FRIED. The Burnout Podcast

In today's episode, I have a heartfelt conversation about an often overlooked aspect of burnout – its intersection with autism and neurodivergence. My guest, Paula Liub, a burnout coach for people who identify as neurodivergent, shares her personal journey of overcoming burnout as a neurodivergent individual, getting a late autism diagnosis and offers valuable insights into understanding and managing burnout within the neurodivergent community.Episode Highlights:Paula Liub shares her personal burnout story, which she describes as having three distinct stages. She recounts her journey from experiencing repetitive burnouts, recognizing the need for change, and finally discovering her autistic diagnosis as the missing piece that led to complete recovery and prevention of further burnout.Paula encourages listeners, especially those within the neurodivergent community, to embrace their sensitivities and needs. She highlights the importance of self-validation, trusting one's body and experiences, and prioritizing well-being without waiting for a formal diagnosis.Remember, your burnout recovery journey is valid and unique – prioritize your well-being and embrace your neurodivergent strengths.Connect with Paula Liub:https://www.paula-mindfulness.comhttps://www.instagram.com/paula.mindfulness/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paula-liub/Free meditation guide for people who don't like to meditate: https://tinyurl.com/mr3we3t6Connect with Cait:Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025

Certified Speaking Professional and renowned psychologist Owen Fitzpatrick discusses the concept of belief leadership and its impact on burnout recovery. He explores the victim and villain mindsets, encouraging listeners to adopt a hero mindset. The podcast also delves into the power of affirmations, identity, and the effectiveness of neurolinguistic programming in facilitating belief and behavior changes.

In this episode of Fried. The Burnout Podcast, I delve into the topic of differentiating between burnout and stress. I often encounter this question from you, my magic listeners, and others: whether it's at conferences, speaking gigs, or even in the Facebook group. Understanding the distinction between burnout and stress is crucial to address the issue effectively. So let's explore how to recognize and differentiate between these two conditions.Burnout is not simply an escalated form of stress but rather an end result of chronic, unresolved stress over extended periods. According to the World Health Organization, burnout is characterized by three key elements:Feelings of physical and emotional exhaustionCynicism and detachmentA lack of impact and productivityStress, on the other hand, is a natural response of the body to any challenge, be it environmental, emotional, or physical. It is a short-term reaction with a time-bound measure, meaning it arises and subsides, especially when the stress cycle is completed. One way to distinguish stress from burnout is by assessing recoverability. When experiencing stress, a few days of rest or a good night's sleep can often suffice to rejuvenate and return to a state of equilibrium. However, in the case of burnout, recovery becomes challenging. Even extended periods of rest may not alleviate the symptoms, making individuals feel stuck in a perpetual stress cycle. Burnout manifests in a host of physical and mental symptoms, such as headaches, digestive issues, explosive emotions, frequent colds and flus, anxiety, and depression. These symptoms persist and hinder one's ability to move forward. Addressing burnout requires understanding that it is not a quick fix. Unlike simple stress, which can be managed relatively swiftly, burnout recovery can take anywhere from 12 months to three years, and in some cases, even longer. Patience and consistent effort are vital during this process. Navigating burnout alone can be overwhelming. Seeking help from professionals specializing in burnout recovery can significantly speed up and ease the process. Burnout coaching and therapy can work hand in hand to provide comprehensive support. The key takeaway from this episode is that if you find yourself unable to recover from exhaustion and stress despite various attempts, it might be burnout rather than just stress. Recognizing the difference is crucial to implement the right strategies for recovery. Remember, seeking help from professionals can make a significant difference in your burnout recovery journey. You don't have to face it alone.Connect with Cait:Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025

In this episode, Jim Young, a burnout recovery coach, explores the topic of burnout in men and the importance of building intimate connections. He shares his personal journey of burnout and highlights the lack of resources specifically tailored to men's experiences. Jim emphasizes the need for deeper connections, not just in romantic relationships, but also in friendships and other areas of life. He delves into the societal expectations placed on men and the shame they often feel when they don't meet those expectations. Through vulnerability and breaking the shame barrier, Jim discusses how men can recover from burnout and cultivate a more fulfilling life.Show Notes:[00:16:57] Introduction to the topic of burnout in menJim shares his personal burnout journey and the lack of resources for men's experiencesThe unique challenges men face when it comes to burnout [00:17:38] Importance of creating intimate connectionsJim discusses the significance of developing deeper connections in various aspects of lifeHighlighting the value of friendship and rebuilding social connections during burnout recovery [00:18:58] Recognizing the role of intimacy in burnout recoveryJim reflects on his own recovery and identifies creating intimate connections as a key factorThe misconception of intimacy being solely focused on romantic relationships [00:19:25] Breaking the traditional male experienceChallenging the societal expectations for men to handle emotions alone and not ask for helpThe importance of breaking free from the shame associated with seeking support [00:23:13] Integration versus segmentationDiscussing the continuum of boundaries and the importance of finding balanceBreaking the pattern of building walls and opening gates to healthy connections [00:26:00] Overcoming shame and seeking supportAddressing the shame men feel regarding their provider role and societal expectationsThe transformative power of sharing vulnerability and breaking through shame [00:28:45] Introduction to Jim's group program for men dealing with burnoutJim announces the launch of the Expansive Success programFocusing on holistic success in different areas of life, including relationships, health, and purpose [00:31:56] The structure of the group programAn eight-week interactive course facilitated by JimWeekly meetings, curriculum, exercises, and facilitated conversations [00:35:00] The power of community and impactful changeRecognizing the ripple effect of personal growth on organizations and relationshipsBuilding new friendships, networks, and supports through group experiences[00:37:11] Going beyond expectationsThe significance of providing more than expected in coaching programsGuiding individuals towards their true needs and potential [00:40:00] Inclusivity and serving all peopleEmphasizing the goal of helping all individuals through the lens of serving menCreating safe and expansive spaces for everyoneJim Young's work focuses on addressing burnout in men by emphasizing the importance of building intimate connections and breaking the shame barrier. Through his group program, Expansive Success, he guides men in recovering from burnout and achieving holistic success in various areas of life. By fostering vulnerability, community, and personal growth, Jim aims to create spaces that benefit individuals of all genders. Resources:Jim’s Upcoming Mastermind:https://www.thecenteredcoach.com/expansive-successJim’s Book:https://www.thecenteredcoach.com/bookYNAB (You Need a Budget)https://ynab.comConnect with Cait:Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025

Dr. Mandy Lehto was a people pleaser for such a long period of time that she ended up completely disconnected from herself. She found herself snappy and irritable, consistently pushing herself harder and farther beyond the limits of what she could handle. After a scary moment collapsing while boxing, Dr. Lehto realized something was wrong that even the world’s strongest coffee would not be able to fix. Through her burnout recovery journey, Dr. Lehto identified 7 realistic phases of burnout which she uses to guide others through their own burnout recoveries.  As a perfectionist and people-pleaser, it is common to be so focused on external validation that you lose sight of what you actually want and need. Like most people, Dr. Lehto started off her burnout journey in phase 1, denial. It took fully collapsing and then developing an unfortunate face rash to finally admit to herself that there was a problem. She went into the triaging phase with the same perfectionist approach she used when facing anything, trying to be the absolute best at meditating and downing kale smoothies. She tried every method she could access for hacking her healing from cutting gluten to attending spiritual retreats until at last reaching the stage of reluctant surrender. It was not going to be possible to completely recover on her own, and she would need to allow others to help her. She accepted that it was finally time to release the false fire of that external validation and fuel herself from within, stepping into the chutes and ladders phase of experimentation to discover which parts of herself were real and which were performance. Lastly, she embraced the final stage that wholeness equals whole mess, acknowledging that it's okay to not be perfect.  Dr. Lehto’s seven burnout phases are deeply relatable for anyone experiencing burnout regardless of where they currently are in their recovery journey. If you struggle with people-pleasing and being your authentic self, consider approaching your healing through the lens of these seven phases. Quotes• “Being a people pleaser perfectionist, I wasn't connected to myself, to my own likes, dislikes, to my own needs, to my own wants, because it was always about external validation.” (15:09 | Dr. Lehto)• “There's a phrase by Cheryl Strayed, that acceptance is a small quiet room. And that's exactly what this phase felt like.” (20:24 | Dr. Lehto)• “Just because a system is one way in one place, that doesn't mean that it's that way in every other place.” (30:10 | Cait)• “I don't need to contort myself to be who I think I need to be so that other people will approve of me and validate me.” (40:19 | Dr. Lehto) LinksConnect with Dr. Mandy Lehto:www.mandylehto.comhttps://www.instagram.com/mandylehto/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/mandylehtopersonalbrandimage/ Connect with Cait:Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025 Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Mel Hopper Koppelman was so burned out that in spite of being longtime friends with host Cait Donovan, she did not immediately recognize her own connection with childhood trauma and burnout. Growing up labeled as a “gifted kid”, Mel developed blind spots regarding aspects of her neurological development that were lacking. As an adult, she developed complex chronic health issues. Because of her blind spots, it would be years before Mel realized the connection between her childhood experiences, her health issues, and burnout. Now, as the founder of Synthesis Health Lab, Mel helps other people who are struggling with chronic health issues to heal and live their best lives. While some conditions of burnout are environmental, others can be linked to neurological development, adverse childhood experiences, and genetic factors. For Mel, much of her burnout and chronic health issues ended up being linked to uneven neurological development. Through testing, Mel discovered that she retained primitive reflexes, typically not seen beyond one year of age, that influenced nervous system dysfunction. When nervous system dysregulation stems from delayed or uneven neurological development, the resulting burnout needs to be approached differently. The same techniques that work for burnout for someone with an evenly developed brain will not work the same way for someone whose neurological development differs. If you are struggling from complex, chronic health problems like fibromyalgia, gastrointestinal disorders, autoimmunity, or chronic fatigue, consider getting tested for retained primitive reflexes. Your nervous system may be dysregulated due to differences in your neurological development.  Quotes• “We might be having a difficult time understanding development because we are underdeveloped ourselves.” (8:06 | Cait)• “One of the things that goes along with certain types of developmental issues, like we see with a lot of neurodiversity, is a characteristic unevenness of skills.” (9:52 | Mel)• “Things can run in families that are not necessarily genetic.” (15:10 | Mel)• “When we have adverse childhood events…and development is not unfolding optimally, then those primitive reflexes, instead of getting integrated, which means that the brain matures and kind of stops them from being active,…those reflexes are still there.” (26:59 | Mel) LinksConnect with Mel Hopper Koppelman:https://essays.synthesishealth.co/https://www.instagram.com/synthesishealth.co/https://www.linkedin.com/in/melhopperkoppelman/https://synthesishealth.co/join-ushttps://www.drrobertmelillo.com/ Connect with Cait: Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025  Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm 

Coping mechanisms are something that you use every single day, probably without even realizing it. These coping mechanisms start to develop as soon as you are born, forming based on your relationship with your primary caregiver. Depending on how that relationship goes, you form one of four attachment styles, three of which can make you more prone to burnout later in life. In today’s #straightfromcait episode, host and burnout aficionado Cait Donovan explains what coping mechanisms are and how to tell whether your current coping mechanisms would be considered adaptive or maladaptive. Pretty much all coping mechanisms can be either adaptive or maladaptive depending on the intention behind them. Sometimes, even if a coping mechanism is not technically healthy, it may still be useful for your survival in the moment. When a coping mechanism is maladaptive, it means that while it may help you temporarily, it also has the potential for consequences that could be worse than the initial problem you were trying to solve. Examples of maladaptive coping mechanisms include rumination, substance abuse, self harm, daydreaming, hypervigilance, and disengagement. Adaptive coping mechanisms are those that are considered both helpful and healthy in the long run, such as emotion regulation, speaking with a therapist or a friend, and intentional forced distraction.  While healing from trauma and burnout, you will engage many coping mechanisms. In the same way that your burning out was not your fault, your default coping mechanisms are also not your fault. They were determined long before you had any say in what they were. Instead of demonizing behaviors that were helpful for you in the past for being maladaptive, look at how you can update them to be more healthy going forward and leave behind the ones that are no longer serving you.  Quotes• “A coping mechanism is an action or a behavior that you engage in when you need to overcome a difficulty.” (1:37-1:44 | Cait)• “The initial response of your primary caregiver to those needs that you are trying to convey is what guides how you will eventually long term create your particular style of coping.” (2:03-2:16 | Cait)• “Children who form secure attachments go through life with more self confidence, more resilience, and more ability to trust the people around them.” (2:39-2:49 | Cait)• “Most coping mechanisms can be adaptive or maladaptive depending on the intentionality with which they are used.” (12:00-12:06 | Cait)  Links https://positivepsychology.com/coping/https://positivepsychology.com/maladaptive-coping/ Connect with Cait: Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025  Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm 

Heather Hansen’s burnout, like unfortunately so many others, landed her in the hospital. Her stress levels had become so extreme due to her career as a defense attorney that Heather’s body responded with a severe allergic reaction. Afterward, Heather realized she needed to start advocating for herself with the same level of compassion, love, and loyalty that she had for her clients in the courtroom. Now, a Best-Selling author and speaker, Heather teaches others how to self-advocate through mastering the art of the ask and convincing their inner juries.  In a courtroom, both sides present the exact same evidence from different perspectives. It is up to the jury to consider that evidence and choose which side to support. The same is true for your inner jury. When you start looking for evidence of positive things about yourself, your inner jury will feel more confident about trusting you. This will make it easier for you to advocate for yourself. Give yourself permission to pursue what you want for now, knowing that it will change at some point. Once you know what it is you want, then it is time to ask for help or accommodations out loud and with delight. In order to ask effectively, you must speak with compassion, curiosity, and credibility. Approach your ask from the other person’s perspective instead of your own by asking what they want and speaking to it.  Recovering from burnout requires that you be able to ask for help when you need it. Self-advocacy can be particularly challenging for perfectionists, but it does not have to be. When you can ask for what you need from a place of compassion rather than resentment, you are much more likely to get a ‘yes’.  Quotes• “What I decided to do was to start advocating for myself the way that I advocated for my clients in the courtroom.” (5:02-5:09 | Heather)• “You need to know what you want. You need to ask for it out loud and with delight. And you need to master the ask.” (8:55-9:02 | Heather)• “You've got to give your inner jury a different story.” (11:23-11:11:25 | Heather)• “For those of us who got to where we thought we wanted to be, and then it wasn't the right place for us anymore…that's okay. It just means that you are meant for more.” (13:29-13:42 | Heather)• “If you are asking with resentment, you are very unlikely to get the things that you want.” (16:27-16:34 | Heather)• “In the courtroom, both sides have the same evidence. And both sides use the same evidence to prove different things. So you need to decide what story you want to support.” (19:10-19:21 | Heather)• “If you're struggling with advocating for yourself, make it about something else…Sometimes if you can externalize it, it makes it easier to start advocating.” (48:10-48:37 | Heather) LinksConnect with Heather Hansen:https://advocatetowin.com/https://www.instagram.com/anelegantwarrior/https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-hansen-84243512/ https://view.flodesk.com/pages/64710dde8533b6ba4f709de9 Connect with Cait: Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025  Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm  

Dex Randall’s burnout experience was a long time coming. He shares that as a child, right from the beginning, he was always afraid of everything. His parents’ behavior was unpredictable and he learned very quickly that it was not a good idea to trust any person ever. The coping mechanisms that Dex learned as protective measures throughout childhood followed into adulthood. Eventually, this came to a head when Dex entered into a job position where he was not in alignment with the founder and felt unable to do his job the way he wanted to. He explains that at that moment, he really felt like the stress was going to kill him. He quit his job on the spot and three weeks later experienced a heart attack that landed him in the ICU.  Dex’s experience with his burnout and heart attack led him to become a burnout coach specializing in male burnout. Even though he now is an accomplished burnout professional, it was a long journey to relearn and deconstruct the maladaptive coping mechanisms from childhood that had been so critical to his survival. Around 5 years ago, Dex was diagnosed with cPTSD, which is complex PTSD that results from long standing, repetitive trauma. This diagnosis helped Dex to reframe his burnout and understand that it was not his fault. Psychological safety is incredibly important, and it can be very hard to ask for help, especially if you have been conditioned not to trust people socially.  Men are typically less likely than women to seek help as they view it as a weakness, but there is nothing more courageous than asking for help. Burnout is not your fault, and you can recover from it. The energy to do so already resides inside you. You just have to seek out the love within your heart.  Quotes• “This thought went through my mind that the stress was at such a high level now that it was physically going to kill me.” (4:40-4:47 | Dex)• “Whatever we learn as a child as a coping mechanism is very hardwired in by the time we become an adult.” (16:25-16:30 | Dex)• “Complex PTSD is often a label given to people who, for example, were in the military where they've had repeated trauma in the military sense, but it's more often given to people who experience trauma they couldn't digest as children.” (18:51-19:08 | Dex)• “We really do need to do some work on psychological safety, because it really makes a big difference.” (23:05-23:10 | Dex)• “I think what men in burnout, the message that I would extend to them is that they are wonderful, well intentioned, big hearted human beings who are suffering intensely for reasons beyond their control.” (40:46-41:00 | Dex)• “I have to realize I'm a valuable and worthy human being before I'm going to do anything about the experiences of burnout.” (43:35-43:43 | Dex)  LinksConnect with Dex Randall:Website: https://dexrandall.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coachdexrandall/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/coachdexrandallConnect with Cait: Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025  Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm  

Even if you do not think you have experienced childhood trauma, there are many ways that childhood experiences can impact your ability to regulate your emotions. Adverse childhood experiences or ACEs include both events that happened to you like abuse or neglect and events that you simply witnessed. Trauma impacts child brain development at an epigenetic level, causing deficiencies in the part of the brain responsible for executive functioning and emotion regulation. In today’s #straightfromcait episode, host Cait Donovan discusses the link between ACEs and burnout.  Adverse childhood experiences impact the brain in a way that is very similar to the effects seen from long term stress. These experiences have a direct impact on the neurochemicals and hormones that are needed for regulating stress. Since your stress system cannot function the way it is supposed to, you are more prone to burnout. This further demonstrates how burnout is systemic and not the fault of the individual.  If you have a higher ACEs score, such as one that is at a 4 or above, you are more likely to have a higher level of emotional dysregulation. Any adverse events that happened in your childhood physically changed the way your brain developed and caused you to be more susceptible to burnout. Remember to be gentle with yourself, because burnout is not your fault and it may take longer for you to recover from stress than someone with a lower ACEs score.  Quotes • “You don't have to be the ‘direct victim’ of abuse or neglect for it to affect you and your physical and emotional and mental health later on in life.” (6:54-7:06 | Cait)• “I truly believe that if we spend more time helping families to live healthier with one another that is the way we eliminate burnout long-term. That's the way we really hashtag end burnout culture.” (8:21-8:35 | Cait) • “There are interruptions to proper brain development when you experience adverse childhood experiences. These changes in brain development are nearly the same ones as we see with long term chronic stress.” (9:10-9:30 | Cait)• “Adverse childhood experiences have various effects on the actual neurochemicals and hormones of your stress response and the structures that they attach to, and that interrupts your stress cycle somehow.” (15:32-15:50 | Cait)• “If your stress response system is not working the way that it's supposed to, you are going to be more likely to burn out.” (23:24-23:33 | Cait)• “Burnout is not your fault. You do deserve better.” (25:04-25:06 | Cait) Links  https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/03/02/387007941/take-the-ace-quiz-and-learn-what-it-does-and-doesnt-meanhttps://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/index.htmlhttps://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/aces/pdf/vs-1105-aces-H.pdf Supportive Research for a Correlation between ACEs and Burnout  Connect with Cait: Cait Donovan is a keynote speaker, author, and host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast, specializing in burnout, mis/match, and sustainable performance at work. She partners with corporate leaders, teams, and professional associations through keynotes, workshops, and leadership sessions that treat burnout as data, not failure, to help organizations reduce burnout without blame or shame and build healthier, high performing cultures.To bring Cait to your organization or event, book an inquiry call here: https://bit.ly/bookcaitLearn more about Cait’s speaking work: https://www.caitdonovan.com/speakingShort on time? Watch this 3-min video: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025  Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm