison with them, those who are being tortured, as though you yourselves were being tortured. 4 Let marriage be held in honor by all, and let the marriage bed be kept undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have, for he himself has said, “I will never leave you or forsake you.” 6 So we can say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can anyone do to me?” 7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. “Keep your lives free from the love of money,” verse 5 says, “and be content with what you have.” What might you say about this? A prophetic word, a social commentary. What does the church need to hear about this, Ted? Ted: Don’t get me going. Anthony: Well, I’m inviting you to, actually. [00:38:10] Ted: I don’t mean to get on my high horse because this speaks to my heart and is convicting, but I must say that the author of Hebrews … Anthony: Yes. Ted: … is certainly focusing in now on ethical matters. He is getting at the reality of his readers’ everyday life, and what they are thinking, what really motivates them, and therefore what they are doing. And he’s urging them to embrace, and through a Christ-like life, show forth the truth and power of the gospel. You talk about evangelism; you talk about our Christ-like example in the world has a lot to do with how we live. And we don’t do it to impress people. We don’t do it for the favor of people. We do it because that’s the way Christ is, and we’re participating in his life. And one specific behavior that he zeroes in on is living in contentment — free from a love of money is part of that. Money representing material goods, certainly an issue for these folks because following Jesus was often leading to them losing their way to make money. Their businesses were being closed down because of it. Their Jewish neighbors wouldn’t do business with them. And that’s an issue for us today. Did they, do we, love money more than Jesus? It’s a challenge in a world that it becomes increasingly materialistic. Maybe we don’t have the same kinds of problems or temptations that they did in that respect, but we certainly face that challenge today. And we are challenged to ask ourselves, are we generous with what we possess? Do we use our resources in order to offer hospitality to strangers, is the example he gives, which by the way, them being Jews familiar with the Old Testament, with Hebrew scriptures would have thought of those passages in the Hebrew scriptures that talk about the necessity of caring for people who are strangers among us — foreigners, if you will. That’s certainly an issue in our world today, especially in the United States and other fairly wealthy nations. If you don’t mind, I’d like to read something that I ran across from Walter Brueggeman on that very issue. This is from Away, Other Than Our Own devotional for Lent. He said: I believe the crisis in the United States Church has almost nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It has everything to do with giving up on the faith and discipline of our Christian baptism, settling for a common generic US identity that is part patriotism, part consumerism, part violence, and part affluence. That’s not an easy thing for people who are affluent and living in luxury — you and I, both, we live in luxury compared to most people in the world and certainly most people in history. And it’s easy to be seduced by that. And so, we have to look to Jesus, who though he experienced some physical blessings, I suppose you could say, would never grasp for those things. And he always shared what he had, even if it was very little. And we’re challenged to do the same thing, to show that kind of hospitality, to embrace strangers and to live in contentment, not to always be constantly trying to grasp for more. And that is a challenge to us, and, I think, one that that makes me stop and think about it and we should stop and think we should be aware of that. The reason for it is in order for us to share more fully in the way of Jesus and to live a Christ-like life that can be seen by others and therefore help them to see Jesus. And so there we are. He’s ending on a pretty strong note with these folks and it’s a word of correction for sure. [00:42:43] Anthony: It is, because if the church looks exactly like the world and its priorities, how can the church bear witness to Christ? How can it be an agent of change in the world? You mentioned Walter Brueggeman. We’re recording this episode in June, and yes, Walter died within the past week and he was an Old Testament scholar, theologian, and a gift to the church. And I just want to commend his book on Prophetic Imagination to our listening audience. It’s a powerful word, and it’s a challenging word. And the church throughout its history has had to be challenged from time to time. And I think what you just said is really an important word for all of us. Ted, we’re on the gun lap coming around to the end here, and I wanted to close with this. The writer of Hebrews says that Jesus will never leave you or forsake you, verse 5. The Lord is my helper, verse 6. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, verse 8. So why don’t we end the episode with a proclamation of that good news of God revealed in Jesus Christ. [00:43:56] Ted: Yeah. Both the passage we read in Colossians, and now this in Hebrews — those were written nearly 2000 years ago, are really relevant today. And the reason for that is because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. What that means is he is steady. He can be counted on. He is faithful, always faithful, and that’s great good news for us because Jesus, who is fully God and fully human, is very much alive and is with us and can be counted on at any time in any circumstance, whether that be true in first century Judea or 21st century North America or any continent on the face of this earth. Jesus is the pioneer and perfecter of our faith and can be trusted, trusted to never leave us or forsake us. And so, we may place fully our trust in him. By God’s grace, trusting in Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, we may, we must trust and follow him with reverence, perseverance, gratitude, and courage. [00:45:12] Anthony: And there you have it folks. Ted, it’s great to have you back. We’ve worked together in various ministry capacities through the years and we haven’t had a chance to catch up in months. It’s great to chat with you brother about the good news revealed in Jesus and holy scripture. Tec: Likewise. Anthony: This has been really sweet to have you on. And as a final word to our listening audience, I want to remind you, God has torn the temple curtain. Ted: Amen. Anthony: And nothing you can do can mend it. It is done. It is finished. Grace has conquered. Jesus has conquered all. And so, as the writer of Hebrews pointed us to, and Colossians pointed us to, cast off that old life, there’s something better awaiting us. The promise of what is to come, new heaven and new earth, and let us move forward in the power of the Holy Spirit. I want to thank the team of people that helped make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s a joy to work with them. And again, Ted, it was a joy to have you on the podcast, and as is our traditional end, we’d like for you to close us with a word of prayer. [00:46:19] Ted: Sure. Let’s pray. Father, as we bring this time and your word to a close. We thank you for the great cloud of witnesses that you have given us. We thank you for your faithfulness to us through your Son and by your Spirit, for the way you have led your people to testify by their lives, and sometimes their deaths, to your goodness and grace. Father, in this life, we often face great difficulties. Help us when we do to not be discouraged or distracted. Help us not to compromise or give up. And Lord Jesus, our high priest, keep our eyes fixed on you. And Holy Spirit, turn our eyes and our hearts toward Jesus. Give us that grace of perseverance. Strengthen our faith. Grant us a compelling vision of the fullness of our salvation that is coming in a new heaven and a new earth, the home for which we long. And now, Father, may you who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead, our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, equip us, equip those who are hearing this, with everything good for doing your will. And Father, may you work in us what is pleasing to you through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. In his name we pray. Amen. [00:47:40] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!The post Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 13-17 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

Andrew Torrance—Year C Proper 9-12 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Andrew Torrance. Andrew is a professor of theology at the University of St. Andrew’s School of Divinity. He’s also the co-director of the Logos Institute of Analytical and Exegetical Theology, along with Oliver Crisp. Dr. Torrance is a member of a group of scholars organized by BioLogos, exploring the nature of human identity and personhood. Recently he finished co-writing with Alan Torrance, the book Beyond Eminence, the Theological Vision of Kierkegaard and Barth. Andrew, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on the pod, we’d like to know a little bit about you, your story, and how you are participating with Jesus these days. Andrew: Okay. Thank you, Anthony. It’s really great to be here. And it’s always hard to know where to start, when I say something about who I am. But as you mentioned, I teach theology at the University of St. Andrews. I see that as my primary calling. And serving the church in this world through working with students and helping them to really know and understand who the triune God of love is, and how we in creation relate to that God. And so that’s my primary calling in this world. But I’m also actively involved in the church very well in the Church of Scotland as an elder. And actually, recently though, I’ve been more involved in a denomination called United Free Church, where I’ve been attending a slightly different congregation for a while. I was very involved with in a fresh expression of ministry in St. Andrews, where we ran a breakfast church in St. Andrews. But for a variety of reasons, COVID wasn’t great for a breakfast church, and so we ended up having a hiatus, which sort of ended up finishing that ministry. Since then, I’ve been taking a bit of a season of time out from being more actively involved in church ministry. But I’m going to be starting doing a bit more preaching things again and being involved in different ways as well. Yeah, that’s me. [00:03:03] Anthony: I mentioned in the introduction Andrew, that you wrote a book called Beyond Eminence, and I’m just curious. I haven’t had a chance to read it, but I plan to. So, what insights are you hoping somebody like me will take away from the reading experience? [00:03:18] Andrew: Great. So, there’s a variety of different topics that we’re covering in that book.  It’s primarily a book thinking about the relationship between Kierkegaard and Karl Barth. But I think what makes them so interesting as thinkers is that there are two thinkers that really center their theology and their Christian vision on the reality of Jesus Christ, what it means to participate in that reality and to follow Jesus Christ in a world that is always resisting that reality. And particularly it’s interesting to think about them in the respective context as they sought to understand the gospel in ways that were resistant to forms of Christian nationalism, a Christendom context that’s kind of enculturated Christianity in ways that merged it with a lot of what was going on in society to the detriment of the gospel. And so, what they tried to present was something that was entirely new and fresh, to really speak God’s words in a new way to their context, in ways that was both challenging, but also affirming people, and encouraging them with a hope for there being so much more to the nature of this world as a world that’s created by God, and while that’s created by God to find its fulfillment in Jesus Christ. [00:04:33] Anthony: And it sounds timely. And I’m just curious, you co-wrote it with Alan Torrance. Did your dad try to boss you around with the text, tell you what to write? [00:04:44] Andrew: It was definitely an ongoing conversation. So, I actually did my PhD on Karl Barth, and so I actually wrote my half before he really started working on his half. But then, yes, I wrote my part here at his house. And then I made a lot of changes based on what he wrote, and then there was a bit of, quite a bit of a back and forth over a few years. And yeah, yeah, there was no bossing around, but it was, yeah, there was definitely a constructive conversation going on. [00:05:16] Anthony: Sure. Sure. I look forward to getting the book and let’s do this, let’s dive into the lectionary text that we have this month. That’s why we’re here. Our first pericope of the month is Galatians 6:7–16. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 9 in Ordinary Time, July 6. Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. 8 If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh, but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up. 10 So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all and especially for those of the family of faith. 11 See what large letters I make when I am writing in my own hand! 12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who try to compel you to be circumcised—only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Even the circumcised do not themselves obey the law, but they want you to be circumcised so that they may boast about your flesh. 14 May I never boast of anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation is everything! 16 As for those who will follow this rule—peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Andrew, how would you explain sowing to the flesh versus sowing to the Spirit, which we find in verse 8. And how can this text be read without being overly prescriptive or sounding like karma dressed up in Christianity? [00:07:16] Andrew: Great, thank you, Anthony. So, the sow to the Spirit is to recognize first that the reality of something going on in this world that is so much greater than the ways in which we define the world for ourselves. And that’s something theological. It’s witnessing to the triune God and the particular ways in which God is working in the world. And following Pentecost, God works in the world through the Spirit, who is at work in the church animating and empowering our lives to express something that goes beyond what is on the kind of the surface of this world. Those things that appear to us immediately. And so often, the habits of the way we interpret the world, is to reduce the reality to what is immediately in front of us, to allow our basic instincts to determine the direction of our lives, to let this world as it’s kind of closed in its own kind of bubble to be what defines all that there is in this world. And what it means to sow to the Spirit is to seek the more to reality, and that more to reality is the way in which God is defining it from beyond the ways in which the world might try to define itself. Okay? And so that means that we are called to participate in something that is beyond our every expectation. Okay? So, this kind of way we might think about balance and forms of karma, is to operate in very human categories. Where there it’s dealing with the work of the Spirit, there’s something incredibly inspiring and just very new, which means that we’re constantly required to seek God in ways that allow him to speak to us in new ways, to guide our lives in new directions. And that means transformation — to receive and to sow our life to the Spirit is to be people that are transformed in ways that align us with God’s kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven. [00:09:22] Anthony: I didn’t plan to ask you this question, so I hope you don’t mind, but as I’m looking at verse 9, it talks about not growing weary and doing good. And there’s that preposition “if”, and it can sound very conditional: “if you don’t give up.” Is there a word of good news for somebody who maybe in their walk with Christ right now who is just feeling like they want to give up? Is there something we can take away from that as good news? [00:09:51] Andrew: What this verse is doing with its “if” isn’t simply prescriptive, it’s descriptive. And what this verse is doing is telling you about the reality of things that gives people a sense of security and a groundedness that is beyond what they’re able to achieve for themselves. And it encourages people to rest, to embrace that kind of Sabbath reality. And when they’re weary, to take time out to seek God and to seek a form of empowerment and inspiration and energy that they just don’t have the capacity to achieve. I think when some things are taken out of our hands, when we recognize that there’s something beyond us that is securing our lives in this world, that can give people a sense of peace and rest. But with any answer like this, we’ve got to know the specifics of the situations and the struggles that people are facing, I think, in order to address them better. But I think simply being, simply recognizing that the gospel calls people to a sense of peace and rest in order for them to be empowered to be witnesses to the reality of the gospel, I think that’s something that should ease the minds of people that are experiencing stress and anxiety in their lives. [00:11:09] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word, Andrew. You talked about just resting and I have found, just my own personal experience and you mentioned this as well, discerning the particularity of the situation. But when I grow weary, I’m trying to do too much on my own like by my own strength and my own might, which is fragile, anemic at best. And so, leaning on Christ, as you said. And we read here, Paul writes in verse 15, that new creation is everything. Okay, everything. So, what’s he getting at? [00:11:46] Andrew: There’s so many things that can be got at with these words. How I take them is that Paul is challenging the ways in which we are living in the old creation. In some ways, as I said already, we settle into the patterns of this world and make that world everything. We settle into the patterns of the flesh, we make these patterns, everything. And when we recognize the reality of who God is for us in Jesus Christ, and we recognize the ways in which we’re embraced constantly by the power of the Holy Spirit, that requires us to recognize that this newness is everything. It is everywhere. It surrounds us. It’s elevating us into experiencing reality in a way that is transformative. And to say that this newness is everywhere and that it is, everything, resists our desire to guess It. I think when we, it’s so easy for us to compartmentalize in ways that puts our Christian faith into a small quarter in the room, into a small box, maybe a box we open on a Sunday morning, or maybe when we open a few times a day when we pray. And we compartmentalize our lives in ways that means that we’re not always living into that reality. And what this verse tells us is to say, no, you shouldn’t be doing that. This is fundamental to every aspect of your lives, and unless you learn to interpret your bias, you’re calling in this world more than that, you’re going to be deluded. You’re going to be living into the old passions of this world, so into the flesh in ways that means that you’re missing out on what is actually going on. You’re asleep, you’re not awakened to the reality of the worth of the Spirit. [00:13:33] Anthony: Wake up, O sleeper. Let’s go. Alright, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is Colossians 1:1–14. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 10 in Ordinary Time on July 13. Andrew, would you read it for us, please? [00:13:54] Andrew: Yes, of course. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ in Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.  3 In our prayers for you we always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 for we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel 6 that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God. 7 This you learned from Epaphras, our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, 8 and he has made known to us your love in the Spirit. 9 For this reason, since the day we heard it, we have not ceased praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of God’s will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, as you bear fruit in every good work and as you grow in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, so that you may have all endurance and patience, joyfully 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. [00:15:43] Anthony: Whew. That’s a mouthful. There’s a lot going on here. And I’m curious. Before I get into the questions, I wanted to ask you when we come to scripture, the first question of theology is, who is God being revealed in Jesus Christ? So, what would you want to say to a congregation, your congregation, about God as revealed in this text? [00:16:04] Andrew: Very simply, it’s easy to think about God as this kind of transcendent reality that doesn’t really engage with us in this world in a way that we can really see and be receptive to, that is tangible. So often, when we talk about God, we think about spirituality in ways that are very removed from the world in which we find ourselves. Anthony: Yeah. Andrew: And that’s just not the case. The heart of the Christian message is the fact that God becomes one amongst us in and through the eternal Son, assuming human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, such that we are given a clarity into who he understands humanity to be, and communicates to us with a much, much greater clarity than anywhere else about who God is for us in this person. So, we can, we should, of course, take seriously the whole of scripture. But I think at the heart, the core of scripture is this revelation of God’s very self in this person of Jesus Christ that kind of gives us a center, a clarity as to who God really is. There is no God behind Jesus Christ. God is with us in and through the very person, Jesus Christ. And so, if we really want to know God, we look to this person. And if we come … we often hear things that might make us nervous about who Jesus Christ is. And in those times, we can set our eyes upon Jesus and get a clarity. Just, I often find myself asking myself, “Can I imagine these words being in the mouth of Jesus Christ.” And if I can’t, I think that should really give me pause, in questioning, in asking whether it really is telling us something about who God is and the way that God relates to the world. [00:18:02] Anthony: I’m really grateful for that, because as we come to my next question about walking worthy of the Lord, it’s a phrase that we see often in Pauline epistles. And if we’re not looking to Jesus Christ, we can be thrown back on ourselves, that, “Oh man, I’ve got to buckle up here and walk worthy.” And there’s a both/and, right? There’s the fact that Jesus walked worthy of the Lord and thanks be to God. So, I wanted to know what does this phrase mean to the original hearers? And how should we interpret this imperative and live accordingly? [00:18:42] Andrew: So, it’s always hard to work out exactly, but it means the original hearers. But I suspect it probably means something similar to how we would hear it today, insofar as I understand it this far. And that’s saying that we need to live in a way that is true to the person Jesus Christ, and also to his ministry, to the ministry to which he calls us — is to recognize the importance of embracing his call on our lives, to seeing his call as a story, descriptive of the ways in which we live our lives in this world. Okay? So very simply, I think it means that we need to live our lives in a way that takes Jesus seriously. And it’s by doing that, that we come to reflect the reality of who he is into this world, that we live our lives in a way that bears witness to this reality of the gospel. And now, I think in some ways this is a … we have quite simple methods. We just need to follow Jesus Christ in ways that really take seriously who he is and what he is calling us to. But this is something that all the time, I think the church is failing to do in this world. So many of the ways in which Christians are represented in the world, I just do not think reflect the reality of who Jesus Christ is. And I often find myself just thinking, when I hear Christians say things that I think are a bit dashed, I just wish they would really take a bit more time to reflect on the ministry of Jesus Christ and ask themselves whether the kinds of things they’re saying about what the church should be in this world is really reflecting on the ministry of Jesus. [00:20:18] Anthony: And what you just said strikes me as thinking about Karl Barth. I think it was Barth that talked about how all of us need to be theologians, ultimately, which is our understanding of God, our God talk, our God speech, that we really do need to think, and God has given us his highest resolution of himself in the person of Jesus, right? So, it goes to what you said — taking Jesus seriously. And so, with that in mind, I ask a question that we find parked in verses 12 and 14. It seems to me as we exegete those verses, God is making all the salvific moves, not us. So, what is your theological take for preachers and teachers who will be proclaiming this text to their congregations? [00:21:05] Andrew: Yeah, I think it was just absolutely right. This verse says that our salvation, our redemption, is fundamentally grounded in what God is doing for us in and through the person of Jesus Christ. It’s not something that God is starting to do and then putting things in our hands to finish a job. Everything about redemption is accomplished in and through the person of Jesus Christ. Okay, so redemption has been established as a reality for this world. It’s a reality for creation. This world has been made new in and through the person of Jesus Christ. But, of course, when you look around in this world, we see so many ways in which this world continues to be broken, to be confused, to be sinful. And that’s because we’re sleeping. We’re sleeping to the reality of redemption, and we are needing to be woken up from our slumber. We need to allow the Spirit to empower our lives so that we can reflect the reality of redemption, the reality of this good news, of the fact that all things have been made new in and through Jesus Christ. And by waking up we become people that are living into God’s kingdom, that are participating in God’s kingdom of redemption, and that enables us to become empowered as witnesses to that reality, to become people who are showing the inauguration of God’s kingdom in this world. And when we do that, when we participate in God’s kingdom, one thing that I think that we need to become clear as we grow into this redeemed reality is that we need to stop pretending to be the kings and queens over our own kingdoms, to recognize that we’re participating in something that is far greater. And again, this is in some ways, it’s an obvious theological point to make. But there’s ways in which we, it’s almost a default for us, to keep returning to seeing ourselves as the center of this world, the kind primary or authority over our lives. There are so many ways in which I think autonomy can be understood to be a good thing and a proper thing, but there’s ways in which you can often overemphasize it in ways that allows us to view ourselves as the primary meaning makers of what this world is all about. And that’s just not the case. And so far as we are redeemed, we’re called to discover who we are as new persons, and through Jesus Christ we’re called to see this is what redemption means — that all things have been made new. And this is something that we need to see. We need to open our eyes and our ears. We need to wake up and smell a coffee. And that’s not something that we can do again by ourselves, but something we depend upon the Spirit to do in our lives. We need to know. And we need to go to places to participate in life, in church, to go to practices, to pray, to read our scripture, because it’s through these things that the Spirit is working the world again, encouraging us to wake up and smell the coffee. [00:24:08] Anthony: Yeah, that’s interesting, it’s been years since I’ve studied it, but if I remember correctly, the word redemption there in the Greek is apolytrōsis. Which means to be set free just for freedom’s sake, not to be used by the master in abusive ways, but to be set free. And once you’ve been set free, you want to go with the one that set you free, who has made that salvific move. And to participate in his reality — like you said, to wake up. And this is something, I don’t know if you face it in the UK, but here in the United States, man, everybody wants agency and they’re just demanding agency. But agency has to be understood in the light of Jesus Christ, right? That, yes, I get to participate, but I’m not the master of my own domain. I’m not the king or queen, as you said. That is such an important word, don’t you think for today’s scenario? [00:25:10] Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that we forget, in some of the ways in which we think about what freedom is, that we often think that freedom is the freedom to do whatever. But when we’re thinking about what the freedom is as it’s defined by the gospel, freedom involves us being awakened to see the prisons in which we are enslaving ourselves by sin, that it’s to open our eyes to the problem of sin, to make ourselves conscious of sin as something that is not freeing us, but constraining us in a state of bondage, and that we are tying ourselves down from embracing the reality of who we truly are as we are known by God. And when we do that, we don’t flourish in the way that we are truly called to flourish in this world. We can’t know who we truly are unless we know the one who truly knows us. [00:26:02] Anthony: Bam. There it is. Let’s pivot to our next pericope for the month. It is Colossians 1:15–28. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 11 and Ordinary Time, July 20. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. 21 And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through death, so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a minister of this gospel. 24 I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. 25 I became its minister according to God’s commission that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations but has now been revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 It is he whom we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone in all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ. Glory hallelujah. This pericope is a breathtaking Christological tour-de-force.  Take it away. Andrew. I just want to give you an opportunity to riff on the text. [00:28:45] Andrew: Great, thank you. I know we’re not allowed to have favorite passages and scripture. Anthony: Yes, you are. Let’s go for it. Andrew: But this is definitely up there for me, and there’s just so much going on in this passage. And I could write books, if I had the time. But I just really want to focus in on something that I think is just really central in this passage that I think is so neglected by the church today. I think so often when Christians try to understand what creation is all about, how we understand the doctrine of creation, we often just turn to the early chapters of Genesis. And that sometimes means that we end up, in fact it does mean very often, that we end up with a vision of what creation is that neglects Jesus Christ. It is … what often ends up happening is, Jesus Christ ends up becoming this person that turns up later as kind of God’s plan B to make the world become good like it was in the beginning. And what Colossians 1 tells us is that, no, from the very beginning, Jesus Christ was a part of the plan for creation. Now, God creates the world in, through, and for the person of Jesus Christ. We can’t understand what creation is apart from the conclusion for which God prepared it. The reason, the very reason that God created the world, was so that the Son could be born. And what’s significant about that is that God, or at least the scripture, is revealing the fact that creation is to be identified with the person of Jesus Christ. And through him we are drawn to participate in the triune koinonia, the triune communion that shapes the life of God. We are not just created to exist in and of ourselves. God doesn’t just create the world to live on its own terms, to leave it be, and then remove God’s self into the transcendence in which God lives. Now God is with us, not just through his presence, but in and through the very humanity of his Son, Jesus Christ. And it’s that to which God creates the world. What is fundamental to understanding what creation is, is the person of Jesus Christ. God creates the world not to find its end in itself. And we often think about creation as having value in and of itself, as being an end in itself. But theology, Christian theology resists that. We’re not called to be ends in and of ourselves, but to be a creation that finds its end in God. And the way in which we find our end in God is by God becoming one with creation, so that in him, in the very person of the Son according to his humanity, humanity would be, and not just humanity, but the whole creation would be at one with God. And so, it’s in this very person that creation finds fulfillment. And so, in order for creation to be all that it was created to be, it needs to come to know the way in which God has identified it with the person of the Son. So, it is in and through him that we come to know what creation is all about. Again, when we just think about Genesis 1, it becomes very easy for us to just try to understand creation as something that God created that has its own kind of meaning and character that God has then left to itself. But that’s just not the case. We have to always understand that the starting point for understanding creation, and the ending point, is this person of Jesus Christ. [00:32:29] Anthony: Yeah. Just thinking about the telos, the ending — we’re in the Christian calendar in the season of Eastertide and last week we were in John 20 where Mary of Magdala encounters the risen Lord. And she thought he was a gardener. And I just think there’s so much there. You don’t want to try to extrapolate too much, but this divine gardener shows up who is tending to this creation that he loves, that he’s bound to. And it gives us meaning and purpose in him, like you said. And I’m so grateful for that because we do start in Genesis, and often, we don’t even start in Genesis 1, we start in Genesis 3 with the fall, right? And then, that becomes the overall or at least the starting point for how people present the gospel, instead of original belonging and the purpose of, meaning of, creation. As we look through this text, Andrew — and there is so much here, so it’s hard to pick and choose what to talk about — but I do, I did notice we know that Paul frequently talks about being “in Christ”, but it’s rare that we find the phrasing “Christ in you”, which we see in verse 27. Can you tell us more about this hope of glory? [00:33:43] Andrew: Yeah. Anthony: Great. Andrew: So, I think to understand this verse, we need to understand it with reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. And Jesus Christ sends the Spirit into the world to be someone who represents the reality of Jesus Christ. And the Spirit dwells within us, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ dwells within us. And so, yeah, when the Spirit is working our lives, there’s ways in which Christ really is within us. Christ is present in the life of believers, and as we grow in faith, he becomes more and more someone who’s at the very heart of the Christians’ lives, animating and empowering us to reflect Christ in the world. So, by being transformed by the Spirit within, so that Christ is really present within us, our lives can then come to reflect the reality of Jesus Christ and the world. Our lives become mobilized. They become witnesses to this mysterious glory of Jesus Christ, who’s revealed to the world. And so, what’s really significant here is that Christ is revealed through us. Not just us by ourselves, but us through the empowering work of the Holy Spirit. And that means that we have a key responsibility in this world to be people that are constantly bearing witness to that reality. And without us, without the church doing this work, there’s so many people that don’t get the opportunity to receive this reality in their lives, because God doesn’t do things without us. He might take priority, but God is very much creating a ministry that includes us and is using us to, to yeah, to spread the good news. [00:35:28] Anthony: Yeah. And then, part of that is this reconciliation that we have in Christ. He was reconciling all things to the Father, and I remind us of what Karl Barth wrote, “Christ accomplishes the reality of our reconciliation with God, not its possibility.” And I think that’s an important word, and in the way that the gospel, quote unquote, is often presented to the masses. All right. We have one pericope left in the month, so let’s transition to it. It is Colossians 2:6–15. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 12 in Ordinary Time, July 27. Andrew, we’d be grateful if you’d read it. [00:36:15] Andrew: Yes, of course. As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, continue to walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 Watch out that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fullness in him, who is the head of every ruler and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by the removal of the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses, 14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it. [00:37:35] Anthony: Hallelujah. Yeah. I’ve heard a few preachers say philosophy is to be avoided because it’s humanistic. And verse 8 is often referenced to make their point. And I wanted to ask this question of you because you’ve written a book that, which in part looks at the theological vision of Soren Kierkegaard, who was a philosopher. So, can theology and philosophy work together for good? And if so, how so? Andrew: Yeah. Great. So, one of the key things that we need to note in this passage is that the problem isn’t simply philosophy, it is philosophy defined according to human tradition, … Anthony: There you go. [00:38:11] Andrew: … according to the elemental principles of this world. Okay? So, philosophy is only a problem when its approach is grounded in a kind of naturalistic or an atheistic vision of the world, okay? … when it tries to become a its own form of theology or a theology, if you like … when it sees itself as a kind of human wisdom apart from God as being fundamental to think how we think about things. But when philosophy is simply functioning as a discipline, that in which we think hard about the meaning of concepts, about how these concepts relate to another and how we can use these concepts to make sense of the world, to become part of our arguments to wrestle with moral questions, metaphysical questions, a whole host of other things that are part of the theological task, then it does not need to be a problem whatsoever. Indeed, my experience has been that I’ve been able to, yeah, really grow in my theology by engaging not only, I think, with Christian philosophers, but secular philosophers as well. But what is really important is that we always recognize the fundamental role that theology plays in helping us to think about the philosophical task. So, philosophy always needs to be understood truly according to a theological framework. Okay, that means that when I’m doing, when I’m engaged in philosophy, I think that my approach to philosophy always needs to be a Christian approach. It always needs to, and therefore always needs to be theological in many respects. And so, I think this has been the case. If there’s ways in which Christian philosophy actually can be seen as a form of theology. I think there’s maybe more going on in theology when we’re engaging with questions in church history, when we’re engaging in biblical studies, and when we’re doing … there’s a lot going on when we’re engaged in the theological task. But I certainly think the one part of it can be the kind of work that we do with philosophy to develop our arguments, to understand the meaning of what we’re saying, yeah, in ways that can be more profound, really help us to be clear and more convincing about what we’re saying when we’re engaged in Christian theology. [00:40:34] Anthony: As you look across the landscape of philosophy, is there a stream of philosophy that concerns you the most, that is according to human tradition, that’s elemental, secular, atheological, as you said? Is there one that gives you more pause and concern than any other? [00:40:53] Andrew: It’s hard to just talk about a form of philosophy that is a particularly problematic. I think there’s ways in which different forms can have their own kinds of problems. I think in some ways, one of the approaches that concerns me, but I also think can be a very good thing, is certain approaches to say something like apologetics that suggests in various ways that in order for Christianity to be recognized to be true, we need to understand it in philosophical terms. Anthony: I love it. Andrew: There’s a real, there’s a real danger there that I think Christianity can become subject in certain approaches, and again, I definitely don’t want to generalize here, but there’s ways in which it can end up bending the knee, subjecting to authority that is primarily defined by human tradition, the elemental principles of this world. And theology is testifying to something much greater. So, it can’t be kind of constricted with the mechanism of the boxes of human tradition. And it’s a danger when we’re doing apologetics that we try to defend the nature of Christianity in ways that means Christianity ends up being conformed to a particular narrow view of human understanding, which can cause it to become much smaller than it actually is. [00:42:17] Anthony: It seems to me, Andrew, that in all things we have to have the highest possible Christology. Whether it’s philosophy, thinking about the way we live our lives, the way that we engage our neighbor ecclesiology, the way we think about the churches, it all comes back to Jesus Christ, doesn’t it? [00:42:33] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:34] Anthony: If we want to end up in the right place. As simple as that. [00:42:38] Andrew: Yeah. And it’s very simple. I think sometimes when we talk a lot about God, I definitely think we always have to talk about God, but God is, can be such a … God is transcendent. God is hidden. God is beyond what we’re able to grasp with our own understanding. God is invisible and so when we’re given an image of that invisible God, it gives us something to which we can tone our eyes, which gives us a clarity in the midst of the uncertainty, which I think can just give us a confidence about who God is in relationship to creation that we wouldn’t otherwise be able to find. [00:43:17] Anthony: So, if you’re proclaiming this text to your congregation now in this moment, 2025, especially considering the geopolitical moment of uncertainty, what are you going to herald? [00:43:31] Andrew: Yeah, I’m going to herald Jesus Christ. The reality to be … Anthony: There you go. Andrew: … but not just Jesus Christ. As I’ve said a few times, we need to recognize that there’s no knowing Jesus Christ without works having to be stirred up in the world, and that the way in which you relate to the risen and ascended Jesus Christ is through the power of the Holy Spirit. We also don’t want to neglect the Father, God the Father who is overall, that we need to not just have a Christology, but also have a trinitarian ontology such that we understand who Jesus Christ is as a revelation, not just of the Son, but of the triune God … Anthony: Yes. Andrew: … in and through whom God is working in the world to draw creation into the love that God is in himself, in God’s sovereignty, in these three persons, in this communion of three persons. And when we experience that reality, our lives can begin to correspond to the coherence that undergirds all things, that holds all things together. And when we encounter that transformative power in our lives, I really think that the ways in which the world is divided can be overcome, that we can be drawn together in a way that means that we won’t escape the tensions and the disagreements, but those will never overcome the ways in which we learn to love one another. And I think that’s something to which the church really needs to give priority at this moment of time and needs to be seen as something that’s bringing unity, like coherence to the world, that is trying to bring people together rather than tear them apart. And there will of course be times when the church has to offer a challenge. I think there’s a need now for it to be bearing witness to one who is going to unite us, bring us together, despite the ways in which society might divide us. I’d love to see the church being a bit clearer on this point. [00:45:37] Anthony: Do you have a moment where I can ask you one final theological question before we wrap up? Andrew: Yeah. Yes, of course. Anthony: … because you said something that really is interesting to me. It’s fascinating. I’ve often said that Christology is the tip of the spear of theology, because God has revealed himself in Jesus Christ. But you said something that’s really, I think, important to discuss. Is there a way for the church to focus so much on Jesus Christ in isolation, that it does any sort of detriment in terms of the way that we teach or think about Christian living where Jesus stands alone apart from the Father and the Spirit?  Is there anything that concerns you in that way? [00:46:22] Andrew: Yeah, we definitely don’t want to be doing Christology without a trinitarian theology. And there are so many dangers when we separate the two and neglect trinitarian theology. We can end up with a kind of view of Jesus Christ, as someone who is just an impressive philosopher, a teacher of wisdom who lived and died, and some people thought rose again 2,000 years ago. And then we miss out on the bigger picture. And so, we don’t want the church to just be a community that is following the philosophy of Jesus Christ. We’re following someone who is alive for us today and has continued to reveal God to the world as the one who’s the ground of our very existence, the very end for which, in which we find our fulfillment. And so, the danger with bracketing out the trinitarian theology is that we just end up with a much smaller Jesus, a nearly human Jesus. And when we go there, we miss out on the bigger picture. [00:47:29] Anthony: Yeah. And it’s a beautiful picture of the triune God — Father, Son, and Spirit. And I want to thank you for your time, Andrew. It’s been beautiful having this conversation with you. And friends, I want to leave you with this thought from Origen, one of the early church fathers. He said, “… for truly before Jesus, the scripture was water. But after Jesus, it has become wine for us.” So, as you drink in of holy scripture, may the Spirit mediate and may you be filled with the type of Spirit that leads you to intimacy with God. I want to thank our team that makes this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman. It’s such a joy to work with these people who make all of this come together. And Andrew, again, thank you for your wisdom and insights of scripture as revealed in Jesus Christ. And as our tradition, we’d love for you to say a word of prayer for us as we close. [00:48:26] Andrew: Yes. Oh, let’s pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you for creating us to be so much more than we could ever be in and of ourselves, to become far more than we could ever imagine ourselves to be on our own, but to be people that are called to be united with you, to be people transformed by your grace and called of your glorious purpose as it is disclosed and in the person of Jesus Christ. And Lord, we thank you for rescuing us from the darkness. And for drawing us into the kingdom of your beloved Son, not just as a reality to anticipate when you die, but to a reality that we can live into today to experience the reality of redemption, to experience the forgiveness of sins every day in this world, so that we might be a light that could communicate this joy, this glory to the world. And so, Lord, to do this, we just ask that you would send your Spirit to fill us with the knowledge of your will, to awaken us to wisdom and understanding, and by the power of your Holy Spirit, Lord, be strengthened for us to walk in a manner that is worthy of you, to bear fruit with every good work, to grow deeper in our knowledge of who you are, and through that to understand more faithfully who we are all as witnesses to you and, Lord, just be asked that you’d root us in the hope of your glory, that Christ would be within us, so that we could reveal Christ to the world. Draw us close to you, Lord, that we might faithfully proclaim your wisdom, your grace, and your love to the world that so desperately needs it. We ask all these things in Jesus’ name. Amen. Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!  The post Dr. Andrew Torrance—Year C Proper 9-12 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.