WB-40

On this week’s show we are joined by Julia Jones to talk about how the New Normal might need a new type of leadership.

This week we are joined by Defence and Security specialist Alex Woolfson to talk about the ways and means of contemporary warfare.

On this week’s show we are joined by Clare Johnson who talks about how she inspires children and adults to follow careers into Cyber Security.

On this week’s show we are joined by Dr Alaina Szlachta who helps us explore perspectives on learning. You can find Alaina on LinkedIn here https://www.linkedin.com/in/alaina-szlachta-phd-5a9ba594/ and her business can be found at https://www.bydesigndevelopmentsolutions.com/

On this week’s show we are joined by Nigel Walsh to explore the worlds of insurance and technology. You can find Nigel on Twitter at https://twitter.com/nigelwalsh, on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelwalsh/ and on his podcast at https://ii.11fs.com/.

On this week’s show it’s a welcome return for Tracy Keogh from Grow Remote who talks about how the pandemic has influenced their work, and how organisations need to think Remote First.

On this week’s show we have a return visitor in Amanda Brock from Open UK. We talk to Amanda about open business models, a research project on the UK Open Technology market, and COP26.You can find our more about Open UK’s work at https://openuk.uk/ This week’s automated transcription: Intro Chris: Welcome back everybody. After a two week break to wake breach. I think I nearly said that two week break that we had for a bank holiday and well, well, the two weeks it’s been it’s, it’s gone past it, a flash. Matt, what do you think Matt: it has gone past in a flash with a tropical levels of rain, but it seems that spring is now here and it’s more. So that’s good. Cause it is may and it should be. So I’m relieved about that. And two weeks chugging away work starts going around to contracting with suppliers all that kind of thing. I’m trying to buy a car. What interesting world, a lot of car dealerships are they’re in this weird hybrid state where. Some of that. I mean the whole charade of the negotiation, when they go off into the back room to be able to talk to their manager, to see if they can be able to get a deal and all that Gubbins seems to have been knocked on the head by the fact that for a year they’ve had to sell without being at a user show showroom. But they’re in this really weird thing now where they, they still obviously got a margin to make. So they start with a very low price and then tried to sell even more crap that you don’t need with You know, ceramic coatings for paint and all sorts of nonsense that go into it. But of course, the main thing they’re trying to do, we’re not looking to buy a new car at the second, add one is try to set the credit. And if you’re saying actually Ashley we’ve got savings, we want to get a pet. They’re not into it. They don’t care because obviously there’s no money to be made whatsoever. If they’re not selling you some P P P deal or whatever, they call them their personal, personal lease deal. So that’s been an eye-opening experience and Yeah, I’m not sure I want to do it again for another seven years. I haven’t bought one yet either. So there we go. Chris: Yes, it’s it is it’s an interesting game. Car sales, no doubt about it. Couldn’t collect. I bought a car, a click by click and collect the other week. So I just, I just bought it and then went to fetch it. I didn’t even go look at it. I knew what I wanted and it worked out well, actually. Matt: Yeah. The other interesting thing though, is actually talking cars at like a year or two old. It seems like the established auto manufacturers have now realized the power of being able to, this is going to be interesting for the conversations later, but being able to sell software upgrades at premium on secondhand stocks. So you haven’t got a reversing camera. We can install that that’d be 650 quid. When you know, the camera itself is going to be like, what three quid? And it’ll all be modular in at the bank. It’ll take five minutes to do it. And it’s all just about enabling the software, but. In that you kind of go to the dealership to better get that down Chris: as a whole, but there’s a whole bunch of Tesla’s stuff going on there. Anyway. Anyway, we can get into some of this. We’ve got a guest this week who is somebody that we had a year ago just about, and it’s been a whole year. Amanda Centura must hear I’m under Brock is here. How are you? Amanda: I’m really well. I bought a car last summer too, and they were trying to tell me the second hand cars were going up in value for the first time ever in the pandemic. Well, they sold me an upgraded SD card. That’s what I’m supposed to still enrolled in the last year. Well, I, didn’t not Chris: how’s the last couple of weeks been for you, Amanda. Has anything been excising and happened this last week? Anything thundering down the track. Amanda: Constant. We are just so busy at open UK, and there’s so many different things going on, lots and lots of people involved and all bringing their own exciting ideas and skills into the organization. So in the last couple of weeks, we’ve announced, I think probably just over a couple of weeks ago, our chief sustainability officer, a guy called Christian Purina joined us and we’re working on cop 26. We had an entrepreneur in residence, join us and we’re working on a phone just for him. And we have been very busy creating our kids count for a second time. Chris: Fantastic. Well, we’ll hear a lot more about that. No doubt in the minutes to Matt: come. And how has the the life in the most mental it’s been for you over the last two weeks, Chris: Mr. Weston? Well, I w similarly it was, it’s been fairly Torrential in terms of rain, although on this was it yesterday, Sunday, and I woke up and. I looked outside and there’s some were shining and I went outside and it was not it’s cold. And I dashed out with a mighty roar through my breakfast in the garden for the first time. Well, actually not quite the first time that this year we had it, we had a weird sunny day, a few weeks ago, but it was yeah, it was a bit of a release because it’s been a bit gray miserable. So yes, yes, it was yesterday. It was nice. And, and really it’s been a. It’s been that kind of, you know, a bit of a continuation of the whole year, really in terms of work, but good. In many ways we know that the customer signed up, so I’ve got somebody to onboard and got, and hopefully another one that’s coming on. So that’s all good. Right? So ultimate renewal and things like that. And then meeting new people, doing slightly different things. It’s it’s good. Matt: Do you have any view to actually going to places. Cases outside of the UK? Chris: No, no, not yet. No. I think organizations all over Europe are still wary about their people going places and, or meeting people from other places. Right. I think whilst we’re working from home, they’re kind of assuming that, and then not getting near that part, part of that is not being exposed to like. Suppliers and things like that, it might turn up. So I think, I think it’s going to change, but I think it’ll change gradually and I’d be surprised if in, so, I mean, the IDC is one of those kind of international visitors where people travel around quite, quite a lot. But if you think about what we do, a lot of what we do is around events. So obviously a lot of the events are, if they’re starting to give you back in personally, it’s, in-country rather than internationally. And a lot of our sponsors in terms of events and that our customers, in terms of our vendor research, that they don’t want people to travel yet. So we could have an event, but we wouldn’t have a speaker. You know, we wouldn’t have a sponsor. So it’s all a bit it’s all very much in a band at the moment, but I would imagine that. You know, if we can have a good summer in Western Europe, you know, and, and things to down a bit then maybe to origin this and where we might start to see like the thawing of that. Matt: Presumably there’s quite a bit of lead time on organizing an actual physical in-person event anyway, more for being able to get people to commit to going to it and everything Chris: else. Yeah. I mean, we, in terms of PR you know, proper events, you know, the big things like our summit that we have in October, that’s lots online and it was always going to be online because. We start organizing that in February, January. And you would, there was no way that we could say, Oh, let’s, let’s hedge our bets and make it physical. I know organizations who have done that and they’ve had to keep moving data back and things because they desperately want to do it physically, but it just doesn’t work out. And for us, it just made sense to say, look, let’s just, let’s just assume it’s going to be virtual. And and then. The in country stuff, the kind of, you know, like the dinners and things like that. That’s a little bit easy to organize. It’s a little bit shorter notice and therefore those will definitely start up. It’s just a matter of whether somebody like me goes out to to sit there and take my variants of concern with me. Matt: And are you looking at in-person stuff yet? Amanda? So Amanda: we are. And as you know, from our pre-call, I’m sort of so excited about the idea of seeing people face to face. I can hardly contain myself to be quite honest. We’re looking at cop 26, first two weeks of November, and we’re being told that UK Gover working on the basis that is an in person event. Unless something dramatically changes and we’ll be notified of that as, and when, so we have an open source and sustainability day that we will hopefully host other organizations at. And we have a submission sitting with the cabinet office that we’re waiting for approval. That’s actually quite exciting. This week, we’ve submitted to build the data center of the future, not to actually build it, but to build a blueprint with a consortium of different businesses. But we, and for a penny in, for a pound. So we submitted for the IMAX cinema. So if we get it, we get to go and make a movie and I’ve never made a movie. So that would be kind of exciting. Matt: Absolutely. And a very big movie, if it’s going to be screened at the Amanda: data center. Yeah. We’ve actually got a friend who is a producer. Who’s going to help us with this. So it’s not. Quite as much the blind leading the blind as that might sound that’d be, yeah, that’d be really exciting. So for us cop 26, potentially it also coincides with our awards, which would mean we would have some hybrid element to it. Although we’ve planned that as additional event. Matt: It’s going to be interesting how quickly people want to go back to events as much as the ability to better organize them as well. I think there’s going to be varying levels of some people extremely keen, the other people that are going to be quite reticent to, to, well, what’s the Amanda: hugging stuff. So I I’ve been on calls all day and I just saw something go across my phone about hugging is hugging official. No, as Boris said, hug. Matt: People are to use their discretion as to whether they wish to be able to hug or not. Yeah. No, it’s, it’s up to families and friends to be able to make decisions for themselves as to whether they wish to go. Amanda: No, strangers. I Matt: take it well. No, I think that was always the case. You know, kind of legal kind of way, but who knows? So anyway, before we get into this sort of minefield let’s press on with the show. We’re going to talk about a whole series of things is been driven by open UK and in the last 12 months ago, Ford as well. So I think we should crack on with it. Main interview Main Interview Matt: One of the tools that we use in the what I grandiosely called production process of WB 40 is a piece of open source software that has been around for quite some time. Now nine, 20 years, I think, called audacity and or Udacity is a sound editor. And it’s. Being used by all sorts of people used by professionals, lots of features within it, very, very much open source. And then a few weeks ago there was an announcement that a company was acquiring it. And I think it’s a really interesting starting point for conversations about some of the things that you’re looking at at the moment, Amanda, because I know that business models for open technologies one of your areas of focus and. That from somebody who doesn’t really embed themselves into the board of open completely day to day, like the way you do that feels a bit confusing because how can open source software be acquired? What’s going on there? Can we unpack Amanda: that a little bit? Yeah. I’m not terribly familiar with the Udacity. I know the product and our voiceover lady. She uses a law. So, I don’t quite know what they’re structuring Wars, but I assume it’s a commercial sponsor or a company which some high revenue generates on the back of a dusty that’s been sold and the audacity will be the project that they lead. If it’s a community project. And, you know, I, I’m jumping to an assumption immediately that it’s a community project, but one of the things we’d be looking at recently, a law. Is how people’s understanding of open source very much comes from the way they’ve experienced it. So for some of us, we joined big corporate collaborations, like a Lennox foundation or an OpenStack open infrastructure is that no is open-end for, and that experience of being part of a big corporate creating effectively a de facto standard and saving money and hopefully building better software. Is one iteration of open source. Another is people creating a project and building a business on the back of it? Like a Hashi Corp, perhaps? Yeah, no dusty I’m guessing. And then you have something totally different where you have developers scratching and H’s Lynise to real estate and creating something like Linux and building a massive community without a business on the back of it. But with a foundation and over 15,000 people. Have contributed. So you’ve got all these different sort of nuanced slants, but all of them are about developing software, not really about developing business and what we then see separately is how people have built sometimes successful and sometimes not so successful businesses around there. It must have a software and it sounds to me like a dusty have built a successful business if they’ve sold. Matt: So w are there, are there sort of typical types of revenue generation from. Yeah, you had to codify Amanda: so well, it’s a topic inequality, but as a chap called Matt as let, who, you might have come across it four or five one, and he produced a report back in 2008, which was probably the first business model review for open source. And he set out the, you know, half dozen or so different business models. And I would say they haven’t changed very much. What we’ve got now is slightly different flavors of them. But I think for straightforward open-source based businesses what’s changed most is probably get hub or get, or get lab and gets a language. Or it’s not even a language as a tool. I think Lynise wrote in 2009, if I’m right. Which means that that whole chef, that whole change is about 12 years old. And when I’m talking about change, what I mean is that we’ve seen. Open source move. So when I started work at canonical in 2008, we were constantly marketing it, selling it, persuading people that were safety use talking to procurement teams, talking to lawyers, and that sort of got bypassed by get hub. So what happens now is folk go and take the software. Take it into the business, use it, kick the tires, know that they want it. And then they go back to the business associated with that software as inbound. Marketing’s an entirely different approach. They know they want it, they know they want services around it. And they’re coming to you asking for those rather than you pushing it. So you see the issue that the problem of marketing open-source has kind of disappeared. And it also has an advantage though, where it can scale in a way that surprise. She just can’t compete with. Now, if it’s done well, and if it’s done right. And I think you have to have that in by marketing focus and what you also see, if you look enough at the different founders talking about it, is that the businesses which have had a single product struggle much more. So we’ve seen a Lastic shift this year from an open source business to, I still have some open, but moving some of its products proprietary and it’s pretty much a single product company. Someone like Mongo, who’s been through the same, very similar, whereas companies that have multiproduct or which have evolved their support and service offering to almost support their competing products. They’re the ones that do well. So you have to have that as well to, to really seem to thrive. And then the mold is what you’d expect, you know, support is subscription, that kind of stuff. Matt: It was to get hub itself. Of course, is another organization that has gone through the acquisition path and is now owned by Amanda: to Microsoft. Yeah. It was a fairly sizeable sale acquisition. However you view it. Biggest, I was red, hot 34 billion. I mean, I think it’s still the biggest type transaction in history, Matt: so there’s definitely money to be made in this world. Yeah. Amanda: If you work on it, it definitely. Matt: So you’re in the process of doing kind of state of the open market. That’s the right term for it in the UK. And you’ve got a series of three phased. Reports are going out the first of which has just been published March, March. Okay. So a couple of months ago can you tell us a bit more about that project and what you’re trying to be Amanda: able to explore through it? Yeah, I think I was speaking to Jennifer Barth at It’s me and media who have been the company who’ve supported us in creating this report back in January. And I I’ve sort of been toying with doing something along those lines for a while. The European commission had been working on a report for a couple of years, you know, huge Fastly expansive report. And I kind of felt that with Brexit, we needed to do something and talking to Jennifer, I really understood that we definitely needed to, because I sort of taught myself into actually. We are the fifth biggest contributor to the cloud native foundation to cloud native in the world. When I say we, I mean the UK and I realized as I was sort of knocking the numbers around and talking about it, that actually we were the biggest contributor and the biggest by number of developers across Europe as well. And in a very typically British, we just went, you know, we sort of. Probably quietly acknowledged it to herself, but didn’t like to mention it to anybody else. And I think that is something that’s come out of Brexit is that we’re no longer part of the commission’s work on open source or the report. And really, we needed to flag both to business and to government, just the scale of open in the UK and that we. Of secretly being a center of excellence building over many years in this space. And maybe we need to get some acknowledgement for that. Not so much for a Pat on the back, but to make sure that we’re educating kids in the right way for the future so that we build future generations of it and leverage that success and that we help businesses in that space do well. I think, no, Chris: no. I was going to ask you a question on, on that basis, given that, you know, it’s a year since we spoke last and. And given that that is, you know, it’s a, it’s a fact, we’ve got a good culture of open source contribution and, and thinking in the UK, what what advantage does that give us then in terms of, you know, given, given the whole Brexit thing and how we manage our. Our business and our software development and the way we look at tech in this country and in the future, does that give us that advantage? Do you think in terms of our culture or in terms of the way that the tech community works in this country, Amanda: I’d like to hope so. And I think that it’s a process of evolution where we are, we’re one of the biggest countries in this space, anywhere in the globe, right. In terms of. However, you’re going to measure lines, contribution numbers of individual developers that you can identify. But if you look at the countries where compared against it’s like China, India, the us. So we’re obviously nothing like the size. So if you were to look at it in a sort of per capita basis, and we haven’t looked at that yet, it’s something I’ve been thinking about. Actually, we have a huge tradition of open in the UK, which lens does having skills and areas where the shortage is in, right. They can’t find enough developers and cloud and an awful lot of the cloud software is open source. So there’s lots of space for us to evolve this and I hope, and I think generate more business and not just business. I think my thinking has shifted a bit in the last year, and it’s not just about getting the businesses that are in the UK and the people in those it’s the business OVO. And so there are a huge number of particularly young people working across open source who are working for international companies who are working for a known UK parent companies, but also for companies that are maybe non-traditional tech companies. As we’ve seen this digital transformation shift. And of course, if you talk to anybody about recruiting, developers is hard because every business wants them now. And I think. Universally, you will get the same response that particularly the younger developers develop using open source methodologies and practices, and that’s what they want to do. Microsoft explain that as one of the reasons that they shifted to open, you just can’t hire young developers or the good ones if you don’t do it. So I think by building those skills here and leveraging what we’ve already got, we should be making the UK more and more competitive in the tech space. Matt: I hope. Hmm. Do you think that is that shift being driven by the change in things like cloud delivery of software so that where the value is, it’s no longer about Selling licenses because the software isn’t the thing that actually is, is where revenue can be made. You get revenue by getting people to subscribe to the availability of the service, to having software as a service or, or whatever else, or is it, do you think there’s something else going on in terms of some sort of cultural shift? Amanda: I think we’ve been in this position for a long time culturally, and it hasn’t been acknowledged because it hasn’t been obvious as part of the EU. Why mentioned that the UK is the biggest of the EU. So when you look at it, you’ve got the UK than Germany and then way behind France, there were the European commission’s data that they were using for the report. They had 490,000 developers as the figure they were using in Europe. And they reduced that to 260,000 after Brexit. Now they said they’re being conservative. But even if it’s 200, that’s almost half of the developers working in Europe. I’m guessing some of it is language-based. And when I look round, and this is something that pleases me, I don’t know what anybody else thinks about it. But when I looked round the folk who are working in this space and the folk who engage with Oprah UK, not only are there huge numbers of young people, but they’re from all over the world. They’re based in the UK, which is great, but they’re from all over. And I don’t know if they’re attracted here because of that particular skill set or, you know exactly why they’re here. But it means that we’ve got a really diverse community and it’s interesting and it’s a good thing. Matt: Mm. Do you think, yeah. Do you think if you think about technology management within you know, not technology organizations, do you think the mindset has caught up there yet? Amanda: What do you mean by technology management? So Matt: people who are CIO CTOs, but in organizations that aren’t tech focused, who aren’t tech centered organizations. Amanda: I say quite a lot that I think what’s happened is we’ve gone through a digital transformation. I think companies have been in shock and they’ve learned that they’ve gone. Two software designed businesses, and they’re just getting their heads around that. And what they don’t actually realize is they’re open source. And I know even now you are last people. So we have a questionnaire that would be working on this, going to be sent out next week to business and industry phase two of our report phase one established. What we had with the existing marketplace. So looking at existing reports we did literature review. We established what that meant economically to the UK and for the UK, that was up to 41.3 billion in GDP per annum, coming from opensource. I think that’s hugely conservative is about 20% of the digital economy. I suspect that if we were to do the figures, right, just based on that methodology, we’d double that and it’d be about 40%. So. Moving on from that. What do we do? Next phase two is about looking at business and industry and understanding what the adoption is like. So we’re going out with this questionnaire next week. We start our survey on Monday. We are focusing on about eight different sectors trying to gather data. And we ask, do you use opensource? But even when the answer is no with Ann, go through a list of different software and packages saying, do you use any of the following? Because we suspect people will not really understand or have recognized or thought through that they’re using it. And then interestingly, one of the economists has pushed us to look at what they’ve stopped using or reduced their use of. And it’s kind of something I wouldn’t have thought about, but it’s an interesting sort of counterbalance to it. What are your adults and what are you letting go. I was going to say, then phase three is sort of a sweeper upper having established that. Can we find a new ways of looking at how you value the outputs? So what output value in GDP is actually being generated. And if you think about something like public cloud, vast majority of it’s open source, can you imagine how much must be generated from that? Let’s be huge. Matt: Hmm, I guess the other part of this is as we get services that are consumed. And so for small organizations in my own organization, the bulk of what we are using now is software as a service. Quite a lot of it comes from Microsoft. So I’ve got no idea how much open-source is involved, how much open technology to Amanda: involve. They’re the biggest contributor in the world, but lines of quote, according to get Harper, right? So they use massive open source. So they may well be filling you with open source, open goodness that you getting without knowing it. Matt: But I mean, the point is that Ashley is as a technology manager’s views shifts to delivery of business value. If you don’t have some size enough to actually be doing the development yourselves, don’t run infrastructure yourselves. Increasingly it’s an abstract question that isn’t actually that important because you know, the revenue model for, or the cost model is based around subscriptions for services, not like Amanda: right. But it is important that as much as your subscription for service. It’s based on the software that’s there. And a lot of that is open-source and you see an old stuff going on with elastic and whatever else with the cloud companies being accused of strip mining. Chris: So given that this is, you know, given this is the case and we have this strength in the UK and we have what would probably turn out as a Biff significant contribution from open source. What is the role to government? Amanda is, is, is the government’s role to promote or to encourage or to educate, or is it, should it just stay out that way? What are you trying to, what are you trying to, yeah, Amanda: I don’t think it will stay out the way. So I think it is It has a dual role. One part of it is as a consumer and creator and its own business, its day-to-day business of technology. And I think as a population where effectively we’re paying for the code, they’re using. And that they’re creating, we should want, what’s created for us to be open and shareable and scalable and reuse and not be paying for proprietary code. That’s not needed unless it’s needed. I’m not saying every piece has to be open. And then on the other side of it, we have the, the policy piece. The UK government has been working on a data and digital strategy for some time now. The devolved nations are also working on theirs. I think Oliver Darden came out January, February with 10 principles. None of those were open source. And one of the reasons that I wanted this report to happen was to demonstrate to government just how important openness to us and the money that it’s generating for the country, but also the value that it brings in the code itself. And hopefully have them understand that through. I wouldn’t exactly say spoon-feeding, but putting it in one place for them to try and get open principles brought in and the importance of open brought into that strategy and policy. So I think the rule is an escapable. They’ve actually been really good. So DCMS came along, we did some lunches. We actually start our own, me and my social events. We actually sat round, honestly, an eat a meal together. We shipped people their lunch and then talked about the rapport and DCMS turned up at all three of our lunches. You know, they’ve really engaged well, and they’ve been really good, so grateful to them for that. Matt: The cop 26 happening towards the end of the year that you mentioned in the intro where do you see the role of open in that whole agenda around the climate? Amanda: It’s interesting because sustainability is a really broad thing and it’s not just a buy also carbon neutral carbon, negative net, zero, wherever we’re going with that, that that’s all important, but it’s more than just that. And to be sustainable. One of the things that really impacts is making it open. If you look at the sustainable development goals and digital principles that the UN work on the open source principles fit so well into that. And I think they really set hand in hand for a while. I was on a chaired, an advisory group for the UN for their innovation labs. And they were looking constantly at what they built, what they created being open source, because then you could scale it across member States, particularly in the pure member States, they could pick it up and reuse and not reuse and recycle is right at the heart of sustainability as well as diversity. And I guess just the, the open nature of it. It’s inevitable that it works with sustainability or promote sustainability. So we hope to bring various projects. Some of them which are very focused on things like net zero, but some of them may be focusing on some of the broader sustainability issues as well to cope. I don’t know if you’ve seen anything about coal, but the whole of Glasgow is planned to be this amazing conference and to the whole city. And when we, we actually, we applied to the cabinet office for the IMAX cinema, which will be great fun, but we have a space in a fringe event, in a marquee right next to the main event. And again, this fringe events across the city. So if this goes ahead, it will be one almighty event. Be a bit of a shock after no events for some, right. All those people in one place. Exactly. Matt: Yeah, no, no, absolutely. No, certainly not for strangers with the, if you think about some of the, sort of, some of the key players within the, the challenges for net zero or whatever. But how do industries like energy as an industry or aviation or agriculture? Are those industries which have got thriving open. Community within the moment, Amanda: funnily enough, that you’re picking industries that we’ve been talking to. So we doing, doing an event with some energy companies and OEF jam in June, where we’re working to open up a dataset to help them do that. On the software side, Linux foundation has an open energy project that we’re a member of. And they’ve been working with energy companies since 2018, trying to build more software that things like monitoring. And, you know, there are certain. Almost de facto standards that you can create by collaborating across the software there. So it was really interesting and agriculture came up recently as a space that needs more work done in that way, particularly in opening up the data. So the double pronged approach to it as well. Matt: I see. I mean, one that’s close to my professional heart at the moment is the construction industry, which Free flow of data between different elements of the construction, then management of buildings. Amanda: I think about that any major infrastructure project, even just knowing traffic data and moving things around and managing those flows. There’s so many different aspects to it. Matt: Yeah, and it feels, I mean, it’s just say particularly with it’s an errand, Chris, that scenario, you know, reasonably well from your days in synthesis management work is that there are things like BIM building information management, but I, I’m not seeing a huge amount of evidence that actually data flows particularly well across organizations or it, or indeed different. Elements of the supply chain within those organizations, Amanda: a couple of things there. So if you look at a lot of the database software, now there’s so much open source in that, right? This, a lot of these companies, even the ones that are not obviously open source the backend is so I think we’ll see more and more open around the database infrastructure, but then when you look at the, the data itself, go back to something like open banking. Forsberg method forced by regulation and what we’re now seeing as other regulators wondering how they do that too. You know, how do we make our sector open up? How do we facilitate this? And I think for the energy sector and many of the others, sustainability will actually be a factor that pushes that. Matt: And do you think it will take regulation for that to happen? Amanda: I don’t actually, and there’s a couple of spaces where I don’t think regulation will be needed where I could be wrong. And that’s one of them. I actually think the regulators will see what’s happened with open banking and they will go ahead and do it without the regulation. I know that in Australia, they followed what the UK had done on the open banking space and did it without regulation. I was told by people involved that they thought Australia had done a better job, but then the, when the people running it, I think it must be the regulator, went to government and asked for a law because they had 90% engagement and they wants to force the last 10%. But I think they also having some freedom and scoping and creasing it rather than being driven by regulation. Maybe better. Chris: Reduce it and I’m in oil and gas. For example, the, there are, there are pooling of geo spatial data and geo graphical data to say, okay, here we go. We are. Pooling our resources of understanding where the oil is and how you might get to it. But simply because they’ve realized that they’d just, if you know how the oil industry works, it goes from feast to famine. And when it’s in the farming stage, as you’re pretty much isn’t husband, for some time, they can’t afford to do it unless they pull the resources and they realized that that ecosystem. Play is the only way to do it. So there’s an industry that has done it on its own the term, but Amanda: one of the problems with that kind of initiative and this is where you get me being the ex lawyer is the, to open up data Lake that you have to work out what contractually you can and can’t do. And the non-disclosure clauses and requirements cause huge problems. And I have. Talk to me for a few times about whether we could create a universal clause that was accepted, like a model clause that we could apply to say that you both parties agree, whatever the contracts might have said that we agree just to share this data. And nobody’s in breach by doing that. And avoid lawyers or kill me, but avoid spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on legal reviews to make modifications to contracts. When all you want to do is open up the data and you both want to do it to allow that for that specific purpose. And I do think there could be a lot of value increasing that sort of infrastructure. Chris: Yeah, that’s true. Excellent. Yeah. I mean there’s, if there’s, if there’s Amanda: that I do 25 years, that’s enough for anybody. Matt: So alongside the work with the the series of reports and with carp, you’ve also managed to squeeze in writing and editing a book. Amanda: Do we have to talk about that? That was it. It was a huge mistake. I’m sure the book will be great. I I’m fine. I know because I’ve read 20 people’s work. I know that the book is great, but edit 24 chapters of a book was more than I realized in terms of work. And if there hadn’t been a pandemic, it wouldn’t be finished. Matt: But it is presumably more about open. Oh Amanda: yes. Yeah. The open source law policy and practice, it will be second edition of a text that one of my old professors created with an assistant notice. There were two of them and I thought I’ll take that on and I’ll make it happen because. 10 years since the last edition it’s time, there was a new one and the Oxford university press. So patted me in the back and sent me on my way, probably thinking she’ll never complete that. And then I, thanks to Michelle leaners at NL Matt. He helped me find sponsorship from the beach foundation. So it’s actually open access. So it will all be worthwhile effectively. We’ve created a tertiary education curriculum for all aspects of open beyond the actual coding. And it’s a gift, you know, take it, you use it, give it to your students, give it to communities, whatever. I’ll just pick that out to see it published Matt: one of Chris: the labors of Hercules complete. Amanda: Absolutely. Matt: So we might’ve said. Second or third stages of the the report frame it’s going to be available. When, Amanda: so phase two is going out as a survey on the 17th of May. Anybody listening to this, we’d be so grateful to you for completing the survey or passing it to people, you know, across any sort of business sectors from transport to professional services to retail. And we are then going to publish the outputs on the 7th of July. And then we’ll be publishing phase three very early in October. Matt: Fantastic. We’ll put details of the of open UK where you can find details of that on the website@wdfortypodcast.com. Chris: Yeah. So just before we finish, let’s just quickly touch on the fact that you’ve got another brilliant summer holiday thing for kids coming Amanda: up. We day, we’ve got a couple of things coming up. We just launched our awards last Friday, which are open uk.uk, but slash awards. And we have eight categories and those will be being an Einstein cult 26, along with the winners of our kids’ competition and the sort of four runner to the kids competition as the summer camp. And this year we have 10 fun episodes based on the open-source definition. No wonder you’re both looking at me like that, but genuinely they’re really fun. And it’s taken a lot of work to make them fun. We have a very amazing young woman who is in her first year at Cambridge, who has stepped into the role of creative director having taught the course last summer. So we have a 19 year old who intimidates me, who has done an amazing job. It’s just absolutely amazing job on the the digital skill side. And I’ve been collaborating with her and Pamela Ball, the teacher. So I should say her name, Lorena hall, absolutely amazing. A woman. She’s our creative director and she Pamela and I’ve been building the content and we are halfway through the course that will be easy. And the course available in July and we are. About to finalize an announcer, another glove kit giveaway. So another year of free mini gloves. Chris: Fantastic. As somebody who’s a kids made the last year’s glove. And I had a good fun time doing it. I’m sure it would be really, really cool. Good. Amanda: I didn’t know you’d done that. I probably did at the time. I forgot. And that’s, that’s great Chris: to hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it was, it was really good. And and as you say, you know, it’s, it’s It’s something to do with the summer holidays and it teaches kids about, about something that will be useful to them. And I’m looking forward to seeing the educational and entertaining open-source model content because that’s a challenge. Amanda: Yeah, no, it has been a chat. When we had one Sunday morning, we were all sitting around and trying to work out how to explain forking to 11 year olds, you know? You’ll see it when you get it. Chris: Well, I’m looking forward to that. Outro Outro Matt: Fabulous. That’s more or less it for another show. Thank you, Amanda, for coming to join us again. What’s the week ahead looking like for you, Amanda: I’m obviously working on the survey, so that’s most of my week ahead, but I think I’m going to a restaurant in central London. Well to the street site table, like a restaurant, but that that’s good enough for me at the weekend. Matt: Everything is open with you. Isn’t it. That’s all your petrol station. Fabulous. And Chris, Chris wants the the next seven days got in store for you. Chris: Well, that’s an interest it’s in question because I have, I’ve got my diary is full of things that I noticed that I looked at my diary for this week as one doesn’t I’m Monday, just to see what, what, what a wait. And actually the it’s quite, it’s quite full. But it’s a lot of what I would call admini stuff. So it’s not, not nothing earth shattering. And I’m just looking forward really to getting through the week. Cause it’s last week was a Shortly. It wasn’t it. We had bank holiday. So I always feel that the first full week after a bank holiday is something of a, you know, it’s a trial of strength because I’ve had a long weekend and a short weekend. I need to get myself back so five to eight weeks. So that, that’s what I’m looking forward to. I’m just getting, looking forward to get through it. But with sanity intact, Amanda: you mean the end of the week is what you’re looking forward to this week. Chris: Yes, essentially. Matt: That’s fair enough. I’ve got a presentation I’m doing tomorrow for an event that’s being organized by prerogative, which is a consulting firm based in Wales. So I’m going to be talking about how investing in technology is a little bit like buying a new car. And so bring my current. Life into whatever it is that I have. You realize Chris: you realize that that is essentially the Swiss Toni. Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It’s there now. I mean, the basic idea is it, it starts with the premise that when people say investing in technology will save us money. It’s a bit like saying buying a car will be cheaper than walking. And that’s the start point. And that actually is the takeaway for the whole thing. And I’m going to start with what it is that you need to take away from the presentation. So there would be 40 distances. You’ve got it there for free. There you go. And other than that yeah, pretty clean. As long as we had. I I found last week, really hard work, and it felt like there was five days work in four days and quite looking forward to having five day to do five days work, it’s going to be much easier. But there we go. Thank you again, Amanda. It was great to have you back. Thank you for listening. We we’ll be back next week. Next week we are going to be rejoined. By another guest who’s been away from us for quite some time. But coming back, Tracy Keogh from a grow remote in Ireland. Now that’s an organization surely whose time has come in the last 12 months. So we were talking about how a grow remote has developed over the last few years. And what I guess the post pandemic world looks like for fostering remote communities of workers, working for organizations away from big offices. That’d be interesting.

On this week’s show we are joined by poet Mr Gee who helps us explore the world of words, and the advantages of crossing disciplines. You can see his most recent performance for the ODI here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7p2kJX3nTE

On this week’s podcast we speak with IDC CIO whisperer Marc Dowd about how the role has developed, where it is now, and where it might be heading.

On this week’s show we are joined by Claire Selby who talks about her project with Kingston University students Not My Beautiful House, and combining work and experience into higher education. You can find out more – Links : https://www.spacehive.com/spaceforkingston Twitter : https://twitter.com/NMBH_KUSInstagram : https://www.instagram.com/notmybeautifulhousekingston/ Studio KT1 : https://www.studiokt1.com/KUS : https://www.kingstonstudents.net/creative-meanwhile This week’s automated transcript… Intro Matt: We are back. This week’s show is brought to you in grayscale, in memoriam. Good to Christopher. We are two weeks since the last show. Have you been enjoying yourself? Did you eat copious amounts of chocolate? Have you found anything that has changed your view of the world? Chris: Well, that’s a very good question. I don’t think I’ve eaten. Well, I did eat a fair amount. I talked a lot in one day that some chocolate came into the house and the kids didn’t want to eat it. So of course, that had a bit and then edit all. And then I felt ill for about two days afterwards. So I’m not doing that again. I think, you know, as you get older, your constitution becomes less capable of digesting and enormous amounts of pretty much anything. And I’m guessing I’m a little bit frightened about the idea of going back to the pub. I need a catch to five pints app to get myself back into some sort of. Shipe, I’m actually go, I’m looking forward to it. Now. I’m going to the test match in June. So I’ve got tickets, got a bunch of, I got tickets. We’re going to the test match, but of course it has to match means that you have to sit there drinking all day, watching, watching the cricket. So I do need to get myself into shape before then, but you know, it’d be nice to get there and all of the, all of the signs are good. So I’m looking forward to that, ah, has for the last couple of weeks, No. I mean, it’s been I had I had a week off work, which I’ve just finished, which was nice just to do other things. It was nice to get out and do a few jobs and Potter about, and it seems to me that people are getting back to some sort of normality regarding their work lives or that they’re either getting back to normality or they’ve, they’ve resigned themselves to the misery that there’s going to everlasting or whatever. But yeah, it’s it’s okay. And Oh, yes. And of course, yes, we’ve had the national the idea that readable websites are undignified or disrespectful. So this today I sent all of my emails using the wooden dings font in order to make them respectfully unreadable. Matt: Oh, wait paintings. There are winging things. Yeah. There’s a blast from fonts past. That’s wonderful. God bless you, sir. And this week joining us is is Claire Selby. Ha how have you been fairing over the last couple of weeks, Claire? Gosh, Claire: well time is a bit of a construct at the moment isn’t there. I’m trying to struggle back. Easter was a thing. I didn’t get an egg. There was no eggs left in Sainsbury’s, so I didn’t eat enough chocolate. But I have, you know, slowly return to normality by doing a few things that I hadn’t done before, while swimming this morning, a bit foraging. And I actually got out of London and stood on a beach. So I’m quite happy with those three things. Matt: Well, let’s get going. Whereabouts was the beach, Claire: Assets coast. So tolls, Bree and Molden. Matt: Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, well, I drive past it quite often as I head up to see my parents in Suffolk, which is where I went onto a beach at good Friday, possibly the coldest experience I’ve had on a beach in a very long time, because the East, East coast wind now whipped through you. You know, actually your beaches are a familiar place for you though, aren’t they? But you tend to do them in urban areas rather than the seaside. Yeah. Claire: I mean, I grew up by the sea, so I kind of feel like I have to see the horizon at some point, but I guess you’re referring to my muddler King which I haven’t done for a while because during lockdown they kind of advise against it because in case you get into difficulty on the foreshore you might need to be rescued and that might take away valuable time from someone else that’s more in need. So I haven’t really done any for quite a while. But yeah, generally anything that isn’t staring at a computer is of prime value now. So I’ve been learning to ride a bike for the first time, since I was about 14, which has been equally terrifying and also incredibly rewarding. So quite enjoying that at the moment that that might have overtaken the mud logging actually at the moment. Matt: Oh, wow. Okay. Because the other ones I know about is cheese. Claire: Yeah. Guilty is a big thing. Yeah. Worked at Christmas with Neal’s yard for the last three years. And then I did a quick stint before I started this job sort of in the cheese arches. So looking after the turning of, and the maturing of. Everything from your Stilton right through to your goats, cheeses and your barn by God. So I know quite a lot about cheese. If ever comes up in conversation, Matt: I was with some friends at the weekend and we were walking around Paddington basin and there’s a a new barge opening up in Patterson. Basin called the cheese barge, which I’m very excited about, but I shared a photo of this with some of the people on the WB 40 signal brief, and somebody immediately pops up with they’ve missed a trick there. She would have called it the bout from Marsh, which it isn’t that Chris: I’m just disappointed. You don’t remember. It was me that said that my Matt: colleague. No. That’s all right. I remember now. Cause yeah, it’s, that’s the, all the, all the good stuff you just did it for on the signal channel, rather than that, she waiting for the podcast. Chris: The podcast is a secondary channel for my, my I put, I think foraging though foraging is great. And especially, I think, I think the, the, the there’s a good combination of foraging and going to the beach pre. 12th of of April, right? Because there’s nowhere I was open. So you, if you go to the beach and you’d have to forage for your sustenance anyway, so it’s, it’s a, it’s a good combination. Claire: I’m just, I’m just sort of gathering all these skills, you know, for this Apple app, apocalyptic, future apocalypse. That’s probably coming at some point, so yeah, I can find you. Well, I mean, the, the guy that does the foraging walks was really interested to find out where mitten crabs are. So. That is valuable knowledge to him. But probably no one else Chris: can brush their brains in perform so much. What’s your week been like Matt: it’s fortnight? Yeah, traveled out to London for the first time in quite a while, went up to see mum and dad in Suffolk, which is very nice or very socially distance or very cold. And then we went for a walk with. My sister-in-law was in dogs in the country and actually bizarre there’s. I said patent in basin yesterday had the delight of meeting a friend at his, in St. John’s wood in North North of the center of London, but pretty damn central. And then just walking around central ish, London, the sort of periphery of London for a few hours. And it was nice to be surrounded by big, ugly, tall buildings and, you know, the big roads and the. The stuff that makes you realize that you’re not in the countryside in any way, shape or form. So that was quite good, fun. And everything’s sort of slowly creaking back into some sort of movement. So be fascinating to see their places at Paddington basin, which has grown enormously in the last 10 years and create big sleek skyscrapers all over the place combined with. Presumably extremely tiny, but very expensive apartments and how I hope the next few years. But we will see in those sorts of places, which you’ve got all of the cultural appeal to me, of somebody like Canary Wharf, I none whatsoever are actually quite an accessible, have terrible facilities. And yeah, whether they, they survive or not, but we got to also walk down the the canal around the back, or actually, you know, in the middle of the the zoo in regions park, just at the time when they were feeding the hygienists, which the cage of the hyenas backs onto the canal. Oh, it was fabulous to see these. I mean, there’s one of the scariest beasts in the world, the hygiene, and they just love like half a dozen. Rabbits over the fence. Let the high end has go completely crazy in the in the next door cage as they smelled the dead rabbit, but couldn’t get it to it and then let them through. And they’re bounded through to found one full time for it and ripped it apart. My kids were delighted to bear to see blood guts and rapid brain all over the. Yeah, so that was a little bit and then in between that doing some work, you know, so I’m carrying on carrying on. It’s all. Good. So let’s get on with this week’s show. We are going to be talking on the day in which we’re recording. The the UK started to do its next stage of the opening up of lockdown with non-essential stores. Starting to open and pop garden, starting to open and the heavens opening with snow. And we’re going to talk with Claire a bit more about some experiments that she’s up to with what might happen in the future of the high street. Main Interview Matt: A few years ago now you started a role working at Kingston university, just down the road from where I live which was something a bit different really in terms of helping people in a creative space in education, but rather than standing in front of them. Blathering on about stuff. You created a thing called studio K T one, which experiential learning seems to be maybe a starting point. It’s better. Describe it. Tell us a bit more about what KT1  was all about. Yeah. Claire: Mean, I’ve definitely done the blustering and standing up in front of them and trying to talk about stuff. But the idea was to set up a creative agency inside the university, specifically inside the school of art specifically inside the department that I’m within, which is cultural and creative industries, which has meant to be a mix of business and creativity. So it’s quite a new department and this was a new experiment. It was given a big pot of funding to set up for two years. So I sort of launched it with. I guess probably about 70 students who came along to the launch event when you could do those. And the idea was to get commissions from external clients and get students to work on them whilst getting paid, but without conflicting with the existing study. So we got some really interesting commissions. We got one from a Zillow who was an old client of mine. We got one from Veolia waste company. We got one from TBD. The. The data conference. So we were doing everything from building a giant polar bear made out of waste materials, putting it in the West end to doing an office chair race in the middle of a conference to building an installation about AI. And then we also had commissions from the vental center. So we were activating vacant units within there and filling them with art free to the public and just sort of experimenting and seeing what happened. So then the pandemic hit and all the clients they had ready to go, obviously sort of went into mothballs and. A lot of the internal departments started seeing the value of what I was doing. So I survived last year, literally by getting word of mouth around the university. And what better way than to design materials for. Students that are, you know, prospective students, why not get existing students to actually design that content because a lot of stuff was being done by just a small internal department. You know, see things through a student’s eyes, make it more valuable. So we don’t really well. And then there’s been sort of signs of recovery. And then we’re going to talk about the, the creative meanwhile project that I’ve been doing. So we have some conversations. I’ve already been working with the council and the business improvement district. We did quite an interesting project wrapping vacant shops with students’ artwork, probably that launched, I think, October last year and sort of continued as well. So we’ve wrapped the whole old close Klaus Olson store in the middle of Kingston is wrapped with colorful designs from one of our students, which is amazing. And then this has all led on to kind of the, one of those once in a lifetime things, really a developer approaches as and said we’re developing a new builder building. Would you like to have it rent-free for six months? So we kind of went, yeah. Okay. I think we can do that. And then we apply for the matter of London funding. Put a bit together. We get the Maryland funding and then we get it matched by the council. So Where we’re going. It’s the Crowdfunder is still rolling, but we we picked up the keys two weeks ago. We’ve got all PC world, which is 10,000 square feet, ground floor, and then first floor and some sort of rooms and offices off that some people would be quite terrified at this, but It just feels like exactly the right time. And it’s all sort of fallen into place. You know, we had lots of contingency plans, we sort of thought, okay. So if we can’t open in April or may, can we use it as a sort of space for students to use instead of their bedroom? Because obviously students in the pandemic haven’t been able to use the new, so to 2 million pound workshops, they haven’t been able to go to photography studios or use all these facilities, which there. Kind of paying or so that was sort of one of the potential ideas. Do we just use it as a sort of. Workspace, but now Boris announced obviously that non essential retail can open. So we’re sort of on track to open at the end of April may. And the idea is that it’s sort of part gallery Pope exhibition space, pot shop. So students can sell their work. Graduates can showcase what they’re doing, and it’s kind of until the end of August, it will be a kind of showcase for students. And for the community to use as well. So if we get approached by people who want to use the gigantic second floor, they can absolutely do that. So it’s, it’s a big experiment, but it’s everybody seems to refer back to it. And everyone that we’ve talked to about it is completely behind it. They want to see change in Kingston and they want to see something positive and something that’s led by students. To come out of this sort of weird time that we’ve been in for the past year and a half or so. Matt: So Kingston for people who don’t know the area is I, I’m not sure if this is totally true or not. Although I didn’t speak to somebody from Kingston council recently who seemed to nod in agreement to it that after Oxford street is the second biggest shopping area in the whole of greater London. Yeah. It’s big old. Big old shopping area, number of roads. So the old fashioned streets and things, although with a few kind of seventies and eighties mini arcade things going on,  fairly grotty, but nice open spaces. Lots of pedestrianized. Yeah. Areas. And even a year before pandemic hit. It was starting to become a bit weird as a number of the big retailers that arrived that going bust or pulling out of markets. So people like gap. We’re starting to close up Klaus Olson, which is one of the few stores they opened in the UK. And that was a big, big retail unit that they entered out. And then through the pandemic Obviously coming out of lockdown, there will be some stores that don’t open again. So the, the Arcadia group’s gone there are quite a few others that have sort of fallen by the wayside over the last 18 months or so. So there’s this really interesting challenge about this big space, which is all Oh, certainly to the, that yeah. The naked eye appears to be just mostly retail. I’m sure there are offices and things sort of dusted amongst as well. So. It feels like it’s the right time to start, to be able to do some experiments with about how, how can we start to think about reusing this space? There might not be that what you’re doing is that by any means to find Lance at the, some experiments around it seem to be absolutely the right time for this. Claire: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s, I coined something on a thing I did last week. Kingston has suffered from chain fatigue. So it’s basically all the chains that have failed within the last two years were all in Kingston. So they’ve just closed up. And I think a lot of landlords have. Because I’m to people. So because there’s a unit, a nice unit on the main drag they want that instead of the one around the corner. So the PC world is actually on five road, which is a really interesting street because it’s kind of one of the exits from the Bentall center. You’ve got a cafe Nero on the corner opposite, but then you’ve got a. Independent coffee shop. You’ve got a fancy dress shop, party shop. You’ve got trainers shop. You’ve got an art shop. Literally next door couldn’t have made this up. So it’s a lot of independent chains. And there’s something about the vibe on that street, which is really interesting. It’s sort of. A bit livelier than the others at the moment. I mean, obviously it’s, I was last there two weeks ago, I think. So it just seemed a bit, a bit had something about it. So, you know, obviously opening up the doors and getting the students inside was just watching their faces with something else. It was kind of one of those things of. I realized that what I’m doing is actually enabling people to, to be creative rather than saying I’m going to do all this. So I think it’s, it’s about opening a door and letting them be themselves. And I think for the last year, a lot of them haven’t been able to do that at all because they just haven’t had the space and they haven’t had like a lot, like anybody really, they haven’t had the mindset or you know, that they can keep campaigning to get You know, refunds on their 9,000 pounds. But I mean, that probably won’t happen. I think we all know that there might be some sort of agreements or something, but I don’t think anyone’s going to get their money back. But give them a space and see what they can create and, and sort of get something different out of it. So there’s there’s a group of students who were running a campaign on Instagram because. But you heard this her first or maybe not students aren’t really on Twitter, so everything is done through Instagram. It’s been really interesting to, if you kind of noticed that and this campaign really picked up steam. They got meetings with everybody, local MP, the Dean, and they sort of did affect change. And I just said to them, okay, these protest signs that you’ve made and you’ve put on Instagram, can we get them in the space? Oh, okay. And then another student who came in to measure up one of the product students sort of started pitching. I said, Oh, you final year, what you doing? What’s your final major project started telling me about 10. And I said, right. Where’d you want to put it? You know, it’s, it’s kind of that organic and it’s going to be that sort of quick because a lot of the time it isn’t quick and it isn’t organic. So I sort of want to change that and make it, make it more real for them. Chris: That’s the, that’s the key though, isn’t it? I mean, what you’re, what you’re talking about there is, is changing mindsets and providing leadership and making decisions for people because students aren’t very good at making decisions because they’re not yet at that stage where they’ve learned to make decisions for themselves often and universities, aren’t very good at making decisions because they are, they are bureaucratic and they are, you know, they are slow moving. So, if you can get to a point where you are able to be that point of decision and say, yep, we’ll just do that then, and change the mindset and make it into something that’s happening. Good grief. That the difference it can make to it, to the whole thing. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s almost the definition of inspiring and that’s how it’s that? How it’s, how it Claire: works. And it’s, it’s been really interesting cause it’s not just me doing this. We’ve we’ve done it in partnership with the student union who probably hadn’t ever seen the creative process of a project sort of. Emerge. So we were really clever and we actually tasked some of the second year students in the department. I sit in to come up with a brand and the identity they had, it feels like years, but they had, they had probably a few months and they pitched and we had three teams that pitched and one of them came up with the concept of not my beautiful house. That’s the name and this comfort, this concept of comfort is overrated. You know, everyone’s been sat around and the jogging bottoms and their trainers and slippers, but actually we want to challenge the norm and say, no, get out of your house and get into something that isn’t a house, but it’s not a shop. And it’s a space to sort of learn something or do something different. So that’s the kind of idea. And I think that even they were a bit. Terrified as to actually, Oh, we’re actually doing this. Yeah, yeah. You’re actually doing it. And then we knew at the same time, we’d also briefed the interior students. So they’ve all come up with sort of modular designs that will go in the space. And then when we move out at the end of August and find the next space, it will all transport quite easily. And their faces again were, Oh, so we’re actually making this year, we’ve got the budget now we’ve got. 70 grand. We’ve got some money now. So that’s been really interesting to see, you know, and I guess that’s like a lot of creative projects. You know, a lot of them just, and, or just a visual or a render, but, but no, I think when you get involved with me, I tend to make it actually happen. So, so yeah, it gets real at some point, whether you were loading a van or putting up. A poster or whatever, you’re carrying your mannequin up 10 flights of stairs to do a fashion showcase. That’s, that’s kind of how it, how it goes with my kind of things, because they tend to be attached to money and they tend to be attached to a client’s expectations, whereas this time around I’m the client. So, but the difference is I’ve got, you know, we’ve got this money to play with, so. It’s, it’s been a really interesting journey. I mean, I’ve never done a Crowdfunder before and I cannot tell you how many times I was refreshing that goddamn browser. It was it was almost like a Publix dog, just waiting for it to hit something and, and, you know, running it through social media as well. You know, where Twitter, you just. I don’t know if it’s just in these times, but you just get absolutely no response at all. You know, I’m doing this really exciting thing. It’s a Crowdfunder and you know, three people like it. It’s just kind of, it’s quite a funny one, but, you know, put something on Instagram stories. Hey, off you go. So it’s been really interesting Matt: with the, the toast launching at the end of this month. Obviously, you’ve got the students as the audience of this, for the, the, who will be the people creating this space. How are they thinking about who the audience for the space will be? Claire: So we kind of were quite I guess we were quite explicit about this. So when we’d done the interventions in the Bentall center before what we found was a lot of parents with kids were coming in because they were bored and there was no play area. So more than once sort of parents would come in and sort of say, well, can we leave Johnny with you then? We’d have to say no, we have absolutely no CBD checks. You have to stay with them. Obviously we do in this college today, or we’re doing this activity today. You can obviously sit in and stay here. So we wanted the space on five road to be very different. So it’s probably. I mean, I don’t, I don’t know what will happen. We’re, we’re keeping it very, very kind of open, but it’s probably a bit more of a grownup space. So you might see some challenging artwork. She might come across a life drawing class and all those kinds of things we couldn’t really do in that environment because it’s a sort of governed by rules and a few regulations and all that kind of thing. Whereas this space apart from a loading Bay, which has its challenges, we don’t, we don’t have much. I don’t know what the word is. We w w we’re kind of free to do what we want because the landlord has trusted us and we’ve signed a license agreement. So, you know, we’re not going to be making bombs in there or serving alcohol all hours of the day. It’s kind of going to be quite a controlled environment, but also, you know, flexible in where we wanted to be a next creativity. So, so yeah, Matt: the students. So you’ve talked about how they kind of, Oh, we’re really doing this side of it. How many of them are up for us. And how many of them just kind of Claire: Hills? Not many have run to the Hills yet. I mean, we’ve been. It’s obviously difficult when you’re doing it remotely, because you know, you have calls and some people are more vocal than others, so you can kind of spot who’s been the organizer and who’s put some work in and he’s kind of just turning up to be on the call. And I think it will become a lot easier when we start doing it in person. So. Well, two weeks ago, when the students came in, you could kind of see who was a bit flabbergasted and you could see who was just straight away getting the measuring tape out and making notes and sketches and things. So no one’s run for the Hills just yet, but I guess, you know, it, it, it’s a good time. It’s good timing because For the second year running this new degree show. So the degree show will be online. So the idea of students building something physical for their final year degree show, isn’t really going to happen. So this kind of, isn’t funny your degree show, but the skills that they’re doing and the, the pieces that they are building are kind of a showcase of, of their skills anyway. So yeah. Matt: And then you going outside of the. The groups within the faculty or are there other parts of Claire: investees? Yeah, so the whole way through the planning of this, we’ve been chatting to the business school. So I hadn’t really had much to do with them before. And I’ve literally just this afternoon met this amazing woman who is doing leading HR. Post-graduate business ma, but happens to have got amazing retail experience in like cue cards, not kick high. Oasis, she run retail. She worked for LCFF. So kind of like, why haven’t I met you before, so I’m going to meet her next week. So yes, we are definitely reaching outside and obviously there’s sort of stakeholder engagement people within the university PR who we’re all aware of what’s going on, but we would like sort of business and marketing students as well to sort of join in with the content that’s created in that. So. I’m not standing there saying this is what happens this week. And this is what happens next month, where we’re basically hiring for roles that will do that and run stuff, pastors. But anything goes really? I think I don’t want to stifle anyone’s creativity and say no, because my God, you get told no, so many times in your life. I just, I hate it. It makes me even more determined to do crazy things. So I don’t want to say no to anybody really. Matt: So it’s come back to the, the the studio Katie one. What did you learn out of trying to create an agency from a group of students in a university Claire: crumbs? I learned that no one knows how to write a brief, not even me. You can try, you can try and you can try and give them a template and they will do anything they can to not fill out. This is internal, mainly internal clients. But yeah, I learned that I learned students don’t read a brief or they, they do read it, but they don’t read it completely. There’s always something missed out. And I think because I only realized this year. Okay. So my kind of background has always been my business development sales, but always kind of in the creative industry, I sort of woke up one morning. I was in a meeting or something and I thought. Oh, God, I’m not even doing business. I don’t run anymore. I’m actually an agency person, but I don’t have any traffic managers. I don’t have any you business people. I’m just doing it all myself. So I learnt that it is possible to do it all, but the gray has keep coming. I learned that I just, I still love working with students. I’d kind of given it a bit of a break. So I worked to Ravensbourne for. Nine years, 10 years. And then I had a bit of a break. I went to the open data world and I sort of swore I’d never go back to a university, but this job seemed too much of a, it was too tempting. It was kind of what a crazy idea and how can I make it work? And I’d seen like other models, you know LCC, no, LSP, you have something called South bank collective where they it’s mainly kind of film and TV casting they do and filming and photography, but there’s a lot, there’s a lot of models out there that are really interesting. I don’t remember have you had Matt Desmarais on this podcast Matt: on and off, but never properly. Claire: So he said something to me, like. I can’t believe you’ve done it and made it work. You know, something like you’ve got balls or something that’s like that, that is exactly it because you, you know, as you said, Chris universities have very slow and they have their process and they have their business development manager and they have their knowledge exchange person. And it’s a very kind of. Tight tried and tested method, but I’m afraid I like coloring out of the lines and I like doing projects that are quick daddy real. And you know, the students come forward, you know, the students are friends center, so this is probably the closest thing I’ve ever done to any self promotion, which is terrifying. But at the same time, I kind of. I think it’s really important to kind of showcase projects like this because they don’t happen everywhere. And a lot of universities don’t really want to do something like this because it’s too hard. So Matt: it feels like there’s also those distinctions aren’t there because universities have got a well-established model for how they deal with business, which is through research and that’s all very, you know, One side of the academic world. And then you’ve got teaching, which is, I think in many certainly non-teaching institutions, which is the ones that are generally seen as better by the people who are in organizations that are non-teaching as well as teaching. But this idea about being able to actually make undergraduates learn through doing, which is almost like the apprentices stuff that we’ve spoken about on this show quite a few times over the years, And I was just wondering whether there’s this, this kind of model would be applicable into other areas. Now I think about, you know, people coming out of university with computer science degrees, the thing that’s usually the biggest gap in their experience and knowledge is any sort of semblance per how you apply any of it into real world. Problems cause everything has been theoretical ups at that point. And creative industry is the same. And actually being able to shift that into what I learn through doing where it’s doing for real, it just seems that this it, I don’t know, maybe it’s this, the kind of the conservatism that there is in the, in the, in the world of education sometimes, but. Chris: Maybe it’s not sorry, mate. Maybe it’s not just do it. Right? Because as you say, computing students, they often do do it. You know, they, they are, they are coding, building things. What they’re not doing is doing it in the process and in the context of an organization. And it’s a bit, like you said, Clara, about people reading. Brief. So, or you being able to write briefs same in the software world with requirements, it’s just, it’s, it’s just a different, different way of looking at it. So it, you know, that what you’re doing is you’re bringing them a dose of reality, real world process, aren’t you? Claire: Yeah. And I think it is part of the Kingston ethos. So I’m trying to remember the plaque as you come in, I’m going to get roasted for this. I think there is, it’s like learning through doing or making through doing there is a little motto that Kingston has. But I think the most, if I can do one thing for students it’s to understand what the value or their worth is. When I, when the first year start, I normally stand up and do a little introduction about the studio. And I always say, no, you guys know what’s going on. You know, there’s people sitting in advertising agencies who don’t know how to sell on Depop or how to, how to work on clubhouse or how to do an ASIS marketplace, whatever. So I kind of try and say to them, you know, what’s going on. Most people don’t have a clue, you know, you’re the future kind of thing, but a bit more inspiring than that. And I think if I can do one thing, it would be to get them to know their worth. Like I had a couple of students who were going to build an AOL filter for a client and they sort of came to me and said, Oh, do you think this is too much? And it was something like 400 pounds. I was like, well, have you actually costed out like how many hours it would take you, if it’s going to take both of you, you know, and sort of recalibrated it all. And they, they weren’t nervous about asking for money from the client which. I find really fascinating. And I found that a little bit with a lot of the lecturers as well. The, the risk, the risk of doing a live project was almost too much tobacco kind of thing. It was there’s too many rules, but I think that’s, you know, if you don’t fail and you don’t take a rescue, you’re not really gonna get anywhere. And if the students learn that quite early on, I think that’s really valuable. And if they can say right I’m building this air filter, but I’m, it’s two grand, you know? And I remember there was only once I came across someone who this is way, way back. This is when I was at Ravensbourne. And I sort of said, well, I pay all the students, you know, that we, we take on commissioners, but we pay the students and she just went well, that’s ridiculous. They haven’t graduated yet. And just had this really like, you know, when you have those scenarios, like role plays of the worst client ever. I never did any work with her, but I wouldn’t have done because she just had such a terrible view of students and it goes, it was almost like it’s poor cough. Isn’t it? The UCL . She was like that it was kind of. She was almost affronted at the fact that I was kind of saying, no, they still have a value, even though they’re still studying. And Ravensbourne was great for that because, you know, it’s, it’s really good broadcast media and filming. So they, all those kids were, you know, in the kit store was taken out the DSLRs much more, better. Camera’s than that. And they were doing it, you know, half the kids were on the Olympic broadcast team. OBS you know, they were, one of them was shooting Tom Daley from, you know, The, the cutout thing in the swimming pool window to speak, you know, somebody had that job, Oh, I’m filming Tom Daley or something, you know, just mad. And I remember a student said to me, it was like being at Disneyland except you were getting paid for it, working on the Olympics. And you know, that’s what you want for every student. That’s what you want for your job. Right. Maybe not Disneyland, but. Something like that be Matt: equipped. No, no, no. And it’s, I mean, if I think about it’s my university time, the things where I learned the most were undoubtedly the stuff that sat around the edges of my core there’s bits of my course that are sort of vaguely useful fakely, but you know, there’s only so much Beaudry are, you can bring to the workplace. But. I did sociology. So yeah, I mean, I think credibly useful, but not very practical, but then being involved with student radio. So it was for half the reason why I was able to pull this thing vaguely together was because I learned how to wet it on tape. Being involved with the student union and just understanding a bit about how organizations worked and about the politics and about understanding a bit more about The political system through student politics and, you know, all of that stuff sort of built up. And that was where the value was. Of course that, and especially now, as we’ve seen this massive change in how maybe going forward, students will continue to be taught as we come out of pandemic and, you know, remote. Working is not going to be just about people in work. I think there’s going to be elements of this sort of stick within the realm of higher education as well. And the risk is that all that stuff that’s traditionally been on the periphery could well get lost. So actually finding ways to make it front and center as part of the learning experience, I think feels like that’s really, really important. Claire: Yeah. I think giving them a place to fail is really important. Because so much of university is about passing it’s, it’s kind of, you know, I remember some of the first students that I worked with some final year illustration animation students, they were just brilliant. And I remember them trying to knuckle down to do their dissertations. And I just said, peanut just showed them some drawings, like hide past you. Like it’s such an antiquated way of judging the final year when. These kids were doing just such amazing work with, you know, stop, motion, everything. But, but no, it all boils down to a however many thousand word essay. And I always try and make them feel better by saying, Oh, I had to hand write mine because there weren’t computers and they go, Oh, are you really that old? Yeah. Matt: So Claire, if people want to be able to actually. Come and see what’s going on in Kingston. How they go about it. Claire: Just knock on the door of the PC world. If I’m in there, I’ll open it. I mean, we’ve had, that’s one of the most joyful things about doing something like this. When we were in the Bentall center, we just had people come in and go what’s this. What’s going on and you can just say anything and it could be true, but we had we had two gentlemen come in the first day we had the keys. Both of them went, Oh, has the PC world closed? And we went, yes, like this is an empty room with nothing in it. There’s no signs of a computer, nothing. I haven’t got a uniform on. There’s no officialness to this. And like we said, all the new addresses on the outside, because there’s a laminate with the new address. Oh, right. Okay. And then you know, other people just pop head and, and put their head in and say, what’s going on are going to be a quitter creative meanwhile space, you know, watch this space. So, yeah, knock on the door and see if where that is. At some point we will be peeling off the old PC world stickers. We’re trying to do something quite exciting to the outside of the building. So just watch this space, but it’s 19 to 23, five road in Kingston. It’s literally a two-minute walk from the station. I can send you all the socials so you can follow along. But yeah, watch this space really. Outro Chris: Well, that was a very interesting look into how a university actually starts to work in the real world, which doesn’t always happen that often they might experience. But that was, you know, very, very interesting. Thanks Claire. So not then what is going on this week for you? Matt:  We’re recording on Monday evening tomorrow. We’ve got Meeting to be able to decide the outcome of the big procurement which hopefully will come to a conclusion. So that’s very exciting. And then I am also over the course of the rest of this week starting interviews for two architecture roles that I’m recruiting into my team, which is also extremely exciting. And also, and actually getting more and more into this as, as I explore more is we’re just launching up a piece of work, looking at ethics. Data and AI. And the more that I look at it, the more important it seems to me to be becoming and how you get people who traditionally will go all that. It’s a bit complicated when it comes to matters of data. To start to take notes to the fact that they really need to understand more about this. Then they may be doing at the moment. And you just saw the story about the two EasyJet that almost had some problems taking off after the first lockdown, because of a miscalculation of load weight that came about because the software that they just upgraded over lockdown one had been written in a country where it was assumed that if somebody put moves. It meant it was an adult female. And if they put MIS it was a female child and so miscalculated by 1.2 tons, the weight of the aircraft to take off. And it’s brilliant because it wasn’t a problem with the data. It wasn’t a problem with the technology. It wasn’t a problem with the software. It wasn’t a problem with the airplane. It was absolutely a problem of. People not having a clear understanding about the meaning of things, the semantics. And anyway, it’s been a great little exercise that to be able to help me to illustrate to people why we need to spend a bit more time and attention to thinking about these things. So that was good. Claire, what have you got in the the weekend? Claire: I’m going to be in Kingston a lot. So I think I’m going to be there twice this week. And then on Monday as well, Monday is quite exciting. It’s I’m doing a rekkie for something which could be a gigantic project or it might just not be, Matt: Oh, that’s soon to be cryptic. And Mr. Weston, what is the the week, this third or so weekend? The month of April, hold in store for you. Chris: Well, partly it’s me. I’m very rapidly trying to get to grips with what’s going on at work and what I need to get done this week. Part two, actually, interestingly enough, on your data question, I’ve, I’ve got a blog to post tomorrow about data, culture, that and side, that whole data ethics and AI and things like that is about how, as a business, you, you value data, how you. Understand the impact of what you’re working with and all of those kinds of things is a really, you know, that’s kind of fundamental, right? And so that’s a, that’s an interesting subject and, and there are yeah, some useful, interesting things that came up today. I was, I was, I was doing a little bit of last minute research for this blog, so, so yeah, I’m posting that to Mauro and then we’ve got a conversation about it with our. A European digital leaders community on Thursday. So that should be good. Fun. So but yeah, yeah, it should be a busy week. I’ve got us going on, ah, some more events to prepare for and things like that. So it’s yeah, another good one Matt: next week we are going to be joined. It’s going to be like going into the office for you, Chris, isn’t it? Yeah. Chris: It’s a very exciting time because you know, it’s going to be me. I’m my colleague, Mr. Dowd. Matt: Excellent. Mark, who is a, a seasoned. Old person who does CIS. Now I’m increasingly seasoned. I find that what comes after seasoned veteran. And then basically you’re, you’re you’re as old as whales. To be able to extend out the use of Wales as an international unit of measure. But anyway, now Margaret Downs will be with us next week, talking about . Chris: You’re thinking of a boy, Jordan. Matt: Oh, new light. I think that would be fantastic. I didn’t want to put a note in there. It’s my Irish shoes Mark down. Who’ll be joining us next week. Look forward to that. And we’ll put more details about the work that Claire’s doing on the website at wb40podcast.com. See you next week.