

Cults to Consciousness
Shelise Ann Sola
Survivor stories of claiming independence after leaving high-control groups & people. Cults to Consciousness is a YouTube channel and podcast, hosted by Shelise Ann Sola (a former devout Mormon & CSA survivor) and her Producer husband, Jonathan Rosales. C2C delves into the nuanced experiences of individuals who have escaped a broad spectrum of high-control groups and coercive environments. They are not anti-religious but firmly anti-abuse, aiming to shed light on manipulative practices and systems, while promoting compassion, understanding, and accountability. C2C has attracted a kind and engaged community who thoughtfully support their guests. Follow to join them on their advocacy mission.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Jul 4, 2025 • 1h 4min
Cracking Open My "Prophet" Grandfather's Holy Book
Sami's grandfather, who lived with Schizophrenia, compiled a 2422 page book of holy scripture in a failed attempt to start his own religion. Heavily inspired by Mormonism, yet drawing from almost every religion, it's full of many surprises. We can't wait to crack it open with all of you and find out what's inside.
Click here to watch on YouTube
Watch the full interview with Sami and her father, Adrian, here
Sami’s go fund me to get the book digitized
Find Sami on social media:
www.youtube.com/@mildwestsami
IG: @mild_west_sami
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jul 3, 2025 • 35min
Reacting to Harmful Religious Indoctrination Cartoons with Owen Morgan Telltale
Watch the first half of this episode at @OwenMorganTelltale here
The youth have become more and more of a target since adults are leaving religions at an exponential rate. If they can indoctrinate them young enough, they just might have tithe paying members for life. Shelise and Owen Morgan from @owenmorgantelltale will be reacting to a Jehovah's Witness animated series called Caleb and Sophia and will discuss just how psychologically harmful they can be.
Find and Support Owen!
YouTube: @OwenMorganTelltale @owensfiresidechat @owenunfiltered @TelltaleReads
Watch a full interview with Owen Here
Watch Shelise on Owen's Channel Here
Resources: https://jwfacts.com/
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jul 2, 2025 • 2h 2min
8 Women from 8 Cults Compare Notes
Celebrating 200 episodes with these 7 other incredible women! We explore ways in which women are harmed, silenced and exploited within 8 different cults from their unique perspectives. The stories and wisdom were beautifully shared amongst survivors supporting each other. They also share ways in which they believe women can take back their power in or outside a cult and gain clarity and freedom.
Click here to watch on YouTube
FIND AND SUPPORT OUR GUESTS!
Daniella Mestyanek-Young: previous interviews
IG: @daniellamyoung_
TikTok: search #groupbehaviorgal
Website: https://www.uncultureyourself.com/
Amazon: "Uncultured: A Memoir"
Tia Levings: previous interview
Website and book: http://tialevings.com/book
IG: @tialevingswriter
https://substack.com/@tialevings
The Anti-Fundamentalist
Amanda Rae Grant: previous interviews
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@TheAmandaRaeGrant
IG: @amandaraegrant
Sarah Edmondson: Previous interview
Instagram: @SarahEdmondson @ALittleBitCulty
Website: https://alittlebitculty.com/
Website for book: https://www.sarahedmondson.com/book
Beatrice Weber: previous interviews
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/bweber
Website: https://beatriceweber.com/about/
Jasmin Faulk: previous interview
IG: @jasmin.faulk
Website: http://www.jasminfaulk.com/
Book: The Last Sandstorm
Podcast: I Want you to Meet
Jasper Hoffman: previous interview
Website: https://www.theplainpeoplespodcast.com
IG: @ThePlainPeoplesPodcast
@jasper.c.hoffman
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
00:00:00 Intro
00:03:01 How did your cult use fear to keep women passive and obident?
00:17:44 The various ways your cult used Information Control to keep you isolated and unaware of the world
00:48:26 What are the "rewards" in heaven for women in your cult?
01:19:35 What made you want to finally escape your cult?
01:45:35 Words of advice to those currently in a cult that want to leave
01:53:54 Linda, listen
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Jul 1, 2025 • 1h 2min
THE ORDER: “I’m a Direct Descendant of Jesus Christ” ft. Amanda Rae
"The Order" or the "Kingston Clan" is known for their incestuous practices of polygamy in an effort to keep their "bloodline pure". They are a fundamentalist branch of Mormonism in Salt Lake City, where marrying 1st cousins and even half siblings, is seen as perfectly fine. Amanda Rae @TheAmandaRaeGrant , who was raised in this group, escaped at 17 and was seen on the TV show "Escaping Polygamy" helping others to do the same. Amanda explains the Kingston Clan's fundamental belief system, their concept of "Numbered Men”, inbreeding within, how they bring in new women to mix up the gene pool, and why the cult believes they are descendants of Jesus Christ himself.
Click here to watch on YouTube
Find and support Amanda:
YouTube: @TheAmandaRaeGrant
IG: @amandaraegrant
If you or someone you love has left polygamy and needs assistance, please reach out to "Holding Out HELP" at 801-548-3492 or visit their website at www.holdingouthelp.org
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
Chapter Marks
00:00:00 Intro
00:02:52 The Kingston Clan's fundamental beliefs
00:05:48 "Numbered Men" explained
00:09:31 How The Order believes they are descendants of Jesus Christ
00:14:39 Inbreeding in The Order
00:20:19 Amanda explains how procreating is of the utmost importance in the order
00:30:45 Commenting on coming to terms with realizing things were wrong in The Order
00:33:14 Amanda shares her story on how she left The Order
00:36:45 Amanda explains how The Order brings in new women to mix up the gene pool
00:37:49 Racism in the order
00:52:06 Trying to apply critical thinking to the beliefs of the order
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Jul 1, 2025 • 50min
Kicked Out of "The Order" Incestuous Polygamous Cult for Being Gay
Forced to suppress who he really is, Val Snow escaped the cult that almost put him through conversion therapy, and is now living a fulfilled life. Ask him your questions!
Click here to watch on YouTube
Resource for those escaping polygamy: Holding Out Help
Check out our in depth interview with Val here
Val's youtube Channel
IG: @valiantunicorn
Get more of Val's story on Amanda Rae's channel
How Do People Get Brainwashed
Unicorn t-shirt: Version 1 Version 2
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jun 30, 2025 • 1h 13min
The Stigma of Men Speaking Out On Their CSA: “Children of God” Cult Survivor Opens Up
CW: CSA, SA, mentions of suicide…. Philip Seibel was born into the Children of God sex cult and survived many instances of CSA at the hands of his own parents. This was all part of the cult’s mentality “God is love and love is sex”. Our first episode together details his childhood and escape attempts. When he was able to get out successfully, he had no idea about the outside world. At the age of fifteen he ran away from his abusive parents and began to wander this world as a homeless street musician, learning how to survive.
Now Philip is an outspoken critic of the statutes of limitations for crimes against children. Currently he lives in Switzerland, proud father and author, singer, songwriter, artist, wearable designer and hobby sound technician
His books include The monsters that kiss you good night, The monsters that walk with me and his third book in this series currently in progress "No one speaks about the monsters"
Click here to watch on YouTube
Watch his first interview here
Find and Support Phil:
Website with his singles: https://www.philipseibel.com/singles
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Philip-Seibel
Books: The Monsters that Kiss You Goodnight
The Monsters that Walk With Me
A Broken Poet
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
Chapter Marks
00:00:00 Intro
00:04:42 Philip's childhood in COG
00:11:29 How Philip processes what happened to him
00:16:37 How Philip managed as a 15 year old runaway
00:16:55 CW: CSA
00:19:56 Philip recounts his CSA
00:21:32 CW: CSA - The reason Philip remembers is CSA so well
00:29:37 The consequences Philip's dealt with for telling his story
00:31:51 CW: Society desensitized to women's SA and not men's
00:34:56 CW: mentions of suic*de
00:38:43 Philip felt he couldn't open up about CSA he experienced while dating
00:42:37 What it was like writing his first book - Philip comments on the responses people get when disclosing their trauma
00:46:19 Philip's thoughts on whether continuing to speak out will further hinder his success
00:55:51 How Philip is doing now
00:57:11 Linda, Listen
01:02:49 Philip sings and plays Little Black Sheep on his guitar
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jun 27, 2025 • 1h 13min
Children of God: Inside the Mind of a Faceless Cult Leader
Within The Children of God, also known as The Family International, the members blindly followed the leader David Berg. They weren’t even allowed to know what he looked like. Only a select few were chosen to be in his presence and can tell the story of who “Grandpa” really was. He was a twisted man who married children, including our guest Serena Kelley who was only 3 years old. Serena is the only person left who is able to tell these stories. She explains what it was like being considered a “celebrity” in the group and how she had to mentally split herself and dissociate to survive.
Click here to watch on YouTube
Watch pt 1 of Serena’s interview here
Watch pt 2 of Serena’s interview here
Find Serena:
IG: @serkelley
Substack: https://substack.com/@serenakelley
YT: https://www.youtube.com/@serkelley
Website: https://serenakelley.com/
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jun 27, 2025 • 1h 25min
3 Year Old Bride to Cult Leader Speaks Out
CW: CSA, SA, Mentions of drug use- From the ages of 6 to 12, up to when the cult leader, Berg, died, Serena Kelley hid her identity. She was born as a chiId celebrity in the notorious The Children of God cult, known for their extreme abuse practices of polygamy, pedophilia, forced chiId marriages, religious prostitution, and chiId trafficking. Daughter to Sara Kelley— part of leadership, and writer of “The Davidito Book”(CSA manuscript)— when Serena left the compound she continued to lie about who she was. As she had been brainwashed to lie, it was hard for her to track when she should tell the truth, which created a warped sense of identity.
Serena describes how she worked her way back into the cult to retrieve a boy that she liked, what it was like escaping for a second time, and what it was like being out in the world, on her own, free to do whatever she wanted for the first time. Going from the sex cult to now a fully sexually charged environment in a club, she explains her methods at the time of processing the horrific things she went through as a child, involving numbing with drug use, and dancing away the trauma.
Serena also recounts what it was like when just months before his murder-suicide, an adult Ricky Rodriguez, whom “The Davidito Book" was written about, contacted her wanting to know where the author (her mother) was.
Serena reveals her journey with healing from the trauma, dealing with ill-equipped therapists, to ultimately finding plant medicine. Serena is now a writer and Trauma Recovery Specialist, helping others heal past traumas using methods to connect the mind, body, and soul to find peace and purpose in life.
Click here to watch on YouTube
Watch pt 1 of Serena’s interview
Serena dives further, answering your questions LIVE
Find Serena:
IG: @serkelley
Substack: https://substack.com/@serenakelley
YT: https://www.youtube.com/@serkelley
Website: https://serenakelley.com/
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
Chapter Marks
00:08:15 CW: CSA, ChiId Traff*cking, CA, the Moment Serena Knew She Wanted to Leave the Cult
00:11:55 CW: ChiId Marriage, Serena Rebelling & Engagement to Berg
00:24:02 CW: CSA, Serena Realizing How Much Better Things Were Outside the Cult
00:32:50 CW: SA, Serena Finds Freedom in the Club Scene
00:37:20 CW: SA, Serena Takes Positive Lessons About Her Worth from Her Negative Cult Programming
01:21:03 CW: CSA, SA, Closing Thoughts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jun 27, 2025 • 1h 23min
My Mother Wrote the Horrific CSA Handbook for Children of God Cult
CW: CSA, SA, ChiId Trafficking- David Brandt Berg, also known as King David, Dad, or Grandpa to followers, was the founder and leader of the cult generally known as the Children of God. In 1968 it began as a new religious movement focused on spreading the Christian message. As the decades progressed, the group targeted vulnerable people and devolved as a counter to purity culture in which Berg pushed the idea that God is love, and love is sex, therefore members should have sex with everyone. COG attracted the attention of the international media, and a British court case would find the group to be an authoritarian cult which engaged in the systematic physical and sexual abuse of children, resulting in lasting trauma among survivors.
Today’s guest, Serena Kelley, was born and raised in the cult, and along with her mother, Sara, were two of the select few people in David Berg’s inner circle. When Ricky Rodriguez (another chiId within the cult) was ten months old, Berg asked Sara, one of Ricky's nannies, to start creating a document titled "The Davidito Book" (also referred to as "The Story of Davidito"). The book contains descriptions of adults CSA-ing Rodriguez, describing this ab*se in a "celebratory" tone. Serena’s mother would end up writing the horrific CSA handbook for the Children of God Cult, and was even proud of the fact, becoming known as “Sara Davidito”.
Serena recounts what it was like growing up in the cult, alongside her brainwashed mother, facing constant mental, physical and sexual abuse, while being forced to appear in CSA videos, and how at the age of 3, Serena was “given” to Berg as a chiId bride and told she was going to be his forever.
Click here to watch on YouTube
Watch pt 2 of Serena’s interview
Serena dives further, answering your questions LIVE
Find Serena:
IG: @serkelley
Substack: https://substack.com/@serenakelley
YT: https://www.youtube.com/@serkelley
Website: https://serenakelley.com/
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.**
Chapter Marks
00:10:45 CW: CSA, Serena Explains Children of God CSA Origins & Practices
00:15:26 CW: CSA, Serena Shares her mother's involvement with creating a CSA Manuscript
00:20:00 CW: CSA, SA, Serena Shares Her Earliest Memories in the Children of God Cult
00:26:53 CW: CA, CSA, Serena Shares About Constant Fear and Her Engagement as a Toddler
00:32:09 CW: SA, CSA, Homophob*a, The Children of God's Bizzarre S*xual Practices & Beliefs
00:36:07 CW: Incest, CSA, C recordings, Serena Shares about Cover-Ups and Beginning to Doubt
00:40:36 CW: CA, ChiId Traff*cking, Serena Shares About Her Time in the Japan Commune
00:48:32 CW: ChiId Traff*cking , Serena Talks about the Fear Tactics Used and Being Traff*cked
00:51:42 CW: CSA, Serena's Transition from Japan to Brazil
00:55:23 CW: CA, Serena Shares About Her "Celebrity Status" and Being Trained to Lie
01:02:52 CW: CA, Bullying, Berg's Death & Cult Leadership Makes Serena's Identity Public
01:10:59 CW: CSA, The Cult's New "Rules" About S*x
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jun 26, 2025 • 59min
Colombian Woman Sues TIM BALLARD for Entrapment and Portrayal as Child Trafficker
Ryan Fisher, former confidant of Tim Ballard (founder of Operation Underground Railroad), is a key witness in the latest Kely Suarez case. She is suing Tim for her portrayal as a child traff*cker in the controversial “Sound of Freedom” film. With the case just a few weeks away, Ryan opens up about his experience working closely with Tim, as well as the details of the case in which he’ll be a witness in.
Click here to watch on YouTube
For the latest in all Tim Ballard and OUR breaking news, follow Carah Burrell and Ryan Fisher on the @CarahBurrell Youtube channel!
Follow and Support Carah!
YouTube: @carrahburrell
YouTube: @carrahburrell
Instagram: @nuancehoe
Tiktok: @nuancehoe
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/nuancehoe
We want to meet you in real life! Come adventure with us on our 2nd C2C VACATION! Click here to go to the official booking page
Subscribe to our C2C "CLIPS" Channel!
Support C2C - Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast.
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
Co Producer / Host @jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
**Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.** Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.


