

Deviate
Rolf Potts
Rolf Potts veers off-topic in this unique series of conversations with experts, public figures, and intriguing people.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Mar 20, 2018 • 1h 32min
Unsane writer James Greer on the death of Cobain and birth of Gen X
“This is a thing that journalists do—they take a ‘two is a coincidence, three is a trend’ sort of thing and try to manufacture an idea out of it.” – James Greer
James Greer is a screenwriter, music critic, author, and former rock musician. He-wrote the screenplay for Steven Soderbergh’s film Unsane, which is set for release on March 23rd.
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and James discuss his early career as a music critic and Spin magazine (4:00); Generation X and James’ role in popularizing this demographic cohort (13:00); the Nirvana revolution and the band’s impact on music (25:00); the legend of with Kurt Cobain (39:00); James’ post-Spin life (54:00); and his transition into screenwriting and making movies with Steven Soderbergh (1:04:00).
Notable Links:
The Upside to All the Online Chatter About ‘Girls”, by Rolf Potts (article)
Proceeding With Caution, by David M. Gross and Sophronia Scott (article)
Greer’s 1991 Spin article about Perry Farrell and Generation X
Generation X: Tales for an Accelerated Culture, by Douglas Coupland (book)
Pretty in Pink: The Golden Age of Teenage Movies, by Jonathan Bernstein (book)
Generation X (demographic cohort)
Grunge speak (hoax)
Richard Linklater (director)
Slacker (film)
Janeane Garofalo (comedian)
Jim Rose Circus
Bro (subculture)
Max Keeble’s Big Move (film)
Just My Luck (film)
Lindsay Lohan (actress)
Jonathan Bernstein (screenwriter)
Steven Soderbergh (filmmaker)
Sex, Lies, and Videotape (film)
Sex, Lies, and Videotape Movie Edition (film journal and screenplay)
Raiders of the Lost Ark, by Steven Spielberg (remix version by Steven Soderbergh)
Unsane (film)
Red (digital camera company)
Day-and-Date Release Strategy
John Barth (author)
Music-related links:
Spin (magazine)
Bob Guccione, Jr. (Spin publisher)
Rolling Stone (magazine)
Nirvana (band)
Lollapalooza (music festival)
Perry Farrell (musician)
Slanted and Enchanted (music album by Pavement)
Matador Records (indie music label)
Sub Pop (indie music label)
Nils Bernstein (music publicist)
Post-punk (music genre)
R.E.M. (band)
Hüsker Dü (band)
The Replacements (band)
Pixies (band)
Fugazi (band)
Soundgarden (band)
Sonic Youth (band)
Billy Idol (musician)
U2 (band)
Eddie Vedder (band)
Kurt Cobain (musician)
Janis Joplin (musician)
Jimi Hendrix (musician)
Jim Morrison (musician)
Ian Curtis (musician)
Mia Zapata (musician)
Kim Deal (musician)
Courtney Love (musician)
Henry Rollins (musician)
Guided by Voices (band)
Dead Moon (band)
Death Hags (band)
MTV Buzz Bin
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Mar 13, 2018 • 21min
The Epic One-Against-Five Foul-Out Basketball Game of 1964
In the spirit of March Madness, Rolf brings us special episode of Deviate from the American heartland, where he tells us a basketball story about one of those “never before seen” sports moments.
Notable Links:
Kipp, Kansas (town)
Aurora, Kansas (town)
Schilling Air Force Base
Donald J. Sobol (writer)
Encyclopedia Brown, by Donald J. Sobol (book series)
Encyclopedia Brown’s Second Record Book of Weird and Wonderful Facts
1964 NCAA University Division Basketball Tournament
Gypsum, Kansas (town)
Assaria, Kansas (town)
Southeast of Saline School
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Mar 6, 2018 • 1h 1min
Adventure writer Tim Cahill on fear, and what it’s like to be dead for ten minutes
“I think fear comes out of ignorance.” – Tim Cahill
Tim Cahill is a journalist, author, and pioneering travel writer.
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss hooking the reader from the first line of a story (2:15); the start of Tim’s career and his early experiences in journalism (8:50); travel writing in the 1970s, and the evolution of travel writing (16:30); his relationship with risk and fear (24:00); his brush with death in the Grand Canyon (36:45); and how his connection with walking and travel has changed as he has aged (51:00).
For more from Tim, check out his Rolling Stone and Outside archives, or his 2004 Q&A with Rolf.
Mentioned writing by Tim Cahill
In the Valley of the Shadow of Death: Guyana After the Jonestown Massacre, by Tim Cahill (article)
The Shame of Escobilla, by Tim Cahill (article)
My Drowning (and other Inconveniences), by Tim Cahill (article)
Buried Dreams: Inside the Mind of John Wayne Gacy, by Tim Cahill (book)
Pecked to Death by Ducks, by Tim Cahill (book)
A Wolverine is Eating my Leg, by Tim Cahill (book)
Hold the Enlightenment, by Tim Cahill (book)
Jaguars Ripped my Flesh, by Tim Cahill (book)
Pass the Butterworms, by Tim Cahill (book)
Road Fever, by Tim Cahill (book)
Other notable links
Outside Magazine (publication)
Gonzo Journalism (style of journalism)
In medias res (narrative technique)
Walt Whitman (poet and essayist)
Ernest Hemingway (author)
Emily Dickinson (poet)
Mark Twain (author)
Bill Cardoso (journalist)
Queen Charlotte Islands (i.e., Haida Gwaii)
Lava Falls (Grand Canyon rapids)
Paleface v. Redskin (American literary dichotomy)
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Feb 27, 2018 • 1h 4min
Filmmaker Rod Pocowatchit on Native American zombie movies and DIY film
“I tell people that all the time. Just do it. Just dive in and figure it out. And you’re going to make mistakes and you’re going to fail. But I learned incredible things from that first experience…just from doing that first film.” – Rod Pocowatchit
”Rodrick Pocowatchit (@rawd) is a journalist, screenwriter, actor, and film director.
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rod discuss Native Americans in popular culture and movies (3:10); Native American identity (13:40); creating art within your means (23:00); Rod’s entrance into the film industry, and his distribution strategies (30:00); and pow-wow and Native American culture (42:00).
“Other” short clip from Rodrick Pocowatchit on Vimeo.
Feature films by Rodrick Pocowatchit:
Dancing on the Moon
Sleepdancer
The Dead Can’t Dance
Red Hand
Notable Links
Shaun of the Dead (film)
Little Big Man (film)
Chief Dan George (actor)
Smoke Signals (film)
Chris Eyre (film director)
King Kung Fu (film)
Guy Pocowatchit (actor)
George A. Romero (filmmaker)
Robert Rodriguez (filmmaker)
Richard Linklater (filmmaker)
Sundance Institute (film program)
Native Program (film program)
Rebel Without a Crew, by Robert Rodriguez (book)
Sherman Alexie (writer)
Pow wow (Native American cultural gathering)
Grass Dance (style of Native American dance)
Fancy Dance (style of Native American dance)
Comanche language
LA Skins Fest (film festival)
American Indian LA Film and TV Awards
Reporting in Indian Country “bingo card,” from the Native American Journalists Association.
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Feb 20, 2018 • 51min
Baseball writer Rany Jazayerli on fandom, and growing up Muslim in America
“When you are more focused with how other people are practicing their faith than how you are practicing it yourself, you have gone down the wrong path.” – Rany Jazayerli
Rany Jazayerli (@jazayerli) is a Chicago-area dermatologist, sportswriter, and co-founder of the Baseball Prospectus website. In 1998 he developed the statistical concept of Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP), which evaluates the impact of high pitch-counts in baseball.
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks to Rany about growing up the son of Syrian immigrant parents in Wichita (3:40); Rany’s move to Saudi Arabia at a young age, and his relationship with Islam, Syria, and America (14:30); the renowned 19th century Arab religious and military leader Abd el-Kader (19:00); perceptions and realities surrounding the Islamic faith and its place in American society (27:00); and Rany’s predictions for the upcoming baseball season (47:30).
For more recent articles from Rany, check out his Ringer article archive.
Notable Links
A plea for tolerance, by Rany Jazayerli (ESPN article)
Does This Suit Make Me Look Terrorist To You? (This American Life segment)
Rany on the Royals (baseball blog)
K.C. Masterpiece, by Rany Jazayerli (Grantland article)
The Sweet Superstition of Rooting for the Royals, by Rolf Potts (Atlantic essay)
Kansas City Star oral history of the 2014 AL Wild Card game
David Schoenfield (ESPN editor)
Obama’s Biggest Mistake, by Rany Jazayerli (Ringer article)
Abd el-Kader and the Massacre of Damascus, by Rany Jazayerli (essay)
Commander of the Faithful, by John W. Kiser (book)
Emir Abd el-Kader (religious and military leader)
Elkader, Iowa (town named for Abd el-Kader)
Al-Assad regime (Syrian ruling family)
Sunni Islam (denomination of Islam)
Wahhabism (Islamic doctrine and religious movement)
Nation of Islam (African-American religious movement)
Dave Chappelle (American Muslim comedian)
Lupe Fiasco (American Muslim rapper)
Anti-Catholicism in the United States
Islamophobia in the United States
Mao II, by Don Delillo (novel)
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Feb 13, 2018 • 1h
Sophfronia Scott on God, mid-life career change, and defining a generation
“You have to understand your own particular journey — and what you need as a writer, and who you are, and what you want out of the publishing process — because that’s what is going to help you make decisions.” – Sophfronia Scott
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf speaks with Sophfronia Scott about her working-class Ohio upbringing, and the background behind her name (2:40); her beginnings at TIME Magazine and her groundbreaking article on Generation X (13:00); her mid-life career change and commitment to a career as an author (30:00); her spiritual journey (40:00); and dealing with her son’s experience as a student at Sandy Hook Elementary (49:00).
Sophfronia Scott (@Sophfronia) is a writer and author who has debuted three books in the past year, including Unforgivable Love, which retells the tale of Dangerous Liasons in 1940s Harlem; This Child of Faith, a spiritual memoir that touches on the school shooting at Sandy Hook; and Love’s Long Line, a collection of essays.
For more information on Sophfronia, including a full list of her publications, check out https://sophfronia.com/
Notable Links
Proceeding with Caution by Sophfronia Scott and David M. Gross (TIME article)
Stephen Koepp, TIME editor
Generation X Reconsidered (TIME, 1997)
Great Migration (African-American demographic shift)
Lorain, Ohio (Sophfronia’s hometown)
Thirtysomething (television series)
Girls (television series)
Annie Dillard (author)
Toni Morrison (novelist)
Robert Vivian (writer)
VeggieTales (children’s TV show)
Top Ten Reasons to be Episcopalian, by Robin Williams
Frederick Buechner (writer and theologian)
Dietrich Bonhoeffer (theologian)
Peter J. Gomes (preacher and theologian)
Rob Bell (author and pastor)
Thomas Merton (writer and theologian)
Confessions of a Guilty Bystander, by Thomas Merton (book)
The Journals of Thomas Merton (book series)
The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton (book)
Surprised by Hope, by N.T. Wright (book)
Rumi (poet)
Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting
How Faith Helped My Son After He Survived Sandy Hook, by Sophfronia Scott
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Feb 6, 2018 • 58min
The weird and complicated history of America’s national anthem
“The magic of history is that the simple, received wisdom we have turns out to be just one part of the story, and we discover a lot about ourselves when we go deeper into it.” – Mark Clague
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf deep-dives into the Star Spangled Banner, covering topics including the origins and historical backdrop for the writing of Star Spangled Banner (9:20); the irony of using a British melody for the United States national anthem, and the “lost stanzas” of the original poem (23:12); the song’s complicated history, including specific criticisms (35:00); and the evolution of the song in tandem with our national identity (44:00).
This week’s expert, Mark Clague (@usmusicscholar), is a musicology professor at the University of Michigan. He has researched all forms of music in the United States; his recent projects focus on the United States national anthem.
For more information on Mark, please check out his Star Spangled Music website, his Star Spangled Songbook, his Poets & Patriots music compilation, and his podcast.
Notable Links
Francis Scott Key (lawyer and poet)
War of 1812
Fort McHenry
Woodstock (festival)
To Anacreon in Heaven (song)
Broadside ballad (music type)
Gentlemen’s Club (traditional British social club)
Anacreontic Society (music-themed gentlemen’s club)
Jimi Hendrix (musician)
Alexander Hamilton (Founding Father)
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (composer)
Joseph Haydn (composer)
When the Warrior Returns by Francis Scott Key (poem)
Oh Say, Do You Hear (“Abolitionist Star Spangled Banner”)
Corps of Colonial Marines
America (Neil Diamond song)
God Bless the USA (Lee Greenwood song)
Performances and adaptations of The Star-Spangled Banner
Mentioned renditions of the Star Spangled Banner
Marvin Gaye rendition of Star Spangled Banner (at the 1983 NBA All-Star Game)
“The All-Star Anthem,” from Grantland
Jimi Hendrix rendition of Star Spangled Banner (at the Woodstock Festival)
“When Jimi Hendrix Protested the National Anthem on a National Stage,” From SPIN
José Feliciano rendition of Star Spangled Banner (at 1968 MLB World Series)
“A Polarizing Performance by Jose Feliciano in 1968,” from the New York Times
Whitney Houston rendition of Star Spangled Banner (at 1991 Super Bowl)
“When Whitney Hit the High Note,” from ESPN
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Jan 30, 2018 • 49min
What it’s like to be a Latino police officer in America
“I want to be as clear as I can be on this. Mental health is one of the largest problems we have in society today.” – James Espinoza
Lt. James Espinoza is a 25-year veteran of the Wichita Police Department. His father, John Espinoza, who came from a large Mexican-American family in Hutchinson, Kansas, was also a career police officer. James and Rolf attended Wichita North High School together in the 1980s.
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf speaks with James about his decision to become a police officer (2:30); community policing (11:05); being a rookie on the police force (18:15); dangers involved with the job (25:30) bad police officers versus bad administrative policies (30:00); changes in policing and technology (34:40); mental health (39:15); and what is misunderstood and underappreciated about police officers (43:15).
Notable Links
Broken windows theory
Rodney King
Community policing
PR24 nightstick
Police body cameras
Fleeing felon rule
Police crisis intervention team (CIT)
Wichita Massacre (the Carr Brothers)
BTK Strangler (serial killer)
USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal
Stephen Schneider case
COPS (TV show)
The Wire (TV show)
Baltimore Rising (HBO documentary)
“Smoke & Ride” by Cadence, featuring Ace Trill & Twansac
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Jan 30, 2018 • 33min
What it’s like to be a black police officer in America
“We have a lot of conflict in this world because we’re too busy putting ourselves into groups.” – Bear Manuel
Jerry “Bear” Manuel is a detective assigned to the gang unit in the Wichita Police Department. Prior to his work as a police officer, Bear was a teacher at Head Start, which provides comprehensive early childhood education services to low-income children. He attended junior high and high school with Rolf in the 1980s, and they competed together on the track team.
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf speaks with Bear about growing up poor in Wichita (5:10); his decision to become a police officer (10:20); the day-to-day of being a detective and the importance of community policing (14:30); the importance of having a police department that reflects the community you serve (19:30); and the use of deadly force (25:00).
Notable Links
Head Start (Federal early-childhood education program)
Wichita Child Development Center (hospital day care program)
Rainbows United (community resource center for special-needs children)
“Police officers’ lives are at risk because of a false media narrative,” by Kevin Lawrence, Dallas Morning News
The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Jan 23, 2018 • 1h 47min
A Shadow History of Rock Music in the 1980s
“I think in every era of music you can find stuff like this — and sometimes you’ll find that it’s superior to the music that really was making it big commercially.” –Michael Carmody
In this episode of Deviate Rolf delves into a musical mystery — tracing the fate of ten rock and pop albums (found in a thrift store record bin) that evoke the quintessential look and sound of 1980s music, even though — for whatever reason — they never made it big back in the day.
Joining Rolf in this musical investigation is Jedd Beaudoin (@JeddBeaudoin), who hosts the syndicated music show “Strange Currency,” and Michael Carmody (@Carmody68), a musician, record collector, and donut shop entrepreneur.
Album art and show notes for each 1980s mystery album are listed below, in chronological order, by time-code.
Sue Saad and the Next (Planet/Elektra), 1980
[4:05 – 10:56]
Featured song: “I I, Me Me”
Links:
1980 Grammy Awards winners
1980 Billboard Year-End Hot 100
Sue Saad on The Hustle with Jon Lamoreaux
Joan Jett (musician)
John Cougar (musician)
Sue Saad and the Next, “Young Girl“
Sue Saad and the Next, “Gimme Love Gimme Pain“
Rush, “Spirit of the Radio“
Led Zeppelin, “D’Yer Maker“
S·P·Y·S (EMI America), 1982
[10:56 – 20:25]
Featured song: “She Can’t Wait”
Links:
1982 Grammy Awards winners
1982 Billboard Year-End Hot 100
Al Greenwood (Foreigner and S·P·Y·S keyboardist)
Mick Jones (Foreigner guitarist)
Spooky Tooth (band)
SAGA, “On the Loose“
Rainbow (band)
The Clocks, “Nobody’s Fool“
The Human League (synth-pop band)
Warren Cuccurullo (Missing Persons guitarist)
Cinemax (pay-cable TV network)
The Breaks (RCA), 1983
[20:25 – 27:55]
Featured song: “She Wants You”
Links:
1983 Grammy Awards winners
1983 Billboard Year-End Hot 100
Vini Poncia (record producer)
Scandal (band)
Patty Smyth (singer-songwriter)
Harry Nilsson (singer-songwriter)
Stevie Nicks (singer-songwriter)
The Pretenders (band)
Blue Angel (band)
Village Sound, “Hey Jack (Don’t Hijack My Plane)“
Fury (New York Music Company), 1985
[27:55 – 34:15]
Featured song: “In Her Arms”
Links:
1985 Grammy Awards winners
1985 Billboard Year-End Hot 100
Felix Cavaliere (producer)
Young Rascals (band)
Kenny Loggins (singer-songwriter)
Yamaha DX7 (synthesizer)
Former Fury fan club, current location on West 57th Street
La Blanc Brothers (post-Fury wedding band)
Surgin’, “When Midnight Comes” (EMI), 1985
[34:15 – 46:00]
Featured song: “Shot Through the Heart”
Links:
Jack Ponti (musician)
Jon Bon Jovi (singer-songwriter)
Bon Jovi, “Runaway“
Kevin DuBrow (heavy metal singer)
Blizzard of Ozz (Ozzy Osbourne album)
Master of Puppets (Metallica album)
Reign in Blood (Slayer album)
Cinderella (glam metal band)
Stryper (Christian metal band)
Judas Priest (metal band)
Iron Maiden (metal band)
Rough Cutt (Warner), 1985
[46:00 – 55:25]
Featured song: “Piece of My Heart”
Links:
Mickey Ratt (rock band)
Chris Hager (guitarist)
Jake E. Lee (guitarist)
Ronnie James Dio (musician)
Ted Templeman (Van Halen producer)
Paul Shortino (musician)
Shortino as Duke Fame, in This is Spinal Tap
MetalShop (radio show)
Rough Cutt, “Never Gonna Die“
The Choirboys (band)
Y&T (band)
Rough Cutt (current band website)
Stone Fury, “Let Them Talk” (MCA), 1986
[55:25 – 1:06:00]
Featured song: “Too Late”
Links:
1986 Grammy Awards winners
1986 Billboard Year-End Hot 100
Rutger Hauer (Dutch actor)
Limhal (singer for Kajagoogoo)
Lenny Wolf (vocalist)
Kingdom Come (band)
Bruce Gowdy (guitarist)
World Trade (prog rock band)
Elf (band)
Stone Fury, “Stay“
Glass Tiger (band)
Le Mans (Columbia), 1986
[1:06:00 – 1:14:10]
Featured song: “Chain Around Your Heart”
Links:
Derek Frigo (guitarist)
Peter Marrino (singer)
Mike Varney (founder of Shrapnel Records)
Yngwie Malmsteen (guitarist)
Guitar Player (magazine)
Paul Gilbert (guitarist)
Charles Bradley (singer)
Journey (band)
Arnel Pineda (singer)
Steve Perry (singer)
Envy, “Ain’t It a Sin” (ATCO/Atlantic), 1987
[1:14:10 – 1:25:36]
Featured song: “Ain’t It a Sin”
Links:
1987 Grammy Awards winners
1987 Billboard Year-End Hot 100
Dee Snyder (singer-songwriter)
Gina Stile (musician)
Vixen (band)
Heart (band)
Lita Ford (guitarist)
Fiona (singer)
When in Rome, “The Promise“
Headbangers Ball (MTV program)
Nirvana, “Smells Like Teen Spirit“
Hüsker Dü (band)
Leatherwolf, “Street Ready” (Island), 1989
[1:25:36 – 1:30:45]
Featured song: “Street Ready”
Links:
1989 Grammy Awards winners
1989 Billboard Year-End Hot 100
Leatherwolf (current band website)
Armored Saint (band)
Final comments
[1:30:45 – 1:45:20]
Links:
Sammy Hagar (musician)
Matthew Wilder, “Break My Stride“
Soundscan (sales tracking system)
Captain Beyond (album)
Trouble Boys: The True Story of the Replacements, by Bob Mehr
Lester Bangs (rock critic)
Rodney Bingenheimer (radio personality)
John Peel (radio presenter)
Circus (rock magazine)
Hit Parader (rock magazine)
Creem (rock magazine)
The Archies, “Sugar Sugar“
Sammy Johns, “Chevy Van“
Computer World (Kraftwerk album)
Nothing’s Shocking (Jane’s Addiction album)
The Joshua Tree (U2 album)
Anton Corbijn (photographer)
This episode was sponsored by the Paris Writing Workshop, an intensive one-month course in the artistic heart of Europe.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.


