The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide with Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy

An interview with Carrie Wiita and Ben Fineman, MFT Trainees and the co-hosts of the Very Bad Therapy podcast. Curt and Katie interview Ben and Carrie about their experience as graduate students and mental health advocates. We look at the short-falls of the educational system as well as the mythologies that stagnate the profession. We talk about how to improve therapy and the training we receive.It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. Interview with Carrie Wiita and Ben Fineman, Marriage and Family Therapist Trainees and Co-Hosts of the Very Bad Therapy podcastVery Bad Therapy gives voice to the stores that begin with an exasperated "You would not believe what happened with my therapist." Weekly episodes explore real-life stories of very bad therapy experiences as hosts Caroline Wiita and Ben Fineman seek to learn from diverse guests and experts in the field who help shed light on how things could have gone better. Supported by scientific research and a mission to bring out the best in psychotherapy through discussion of its worst moments, Very Bad Therapy is a corrective emotional experience for clinicians and clients alike. In this episode we talk about: How Curt is responsible for Carrie and Ben meeting (and how proud he is of that fact) What is missing in therapist education and how to look at the profession of therapy critically What we are told when we enter into the field and what the reality actually is How going to grad school and listening to MTSG Podcast can be super confusing The research that says therapists do not get better with experience The mythologies in the profession that stop us from being curious The disappointment in the status quo and the failure to move into the cutting edge The stagnation of the field when we have the same people talking about the same things The inconsistency of the faculty and their ability/desire to teach graduate students in therapy Problems with graduate programs related to the bureaucracy and misinformation Ben Caldwell’s Saving Psychotherapy (of course) Feedback on the Very Bad Therapy podcast (and how Carrie and Ben have taken it in) The importance of research, grounding in laws, ethics, clinical excellence, when challenging the status quo The willingness to make mistakes publicly and be transparent with accountability to normalize mistakes and reinforce that we are not perfect and cannot be perfect as therapists The role of defensiveness in very bad therapy The problem of perfectionism in the field Minimizing risk and maximizing “joining” or developing the therapeutic relationship How harmful the communication between therapists can be The impact of bias on the work How to improve your training

Curt and Katie talk about structuring self-care into your business practices. We look at how to incorporate self-care best practices into the way you build your work day. We also talk about common challenges to taking this advice.   It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.In this episode we talk about: Creating a cohesive plan for self-care in all aspects of your work Incorporating the concept of Flow into your work practices Defining Flow – the thoughts about losing yourself or being incredibly mindful The absence of mental load that occurs when you are doing the things that you are good at and enjoy most Decision fatigue, spoon theory Identifying how to set up your day strategically Studying your energy and motivation at different times of day The importance of rest, balancing of stress and rest to increase stamina The times when creativity comes are not when you’re working Working to prevent burnout, rather than manage it after it happens Intentionally scheduling rest and rejuvenating activities What types of rest are effective and what types of rest are ineffective The danger of the ideas of productivity and hustle The inefficiency of continuous running How to structure your schedule effectively Ritual and routine, grounding and mindfulness Creating systems to decrease the required number of decisions you need to make each day How the people around you elevate you or pull you down Intentionally separating “work” from home Closing out, decompression, and consultation Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! 2020 Kauai Continuing Education Retreat for Therapists Hosted by CAV AcademyFlow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly CsikszentmihalyiWhen: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel PinkPeak Performance: Elevate Your Game, Avoid Burnout, and Thrive with the New Science of Success by Brad Stulberg and Steve Magness Spoon Theory Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty EdwardsTherapy Reimagined 2020 Call for SpeakersTherapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors Relevant Episodes:Self-Care, Self-Compassion, and Self-Awareness for TherapistsThe Danger of Poor Self-Care for TherapistsCompassion FatigueTherapists in TherapyToxic Work EnvironmentsManaging Vicarious TraumaThe Burnout SystemAddressing the Burnout SystemThe Mental Load of TherapistsAll Kinds of Burned Out Connect with us!Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference) Our consultation services:The Fifty-Minute Hour Credits:Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/

An interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW about therapists who become suicidal. Curt and Katie interview Norine on the risk factors that therapists face as well as how we can support each other in our community. We talk about prevention, interventions with a colleague, and how to manage when a colleague dies by suicide. It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.Interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSWNorine Vander Hooven is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has been in practice for 32 years. She specializes in trauma, anxiety, suicide prevention, and life transitions. Norine is also certified in EMDR therapy, and is in training to be an EMDR therapy consultant. She uses this to work with people with PTSD, anxiety, and traumatic life events. Norine provides clinical consultation for therapists, as well as she works with young adults and adults in her private practice. Learn more at norinevanderhooven.comIn this episode we talk about: Following up on a previous episode, Therapist Suicide. Looking at supervisors who have died by suicide The lack of research and data regarding therapist suicide (both ideation and completion) The fear and stigma about disclosing suicidal ideation and attempts for therapists The difference between therapists and others in suicide risk Heightened risk factors for therapists How therapists take in the work with their clients The isolation and lack of support that can happen with therapists Suggestions for therapists to address suicidal thoughts, isolation, loneliness Belonging, Burden, and Capability The importance of community and consultation The suggestion to be in your own therapy Incorporating self-care even down to the small moments during the work day How to incorporate knowledge about the challenge of the profession into our educational system The shame therapists feel (both perceived and actual) about mental health challenges How to support therapists who might be experiencing suicidal thoughts How to provide therapy to therapists, incorporating conversations and assessment about suicide from the beginning, normalizing the experience and challenge of being a therapist Supporting therapists in our community Planning for postvention – comprehensive conversations after therapists have clients die by suicide or other big events in our colleagues’ lives The importance of normalizing the feelings that therapists could be presenting with in consultation groups What can we do when one of our colleagues die by suicide The typical reactions and responses from colleagues, clients, and community members Preparing to have a conversation with a client whose therapist has died by suicide

An interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW about assessing suicide appropriately for our clients from the beginning of treatment. Curt and Katie talk with Norine about what therapists often miss with their clients and how to treat suicidality when it comes up.It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.Interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSWNorine Vander Hooven is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has been in practice for 32 years. She specializes in trauma, anxiety, suicide prevention, and life transitions. Norine is also certified in EMDR therapy, and is in training to be an EMDR therapy consultant. She uses this to work with people with PTSD, anxiety, and traumatic life events. Norine provides clinical consultation for therapists, as well as she works with young adults and adults in her private practice. Learn more at norinevanderhooven.comIn this episode we talk about: Norine’s story and how she entered into suicidology How to appropriately assess for Suicide Risk from the beginning of treatment What needs to be asked in your intake The fear that therapists have in deeply looking at suicide with clients The importance of exploring traumas from birth for clients Why “die by suicide” is so much better than “committed” suicide What #notsix means (how many people are actually affected by a single suicide) Risk factors for suicidality: lack of belonging, feeling of being a burden, capability What therapists often miss when assessing for suicide The need to understand the client’s perception of the level of crisis around suicidality Old school assessments and safety contracts that are not useful, and what to use instead Who is most at risk for suicidal thoughts What to consider in assessing for suicidality with clients who don’t appear to be at risk Different types of suicidal thoughts Searching for hope and forward thinking in life Types of treatment modalities to address all types of suicidal thoughts How to successfully assess, safety plan, and address suicide head on

Curt and Katie talk about the nuance of treating therapists in therapy. We look at the unique dynamics in the therapeutic relationship as well as common traps to avoid.   It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.In this episode we talk about: The lack of research or guidance on how to treat therapists in therapy How different are therapists as therapy clients What it is like to have a therapist for a therapy client What to assess for with therapists The importance of looking at what the presenting problem is The expectation that therapists would be different that other clients The therapeutic alliance and dual relationship conversations The dynamic of making assumptions about therapists as clients The theme of competition between client and therapist Therapists overidentifying with therapist clients and making inaccurate assumptions A different type of presenting problem and length of treatment Common coping strategies (i.e., rationalization, focusing on cognition, non-judgmental, disconnect from feelings) that need to be overcome more with therapist clients Clarifying the role and rules in the room, so we can take off the armor Avoiding the temptation of staying in intellect and insight Pushing for some comparison to other clients – reassurance, validation, vulnerability, trying to please or take care of the therapist The importance of the therapist holding the container, so the therapist-client can do their work How to navigate the differences between being a therapist and a supervisor or a manager How therapists are like other clients, but totally different Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Speakers Relevant Episodes:Therapists in Therapy Connect with us!Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference) Our consultation services:The Fifty-Minute Hour Credits:Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/

An interview with Pardis Mahdavi, PhD, and Negeen Moussavian, AMFT, regarding Iran, current events, and how the news might impact Iranian clients.It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. Interview with Pardis Mahdavi, PhD and Negeen Moussavian, AMFTPardis Mahdavi, PhD is currently Director of the School for Social Transformation at Arizona State University. Before coming to Arizona, she was Acting Dean of the Korbel School of International Studies at the University of Denver (2017-2019), after spending eleven years at Pomona College from 2006-2017 where she most recently served as professor and chair of anthropology and director of the Pacific Basin Institute at Pomona College as well as Dean of Women. Her research interests include gendered labor, human trafficking, migration, sexuality, human rights, transnational feminism, and public health in the context of changing global and political structures. She has published four single authored books and one edited volume in addition to numerous journal and news articles. She has been a fellow at the Social Sciences Research Council, the American Council on Learned Societies, Google Ideas, and the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. In 2018 she was appointed by Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper and re-appointed by Governor Jared Polis to serve on the Colorado Commission on Higher Education.Negeen Moussavian is a Registered Associate Marriage and Family Therapist (#107771) working under the supervision of Curt Widhalm LMFT (#47333) in Encino, CA. She received her Master of Arts in Clinical Psychology with an emphasis in Marriage & Family Therapy from Pepperdine University. She works with clients dealing with relationships, dating, infidelity, and trauma. Additionally, she works with Iranian-American clients on issues surrounding identity, generational trauma, and other culture specific topics. She implements a combination of holistic and traditional therapy practices, including EMDR therapy.In this episode we talk about: Current events in Iran as well as historical context Liminality – the feeling of not belonging here or there The importance of being informed The uncertainty that can lead to fear and then to hate The crushing tsunami wave of islamophobia that is coming in the United States How significant events related to Iran impact Iranian-Americans The dramatic changes within Iran How therapists can help Iranian families to cope with the impacts of current events

Curt and Katie talk about how difficult it is for therapists to take care of ourselves. We look at why we struggle with the self-care that we teach our clients, including shaming in our field, lack of connection to our shadow-self, and where we seek support.It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.In this episode we talk about: Why the Giving Tree is a bad role model Road blocks therapists put in their own way Katie’s notion of Sacrificial Helping The wounded healer concept The reasons we do not take care of ourselves How we define our value, especially related to the idea that our value is to help others The harm of valuing productivity over all else The search for meaning – what we do is meaningful to us Volunteering on top of the work we do The idea that you can be impacted by the therapy you do The role that the shadow self plays The strict, externalized parent and oppositionality The shame for not “self-caring” enough or believing in the “right” form or health from our field Burnout’s effect on decision-making The lack of training on how to use the coping strategies on yourself How to make decisions better about self-care as a therapist Opening space for mistakes in our field How relational therapies can be a solution for therapists who are grappling with their own stuff Where to seek support (and where not to seek support) Intention versus reactivity Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.The Giving Tree by Shel SilversteinLori Gottlieb, MFTIrvin Yalom, MDTherapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Speakers Relevant Episodes: Self-Care, Self-Compassion, and Self-Awareness for Therapists Vulnerability, Mistakes, and The Imposter Syndrome The Danger of Poor Self-Care for TherapistsCompassion FatigueTherapists in TherapyToxic Work EnvironmentsManaging Vicarious TraumaThe Burnout SystemAddressing the Burnout SystemThe Mental Load of TherapistsAll Kinds of Burned OutImpaired TherapistsTherapist SuicideWhen is it Discrimination? Connect with us!Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference) Our consultation services:The Fifty-Minute Hour Credits:Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/

Special Episode: Curt and Katie talk about the recent NUHW- Kaiser Permanente Mental Health Worker Strike. Katie interviews a National Union of Healthcare Workers representative, Dr. Kenneth Rogers. We then both reflect on the interview and a statement from Kaiser Permanente, especially related to the implications for the profession as a whole.It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.In this episode we talk about: The implications of the strike for all mental healthcare workers A statement from Kaiser Permanente An interview with Dr. Kenneth Rogers, shop steward and member of the bargaining team for NUHW The focus of the strike – looking at what the Union is requesting What a shop steward is, how the union works, what the bargaining table looks like The bureaucracy and distance that impacts the bargaining The different perspectives of each side The complexity of the decision making, the strategy of Kaiser Permanente The possibilities that Katie sees related to state-of-the-art mental health services The goal of transforming the model of care The inefficiencies that lead to lower productivity, the focus needed to improve care The positives in the current Kaiser proposal The hope of coming together to work on the future of mental healthcare The lack of parity in how mental healthcare workers are treated versus other professionals in Kaiser, looking at the perceived payment philosophy NUHW goal for the mental health system of care – solely getting to the basic standard of care The lack of trust between Kaiser and NUHW and the complexity of the decision-making Rogers’ reflections on the survival guide tips and the impact of the strike on clinicians and patients, advice for the striking clinicians The impact of Kaiser’s payment philosophy on other workplaces (Curt busting out some economic theory from Richard Thayler) The importance of the union work on wages in other workplaces Parity for mental health professionals and what that means for mental health parity Call to action to stay informed, step up and advocacy  Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.National Union of Healthcare Workers: NUHWNUHW Facebook PageKaiser Don’t DenyUnion Representative Dr. Kenneth Rogers bio:Kenneth Rogers, Psy.D. is a psychologist who has worked with the Kaiser Permanente Medical Group for the past 16 years. He has worked at the Fremont, Santa Clara, and Campbell Medical Centers in the past and currently works at the Elk Grove clinic near South Sacramento. He has been a shop steward for NUHW since its inception in 2009 and has been on the NUHW Executive Board since 2015. Dr. Rogers was a member of the 2010-2015 contract bargaining team and he remains a member of the current bargaining committee since July, 2018. Los Angeles Times Article The Kaiser Permanente ACE StudyEconomic Theory: Nobel Prize Winning Economist Richard Thayler – Anomalies: Inter-industry Wage Differentials Relevant Episodes:Modern Therapists Strike Back Connect with us!Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference) Our consultation services:The Fifty-Minute HourCredits:Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/

Curt and Katie talk about the advocacy efforts to make paying prelicensed individuals a best practice. We talk about a statement recently approved by CAMFT, looking at the process, the implications, and a call to action.In this episode we talk about: A public statement approved at the most recent meeting of California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists The supporting information that suggests that paying prelicensed individuals is a best practice of supervision The importance of a living wage, benefits, and meaningful work Curt’s journey in support of this statement The ability (and the challenge) for each of us in these types of advocacy efforts. The call to action to take this statement to your own professional organization The type of push back to expect and how to address it Laws and best practices versus implementation and accountability Addressing bad actors and the goal of keeping good actors good How a single voice can be silenced, but a movement can make a difference The mission of the #therapymovement to leave our profession better A second call to action for you to stand up and advocate for the necessary changes you see Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists The Public Board book from the December CAMFT board meeting (statement on pg. 204-206)References:Abel, J. R., Deitz, R., & Su, Y. (2014) Are recent college graduates finding good jobs? Current Issues in Economics and Finance, 20(1). Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=2378472Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA). (2014). Trauma Informed Care in Behavioral Health Service: Treatment Improvement Protocol (TIP) Series 57. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, Rockville, MD.Crain, A. (2016). Understanding the impact of unpaid internships on college student career development and employment outcomes. NACE Journal. Available at https://www.naceweb.org/job-market/internships/exploring-the-implications-of-unpaidinternships/.Eby, L. T., Burk, H., & Maher, C. P. (2010). How serious of a problem is staff turnover in substance abuse treatment? A longitudinal study of actual turnover. Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, 39, 264–271.Hickman, B. (2014, July 23). What we learned exploring unpaid internships. Retrieved from https://www.propublica.org/article/what-we-learned-investigating-unpaid-internshipsHoge, M. A., Morris, J. A., Daniels, A. S., Stuart, G. W., Huey, L. Y., & Adams, N. (2007). An action plan for behavioral health workforce development. Annapolis Coalition on the Behavioral Health Workforce: Cincinnati, OH.Knudsen, H. K., Johnson, J. A., & Roman, P. M. (2003). Retaining counseling staff at substance abuse treatment centers: Effects of management practices. Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, 24(2), 129- 135. Relevant Episodes:Defining the Therapy MovementTrauma Informed Work PlaceJoining Your AssociationModern Therapists Strike BackLet’s Get Political Building Hope for the Next Generation of TherapistsThe Fight to Save Psychotherapy Getting Personal to Advocate for Compassion, Understanding, and Social Justice Connect with us!Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference) Our consultation services:The Fifty-Minute Hour Credits:Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/

An interview with Dr. Laura Louis, CEO of Couch to Podium, on how to move into public speaking as a therapist. We look at best practices, what therapists get wrong, and how to get started.It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. Interview with Dr. Laura Louis, CEO of Couch to Podium.Dr. Laura Louis is the founder of the Couch to Podium academy which consists of a Facebook community, Courses Retreats, Seminars and a Mastermind. Dr. Louis teaches therapists and counselors all about the business side of speaking. She was able to book over 40 speaking engagements last year alone AND build a steady stream of speaking engagements.Dr. Louis has conducted over one hundred paid speaking engagements nationally and internationally. She has negotiated travel, and expenses along with $3000 speaking fees. Dr. Louis' clients have launched paid speaking gigs, developed retreats and launched programs.  Dr. Louis has been featured on NBC, has been asked to speak for the American Psychological Association Conference and The National Sales Conference. In this episode we talk about: Laura’s program that teaches therapists how to move from doing therapy to booking paid speaking engagements Speaking as an option to scale your business The importance of you identifying your ideal client and what you teach them – that’s a talk Identifying how to create the talk and who to pitch speaking to Supporting your own dreams by being within a circle that is supportive The benefit of getting unpaid experience in speaking (visibility, becoming comfortable, flowing through your talk, etc.) Toastmasters as a great training ground Building your list while speaking, so you can continue to support your audience after the talk Social proof and understanding the experience – photos and videos – help you book speaking engagements Monetizing your speaking through other offerings, back of room sales, licensing, etc. Speaking to your target market to increase clients Understanding how to assess what you can get out of speaking Mindset changes needed to ask for pay or other benefits from speaking Looking at the whole experience and benefits to determine whether you would like to take a speaking engagement How to find paid speaking engagements The need to adjust language to pitch to decision-making (pain points, solutions, without psycho-jargon) The different types of applications, best practices The differences between putting your own events on versus speaking for other people’s events The ability to make money if you master the details of putting on your own live events The need to understand sales and marketing to move forward with speaking The time investment required when becoming a paid speaker Relevant Resources:We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for SpeakersCouch to Podium website Couch to Podium Membership Program Dr. Louis’ Facebook Group: Paid to Speak (Mental Health Speakers Group)Dr. Louis’ Facebook Page: Couch to PodiumDr. Louis’ InstragramDr. Louis’ website: https://www.atlantacoupletherapy.com/Dr. Louis’ training: https://drlouis.clickfunnels.com/booked-to-speak32977293 Relevant Episodes:Clinical MarketingBeyond Selling the CouchOpen to OpportunitySo You Want to Plan a Conference Connect with us:The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)Credits:Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/