The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide with Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy

Being a Therapist on Both Sides of the CouchAn interview with Rwenshaun Miller, LCMHC, where he shares what therapists get wrong when understanding the client perspective and how to genuinely connect with clients. Curt and Katie chat with Rwenshaun about tough questions on racial bias in diagnosing and the impact of systemic structures in Black and brown communities. They also discuss a vision for an ideal mental health system and suggestions for how to start advocating for change.It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.Interview with Rwenshaun Miller, MA, LCMHC, NCCRwenshaun Miller is an accomplished author, motivational speaker, counselor, consultant and philanthropist who has dedicated his life and career to, not only reshaping the negative connotations often associated with mental health, but also directly impacting the lives of those living with mental health challenges. Of all his accolades and roles, Mr. Miller proudly first serves as a Mental Health Change Agent. As a result, Mr. Miller has globally impacted the lives of many through his awareness efforts.Mr. Miller’s relentless passion and commitment derived from his personal experience living with Bipolar Disorder. Through his journey, Mr. Miller initially encountered similar challenges many face, including that of acceptance of a mental health diagnosis. Eventually, Mr. Miller decided to not allow this diagnosis to define and debilitate him realizing that Bipolar Disorder is not what defines who he is. Thus, he embarked on a path to help uplift, empower, encourage and teach others who live with mental health challenges how to “thrive” in life.In this episode we talk about: Rwenshaun’s story of encountering systemic barriers while facing his own mental health challenges and how he uses his experience as a client to inform his work as a therapist as well as educate other therapists. Looking at “both sides of the couch” and bridging the differences between what we learn as clients and what we are taught to do as therapists. Discussion of what therapists do wrong when it comes to understanding the client perspective. The utility of diagnosing as well as problems with treating someone like a diagnosis (impact on self-perspective, living up to the diagnosis, etc.) Examining how inherent white bias shows up in diagnosing and how to consider environmental factors when conceptualizing a client’s behavior. Exploration of how systemic structures impact the mental health of BIPOC youth and the need to challenge the systems that hold these individuals back. Looking at ways to step outside the box of conventional therapy techniques to meet client’s where they are at and connect with them as a person (engaging clients in video games, basketball, yoga, etc.). Discussion of how to set the stage for therapy to ensure it is comfortable for the therapist and client. Exploration of how the stigma of mental health has changed in BIPOC communities and what is needed to change systemically to continue reducing the stigma. Envisioning an ideal for how therapists and systemic structures can support the mental health needs of society, along with examining current barriers and how work to reduce them. The importance of advocating for preventative care to improve mental health care.  Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!Rwenshaun’s websiteEustress Inc.Eustressin JournalInjured Reserve: A Black Man's Playbook To Manage Being Sidelined By Mental Illness Twitter: @RwenshaunFacebook: Rwenshaun MillerInstagram: @Rwenshaun

At Least 3 Reasons Continuing Education SucksCurt and Katie chat about why continuing education is usually pretty ineffective. We dig into a listener question related to repackaged, introductory level, uninspiring presentations. We look at the systemic concerns related to CE standards as well as the difficulty balancing high quality education with affordability. We explore research that shows that continuing education (especially when it is solely didactic) does not impact client outcomes. We also share ideas to improve continuing education for the next generation of clinicians.      It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.In this episode we talk about: The problems with continuing education rules and what that means for the types of education modern therapists often can find The ways in which presenters repackage others’ material Continuing education is not proven to improve client outcomes CE standards that limit the innovation and interactive capability How most CE is very general and appropriate for all levels of clinicians (not solely intermediate to advanced therapists) The type of didactic training that might be impactful or effective (but may not be CE worthy) The problem with not having practical applications involved in presentations Learning, practicing and then doing Why effective continuing education is expensive and whether they make a difference in being better therapists Deliberate practice and the effectiveness of spending time outside of session (and training) practicing skills Practice-based evidence (measuring how well our clients are doing) and why this is the strongest way to do better work The importance of giving accurate feedback to CE providers The acknowledgement and acceptance within the system that CE doesn’t really work – and the push back and reasons why people within the system don’t want to fix it Assessing competence and engagement in training (pros and cons) The balance between accessibility and accountability The shelf-life of graduate education and the need for continuing education Our vision related to continuing education and learning Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! The Cycle of Excellence by Tony RousmaniereDr. Joy DeGruyWhy TED Talks don't change people's behaviors: Tom Asacker at TEDxCambridge 2014 Scott Miller, PhD: Deliberate PracticeDr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT – Ben Caldwell LabsArticles: Impact of Formal Continuing Medical Education Does Professional Training Make a Therapist More Effective?

How to Stay in Your Lane to Support Diversity and InclusionAn interview with Dr. Joy Cox, PhD, on tapping into the strength of community and genuine relationships to understand and address systemic oppression. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Joy about intersectionality, the harmful stories we can tell ourselves about people who are different from us, and what we can do to best support diversity and inclusion in all the spaces we inhabit. We also address why it is important to do some of this work privately (rather than working it out publicly through statements on social media).It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.Interview with Dr. Joy Cox, PhDDr. Joy Cox is a body justice advocate using her skill set in research and leadership to foster social change through the promotion of fat acceptance and diversity and inclusion. With 37 years living as a fat, Black cisgendered woman and 7+ years of professional experience under her belt, Dr. Cox draws on her own experiences and skill set to amplify the voices of those most marginalized in society, bringing attention to matters of intersectionality addressing race, body size, accessibility, and “health.”Joy has been featured on several podcasts and media productions such as Food Pysch with Christy Harrison, Nalgona Positivity Pride with Gloria Lucas, Fat Women of Color with Ivy Felicia, and Huffington Post’s piece, “Everything You Know About Obesity is Wrong.” She also just authored her first book, Fat Girls in Black Bodies: Creating Communities of Our Own. She is the voice of an overcomer, looking to propel others into a place of freedom designed by their desires.In this episode we talk about: What Dr. Joy is putting out into the world Intersectionality and bias, stigma How to take an intersectional approach The importance of genuine relationships in understanding others Discussing the panel discussion in the conference when addressing learning about others The harm of putting work on individuals with lived experience Why and when you should pay for expert consultation The challenge of googling to learn (when it works and when to seek expert guidance) The importance of saying no when someone is asking you to become a spokesperson The exponential impact of intersectionality of marginalized identities How intersectional identities compound to create narratives Anything that is heavily stigmatized in society – racism is not far behind it Knowledge without learning to implement Why you should find your lane and move accordingly How to identify what you can and should do to support inclusion The importance of identifying where to do the work, it doesn’t have to be public Why individuals need to learn themselves, understand their heart, and identify who they are Getting it right is better than getting it fast Having the important conversations and checking in with the people who matter The unreasonable expectation to have an opinion on everything The benefits of community with each person staying in their lane Creating community that includes all people and the strength that provides Pushing back on the idea that everyone has to be able to do all of the roles We need to change how we think and we need to change how we feel to uncover more space than we knew was available for all people Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!Dr. Joy Cox's WebsiteJabbie AppDr. Joy on Instagram: FreshOutTheCocoonDr. Joy on TwitterDr. Joy's Book: Fat Girls in Black Bodies Creating a New Space of BelongingThe Care Bear Stare

Why You Should Stop Trying to Convince Clients to ChangeAn interview with Hillary Bolter, LCSW, on Motivational Interviewing. Curt and Katie chat with Hillary about what MI really is, what therapists often get wrong when supporting clients in making changes, and the importance of how therapists show up for this evidence-based model.  It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.Interview with Hillary Bolter, MSW, LCSW, LCASHillary is one of those folks that inherently thinks they have great ideas and solutions for people upon first encounter (Enneagram 1!). She’s ready to jump in and FIX! When she began her MI learning process, she realized just how essential MI was going to be for her energy, effectiveness, and longevity in the helping profession!She has been a member of the Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers (MINT) since 2011. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker & Addiction Therapist and absolutely delights in helping individuals, groups, and organizations learn the essential skills of Motivational Interviewing. She has worked as a helping professional for 20 years, ranging from working in wilderness therapy to community mental health, providing in home & school-based services, as a therapist with specialties including working with anxiety, trauma, addiction, and veterans.In this episode we talk about: Motivational Interviewing (MI) is simple but not easy The righting reflex – the tendency for therapists to try to persuade toward change The differences between MI and the stages of change What does “using MI” really mean? The spirit of MI – the attitude we bring to our clients – empathy, collaboration, evocation, acceptance and compassion OARS skills: open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries Change talk – the more people talk about change, the more likely they are to change Focusing on why people would like to change When we focus on why TO change, clients may argue against change (voicing the ambivalence) How therapists may want to navigate changes that feel urgent (unsafe behaviors, for example) Three styles of communication: following, guiding, directing The ways to move from directing or educating back into a more collaborative stance Why MI isn’t more widely used The ways that MI skills could intermingle with other theoretical orientation The idea around walking with your clients Looking at the myth that motivational interviewing is manipulative How to assess whether the change is in the client’s best interest The focusing process as a way to ensure client participation Motivational Interviewing is a communication technique Distinguishing between the motivations that drive the change – focusing on the best interest of the client is the only one that really is MI The importance of experiential training for MI Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!Hillary’s website: bolterconsulting.comSpecial offer: use “MTSG” for 10% off a foundations of MI course Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hillarybolter/ Hillary's Facebook GroupMotivational Interviewing Network of Trainers (MINT)

Post Pandemic PracticeCurt and Katie chat about what our practices can look like post pandemic. We explore the creativity that the pandemic has inspired and what the clinical and business implications might be for continuing in flexible modalities. We talk about logistics, clinical evaluation, and ethics related to the options available for the clients. We also talk about how to take care of yourself while taking care of clients.     It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.In this episode we talk about: How creativity can be used in practice Different options for therapy (telehealth, outdoor/walk and talk, in-person, concierge) The logistical challenges of having different options for your clients (different locations, different modalities, etc.) The flexibility required during the pandemic and how to adjust schedules after returning The benefits of having so many options Boundaries and flexibility needed to manage a multimodal practice The importance of communication and teamwork The benefits of this flexibility to clinicians The considerations of cost and charging different fees, and rationale for how you set fees The clinical benefits and challenges for different modalities The necessary documentation of rationale Clinical considerations for in-person sessions Some CYA advice The importance of taking this time to deliberately design the practice you want Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! APA Article - COVID-19: When is it OK to provide more in-person services?Outdoor therapy: Jennifer Deacon, MBACPLeadership article – Checklist for Post Pandemic Reentry

Psychedelic-Assisted TherapyAn interview with Dr. Craig Heacock, M.D., about innovative treatments in psychiatry. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Heacock about psychedelic-assisted therapy – looking at efficacy, safety, and risks for these promising treatments (ketamine, psilocybin, and MDMA) for depression and trauma. We also discuss the debate about medicalization versus legalization of these substances. It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.Interview with Dr. Craig Heacock, M.D.Dr. Craig Heacock is an adolescent/adult psychiatrist and addiction specialist in Colorado as well as the co-producer and host of the psychiatric storytelling podcast Back from the Abyss. He was a therapist in the Phase 3 trial of MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for PTSD and has particular interest in the use of ketamine and other psychedelics to treat severe mood disorders and PTSD. He is a graduate of the University of New Mexico School of Medicine and did his psychiatry training at Brown University.In this episode we talk about: The innovations in psychedelic-assisted therapy Why it is so hard to find a good psychiatrist, especially one that goes beyond med checks How psychiatry is changing, as well as how little has changed in medication since 1994 Treatment-resistant may mean deep-seated trauma Definitions of psychedelics, psychedelic-assisted treatment Ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin Efficacy for treatment with ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin for trauma and depression The speed of building trust and moving into the working phase with these treatments Safety concerns and side effects with ketamine, psilocybin, and MDMA Boundaries and safety for therapists (as well as clients) during these treatments The vulnerability during these treatments Self-assessment for mental health providers whether they should work in this space The importance of doing your own psychedelic treatment before being a therapist in this work Client-perceptions of clinicians doing their own psychedelic work (or publicly owning their story) The increasing acceptance of these types of treatments – the treatments becoming more mainstream Psilocybin – in trials for FDA approval for trauma treatment, but may be legalized before it is medicalized and used for treatment Medicalization versus legalization conversation The problems with medical THC (including making symptoms worse and psychotic breaks) Micro-dosing efficacy and risks and whether they should be managed by a doctor The importance of assessing sleep and substance use/abuse Abyss stories – how Dr. Heacock started telling these stories and the power of these stories Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!Craig Heacock, MD WebsiteBack from the Abyss PodcastInterview with Lisa LingLaura Northrup Inside Eyes Podcast Article: Self-admitted psychedelic use and association with psychedelic culture harm perceptions of researchers’ scientific integrit

Serious Mental Illness and HomelessnessAn interview with California State Senator Henry Stern and Dr. Curley Bonds, Chief Medical Officer for Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health about legislation and programmatic changes needed to better serve highly vulnerable individuals. Curt and Katie talk with both Senator Stern and Dr. Bonds about the limitations of Laura’s Law and the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act as well as the hope for stronger, more collaborative mental health initiatives for individuals grappling with serious mental illness and homelessness. We talk about the practical funding and workforce concerns as well as how to fix them while also supporting mental health professionals. Curley L. Bonds, M.D., oversees all clinical practices for the Los Angeles Country Department of Mental Health (LACDMH) as well as the full range of programs that function to engage and stabilize clients by bringing them into the Department’s community-based system of care.In this episode we talk about: Continuing our special series on Fixing Mental Healthcare in America What the ideal mental health care can look like for individuals with serious mental illness, substance abuse treatment, and navigating homelessness The siloed nature of services at present The importance of consistent engagement and familiarity Recovery-oriented and person-centered care The importance of self-directed care Wraparound services The importance of engaging people with lived experience Culturally responsive services The current laws protect autonomy without the means to support people without capacity The bureaucracy that is keeping people from getting the services they need Changes to Laura’s Law and LPS Act that are needed to better serve individuals with grave disability or require conservatorship Engagement, rights, and how to better serve individuals Assisted Outpatient Treatment – how it can be best utilized and most effective The ability to shift things through budget and regulatory changes The understanding that current caseloads that are too high and the need to add resources Alternatives to long term conservatorship The willingness to invest in services and solutions Balancing the tension between self-advocacy/self-determination versus providing care Mental Health Advanced Directives as a tool to help with making these decisions Who can and should be at the table in making these decisions The desire to invest in people to provide services Whether to invest and how to assess efficacy The problem of the fragmented systems and communication about mental health advanced directives The importance of education for people needing and providing care on the options Looking at the benefits and “selling” the positive elements of assisted treatment Letting clinicians do clinical work – why that’s important and ideas of how to make it work Tracking outcomes effectively while diminishing bureaucracy Looking at the most effective goals and outcomes for clients Looking at unfunded mandates and how to support therapists and clients to get services without so much paper pushing and complicated outcomes Having service providers at the table to create the programs effectively Results-driven metrics and payment (the pros and cons) Addressing policy and stigma Looking at the problems with the current process for services and conservatorship Ideas for redirecting funding and working in collaboration with law enforcement How to take part in these efforts and weigh in on legislation, especially early in the process Our reflections on the interviews and the next steps

Fixing Mental Healthcare in AmericaAn interview with Dr. Nicole Eberhart and Dr. Ryan McBain from the RAND Corporation. Curt and Katie kick of their special series related to the problems and potential solutions in the mental healthcare system. We interview Drs. Eberhart and McBain about the study they authored related to the structural concerns in the mental health system as it is currently built and their recommendations for solutions and best practices going forward.Nicole Eberhart, PhD is a Senior Behavioral Scientist at the RAND Corporation and a licensed clinical psychologist whose research and evaluation focuses on mental health. She has expertise in health program evaluation, prevention and early intervention, health services and systems, and innovative care models including those that integrate primary and behavioral health care. Dr. Eberhart been evaluating mental health programs and policies in California and nationally for over a decade.Ryan K. McBain is a policy researcher at the RAND Corporation. He focuses on the design and evaluation of health policies and programs meant to reach vulnerable populations—including those coping with mental health conditions, HIV/AIDS, homelessness, and poverty. To achieve this, McBain has utilized a wide range of methodologies, including econometric approaches for quasi-experimental analysis, cost-effectiveness analysis, and decision analytic models, as well as key informant interviews and focus group discussions. Internationally, McBain has worked with the World Bank, World Health Organization, Harvard University and Partners In Health, where he has focused on evaluating mental health, HIV, and primary care service delivery systems, primarily in sub-Saharan Africa and Haiti. McBain holds a Ph.D. and M.P.H. in global health with concentrations in health economics and health policy analysis from Harvard University, as well as a B.A. in psychology from Gordon College and Oxford University in the United Kingdom.In this episode we talk about: Introducing our new series on Fixing Mental Healthcare in America RAND corporation report on the mental health system Structural issues in the current mental health system Work force issues, lack of professionals, poor distribution across communities Payment issues – Mental Health providers are not paid as well as other medical providers The problem of fee for service, government insurance programs, and private pay Culture problem – historical lack of value of mental health, stigma and de-prioritization of mental health Lack of educational programs for mental health, lack of consistent, effective crisis response The idea of increasing wages for entry level positions Peer Support Specialists as another way to expand mental health workforce The importance of lived experience and the professionalization of the peer support specialist profession (for example certification) The idea of paying for value rather than paying for services Focusing on prevention rather than costly emergency services The need for legislators to make changes The costs of not fixing the mental healthcare system An evidence-based continuum of care Taking a big picture approach (looking at the cost for services and the cost for society)

It’s NOT a Chemical ImbalanceAn interview with Dr. Kristen Syme on the situational and cultural impacts on depression. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Syme about the role anthropology can play in helping to challenge long held assumptions in psychology. We look at conceptualizations for depression and suicidality and how the over focus (in the Western world) on the individual as the agent for mental health and wellness. We talk about how the chemical imbalance model doesn’t hold up as well as better explanations for depression and suicidality.  In this episode we talk about: Syme’s research and how she is working to challenging assumptions The lack of attention on networks and systems and an over-focus on “the self” as an agent for mental health and wellness How psychological pain is signaling us that there are things in our environment that are unhealthy for us Depression and psychological pain are not just within us, but also around us What is wrong with the idea of “chemical imbalance” model Adversity causes depression The problem of saying “there’s a pill for that” The work case for depression research Ethical issues related to medicating away depression or psychological pain How non-western cultures address psychological pain There is “not a direct translation for depression in any other language” – Kristen Syme The internal idea of the imbalance of black bile that leads directly through the ages to the concept of imbalance of serotonin How other cultures talk about depression and situations, with more refined, specific language How our language creates our reality around depression and how broadly we define it How common depression (as broadly defined) is in the modern world The lack of evidence for a “chemical imbalance” How big pharma has impacted the conceptualization of depression The inadequacy of treatment based on this conceptualization The causes of suicidality: sexual assault, forced marriages, abuse The problem of trivializing “seeking attention” The tendency of coming up with “the theory” Looking at how people might be better served by the mental health system The importance of creativity and novelty in identifying better treatment Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!Article: Mental health is biological health: Why tackling “diseases of the mind” is an imperative for biological anthropology in the 21st centuryDr. Kristen Syme on Twitter Dr. Kristen Syme on Google Scholar Relevant Episodes: Burnout or Depression Is Therapy an Opiate of the Masses? Connect with us!Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences Our consultation services:The Fifty-Minute HourCredits:Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/

Partners of TherapistsCurt and Katie chat about how our job and training can impact our partners. We look at the benefits like emotional intelligence, resilience, and perspective. We also look at the challenges therapists and their partners face when trying to navigate being in relationship while one partner is navigating this career. Suggestions about how to navigate conversations and confidentiality as well as possibilities for improving relationships are discussed.    It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.In this episode we talk about: The impact of being a therapist on long-term relationships/partnerships The insight into people and relationships that can be a benefit of partnering with a therapist Expecting that the therapist will be the expert or do the emotional lifting The concern that therapists overanalyze their relationships (don’t therapize me!) Therapists breaking down characters in movies and books and ruining things for our partners Positive communication and being able to navigate challenging conversations The desire to talk about the relationship more frequently than our partners The potential of differences when you start a relationship as a therapist or whether you start prior to becoming a therapist Using our training to do what “successful couples” do What might be different if one were to approach dating or starting relationships later The challenge of not being able to talk about work at the end of the day (confidentiality) Specific parameters around how to talk about one’s day (process versus content) When partners aren’t part of our field, they don’t understand how our field works or what our job entails The difficulty of processing trauma, countertransference, empathy fatigue Gaps in the relationships with our partners related to partners not being able to process and handle challenging material The challenge of leaving work at work, being able to relate to other people at the end of the day The impact of the pandemic on childcare and balance of parenting and coparenting Therapist dissociation and self-care When our profession is overtaxed and we are overtaxed, our partners and kids can get pushed to the side What therapists’ partners might need to be successful in these relationships The lack of resources and resilience during the pandemic The difficulty those who are in relationships with therapists understanding that they are human and that we are not always able to cope. How our knowledge and resourcefulness can help with us taking care of ourselves and meeting the needs of our partners The gratitude and love that we can share with our partners when we see how things go wrong Our capacity to have challenging conversations to improve relationships Emotional intelligence and perspective, self-awareness Resources mentioned:We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!Our Facebook GroupRelevant Episodes: Dating as a Therapist Therapy with an Audience Off Duty Therapist Connect with us!Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021 Our consultation services:The Fifty-Minute HourCredits:Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/