Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

In this episode, host Victoria Guido talks with Jessica Wallace, the CEO of Flok22, an innovative app designed to enhance real-time social networking. Victoria delves into Jessica's unique journey from her roots as a hairdresser to becoming a tech entrepreneur. They explore how Jessica's personal experiences and challenges, including being a military wife and navigating life post-divorce with three children, fueled her drive to create Flok22. Jessica's desire to connect people in real-time, especially in the post-COVID era, led to the birth of this groundbreaking app. Victoria and Jessica discuss their mutual passion for music, revealing how their hobbies provide a creative outlet from the demanding world of startups. Jessica shares her aspirations to return to playing the drums, a skill inspired by her family's musical background, and her journey in learning the instrument during the pandemic. On technology and entrepreneurship, Jessica dives into the challenges and triumphs of developing and marketing Flok22. She reflects on the importance of networking, particularly in the startup community, and how her app addresses the inefficiencies and awkwardness often encountered at networking events. Victoria and Jessica discuss the evolution of Flok22, emphasizing its focus on enhancing in-person connections and its pivot towards a more event-centric approach, as well as the future of networking, the potential of Flok22, and their shared enthusiasm for making meaningful connections, both professionally and musically. Flok22 Follow Flok22 on Facebook, Linkedin, or Instagram. Follow Jessica Wallace on LinkedIn. Follow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn. Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jessica Wallace, CEO of Flok22, the app that helps you make friends and grow your network in real-time situations. Jessica, thank you for joining us. JESSICA: Thank you for having me. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, just to get us started and warm up here, Jessica, is there any new skill or any skill you've come back to to practice more recently to kind of take your mind off of all the founder stuff that's happening? JESSICA: Yeah. It's been a busy past two months of events and things like that. So, I've kind of been taking a little bit of downtime. I am hoping to start practicing the drums. I play those, and I haven't been doing that in a while. They've been kind of staring me down, so... VICTORIA: So, were you a drummer before? Were you in a band, or? JESSICA: No, never was in a band. Actually, my dad and my uncle were drummers in a band. And as a kid, I would kind of pick up the drumsticks. And I remember my uncle kind of saying like, "Hey, is that Jessica down there?" Because I would sound like I was playing [laughs] something. Yeah, it took me a while to get into it. But during COVID, I picked it up and started practicing. VICTORIA: I love that. So, do you have a whole drum set at home, or do you have one of those, like, electric? JESSICA: I have both. I have the electric one, which I think I'm going to kind of get out and mess with. But I have an actual full drum set. It's like a TAMA light blue little set. VICTORIA: That's so fun. I like playing the drums, but I never made the leap to actually own my own drum set. So, whenever my friends have it, though, I can play, like, maybe one or two beats on [laughs] it. Nothing that impressive, but yeah, it's a lot of fun. JESSICA: Do you play any other instruments? VICTORIA: Yeah, I've always...I played piano when I was younger, and then clarinet and bass guitar through, like, middle school and high school. I did have a band in college. We played two shows, and they were both at my house, which was a lot of fun. JESSICA: [laughs] VICTORIA: I had kind of stopped playing music, and then when COVID happened, it was like, well [laughs], I guess I need to find another hobby again. So, I picked up piano again. And now I've been playing keyboard and trying to sing at the same time, which has been entertaining for everyone in my household, so...[laughs] JESSICA: Very cool. Too bad we didn't, like, catch up during COVID time. We could have started a band. VICTORIA: Yes. Yeah. I'm trying to think of a way to get more disciplined about practicing, actually, because that's...I know people who practice for, like, three hours a day every day. And I'm just like, how do you make yourself sit there for that long [laughs]? JESSICA: That's definitely been the challenge with me. And then, of course, being in a startup, and then, you know, that kind of got put on the backburner, but I hope to pick it up. VICTORIA: Yeah, right? So, we met at San Diego Startup Week, which was a fantastic event here in San Diego; a different location every night and, different speakers, and all of these really interesting people to meet. So, why don't you tell me a little bit about what brought you to San Diego Startup Week? JESSICA: Well, first things first is being a startup here in San Diego, so that made me go. And I knew it's very important, the more I'm realizing, to build your network and connect with people, and especially just within the community, getting yourself out there to be known, talking to other companies, even just showing your support to other startups. It's such an important thing to do. VICTORIA: And your app, Flok22, specifically, solves some problems people might have with going to an event like that and trying to make friends and network with people. So, can you tell me a little bit more about the initial problem you had when you just came up with the idea for the app? JESSICA: So, the initial problem was kind of around COVID time when everything opened back up. And there was this plethora of meetup apps that everybody was on trying to make these connections. And I would start to go out with friends, and as I'm looking around, it was that weird, awkward time where you couldn't talk to anybody you didn't come with. And I would literally see people, including my friends, swiping on matching apps while they were sitting at the table, but nobody was talking to one another. And that's when I realized we needed something that was more venue-based, where it was like, hey, I'm here. I'm out. Let me see who's available to connect. And that's where the concept came about. And then, during a lot of these networking events, I started to realize the same thing. It was people trying to network, and we're still doing the old-school name tags and signing our name on a paper. And it would just be so much more easier to have everybody on that one platform to connect with a little bit more effective and efficiently. VICTORIA: And so, how long has it been since you had this idea and you've been in this journey with Flok22? JESSICA: Well, it's been a little over two years. Right around COVID is when I got the idea. I was a hairdresser for, like, 20-plus years and wasn't working and at home with my three kids. And the idea just was kind of pricking at me. And it took me a while to try and figure out, you know, how can I do this? How can I, with no funds, you know, newly divorced, three kids, how am I going to start an app? And I just kept pushing on trying to connect with the right people and build a product. VICTORIA: I love that. What inspired you? Like, you had this idea for an app. And you're like, you know what? I'm going to make it work. Like, what kept you going? What made you think this is a thing I can put my time and energy into and be successful? JESSICA: You know, there's a lot of factors. I feel like it's just one of those things where you kind of just...you know how you just get that instinct and idea, and you're like, I just can't let it go? And I remember hitting a low point because I had tried to call different development teams. I had tried to do it on my own. And I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. And I was literally walking on a treadmill, and a friend gave me this YouTube thing to listen to, and it was Les Brown. And he was talking about if you were on your deathbed, you know, these ideas and these dreams, they're just staring you with angry eyes because they came to you for life. And it, like, hit me, like, very intensely to where I was like, I have to do this. I can't just look back in my life and be like, I had this idea. I know somebody's going to do it because everybody would be like, "This is a great idea." So, it's just a matter of you just got to keep going. VICTORIA: Well, I'm glad that you're working on this because I can totally relate to that experience of, you know, for me, I came from Washington, D.C., and moved to San Diego. When I was in D.C., I had spent years in the meetup community and organizing meetups. And so, it got to the point where anytime I went to a meetup, I would know at least one person there. And now coming to San Diego, like, starting it all over again, was very daunting. And, like, walking into...what was it? San Diego tech event where there's, like, 100 people in this beautiful Balboa Park location and just being so nervous [laughs]. I'm like, who do I talk to? Like, how do I get started? And you immediately think I should just leave and go home [laughs]. But let me get a glass of Chardonnay and go over to the craft makers table and make some art and then I'll, like, feel a little bit better. So yeah, I'm curious, like, so you had this great idea. Like, you knew you wanted to put your effort into it. As you started going through the process of figuring out how to get started or how to find that market fit, was there anything that surprised you in your early stages that made you pivot into a new direction? JESSICA: Well, I would say just, like, hearing your story, so many of us have been in that boat. I used to be a military wife, so I was always picking up and moving. And the older we get, it's hard to build and start up your network again. And I see a lot of people posting on Facebook or, you know, Instagram, and they're, like, putting their profile out there trying to make friends. So, there's definitely a need for it. Originally, I wanted it more for the social aspect, which was coffee shops, bars, restaurants, being able to just check in and see who's there that is open to connect. One thing we did kind of start to realize is a lot of people, even though they want to make those connections, people are still nervous to claim that they're trying to, like, make a friend. So, the biggest thing that we learned in the product-market fit was people were more inclined to use it for networking. They felt a little bit more secure and safer that way. So, I would say that would be a thing that we kind of picked up on. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. Because when I'm going to networking, like, of course, I would love to find leads for people who need consulting work from thoughtbot or software development or platform engineering. But if you go in with that intention, it's disingenuous, and it's not very effective. Whereas if you go into a networking event with the intention to make friends and just to learn about people and to find common interest, it's, like, indirectly aiming at your target is the best way to actually get there [laughs]. So, it makes sense. And so, you pivoted into more events and networking. Has there been anything that you've found about that experience or that group of people that's surprised you, or? JESSICA: I do feel like the social side will pick up on it. I just think it's going to take a little bit more time. But with the networking, I wasn't really doing any of that until I got into this startup. So, I didn't even see the need for it until I got in there. And then here I am, you know, going to a table, trying to find my name tag, and everything's still very much old school when it comes to that. And so, that was what surprised me is just was, like, this would be perfect. Everybody's trying to exchange their LinkedIns. Everybody is trying to find the right person. And sometimes you get stuck in a conversation with somebody for 20 minutes, and it's some sales guy from who knows where, and you're just like, uh, I'm not really looking for that. You know what I mean? Great to connect, but got to go. So, it's so much better to just find the right people that you're looking for and network more efficiently. VICTORIA: Yeah, I don't know if this is that exact experience, but what I've kind of heard from other founders is sometimes you go to a networking event, and maybe you're looking for, like, mentors or people to help you or your own [inaudible 10:09]. And then there's more people trying to sell things to you [laughs] than there are, like, those actual people you're looking for who would help you. So, that's really interesting. So, now you've started to kind of really get involved in the networking. And I'm curious: how many events have you gone to so far this year? Do you have a rough estimate? JESSICA: I'm, like, trying to think. It's, like, such a blur because I really have been going to so many. And also, I've been a part of the SDAC E-track, which is the Angel Conference, San Diego Angel Conference that's coming up. So, we're hoping to get accepted in that. I'm going to say, at least this month, probably 12, I would suspect. VICTORIA: Wait, 12 this month? JESSICA: I think so, yeah. And some of them have been little ones. Like, I've done some happy hour events. There's these really cool, like, social happy hour events I've been trying to kind of partner up with. So, definitely some smaller ones, and then some bigger ones, and then including my E-track. So, that's kind of the calculation I have. VICTORIA: Wow, I mean, there's only been 15 days so far this month, so 13 events that's quite a lot [laughs]. I hope you do get some time to rest and play the drums later this month. But that's really exciting. So, I'm curious: as a founder, obviously, you have an event space networking app. But have you found other benefits from growing your network as an early-stage founder? JESSICA: Definitely. The biggest impact is connecting with these people. And whether you read that book, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad," they say, you know, "Poor people look for work, and rich people build networks." And it's true because I'm noticing that for myself. You get around these people, and most of the time, they really do want to help, or you just need to have the ask, you know, ask what you're looking for. And they're more than willing to set you up with other people to get partnerships. I ended up meeting somebody at the MIC Conference, which was in Vegas last month. And they connected me with somebody who now we are going to be partnering with them to have our app be used at their conference. So, it's as simple as that, just once you're in front of them and you get that more personal touch, and then they kind of refer you to other people. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And how does your app compare to the existing apps that are out there for networking at events or for managing attendees at events? JESSICA: Well, currently, there's not anything that's doing it in real-time. There is some conference events they have, like Cvent, Whova app. Personally, to me, it was just there's so much going on. You have the event, you know, vendors. You have the schedule. You have so much going on. And for us, our main thing is just connecting you to the right person. So, it's a more simplistic version of just being able to simply check in, see the profiles of the people that are there, see what it is that you're looking for, and know that you want to connect with them. Also, the other feature that we have is allowing you to see anybody that you may have missed when you leave. So, you can kind of easily filter through those profiles and decide who to reach out to. I mean, similar to maybe, like, a meetup, but it's more just on demand. There quite hasn't been anything that's doing it right instantaneously. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I can agree. I've used some of those apps before. And what I've noticed there's just not a ton of activity or user activity on the day of. And I'm curious to see...I really want to try out Flok, too. I know I'm like [laughs], I haven't had a chance to actually get in there yet, but it is on my to-do list. So, I'm curious, you know, as someone who didn't have a background in technology or building applications, like, how did you go about getting up to speed and finding the people you needed to help you actually build the app? JESSICA: Yeah, I mean, being a hairstylist, I was not tech at all. So, it's pretty interesting that here I am, you know, in this app development world. The main thing was just getting out there. I knew I had already been on so many apps just, whether it was some of the dating apps, meetup apps, so I knew how they operated and what I was looking for as a customer that I wanted to fix. Most of the time, it was heavily with all these pictures, and prompts, and things like that, and I would get bored of setting it up. It would take me, like, you know, 30-plus minutes. Not to mention, I call it, like, adding people to your cart. It's just very impersonal. You got so many people just piling people to their cart. You might talk to them for a little bit, then stop. And I think people are just kind of getting over it. It's time-consuming. It's a lot of time and planning, and sometimes you plan something and then...even with the girls meeting a friend, it's like they plan something for Thursday, and somebody cancels, and then you're SOL, you know? VICTORIA: Oh yeah. So, you had experience with using different apps for, like, networking or meeting people and making friends, and you saw that there was this gap. And then, how did you go to actually building the app? And were there any lessons that you learned in that process? JESSICA: That was my experience and why I was doing that. The main thing I did after that was I started hitting up events to find and recruit. That was how I started finding...I met my co-founder through a mutual friend. She's been wonderful. She's, like, complete opposite of me. She's, like, the business-organized one. Like, hey, we need an LLC. We need this. We need that. I'm more just the idea and brains and kind of behind the scenes. Then I started going to some tech events, met our UI UX designer, Laura, who's been fantastic. So, that would be my advice to people. If you're looking to build and you're trying to find the right people, of course, LinkedIn could be a good spot. Y Combinator could be a good spot. For me, I think going out there and actually making the personal connections and meeting the people and ask them and find what you're looking for. VICTORIA: And you could now even use Flok22 to find your early founder team [laughs]. JESSICA: Exactly. See? VICTORIA: That's awesome. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: So, you went out, and you just met people, and you had this compelling vision of what you wanted to build and were able to recruit them onto your team. Was there anything...you know, you've been at this for two years now. Through the development process, was there anything you learned about what to do or what not to do in how you engage with your designers and developers? JESSICA: You know, it's like, we dove out there, like, headfirst. And then there was a period of time where we needed to pause and re-calibrate, and that was due to the fact that you have to be very diligent in looking for development if you're outsourcing. If you know a CTO or you have somebody in-house that, you know, you're working with, you may not have the problems that we ran into. But with outsourcing, there's still very much a gray area. And we ended up getting a product that was not really functional and had a lot of issues, which caused a huge setback for us. It was a great, you know, lesson learned if that. But you have to be really particular on who you're finding. I would suggest heavily on finding somebody that is a referral from somebody that you know, as a matter of fact, that they use. Because nowadays, there's times that they can almost, like, fake what they have. I mean, they might have references. They'll put stuff up on their website showcasing products that they did, and those aren't even products that they did. So, we ran into a huge deal with that. But it made us take a step back. We re-honed in on our user persona, had our UI UX designer redesign everything, and came back out here again. VICTORIA: Yes, because people will let you pay them to build anything [laughs]. JESSICA: Oh yeah. VICTORIA: But it may not be exactly what you wanted. And what you said, going with someone who is a referral, going with someone who, I think, clearly demonstrates that they need to understand the underlying issue, as opposed to just being willing to take whatever requirements you have and build it. That's a big differentiator for companies. And it can be frustrating because I think, you know, for thoughtbot, sometimes people come to us, and they're like, "We already have the designs. We already know what we want. You just build it for us." And we [inaudible 19:21], like, coach them around that. Like, are you sure? Like, let's look at your market validation, and let's look at your product fit. And, you know, let's go back and make sure that we're all aligned and that you're actually getting value out of something, and showing you the results on a regular basis, as opposed to it'll be done in three months, and you just wait until then. Sometimes, that can be $150,000 later, and, at the end, you're not actually getting a product that you really wanted. JESSICA: Exactly. And like I said, there's still a big, gray area in that where, you know, you can be given a product, and it's not even barely working, or it looks like garbage. And you're kind of stuck because trying to go after these people to get your money back it's most likely not going to happen. And then you just lost out on all that money you put into that product. So, it can be very frustrating for people. I hope to eventually kind of shed light on that and maybe help people along the way, so they don't fall trap to those type of kind of scammers that are out there for development. And I'm sure you, being CTO, you've seen a lot of that [chuckles]. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's something we work really hard to kind of coach clients around and figure out to make sure because we don't want to end in that situation where our founder feels like we built something for them that doesn't work or doesn't look great, or what they're happy with [chuckles]. So yeah, I think it's very common. It happens to a lot of people. But I'm happy that you didn't get discouraged and you said, you know what? We can go for round two. Let's take what we learned and put it into the next version of the app. And one of my favorite phrases from doing this podcast that I've heard is, "If the first product you build if you're proud of it, you didn't do it fast enough" [laughs]. So, like, usually, the first thing you build is not pretty, but you had to push through and build something. And that's the first application you've ever built. So, how did you feel about the second time going around? What did you do differently to be happier with and prouder of the product version that you put out there? JESSICA: Yeah, I like that phrase, too, and sometimes I'm the same. It's kind of like, you know, fail fast and get out there. But the second build was definitely so much more smoother and better. But, actually, we are in transition to a newer, bigger development team because there's still some things that we're just not completely set on. And I do think that moving along to this next development team, there's a more better fit. And then, we also received a grant from AWS to build a better back-end infrastructure, so when we do scale up, and there is more people on there, that it can withhold that capacity. So, I'm definitely happy with it right now. And I know that getting it out there—and you know this, too—is just getting it out there with all the users, you know, there may be some different feedback coming in and out. We plan on, you know, making any changes necessary if need be, and just kind of always making it a little better each time. VICTORIA: Is that the AWS Activate program? JESSICA: It's not the Activate, but it's just we're actually working with a company, and it was AWS. They had filled everything out for us, you know, they want to help startups getting out into the app world because, again, if we're making money, they're making money, too, with it being on their servers. So, it's kind of a win-win. And we can store all of that data and be able to scale up properly. VICTORIA: Absolutely, yeah. And so, for those who don't know, the AWS Activate program, you can apply for up to $100,000 in free credits, and other cloud providers have similar programs where you can get free money [chuckles]. But, no, that's really cool that you're a part of that. So, what challenges do you see on the horizon for Flok22? JESSICA: Of course, I hope there's going to be none, but we know in this entrepreneurial world, it's always there. I think, you know, the hard part are always going to be kind of those situations where maybe people aren't using the app properly or things of that sort happening. Other app companies have dealt with that. It's like, you could be out somewhere, and a situation happens. So, that's kind of the only thing that I would be worried about is just ensuring the safety of all of our users, making sure that everybody is understanding. And I guess when that time comes and if there are things that, you know, come at you, it's just a matter of handling it. So, I hope it's not anything too heavy, but I guess we'll see. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having that concern early on. Because I do feel like sometimes people create apps for networking and collaboration without thinking about the safety of their users. And it's more common from founders who have never been in a situation where they're unsafe [laughs]. So, like, maybe from your unique perspective, you, like, know that that is an issue that you might need to solve or that will come up, and having a plan for it makes sense. JESSICA: We definitely have a plan for it. I mean, a lot of people don't realize with these apps that are out there, there's actually been a pretty high increase in, like, sex trafficking and different things. And most people don't know that because they're not the ones going in there and doing the market research. So, our main thing is getting people out there to meet in public places, which is much safer. You're not, you know, getting lured and unsure if that's even the person who that they say they are, or you're going to someone's house or on a hike. It just makes it for a much safer environment. And then we're working on some other added features where, you know, you can kind of validate the people just to ensure that. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going and keeps you excited about working on this? JESSICA: It's my passion. It's kind of like now; this has been my baby for a couple of years. So, of course, my family is always number one. I have three kids, a rat, two dogs, and a lizard. I adore my family, but I just have a passion for this. And I know that it's just a matter of time before this becomes a thing. And so, I just push myself on the daily trying to figure out the solutions and just keep moving forward with it. VICTORIA: And what does success look like in six months, or even beyond that, in five years? JESSICA: I think, for us, it will just be getting that heavy adoption of users, getting known out here in San Diego or in other parts. We plan on trying to hit more of the major cities where you got a lot of newcomers coming in and traveling, whether that's Chicago, New York, Miami, Vegas. As we get that adoption, just growing as a company and see where it goes from there. VICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, I look forward to when I can go to a conference and just identify who are all the rock climbers in the room, and I can go bug and talk about [laughs], like, climbing with. I love that. JESSICA: And, two, going to these conferences, also, not only your...you get to connect with the people that are there, but it's the people in the surrounding city, too. It's like a lot of people leave the conference, and they want to go to a bar or a coffee shop. And the fact that you have the option or opportunity to connect with the people who are there as well is a win-win. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And do you have any questions for me about thoughtbot, or the podcast, or anything like that? JESSICA: For me, you being, like, a CTO, I know you've maybe...have you seen apps like this become successful? I would love your take on kind of getting out there in the market for something like this because we are at that stage where we're trying to hit the market pretty heavily. We're hitting college campuses, you know, bigger conferences, trying to get that adoption in small clusters for it to be, you know, fun and usable for users. But I would love your take on that. VICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, I'm a managing director. Our CTO is Joe Ferris, who's currently my acting dev director for my team. But from my experience, you know, there might be a lot of competing apps who try to aim for similar things. But if you're very closely understanding your users and their needs and focusing on solving their problems, then you will find your niche, and you'll be able to be successful and grow that from there. So, if you have a strong vision for what the problem is and you're willing to actually listen to your users and pivot based off of that, that will set you up to be successful. Yeah, and I've talked about this with other friends who are really into networking and meeting up with people. And there continues to be this gap of, like, how people communicate and how we actually connect. So, I think you're on the right track [chuckles], and you're doing a lot of great things. And I think the only other advice I would say is what you've already kind of pointed out is to make sure you're not burning out early on and that you're taking that time and space to be with your family and to do your hobbies, and having a strong rest ethic as you do a work ethic and making sure you're still a whole person. And you'll make better decisions if you're giving your brain a little bit of downtime. JESSICA: Definitely. I so agree with you. That's very important to have that balance. And we just hope that we can fill that gap when it comes to the networking. So, I hope that everyone can give it a try and see what they think. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? JESSICA: I mean, honestly, this is not so much about me. I'm really passionate about this app and networking and connecting people together and getting it, so it's just more easy for everybody to connect out in person without wasting that time and energy. Just be out doing you and meet the right people. That's what Flok22 is all about. VICTORIA: I love that. And we'll have to get together and play some music. I'll tell you the two songs I have memorized on piano right now are Kiss from a Rose by Seal and Someone Like You by Adele, so...[laughs] JESSICA: Oooh. VICTORIA: But we do have a bit of a girls' band going in San Diego, so we'll connect on that, too [laughs]. JESSICA: Yeah, we'll have to link up. Add some drums to your... VICTORIA: We don't have a drummer, so that's perfect, yeah [laughs]. JESSICA: See? It's networking at its best [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yes, yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate hearing your story. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devopsSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

If you missed the other episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can listen to Josh's first episode, his second, an his third to catch up. Josh Herzig-Marx, founder of Knect, discusses the latest developments in his startup journey since his last appearance on the show. He emphasizes the program's value in helping founders like himself refine ideas and strategies. He particularly notes the program's effectiveness in addressing challenges unique to startups, such as managing professional networks and dealing with the rapid growth of online presence. The conversation also delves into AI's technical aspects and potential applications and the practicalities and ethical considerations of using it in professional networking. Josh and Jordyn explore various AI use cases, distinguishing between beneficial applications and those they deem undesirable. Transcript: LINDSEY: We are back for our Incubator update with Josh Herzig-Marx and his startup, Knect. I'm Lindsey Christensen. I do marketing things at thoughtbot. We are also joined by Jordyn Bonds, who runs our incubator and does product strategy for thoughtbot. And today, we're going to be catching up with Josh and learn what's new since last we checked in. But before we get to that, we have an exciting incubator update: our application window has just reopened. JORDYN: Yes. LINDSEY: You could be the next Josh. JORDYN: You could. JOSH: Don't be me. You should join the incubator. [laughter] JORDYN: Go to thoughtbot.com/incubator and apply. It's just that easy. The application doesn't take long, even though it's in Typeform, and we have gotten some feedback, including from Josh, that it's challenging to plan your application efforts because, as you all probably know, Typeform just gives you one question at a time. So, sorry, maybe we'll update that. But it won't take you very long. It's a pretty brief application. And we are looking for pre-product folks, so you don't have to have a lot. Don't worry about what you do or don't have. Just apply. LINDSEY: Pre-product founder trying to figure out, is this problem worth solving? Who is it for? Jordyn and the team can help you out. thoughtbot.com/incubator. JOSH: And me. LINDSEY: And Josh. JOSH: And if, for some reason, you want to ask somebody about the program who isn't directly affiliated with thoughtbot, you should reach out to me. I'd be happy to talk about my experience. LINDSEY: You should. JOSH: I'd be happy to tell you what I think would be some reasons to join and some reasons that it might not be a good fit for you. And I'd be happy to chat about any of those things. It'd be my pleasure, in fact. LINDSEY: That is a great offer. JORDYN: It is a great offer. You all should take Josh up on that offer. He is an excellent sounding board and mentor. And additionally, if you get into the incubator, you'll just be in a Slack channel with Josh for the rest of time, inside of thoughtbot's Slack. So, that's another [crosstalk 02:05] JOSH: Statistically, there's a good chance you already are. [laughter] JORDYN: You mean in a slack with you. That's true. Josh is in a lot of Slacks, not [crosstalk 02:14]. LINDSEY: Yeah. Once you go through the incubator, you're family for life. JORDYN: You're family. You're here. You're with us. You can't get rid of us. LINDSEY: And you're able to hit us up with the questions, talk to the other founders, so that's another great benefit of participating. All right, but topic of the hour, Josh, hey, how are you? How you doing? JOSH: Lindsey, I am floating right now. We had our end of incubator session last official meeting. And we reviewed how we started, what we hope to accomplish, what we actually did accomplish, and next steps, and it feels really awesome. LINDSEY: It does. That's so great to hear. And can you, at the top here, maybe remind folks who haven't listened before, you know, what was that beginning point that you came in the incubator or the problem that you were looking to solve? JOSH: So, I had this Josh problem, which is that I am overwhelmed by the number of places that I am online and by the rapid increase in my professional network, professional social network, I guess you could say, but in my professional network, you know, see that comment a few minutes ago about how we're probably already in multiple Slacks together, whoever you happen to be online. Plus, if you're on LinkedIn, we're probably at least secondary connections on LinkedIn. Like, there's an awful lot of people, and it's growing really, really fast. And as somebody with a whopping case of ADD, which just feels like making an excuse, as somebody in, like, this modern world, I was feeling overwhelmed, and I felt like I was dropping the ball. And my problem was somebody must have a solution to this. I cannot be the only one. I could not find a solution myself. And I thought, well, maybe if there is no existing solution, maybe we should just go ahead and build it. And that was the genesis of my application to the thoughtbot incubator, which was that even though I've done this once before, I had never done this alone. I don't want to do this alone. And I thought that, you know, because of my experience with thoughtbot in the past and my understanding of, like, thoughtbot's unique organizational skills and capacities, this would be a particularly good fit for the thing that I wanted to figure out. And when I say figure it out, there was really four things I was hoping to get from this program. Let's see if I can remember them all in order. Number one, is this a Josh problem, or is this a broader problem affecting more people? Number two, this is, like, a ladder of problems, right? Like a cascading set. Number two thing I was trying to figure out: if this isn't just a Josh problem, is there at least one identifiable and addressable set of people who think about this problem in a similar way with whom I could engage? Number three, if there is such a group, are they willing, ready, and able to, like, spend money on solving this problem? And then number four, which I guess is kind of orthogonal to the other ones, it's kind of alongside, is this thing to solve even technically feasible, right? Because you can have this, like, amazing opportunity, but you just can't build it. And, you know, is this a thing that we could build or that I could get built within the resources that I might have? And I came in with some hypotheses, with some ideas. It's not like I had never done any research in this at all. But coming out of it, we have four pretty good answers. And I would not have been able to reach those answers with the same level of confidence, certainly not within eight weeks, if I hadn't gone through the incubator, and it's a really nice way to end the year. LINDSEY: With a bow on it. The last time we talked, you had narrowed in, I think, on your starting target market. And you had also recently introduced a prototype into the mix. How has the prototype evolved? JOSH: It's...and this is going to be no surprise to either of you or anybody who's listening. But, like, the difference between, like, talking about something in the abstract and actually having, like, a thing in your hand is night and day. So, the prototype actually evolved pretty rapidly. You know, it allowed us to try using it, like, to put on our own empathetic user analog hats and try it ourselves and be like, "Well, this doesn't quite make sense." This doesn't actually flow right. And it allowed us to show it to a lot of people. I'll say, we are, by far, our own strongest critics, which is good. Mostly, when we showed it to people, people are like, "This is amazing." And they would ask us, like, really specific, weird questions like, "Where's, you know, your about page? Could I see your privacy policy?" which is, like, a really, really good thing to hear. Because if the only thing...one way to interpret that is the only thing keeping them from maybe, like, diving in and using it right now, besides it doesn't actually exist as a product, is, like, some questions around privacy because it seems maybe too good to be true. Like, that's a pretty good buy sign. You know, we were expecting, like, "The screen makes no sense. Why are we swiping here? Where does this data come from? Is this really complete?" They're like, "No, I'm pretty much ready to go." So, that was good, helpful feedback, though we evolved it ourselves a lot internally. It's really nice having a thing. Do we use the term Pinocchio prototype or Pinocchio test [crosstalk 06:58]? LINDSEY: Yes, I did hear that. JOSH: Yeah, I like that. If this was like, you know, this wooden toy wanted to be a real boy, like, two weeks ago, it really, really wants...I don't know, Lindsey, we should, you know, get you in front of it. You're going to be like, "Why can't I use this today?" [laughter] JORDYN: That's definitely what we're hearing from people. JOSH: And my answer would be, "Well, you can't, but maybe in a couple of weeks." [laughs] JORDYN: Yeah, exactly. I will say I want to say for anyone listening in, though, that that was not, getting to what Josh just described where folks weren't really...they didn't have any hang-ups about the functionality or the value prop. They were basically just like, "What's your privacy policy? And when is it going to be ready for me to use?" It's not like the first draft of this prototype that was what we jumped to. I want to be clear. The first time we showed someone, there was this interesting problem, which is that we were still talking to the wrong people, somewhat. And the prototype hadn't evolved to be the slam dunk that it is now. So, at first, it was like, we'd have these kinds of muddled conversations where people were like, "Well, I don't really understand what this is supposed to be, and I'm not sure about that. And this seems interesting," but then their interpretation of what that thing was would be, like, wildly off from what it was intended to be. I just want to make it clear: this was work and effort. And the team did a really great job of iterating quickly based on, like, every time we talked to someone and showed it to them, we'd come back and say, "Here's what I heard." And it really pushed our thinking forward. Like Josh said, like, we are our toughest critics, so, like, every new version unlocked some new insights in ourselves about what it was we were actually driving toward. Really, just there's nothing like having a thing to look at and bang on to, like, clarify your thinking. LINDSEY: There's nothing like having a thing. Jordyn, you touched on you were talking to the wrong people, maybe. How has that exploration of the core market evolved? Is it still the startup enthusiasts? Are you even more narrow in that? What are the updates there as our chief market focus get everyone thinking about this all the time, officer? JORDYN: Yes. So, you know, startup enthusiasts is still the umbrella. What you're looking for with this is that you can guarantee pretty much every time you talk to someone in a segment or a sub-segment you will know how the conversation is going to go. And we've gotten there with two sub-segments of startup enthusiasts, which is repeat founders, key, key kind of nuance there. Founders, sure, but repeat founders really have this problem, for reasons we could talk about, and then chiefs of staff at startups, which is a relatively new role that's sort of emerged over the last sort of several years. But those folks are really the people that you ask them about this pain point, and they immediately are, like, yes. They use the same words to talk about the pain point. That's another really strong signal. When folks are using the same vocabulary, and they say the same sentences in the same order, and you start to feel a little bit creeped out, like, you're like, "Did you see these questions before I...? What? Did someone pay you to say that?" is, like, how you start to feel [laughs] [crosstalk 09:59] LINDSEY: Also, a marketer's dream. Oh my gosh, here comes the messaging, right? JORDYN: Exactly. LINDSEY: [inaudible 10:04] JORDYN: It feels like a cheat code because you just get to reflect their language back to them. You don't have to write copy. They wrote the copy. You just show them it, and they're like, yes. And everyone's like, "Yes," and it works. LINDSEY: Any thoughts to add to that, Josh? JOSH: It's really good. I would say the bummer or the good thing about this point is we're getting diminishing returns from testing everything other than the actual product, which is good that we got there in eight weeks. But we're not going to learn, you know, keep on adjusting the prototype and making little tweaks and more user research. But the truth is, we're not going to get anything substantial until we get this into some users' hands. JORDYN: Like you say, this is sort of bad news, but it's good news. JOSH: Right. JORDYN: It's how you know, right? When you get to the point where the thing is so clear, and the way to talk about it with folks is so clear that you're not learning as much anymore, diminishing returns is the right way to frame it. You really just need people to get in there and use it. That's the only way you're going to keep learning. That's the moment to build. Hey, everyone out there, don't build before that. That's when you build. And then you really build the smallest thing you can conceive of building, and then whatever that thing is that you've conceived of building that's very small, scope it back by 50% [laughs]. Do it. JOSH: And it's a little humbling as someone who considers himself a founder but who had reasonable success as a founder and who has had pretty good success as, like a very, very early-stage, you know, zero to one and 1 to 10 product leader, has done this a bunch of times and actually coaches people in doing this, and came in with, I'm not going to lie, a pretty good vision in my head for how this stuff was supposed to work together. And it's so much better now. Going through a process actually makes things better. This wasn't just, like, wasting time. Like, going through a process, a thoughtful process actually makes us much better. Like, the thing we're talking about building is much more likely to be successful than the thing I was originally thinking about building, right, Jordyn? JORDYN: Yes. I guess it bears sort of diving into that a little bit, which is, you know, for all the founders out there or folks with a product idea kicking around your head, you're apt to have a little bit of everything we've talked about already. You have an idea of the solution you want to build. You have an idea of who it's for. You have an idea of what their pain points are. And you might be sitting there thinking to yourself, I don't need to do eight weeks of discovery. I already know the answers to all of these questions. And it's possible Josh felt that way coming into the incubator, but doing the work, gathering the data, talking to a ton of people, what you can't understand before doing that is how much more confident and at ease you will feel once you have done it and how much clarity you'll have about what it is you need to build first because likely, you're sitting there with a vision in your head for this product that is fully featured, fully formed. It is the 18th month. We just went into a hidey hole and built a really complex thing, thing. Cool, don't throw that out. But you got to begin somewhere, and you got to begin somewhere meaningful and valuable. And it's really hard to know where to begin without this discovery, without focusing on a specific person, talking to as many of those folks as you can. And really, it sort of writes itself. It does feel easy. But you've got to set aside the time and the effort to do the research, market research, whatever we call this, customer discovery. And it thrills me to no end, Josh, to hear that that is how it felt for you, that you probably felt like you already knew the answer. But it just feels different, having talked to, I mean, how many people, 100-plus people? We were looking at the stats. JOSH: Well over 100. LINDSEY: Josh was talking to a bunch of people before he came to the incubator, and all the founders that we accept have been doing that. Like, we want to know that you've been doing that research. But then, I guess, coming into the incubator, you're continuing that process and maybe in a more structured or a differently structured way where the thoughtbot team is helping you, maybe zero in far deeper on the segment. Is that accurate to say? Just kind of the difference between, like, maybe some of the pre-research and then the thoughtbot-specific user interviews that happen. JOSH: Yeah. I think they were more focused. They're both more focused from the audience, but also more focused from if it's not just you doing it; it forces you to have a more clear, here's the questions we're asking, and here's what we're trying to learn, all these conversations. It's also really nice to have some diversity in who's asking the questions. As good or bad as I am at user research and user discovery, I am only one person. And having people with different backgrounds professionally, who live in different countries, who have different feelings about social media, basically, who are not me in a variety of really interesting ways, I think, made the entire process more interesting. Caro, who is our lead designer on the project, handed off basically the summary document of, like, everything we learned, and she pulled out, like, little snippets from the interviews. First of all, that is not something I would have done had it been just me, like, let's be very, very clear. This is an incredibly valuable document, particularly as we consider adding additional people onto this project to be able to, like, translate insights. But also, like, this is, like, summarized in a way that, like, takes some real expertise. And I would have walked away with vibes, and instead, we walked away with like, structured learning. LINDSEY: Awesome. So, the last time we checked in, also, you were very excited because you had just maybe started a technical spike and were starting to dig into the, okay, like, how technically feasible is this product? And I think, at that point, you all were looking at circling around this target market. Here are the main tools they use to communicate. What does it even look like to connect with those APIs? How possible is it? Can you give us an update on some of that work? JOSH: The way that I framed the question in the very beginning was, is this a science project, or is this going to be engineering? And, for the most part, the answer is, it's going to be engineering, right? Some are a little bit easier; some are a little bit harder. But it isn't, like, reinventing new stuff, with one exception, and that is connecting up with iMessages, which has been in the news a little bit. And I honestly just hope the ghost of Steve Jobs comes back and haunts, you know, the Apple headquarters at Cupertino because, come on, guys, interoperability is sort of the future, and you're ruining it for everybody. But other than that, I think we have a pretty clear path. I'd like to test out some of these. Like, you don't really know until you do it. I think that's kind of the next step of what we're doing is to, like, demonstrate that it is possible for a person to connect up a couple of different accounts. It is possible for us to extract data and turn that into information and insights in the kinds of ways we thought we could and then present that back in a meaningful way. I think that would be the next step for us to do. Mostly, everything seems feasible, except for iMessages. LINDSEY: I've also, I think, heard some whispers of artificial intelligence for Knect. Is that true? Have you all looked at, you know, what AI's role could be in the solution? And how does that research look? JORDYN: We assume it will be part of the mix. That said, I don't know how to frame it exactly. It's not like it's not an essential ingredient. I think the work with large language models and the democratization of that work recently is absolutely going to make this product way better than it would have otherwise been. But there are a lot of heuristics we've, like, been able to, you know, draw out and come up with that are, frankly, algorithmic, and they're not AI necessarily. Now, the line between big data plus an algorithm and AI in the popular lexicon, like, there's a big difference between those two things. But, like, as people talk about it, yeah, where does one end and the other begin? But we definitely will be making use of a lot of the newest technologies, and we've dabbled in them. I've dabbled in them. I know, Josh, you've been playing around with some of them, too, to the point where we're like, okay, yeah, we can make use of this stuff. It will be a valuable kind of tool in our toolkit, but it will not be the sole basis of value. I guess that's the sort of nuanced answer. But maybe Josh has a more bite-sized hype machine answer to this. Yeah, AI to the moon, right? JOSH: Um, no. My only answer would be more cynical. Would anybody rightfully start a company in 2023 without having AI in there someplace? Maybe I'll say something different. One of the things that we've wondered is, there's more than a handful of companies that are adjacent to what we're doing that are definitely looking at similar kinds of problems and that aren't building the solution that, clearly, some market is, like, desperate for. And these are not, like, wildly successful companies that have grown astronomically and changed the market. And, like, trying to figure out, like, why is that? And one of the reasons is...I sound like a tech bro, right? There has been a paradigm shift in the technology world, but there really has been. What do, you know, publicly available LLMs like, you know, OpenAI's ChatGPT, like, what have they done? They have taken a whole set of problems that were once really, really complicated and allowed you to do a reasonable job of solving them much more easily than you ever could before. And it takes some amount of imagination, to realize that, to realize that these things are more than just, I mean, every product I have on my computer has some kind of OpenAI ChatGPT-style thing in there, right? It's, like, 16 different variations on give me a prompt, and I'll write your essay for you, and they all kind of suck. But those aren't the really exciting uses that I've seen. It's the more subtle things. There's a company called Booklet, which tries to replace, like, noisy email lists or noisy communities to something more calm. And one of its features is it'll send you a summary of what's been going on in the community since, like, the last time you checked in. And it gives you, like, two paragraphs to read, and they're really chill and really informative, and they don't make you feel FOMO. They don't make you feel stressed up. Like, okay, stuff's happened in the community. This is really neat. And it's all powered by OpenAI's APIs. And it's really kind of magical. And, like, you have to have a slightly different perspective to imagine these kinds of magical moments. So, that's what I'm excited about. There's a set of things that we would have had to do with, like, terrible, complicated queries and, like, pattern matching, and freaking grep, or whatever old-school tools we would have had, you know, for doing things in the past. And now you just get to, like, shove text in one end, and say how you want the results structured and get the results back in the other end. And it doesn't have to be perfect, but that's okay. Like, we're talking about human relationships, which are inherently imperfect. So, I'm fine with this. And it's kind of exciting. But we'll see in, you know, if we end up continuing going down this path. Like, that's the goal of the next stage is to be, like, okay, what are the easy things which we can generate out of this? Is there an intersection between, like, easy and meaningful? And if there is, this is pretty exciting. JORDYN: Can I add something to that? Which is that the problem Knect is trying to solve and the way that we're trying to solve it, the way we've thought of solving it that's differentiated, lends itself really well to the current landscape of AI tools in that, and you were kind of getting at this, Josh, but I feel like it bears drilling into a little bit, in that what we are proposing here is not a set of deterministic things. We're not going to give you a to-do list. It's not, like, a linear...deterministic is really the right word. Like, there's a to-do list. There are things that make the cut. You got to go address them, et cetera. We're way more trying to approximate the way a slightly more put-together person with more time would approach nurturing their relationships, which is just to remember more of it more of the time. It doesn't mean we need to remember all of it every time. That's not the kind of task this is, which makes it a really good task for the place that AI is at right now. And I think where folks have failed in the past is that they've either tried to turn it into a deterministic set of tasks, which then just feels like another to-do list, another inbox in a series of to-do lists and inboxes that you have in your life that just make you feel guilty and inadequate. That doesn't seem fun to us. We don't think you need another one of those. Or other places we've seen this fall down, which is that it takes the current sort of state of AI and tries to actually do the deterministic thing for you, but it doesn't do a good enough job right now. But where we've kind of landed in the middle is that, again, what we're trying to solve for is solvable in a way more probabilistic way. Like, can we get more of this accomplished more easily for you? It's never going to, like, completely, you know, do the task in this perfect deterministic way. But it is going to make you feel more confident and more relaxed à la Booklet, it sounds like, how to do that for this particular problem, which is a different bar and one we think we can clear. And that really does provide value. People are really longing for this. LINDSEY: Jordyn and Josh, building on those descriptions of, like, kind of maybe bad AI use case, good AI use case, could you give some specific examples of, like, what that might look like for Knect, like, how AI could be used in a good way or maybe what you're trying to avoid, more specifically? JOSH: Yeah. First, I'm going to start with what I want to avoid, which is, there are tools out there, and these may be interesting to some people listening, and if so, go find them. Good luck. But there are tools out there that say things like, "Keep in touch with your network at scale." And will use AI to write a message which you can send out to people without you ever having to, like, review it. That seems like creepy, futuristic sort of, you know, there's, like, a Black Mirror episode about that. Like, the whole point of having, like, a professional network of people who you care about is actually interacting with them. And having some service, like, write some prompt, maybe in its own voice, maybe if it's really good in your voice to, like, let them know that you care about them, let them know that you're thinking about them is, like, that's just bad. I think that's bad. And we don't have any plans to do that kind of thing, even though most uses for AI in the products that I use are writing three or four paragraphs in response to, like, a prompt. So, certainly, that's the common use case. It's not very appealing to us, and, frankly, in the people we were talking to, that wasn't one of the things that anybody ever suggested. It's obvious, but as far as we can tell, uninteresting, right? Just because it's obvious and just because it's straightforward doesn't mean it's interesting. The things we're imagining, for example, is, talk about Jordyn. Jordyn and I have known each other since 2020, I think. And we have, like, a whole history of text messages going back and forth, which, by the way, we actually could integrate because we both have Android phones, you know, shout-out for Open Internet. It might be interesting to, you know, summarize some of that, like, I know Jordyn pretty well, but other people who I might have not talked with in a while, sure, you could present me with a whole timeline of our communication. But that isn't necessarily useful. I'll have to read every bit of it. Why not, like, take all that and summarize, here's things you guys talk about. Here's things that, like, prompted your past few conversations: job change, got laid off, started a company, got a cat. Whatever those topics happen to be like, share some of those things. Bring me up to speed a little bit faster without having to literally review every word that could have been going back multiple years. That's a pretty good use of it. If you think about the way that messages work, right? Like, my kids are now at the age where they have phones, and I can now text my kids during the day. I will just tell you, like, this is, like, an incredibly joyful thing for me to be able to send, like, stupid memes to my kids or, like, what's exactly the right emoji to, like, send to them or for them to send to me. If every one of these things were, like, pushed to some kind of timeline, and I'm like, "What's going on with my kids?" Like, that's just, like, going back and reading through, like, your WhatsApp thread, which is something that isn't interesting necessarily, at least not from, like, a professional perspective. And there's, like, thousands of these things. Like, why do I want, like, a record in my, like, database of people who I talk to that says, "OMG," or "K," or "lol," or those sorts of things? Like, that's, like, a phrase. It isn't a conversation. And we could use an LLM to go summarize what the conversation was all about, which is, by the way, a way more interesting thing to persist over time than, like, my daughter typing "JK, JK, JK," which I think is 15-year-old for laughing at me, but I'm not entirely sure. LINDSEY: [laughs] Okay, so as you are...you mentioned wrapping up, and you did your last meeting, and you've got your kind of takeaway docs. You know, one, I'm curious, like, if there's, for your last, you know, days, hours of the program, if there's any final morsels you're trying to get out of it, and then how that kind of leads you into, like, what's next. What are you planning? JOSH: Let's do another one of these things in two weeks. [laughter] LINDSEY: Oh, okay. JOSH: Yeah. I'm inviting myself back on your show. We have one more day of school then, like so many folks, we get in a plane or get in a car and go do some travel and try to disconnect a little bit from our professional networks. So, I'm consciously not trying to say what's going to happen next. I would love to have this conversation again, maybe in two weeks, in the new year, about what comes next. I don't know that I could have a meaningful one right now. JORDYN: I will say what we are trying to send Josh off with into his R&R is what's it going to take to get to a viable MVP, not merely viable, but actually viable? Given what we know, given all this, you know, work that we've done in the last eight weeks, we now have, you know, the ability to envision what version one of something might be. And so, making that kind of argument: here's why it is what we're imagining it to be; here's what it is; here's what it would take to build that thing, gives Josh a lot of stuff to think about in the meantime in terms of how to accomplish that. And the thing that will happen in two weeks is understanding a little bit more about, like, the actual, okay, here's the actual plan. But the ingredients are there, which is super valuable and is a thing we have done every time at the end of every incubator we've done. It's essentially a...it is that what's next plan and why, why that thing. What's the ultimate upside of pursuing this product, and what's the near-term upside? And what's it going to take to get there? Because that's often a thing that founders, especially for some founders, which Josh is not, but what they often can't get their heads around is there's this little feeling if you've got this big vision over here, and you've got, like, the set of things you could do tomorrow, really tasky things really, like, operational things, oh, I need to, like, set up a C Corp, but I need to...whatever those things are, right? What's in between? What's that near-term path that's going to directionally head in the direction of that big vision? It's, so far, always, what we have sent founders off with. LINDSEY: So, if you weren't here at the very beginning of our session, we mentioned that the applications are now open for session 1 of 2024. I'm curious, Josh, what kind of founders would you recommend for the thoughtbot incubator? What's the profile of someone you might send our way? JOSH: I'm going to say something, and I don't think I match that profile, which is interesting, and folks should think about that, what that means. But I would say that if I had to, like, pick a profile, having gone through this, I would say somebody with an idea, of course; ideally, it's one that they have some connection to. They have some personal passion for but, not just because it's an abstract idea but a personal passion that comes from their own experience. And it's really great for somebody who hasn't been inside of a tech company before, at least on the tech, half the business. Tech companies have three halves: one half is, you know, the product building side of bit of it or the tech half, which is engineers, and product designers, and product managers. And the other half of that is the go-to-market side, like sales, and marketing, and customer success. And the third half would be, like, operations like HR and finance. So, if you have experience in, like, the sales, or the marketing, or the customer success side, or the HR, or the finance, or corporate operations or that part of it, and, you know, you're familiar with tech coming from that perspective but maybe haven't been on the actually building stuff side of them before, this is a really, really good process. Because what does thoughtbot do? It does the building in tech side of things: designers, product managers, and especially engineers. And it has this, like, legacy and this history and expertise, therefore, with, like, the journeyman program where they help, like, level people up in those areas and now are applying this to founders. Because as the founder, you do need to develop some ability to converse around engineering and technical stuff. And you really, really, really, really need to get good at the discovery side, especially of, like, product design and product management. And those are the things you're going to get to do and you're going to get to do with people who are themselves really, really good at it. And that's awesome. The flip side is if you're, you know, a founder who is super attached to every bit of your vision, and you think you have the strategy all laid out and you're just looking for, like, warm bodies to build it, I mean, is it the insight team? What's the right level at thoughtbot? I forget the names of things, but, like, thoughtbot has, like, a startup program where you can give thoughtbot money, and they will build things for you. And they're also really, really good at that, but that's not the incubator program. The incubator program is probably a step earlier. So, I think it is worth thinking, are you at the I'm so confident of my vision; I'm so confident in my strategy that I just want to get this thing built, then maybe don't sign up for the Incubator. But if you're at the stage of I think this is a problem; I'm pretty sure this is a problem; I really want it to get solved; I have some vision, but I know it's going to change, then I think the incubator is really ideal, especially if you're looking to upskill yourself, too, because you're going to walk away with the ability to be conversant around the technology stuff. And you're going to walk away with a crap ton of experience with the discovery, qualitative discovery, like user interviews, quantitative discovery, like, you know, running ads, and landing pages, and all that stuff. Like, you're going to be really solid with that stuff after eight weeks because you will have done it. LINDSEY: Jordyn, any thoughts? JORDYN: I love all that. I think it's accurate. I would only say to those of you sitting out there who are thinking, I'm in that other camp; I'm very confident about what it is I want to build; I would ask you to do a little soul-searching as to whether that's actually true. Like, what evidence do you have? If you needed to stand up in court and defend your conclusions and your vision, could you? And I say that as the person who, as a first-time founder, was deluded in that way. I thought I knew exactly what I was doing and for whom and why. And, boy, howdy, could I have used a program like this to actually get me to sit down and, like, talk to people, listen to them, figure out what was valuable and what wasn't, what a valuable, you know, initial market offering was going to be like. Ah, I wish really, really badly that I'd had something like this because I was pretty deluded. I don't even know, like, what the right word is. I just didn't know what I didn't know. So, like the way you described it, Josh, I know Jordyn of 2017 would have been like, "That's me. I know this thing that I need to do. LINDSEY: [laughs] JORDYN: So, I don't need to apply to this program because I don't need to do any of that discovery work." But I was wrong [laughs]. I was absolutely wrong. I was wrong to the tune of, you know, two years and $150,000 of angel investment. So, consider, it is not idly that I say this to you, person sitting out there who feels very confident in your vision right now. Perhaps you have done all those things already; in that case, [inaudible 33:43] you don't need this. And you just need to [inaudible 33:46] with the thing you already know to be true. But ask yourself, how do you know what you know? LINDSEY: Yeah, even if you...we can help you build the thing. But we're probably, also, still going to push you on [laughs] some of those things we [crosstalk 34:01]. JORDYN: Yeah, we're still going to ask. We're going to ask to see the receipts. LINDSEY: Yeah [laughs]. JORDYN: And maybe you have the receipts, which is great, but we're still going to ask you for them, I guess, is my point. Every team at thoughtbot will ask you for the receipts, by the way, not just mine [laughs]. LINDSEY: The other interesting thing you touched on, Josh, was, I think, where we kind of started the incubator was with that target profile that you just described, which is, like, the less technical founder, and maybe even, like, a first-time founder. And then over time and seeing, like, applications, we broadened that as we saw, like, oh, you know, actually, also, technical founders and repeat founders do still need, like, help with this and can use guidance. So, we've expanded a bit, and maybe that is still, like, the person who gets the most value at the end of the day is the non-technical who hasn't really done this before. But yeah, we've kind of expanded to those other profiles as well. JOSH: There's a reason that repeat founders are no more successful on average than first-time founders, and it's something really important that Jordyn said, which is, you may think you've done all this, but we're going to ask you for the receipts. Just because you've done this before doesn't mean you're going to be good at it. Chances are, if you've done this before, it's mostly because you got really, really lucky; ask me how I know. So, it's nice to have. I mean, I described a profile, and I said that wasn't me. But I'll just tell you, as somebody who, like, spent his entire career, almost his entire career, in the tech side of tech companies, and I think I'm pretty good at it, I'm certainly not the worst at it, thinks I'm pretty good at it, it's still really nice to have a team backing you up in this early moment. It's really nice to have a team. JORDYN: Yeah, I will say another thing that we've heard from every founder we've worked with is just how much more real and actionable their idea feels when they have a team sitting there with them taking them seriously, which is another thing, you know, I really would have benefited from is, like, suddenly, when you've got three or more industry professionals sitting there in a Zoom call with you, like, okay, what are we doing? Why are we doing this? How do we know? The feeling of being taken seriously in that way and then having a bunch of people working full-time with you for eight weeks, they're in it with you; they're asking the questions; they're talking to people; they're coming back and saying, "I just had the most amazing conversation with someone. Here's what I learned," it just takes your project to a different level of reality. Like, we're humans. We're social beings. We create reality together. And when you're working alone, you know, through force of will, you can do a lot, but with a group, it really feels like you're creating something together. And, like Josh said, having those other brains with other experiences in other contexts percolating on your idea it's like bringing a team to bear on something. There's just nothing quite like it, and it's a huge value of the program. Like, we can give you the programming and, in fact, you can go run the programming. It is published in our handbook. The things that we do together you can go do, but it is a whole other matter to do them with a team. It just feels different. LINDSEY: Great. Well, I think that's where we're going to end today. I mean, Josh is leaving us hanging a little bit. So, we might need to...we're going to figure out a way to get your final thoughts, conclusions in a few weeks because I know everyone would love to hear what the plan is for Knect. Josh and Jordyn, as always, thank you so much. Any final thoughts or farewells from you today? JOSH: I've really enjoyed it. I'm going to miss these folks. Though, apparently, I get to hang out in a special Slack channel forever. LINDSEY: Yeah, you get to hang out. JOSH: Which is nice. LINDSEY: Exactly. You can't get rid of us just yet. JOSH: Good. I wouldn't want to. LINDSEY: All right. Thanks, y'all. And thanks, everyone, for tuning in.Special Guests: Jordyn Bonds and Josh Herzig-Marx .Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

In this episode of the "Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots" podcast, host Victoria Guido delves into the intersection of technology, product development, and personal passions with her guests Henry Yin, Co-Founder and CTO of Merico, and Maxim Wheatley, the company's first employee and Community Leader. They are joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, as a special guest co-host. The conversation begins with a casual exchange about rock climbing, revealing that both Henry and Victoria share this hobby, which provides a unique perspective on their professional roles in software development. Throughout the podcast, Henry and Maxim discuss the journey and evolution of Merico, a company specializing in data-driven tools for developers. They explore the early stages of Merico, highlighting the challenges and surprises encountered while seeking product-market fit and the strategic pivot from focusing on open-source funding allocation to developing a comprehensive engineering metric platform. This shift in focus led to the creation of Apache DevLake, an open-source project contributed to by Merico and later donated to the Apache Software Foundation, reflecting the company's commitment to transparency and community-driven development. The episode also touches on future challenges and opportunities in the field of software engineering, particularly the integration of AI and machine learning tools in the development process. Henry and Maxim emphasize the potential of AI to enhance developer productivity and the importance of data-driven insights in improving team collaboration and software delivery performance. Joe contributes to the discussion with his own experiences and perspectives, particularly on the importance of process over individual metrics in team management. Merico Follow Merico on GitHub, Linkedin, or X. Apache DevLake Follow Henry Yin on LinkedIn. Follow Maxim Wheatley on LinkedIn or X. Follow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn. Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Henry Yin, Co-Founder and CTO of Merico, and Maxim Wheatley, the first employee and Community Leader of Merico, creating data-driven developer tools for forward-thinking devs. Thank you for joining us. HENRY: Thanks for having us. MAXIM: Glad to be here, Victoria. Thank you. VICTORIA: And we also have a special guest co-host today, the CTO of thoughtbot, Joe Ferris. JOE: Hello. VICTORIA: Okay. All right. So, I met Henry and Maxim at the 7CTOs Conference in San Diego back in November. And I understand that Henry, you are also an avid rock climber. HENRY: Yes. I know you were also in Vegas during Thanksgiving. And I sort of have [inaudible 00:49] of a tradition to go to Vegas every Thanksgiving to Red Rock National Park. Yeah, I'd love to know more about how was your trip to Vegas this Thanksgiving. VICTORIA: Yes. I got to go to Vegas as well. We had a bit of rain, actually. So, we try not to climb on sandstone after the rain and ended up doing some sport climbing on limestone around the Blue Diamond Valley area; a little bit light on climbing for me, actually, but still beautiful out there. I loved being in Red Rock Canyon outside of Las Vegas. And I do find that there's just a lot of developers and engineers who have an affinity for climbing. I'm not sure what exactly that connection is. But I know, Joe, you also have a little bit of climbing and mountaineering experience, right? JOE: Yeah. I used to climb a good deal. I actually went climbing for the first time in, like, three years this past weekend, and it was truly pathetic. But you have to [laughs] start somewhere. VICTORIA: That's right. And, Henry, how long have you been climbing for? HENRY: For about five years. I like to spend my time in nature when I'm not working: hiking, climbing, skiing, scuba diving, all of the good outdoor activities. VICTORIA: That's great. And I understand you were bouldering in Vegas, right? Did you go to Kraft Boulders? HENRY: Yeah, we went to Kraft also Red Spring. It was a surprise for me. I was able to upgrade my outdoor bouldering grade to B7 this year at Red Spring and Monkey Wrench. There was always some surprises for me. When I went to Red Rock National Park last year, I met Alex Honnold there who was shooting a documentary, and he was really, really friendly. So, really enjoying every Thanksgiving trip to Vegas. VICTORIA: That's awesome. Yeah, well, congratulations on B7. That's great. It's always good to get a new grade. And I'm kind of in the same boat with Joe, where I'm just constantly restarting my climbing career. So [laughs], I haven't had a chance to push a grade like that in a little while. But that sounds like a lot of fun. HENRY: Yeah, it's really hard to be consistent on climbing when you have, like, a full-time job, and then there's so much going on in life. It's always a challenge. VICTORIA: Yeah. But a great way to like, connect with other people, and make friends, and spend time outdoors. So, I still really appreciate it, even if I'm not maybe progressing as much as I could be. That's wonderful. So, tell me, how did you and Maxim actually meet? Did you meet through climbing or the outdoors? MAXIM: We actually met through AngelList, which I really recommend to anyone who's really looking to get into startups. When Henry and I met, Merico was essentially just starting. I had this eagerness to explore something really early stage where I'd get to do all of the interesting kind of cross-functional things that come with that territory, touching on product and marketing, on fundraising, kind of being a bit of everything. And I was eager to look into something that was applying, you know, machine learning, data analytics in some really practical way. And I came across what Hezheng Henry and the team were doing in terms of just extracting useful insights from codebases. And we ended up connecting really well. And I think the previous experience I had was a good fit for the team, and the rest was history. And we've had a great time building together for the last five years. VICTORIA: Yeah. And tell me a little bit more about your background and what you've been bringing to the Merico team. MAXIM: I think, like a lot of people in startups, consider myself a member of the Island of Misfit Toys in the sense that no kind of clear-cut linear pathway through my journey but a really exciting and productive one nonetheless. So, I began studying neuroscience at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. I was about to go to medical school and, in my high school years had explored entrepreneurship in a really basic way. I think, like many people do, finding ways to monetize my hobbies and really kind of getting infected with that bug that I could create something, make money from it, and kind of be the master of my own destiny, for lack of less cliché terms. So, not long after graduating, I started my first job that recruited me into a seed-stage venture capital, and from there, I had the opportunity to help early-stage startups, invest in them. I was managing a startup accelerator out there. From there, produced a documentary that followed those startups. Not long after all of that, I ended up co-founding a consumer electronics company where I was leading product, so doing lots of mechanical, electrical, and a bit of software engineering. And without taking too long, those were certainly kind of two of the more formative things. But one way or another, I've spent my whole career now in startups and, especially early-stage ones. It was something I was eager to do was kind of take some of the high-level abstract science that I had learned in my undergraduate and kind of apply some of those frameworks to some of the things that I do today. VICTORIA: That's super interesting. And now I'm curious about you, Henry, and your background. And what led you to get the idea for Merico? HENRY: Yeah. My professional career is actually much simpler because Merico was my first company and my first job. Before Merico, I was a PhD student at UC Berkeley studying computer science. My research was an intersection of software engineering and machine learning. And back then, we were tackling this research problem of how do we fairly measure the developer contributions in a software project? And the reason we are interested in this project has to do with the open-source funding problem. So, let's say an open-source project gets 100k donations from Google. How does the maintainers can automatically distribute all of the donations to sometimes hundreds or thousands of contributors according to their varying level of contributions? So, that was the problem we were interested in. We did research on this for about a year. We published a paper. And later on, you know, we started the company with my, you know, co-authors. And that's how the story began for Merico. VICTORIA: I really love that. And maybe you could tell me just a little bit more about what Merico is and why a company may be interested in trying out your services. HENRY: The product we're currently offering actually is a little bit different from what we set out to build. At the very beginning, we were building this platform for open-source funding problem that we can give an open-source project. We can automatically, using algorithm, measure developer contributions and automatically distribute donations to all developers. But then we encountered some technical and business challenges. So, we took out the metrics component from the previous idea and launched this new product in the engineering metric space. And this time, we focus on helping engineering leaders better understand the health of their engineering work. So, this is the Merico analytics platform that we're currently offering to software engineering teams. JOE: It's interesting. I've seen some products that try to judge the health of a codebase, but it sounds like this is more trying to judge the health of the team. MAXIM: Yeah, I think that's generally fair to say. As we've evolved, we've certainly liked to describe ourselves as, you know, I think a lot of people are familiar with observability tools, which help ultimately ascertain, like, the performance of the technology, right? Like, it's assessing, visualizing, chopping up the machine-generated data. And we thought there would be a tremendous amount of value in being, essentially, observability for the human-generated data. And I think, ultimately, what we found on our journey is that there's a tremendous amount of frustration, especially in larger teams, not in looking to use a tool like that for any kind of, like, policing type thing, right? Like, no one's looking if they're doing it right, at least looking to figure out, like, oh, who's underperforming, or who do we need to yell at? But really trying to figure out, like, where are the strengths? Like, how can we improve our processes? How can we make sure we're delivering better software more reliably, more sustainably? Like how are we balancing that trade-off between new features, upgrades and managing tech debt and bugs? We've ultimately just worked tirelessly to, hopefully, fill in those blind spots for people. And so far, I'm pleased to say that the reception has been really positive. We've, I think, tapped into a somewhat subtle but nonetheless really important pain point for a lot of teams around the world. VICTORIA: Yeah. And, Henry, you said that you started it based on some of the research that you did at UC Berkeley. I also understand you leaned on the research from the DevOps research from DORA. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and what you found insightful from the research that was out there and already existed? MAXIM: So, I think what's really funny, and it really speaks to, I think, the importance in product development of just getting out there and speaking with your potential users or actual users, and despite all of the deep, deep research we had done on the topic of understanding engineering, we really hadn't touched on DORA too much. And this is probably going back about five years now. Henry and I were taking a customer meeting with an engineering leader at Yahoo out in the Bay Area. He kind of revealed this to us basically where he's like, "Oh, you guys should really look at incorporating DORA into this thing. Like, all of the metrics, all of the analytics you're building super cool, super interesting, but DORA really has this great framework, and you guys should look into it." And in hindsight, I think we can now [chuckles], honestly, admit to ourselves, even if it maybe was a bit embarrassing at the time where both Henry and I were like, "What? What is that? Like, what's Dora?" And we ended up looking into it and since then, have really become evangelists for the framework. And I'll pass it to Henry to talk about, like, what that journey has looked like. HENRY: Thanks, Maxim. I think what's cool about DORA is in terms of using metrics, there's always this challenge called Goodhart's Law, right? So, whenever a metric becomes a target, the metric cease to be a good metric because people are going to find ways to game the metric. So, I think what's cool about DORA is that it actually offers not just one metric but four key metrics that bring balance to covering both the stability and velocity. So, when you look at DORA metrics, you can't just optimize for velocity and sacrificing your stability. But you have to look at all four metrics at the same time, and that's harder to game. So, I think that's why it's become more and more popular in the industry as the starting point for using metrics for data-driven engineering. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I like how DORA also represents it as the metrics and how they apply to where you are in the lifecycle of your product. So, I'm curious: with Merico, what kind of insights do you think engineering leaders can gain from having this data that will unlock some of their team's potential? MAXIM: So, I think one of the most foundational things before we get into any detailed metrics is I think it's more important than ever, especially given that so many of us are remote, right? Where the general processes of software engineering are generally difficult to understand, right? They're nuanced. They tend to kind of happen in relative isolation until a PR is reviewed and merged. And it can be challenging, of course, to understand what's being done, how consistently, how well, like, where are the good parts, where are the bad parts. And I think that problem gets really exasperated, especially in a remote setting where no one is necessarily in the same place. So, on a foundational level, I think we've really worked hard to solve that challenge, where just being able to see, like, how are we doing? And to that point, I think what we've found before anyone even dives too deep into all of the insights that we can deliver, I think there's a tremendous amount of appetite for anyone who's looking to get into that practice of constant improvement and figuring out how to level up the work they're doing, just setting close benchmarks, figuring out, like, okay, when we talk about more nebulous or maybe subjective terms like speed, or quality, what does good look like? What does consistent look like? Being able to just tie those things to something that really kind of unifies the vocabulary is something I always like to say, where, okay, now, even if we're not focused on a specific metric, or we don't have a really particular goal in mind that we want to assess, now we're at least starting the conversation as a team from a place where when we talk about quality, we have something that's shared between us. We understand what we're referring to. And when we're talking about speed, we can also have something consistent to talk about there. And within all of that, I think one of the most powerful things is it helps to really kind of ground the conversations around the trade-offs, right? There's always that common saying: the triangle of trade-offs is where it's, like, you can have it cheap; you can have it fast, and you can have it good, but you can only have two. And I think with DORA, with all of these different frameworks with many metrics, it helps to really solidify what those trade-offs look like. And that's, for me at least, been one of the most impactful things to watch: is our global users have really started evolving their practices with it. HENRY: Yeah. And I want to add to Maxim's answer. But before that, I just want to quickly mention how our products are structured. So, Merico actually has an open-source component and a proprietary component. So, the open-source component is called Apache DevLake. It's an open-source project we created first within Merico and later on donated to Apache Software Foundation. And now, it's one of the most popular engineering metrics tool out there. And then, on top of that, we built a SaaS offering called DevInsight Cloud, which is powered by Apache DevLake. So, with DevLake, the open-source project, you can set up your data connections, connect DevLake to all of the dev tools you're using, and then we collect data. And then we provide many different flavors of dashboards for our users. And many of those dashboards are structured, and there are different questions engineering teams might want to ask. For example, like, how fast are we responding to our customer requirement? For that question, we will look at like, metrics like change lead time, or, like, for a question, how accurate is our planning for the sprint? In that case, the dashboard will show metrics relating to the percentage of issues we can deliver for every sprint for our plan. So, that's sort of, you know, based on the questions that the team wants to answer, we provide different dashboards that help them extract insights using the data from their DevOps tools. JOE: It's really interesting you donated it to Apache. And I feel like the hybrid SaaS open-source model is really common. And I've become more and more skeptical of it over the years as companies start out open source, and then once they start getting competitors, they change the license. But by donating it to Apache, you sort of sidestep that potential trust issue. MAXIM: Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head with that one because, in many ways, for us, engaging with Apache in the way that we have was, I think, ultimately born out of the observations we had about the shortcomings of other products in the space where, for one, very practical. We realized quickly that if we wanted to offer the most complete visibility possible, it would require connections to so many different products, right? I think anyone can look at their engineering toolchain and identify perhaps 7, 9, 10 different things they're using on a day-to-day basis. Oftentimes, those aren't shared between companies, too. So, I think part one was just figuring out like, okay, how do we build a framework that makes it easy for developers to build a plugin and contribute to the project if there's something they want to incorporate that isn't already supported? And I think that was kind of part one. Part two is, I think, much more important and far more profound, which is developer trust, right? Where we saw so many different products out there that claimed to deliver these insights but really had this kind of black-box approach, right? Where data goes in, something happens, insights come out. How's it doing that? How's it weighting things? What's it calculating? What variables are incorporated? All of that is a mystery. And that really leads to developers, rightfully, not having a basis to trust what's actually being shown to them. So, for us, it was this perspective of what's the maximum amount of transparency that we could possibly offer? Well, open source is probably the best answer to that question. We made sure the entirety of the codebase is something they can take a look at, they can modify. They can dive into the underlying queries and algorithms and how everything is working to gain a total sense of trust in how is this thing working? And if I need to modify something to account for some nuanced details of how our team works, we can also do that. And to your point, you know, I think it's definitely something I would agree with that one of the worst things we see in the open-source community is that companies will be kind of open source in name only, right? Where it's really more of marketing or kind of sales thing than anything, where it's like, oh, let's tap into the good faith of open source. But really, somehow or another, through bait and switch, through partial open source, through license changes, whatever it is, we're open source in name only but really, a proprietary, closed-source product. So, for us, donating the core of DevLake to the Apache Foundation was essentially our way of really, like, putting, you know, walking the talk, right? Where no one can doubt at this point, like, oh, is this thing suddenly going to have the license changed? Is this suddenly going to go closed-source? Like, the answer to that now is a definitive no because it is now part of that ecosystem. And I think with the aspirations we've had to build something that is not just a tool but, hopefully, long-term becomes, like, foundational technology, I think that gives people confidence and faith that this is something they can really invest in. They can really plumb into their processes in a deep and meaningful way with no concerns whatsoever that something is suddenly going to change that makes all of that work, you know, something that they didn't expect. JOE: I think a lot of companies guard their source code like it's their secret sauce, but my experience has been more that it's the secret shame [laughs]. HENRY: [laughs] MAXIM: There's no doubt in my role with, especially our open-source product driving our community we've really seen the magic of what a community-driven product can be. And open source, I think, is the most kind of a true expression of a community-driven product, where we have a Slack community with nearly 1,000 developers in it now. Naturally, right? Some of those developers are in there just to ask questions and answer questions. Some are intensely involved, right? They're suggesting improvements. They're suggesting new features. They're finding ways to refine things. And it really is that, like, fantastic culture that I'm really proud that we've cultivated where best idea ships, right? If you've got a good idea, throw it into a GitHub issue or a comment. Let's see how the community responds to it. Let's see if someone wants to pick it up. Let's see if someone wants to submit a PR. If it's good, it goes into production, and then the entire community benefits. And, for me, that's something I've found endlessly exciting. HENRY: Yeah. I think Joe made a really good point on the secret sauce part because I don't think the source code is our secret sauce. There's no rocket science in DevLake. If we break it down, it's really just some UI UX plus data pipelines. I think what's making DevLake successful is really the trust and collaboration that we're building with the open-source community. When it comes to trust, I think there are two aspects. First of all, trust on the metric accuracy, right? Because with a lot of proprietary software, you don't know how they are calculating the metrics. If people don't know how the metrics are calculated, they can't really trust it and use it. And secondly, is the trust that they can always use this software, and there's no vendor lock-in. And when it comes to collaboration, we were seeing many of our data sources and dashboards they were contributed not by our core developers but by the community. And the communities really, you know, bring in their insights and their use cases into DevLake and make DevLake, you know, more successful and more applicable to more teams in different areas of soft engineering. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: I understand you've taken some innovative approaches on using AI in your open-source repositories to respond to issues and questions from your developers. So, can you tell me a little bit more about that? HENRY: Absolutely. I self-identify as a builder. And one characteristic of builder is to always chase after the dream of building infinite things within the finite lifespan. So, I was always thinking about how we can be more productive, how we can, you know, get better at getting better. And so, this year, you know, AI is huge, and there are so many AI-powered tools that can help us achieve more in terms of delivering software. And then, internally, we had a hackathon, and there's one project, which is an AI-powered coding assistant coming out of it called DevChat. And we have made it public at devchat.ai. But we've been closely following, you know, what are the other AI-powered tools that can make, you know, software developers' or open-source maintainers' lives easier? And we've been observing that there are more and more open-source projects adopting AI chatbots to help them handle, you know, respond to GitHub issues. So, I recently did a case study on a pretty popular open-source project called LangChain. So, it's the hot kid right now in the AI space right now. And it's using a chatbot called Dosu to help respond to issues. I had some interesting findings from the case study. VICTORIA: In what ways was that chatbot really helpful, and in what ways did it not really work that well? HENRY: Yeah, I was thinking of how to measure the effectiveness of that chatbot. And I realized that there is a feature that's built in GitHub, which is the reaction to comment. So, how the chatbot works is whenever there is a new issue, the chatbot would basically retrieval-augmented generation pipeline and then using ORM to generate a response to the issue. And then there's people leave reactions to that comment by the chatbot, but mostly, it's thumbs up and thumbs down. So, what I did is I collect all of the issues from the LangChain repository and look at how many thumbs up and thumbs down Dosu chatbot got, you know, from all of the comments they left with the issues. So, what I found is that over across 2,600 issues that Dosu chatbot helped with, it got around 900 thumbs ups and 1,300 thumbs down. So, then it comes to how do we interpret this data, right? Because it got more thumbs down than thumbs up doesn't mean that it's actually not useful or harmful to the developers. So, to answer that question, I actually looked at some examples of thumbs-up and thumb-down comments. And what I found is the thumb down doesn't mean that the chatbot is harmful. It's mostly the developers are signaling to the open-source maintainers that your chatbot is not helping in this case, and we need human intervention. But with the thumbs up, the chatbot is actually helping a lot. There's one issue where people post a question, and the chatbot just wrote the code and then basically made a suggestion on how to resolve the issue. And the human response is, "Damn, it worked." And that was very surprising to me, and it made me consider, you know, adopting similar technology and AI-powered tools for our own open-source project. VICTORIA: That's very cool. Well, I want to go back to the beginning of Merico. And when you first got started, and you were trying to understand your customers and what they need, was there anything surprising in that early discovery process that made you change your strategy? HENRY: So, one challenge we faced when we first explored open-source funding allocation problem space is that our algorithm looks at the Git repository. But with software engineering, especially with open-source collaboration, there are so many activities that are happening outside of open-source repos on GitHub. For example, I might be an evangelist, and my day-to-day work might be, you know, engaging in community work, talking about the open-source project conference. And all of those things were not captured by our algorithm, which was only looking at the GitHub repository at the time. So, that was one of the technical challenge that we faced and led us to switch over to more of the system-driven metrics side. VICTORIA: Gotcha. Over the years, how has Merico grown? What has changed between when you first started and today? HENRY: So, one thing is the team size. When we just got started, we only have, you know, the three co-founders and Maxim. And now we have grown to a team of 70 team members, and we have a fully distributed team across multiple continents. So, that's pretty interesting dynamics to handle. And we learned a lot of how to build effective team and a cohesive team along the way. And in terms of product, DevLake now, you know, has more than 900 developers in our Slack community, and we track over 360 companies using DevLake. So, definitely, went a long way since we started the journey. And yeah, tomorrow we...actually, Maxim and I are going to host our end-of-year Apache DevLake Community Meetup and featuring Nathen Harvey, the Google's DORA team lead. Yeah, definitely made some progress since we've been working on Merico for four years. VICTORIA: Well, that's exciting. Well, say hi to Nathen for me. I helped takeover DevOps DC with some of the other organizers that he was running way back in the day, so [laughs] that's great. What challenges do you see on the horizon for Merico and DevLake? MAXIM: One of the challenges I think about a lot, and I think it's front of mind for many people, especially with software engineering, but at this point, nearly every profession, is what does AI mean for everything we're doing? What does the future look like where developers are maybe producing the majority of their code through prompt-based approaches versus code-based approaches, right? How do we start thinking about how we coherently assess that? Like, how do you maybe redefine what the value is when there's a scenario where perhaps all coders, you know, if we maybe fast forward a few years, like, what if the AI is so good that the code is essentially perfect? What does success look like then? How do you start thinking about what is a good team if everyone is shooting out 9 out of 10 PRs nearly every time because they're all using a unified framework supported by AI? So, I think that's certainly kind of one of the challenges I envision in the future. I think, really, practically, too, many startups have been contending with the macroclimate within the fundraising climates. You know, I think many of the companies out there, us included, had better conditions in 2019, 2020 to raise funds at more favorable valuations, perhaps more relaxed terms, given the climate of the public markets and, you know, monetary policy. I think that's, obviously, we're all experiencing and has tightened things up like revenue expectations or now higher kind of expectations on getting into a highly profitable place or, you know, the benchmark is set a lot higher there. So, I think it's not a challenge that's unique to us in any way at all. I think it's true for almost every company that's out there. It's now kind of thinking in a more disciplined way about how do you kind of meet the market demands without compromising on the product vision and without compromising on the roadmap and the strategies that you've put in place that are working but are maybe coming under a little bit more pressure, given kind of the new set of rules that have been laid out for all of us? VICTORIA: Yeah, that is going to be a challenge. And do you see the company and the product solving some of those challenges in a unique way? HENRY: I've been thinking about how AI can fulfill the promise of making developers 10x developer. I'm an early adopter and big fan of GitHub Copilot. I think it really helps with writing, like, the boilerplate code. But I think it's improving maybe my productivity by 20% to 30%. It's still pretty far away from 10x. So, I'm thinking how Merico's solutions can help fill the gap a little bit. In terms of Apache DevLake and its SaaS offering, I think we are helping with, like, the team collaboration and measuring, like, software delivery performance, how can the team improve as a whole. And then, recently, we had a spin-off, which is the AI-powered coding assistant DevChat. And that's sort of more on the empowering individual developers with, like, testing, refactoring these common workflows. And one big thing for us in the future is how we can combine these two components, you know, team collaboration and improvement tool, DevLake, with the individual coding assistant, DevChat, how they can be integrated together to empower developers. I think that's the big question for Merico ahead. JOE: Have you used Merico to judge the contributions of AI to a project? HENRY: [laughs] So, actually, after we pivot to engineering metrics, we focus now less on individual contribution because that sometimes can be counterproductive. Because whenever you visualize that, then people will sometimes become defensive and try to optimize for the metrics that measure individual contributions. So, we sort of...nowadays, we no longer offer that kind of metrics within DevLake, if that makes sense. MAXIM: And that kind of goes back to one of Victoria's earlier questions about, like, what surprised us in the journey. Early on, we had this very benevolent perspective, you know, I would want to kind of underline that, that we never sought to be judging individuals in a negative way. We were looking to find ways to make it useful, even to a point of finding ways...like, we explored different ways to give developers badges and different kind of accomplishment milestones, like, things to kind of signal their strengths and accomplishments. But I think what we've found in that journey is that...and I would really kind of say this strongly. I think the only way that metrics of any kind serve an organization is when they support a healthy culture. And to that end, what we found is that we always like to preach, like, it's processes, not people. It's figuring out if you're hiring correctly, if you're making smart decisions about who's on the team. I think you have to operate with a default assumption within reason that those people are doing their best work. They're trying to move the company forward. They're trying to make good decisions to better serve the customers, better serve the company and the product. With that in mind, what you're really looking to do is figure out what is happening within the underlying processes that get something from thought to production. And how do you clear the way for people? And I think that's really been a big kind of, you know, almost like a tectonic shift for our company over the years is really kind of fully transitioning to that. And I think, in some ways, DORA has represented kind of almost, like, a best practice for, like, processes over people, right? It's figuring out between quality and speed; how are you doing? Where are those trade-offs? And then, within the processes that account for those outcomes, how can you really be improving things? So, I would say, for us, that's, like, been kind of the number one thing there is figuring out, like, how do we keep doubling down on processes, not people? And how do we really make sure that we're not just telling people that we're on their side and we're taking a, you know, a very humanistic perspective on wanting to improve the lives of people but actually doing it with the product? HENRY: But putting the challenge on measuring individual contributions aside, I'm as curious as Joe about AI's role in software engineering. I expect to see more and more involvement of AI and gradually, you know, replacing low-level and medium-level and, in the future, even high-level tasks for humans so we can just focus on, like, the objective instead of the implementation. VICTORIA: I can imagine, especially if you're starting to integrate AI tools into your systems and if you're growing your company at scale, some of the ability to have a natural intuition about what's going on it really becomes a challenge, and the data that you can derive from some of these products could help you make better decisions and all different types of things. So, I'm kind of curious to hear from Joe; with your history of open-source contribution and being a part of many different development teams, what kind of information do you wish that you had to help you make decisions in your role? JOE: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I've used some tools that try to identify problem spots in the code. But it'd be interesting to see the results of tools that analyze problem spots in the process. Like, I'd like to learn more about how that works. HENRY: I'm curious; one question for Joe. What is your favorite non-AI-powered code scanning tool that you find useful for yourself or for your team? JOE: I think the most common static analysis tool I use is something to find the Git churn in a repository. Some of this probably is because I've worked mostly on projects these days with dynamic languages. So, there's kind of a limit to how much static analysis you can do of, you know, a Ruby or a Python codebase. But just by analyzing which parts of the application changed the most, help you find which parts are likely to be the buggiest and the most complex. I think every application tends to involve some central model. Like, if you're making an e-commerce site, then probably products are going to have a lot of the core logic, purchases will have a lot of the core logic. And identifying those centers of gravity just through the Git statistics has helped me find places that need to be reworked. HENRY: That's really interesting. Is it something like a hotspot analysis? And when you find a hotspot, then would you invest more resources in, like, refactoring the hotspot to make it more maintainable? JOE: Right, exactly. Like, you can use the statistics to see which files you should look at. And then, usually, when you actually go into the files, especially if you look at some of the changes to the files, it's pretty clear that it's become, you know, for example, a class has become too large, something has become too tightly coupled. HENRY: Gotcha. VICTORIA: Yeah. And so, if you could go back in time, five years ago and give yourself some advice when you first started along this journey, what advice would you give yourself? MAXIM: I'll answer the question in two ways: first for the company and then for myself personally. I think for the company, what I would say is, especially when you're in that kind of pre-product market fit space, and you're maybe struggling to figure out how to solve a challenge that really matters, I think you need to really think carefully about, like, how would you yourself be using your product? And if you're finding reasons, you wouldn't, like, really, really pay careful attention to those. And I think, for us, like, early on in our journey, we ultimately kind of found ourselves asking, we're like, okay, we're a smaller earlier stage team. Perhaps, like, small improvements in productivity or quality aren't going to necessarily move the needle. That's one of the reasons maybe we're not using this. Maybe our developers are already at bandwidth. So, it's not a question of unlocking more bandwidth or figuring out where there's kind of weak points or bottlenecks at that level, but maybe how can we dial in our own processes to let the whole team function more effectively. And I think, for us, like, the more we started thinking through that lens of, like, what's useful to us, like, what's solving a pain point for us, I think, in many ways, DevLake was born out of that exact thinking. And now DevLake is used by hundreds of companies around the world and has, you know, this near thousand developer community that supports it. And I think that's testament to the power of that. For me, personally, if I were to kind of go back five years, you know, I'm grateful to say there isn't a whole lot I would necessarily change. But I think if there's anything that I would, it would just to be consistently more brave in sharing ideas, right? I think Merico has done a great job, and it's something I'm so proud of for us as a team of really embracing new ideas and really kind of making sure, like, best idea ships, right? There isn't a title. There isn't a level of seniority that determines whether or not someone has a right to suggest something or improve something. And I think with that in mind, for me as a technical person but not a member of technical staff, so to speak, I think there was many occasions, for me personally, where I felt like, okay, maybe because of that, I shouldn't necessarily weigh in on certain things. And I think what I've found, and it's a trust-building thing as well, is, like, even if you're wrong, even if your suggestion may be misunderstands something or isn't quite on target, there's still a tremendous amount of value in just being able to share a perspective and share a recommendation and push it out there. And I think with that in mind, like, it's something I would encourage myself and encourage everybody else in a healthy company to feel comfortable to just keep sharing because, ultimately, it's an accuracy-by-volume game to a certain degree, right? Where if I come up with one idea, then I've got one swing at the bat. But if us as a collective come up with 100 ideas that we consider intelligently, we've got a much higher chance of maybe a handful of those really pushing us forward. So, for me, that would be advice I would give myself and to anybody else. HENRY: I'll follow the same structure, so I'll start by the advice in terms of company and advice to myself as an individual. So, for a company level, I think my advice would be fail fast because every company needs to go through this exploration phase trying to find their product-market fit, and then they will have to test, you know, a couple of ideas before they find the right fit for themselves, the same for us. And I wish that we actually had more in terms of structure in exploring these ideas and set deadlines, you know, set milestones for us to quickly test and filter out bad ideas and then accelerate the exploration process. So, fail fast would be my suggestion at the company level. From an individual level, I would say it's more adapting to my CTO role because when I started the company, I still had that, you know, graduate student hustle mindset. I love writing code myself. And it's okay if I spent 100% of my time writing code when the company was, you know, at five people, right? But it's not okay [chuckles] when we have, you know, a team of 40 engineers. So, I wish I had that realization earlier, and I transitioned to a real CTO role earlier, focusing more, like, on technical evangelism or building out the technical and non-technical infrastructure to help my engineering teams be successful. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that. And is there anything else that you all would like to promote today? HENRY: So if you're, you know, engineering leaders who are looking to measure, you know, some metrics and adopt a more data-driven approach to improving your software delivery performance, check out Apache DevLake. It's open-source project, free to use, and it has some great dashboards, support, various data resources. And join our community. We have a pretty vibrant community on Slack. And there are a lot of developers and engineering leaders discussing how they can get more value out of data and metrics and improve software delivery performance. MAXIM: Yeah. And I think to add to that, something I think we've found consistently is there's plenty of data skeptics out there, rightfully so. I think a lot of analytics of every kind are really not very good, right? And so, I think people are rightfully frustrated or even traumatized by them. And for the data skeptics out there, I would invite them to dive into the DevLake community and pose your challenges, right? If you think this stuff doesn't make sense or you have concerns about it, come join the conversation because I think that's really where the most productive discussions end up coming from is not from people mutually high-fiving each other for a successful implementation of DORA. But the really exciting moments come from the people in the community who are challenging it and saying like, "You know what? Like, here's where I don't necessarily think something is useful or I think could be improved." And it's something that's not up to us as individuals to either bless or to deny. That's where the community gets really exciting is those discussions. So, I would say, if you're a data skeptic, come and dive in, and so long as you're respectful, challenge it. And by doing so, you'll hopefully not only help yourself but really help everybody, which is what I love about this stuff so much. JOE: I'm curious, does Merico use Merico? HENRY: Yes. We've been dogfooding ourself a lot. And a lot of the product improvement ideas actually come from our own dogfooding process. For example, there was one time that we look at a dashboard that has this issue change lead time. And then we found our issue, change lead time, you know, went up in the past few month. And then, we were trying to interpret whether that's a good thing or a bad thing because just looking at a single metric doesn't tell us the story behind the change in the metrics. So, we actually improved the dashboard to include some, you know, covariates of the metrics, some other related metrics to help explain the trend of the metric. So yeah, dogfooding is always useful in improving product. VICTORIA: That's great. Well, thank you all so much for joining. I really enjoyed our conversation. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneursSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

If you missed the first and second episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipants and founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito of Goodz, you can listen to the first episode and the second episode to catch up! Lindsey Christensen, head of marketing at thoughtbot is joined by Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito, co-founders of the startup Goodz, and Danny Kim, Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot. Mike and Chris discuss the progress of Goodz, focusing on the recent intense weeks they've had. Goodz, a startup merging the digital and physical worlds of music, has stayed on course with its initial concept. Mike details their approach to Thanksgiving and the launch of their e-commerce experiment. He shares insights from recent user interviews, which have influenced their approach and understanding of their target audience. When the discussion turns to the challenges of launching and maintaining their e-commerce platform, Mike and Chris talk about learning from analytics, marketing strategies, and the importance of understanding consumer behavior. They discuss the challenges in balancing short-term and long-term goals, and the upcoming fundraising efforts. Transcript: LINDSEY: Thanks for being here. My name's Lindsey. I head up marketing at thoughtbot. If you haven't joined one of these before, we are checking in with two of the founders who are going through the thoughtbot Startup Incubator to learn how it's going, what's new, what challenges they're hitting, and what they're learning along the way. If you're not familiar with thoughtbot, we're a product design and development consultancy, and we hope your team and your product become a success. And one way we do that is through our startup incubator. So, today, we are joined by our co-founders, Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito, Co-Founders of the startup Goodz. And we also have another special guest today, Danny Kim, from the thoughtbot side, Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot. So, I think, to start off, we'll head over to the new face, the new voice that we've got with us today. Danny, tell us a little bit about your role at thoughtbot and, specifically, the incubator. DANNY: Yeah, sure. First of all, thanks for having me on, and thanks for letting me join in on all the fun. I'm one of the product managers at thoughtbot. I typically work for the Lift-Off team. We usually work with companies that are looking to, like, go into market with their first version MVP. They might have a product that exists and that they're already kind of doing well with, and they kind of want to jump into a new segment. We'll typically work with companies like that to kind of get them kicked off the ground. But it's been really awesome being part of the incubator program. It's my first time in helping with the market validation side. Definitely also, like, learning a lot from this experience [laughs] for myself. Coming at it specifically from a PM perspective, there's, like, so much variation usually in product management across the industry, depending on, like, what stage of the product that you're working in. And so, I'm definitely feeling my fair share of impostor syndrome here. But it's been really fun to stretch my brand and, like, approach problems from, like, a completely different perspective and also using different tools. But, you know, working with Mike and Chris makes it so much easier because they really make it feel like you're part of their team, and so that definitely goes a long way. LINDSEY: It just goes to show everyone gets impostor syndrome sometimes [laughter], even senior product managers at thoughtbot [laughter]. Thanks for that intro. It's, you know, the thoughtbot team learns along the way, too, you know, especially if usually you're focused on a different stage of product development. Mike, it's been only three weeks or a very long three weeks since last we checked in with you, kind of forever in startup time. So, I think the last time, we were just getting to know you two. And you were walking us through the concept, this merging of the digital and physical world of music, and how we interact with music keepsakes or merchandise. How's my pitch? MIKE: Good. Great. You're killing it. [laughter] LINDSEY: And has anything major changed to that concept in the last three weeks? MIKE: No. I mean, I can't believe it's only been three weeks. It feels like it's been a long time since we last talked. It's been an intense three weeks, for sure. No, it's been going really well. I mean, we launched all sorts of stuff. I'm trying to think of anything that's sort of fundamentally changed in terms of the plan itself or kind of our, yeah, what we've been working on. And I think we've pretty much stayed the course to sort of get to where we are now. But it's been really intensive. I think also having sort of Thanksgiving in there, and we were kind of pushing to get something live right before the Thanksgiving break. And so, that week just felt, I mean, I was just dead by, you know, like, Thursday of Thanksgiving. I think we all were. So, it's been intense, I would say, is the short answer. And I'm happy, yeah, to get into kind of where things are at. But big picture, it's been an intense three weeks. LINDSEY: That's cool. And when we talked, you were, you know, definitely getting into research and user interviews. Have those influenced any, you know, changes along the way in the plan? MIKE: Yeah. They've been really helpful. You know, we'd never really done that before in any of the sort of past projects that we've worked on together. And so, I think just being able to, you know, read through some of those scripts and then sit through some of the interviews and just kind of hearing people's honest assessment of some things has been really interesting. I'm trying to think if it's materially affected anything. I guess, you know, at first, we were, like, we kind of had some assumptions around, okay, let's try to find, like...adult gift-givers sounds like the wrong thing, adults who give gifts as, like, a persona. The idea that, like, you know, maybe you gift your siblings gifts, and then maybe this could be a good gift idea. And I think, you know, we had a hard time kind of finding people to talk in an interesting way about that. And I think we've kind of realized it's kind of a hard persona to kind of chop up and talk about, right, Chris? I don't know [crosstalk 04:55] CHRIS: Well, it also seemed to, from my understanding of it, it seemed to, like, genuinely stress out the people who were being interviewed... MIKE: [laughs] CHRIS: Because it's kind of about a stressful topic [inaudible 05:03], you know, and, like, especially -- LINDSEY: Why? [laughs] CHRIS: Well, I think, I don't know, now I'm making assumptions. Maybe because we're close to the holiday season, and that's a topic in the back of everybody's mind. But yeah, Danny, would you disagree with that? Those folks, from what we heard, seemed like they were the most difficult to kind of extract answers from. But then, if the subject changed and we treated them as a different persona, several of those interviews proved to be quite fruitful. So, it's just really interesting. DANNY: Yeah. It really started, like, you kind of try to get some answers out of people, and there's, like, some level of people trying to please you to some extent. That's just, like, naturally, how it starts. And you just, like, keep trying to drill into the answers. And you just keep asking people like, "So, what kind of gifts do you give?" And they're just like, "Oh my goodness, like, I haven't thought about buying gifts for my sister in [laughs], like, you know, in forever. And now, like [laughs], I don't know where to go." And they get, like, pretty stressed out about it. But then we just kind of started shifting into like, "All right, cool, never mind about that. Like, do you like listening to music?" And they're like, "Yes." And then it just kind of explodes from there. And they're like, "This last concert that I went to..." and all of this stuff. And it was much more fruitful kind of leaning more towards that, actually, yeah. LINDSEY: That's fascinating. I guess that speaks to, especially at this stage and the speed and the amount of interviews you're doing, the need for being, like, really agile in those interviews, and then, like, really quickly applying what you're learning to making the next one even more valuable. MIKE: Yeah. And I think, you know, like, we launched just a little sort of website experiment or, like, an e-commerce experiment right before Thanksgiving. And I think now, you know, we're able to sort of take some of those learnings from those interviews and apply them to both sort of our ad copy itself but also just different landing pages in different language on the different kind of versions of the site and see if we can find some resonance with some of these audience groups. So, it's been interesting. LINDSEY: Are you still trying to figure out who that early adopter audience is, who that niche persona is? MIKE: I think we -- CHRIS: Yes, we are. I think we have a good idea of who it is. And I think right now we're just trying to figure out really how to reach those people. That, I think, is the biggest challenge right now for us. MIKE: Yeah. With the e-commerce experiment it was sort of a very specific niche thing that is a little bit adjacent to what I think we want to be doing longer term with Goodz. And so, it's weird. It's like, we're in a place we're like, oh, we really want to find the people that want this thing. But also, this thing isn't necessarily the thing that we think we're going to make longer term, so let's not worry too hard about finding them. You know what I mean? It's been an interesting sort of back and forth with that. CHRIS: From the interviews that we conducted, you know, we identified three key personas. Most of them have come up, but I'll just relist them. There's the sibling gift giver. There was the merch buyers; these are people who go to concerts and buy merchandise, you know, T-shirts, albums, records, things along those lines to support the artists that they love. And then the final one that was identified we gave the title of the 'Proud Playlister'. And these are people who are really into their digital media platforms, love making playlists, and love sharing those playlists with their friends. And that, I would say, the proud playlister is really the one that we have focused on in terms of the storefront that we launched, like, the product is pretty much specifically for them. But the lessons that we're learning while making this product and trying to get this into the hands of the proud playlisters will feed into kind of the merch buyers. MIKE: Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's funny, like, this week is kind of a poignant week for this, right? Because it's the week that Spotify Wrapped launched, right? So, it's like, in the course of any given year, it's probably, like, the one week of the year that lots and lots and lots of people are thinking about playlists all of a sudden, so trying a little bit to see if we can ride that wave or just kind of dovetail with that a bit, too. LINDSEY: Absolutely. And do you want to give just, like, the really quick reminder of what the product experience is like? MIKE: Oh yeah [laughs], good call. CHRIS: This is a prototype of it. It's called the Goodz Mixtape. Basically, the idea is that you purchase one of these from us. You give us a playlist URL. We program that URL onto the NFC chip that's embedded in the Good itself. And then when you scan this Good, that playlist will come up. So, it's a really great way of you make a playlist for somebody, and you want to gift it to them; this is a great way to do that. You have a special playlist, maybe between you and a friend or you and a partner. This is a good way to commemorate that playlist, turn it into a physical thing, give that digital file value and presence in the physical world. LINDSEY: Great. Okay, so you casually mentioned this launch of an e-commerce store that happened last week. MIKE: It didn't feel casual. LINDSEY: Yeah. Why [laughter]...[inaudible 09:45] real casual. Why did you launch it? How's it going? MIKE: I don't know. Why did we launch it? I mean, well, we wanted to be able to test some assumptions. I think, you know, we wanted to get the brand out there a little bit, get our website out there, kind of introduce the concept. You know, this is a very...not that we've invented this product category, but it is a pretty obscure product category, right? And so, there's a lot of sort of consumer education that I think that has to go on for people to wrap their heads around this and why they'd want this. So, I think we wanted to start that process a little bit correctly, sort of in advance of a larger launch next year, and see if we could find some early community around this. You know, if we can find those core people who just absolutely love this, and connect with it, and go wild around it, then those are the people that we're going to be able to get a ton of information from and build for that persona, right? It's like, cool, these are the people who love this. Let's build more for them and go find other people like this. So, I think, for us, it was that. And then, honestly, it was also just, you know, let's test our manufacturing and fulfillment and logistics capabilities, right? I mean, this is...as much as we are a B2B, you know, SaaS platform or that's what we envision the future of Goodz being, there is a physical component of this. And, you know, we do have that part basically done at this point. But we just, you know, what is it like to order 1,000 of these? What is it like to put these in the mail to people and, you know, actually take orders? And just some of that processing because we do envision a more wholesale future where we're doing, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of this at a time. And so, I think we just want to button up and do some dry runs before we get to those kinds of numbers. CHRIS: I think it also it's important to remember that we are talking in startup time. And while this last week seems like an eternity, it's been a week [laughs] that we've had this in place. So, we're just starting to learn these things, and we plan on continuing to do so. MIKE: Yeah. But I think we thought that getting a website up would be a good way to just start kind of testing everything more. LINDSEY: Great. Danny, what went into deciding what would be in this first version of the site and the e-commerce offering? DANNY: I mean, a lot of it was kind of mostly driven by Chris and Mike. They kind of had a vision and an idea of what they wanted to sell. Obviously, from the user interviews, we were starting to hone in a little bit more and, like, we had some assumptions going into it. I think we ultimately did kind of feel like, yeah, I think, like, the playlisters seem to be, like, the target market. But just hearing it more and hearing more excitement from them was definitely just kind of like, yeah, I think we can double down on this piece. But, ultimately, like, in terms of launching the e-commerce platform, and the storefront, and the website, like, just literally looking at the user journey and being like, how does a user get from getting onto a site, like, as soon as they land there to, like, finishing a purchase? And what points do they need? What are the key things that they need to think through and typically will run into? And a lot of it is just kind of reflecting on our own personal buyer behavior. And, also, as we were getting closer to the launch, starting to work through some of those assumptions about buyer behavior. As we got there, we obviously had some prototypes. We had some screenshots that we were already working with. Like, the design team was already starting to build out some of the site. And so, we would just kind of show it to them, show it to our users, and just be like, hey, like, how do you expect to purchase this? Like, what's the next step that you expect to take? And we'd just kind of, like, continue to iterate on that piece. And so... LINDSEY: Okay. So you were, before launching, even showing some of those mockups and starting to incorporate them in the user interviews. DANNY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we tried to get it in there in front of them as early as possible, partially because, like, at some point in the user interviews, like, you're mostly just trying to first understand, like, who are our target customers? Who are these people? And we have an assumption of or an idea of who we think they are. But really, like, once you start talking to people, you kind of are, like, okay, like, this thing that I thought maybe it wasn't so accurate, or, like, the way that they're kind of talking about these products doesn't 100% match what I originally walked into this, you know, experiment with. And so, we, like, start to hone in on that. But after a certain point, you kind of get that idea and now you're just like, okay, you seem to be, like, the right person to talk to. And so, if I were to show you this thing, do you get it, right? Like, do you understand what's happening? Like, how to use this thing, what this product even does. And then also, like, does the checkout experience feel intuitive for you? Is it as simple as, like, I just want to buy a T-shirt? So, like, I'm just going to go by the T-shirt, pick a size, and, you know, move on with my life. Can we make it as seamless as that? LINDSEY: And so, you mentioned it's only been a week since it's been live. Have you been able to learn anything from it yet? And how are you trying to drive people to it today? MIKE: Yeah, I think we learned that sales is hard [laughs] and slow, and it takes some time. But it's good, and we're learning a lot. I mean, it's been a while since I've really dug deep in, like, the analytics and marketing kind of metrics. And so, we've got all the Google Tag Manager stuff, you know, hooked up and just, you know, connecting with just exploring, honestly, like the TikTok advertising platform, and the YouTube Pre-Rolls, and Shorts. And, like, a lot of stuff that I actually, since the last time I was heavily involved in this stuff, is just totally new and different. And so, it's been super interesting to see the funnel and sort of see where people are getting in the site, where people are dropping off. You know, we had an interesting conversation in our thoughtbot sync yesterday or the day before, where we were seeing how, you know, we're getting lots of people to the front page and, actually, a good number of people to the product page, and, actually, like, you know, not the worst number of people to the cart. But then you were seeing really high cart abandonment rates. And then, you know, when you start Googling, and you're like, oh, actually, everybody sees very high cart abandonment rates; that's just a thing. But we were seeing, like, the people were viewing their cart seven or eight times, and they were on there sort of five times as long as they were on any other page. And it's this problem that I think Danny is talking about where, you know, we need to actually get a playlist URL. This gets into the minutiae of what we're building, but basically like, we need to get them to give us a playlist URL in order to check out, right? And so, you sort of have to, like, put yourself back in the mind of someone who's scrolling on Instagram, and they see this as an ad, and they click it, and they're like, oh, that thing was cool. Sure, I will buy one of those. And then it's like, no, actually, you need to, you know, leave this, go into a different app, find a play...like, it suddenly just puts a lot of the mental strain. But it's a lot. It's a cognitive load, greater than, as you said, just buying a T-shirt and telling what size you want. So, thinking through ways to really trim that down, shore up the amount of time people are spending on a cart. All that stuff has been fascinating. And then just, like, the different demographic kind of work that we're using, all the social ads platforms to kind of identify has been really interesting. It's still early. But, actually, like, Chris and I were just noticing...we were just talking right before this call. Like, we're actually starting to get, just in the last 12 hours, a bunch more, a bunch, but more people signing up to our email newsletter, probably in the last 12 hours that we have in the whole of last week. Yeah, I don't know, just even that sort of learning, it's like, oh, do people just need time with a thing, or they come back and they think about it? CHRIS: Yeah. Could these people be working on their playlists? That's a question that I have. MIKE: [chuckles] Yeah, me too. CHRIS: It's like, you know, I'm making a playlist to drop into this product. It's really interesting. And I think it gives insight to kind of, you know, how personal this product could be, that this is something that takes effort on the part of the consumer because they're making something to give or to keep for themselves, which is, I think, really interesting but definitely hard, too. DANNY: Yeah. And I also want to also clarify, like, Chris just kind of said it, like, especially for viewers and listeners, like, that's something that we've been hearing a lot from user interviews, too, right? Like, the language that they're using is, like, this is a thing that I care about. Like it's a representation of who I am. It's a representation of, like, the relationship that I have with this person that I'm going to be giving, you know, this gift to or this playlist to, specifically, like, people who feel, like, really passionate about these things. And, I mean, like, I did, too. Like, when I was first trying to, like, date, my wife, like, I spent, like, hours, hours trying to pick the coolest songs that I thought, you know, were like, oh, like, she's going to think I'm so cool because, like, I listen to these, like, super low-key indie rock bands, and, like, you know, so many more hours than she probably spent listening to it. But that's [laughs] kind of, like, honestly, what we heard a lot in a lot of these interviews, so... LINDSEY: Yeah, same. No, totally resonates. And I also went to the site this week, and I was like, oh damn, this is cool. Like, and immediately it was like, oh, you know, I've got these three, you know, music friends that we go to shows together. I'm like, oh, this would be so cool to get them, you know, playlists of, like, music we've seen together. So, you might see me in the cart. I won't abandon it. MIKE: Please. I would love that. CHRIS: Don't think about it too long if you could -- [laughter]. LINDSEY: I won't. I won't. CHRIS: I mean, I would say I'm really excited about having the site not only as a vehicle for selling some of these things but also as a vehicle for just honing our message. It's like another tool that we have in our arsenal. During the user interviews themselves, we were talking in abstract terms, and now we have something concrete that we can bounce off people, which is, I think, going to be a huge boon to our toolset as we continue to refine and define this product. MIKE: Yeah, that's a good point. LINDSEY: Yeah. You mentioned that they're signing up for, like, email updates. Do you have something you're sending out? Or are you kind of just creating a list? Totally fine, just building a list. MIKE: [laughs] No. CHRIS: It's a picture of Mike and I giving a big thumbs up. That's, yeah. [laughter] MIKE: No. But maybe...that was the thing; I was like, oh great, they're signing up. And I was like, gosh, they're signing up. Okay [laughter], now we got to write something. But we will. LINDSEY: Tips to making your playlist [crosstalk 19:11] playing your playlist -- MIKE: Yeah [crosstalk 19:13]. CHRIS: Right. And then also...tips to making your playlists. Also, we're advancing on the collectible side of things, too. We are, hopefully, going to have two pilot programs in place, one with a major label and one with a major artist. And we're really excited about that. LINDSEY: Okay. That's cool. I assume you can't tell us very much. What can you tell us? MIKE: Yeah. We won't mention names [chuckles] in case it just goes away, as these things sometimes do. But yeah, there's a great band who's super excited about these, been around for a long time, some good name recognition, and a very loyal fan base. They want to do sort of a collection of these. I think maybe we showed the little...I can't remember if we showed the little crates that we make or not, but basically, [inaudible 19:52] LINDSEY: The last time, yeah. MIKE: So, they want to sell online a package that's, you know, five or six Goodz in a crate, which I think will be cool and a great sort of sales experiment. And then there's a couple of artists that we're going to do an experiment with that's through their label that's more about tour...basically, giving things away on tour. So, they're going to do some giveaway fan club street team-style experiments with some of these on the road. So, first, it's ideal, provided both those things happen, because we definitely want to be exploring on the road and online stuff. And so, this kind of lets us do both at once and get some real learnings as to kind of how people...because we still don't know. We haven't really put these in people's hands yet. And it's just, like, are people scanning these a lot? Are they not? Is this sort of an object that's sitting on their shelf? Is it...yeah, it's just, like, there's so much we're going to learn once we get these into people's hands. LINDSEY: Do you have the infrastructure to sort of see how many times the cards are scanned? CHRIS: Mm-hmm. Yep, we do. MIKE: Yeah. So, we can see how many times each one is scanned, where they're scanned, that sort of thing. CHRIS: Kind of our next step, and something we were just talking about today with the thoughtbot team, is building out kind of what the backend will be for this, both for users and also for labels and artists. That it will allow them to go in and post updates to the Goodz, to allow them to use these for promotion as people, you know, scan into them to give them links to other sites related to the artists that they might be interested in before they move on to the actual musical playlist. So, that's kind of the next step for us. And knowing how users use these collectibles, both the kind of consumer Good and the artist collectibles that we were just talking about, will help inform how we build that platform. LINDSEY: Very cool. And right now, the online store itself that's built in Shopify? MIKE: Yeah. The homepage is Webflow that Kevin from the thoughtbot team really spearheaded in building for us. And then, yeah, the e-commerce is Shopify. LINDSEY: Y'all have been busy. MIKE: [laughs] LINDSEY: Is there anything else maybe that I haven't asked about yet that we should touch on in terms of updates or things going on with the product? MIKE: I don't know. I don't think so. I think, like Chris said, I mean, we're just...like, now that the site has kind of stood up and we're really switched over to kind of marketing and advertising on that, definitely digging into the backend of this kind of SaaS platform that's going to probably be a big focus for the rest of the, you know, the program, to be honest. Yeah, just some other things we can do on the next front that could eventually build into the backend that I think can be interesting. No, I guess [laughs] the short answer is no, nothing, like, substantial. Those are the big [crosstalk 22:26] LINDSEY: Yeah. Well, that was my next question, too, which is kind of like, what's next, or what's the next chunk of work? So, it's obviously lots more optimization and learning on the e-commerce platform, and then this other mega area, which is, you know, what does this look like as a SaaS solution? What's the vision? But also, where do we start? Which I'm sure, Danny, is a lot of work that you specialize in as far as, like, scoping how to approach these kinds of projects. DANNY: Yeah. And it's interesting because, I mean, we were just talking about this today. Like, part of it is, like, we can, like, really dig into, like, the e-commerce site and, like, really nailing it down to get it to the place where it's like, we're driving tons more traffic and also getting as low of a, like, cart abandonment rate as possible, right? But also, considering the fact that this is in the future, like, large-scale vision. And there's, like, also, like, we're starting to, I think, now iron out a lot of those, like, milestones where we're kind of like, okay, like, we got, like, a short-term vision, which is, like, the e-commerce site. We got a mid-term vision and a potential long-term vision. How do we validate this long-term vision while also still like, keeping this short-term vision moving forward? And, like, this mid-term vision is also going to, like, help potentially, either, like, steer us towards that long-term or maybe even, like, pivot us, like, into a completely different direction. So, like, where do you put your card, right? Like, how much energy and time do we put into, like, each of these areas? And that's kind of, like, the interesting part of this is starting to talk through that, starting to kind of prioritize, like, how we can maximize on our effort, like, our development and design effort so that things just kind of line up more naturally and organically for our future visioning, so... MIKE: Yeah. A lot of different things to juggle. I saw there was a question. Somebody asked what the URL is, but I don't seem to be able to [crosstalk 24:10]. LINDSEY: The same question as me. We got to drop the link for this thing. MIKE: Yeah, getthegoodz.com. CHRIS: That's G-O-O-D-Z. LINDSEY: Get in there, folks MIKE: Yeah, get [crosstalk 24:23]. LINDSEY: And let us know how it goes. MIKE: Yeah, please [laughs]. Any bugs? Let us know. Yeah. I think that those...yeah, I mean, it's a good point, Danny, in terms of juggling kind of the near-term and longer-term stuff. You know, it's a good kind of reminder our big focus, you know, in the new year is going to be fundraising, right? We're already talking to some investors and things like that. So, it's like, okay, yes, as you said, we could tweak the cart. We could tweak the e-commerce. Or, like, can we paint the big picture of what the longer-term version of this company is going to be in a way that makes it compelling for investment to come in so that there can be a long-term version of this company? And then we can build those things. So yeah, it's definitely a balance between the two. LINDSEY: Oh, also, just casual fundraising as well. [crosstalk 25:06] MIKE: Yeah, yeah. LINDSEY: [laughs] MIKE: But it's hard. It's like, you wake up in the morning. It's like, do I want to, like, write cold emails to investors? Or do I want to, like, look at Google Analytics and, like, tweak ad copy? That's actually more fun. So, yes. LINDSEY: Yeah, life of the founder, for sure. All right. So, that's getthegoodz (Goodz with a z) .com. Check it out. We'll tune in and see what happens with the e-commerce site, what happens with the SaaS planning the next time that we check in. But Chris, Mike, Danny, thank you so much for joining today and sharing what's been going on over the last few weeks: the good, the bad, the challenge, the cart abandonment. And, you know, best of luck to you over the next few weeks, and we'll be sure to check in and see how it's going. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guests: Chris Cerrito, Joe Ferris, Jordyn Bonds, and Mike Rosenthal.Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

Wendy Lawson is the Founder and CEO of Exhale Lung Rehabilitation, a company offering online lung rehabilitation and remote therapeutic monitoring services. Wendy's extensive background in chronic disease epidemiology, respiratory therapy, and her role with the American Lung Association have been pivotal in her mission to address the gaps in lung rehabilitation accessibility. She discusses the challenges faced in making lung rehabilitation widely available, especially in rural areas, and the exacerbated need for such services during the COVID-19 pandemic. Exhale leverages technology to offer personalized rehabilitation programs, making them accessible to a wider audience regardless of their geographic location. This approach has significantly impacted the quality of life for individuals with lung diseases, especially in a time when remote services have become more crucial than ever. The conversation also touches upon the technical and business aspects of running Exhale where Wendy candidly shares the challenges and pivots in the early stages of the company, from developing proprietary algorithms to realizing the need for a scalable and efficient technological platform. This journey of continuous improvement and adaptation is a testament to her commitment to her mission. The episode concludes with a discussion on the future of lung rehabilitation, the potential changes in healthcare policies, and Wendy's unwavering commitment to improving the lives of those with lung diseases. Exhale Lung Rehabilitation Follow Exhale Lung Rehabilitation on Facebook, Instagram, or X. Follow Wendy Lawson on LinkedIn. Follow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn. Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Wendy Lawson, Founder and CEO of Exhale Lung Rehabilitation, which provides online lung rehabilitation and remote therapeutic monitoring services. Wendy, thank you for joining us. WENDY: Thank you so much for having me. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And we like to start the show with a little warm-up introduction about ourselves. Is there anything exciting happening in your life recently that you'd like to share with our audience? WENDY: You know, I think the biggest event that has happened for my husband and I and our son and daughter is the marriage of our daughter a couple of weekends ago. So, we're really coming down off of all of the events that surrounded that wedding, and we're so excited for them to start their new life. VICTORIA: That sounds like a big activity, lots of family life all happening at a time when you are also founder and CEO. So, within that time for your wedding, did you make time or have to learn any new skills for putting on these events? WENDY: You know, it was really interesting. I did have to do a couple of skills. First of all, planning a wedding is just madness. I knew that it was going to be a big task, but after really having hands on and doing it, it was a lot. It was really fun to learn some new things. And one of the new things that I learned is really flower arrangements. I did some flower arrangements for some of the tables in a couple of the events that surrounded the wedding. And so, that was really fun, new skill. I love to learn new things. That was enlightening and fun. And I'm glad I don't have to do that as a job. [laughter] VICTORIA: Yeah, so I'm curious, how did you approach learning this new skill? What was your method? WENDY: My entire life I've loved to learn new things. And I probably approach each of those the same way, and that is get a vision for what I want, or what I want to learn, or what I want it to look like, and then do some research, find people who have done it themselves. Ask advice. Of course, YouTube is fantastic now for things like DIY. So, I definitely went to YouTube and found some experts and watched what they did and tried to mimic it, and so, I'm not sure that I got it as well as they did. But it was certainly enlightening and a lot of fun to learn. VICTORIA: I appreciate that being a lifelong learner, being excited and loving to learn new things. How has that value of loving to learn new things and being a lifelong learner served you as founder and CEO at Exhale? WENDY: Being a lifelong learner is something that, I think, started early for me, not just in my career but in my life. I've loved to learn new things. Being a founder comes with lots of unexpected pivots and turns. And I think being open and available to learn new things really furthers your business as a founder and ensures that your business is placed in a position where if you need to pivot, you can learn something new, pivot in that direction, and move on. So, I think learning not just as a founder but in any profession that you do is really a key to success for a long and successful career. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm going to ask you about your pivots. But first, tell me just how did it all get started? So, what led you to decide to start Exhale? WENDY: Yeah, well, I have a background...my graduate degree is in chronic disease epidemiology. I'm a registered respiratory therapist. I'm also a board member for the National Board of the American Lung Association. And I have really dedicated my life to dealing with those with lung disease. It is interesting in the clinical realm that you cross things that, scientifically, we know are beneficial to individuals with certain diseases. However, getting that thing out to the general population is challenging, and lung rehabilitation is one of those things. We've known for a very long time that lung rehabilitation helps people with lung disease live a more successful life and a more enjoyable life and with less symptoms. But the availability of lung rehabilitation to people that really need it is few and far between. If you live in a big city, you usually can find an in-person rehabilitation program, but due to constraints with insurance not approving people until late stages or the inability of a program to get people in because they have long waiting lists, it really has been a struggle for physicians, for clinicians, for individuals with lung disease to actually find a program and do it. And so, I really wanted to solve that problem, solve the problem of the accessibility, availability, affordability of lung rehabilitation because it's so important to people with lung disease. So, really how I started is identifying the problem of here's a big problem. We can't seem to get people effectively into lung rehabilitation. So, why don't we take use of technology and create a program that is all online and available to a person in their home, on their timeline, no matter where they live? If they live in a rural community and don't have access to a big city hospital, that it's available to them. VICTORIA: Wow, that's a really fascinating story about your background and how you discovered this problem. And, of course, you know, looking at the timeline, to me, you know, September 2020 is when you're founded. Certainly, something was happening in the world that created an even larger need for lung rehabilitation than before, right? WENDY: Yeah, I had identified the problem probably...a couple of years before that; I thought, there's got to be a way, you know, there's got to be a way that we can solve this issue of people not having access. Really, the perfect storm of people being cooped up inside—they were quarantined; people couldn't get out. All of the sudden, technology was really our means to be doing a lot of things, and seeing our physicians was one of those things. Individuals who did not have faith in online technology, or seeing physicians virtually, or going to programs virtually, all of a sudden, those fears were gone because that was really the way that you had to do things in 2020. It was the majority of the way that we talked with our loved ones. It was how we interacted with individuals, whether it was work or medical, lots of different things. And so, I really felt like the timing was right to go ahead and pull the trigger on this. And let's see if we can find a way...now that people are using technology in a very different way than they were two years prior to that, let's see if we can make this work and get this out to people who need it. And at the same time, there was a major pandemic with a viral illness that affected the lungs specifically. And so, we were going to have that many more patients that were going to need pulmonary rehabilitation on the flip side of being ill and coming out of this pandemic. So, I think it was, like I said, a perfect storm of individuals in the community receiving technology in a positive manner and then also having a pandemic that affected people with lung disease. VICTORIA: Wow, that's incredible. So, you already had identified a problem about lack of access to rehabilitation, especially in rural areas. And if people don't know that, you know, hospitals are really, even more, and so as time goes by, getting around major metropolitan areas, so people don't have access to hospitals or doctors in rural areas. And those are also probably the people who maybe need more lung rehabilitation. And then the perfect storm happened, and the pandemic and everything. It became not only the way of doing business and care–a very acceptable way of doing medical care, and also very critical in terms of, like, our national health infrastructure. WENDY: Yes, absolutely. And, you know, one other component that really propelled me into going ahead and founding this company and then figuring out a way for technology to aid us was that individual programs, even if you did live close to a program, the pandemic shut those programs down completely. Things like cardiac rehab, pulmonary rehab, were all stopped because you could not put a large amount of people in a small space together, working out, breathing hard, learning in classroom environments when they were also immunocompromised. So, the risk to the patient was very high. And so, those programs, even if you did live close to a program, in 2020, they were completely shut down. And due to individual struggles of hospitals as hospitals opened back up, financial struggles, clinical struggles on having enough staffing is still a really big problem in the medical community. And so, a lot of pulmonary rehabs did not come back, even if you lived in a large city. So, there are some rehabs that are opening back up now, but there's still that initial problem that we had, even before the pandemic, of there were not enough programs. Only about 2% of the population that can use pulmonary rehab ever got to a pulmonary rehab. And then we shut some down, and it became even worse. So, we estimate now that it's less than 2% that actually get to a pulmonary rehab if they have lung disease, and certainly, because so many more people have lung disease now on this side of the pandemic. VICTORIA: Wow, yeah. That's a really incredible story, so thank you so much for sharing that. I'm curious now to get into, like, you made the decision. You found the problem. You started the company. What were some early pivots you had to make, and what surprised you about it early in the process? WENDY: I put together a team of...I have a couple of physicians that are intensivists and focused on lung disease, a pharmacist, a couple of respiratory therapists, physical therapists, Yoga expert, nurse practitioner. So, my whole team really got together, and we decided, okay, we have to make this as close to in-person rehab as humanly possible. And the problem initially in getting pulmonary rehab out to people, is that anyone that has attempted it before did not have that initial assessment in the program that was really based on algorithms that gave them a personalized experience so that the yoga classes or the strength training classes, or the breathing classes were specific to, one, their lung disease, because there are 26, 7 different lung diseases, and, two, that was very specific to their exercise tolerance of themselves and their lung disease. Some people are on oxygen 24/7 and can't make it from the bathroom to the kitchen without sitting down in between and catching their breath. And then, other people with lung disease they can walk a mile. So, how do you make sure that the program is based on you and you're really gaining those strides based on your exercise tolerance? So, that was probably the biggest hurdle that we had to make or really decisions surrounding that, like, how do we do this? And so, creating proprietary algorithms that were then going to help us was a daunting task. It began as a bunch of sticky notes on my office wall and me staring at it going, okay, how do we figure this out? I know we can figure this out. And just having iterations of that algorithm until I got it right. The next hurdle for me was really how technology could be used to create this experience that was beneficial to the users and the clients and also that we could be proud of as clinicians because we knew that it was providing solid advice and goals, care plans for those individuals that needed it. I came from a clinical background. And so, I was not privy to all of what technology could do. And so, I had to really go out and research, how do we incorporate these things? And how do I envision, you know, the program working and maneuvering around? I initially hired a company that I thought I was communicating well what I wanted. And they were developers, so they did what I asked, but it was not scalable. And so, me I think that combination of maybe I didn't hire the right company. And then, the second thing was me not really being able to speak the technology terms and understand everything that was available so that I could outline it a little bit better. Created a product that I wasn't proud of and I knew was not scalable. And so, we had to really pivot and start again, hire a new company, and really sit down with them and say, "Okay, I want you to understand my sticky notes on my office wall. And let's really get this down before we begin to build." So, I would say probably that was my first big pivot moment. And the ups and downs of being a founder are endless. And that was definitely one of those, like, really high points where we're, okay, you know, we're at a point where I believe we can launch and then the low of realizing it is not what I wanted it to be. So, I think that was the first one. VICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that if the first product you build is something you're not proud of, then you're at least doing it right. You got something out there [laughs]. And you probably learned so much from that process, and it sounds like you applied those learnings to your next phase of the project. And now you've built something that you are proud of. WENDY: Yeah. I think a founder will continue no matter...and technology certainly is this. But I think this applies to really any business, whether it's a brick-and-mortar or anything online business. I believe that you are constantly improving. You're constantly thinking of, you know, what's version 2 going to look like? What's version 3 going to look like? What's version 25 going to look like? It's definitely a work in progress. And, you know, having something that you're very proud of, that you worked hard on, and collaborated, and really researched a lot I think that's where we are right now. We're very proud of...I am very proud of this program. And we're seeing some fantastic results. And people who have very severe lung disease and, all of a sudden, they can sit in the floor and play with their grandchildren, or they can go out and get the mail. Just to walk to the end of the block was a big deal for them but now they can do that. I hear stories all the time. Our clients love to talk to us about, "Hey, guess what I did?" And I love to hear those stories because it means what we created did the job that we created it for. And so, that's very satisfying. It doesn't mean that we won't do pivoting in the future. We certainly will. But as we see those roadblocks, or as we see the hurdles that we have to cross to make sure that this program stays true to what we want it to be, we certainly will find a way over, around, or through those roadblocks to make that happen. VICTORIA: You can hear your commitment to your mission and your drive to solve this problem in the way that you talk about it and the iterations that you're willing to keep solving it. And you mentioned that, you know, one of the issues you saw in the first iteration was about scaling. So, I was wondering if you could share more about that. Like, what did you see that made you think, oh, this isn't going to scale? Was it a technical issue? Was it the algorithm the way it was working? Or was there something else that made you think, oh, we got to redo this whole thing? [laughs] WENDY: Yeah, you know, the algorithm was working great, fantastic. It places individuals in classes that they need to be. It's very beneficial. The beta tests on our clients were actually coming out with individuals that were at least doubling their strength in a 12-week period of time, which is really unheard of. Usually, you shoot for 20 to 25% increase in their strength and ability to do things. And so, early on, we were so excited because we thought this is working. And coming out of the gates, out of our beta tests, we thought it is doing clinically what we want it to do. Now, what we saw was that the process was time-consuming on our side, on the business side, so ensuring that those clients that we looked at what they were doing, that we made sure and contacted them, and did those things. Our system was very labor-intensive. So, to get into the system and actually see what an individual person was doing, was difficult. We didn't have auto alerts that alerted our team, "Hey, this person is struggling today and probably needs a call." So, those types of things were what we really decided this is not going to be scalable. And they were not easy fixes in the system that we had created. And so, that's really why we chose to pivot and go a different direction because there was just no way to scale it because each individual client was taking so much time that it really was not feasible to be able to gain a lot of clientele without putting more resources in place than we were actually being paid. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Like, we are providers. You need to be able to make it less work for them [chuckles] and still be able to provide that quality of care to the individuals. So, it's really interesting you were able to solve for that in your next iteration. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint VICTORIA: As a company providing health and medical services, how have you navigated the industry? Clearly, you have a big background in health. But how did you get to make your business viable, considering all the bureaucratic nature of the American healthcare system? WENDY: [chuckles] Really, a part of our mission at Exhale is making pulmonary rehab accessible and affordable, and those two things are difficult in our healthcare system right now. Affordability for pulmonary rehab...just a background in what happens if you go to an in-person program, in-person programs, if you are lucky enough to have one available, and get through the waiting list, and your insurance approves you, then each time you go in, which is usually 2 to 3 times a week over an 8 to 12 week period of time, insurance will pay a portion of that, but you will have a copay each time. And a lot of times, the copays range between $15 and $30 time period. So, individuals who are on a fixed income, because we're dealing with a lot of people who are older and on Medicare, probably have a very fixed income, they cannot afford that. And often, the attrition in those programs is a big problem because, one, getting a lung patient who is carting oxygen and can't walk very far, can't walk to the end of the block, but you're asking them to park in a parking lot, walk all the way into a hospital, up the stairs, and get into the program. They're exhausted by the time or can't do that. And then they have to pay a copay each time they go in. And so, we wanted our program to be affordable and accessible. So, we created it where we did not accept insurance at first at all. Insurance does not cover online programs right now. And so we priced ours at the price of a copay per month. So, for the cost of an individual to go one week at an in-person program, they can do our 12-week program and get all the way through. So, that was really important to us to ensure that accessibility, and availability, affordability were all a part of our program and our mission. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's interesting that insurance doesn't cover online services in a time when a lot of things are [laughs] online. WENDY: It is really confounding that a service like this is not covered by insurance. Now, we did recently...there is a remote therapeutic monitoring that was available through CMS, added it to their care in 2022, to their fee schedule. We have just implemented our remote therapeutic monitoring side of our lung program. And it is specifically for those with lung disease. We help their offices, the patient's physician's office, to monitor these patients on a daily basis and then give them feedback on whether or not the patients are taking their medication, and how well they slept, and whether or not they're feeling well that day. And that way, the physician's office can intervene faster, and it keeps those individuals out of the hospital. A bonus of the Exhale program is that our lung rehab comes free to those who are enrolled in remote therapeutic monitoring. So, if you are a part of our program, then you will receive that service and the benefits of having a rehab program to you. And that's just one more way that we're making it accessible, available, and affordable to people. VICTORIA: That's really interesting and leads me to my next question, which is, what are some of the biggest hurdles that you see ahead of you in the next six months? WENDY: The biggest hurdle probably is, where is insurance going? Will it begin to cover it in the future? Because that is super important to getting people the care that they need. And then, how will Medicare and other insurance providers decide to change things? Usually, January 1st of every single year, they put out their new fee schedules. In some years, they just completely cut off services altogether. And so, what I would like to see is expansion of online services becoming reimbursable through insurance companies, and certainly that they see the value of having a service like this that is incredibly affordable, that is getting fantastic outcomes for people with severe lung disease, and giving them a better life, and keeping them out of the hospital, that they see the value in reimbursing programs like ours so that we are sustainable in the future. VICTORIA: Yeah. It seems like a win-win for everyone because it keeps your healthcare costs down when you're not going to the hospital and probably helps with all other kinds of health...like you mentioned before, how if your lungs are healthy and you're able to move, it makes your overall body much more healthier. So, what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going with the program? WENDY: As a founder, there are always times whenever you're like, okay, what are we doing here? Like, this is so hard. It's [laughs], you know, the ups and downs. And what are we doing? Maybe I just stop this and go back to the clinic. But ultimately, I think what keeps me going is hearing the stories of our clients and how much this program has affected their day-to-day life, and how appreciative they are that we have created something that they can do from home and when they did not have this service available to them previously. I spoke to someone just on Monday, and he was talking about how he had been in a difficult position. And he said, "I just channeled those lessons that you taught us, and I did my breathing techniques. And I got through it. And I just am so thankful that you guys had taught me how to do that because I don't know if I would have gotten through that situation." And those are the stories that we love to hear. We love hearing, "Hey, I was able to play with my grandchildren on Thanksgiving because of your program," or "I was able to cook for myself, and that's the first time that I have cooked for myself in three years because I can't stand there that long without being too short of breath." Those stories and talking to our clients it's why I keep doing this. It's why I get up every day and go, okay, whatever problem that we find, we're going to solve it and make this company viable long term because of those outcomes that we're seeing. VICTORIA: And what a great way to know that it does matter when you're hearing those stories. And for those individual people, that's a huge life-changing difference. WENDY: Yeah, it certainly is. And it, really, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you don't think about how important it is to just be able to walk from one room to another or be able to clean your bathtub or go get groceries. I mean, those little tasks you don't think about until you are so sick or debilitated that you can't do those things. And it means the difference in having a life that they love to live and having, you know, the resources that they need to be able to live that life. Those stories definitely keep us going and will keep us going as long as we possibly can. Because we really truly, for those that are utilizing our service, believe that we're helping them reach their goals and beyond and live the best life that they can possibly live with lung disease. VICTORIA: Oh, that's really awesome. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us today. Do you have any questions for me or for thoughtbot about anything? WENDY: You know, I think the big question for us is, do you have any users out there? Do you have anyone that is listening to this program right now that needs lung rehabilitation? Or are you a clinician, or do you know a clinician that deals with people with lung disease? We would absolutely love to talk to them and provide our services, and tell you how our outcomes are looking with the patients that we've served so far. So, I guess the big question is, do you know anyone with lung disease, and would you be willing to send them our way? VICTORIA: Oh, that's incredible. I certainly have some people in my mind who I'm like, oh, you should really introduce to this group of folks over here. I love that that's what you're working on. And is there anything else that you'd like to promote today? WENDY: Just in general, pulmonary rehabilitation is so important. And if you have an in-person program that's near you, I want to promote them, too. I want you to know that pulmonary rehab is an incredible service. And the outcomes, we have so much research that says if you do an 8 to 12-week program, that you will gain benefits from going through the program. So, whether it's our program, whether it's an in-person program, or a program at a clinic that you go to, I would just encourage anybody to take part in pulmonary rehab if you have lung disease. And certainly, if you're new to lung disease, if you're a COVID recoverer that has some fibrotic changes in your lungs that you need help navigating, then reach out to those professionals that are in pulmonary rehabilitation because they can help you definitely. And Exhale would always love to serve those, whether post-COVID, or asthma, COPD, fibrosis, pulmonary hypertension, all of those lung diseases. We are here for you, as well as other clinicians that are in this arena. VICTORIA: One person I'm thinking of works with people who are vaping a lot, really high vaping community. And I'm sure [inaudible 30:48] [laughs], yeah, I hear that in your voice. WENDY: Yeah. [laughs] VICTORIA: So that's someone I was like, maybe that'd be a good program for her to share with the people she works with because yeah...and the other...this might be, you know, I know this is a disease issue, but in San Diego, we have a lot of freedivers and people who train holding their breath for a long time. And they've been trying to get me to do that. And so, I was like, well, maybe [chuckles] I could try it and just increase my lung capacity and overall be healthy, too. WENDY: Yeah, that's a great program, too. It is interesting, too, to see a person's lung function. We have pulmonary lung function diagnostic tests that can be done in a clinic. In the pre and post-diver training, yeah, lung function changes quite a bit in your ability to expand your lungs, hold your breath, and maneuver that oxygen across the membrane so that you are able to sustain longer. So yeah, that's really interesting. And your point of vape, certainly, we have smoking cessation programs that are involved in our lung rehabilitation. If you smoke, then you get some of those classes about how do I quit smoking? But vaping is becoming a really large issue. I have given several talks in high schools recently. And certainly, with my work with the American Lung Association, American Lung Association does a fantastic job of creating supplemental materials for individuals who, you know, are working with people in that arena. And so, they've really focused on the vape epidemic recently. And so, if you are dealing with anybody, and especially the youth population, there is a wonderful toolkit that the American Lung Association has available. You can download it. There are some videos or some, like, handouts and stuff like that. Those programs are helping, especially in our schools, because there is a true epidemic with vaping right now. And, unfortunately, when the vape industry created those items, they kind of took a key out of the book from the cigarette companies and promoted it as some, you know, health benefit. And what we're finding on the flip side in all of the diagnostic testing is it's just as bad as cigarettes. And it's creating a really big problem, especially if they're starting early, 14-15 years old, and their lungs are not developed all the way yet. It is not just water vapor, like they say. It is some very serious, toxic chemicals that they're inhaling, and it has some long-term effects that are going to create some fibrotic changes in the lungs long term. So, as you mentioned, you know, the vape industry, I'm definitely a proponent of preventing people from getting vape products and preventing youth from having access to that. VICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. It's a big problem. And I'm excited to see how Exhale and other people are working together to kind of get that message out and solve those problems. So, I appreciate you coming on this show today and sharing all of that with me. WENDY: I would really love to say thank you so much for considering me and considering Exhale for your program. I always love an opportunity to talk about it. You can tell that I'm very passionate about Exhale and what we're providing, and so thanks so much for letting me come on today. I really appreciate it. It was wonderful to meet you. VICTORIA: Wonderful to meet you as well. And I really enjoyed hearing your story and hearing all about the great work you're doing. So, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guest: Wendy Lawson.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment, but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprintSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

Mac Reddin is the CEO of Commsor. He discusses Commsor's evolution from community-led growth software to a go-to-network model, emphasizing the importance of various overlapping networks in a company's ecosystem. He shares his journey from running a Minecraft-based company as a teenager to founding Commsor, which initially began as a newsletter and evolved into a community and then a product. Mac stresses the effectiveness of authentic community building and relationship-based growth over traditional sales and marketing strategies. He criticizes cold calling and email tactics, advocating for genuine interactions and relationship-building. Commsor’s approach, including personal onboarding of every user and fostering a company culture where employees are encouraged to express their individuality and interests, has shown success and satisfaction internally and in the market. Chad reflects on his experiences at thoughtbot, aligning with Reddin's perspective on community and user-centric approaches. He emphasizes trust and freedom within his team, allowing for authentic individual contributions to the company's growth and reputation. Together, they discuss the importance of personal connections in business and how modern sales tactics might need reevaluation in favor of more genuine, relationship-based approaches. Commsor Follow Commsor on LinkedIn or X. Follow Mac Reddin on LinkedIn, GitHub, or X. Visit his website at macredd.in. Follow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn. Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me as co-host today is Sally Ladrach, Revenue Enablement Manager at thoughtbot, great company I've heard of. Sally, thank you for joining. SALLY: Yeah, thanks for having me on. CHAD: And also joining us today is Mac Reddin, Founder and CEO of Commsor, which builds tools to help individuals and companies of all sizes grow faster, more authentically, and more sustainably through the power of go-to-network. Mac, thanks for joining us. MAC: Thanks for having me. CHAD: Mac, can you tell us a little bit more about what Commsor is and how you sort of arrived at creating it? MAC: I struggle to do that every time someone asks me. It's always, like, a slightly different answer. So, we're about four years old now. But we kind of pivoted, soft pivoted, depending on how you want to look at it, into what we're doing now at the beginning of this year. So, we're kind of not that new and very new, depending on what perspective you look at. We were originally building what we called community-led growth software. So, we were helping companies measure their community as an intentional part of their go-to-market initiative. And there's a whole rabbit hole on why we changed, and how we changed, and how we ended up where we are now. But I think go-to-network is sort of an evolution of community-led from this realization that companies don't have a singular community. They might have a, you know, a forum, or a Slack, or a community manager, and there's, like, it's very easy to be like, that is their community. But in reality, there's influencers, investors, creators, advisors, personal brands, executives, champions, customers, community members, like, all these different overlapping networks, hence go-to-network, that actually make up this sort of ecosystem that enables a company to thrive. CHAD: Now, did you have a community, or, like, did it grow from something, or did you just have the idea? MAC: I started my first company when I was 17; built on top of Minecraft, and it was very community-centric, and I didn't really realize at the time. But I got lucky enough to sell that business. And, you know, after looking back at all the hats I've worn running a, you know, a tiny, bootstrapped company, I realized the community management part had been what I enjoyed the most and that the community part had been the kind of competitive advantage of that business. And that sent me down a path of thinking about community and business more intentionally after having kind of stumbled into it as a, I guess, late teenager. So, Commsor started...originally, I knew I wanted to build something in the community space. So, we actually started...it started as a newsletter, actually. It was a substack called Community Chat Weekly, which was just, like, an aggregation newsletter as I was, like, doing research into the more professional community world. And then it became a small Slack community, which then became the community club. And Commsor, as a product, was born out of building a community for community people and just diving headfirst into that world. SALLY: So much community, I love it [laughs]. MAC: Yeah. I try to say, like, a couple of different words, like world or something instead of community. SALLY: [laughs] MAC: And just, like, we used to joke that we were a community company for community people, by community people, with a community of community people. CHAD: [laughs] MAC: I was, like, just too much of the same word [laughs]. SALLY: I love that. So, it's interesting. One of the reasons why I really wanted to get you and Chad together, in particular, is because the whole go-to-network motion that you're so passionate about and that you've built this product around very closely aligns with how Chad has really led and grown thoughtbot over the last 20 years. And I thought it would be so cool to bring those perspectives together. And one of the things that you mentioned around community was that it gave you a competitive advantage. I'm curious to know, Chad, does that resonate with you? Have you seen that in thoughtbot over the last, you know, couple of decades as you've been doing this? CHAD: Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the things that is my sort of go-to talking points, both at conferences and that kind of thing, is that one thing that has been really a big part of thoughtbot's success is being willing to be clear about who we were and what we believe. And when we do that, then the people who want what we have and believe what we believe and are excited by that can find us and, you know, follow us. And, eventually, when they're in a position to need help, we're top of mind. And this idea, I think, holds back a lot of companies because you think your market is the total addressable market. And the reality is you're never going to work with the total addressable market. So, you're better off finding the people who believe what you believe in your niche and your community. And being that big fish in that small pond has been really beneficial for us. SALLY: That's awesome. Yeah, I think it was kind of a culture shock, honestly, coming to thoughtbot because I had been so immersed in sort of the SaaS world and the mass outreach, cold outreach, sort of, I want to say, traditional go-to-market motion that's been used over the last ten years. And I came here, and there were so many things that thoughtbot did or didn't do that I just was honestly kind of shocked, you know, as an example, not using third-party cookies on our website [laughs]. And, Mac, when we were talking, it sounded like you're also doing some of those things that we joked might make a CRO cry [laughs]. So, I was curious to ask what some of those things were and see how that kind of matches up to what thoughtbot is doing in our approach, too. I'd be curious to know. MAC: There are so many things. I mean, I get CROs all the time, not, like, yelling at me, but I get the whole like, "Young man, you don't understand how sales works," type comments all the time. I got one recently that was, "Don't talk about sales until you've sold in a recession." It was like, what do you think we've [laughter] been doing the last 18 months? But okay. But yeah, so we don't do cold calls. We don't do cold emails. We don't do any of that traditional stuff that software companies do. And I guess you all as a, you know, more of a, like, service-based product, as a founder building a software-based product, more than half of the cold outbound I get is, like, developer agencies and stuff like that. It's, like, the classic scourge of outbound in a lot of ways, right? So, there's an element of, like, zigging when everyone else zags. And one of my favorite stats...I can't remember the exact number, so don't fully quote me on it. But -- CHAD: It's not like we're recording or anything. It's totally fine. [laughter] MAC: Yeah, well, I mean, I think the gist of the message is more important than the exact number. And it was a stat that there's been a 100x increase in prospecting activities over the last decade. So, for every cold email, cold call, in-mail ad impression that you would have seen ten years ago, you now get 100 as a buyer. And I always say this thing to people; I'm like, it doesn't matter how good your outreach is. You can have the best well-crafted cold email, cold call; your timing can be perfect; everything could be right: relevance, timing, everything. The problem is, increasingly, buyers have been so pissed off at the deluge of shit they've gotten for ten years that it doesn't matter. Like, my phone does not ring if I don't have your number. I am physically uncoldcallable. And I've talked to a lot of CROs, and they're like, "Well, we'll just, you know, marketing will get your lead some other way. And then they'll pass it over to us, and we'll still get to you." And it's like, okay, like, that doesn't really solve the problem. So, like, there's a lot of these weird things where sales and marketing aren't aligned. They expect each other to solve the problem for each other. They're pure volume-based, and we don't do any of that. And a lot of CROs and a lot of VPs of sales love to point out how wrong we are for that, but it's working so far. And also, it's so much more enjoyable to build a company that way. Like, our salespeople, our SDRs, and all that stuff, they don't hate their jobs. They're not, like, sticking their face to the grindstone every morning and being like, "Oh yeah, I got to play pump-up music before I go to work. Otherwise, I'm not going to get through the day." It just creates a better work environment. It's better for us. It's better for the buyers. It's better all the way around. CHAD: So, for thoughtbot, I know that a lot of this has come naturally for us because, as developers and designers, we've produced a lot of open source that flows from our work that then builds community around it. We write on a blog, which we're very fortunate to have a lot of people read over the years, which fosters reputation for us and community around it. But what does that look like for other companies who maybe aren't, like, an agency like us doing that kind of thing? What are the kinds of things that it looks like? MAC: I think you hit the nail on the head earlier when you said it's about, like, showing off who you are and what you believe in and creating space so people can come to you. But in the, you know, the high growth SaaS world, the last ten years, people have not been a fan of waiting for people to come to you. It's, like, grow at all costs, blitzscale, all that sort of mentality. For us, the way it looks is...I guess an example–so, we did this sort of semi-accidental campaign on LinkedIn over the last, I guess, two and a half months with these purple hoodies. And there's a whole backstory. They were an accident, and we were like, "Shit, we have too many hoodies. What do we do with them?" So, we made a thing out of them. And we thought we were going to get 25. We ended up getting 250 [laughter]. It's a whole thing. We just started, like, we sent them to a few folks, and someone posted a photo without us asking being like, "Look at this awesome hoodie Commsor sent me." And their post went, like, insane. Like, by LinkedIn standards, it went insane. It was, like, 100 comments. Like, "How do I get one? Oh my God, I love it. It's so cool. Can I get one?" So, we just started sending them to people, like, no goals, no intention, just brand building, just building connections, building relationships. I personally, from hoodies that I can attribute, have booked over 200 calls about our product with our ICP doing that without trying to. There's almost this element of, like, by not trying to sell, it's become easier to sell. There's, like, an element of like, I'm just sending you a hoodie because I think you're cool, and I want to get to know you. And it's a fine line because I think a lot of companies try to do that. But you can always tell there's an undertone of, yeah, I'm sending you these cookies because, like, I'm really hoping you get on a sales call with me. But we genuinely were, like, we have too many hoodies. We're just trying to get rid of them. I don't want to pay to store them. Like, please, I'm begging you, please take our hoodie. SALLY: [laughs] MAC: And then, it just turned into this, like, whole FOMO game. It's like the authenticity was purely there. All in all, we spent about, including shipping, everything, like, $8,000 on hoodies, so not a tiny amount of money but also not huge by marketing budget standards. And I had a conversation with a CMO recently. He was like, "You should have just spent LinkedIn ads. That's such a waste of money. You can't track it. It's not attributable," et cetera. I was like, "We've gotten, I think, close to a million impressions on LinkedIn of people posting our hoodies talking about us. We couldn't have paid for that." So, there's, like, this whole area where it's like, if you actually just go out there and build relationships, build community, get to know people, tell them what you believe in, yeah, people will not agree with you. Like, when I say I think modern go-to-market is broken and the way people sell is broken, I get a lot of sales leaders who are like, "You're an idiot. Like, that's wrong. You objectively don't know what you're doing. You've never been a salesperson by title. Don't spread this shit." But then you get a lot of people who are like, "Yeah, you're right. It's not working. I want to hear what you have to say. I want to talk to you. I want to brainstorm with you." The amount of times that I get DMs from salespeople who are like, "Hey, I totally agree with that post you just wrote, but I can't publicly because my VP of sales is going to read me out if they see me agreeing with you. But like, yeah, this shit doesn't work anymore," like, 10 to 20 times a day, I get messages like that. SALLY: And as a consumer of LinkedIn feed, you know, I've been following Mac for a while, but also follow a couple of other folks at Commsor and people who are in their networks. I can 100% validate that the Dino Hoodie is, in fact, now a status symbol on LinkedIn. So [laughs], I thought that was, you know, brilliant. And I'm not going to lie; I had some FOMO, too. I was like, where's my Dino Hoodie? And, in fact, when I talked to Mac, I was like -- CHAD: [laughs] SALLY: I know that we just met, but can I get one of those? [laughs] CHAD: I see now. This was just a ploy to get a hoodie. MAC: I've gotten, like, reverse sales now. It's like, you know, you get pitch slapped on LinkedIn, or someone adds you, and right away, they're trying to sell to you. I've gotten that. [laughter] But they're trying to convince me to give them a hoodie. Like, somehow, we've created the reverse thing where, like, salespeople are reaching out to me to reverse pitch–so I can give them something. SALLY: That is hilarious. And I promise that was not my intention; was just to get a hoodie from you. But there's so much there that I think would be interesting to unpack. Chad, I'm just kind of curious to know your impression of what Mac has shared around the sort of flak that he's gotten around, you know, what you're doing isn't going to work, or whatever. Have you gotten any of that over the years? Are you surprised to hear that? Just interested to hear your thoughts. CHAD: No, I think it happens when you are willing to put yourself out there with an opinion, with a belief. And it's going to resonate with the people that it resonates with. And the flip side of that is there are going to be people who believe that you're wrong. You know, when we were doing very early on with test-driven development, for example, it was not an established industry practice. You could find blog posts from people out there saying. "It's bad. We tried it at my startup and our product failed, and it was too slow. It held us back from being successful." But the people who believe in it...if we were the only company in Boston who was doing it and a company that believes in test-driven development was never going to work with a company that didn't do test-driven development, so we were the one company that they could work with because we believed in the same practices. And that's the hard thing in that is, usually, if you're on the right track to finding the right niche or to the right belief that's going to really resonate with a group of people, the people that you're turning off is probably going to be a louder, more vocal group. And so, being strong in the face of that is really important. And I'll also just call out that, like, this is one area where it's easy to say, "Well, this works because you've been successful." There are other founders probably who, like, they have a legitimately bad idea. And they ignore all the sort of haters, and they say, "Oh, those are just the haters." And yet they don't get the success because there wasn't the people out there who actually did believe what they believe or had a need for the product that they were creating, or something like that. And I think it's important to ignore the noise or to push past the noise, but you do need to let it in a little bit so that you understand whether you're on the right track at all, I've found. What about you, Mac? MAC: Yeah, it's a never-ending battle to know what to listen to, and what to ignore, and how to apply it or if to apply it, and things like that. I agree. I think there is an element of, like, it's like, what's that [inaudible 14:47] saying? Like, if no one thinks you're crazy or wrong, you're probably too late as well with your idea, right? Like, if you're like, "Here's my idea," and everyone's like, "That's a great idea," It's been done. You're very late to the party at that point. There's no, like, right or wrong answer because there's always context. You always know your idea and your business, hopefully, better than anybody else does. So, you can't just, like, take other people's advice. I actually went through a whole period (It's like sort of a sidebar.), but where I was, like, impostor syndrome as a, you know, venture-backed CEO. I was like, oh, I got to, like, be the founder and run the company the way other people run companies at this stage. And it, like, objectively, almost killed us as a company. I have lived both sides of that extreme of like, being like, "No, I'm not going to listen to anybody's advice," and the negatives and positives of that, and the "I'm just going to follow everyone's advice and do what they say," and the negatives and positives of that. And now somewhere, maybe not quite in the middle, maybe a little bit leaning towards the ignore the advice because I believe in what we're doing. CHAD: And you need to actually believe what you're saying. I think this is the wrong tactic to take if you don't actually believe it. SALLY: [laughs] CHAD: Because if it's not authentic to you, it's going to be really hard to build an authentic community and message and those kinds of things, yeah. MAC: People can tell. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. SALLY: One of the things that you had mentioned before was sort of the technology that you've built Commsor on. And it was an interesting choice to me because it's not one of the more, you know, flashy or hot, new sort of programming languages that's out there. So, I was just kind of wondering, what is it? And why did you make the decision to build out the actual tool the way that you did? MAC: So, I definitely have to, like, put a giant asterisk over everything I'm about to say. I am not a technical founder [laughs]. So, like, anything I say here is just potentially wrong [laughter]. [inaudible 17:20] The decision was made because I had, you know, a great team that we put together and trusted them to make the decision, and that's the decision we've made. So, I mean, the bulk of the app is built on just, like, Ruby and React. It's pretty straightforward. We have had people be like, "Well, you should be using this," you know, whatever "Next.js, plus this, plus this, you know, it's better." But, like, the team we have, they've worked together in the past. So, they actually came into an acquihire. So, we're like, basically, like, you know, they'd worked together for three years in a company. They have systems in place. And at this stage, it's, like, debating what tool you're going to use when you start, like, just 99.9% of the time does not matter. There's no idea...you don't even know if it's going to work, the product, right? It's, like, and your customers don't care. Your customers don't care. Unless you're building a dev tool and it's, like, hyper-specific, but even then, they probably don't really care that much. So yeah, we have a good team. I trust them to make the decision. And it's what they know and what they're familiar with. So, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, we just went with the thing that would let us get things done the fastest. SALLY: Chad, I'm interested to know...the trust factor that you mentioned, Mac, is really key to a lot of thoughtbot's success. I think that one of the things that Chad has done well as he's grown the company is hired great people and then trusted them to get the job done however [laughs] they thought that it might best be done. So, Chad, I'm curious to know: whether you're deciding on a tech stack or how you're going to go to market or anything like that, what has the impact of trust been at thoughtbot as you've grown and scaled the company? CHAD: I think trust is one of [laughs]...I think it's very important. It's one of our core values. And, for us, that comes from not just trust being a nice thing to have. It's the one value that I can also point to and say I intentionally created an environment of trust. I've been doing freelancing and consulting for a long time, even before thoughtbot. And I knew that at thoughtbot, we were going to continually form and reform teams of people that hadn't necessarily worked together closely before. And that if every time we did that, we were going to have to be building trust with each other, that it would detract from the success of the product that we were trying to create and from the relationship that we were needing to build trust on urgently which was with our new client. And so I tried really hard to create an environment where when people show up on day one, everyone inherently trusts that they belong there and trusts them. It's not easy, and it's not perfect. But I think we've made a lot of progress on that. And then, when you have that kind of environment, recognizing that it changes the way that you work with each other. And so, when it comes to, like, technology decisions and everything, I mean, that is essentially how we work is understanding that everyone has trust of each other and that when you are put in a position to make a decision, it is your decision to make. But part of making decisions and part of having a trusting environment is communicating with each other. So, even if you're responsible for making the decision, part of your responsibility, then, is for bringing everyone else along with you. And sometimes that means setting up an environment where, okay, the results speak for themselves. But other times, it means educating people about, "Here's what we're going to do, and here's why," even if it is as simple as "This is what we know. We've been doing it for three years, and let's just get right to it." I don't know if that directly answers your question. But it's a big part of how we've done things and tried to create the culture that we've created. And I happen to be biased, but Ruby is a great choice. SALLY: [laughs] CHAD: I think it's taken for granted because it has been around for so long. But I talk about strong beliefs. I am up to speed on lots of web development frameworks and the ways that you build applications across a variety of different platforms, and tech stacks, and that kind of thing. We didn't choose Ruby on Rails because we thought it was going to be popular back in 2005. We chose it because it fundamentally was the best way that we could see, out of all the platforms at the time, to build web applications. It allowed us to do things in one line that normally would have, at the time, taken 20. And that allowed us to be faster and work the ways that we wanted to work. And embedded in that culture is things like testing and test-driven development, which we also believe in. The simple fact of the matter is there hasn't been a paradigm shift in web frameworks that is actually fundamentally better in the way that Ruby on Rails was better in the early 2000s. So, you can choose something else, but it's not going to be significantly better than Rails in terms of productivity, in terms of what it can do for your early-stage product. It basically just then comes down to there's choices you can make that will slow you down, definitely, in terms of architecture and everything in other platforms. But yeah, you can't go wrong with Rails, and you can't really go wrong with Ruby. And you can't go wrong with choosing what you know and what you're comfortable with, especially in the early days. SALLY: Yeah, I love that. One of the themes that I'm sort of hearing from both of you in how you've approached building tools; building your business is putting users at the center. And, Mac, I know you were saying, you know, I have all these CROs coming at me, right? Like VPs of sales being like, "The way you're approaching things isn't going to work. It's dumb; it's stupid." But then you also have these salespeople DMing you like, "Hey, I agree with you. I just can't say it out loud because I might get in trouble." And, ultimately, that salesperson really is your user, right? Because they're the ones that are building their network, that are leveraging it to then go get the sales for the company. So, I thought it was interesting that sort of that user-centered approach was something that was coming out with both because I know for Ruby, in particular, it's very well-loved by developers that use it. It's, like, a very developer-friendly sort of language. And so, I'm just wondering, you know, how do you, Mac, continue to keep users at the center when you have voices coming at you, when you have [laughs], you know, people telling you you're doing it wrong? What are some things that you do tactically to make sure that you stay aligned? MAC: I mean, the simple answer is talk to them all the time. We actually...every single user who gets onboarded to our product right now gets an introduction to me directly. That's part of, like, seeing how the product works as well. But every single user ends up speaking to me. Who knows if that'll scale? But right now, it's like, I have spoken for at least 30 minutes with every single person we've onboarded to our product. We onboard every user by hand right now, which is totally counterintuitive for the price point our product's at. But it's been really helpful to build that relationship, build that trust, get the research and the understanding of what we need to do next really quickly, have tight feedback loops. We have, like, I Dm users all the time. Like, I [inaudible 24:28] I probably have 50 to 60 unique DMs on LinkedIn per day. And someone was telling me like, "That's a waste of time as CEO and founder." I'm like, it's literally the only thing that matters. I'm talking to users, hearing what the market is saying, like, hearing all that live, not hearing it from people. We're also working on, right now, enabling anyone on our team to do an onboarding so that when we do scale, my goal would be that every person on our team, from an engineer to a success person to the CEO, would be onboarding a customer at least once every few weeks just to maintain that closeness and that connectedness. We're also working on things... I'm a huge fan of...do you know Arc browser? SALLY: I'm not familiar, no. CHAD: I haven't used it, but I am familiar with it, yeah. MAC: I'm using it right now. CHAD: [laughs] MAC: Highly recommend. Not an ad, I promise; just a fan. But they do, like, little things that they do, for example, like, when they would change log, instead of being written or instead of being just a CEO, it'll be like, "Here are the four new things released." And the first thing is, "Oh, here's Mac, the developer who worked on this feature sharing it. And here's, you know, this person who worked on this feature." So, it's like, each individual person becomes the face of the thing they worked on, rather than just like, oh, it's the faceless company, or it's, like, it's always the same, like, spokesperson who's always talking about it. So, enabling it to not just be me who talks to users all the time but the whole company enables the whole company to be more user-centric. SALLY: That's so interesting. Again, there's, like, so many parallels between how I've seen thoughtbot approach things and how you're approaching things with Commsor. When you mentioned that your goal is to sort of make it so that several different people are the face, and it's not just like, oh, Commsor is Mac only [laughs], that's something that I think I've seen Chad do throughout the years. So, Chad, do you have any examples of sort of how you've tried to scale the company, putting different faces and putting our experts out there, trying to make it so that thoughtbot is not, like, the Chad show? Because I feel like that's one of the things that, you know, you're great [laughs]. But I think that the fact that we have so many contributors to communities and people speaking at events has been really, you know, just good for business and good for the company. So, what are some ways that you've done that? And what benefits have you seen of doing sort of what Mac is trying to do right now within Commsor? CHAD: I don't know that I've been super intentional about this. It just came naturally, as we're all people who would do this, right? Like, you can't stop us from doing it. And so, I mostly just try to create an environment where you're not stopping people from doing things that they would normally want to do anyway. And to then recognize when, you know, someone else goes and creates open source, or a blog post, or speaks at a conference, or whatever. That comes back to benefit us through the reputation that it builds and the community that it builds. And I think a lot of organizations and teams and everything do a really good job of getting in people's way from doing things [laughs] that they would want to do. And so, that's really all I've tried to do is not get in people's way. MAC: I've spoken to a lot of people who are, like, under the impression that their company owns their LinkedIn account, which I always think is super interesting, or companies who, like, go out of their way to be like, "No, you can't speak about, I don't know, that you like barbecuing," or, like, well, you can't, like, be a person. You have to, like, you are just a representative of the company. And it's so stupid. It's, like, 90% of the growth we have is either word of mouth or people referencing that they've, like, built a relation or a connection with someone on our team, not just me, but, like, Ben or Katrine on our team, like, people like them. And then they want to learn about Commsor because they get to know them. And I think there's this old model where, like, if you just draw, like, circles, right? Like, here's the company, and here's people. It used to be here's the company, and then all the people are inside of it. But more and more, like, the way we're trying to build it is, like, you have, like, the people are a ring around the bubble that is the company. It's like, the people actually are the kind of that first interface, which is always what it is anyways, whether companies act that way or not. At the end of the day, people are the interface. But so many companies try to control that and, like, you know, put everyone through this, like, brand voice funnel that just...it just doesn't work. Yeah. SALLY: Yeah. Well, and it's ironic because I've heard so many sales leaders harping on people buy from people. People buy from people. And then they don't allow their salespeople to actually go be a human being and a person in any sort of a public [laughs] forum like LinkedIn. I've had that same conversation with so many sales folks that I've worked with, you know, over the years, especially the last few years, where like, oh, I feel like I could really put some great stuff out on LinkedIn, build some relationships, but I just I feel sort of stifled from doing that for fear of reprimand, or losing my job, or whatever it is. So, I definitely appreciate that, at thoughtbot, I don't feel that. I have felt that in the past in some roles, but I don't feel that here. And I'm just so grateful that I feel empowered to go share my thought leadership and things like that on LinkedIn. And it's interesting because that has yielded opportunities that I wasn't even looking for. So, yeah, I'm curious, Chad, if you've also seen things that we weren't necessarily looking for happening that way. CHAD: I do. As you were talking, though, I was just thinking, this is harder than it was before. Like, you may be excited to talk on LinkedIn [laughs], but I would say the number of people at thoughtbot who are actually excited to do authentic stuff on social media these days is way, way down. And it's been trending down for years, and it's particularly bad these last couple. And, you know, we have the kind of culture where we don't force people to do it. Is that something that you've seen, Mac? It's, like, individuals' sort of engagement, willingness? I think a lot of social media is just a mess right now, that kind of thing. And how is that affecting what you see in your strategy? MAC: Yeah, I don't think...it doesn't have to necessarily be social media, like, once again, the browser company example of, like, the update videos including people in it, right? It's like it's...there's ways that the company can intentionally elevate their people first, rather than being like, "Oh, yeah, here's social media, like, have fun. Go build a brand. Please do free marketing for us." Because that's kind of, like, what you're subtly hoping happens if one of your team members builds an audience on Twitter or LinkedIn. You're like, cool, we'll get, like, the splashover effect. I would say, right now, about 25% of our team is doing it really well without us prompting. Like, they just want to do it, and they're leaning into it and enjoying it. 25% want to do it but maybe aren't sure how or where. And we've actually, like, built systems internally to help, like, build, like, you know, give them the space to do it and whatnot. And then, half are just like, yeah, I'm not doing that. I don't have any interest at all. CHAD: For me, it's more that you don't need to do that just because someone else is doing it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to find the thing that you're passionate about and the way that you can find your voice or a thing to contribute to, even if it's an external sort of open-source project or something like that. MAC: Yeah, I mean, we have things like it doesn't have to be tied to the company. Like, a great example...so, Katrine, who's our head of sales, and my sister [laughter]...I guess I should -- CHAD: Full disclosure. MAC: Like, put a little asterisk, you know, on there as well, yeah. Not why she has the job, but just happens to be that way. So, she actually started running this, like, Women in Revenue meetup with Gong, another company, with this other woman Ashley, like, almost two years ago, like, after she started Commsor. It wasn't tied to Commsor or, like, it wasn't tied to our business or anything like that. And then she came to me, like, a year ago and was like, "Oh, me and Ashley want to start our own podcast. What do you think?" And we ended up actually, like, funding the podcast. Like, we pay for the editing, the hosting, like, all of a sudden, they need to, like, do it. And yeah, so we get to [inaudible 32:30], like, yeah, this podcast is, like, presented by Commsor, even though it's like Katrine and Ashley's podcast. We're, like, the permanent sponsor of it, basically. But it's been interesting. And now it's like, and now she's involved in this group called Wednesday Women where it's like, she wants to elevate other women in revenue roles. That's not what Commsor's mission is. I'm not saying we don't believe in it but, like, that's not the reason Commsor exists, right? But we were like, yeah, we gave her the space to do it. There has been so much good that has come to Commsor from that, from her running her own meetups, hosting her podcast, building a brand around that, elevating other women. Like, the amount of people who come to us and want to learn more about Commsor or [inaudible 33:05] want to work with us, whatever, because of the stuff she has done on a thing she cares about outside of work, I mean, it's obviously very tied to her work still, but it's not. It's not Commsor marketing. It's not for Commsor. It's not backed by Commsor, like, in an official capacity. So, there are ways that, like, if people have those passions, like you said, it'll bring people who are like-minded, who will get to know them, who then inherently want to be like, "Oh, well, I love what Katrine is doing. What does Katrine do at Commsor? Oh, cool. What does Commsor do?" Like, you know, it's like, there's a funnel. Like, not everybody will follow that path. But a not insignificant portion of the people that are aware of our brand have come in through that path. CHAD: And this is a good example of something that I talk a lot about is, is that the most effective thing that could probably happen? Probably not. But I would rather someone do the thing that is 60% effective and 100% fulfilling to them than doing something that is soul draining that they don't want to do that's 99%. MAC: Well, I'll also counter that they will show up and be a better employee and team member because they're...it's like, so even if they're, like, doing less by the numbers, long term, they'll do more, like, especially in sales, right? Like, SDR culture has been this, like, you basically grind it out for 12 months, maybe 18 months as an SDR, and you hope that you make it to the AE role, and if you don't, not very many people...you don't become an SDR for ten years. It is not a career. It is a stepping stone of, like, I'm going to stick my face in the boiling water. I'm going to deal with it. I'm going to suck it up, and hopefully it pays off in the long term. And, like, a huge percent of those folks end up churning out into customer success roles or completely different industries or whatever because it's, like, no one wants to keep their face on the grindstone for that long. But by, like, building a sales and a marketing system that's actually enjoyable for the people that are doing it, one, they bring their authentic selves to work, which means they're more likely to do it. They're more likely to stick around. They're more likely to have fun with it. And when they're having more fun with it, that also reflects on the people in the market because people can tell. People can tell that Commsor is having fun. Like, it sounds kind of dumb, but I think especially in B2B, like, having fun is actually kind of a competitive advantage. And I don't mean fun in the sense of, like, oh, we post memes on our LinkedIn account. Like, that's not, like, corporate fun, but, like, actually, like, real people personalities showing through the work fun, like the dinosaur thing, right? Like, I think my entire LinkedIn personality now is, like, anti-bad sales tactics, and dinosaurs are cool, which is also sad and kind of counterintuitive because, like, bad sales tactics are also things that dinosaurs [inaudible 35:40] [laughter], sort of a, like, sort of a funny play on things. But, like, I think my LinkedIn bio is: DM me for a fun fact about dinosaurs. It's not what we do at Commsor. It's not trying to pitch you on anything. And I have had so many conversations where someone's just like, "I want a fun fact about dinosaurs." I'm like, "Sure. All right, cool. Like, here you go." And sometimes, it ends up going further. And, you know, maybe Commsor comes up naturally. Other times, they're like, "Cool. That's an awesome fact that made my day, thanks," and then that's it. That's the end of it. But when you can enable those personalities, and that authenticity, and that fun to show through the work, both sides benefit. And when you're talking about things that don't scale, whatever, that's one of the classic pushbacks I get. - It's like, "Well, how does this, like, go-to-network relationship selling, how does it scale?" They're like, "I need to close 100 deals this year. I got to scale." It's like, I did a graphic...I can't remember the exact numbers, but looked at, like, you know, the stats on cold calling, for example. And it was like, to get one deal, you need five meetings because, on average, industry-wide in SaaS, 20% of those meetings become deals. To get five meetings, you have to cold call 250 or more individual accounts because that's how many, on average, it takes with cold call rates. But on average, it takes seven to eight cold calls to actually get someone to answer. So, I have to call Sally eight times to get an answer. So, I have to make over 2,000 cold calls to end up with one meeting. It's just insane. Whereas if you look at like relationship selling, warm intros, and warm paths like that, they close at a 78% rate across the board. So, it's actually like, okay, I can go out and get a pool of 250, 500, 1,000 contacts and try to get four leads, or I can go build relationships with ten people and get four deals that way. It's like, you don't need it to scale in the same way if you're building with that. The problem is that sales and marketing over the last decade have been built on the predictable revenue model. If I make X cold calls, I'll get X meetings, and I'll book Y deals. So, everyone is like, okay, it's scalable. If I want to close twice as much revenue, I need twice as many SDRs making twice as many cold calls to close twice as much. That just doesn't work anymore. The whole model that startup growth has been built on for ten years it doesn't work. I mean, even if you look at, like, the IPOs of tech companies over the last decade, it's like less than 5% of them have been consistently profitable for the last three years. So, if we're all trying to build our companies and everyone's like, ooh, look at the way that XYZ, Uber, or WeWork, whatever, did over the last ten years, they actually haven't worked. We've been trained and tricked on this system for 10, 15 years of, like, growth is everything. But, like, I don't know, just look at WeWork over the last month, right? Like, that's the shining star of, like, does it matter? Like, you can grow to a billion dollars in revenue. But if you're losing a billion to make a billion, the company making 20 million and spending 5 million to make that is actually a better company. CHAD: Yeah. It's totally...some people that is what they want. But it does change your motivation when what you're trying to do is create a company that you enjoy working at that maybe isn't taking over the world but making a positive contribution to it. That changes your approach. MAC: Yeah, you're not trying to consume everything in sight. There's a lot of different ways to do it. And yeah, I think the last ten years, especially in startup and SaaS land, have tricked a lot of people into thinking there's only one way to do things, and it's throw money in a grinder and hope to God that you get more money at the bottom of it than you put in the top of it, even though 99% of the time that's never the case. CHAD: Well, Mac, thank you so much for joining and sharing with us. If folks want to find out more about Commsor or get in touch with you, what are all the different ways that they can do that? MAC: Well, they can DM me on LinkedIn for a fun fact about dinosaurs before they ask what their real question is. It's just Mac Reddin. I think I'm the only one on LinkedIn with that name, so it shouldn't be too hard to find me. I'm the guy with the dinosaur emoji next to my name, just to really lean into it. Yeah, and then Commsor, it's commsor.com. We're, like, just now starting to reveal what we've been building over the last six or nine months with our pivot into this go-to-network world. So, we're early on that front. But you can keep your eyes peeled, and there'll be more to see over the next few months. CHAD: And Sally, thanks so much for joining today and help facilitating the conversation. I really appreciate it. SALLY: Absolutely. It's been really fun. CHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along, where are the places they can do that? SALLY: I am all up in LinkedIn, so feel free to hit me up there. That's probably the best place. Also, if anybody out there ends up using Commsor, you can also find me in the Herd, which is the community that Mac has built, so feel free to find me there as well. CHAD: And you, listener, can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Mastodon at cpytel@thoughtbot.social. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time.Special Guest: Mac Reddin.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Now that you have funding, it’s time to design, build and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Lift Off brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we’ll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today’s new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow, today. Get in touch at: thoughtbot.com/liftoffSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

D'ontra Hughes is the Founder and CEO of Spare, which uses tech to solve cash management problems for unbanked small businesses and enterprises. D'ontra shares his entrepreneurship journey, driven by realizing the financial industry's impact on less privileged individuals. D'ontra highlights a significant issue in the banking sector where the poorest people are often charged the most in fees, perpetuating poverty. Spare addresses the high fees unbanked individuals face when accessing their money. D'ontra's entrepreneurial journey involved various challenges, including learning from customer feedback, understanding the importance of data-driven decisions, and navigating the competitive startup environment. The conversation also covers the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on Spare, leading to a strategic shift and a focus on regions with high cash circulation. D'ontra emphasizes the importance of strategic planning, data analysis, and a systematic approach to business growth. He also discusses the personal aspects of being a CEO, stressing the importance of maintaining personal relationships and self-care. Spare Follow Spare on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, or X. Follow D'ontra Hughes on LinkedIn or X. Follow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn. Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is D'ontra Hughes, Founder and CEO of Spare, which uses tech to solve cash management problems for the unbanked small businesses and enterprise. D'ontra, thank you for joining us. D'ONTRA: Well, thank you for having me. VICTORIA: Well, wonderful. So, we met at San Diego Startup Week a few weeks ago. So, I'm excited to have you on the podcast today. Why don't you tell me what was your experience of San Diego Startup Week? And how did you come to be one of the speakers on a panel there? D'ONTRA: Yeah, well, it's always a really nice thing to take part in, you know, kind of those innovative startup week events because you get to see a lot of what people are working on or what they're doing. So, we've been working very closely with the County of San Diego, especially with the city of Oceanside with our latest technology. And, you know, there came this opportunity where I could get on the stage and kind of tell people about our journey a little bit, I think because we're becoming a little bit more successful or something [laughs]; I don't know what to say. We're getting better at what we're doing, apparently, and so folks wanted to hear what I had to say. VICTORIA: I was able to catch your talk, and I thought what was really inspiring about it was that you came from the background of working in the financial industry and saw an opportunity to solve a problem that was common for other people and to be more fulfilled by the work you were doing. So, can you share a little bit about that? D'ONTRA: I came out of a background in finance, as you said. I used to work for JPMorgan. It feels like a long, long time ago. And that was my last corporate job until I became an entrepreneur. You know, one of the things that I learned at that time...and not that the bank was doing anything wrong, but in the nature of finance, it's a business, right? It's got customers. It's got clients. It's got shareholders. And the most important thing is it's designed to make money. There's always someone that loses, right? And sometimes you could say that that's the nature of business. But in this regard, it was a lot of people who lost that couldn't recover or wouldn't be able to recover from the financial waste that was left. You know, I went on my entrepreneurial journey wanting to learn how to build a business and, you know, try to solve problems for myself or for other people. And specifically for this endeavor with Spare, which we launched back in 2015, we looked at the subset of the population, roughly about 25% of the U.S. population, 90-something million households of folks that were basically spending about 7% of their own income every year just accessing their own money. And, like, that's wild, right? Because if I came to you and I said, "Hey, if you got 100 bucks in your pocket, in order to pull that money out of your pocket, you got to give me $7," you'd be furious. And so, the unfortunate thing is that this kind of tax on the poor was being facilitated by the ATM industry. At the time when we began the company, you had consumers out there going to an ATM roughly about seven times per month, withdrawing roughly about $60 per transaction. And the average fee at that time was $4.09. And today, the average fee is just about $4.80, something cents, depending on where you're at in the country. And so, it's unfortunate the difference in these fees for these folks. It might sound absurd to say this, but it makes a difference between eating and not eating for some of these folks. And anyone who's a struggling college student or lives on the low end of the economic spectrum they understand what I mean by that, where the extra $30 or $40 in their pocket per month actually matters. It's an extra tank of gas or two tanks of gas, depending on what kind of car you're driving. And so, it matters. We wanted to really take a really clean look, an assertive look at the relationship that, not just the ATM, but just cash management services or cash management on a local level the impact that it actually has. VICTORIA: Yeah. And to kind of play that back a little bit, let's say you have a bank or you're not able even to get an account in a traditional bank. Maybe your bank doesn't have an ATM in your neighborhood, and you need to always go to a different ATM to get money out of your bank. And you're just constantly paying those fees. You're more likely taking out smaller sums of money, and then you have to do that over and over again. And it becomes a really high percentage of your income that goes just towards getting money out of the ATM. D'ONTRA: Yeah, absolutely. So, when you consider even during the pandemic, right? Everyone's at home, but businesses were trying to figure out how to cut costs. And banks, just like any other business, when they have a retail bank branch that's in a neighborhood that's perhaps low income, they may not keep that bank branch around. And that's unfortunate because it creates an additional hurdle for folks to be able to become banked. You may hear this term of banking deserts, and that's partially because folks have to travel too far, which is an external cost of time, and money, and resources, just to be able to put their money inside of a bank. Now, the additional cost for this particular demographic is that fees tend to add up. And we all know that the bank says, "Hey, as long as you keep $1,200 in your bank account, we're not going to charge you any fees." Well, that's really great, except for the person who is living paycheck to paycheck, right? And so, this fee tax that's placed on them simply because they don't have enough money when you look at it, it's actually pretty rough [laughs]. I look at it, and sometimes I kind of laugh because it's absolutely absurd when you actually look at it on its face where the poorest people you're generating the most profits from. And unfortunately, those fees keep them in the cycle of being poor. And so, it's been really great. Over the past few years, you've seen really great applications or neobanks come up that have acted as, you know, somewhat shields against all of these arbitrary fees, like, hey, no overdraft fees, and no account fees, ever, no monthly fees, and things of that nature, right? But they still aren't solving the other issues, some of the major issues. So, it's really great that I have your debit card. But if you're a neobank, that means I either have to use your co-op ATM network, which is only going to allow me to withdraw cash so many times per month for free, or I have to use some other third-party ATM network. The unfortunate thing about that is they're still paying that fee [laughs]. At some point, they're still going to pay that fee, and when that money is better in their pockets, it's just a little rough. It's a little hard to digest. And so, we wanted to make sure we were doing something about it. VICTORIA: Right. It reminds me of a phrase I come back to sometimes is that being poor is actually very expensive [laughs]. D'ONTRA: It is. VICTORIA: There's a lot of fees, a lot of extra stuff you have to pay for that other people don't. I'm curious: how did you narrow in on this problem? Was it through doing some market research? Was it a personal experience that led you to wanting to work for these types of users? D'ONTRA: Even though JPMorgan was my last, like, corporate job, I went out into the world to be an entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur is expensive because you got to figure out how to pay bills. And so, one of the side gigs I had is I worked for a hotel in Santa Monica by the name of the Fairmont, and I was managing valet. For anyone who's been to the Fairmont in Santa Monica, it's not for the cheap folks, right? But what would happen is, you know, patrons would show up, and they'd say, "Hey, I'm going to valet my car. I'm going to come back and pick it up." I'm going to go ahead and settle this up. But, you know, where's the nearest ATM so I can give the valet person cash?" And the most often answer was, "Well, there's one inside the lobby of the hotel, and then there's one across this very busy street." Both of these ATMs had a fee of...the one across the street was about $3.75 if you weren't a bank customer, and, of course, it wasn't a national bank. And then the one in the lobby was about $4.75, I think is what the fee was. And so, here's the person who doesn't really carry cash that often being told that they have to pay a premium just to help this person out. And you could almost guess what the most likely outcome was is, unfortunately, that valet person just didn't get tipped. But the thing is, is there was actually a third source of cash, and it was actually in the valet's pocket or at the valet stand. So, there was money there in closer proximity. There just wasn't a mechanism of extracting it. And so, our first look was, well, hey, can we monetize a transaction between, say, the valet stand and this consumer where, basically, the valet stand is selling these folks their cash for much cheaper than the ATM? So, it's going to save everyone time, energy, money, and it ensures that the valet folks get cash in their pocket. I can remember when we initially launched this; I thought it was such a brilliant idea. We created an app in which we would populate a map with all the people around you that had cash on them. So, when you say it out loud, -- VICTORIA: [laughs] Yeah. I could see how that might be problematic. [laughter] D'ONTRA: So, we're super stoked. We're, like, "Hey, we got this app, and it's really great. And, you know, look at all the people here that have money on them." So, we go to submit this thing to the App Store, and the legal team's like, "Absolutely not [laughs]." So, we spent about six months working back and forth with their legal team to come up with a model. And it's somewhat similar to what you see today, where we're sending consumers to regular brick-and-mortar businesses that have spare cash on hand. That's it. Nothing glamorous about that. But the mechanism and the usefulness does some real overall good, not just for the consumers but for the businesses and for the local economy. VICTORIA: Right. So, I was going to ask you, like, what surprised you in the early phases: the discovery process? It sounds like you had at least [laughs] at least one big strategic turn. But I'm curious if there was anything else that came up in your early-stage journey where you realized you had to make a pivot and change up what you were doing based on the feedback you got from users. D'ONTRA: I'd love to be able to tell the story that we got it all right the first time around, but we didn't. I think we almost hit the checklist of things that you should not do. So, like [laughs], one example is you actually really truly shouldn't listen to your customer to some degree, right? So, you have the vision for this thing, but every customer has their idea of how your app should be better or something you should add. And we went through phases where we were adding features then that people just weren't using. You know, it might have worked for, you know, 10% of the user base, but we had spent two or three weeks with the dev team putting in this new feature. And it was somewhat of a departure from the core. It's adjacent, and so we could justify it. So, we did it, but we shouldn't have. So [laughs], then we had to, like, backtrack on that. We had lots of these moments. But I would say one of the most defining moments, and it was actually one of the first ones that came, was this moment in which one of early entrepreneurs' fear is that someone is going to steal your idea. So, we try to, you know, wrap folks up in NDAs, and secrecy, and things of that nature. You know, if you have a really solid idea, like, we all know that it has major potential to change your life. And so, I can remember, you know, we went out, and we pitched this business to a venture capital company. It was very early on. That was my first lesson: people don't steal things that are worthless. And the second being that just because they steal, it doesn't mean they can build it. I can remember, you know, it took us six and a half months to get Spare in the App Store the first time around. And during that time, we had met with this venture capital company looking for investors, angel investors. And it happened to be that this company gave us an offer to buy the company, and we said "No." But then were like, "Hey, why don't you come in and consult us, and let's see if we can work together to do a deal?" And me being super naive at that time, went in, and I said, "Hey, yeah. Like, this is how we would change the app, and this is what we would do." And after two or three hours chatting with them, I had designed my competitor. And I didn't know that until a week later where they made their announcement, and, you know, I had Google Alerts on. And so, this app comes out and, you know, they're posting to see what people think about it. And they had gotten their app in the App Store, same business model, mind you. And I was just blown away [laughs]. Like, I think, at that time, I think I lost all composure. I was, like, sick to my stomach. I was furious. When you asked about, like, the major pivot, it would have been in, like, my mindset because I went in thinking that we have this really great idea and how could anyone want to take something from an entrepreneur because starting is tough enough, especially the people that fund this stuff, right? And [laughs] I learned that, no, opportunities are opportunities, and people take them when they can. And the bigger you become or depending on where your industry is, people are just looking for a shot. They're looking for an opportunity. No one really cares whether or not they're copying someone else's tech, right? If you were destined to do it, you would do it, and you would do it well, and you'd be one of the top ones to do it, right? That was a major change in how I saw this journey, which allowed me to kind of reframe what we were doing and how I was approaching the market, how we collected data, how we dealt with our consumers, and how we ran our business in general. And then, we had to go in and pivot back to the conversation around the customer. So, we go back, and we're going back to build this thing. And so, at that time, I'm feeling, okay, I have to, like, do any and everything I can once we're in the App Store to get users and retain them. And that's when I learned the lesson of, like, don't listen to all of your users. Like, know what your thing is, and do that thing really, really well. And try not to build features that aren't central to your core because, honestly, that can just get you in a lot of trouble. And you can waste a lot of time for no reason. But I think the most important thing out of that is listen to the data, the information, and what I mean by that is where people go on a webpage, or where they go in your app, where they spend the most time. Listen to those things, and pay attention to the data, and somewhat become obsessed about utilizing the data to make your decisions. I think that'll save everyone a bit of heartache and, you know, pain as they go down that journey. VICTORIA: Yeah, I really love that. There's a couple of, like, interesting points. I feel like when you said it can be daunting, like, oh, there's a million apps in there that already do this or, like, somebody else has already started this. Like, sometimes that means, well, it's a good idea because clearly somebody was willing to try and put it together, and they found a market. But you can always do it better, and you can always have a unique angle and try if you think there's a strong enough idea. And I'm curious to, like, get more into, like, the data question and understand what do you use to understand how people are behaving in your app? And kind of metrics you look at to see how you're tracking and whether those are, like, key success measures or other ways that you think about that data. D'ONTRA: For our application, you know, our KPIs were pretty simple very early on. It was like, do we have, like, the keywords that people respond to to find the application? And is it cash? Is cash the keyword? Is ATM the keyword? How do people find us, ultimately, at the end of the day? Because if you can solve that, solving what keywords are most attractive to your company, then what you're going to be able to do is organic traffic is going to be a lot easier to come by. So, you don't have to spend a whole lot of money trying to get advertisements. There's going to be natural search traffic that drive people toward your platform. In addition to that, it was really paying attention to where the customer complaints were coming from because that told us a lot about the application. Even still, today, we have one very consistent customer complaint that, like, the unfortunate thing is, like, it's really difficult for us to solve this thing because it's actually more in the hands of the business than it is us. And that major customer complaint is when I went into this active location, the person at the cash register didn't necessarily know what I was talking about, and there's a myriad of different reasons for that. But the primary one is that these locations typically have high turnover for the person that's working at the counter. And so Spare has to be an integral part of their onboarding this person so that when someone walks off the street, they can get the service that they need. To some degree, listening or paying attention to the feedback that you're getting about the effectiveness of the service or being able to deliver the technology is actually a very useful data point. In addition to that, looking at where your app is available in cross-section with where the people are that are going to use your app. And this is one of the lessons, I think, we learned the hard way, where, you know, we came out the gate and said, "Hey, anybody and everybody can use this app. It doesn't matter if you're in New York, if you're in Texas, Midwest. It doesn't make a difference, right? Any and everyone can use it." And the unfortunate thing is, when you do that, like, you're going to new users, which is really fun. It starts off that way. So, you go out, and you get merchants and things of that nature. And the mentality that we used was, well, we'll build it. The users will come, and the users will tell us where the businesses are or where we need to place businesses. So, we had a new person or a group of individuals show up in downtown Los Angeles. It was like, okay, cool, there's a concentration of people in Downtown LA. Let's go make sure we put businesses there. Well, that's faulty thinking in and of itself. Even though you're getting the data points and the useful bits of data, you're actually doing it in pretty much, like, the wrong order [laughs]. We didn't really realize that, and Spare was my first tech company. And so, you know, when you think about things like that, like, you think, oh, users, they're important. But how you get them, and how you service them, and when you service them must be a strategic plan. You have to have that process thought out so that the user audience follows your plan, not you responding to them or following their informal plan. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And I love that, you know, focusing on the users and really focusing, like, on all of their unique needs like location [laughs] and other things like that. And I talk about that, you know, in my role as managing director at thoughtbot, I work on our DevOps and platform engineering team. I often talk about it in terms of, you know, very early in the process; you know enough about your user to tell you a lot about what their needs are going to be like on the infrastructure side, like their regional location, the sensitivity of the data, you know, that can tell you a lot about what you need to build [laughs]. So, I'm curious, you know, you're working on a financial app here. Have you also had to consider that from a regional perspective and from an infrastructure perspective how that affects your users? D'ONTRA: Going into COVID and how we got there, was that we thought we were actually doing really well, right? So, we officially launched our platform to the marketplace in Q4 of 2018. And we did well for the initial launch without any marketing. And then a year later, we had done 3x the volume and had a strategic partner in place that would have grown our network by 30 times by the end of the next year, you know, we were moving. And then COVID came along, right? In which, you know, huge event that no one planned for. It kind of put the company on halt while businesses were shut down, and we lost about 98% of our network at that time. So, we had to go back to the drawing board and kind of, like, figure out, well, one, if this company is really truly something that we know that there's a thing, we're going to continue to build it, but let's do it better this time around, like, what did we miss the first time? And the first place that we went when we were trying to make this decision is we went to look up, like, cash effectively, like cash in circulation. And to our surprise, actually, there was more cash put into [laughs] circulation during COVID than there was at any other time in the past, like, decade, and so that was shocking. And so, we said, okay, cool. We know that cash is in circulation, perfect. Where is cash in circulation? And in addition to that, where should we start with the base of our technology? And how do we want to reconfigure this? And to be honest, we need help. So, you know, we applied to Techstars, and we were super fortunate that we got into the Techstars Anywhere program. I think it was a lifesaver and a reboot for us and the company primarily because, you know, during the pandemic, we had lost, you know, over 70% of the folks that worked for the company at that time. So, going through that program helped us rethink a lot about strategy infrastructurel...how exactly we need to rebuild and reconfigure the company for success this next time around. I think very early on, you know, we were just trying to do the business. We were just doing it rather than actually strategically building it. You know, that's the major difference between where we were versus where we are now is that everything that we do now is more methodical. When we look at, okay, where do we build merchant networks? Well, we're building them in a very strategic location. That particular location has this value to not only us as a company, the merchants in that area, but also the user base. When we were able to take this more strategic position around, you know, how exactly we're building this business, we were actually able to see much larger opportunities that have always been there, but we just didn't see them. And so [laughs], I'm super grateful for, like, us kind of doing that recalibration because we were able to build a business that is ten times bigger than we initially thought that we were building. VICTORIA: That's super interesting. So, yeah, like, pre-COVID, you're like, we'll get users, and then we'll figure out where to build. And then you had to, like, go through this full recalibration and focus on strategic regions, and that really opened up more opportunities and more growth than you had expected. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration, or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: What does success look like for you six months from now or five years from now? D'ONTRA: So, six months from now. We're hitting this hot streak with new clients and things of that nature. And we're going out, and we're pitching contracts that are bigger than I ever thought we would be able to pitch, honestly. And sometimes when I see the zeros on the proposals that we're sending out, there's part [laughs] of me that's like, oh, they're never going to say yes to this thing, but, one, they are, which is still shocking, even though we've gotten a few of these in. And six months from now, I just want us to be doing it right. I know that sounds so arbitrary, and it sounds, like, so whimsical. But there are so many things that we're adjusting to in the marketplace and with our tech. Some of this is kind of new frontier for us. But what I would like to have happen is for the results in the next six months to indicate that we're doing it the right way and meaning that we have clients sticking around, we're still getting contracts signed, the network is growing, consumers are actually getting their needs met by our technology, and the company is growing at a rapid pace. That's what I'd like to see. And granted, you know, we've, in the past, you know, few weeks here, we've doubled the size of the team, which is something that feels really great. But I want us to not lose sight of making sure that the team itself always has a common goal in mind, even as we're growing. And whether that's six months from now, 2, 5, 10 years from now, I want that to kind of be the core of the expectations of what I want this company to be able to do and to deliver. VICTORIA: That's exactly the right attitude to have [laughs], right? It's like I want it to work. I want us [laughs] to, yeah, be successful. I think it all makes sense. You know, it's easy to come on a podcast, like, you know, you're eight years into the startup now, and you're starting to see some success. And it's like, here's how I did it. Everything sounds great. So, I'm glad you've also shared some mistakes or some things that you maybe would have reconsidered or done [laughs] differently before. I'm curious: if you could travel back in time to when you first started, what advice would you give yourself, now that you've had this experience, to set your mind right from the very beginning? D'ONTRA: Oh God, there's so much. There's so [laughs] much. One of the major things that I would do differently is I would read more. And what I mean by that is there are lots of lots of people that have been here in this position and done that thing already. I think in the past year, I would say probably one of the most influential books that I've read is Zero to IPO by Frederic Kerrest. And I happened to listen to it in Audible. But when you talk about, like, just things being pivotal, or like [laughs], going, "Oh, that makes sense," yeah, you get that because being an entrepreneur isn't new. And there are folks that have already kind of cracked the code in some regards. So, if you don't have the existing network around you already, go get the materials. Go read the books or listen to the audios of people who have been there, done that. It's going to save you so much time. So, that would be the number one thing that I would change is I would really truly read more and ingest other people's experiences more, and reach out and get mentors and advisors as you're going down this journey. The second thing that I would do is–it's important to move fast when you're building a company. It's important to respond to the market and all that stuff. That's all super important. That's how you live or die, right? You treat it like there's a fire behind you, and you have to lead it. You have this really hot thing. You've got to be in front of it always, or you'll lose it. And sometimes what we miss is we miss the opportunity to do it faster or better by just slowing down just a little bit. And what I mean by that is, like, I mentioned earlier about looking at the data and things of that nature. There may be things in the data that are making suggestions that you should go a different direction. But because of how you've built this thing, you and your co-founders, and how you guys have built these things in your head, that piece of data may not seem like it's very relevant. Sometimes, it's good to take a breath and take an assessment of where you're at. So, when you're with your team, whether you're setting this up monthly, quarterly, whatever it is, make sure that you're taking some time to make sure that you guys are aligned around where your company is, the industry is, and the signs that you're getting inside the space that you're operating in. It's going to save you a lot of time. And I think the last thing that is probably the most important is for those out there who are listening to this that are CEOs, one of my board members/life mentors/ CEO mentors, a friend, and almost like a father figure to me at this point, one of the things that he said to me and that I've never gotten out of my mind is that the CEO position is the loneliest position inside of an organization. And the reason why is even though you may start a business with your friends or people who aren't your friends, whatever it might be, whatever those relationships might be, those folks will never quite understand what it's like to sit in your seat because everything must end with you. It has to. Every successful organization is going to rise or fall by the person that sits at the top. And because that burden is so heavy, oftentimes, we don't want to go and talk to people when things are going bad. We don't want to admit when, like, hey [laughs], this thing that we've sunk all these resources into isn't really working. And just the sheer pressure of being that person sucks sometimes. With that being said, take care of yourself and your key relationships. And I'm not talking about key as in, like, strategic. I'm talking about the people that love you. Make sure even though you're going down this journey, you're making time for your friends, your family, your significant others, your kids, whatever it might be. Because business stuff aside, and we're all chasing the–Man, this is going to be really successful one day, and I'll be able to change everyone's life. Sure, we're all chasing that. But there is a now moment. There is a person right now that might want your love or your attention, and do not rob them of that. Make sure that you're still making time for those things that are important. Because you could very easily start building a business and five years later, look up and go, oh, this thing didn't work. And then turn around, and there's a wasteland of relationships that you just didn't pay attention to. That's not worth it. So, make sure that you're not only showing, you know, the folks that support you some love but show yourself love by still nurturing those relationships. VICTORIA: That reminds me I heard something about like, your rest ethic should be as good as your work ethic. And your rest ethic includes that time that you spend with family, or whether it's your religion, or your hobbies, or anything like that that makes you feel whole and like yourself, which I know can be a difficult thing to do when you're balancing starting a new business and thinking about the growth and the future all the time. So, I really appreciate that. You know, you mentioned mentorship and these networking and relationships. Bringing it all the way back to Start Up San Diego Week, I'm curious if you have thoughts on how founders could get the most out of those types of events. And what draws you back to Startup San Diego or startup weeks in general? D'ONTRA: Just as a caveat to all this, even though I'm on the podcast and stuff like that, and I'm sure if you Googled my name, you'll see that I've been on TV and stuff, I generally don't like networking [laughs]. I'm a major introvert. So, like, when you put me in an event like that, it's very hard for me to talk to people. Like, when we met, it seems that would be contrary to what I'm saying because we were strangers, and I came over, and we started chatting and stuff like that. And by and large, like, that's not always, like, an easy thing for me to do. The reason why I'm saying that is that if you're that kind of person, do what you have to do to be more extroverted because sometimes that extroverted or that more open or welcoming side of you will allow for spontaneous interactions to occur. And so, when we think about events like, you know, Innovation Week or something like that, there's a lot of opportunity for you to either meet people that are on your journey or a similar journey like you who've been there done that, or even just to offer a different perspective. And if you're in a place where you're open and constantly seeking, amazing things can happen, right? You could end up with your next co-founder. You could end up, you know, with your next investor. Or you could end up talking on a podcast with a stranger that you met just a few weeks ago, right? So, anything can happen. Keeping yourself open to the opportunity and the ability to extract as much value as you can out of those events. It's really interesting to kind of have your pulse on what's going on, even if it's outside your industry. We're a FinTech, but I go, and I pay attention to things that are going on in aerospace or in health because it's always good to, one, not completely have yourself submerged in just your industry, even though that might sound really great. People like folks that can talk about a myriad of different topics [laughs]. So, it might be useful if you can go and have a chat with a stranger about, you know, what's the latest in aerospace, right? It gets you out of the brain drain of what it is that you do on a daily basis. But also, you get to learn some new things and cultivate some new relationships. VICTORIA: I love that. Yeah, I listened to...I think it's Happiness Lab episode where they talk about random conversations with people those, like, sparks of innovation or things like ideas you never would have thought of if you hadn't run into this random person [laughs] and talked to them for five minutes about, you know, what they do in health tech, or what they do for their consumer product that they're building. So yeah, I think that's great. And I've been excited to be here in Southern California for the last three years and starting to grow that network and meet people like yourself who are doing really interesting things. I'm curious if you have any questions for myself or about thoughtbot, or the podcast, or anything. D'ONTRA: Yeah. So, you say that you've been here for three years. Tell me a little bit about your journey, how'd you get here, and why you chose the podcast life, right? As one of your many things. VICTORIA: That is one of my many things, right? So, I grew up in Washington, D.C., And my career was in tech and civic tech. I was working for big three-letter agencies and some pseudo-federal banks like FDIC, and Fannie Mae, and PBGC, all the acronyms all the time. And we got an opportunity in early 2020 to move here for my husband's job. And we moved out here, and I decided to take a switch out of the federal space and get into more commercial consulting. And I was lucky enough to find thoughtbot; they had a position that just looked great for me. And when I joined, you know, we have an internal collaboration thing called Hub that I think our CEO wrote and writes with the other people. All the developers on our team all contribute to it. But he posted a message about this Giant Robots podcast and if anybody wanted to be a new co-host. And I was like, "Sure, I've done a little podcasting here and there, and I have a microphone, so I'm ready to go." And little did I realize just how popular the [chuckles] podcast was. And it ended up being a really great avenue for me to meet people and, learn more about their stories, and build relationships in a way that has been really impactful and meaningful. And like I said, you know, you never know how someone you meet might help you [laughs]. So, sometimes I'll interview people, and I'll get an idea about something that is, like, exactly relevant to the work that I am doing that week, just total kismet however it came about. So, that's how I got into podcasting and how I'm in thoughtbot and here in Southern California. And so, I'm super lucky that I live in a place where there's lots of events going on all the time and lots of great people to meet. Between LA and San Diego, you could go to a different event every single day, probably [laughs], and meet people who are working on cool stuff. So, my background was really in operations and maintenance and taking federal agencies into more modern practices with digital services, and agile development, and DevOps. And now I'm taking kind of a similar lens but to commercial partners who are much faster and can make change quicker. And, in some cases, are doing things in even cooler ways than I could have thought and trying to think about how to move them forward with their infrastructure and how they deploy software. D'ONTRA: That's fascinating. And, you know, it's difficult to be in Southern California, right? New events every day. VICTORIA: And then yeah, I'll go walk my dog in the morning-- D'ONTRA: [laughs] VICTORIA: And people are out there surfing. And I'm like, I could surf all day. I don't have to work [laughs]. D'ONTRA: Right? VICTORIA: But I do. I got to work. D'ONTRA: It feels like the world of limitless possibility, right? [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. You almost feel, like, a pressure. Like, everyone else is starting their own company. Why am I not starting my company? Everyone's doing cool stuff all the time. So, you get motivated that way by being around a great group of people who are...everyone is very happy and sunny and [laughs] for the most part, the people are so nice. D'ONTRA: Definitely a departure from the East Coast, right? And, like, I'm sure you came here with, like, that hustle mindset, where you're like, got to get it done, which is probably why you do, like, a million things. But then also, you have all of these people [laughs] that, like, I don't know, like, cares to the wind when they need to, right? Although you've got lots of successful people. But, sure, like, more or less down here, it's like, hey, you know, like, let's live life first and [laughs] make the dollars second. VICTORIA: It's very casual. I got rid of all of my blazers. There's no more of that anymore [laughs]. People when they found out that I was moving to California, they were like, "That makes sense for you [laughs]," like, just the general, like, vibe. D'ONTRA: [laughs] VICTORIA: And I'm a rock climber. So, they're like, of course, you're going to go somewhere where the outdoors is prioritized, yeah. Versus when you live in D.C., it's like the news is happening to you. D'ONTRA: Yes [laughs]. VICTORIA: And it's very, very close. So yeah, it's interesting. I love it, though. And it's cool to take experience from that and then apply it to this world and how people might think about stuff. So, I was worried that, like, my experience might not translate, but it has. It's been very helpful [laughs] in some cases, right? Is there anything else that you would like to promote today? D'ONTRA: Yeah, so, you know, maybe for a future conversation, but in line with, you know, your background and what you're talking about, I would love to have a discussion around CRA, the Community Reinvestment Act, for those who don't understand the lingo, right? Because Spare's latest, like, golden nugget that we've really been just, like, kind of moving on and we're talking to federal regulators about is actually our impact on banks and the Community Reinvestment Act. For those who follow the news and know, you know, the time and space that we're in right now, there are some changes that are taking place inside of CRA. And it's very fascinating because when you say about your background of helping agencies kind of modernize things with digital, that's effectively what we're doing with our tech, and we're getting a lot of support from the government. And so, you know, I think that we're really doing some very interesting things that are starting to get some really great attention. We recently partnered with Visa on one of our initiatives, and we're talking to a few other really large organizations and government organizations so that this technology can really be used at a scale, honestly, far beyond what I ever imagined. But when we talk about, like, actually helping people, we're doing it [laughs]. We're doing it in this very unique way, which I'm super stoked about. But maybe we'll have a chat about that in the future. But I think, you know, for those of you that are listening to this and you're curious, you know, what it is that we're working on, feel free to reach out. It's gotspare.com. Feel free to email me: ceo@gotspare.com. I'm generally in that email box every day. Or even just checking out our service, you know, searching Spare on the App Store or Google Play, and just going in and giving it a test drive. And, you know, we're happy to hear your thoughts. And for those of you who are out there that may be looking for a new experience, we are definitely growing this team, and we want to expand as quickly as we can. We have some really aggressive initiatives for the organization over the next 12-18 months. And so, we're not going to do it on our own. I'm super stoked to where we're, like, we're at a place where we're like, we're actively building [laughs]. We're actively moving. And so, if there was a [inaudible 38:44] for us, whether it's supporting us as someone who uses the application or supporting us as a merchant who's in our community. There's lots of value that we're adding that we're turning back around to reach all small businesses. We're really working on combating inflation with our tech. And we've been able to do that, which is one of those really, like, refreshing byproducts of a tech company, or at least of our services. Like, we're actually adding real, true value to folks, and I'm super stoked about that. VICTORIA: That's wonderful, and it's really close to my heart as someone who wants to see tech with purpose and who loves tech solving problems for people, especially groups of people that usually aren't the focus of founders who are trying to turn a quick buck, right [laughs]? The people who have real problems there's a real market there. It is a business, and it makes sense to start solving those problems. So, I'm really happy that you're working on it. Thank you so much for coming in today and being a guest on the show. We will include all those links and wonderful ways to reach out and get connected with you in the show notes. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guest: D'ontra Hughes.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at: url tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode.Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

If you missed the first and second episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can listen to Josh's first episode and his second to catch up. In the third interview with Josh, Lindsey Christensen, head of Marketing at thoughtbot, and Jordyn Bonds, head of the Incubator Program at thoughtbot, discuss the progress of Knect in the thoughtbot Incubator Program. Most of the conversation involves identifying and focusing on the right target audience. Initially, they considered startup enthusiasts, but after exploring other segments like journalists, they returned to startup enthusiasts with a more refined focus. Josh also talks about developing a prototype and its usefulness in getting feedback and refining the product concept. The technical feasibility of integrating various communication platforms into their solution is a significant focus. They examined different platforms like email, LinkedIn, WhatsApp, Telegram, and SMS to determine which integrations were essential for the minimum viable product. Looking forward, Josh outlines the next steps for the program, which include finalizing high-quality prototypes and making strategic decisions about the scale and funding of the project. Transcript: LINDSEY: Hi, everyone. JORDYN: Hi. LINDSEY: Thanks for tuning in and joining. We're going to be checking in on one of our incubator program participants today. If you haven't joined us before, thoughtbot runs a startup incubator, about an eight-week program for the early, early, early-stage company, idea, founder project to validate that business, find the market, and start thinking about how you build that thing. So my name is Lindsey Christensen. I head up Marketing here at thoughtbot. And today, I am joined by Jordyn Bonds, who heads up the incubator program at thoughtbot. And our guest of honor checking in once again, Josh Herzig-Marks, Founder of Knect, the company going through the program. Thanks for joining. JOSH: Super excited. I'm always excited. LINDSEY: How's it going? How is your founder sentiment this week? JOSH: This -- LINDSEY: Are you on a high? Are you on a low? JOSH: I don't think I'm on a typically high-high. I'm a pretty even-keeled, chill founder. I think it's appropriately enthusiastic but not excessively so, and definitely not at a low trough. LINDSEY: All right, even-keeled. We love to [crosstalk 01:19]. JOSH: Appropriately enthusiastic because we're doing really cool stuff. And this is a lot of fun. LINDSEY: Well, that's great. So, I mean, [inaudible 01:25] that you're working on and especially the last time I checked in with you in the really early stages, trying to find that target niche audience or invalidate, like, the problem with them. How is that going? How's that search for the people with the problem going? JOSH: Yeah. So just to, like, rewind the clock for the folks who maybe haven't seen every one of these, you know, there's a few things that I was trying to figure out to validate whether this problem that I saw was an opportunity for business. And, Jordyn, help me out if I forget some of these. So, number one, is this a Josh problem, or is this problem more broad? Question number two is, could we find an audience of people who are reachable, who share the problem, and who'd be willing to actually pay for this thing? And those little asterisks after pay, right? People pay for things with money but also with time or with reputation. Generally, we're thinking about money here, ultimately. But do they pay for this thing even in time? Would they be able to do that? And the reason we're looking for that kind of a more narrow audience is because you got to build for somebody in the very beginning. This isn't, like, we're limiting ourselves to a narrow audience forever, but we wanted a set of people who we could design this thing for, have prototypes, share it, and hopefully get some consistent feedback so we can build a thing which they would find useful and use that from there. That was two things. And the third thing: is this actually technically feasible? You know, the first time I was a founder, incidental to building our business, we built the world's fastest online transaction processing database that was processing, like, billions and billions of retail records in, like, the time it takes you to, like, click and drag and change the query that we're doing, which is really cool to say out loud, and it demoed really, really well. But that isn't actually a business. And what I wanted is part of validating if this idea, if this problem was an opportunity or something that wasn't a science experiment. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about what we've been doing over the past week, maybe a little later on in this. Because I think it's been a big week for the science experiment or not validation stage of this thing. So, two things we've also done over the past week and a half, two weeks since the last time we chatted, we have a prototype, which looks pretty good, which we can now use to show to people who we think are our core starting audience, our core starting market, and we actually have a core starting market. Both of these things are pretty exciting. I mean, I'm always excited. But we're doing it, like, we're doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing, and I like that. LINDSEY: That's really exciting. So, core starting market is happening. Do you want to talk about maybe how you got there? JOSH: One of the reasons why I was excited about doing this program is Jordyn, and I share the understanding of its importance. But when you're, like, actually the founder, it's really hard to see this, right? Jordyn is like the...I don't know quite how to describe it, but Jordyn is the person who, like, made sure we stayed focused on this part of the effort. And, like, it's a really key part of the thoughtbot incubator. And it's one of the reasons why I'm really appreciative of having gone through the program. JORDYN: So, Josh walked into the program with a problem that he had, which is frequently how products get made and companies get founded. Like, that's fine. It's a great starting place. And as he listed, his question was, is this a Josh problem, or is this a problem for more than just Josh? Because Josh isn't a market segment. Josh is an individual human [laughs]. And a lot of us have product ideas that we would love to have exist so that we can use them, but that doesn't make them good market opportunities. I may or may not be speaking from experience in that regard, ahem. Anyway, so part of the programming here was to figure this out. And it's great to start with, like, okay, well, if Josh is our primary user, who is Josh? Is there a market of Joshs, right? So, we actually started off talking to those folks. And, you know, we're human beings, and we tend to hang out with people like ourselves. And so, Josh knew a lot of people like Josh. One of those people that he knew was me. I am like Josh in regard to this pain point. I also had it. And then I was connected to a bunch of people who had this pain point. So, we broadly spoke to a lot of those folks at first. I don't know that we really had a persona name for this. I don't know, how would you frame this? JOSH: As you know, I only have poor pejorative names for people like us. JORDYN: [laughs] Pejorative? JOSH: There's, you know, a class of people who are at tech companies and startups, and sometimes they start their own companies, and sometimes they work at companies. And sometimes they do coaching. And sometimes they do a little bit of an investment. And sometimes they're on advisory boards. And, you know, when you kind of smoothly move from one thing to the next, sort of often doing several of these things all at the same time. And there's not a really good name for them, but they're kind of people, like I might go so far to say the three of us, and maybe a lot of people who work at thoughtbot and a lot of people we've all worked with in the past and, hopefully, a lot of the people who are listening to this conversation because they, too, could slip into the founding a company stage of this business. JORDYN: So, we've kind of loosely called those people, most recently, startup enthusiasts is our nickname, and there are a lot of folks under that umbrella. But as we talked to those people at this kind of high level, it was very broad. That maybe sounds fairly specific to some of you out there listening, but it's not specific, nearly specific enough to address with a product. So, we were talking. We were listening, getting people to talk to us, "Hey, tell us about how you keep in touch with folks. How does that go? What do you do? Have you ever built your own spreadsheet to keep track of people you know? Tell us about that." Broad questions. And we were learning things and hearing about trends. It wasn't coming into focus. We weren't hearing enough repeatable things. And we certainly weren't hearing about red, hot pain points. It was like a, "Yeah, this is kind of a problem sometimes, but not all the time. My system works more or less [inaudible 07:11]. Then we kind of found this range of personas. Some folks were just like, "I'm awesome at this. It's not a problem. I don't know what to tell you." Okay, well, clearly, that person doesn't need a product because they're feeling good. Great. At the other end of the spectrum, you have people who are just like, "I don't even know what you're talking about [laughs]. Like, this isn't [laughs]..." There were people who were like, "I know what you're talking about, but I'm good at it." There were people who were like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't care to ever do this." And then, there was this broad set of people in the middle who were like, "Yeah, I have a problem with this." But we were hearing a lot of different things. In the course of that, Rami, one of the folks on the team, ended up talking to a journalist. And that conversation was very interesting because it did seem like way more of a red, hot pain point with, like, something on the line. And we were like, oh, maybe we've been barking up the entire wrong tree and, like, startup enthusiasts aren't our people; journalists are our people. So, then we did a whole sprint with journalists and realized that journalists is a very broad umbrella [laughs]. There's a lot of different kinds of journalists in a lot of different kinds of contexts. And they have widely varying pain points, habits, needs, wants. We were like, okay, we're hearing some really interesting things in here, but they don't seem like early adopters because they are not the kind of people that just try an app who are just like, "Sure, new app, cool. I'll try that." Startup enthusiasts are people who just, like, try stuff. They're, like, on Product Hunt. They're friends with a bunch of founders, and those founders are, like, "Try this." And then they're like, "Sure, okay. Sure, I'll try it. I'll login." Login to anything once, right? Is kind of the attitude of this group of people, journalists not so much. And so, it felt like it was going to be a really hard thing to address those folks. But we learned a ton. And we really ended up mapping the emotional train in a lot of detail. And as a group, like, we came to a lot of alignment. There was a lot of, like, really good understanding, deeper understanding having gone on that journey. But where we ended up back was like, okay, startup enthusiasts really actually seem like [laughs] a place to start. And it feels like there's enough of them that they could create some kind of early adopter market. But now, with the information that we had, the new information we had, we were like, let us sub-segment this group of people. It's not everybody in that umbrella. Doing that whole journey enabled us to kind of come back to the question with renewed focus, but, like, conviction about how valuable it was going to be to do that, right? And sometimes that's what it takes. You kind of have to do the wrong thing for a second to appreciate doing the right thing, and that's totally fine. The fact that we were able to do that in, what, five weeks is, like, fine. JOSH: And I think the way that we found the sub-segment that made sense was actually pretty simple, right? Once we understood what are the dimensions that are actually important, we did a quick brainstorming session. This wasn't actually a very long process at the end of it, a quick brainstorming session. What are the different kinds of people who fall into this segment? And we just scored them on all the easy things you'd expect to score people on, namely: are they easy to find and easy for us to reach? Do they advertise this quality of theirs someplace publicly, like, perhaps on LinkedIn? And are they easy to find? Like, do we have enough of them inside of our network so we could, like, search for these kinds of folks? And as it turns out, we've already spoken to a lot of these kinds of folks as well. And primarily, we're talking to repeat founders and/or chiefs of staff at startups. JORDYN: If you are one of those people, please reach out to us. We'd like to talk to you. JOSH: We would love it. LINDSEY: Call to action. So, Josh, you mentioned one of the benefits of the program has been Jordyn's ability to kind of laser-focus on finding the target market. Jordyn, how do you do that? How do you keep the team coming back to that? Especially as sometimes it maybe doesn't take that long—sometimes it might feel like you're kind of circling around and around and still aren't finding anyone—and keeping folks motivated to do that or understanding, you know, when are we going to say, "This is it, you know, we're not finding someone"? JORDYN: I'll talk about how it worked in this case. And every team is different and is motivated by different things. And this process is a little different every time, so it's hard to make generalizations. But in this case, what was interesting is that after we did our journalist sprint and we were like, we do want to refocus on startup enthusiasts, but we need to understand a little bit better what we're doing, we actually prototyped a little bit given what we knew, which seems like a bad idea [laughs] on the face of it. It seems premature. The purpose of doing that, then, was to really take a different path to drawing out of each of us what was in our lines. That's, like, so much of the work of a team at this stage is, like, making sure that we're externalizing the things that we're thinking and the assumptions that we have. And it's strange. You would think you would just be like, "Hey, tell me what's in your mind?" But minds don't work that way. You can't just be like, "Hey, mind, what's up?" And then articulate it perfectly in a way that everybody in this group is going to know what you mean. So, prototyping actually drew a bunch of that stuff out. It really...I think that was the moment...I don't know, Josh, how you feel about it. We had been kind of in the doldrums because we did get to the end of that journalists' sprint. And we were like, what are we doing? What have we learned? And prototyping at that moment enabled us to...it was a different way of understanding what we had learned and what we were all now thinking. And it really drew a bunch of dynamics out that it was super helpful. JOSH: It brought some real sharpness to what we thought we'd be able to...the kind of value we thought we could deliver in the early versions of this thing, right? Fast forward two years, who knows? But it brought some sharpness to the kinds of problems that we thought we'd be able to fix and the kinds of problems we thought we couldn't solve. And that also clarified for us, certainly for me, why, oh, here's why this isn't really landing with the journalists, right? And here's why this isn't really landing with some other kinds of folks we were talking to. And -- JORDYN: Biz dev folks. We talked to a bunch of biz dev folks. It wasn't going to land with them, but yeah -- JOSH: They weren't at all excited about it, and then we can kind of understand why. One of the ways that I think about a prototype and I talk about this a lot, and I love doing this. Somebody called this a Pinocchio prototype, the wooden child who wants to be a real boy. Once we had a prototype, we could actually put it onto our actual phones. And I'm not sure how many other people did this on the team besides me but, like, I would carry my phone around with a prototype on it. And every time I thought I might use it, I would pull the damn thing out of my pocket and, like, tap away on the phone. It gave me, again, a very clear sense of the kinds of things I thought we were moving towards solving and the kinds of things that we weren't really solving. LINDSEY: Yeah, Josh, you mentioned there were some exciting developments in the past week. Is that around the prototype? JOSH: This is one. Having the prototype on there was good. It's also really nice to have this be part of a larger team. I was having a hard time. I had been playing with, like, our design team's paper prototype. I was having a hard time communicating what I was trying to do inside of my head. So, I built my own parallel prototype in Google Slides, which was exactly as awesome looking and as functional as everybody listening is imagining it must have been. If you would like your own copy of my Google Slides app development template, please reach out. I will share it [laughs]. But it let me think a little bit, again, the same thing, like, here's how these things fit together. And then it started moving really, really fast. Once we were all putting things down in a way that we could play with, and touch, and talk about in a concrete way, it felt like that part of things started to move really fast. And the quality of our conversations improved with people we were talking to as well. I would say that's half of the things that are really exciting. LINDSEY: Just to continue on the prototype for a second, Jordyn mentioned a major outcome of starting to use the prototype; well, I guess [inaudible 14:37] that you all as a team got better aligned around what you were envisioning for the solution. And then, it also helped you, again, kind of identify the true target market. Are there other things you're already learning from using the prototype and getting it in front of people? JOSH: Yeah, I think there are. By the way, this shouldn't be surprising. This is, like, the classic diverge-converge model that I know thoughtbot uses all the time with not just startup clients when you're building something new. One of the things which, you know, rewind the clock six and a half weeks ago to when we started this thing. I didn't realize how much intelligence would be required behind the scenes to make this thing actually sensible to the final users. And the more we show it to people, the more we realize that, like, intelligence to make things look simple is going to equal people actually using the damn thing. I think we started to see that ourselves in playing with it. But it's really important to have that be validated by actual potential users who aren't, like, in this shit themselves. JORDYN: I mean, immediately, you know, we were able to start showing the prototype to the folks that we were having interviews with, and there's just nothing better than that because they're not going to pull their punches with you. And we got a lot of great immediate sort of spicy feedback [laughs] from people, especially if you're showing them to people who are, like, startup people [laughs], they're just not going to be nice. And so, there was a lot of [crosstalk 15:59]. JOSH: They're like, "Have you considered making this suck less?" JORDYN: Yeah, exactly. "I wouldn't use this at all [laughs]." You're just like, "Okay, thanks." Tell me how you really feel [laughs]. But it's great. I mean, like, there's nothing better than that. Like, I would way rather that than a bunch of people trying to be polite. JOSH: And it also prompts feedback that we wouldn't necessarily have thought of, which is the idea of this. We [inaudible 16:20] thought of this on our own. Like the idea that sometimes you might want to not take an action when you don't really care about a person. But sometimes you really, like, dislike a person so much who you've been talking to you want to never see them again, right? Never show me this person again. It's a thing that we never would have come to, I think, if we hadn't, like, actually been showing the prototype to end users. LINDSEY: Okay, what is the second half of the exciting thing that happened in the past week? JOSH: This is very much a thoughtbot thing. thoughtbot is full of really talented engineers. And over the past couple of days, we've been able to bring a lot of those folks to bear on the question of like, is this thing technically feasible or not? Which was one of my big concerns. And it turns out, that was probably too large a question for the team that we started with. And to be able to, like, do this, like, little discovery spike with, you know, going beyond the three-and-a-half thoughtboter team that we had to some of your most talented, most experienced engineering leads, not forever, but just for, like, a short moment is kind of, for me, at least, like, a real taste of, like, the thoughtbot value is, you know, Jordyn gets to put out a call for assistance, you know, across the company, and people raise their hands and put real-time in. And, you know, we're able to do something in a couple of days that we probably couldn't have done because we have enough people. And, you know, all those, like, network effects of people coming together that could have taken us, you know, weeks or longer just kind of toiling on our own. LINDSEY: For those technical challenges, maybe you don't want to get into specifics, but in broad strokes, can you talk about what some of those considerations are? And maybe at this point, maybe it makes sense to also talk a little bit about, like, how the solution, how you're thinking about the evolution of what the solution is and provides. JOSH: I have an Android phone. I live in the world as a green bubble in a world of blue bubbles. My partner and I are in an interfaith relationship. She has an iPhone. I have an Android phone. And forever, people are accidentally trying to hit up my, like, iMessage account tied to my email address, and the things don't come through. And, all of a sudden, this company someplace in the U.S. figured out some way to, like, reverse engineer the Apple messages iMessages protocol, so I can put iMessages onto my Android phone. They built this thing. It's been, like, all over the tech news recently. This is the problem, if you're trying to bring together all of somebody's social network, is that there is no, like, handy-dandy API for iMessages. There is no handy-dandy API for regular SMS or RCS or any of those other variations of that. There is no handy-dandy API for WhatsApp, for Telegram, sort of ish, kind of maybe for Slack, not really for Discord. It remains to be seen how mature it is for LinkedIn. By the way, email works great, right? If we just build our entire lives off of email, we'd have none of these problems, but we can't. And we had some hypotheses about ways that we could make connecting these other accounts easier. And we just took, like, an awful lot of hands, right? More than two hands. It took more than two hands to figure out if these things were possibilities if those things turn out to be true. And the answer is if they are true, which we're still working to figure out, though it's looking better and better, this isn't a science experiment, right? And if it's not true, then step one is an awful lot of engineer hours to go do what those Beeper Mini folks did and reverse engineer a whole bunch of protocols and systems that were never intended to be open in the first place. JORDYN: I would like to say -- JOSH: Which is why we should all donate to EFF and promote an open internet so that startups like mine don't need to exist. JORDYN: To loop back to your earlier question, Lindsey, about how to keep the team focused on who something is for, this conversation seems like it's not about that. But, to me, this conversation is also about that because we have a long list of messaging platforms that we have heard from folks, like from interviewing them would be useful to have brought into a single place. This was one of the key pain points that Josh has that we heard from other people, which is, like, you connect with people across platforms, right? You might be connected to some on LinkedIn, but you're also emailing with them. Your email history with them is not a complete history of your life with them. None of your online stuff is going to be a complete history because sometimes you actually interact with people [laughs] in reality, which is still, at this moment, not being recorded all the time, but probably not for long. JOSH: As little as possible. JORDYN: [laughs] But still, even within the online world, you're communicating with people across platforms. Maybe you text with someone, maybe you message on LinkedIn, whatever. And having complete context for your relationship with them in a way that makes it really easy to kind of, like, boot up that context in order to reach out to them for some reason, like, maybe you haven't talked in six months, and you just want to remember, where did I leave this relationship? What's going on with this person, right? You're like, where was I talking to them? Oh, I was talking to them in these four places that don't have very good protocols for being brought into the same interface, right? So, like, the stuff is, like, all connected. But to get back to the who question, we have this list of places we'd heard from people, like, in the early interviews and places that Josh was trying to do this connect with people, et cetera. So, it's, like, Slack DMs, and it's email, and it's LinkedIn, whatever. But we also heard Telegram, and we also heard other things. If we don't sufficiently focus on a narrow enough group of people, we risk making the MVP way too big because it needs to connect with every one of these things. And we can't go to market with something that doesn't connect with 12 platforms or something, right? But because we're sufficiently focused, we could actually do the thing where we're like, okay, well, out of this list of platforms, what are, like, the top five? Where is the line? Where's the minimum viability here with what we can connect with that will actually bring value? And I also am an Android user living in an iPhone world. And Josh and I at least have enough awareness to be like, you know what? Maybe Android isn't necessary, even though we would love [laughs] for it to be there. Nine times out of 10, the people that look like us are using iPhones, right? So great, cool. Let's just do the thing. JOSH: Obligatory iPhone test device. JORDYN: Right. I have one, too, but I don't know where it is. So, like, the question of who really matters. Who, like, really helps you focus? If your answer to "Who?" is anybody with a smartphone, well, like, it's going to be really tough to build an actual MVP that's buildable. So, this question that Josh brought in to us, which is, like, "What's technically feasible here?" really intersects very directly with this question of who are we building for? Because you really want to be able to start somewhere. And, you know, if you have a sufficiently red, hot need and it's not, like, to time travel or something that is, like, probably impossible given the laws of our universe, you can find a way, right? And so, the question was, like, why don't we find that so that we can focus on whether it's worth finding a way? And then that intersection of who it's for, what their pain points are, and what's possible with what amount of effort. It all fits together. No single one of those pieces is sufficient for figuring out a path forward. LINDSEY: And are you taking the, you know, okay, we've gotten really good sight on these startup enthusiasts, and these are their top four communication methods; let's try to solve them? Is that the approach? JORDYN: More or less, yeah. Yes. It's like, can we interface with those top...I think for us, it's like a top five, maybe six. JOSH: Five or six. JORDYN: But, like, the first one on there is email, and that's not a problem. Like, we don't...that's fine. LinkedIn is also not a problem; one and two are email, and LinkedIn: good. We're cool with that. That's okay. JOSH: Because every individual has their own thing. So, you know, you may be talking about long tail services, you know, but for the person who uses Telegram as their, like, daily driver, which isn't most people in the U.S., but there's a lot of people abroad, not having Telegram means it isn't useful. And I think that's one of the things hard about this, right? This is a hard business potentially, or it's really easy. We have no idea yet. And that's part of what I find exciting about this is because over the next, you know, week or so, we'll find out how hard a business this is actually, or at least where are the technically difficult parts? LINDSEY: Great segue. What does the next week look like as we've got market niche, prototype, technical feasibility intersectioning, figuring those things out? What exciting things are on the horizon? What's next? JOSH: So, we have about two weeks left, and at the end of two weeks, we're going to end up with a set of high-quality prototypes, which, you know, are easy for any of us to have on our phones, and to flash around to rando strangers we meet at the grocery store because there's no better way to make friends than product testing. And we'll have a good sense of how big and complicated, and complicated in what ways might it be to build this thing. And then, it's time for Josh to make some decisions around, you know, the whole goal of this was to figure out, like, how big of an opportunity is this just to go and do that? What could growth look like? What could pricing look like? Where might the costs be? What would the cost be to build this? Is this, like, a side gig scale thing? Is it a small, you know, angel-funded startup thing? Is this, like, a VC-size thing? I really hope it's not a VC-size thing. And then to think about, you know, what are the resources that would be required to build it, and where might those resources come from? So, at the end of this, two weeks out from now, I think we'll have all the information, you know, that we need. And then, I know a whole bunch of people inside of thoughtbot who are in a great place to provide their own thoughts and advice and experience and feedback on this. And I'll take this to my personal board of directors, including my family, but also, you know, other experienced entrepreneurs and investors I know, and we'll talk through this. And we'll have to go make some decisions, which is a little scary and a little bit fun, but a nice way to kick off 2024. JORDYN: And a lot easier to do after this program. JOSH: We'll have some real information, right? [laughs] JORDYN: Yes. LINDSEY: That's the goal, right? JOSH: Yeah. LINDSEY: Of the incubator to get you in that spot where you can make educated decisions and get others up to speed really quickly with all that research. JOSH: That's right. LINDSEY: That's great. All right. So, you had a call to action earlier. What was that? Oh, if startup enthusiasts are listening, we want to chat with them and talk to them about the solution. JOSH: If you're a founder, if you're a multi-time founder and either done it a couple of times in the past or you're still doing it, reach out. If you are a startup chief of staff and you can define that role for yourself, please reach out. We'd love to talk to you there as well. If you would like a copy of Josh's free wireframing template for mobile apps, please reach out, and I will be happy to provide you that as well. LINDSEY: Amazing. Thank you once again, Josh and Jordyn, for joining and catching us up. It definitely was an exciting update. I can't wait to hear what happens in the final stretch. JOSH: Me too. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guests: Jordyn Bonds and Josh Herzig-Marx .Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

Kent C. Dodds, a JavaScript engineer and teacher known for Epic Web Dev and the Remix web framework, reflects on his journey in tech, including his tenure at PayPal and his transition to full-time teaching. Kent's passion for teaching is a constant theme throughout. He transitioned from corporate roles to full-time education, capitalizing on his ability to explain complex concepts in an accessible manner. This transition was marked by the creation of successful online courses like "Testing JavaScript and Epic React," which have significantly influenced the web development community. An interesting aspect of Kent's career is his involvement with Remix, including his decision to leave Shopify (which acquired Remix) to return to teaching, which led to the development of his latest project, Epic Web Dev, an extensive and innovative web development course. This interview provides a comprehensive view of Kent C. Dodds's life and career, showcasing his professional achievements in web development and teaching, his personal life as a family man, and his unique upbringing in a large family. Epic Web Remix Follow Kent C. Dodds on LinkedIn or X. Visit his website at kentcdodds.com. Follow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn. Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Kent C. Dodds. Kent is a JavaScript engineer and teacher. He has recently released a massive workshop called epicweb.dev. And he is the father of four kids. Kent, thank you for joining me. KENT: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. WILL: Yeah. And it's an honor for me to have you. I am a huge fan. I think you're the one that taught me how to write tests and the importance of it. So, I'm excited to talk to you and just pick your brain and learn more about you. KENT: Oh, thank you. WILL: Yeah. So, I just want to start off just: who is Kent? What do you like to do? Tell us about your family, your hobbies, and things like that. KENT: Yeah, sure. So, you mentioned I'm the father of four kids. That is true. We are actually expecting our fifth child any day now. So, we are really excited to have our growing family. And when I'm not developing software or material for people to learn how to develop software, I'm spending time with my family. I do have some other hobbies and things, but I try to share those with my family as much as I can. So, it's starting to snow around here in Utah. And so, the mountains are starting to get white, and I look forward to going up there with my family to go skiing and snowboarding this season. During the summertime, I spend a lot of time on my one-wheel just riding around town and bring my kids with me when I can to ride bikes and stuff, too. So, that's sort of the personal side of my life. And then, professionally, I have been in this industry developing for the web professionally for over a decade. Yeah, web development has just worked out super well for me. I kind of focused in on JavaScript primarily. And when I graduated with a master's degree in Information Systems at Brigham Young University, I started working in the industry. I bounced around to a couple of different companies, most of them you don't know, but you'd probably be familiar with PayPal. I was there for a couple of years and then decided to go full-time on teaching, which I had been doing as, like, a part-time thing, or, like, on the side all those years. And yeah, when teaching was able to sustain my family's needs, then I just switched full-time. So, that was a couple of years ago that I did that. I think like, 2018 is when I did that. I took a 10-month break to help Remix get off the ground, the Remix web framework. They got acquired by Shopify. And so, I went back to full-time teaching, not that I don't like Shopify, but I felt like my work was done, and I could go back to teaching. So, that's what I'm doing now, full-time teacher. WILL: Wow. Yes, I definitely have questions around that. KENT: [laughs] Okay. WILL: So many. But I want to start back...you were saying you have four kids. What are their ages? KENT: Yeah, my oldest is 11, youngest right now is 6, and then we'll have our fifth one. So, all four of the kids are pretty close in age. And then my wife and I thought we were done. And then last December, we kind of decided, you know what? I don't think we're done. I kind of think we want to do another. So, here we go. We've got a larger gap between my youngest and the next child than we have between my oldest and the youngest child. WILL: [chuckles] KENT: So, we're, like, starting a new family, or [laughs] something. WILL: Yeah [laughs]. I just want to congratulate you on your fifth child. That's amazing. KENT: Thank you. WILL: Yeah. How are you feeling about that gap? KENT: Yeah, we were pretty intentional about having our kids close together because when you do that, they have built-in friends that are always around. And as they grow older, you can do the same sorts of things with them. So, like, earlier this year, we went to Disneyland, and they all had a great time. They're all at the good age for that. And so, they actually will remember things and everything. Yeah, we were pretty certain that four is a good number for us and everything. But yeah, we just started getting this nagging feeling we wanted another one. So, like, the fact that there's a big gap was definitely not in the plan. But I know a lot of people have big gaps in their families, and it's just fine. So, we're going to be okay; just it's going to change the dynamic and change some plans for us. But we're just super excited to have this next one. WILL: I totally understand what you mean by having them close together. So, I have three little ones, and my oldest and my youngest share the same exact birthday, so they're exactly three years apart. KENT: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's actually...that's fun. My current youngest and his next oldest brother are exactly two years apart. They share the same birthday, too [laughs]. WILL: Wow. You're the first one I've heard that their kids share a birthday. KENT: Yeah, I've got a sister who shares a birthday with her son. And I think we've got a couple of birthdays that are shared, but I also have 11 brothers and sisters [laughs]. And so, I have got a big family, lots of opportunity for shared birthdays in my family. WILL: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you about that. How was it? I think you're the 11th. So, you're the youngest of 11? KENT: I'm the second youngest. So, there are 12 of us total. I'm number 11. WILL: Okay, how was that growing up with that many siblings? KENT: I loved it. Being one of the youngest I didn't really...my experience was very different from my older siblings. Where my older siblings probably ended up doing a fair bit of babysitting and helping around the house in that way, I was the one being babysat. And so, like, by the time I got to be, like, a preteen, or whatever, lots of my siblings had already moved out. I was already an uncle by the time I was six. I vaguely remember all 12 of us being together, but most of my growing up was just every other year; I'd have another sibling move out of the house, which was kind of sad. But they'd always come back and visit. And now I just have an awesome relationship with every one of my family members. And I have something, like, 55 nieces and nephews or more. Yeah, getting all of us together every couple of years for reunions is really a special experience. It's a lot of fun. WILL: Yeah. My mom, she had 12 brothers and sisters. KENT: Whoa. WILL: And I honestly miss it because we used to get together all the time. I used to live a lot closer. Most of them are in Louisiana or around that area, and now I'm in South Florida, so I don't get to see them as often. But yeah, I used to love getting together. I had so many cousins, and we got in so much trouble...and it was -- KENT: [laughs] WILL: We loved it [laughs]. KENT: Yeah, that's wonderful. I love that. WILL: Yeah. Well, I want to start here, like, how did you get your start? Because I know...I was doing some research, and I saw that, at one point, you were an AV tech. You were a computer technician. You even did maintenance. Like, what was the early start of your career like, and how did you get into web dev? KENT: I've always been very interested in computers, my interest was largely video games. So, when I was younger, I had a friend who was a computer programmer or, like, would program stuff. We had visions of...I don't know if you're familiar with RuneScape, but it's this game that he used to play, and I would play a little bit. It was just a massive online multiplayer game. And so, we had visions of building one of those and having it just running in the background, making us money, as if that's how that works [laughter]. But he tried to teach me programming, and I just could not get it at all. And so I realized at some point that playing video games all the time wasn't the most productive use of my time on computers, and if I wanted my parents to allow me to be on computers, I needed to demonstrate that I could be productive in learning, and making things, and stuff. So, I started blogging and making videos and just, like, music videos. My friend, who was the programmer, he was into anime, or anime, as people incorrectly pronounce it. And [laughs] there was this website called amv.com or .org or something. It's Anime Music Videos. And so, we would watch these music videos. And I'd say, "I want to make a music video with Naruto." And so, I would make a bunch of music videos from the Naruto videos I downloaded, and that was a lot of fun. I also ran around with a camera to do that. And then, with the blog, I wrote a blog about Google and the stuff that Google was, like, doing because I just thought it was a fascinating company. I always wanted to work at Google. In the process of, like, writing the blog, I got exposed to CSS and HTML, but I really didn't do a whole lot of programming. I also did a little bit of Google Docs. Spreadsheets had some JavaScript macros-type things that you could do. So, I did a little bit of that, but I never really got too far into programming. Then I go to college, I'm thinking, you know what? I think I want to be a video editor. I really enjoy that. And so, my brother, who at the time was working at Micron, he did quality assurance on the memory they were making. So, he would build test automation, software and hardware for testing the memory they build. And so, he recommended that I go into electrical engineering. Because what he would say is, "If you understand computers at that foundational level, you can do anything with computers." And I'd say, "Well, I like computers. And if I go into video editing, I'm going to need to understand computers, too. So yeah, sure, let's let's do that." I was also kind of interested in 3D animation and stuff like that, too. Like, I wasn't very good at it, but I was kind of interested in that, too. So, I thought, like, having a really good foundation on computers would be a good thing for me. Well, I was only at school for a semester when I took a break to go on a mission for my church [inaudible 09:42] mission. And when I got back and started getting back into things, I took a math refresher course. That was, like, a half a credit. It wasn't really a big thing, but I did terrible in it. I did so bad. And it was about that time that I realized, you know what? I've been thinking my whole life that I'm good at math. And just thinking back, I have no idea why or any justification for why I thought I was good at math because in high school, I always struggled with it. I spent so much time with it. And in fact, my senior year, I somehow ended up with a free period of nothing else to do. I don't know how this happened. But, I used that free period to go to an extra edition of my calculus class. So, I was going to twice as much calculus working, like, crazy hard and thinking that I was good at this, and I superduper was not [laughter]. And so, after getting back from my mission and taking that refresher course, I was like, you know what? Math is a really important part of engineering, and I'm not good at it at all, obviously. And so, I've got to pivot to something else. Well, before my mission, as part of the engineering major, you needed to take some programming classes. So, there was a Java programming class that I took and a computer systems class that included a lot of programming. The computer systems was very low level, so we were doing zeros and ones. And I wrote a program in zeros and ones. All that it did was it would take input from the keyboard, and then spit that back out to you as output. That was what it did. But still, you know, many lines of zeros and ones and just, like, still, I can't believe I did that [laughter]. And then we upgraded from that to Assembly, and what a godsend that was [laughs], how wonderful Assembly was after working in machine code. But then we upgraded from that to C, and that's as far as that class went. And then, yeah, my Java class, we did a bunch of stuff. And I just remember thinking or really struggling to find any practicality to what we were doing. Like, in the Java class, we were implementing the link to list data structure. And I was like, I do not care about this. This does not make any sense. Why should I care? We were doing these transistor diagrams in the computer systems class. And why do I care about that? I do not care about this at all. Like, this is not an interesting thing for me. So, I was convinced computer programming was definitely not what I wanted to do. So, when I'm switching from electrical engineering, I'm thinking, well, what do I do? And my dad convinced me to try accounting. That was his profession. He was a certified public accountant. And so, I said, "Okay, I'll try that." I liked the first class, and so I switched my major to go into the business school for accounting. I needed to take the next accounting class, and I hated that so much. It was just dull and boring. And I'm so glad that I got out of that because [laughs] I can't imagine doing anything like that. WILL: [laughs] KENT: But as part of switching over to business school, I discovered information systems. What's really cool about that is that we were doing Excel spreadsheets and building web pages. But it was all, like, with a practical application of business and, like, solving business problems. And then, I was like, oh, okay, so I can do stuff with computers in a practical setting, and that's what got me really interested. So, I switched, finally, to information systems–made it into that program. And I was still not convinced I wanted to do programming. I just wanted to work with computers. What ended up happening is the same time I got into the information systems program, I got married to my wife, and then I got this part-time job at a company called the More Good Foundation. It's a non-profit organization. And one of my jobs was to rip DVDs and upload those videos to YouTube, and then also download videos from one site and upload those to YouTube as well. And so, I was doing a lot of stuff with YouTube and video stuff. And as part of my information systems class, I was taking another Java class. At that same time, I was like, you know, what I'm doing at work is super boring. Like, can you imagine your job is to put in a [inaudible 13:45] and then click a couple of buttons? And, like, it was so boring and error-prone, too. Like, okay, now I've got to type this out and, you know, I got to make sure it's the same, try and copy-paste as much as I can. And it was not fun. And so, I thought, well, I'm pretty sure there are pieces of this that I could automate. And so, with the knowledge that I was getting in my information systems programming class, that was another Java class, I decided to write a program that automated a bunch of my stuff. And so, I asked my boss, like, "Can I automate this with writing software?" And I'm so glad that they said I could. WILL: [laughs] KENT: Because by the end of it, I had built software that allowed me to do way more than I ever could have before. I ended up uploading thousands of videos to their YouTube channels, which would have taken years to do. And they ended up actually being so happy with me. They had me present to the board of directors when they were asking for more money [laughs] and stuff. And it was really awesome. But still, I was not interested in being a programmer. Programming, to me, was just a means to an end. WILL: Oh, wow. KENT: Yeah, I guess there was just something in me that was like, I am not a programmer. So, anyway, further into the program of information systems, I interned as a business intelligence engineer over that next summer, and I ended up staying on there. And while I was supposed to be a business intelligence engineer, I did learn a lot about SQL, and star schema, and denormalized databases to optimize for read speed and everything. I learned a lot about that. But I just kept finding myself in positions where I would use my programming experience to automate things that were problematic for us in the business realm. And this was all still Java. It was there that I finally realized, you know what? I think I actually do want to be a programmer. I actually really do enjoy this. And I like that it's practical, and it makes sense for me, so… WILL: What year was that? KENT: That would have been 2012. Then I got a new job where my job was actually to be a programmer at a company called Domo, where they do business intelligence, actually. So, it got my foot in the door a little bit since I was a business intelligence engineer already. I got hired on, actually, as a QA engineer doing automated testing, but I never really got into that. And they shifted me over pretty quick into helping with the web app. And that is when I discovered JavaScript, and the whole, like, everything flooded out from there. I was like, wow, I thought I liked programming, but I had no idea how fun it could be. Because I felt like the chains had been broken. I no longer have to write Java. I can write JavaScript, and this was just so much better. WILL: [laughs] KENT: And so, yeah, I was there for a year and a half before I finally graduated. And I took a little break to work at USAA for a summer internship. And when I came back, I had another year and then converted to full-time. And so, yeah, there's my more detail than you were probably looking for, story of how I got into programming [laughs]. WILL: No, I actually love it because like I said, I've used your software, your teachings, all that. And it's amazing to hear the story of how you got there. Because I feel like a lot of times, we just see the end result, but we don't know the struggle that you went through of even trying to find your way through what your purpose was, what you're trying to do. Because, at one point, you said you were trying to do accounting, then you were trying to do something else. So, it's amazing to see, like, when it clicked for you when you got into JavaScript, so that's amazing. KENT: Yeah, it is kind of funny to think, like, some people have the story of, like, I knew I wanted to be a programmer from the very beginning, and it's just kind of funny for me to think back and, like, I was pretty certain I didn't want to be a programmer. WILL: [laughs] KENT: Like, not only did I, like, lots of people will say, "I never really thought about it, and then I saw it, and it was great." But I had thought about it. And I saw it, and I thought it was awful [laughter]. And so, yeah, I'm really glad that it worked out the way it did, though, because programming has just been a really fun thing. Like, I feel so blessed to be doing something that I actually enjoy doing. Like so many of our ancestors, they would go to work because they cared about their family and they just wanted to feed their family. I'm so grateful to them for doing that. I am so lucky that I get to go to work to take care of my family, but also, I just love doing it. WILL: Yeah, I feel the same way, so yeah, totally agree. After you found out about JavaScript, when did you figure out that you want to teach JavaScript? What was that transition like? KENT: I've been teaching for my whole life. It's ingrained in my religion. Even as a kid, you know, I'd prepare a talk, a five-minute talk, and stand up in front of 30 of my peers. And even when you're an early teenager, you get into speaking in front of the entire congregation. It took a while before I got good enough at something, enough hubris to think that people would care about what I have to say -- WILL: [laughs] KENT: Outside of my religion where, like, they're sitting there, and I've been asked to speak, and so they're going to listen to me. And so, when I started getting pretty good at programming, I decided, hey, I want to teach this stuff that I'm learning. And so, when I was still at school and working at Domo, the business intelligence company, one of our co-workers, Dave Geddes, he put together a workshop to teach AngularJS because we were migrating from Backbone to Angular. And I asked him if I could use his workshop material to teach my classmates. This was, like, soon after ng-conf, the first ng-conf, which my co-workers at Domo actually put on. So, I wasn't involved in the organization, but I was very much present when it was being organized. I attended there and developed a relationship with Firebase with the people there. I was actually...they had a developer evangelist program, which they called Torchbearers or something. And actually, that was my idea to call them Torchbearers. I think they wanted to call us torches, and I'm like, that just doesn't make sense. WILL: [laughs] KENT: I developed a relationship with them. And I asked them, "Hey, I want to teach my classmates AngularJS. Would you be interested in sponsoring some pizza and stuff?" And they said, "Yeah, we'll send you stickers, and hot sauce, and [laughs] a bunch of..." Like, they sent us, like, headphones [laughs] and stuff. So, I was like, sweet. I taught my classmates AngularJS in a workshop, brought a bunch of pizza, and it was, you know, just an extracurricular thing. And actually, the recording is still on my YouTube channel, so if you want to go look at one of my early YouTube videos. I was very into publishing video online. So, if you are diligent, you'll be able to find some of my very early [laughter] videos from my teenage years. But anyway, so, yes, I've been teaching since the very beginning. As soon as I graduated from college, I started speaking at meetups. I'd never been to a meetup before, and I just saw, oh, they want a speaker. I can talk about something. WILL: Wow. KENT: And not realizing that, like, meetups are literally always looking for speakers. This wasn't some special occasion. WILL: [laughs] KENT: And one of the meetups I spoke at was recorded and put on YouTube. And the guy who started Egghead io, John Lindquist, he is local here in Utah. And he saw that I spoke at that meetup, but he wasn't able to attend. So, he watched the recording, and he thought it was pretty good. He thought I would do a good job turning that into a video course. And that first video course paid my mortgage. WILL: Wow. KENT: And I was blown away. This thing that I had been doing just kind of for fun speaking at meetups, and I realized, oh, I can actually, like, make some legit good money out of this. From there, I just started making more courses on the side after I put the kids to bed. My wife is like, "Hey, I love you, but I want you to stay away for now because I've just been with these tiny babies all day. WILL: [laughs] KENT: And I just need some alone time." WILL: Yes. KENT: And so, I was like, okay. WILL: [laughs] KENT: I'll just go and work on some courses. And so, I spent a lot of time for the next couple of years doing course material on the side. I reached out to Frontend Masters and just told them, "Hey, I've been doing courses for Egghead." I actually met Marc Grabanski at a conference a couple of years before. And so, we established a little bit of relationship. And I just said, "Hey, I want to come and teach there." So, I taught at Frontend Masters. I started putting on my own workshops at conferences. In fact, just a few months after graduating, I got accepted to speak at a conference. And only after I was accepted did I realize it was in Sweden [laughter]. I didn't think to look where in the world this conference was. So, that was my first international trip, actually, and I ended up speaking there. I gave, actually, two talks. One of them was a three-hour talk. WILL: Whoa. KENT: Which was, yeah, that was wild. WILL: [laughs] KENT: And then, yeah, I gave a two-day workshop for them. And then, I flew straight from there to Amsterdam to give another talk and also do a live in-person podcast, which I'd been running called ngAir, an Angular podcast. It just kept on building from there until finally, I created testingjavascript.com. And that was when I realized, oh, okay, so this isn't just a thing I can use to pay my mortgage, and that's nice. This is, like, a thing I can do full-time. Because I made more with Testing JavaScript than I made from my PayPal salary. WILL: Oh wow. KENT: I was like, oh, I don't need both of these things. I would rather work half as much one full-time job; that's what I want, one full-time job and make enough to take care of my family. And I prefer teaching. So, that's when I left PayPal was when I released Testing JavaScript. WILL: Wow. So, for me, I think so many times the imposter syndrome comes up whenever I want to teach or do things at the level you're saying you're doing. Because I love teaching. I love mentoring. I remember when I came into development, it was hard. I had to find the right person to help me mentor. So now, I almost made a vow to myself that if someone wants to learn and they're willing to put in the energy, I'm going to sit down however long it takes to help them because I remember how hard it was for me whenever I was doing it. So, you said in 2014, you were only a couple years doing development. How did you overcome impostor syndrome to stand in front of people, teach, go around the world, and give talks and podcasts? Like, how did you do that portion? KENT: Part of it is a certain level of hubris like I said. Like, you just have to be willing to believe that somebody's going to care. You know, the other part of it is, it's a secret to getting really, really good at something. They sometimes will say, like, those who can't do teach. That's total baloney because it requires a lot of being able to do to get you in a position where you can teach effectively. But the process of teaching makes you better at the process of doing as well. It's how you solidify your experience as a whatever. So, if you're a cook, you're really good at that; you will get better by teaching other people how to cook. There's an element of selfishness in what I do. I just want to get really, really good at this, and so I'm going to teach people so that I can. So yeah, I think there's got to be also, like, a little bit of thick skin, too, because people are going to maybe not like what you have to share or think that you're posing or whatever. Learn how to let that slide off you a little bit. But another thing is, like, as far as that's concerned, just being really honest about what your skill set is. So, if somebody asks me a question about GraphQL, I'm going to tell them, "Well, I did use GraphQL at PayPal, but I was pretty limited. And so, I don't have a lot of experience with that," and then I'll answer their question. And so, like, communicating your limitations of knowledge effectively and being okay being judged by people because they're going to judge you. It just is the way it is. So, you just have to learn how to cope well with that. There are definitely some times where I felt like I was in over my head on some subjects or I was involved in a conversation I had no business being there. I actually felt that a lot when I was sent as PayPal's delegate to the TC39 meetings. Wow, what am I doing here? I've only been in the industry for, like, two or three years at [laughter] that point. It takes a certain level of confidence in your own abilities. But also, like, being realistic about your inexperience as well, I think, is important too. WILL: Yeah, I know that you had a lot of success, and I want to cover that next. But were there any failures when you were doing those teaching moments? KENT: Years ago, Babel was still a new thing that everybody was using to compile their JavaScript with new syntax features down to JavaScript that the browser could run. There was ES Modules that was introduced, and lots of us were doing global window object stuff. And then we moved to, like, defining your dependencies with r.js or RequireJS. And then, there was CommonJS, and Universal Module Definition, and that sort of thing. So, ECMAScript modules were very exciting. Like, people were really interested in that. And so, Babel added support to it. It would compile from the module syntax down to whatever you wanted: CommonJS or...well, I'm pretty sure it could compile to RequireJS, but I compiled it to CommonJS. And so, there was a...yeah, I would say it's a bug in Babel at that time, where it would allow you to write your ES modules in a way that was not actually spec-compliant. It was incorrect. So, I would say export default some object, and then in another module, I would say import. And then, I'd select properties off of the object that I exported, that default I exported. That was allowed by Babel, but it is superduper, not how ECMAScript modules work. Well, the problem is that I taught, like, a ton of people how to use ECMAScript modules this way. And when I realized that I was mistaken, it was just, like, a knife to the heart because I was, like, I taught so many people this wrong thing. And so, I wrote a blog post about it. I gave a big, long talk titled “More Than You Want to Know About ECMAScript Modules,” where I talk about that with many other things as well. And so, yeah, just trying to do my part to make up for the mistake that I made. So yes, I definitely have had mistakes like that. There's also, like, the aspect that technology moves at a rapid pace. And so, I have old things that I would show people how to do, which they still work just as well as they worked back then. But I wouldn't recommend doing it that way because we have better ways now. For some people, the old way to do it is the only way they can do it based on the constraints they have and the tools that they're using and stuff. And so, it's not, like, it's not valuable at all. But it is a struggle to make sure that people understand that, like, this is the way that you do it if you have to do it this way, but, like, we've got better ways. WILL: I'm glad you shared that because it helps. And I love how you say it: when I make a mistake, I own up to it and let everyone know, "Hey, I made a mistake. Let's correct it and move on." So, I really like that. KENT: Yeah, 100%. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. WILL: I want to go back to what you were saying. When you left PayPal, you released Testing JavaScript. How did you come up with the idea to write a Testing JavaScript course? And, two, how long did it take to take off and be successful? KENT: That was a pretty special thing, honestly. In 2018, I had put together a bunch of workshops related to testing. There was this conference called Assert(js) that invited me to come, taught them. In the year prior, I went to Midwest JS and taught how to test React. I had this material about testing. I'd gotten into testing just because of open-source stuff. I didn't want to have to manually go through all my stuff again every time I wanted to check for breakages and stuff, so that got me into testing. And whatever I'm into is what I'm going to teach. So, I started teaching that testing. And then my friend, Ryan Florence, put together...he separated from Michael Jackson with React Training, and built his own thing called Workshop.me. He asked me to join up with him. And he would, like, put together these workshops for me, and I would just...my job was just to show up and teach. And so, I did that. I have a picture, actually, in this blog post, The 2010s Decade in Review, of me in front of 60 people at a two-day workshop at Trulia in San Francisco. WILL: Oh, wow. KENT: And this is where I was teaching my testing workshop. Well, what's interesting about that photo is that two weeks before that, I had gotten really frustrated with the tool that everybody uses or used at the time for testing React, and that was Enzyme. And so I was preparing this workshop or working on it. I had already delivered it a number of times, but I was working on it, improving it, as I always do [laughs] when I'm preparing. WILL: [laughs] KENT: I can never give the same workshop twice, I guess. And I was just so frustrated that Enzyme was so difficult to work with. And, like, I was going to prepare this document that said, "Here are all the things you should never do with Enzyme. Like, Enzyme encourages you to do these things; you should not do these things. And let me explain why." And I just hated that I needed a document like that. And so, I tweeted, "I'm seriously starting to think that I should make my own very small testing lib and drop Enzyme entirely. Most of Enzyme's features are not at all useful and many damaging to my test bases. I'd rather have something smaller that encourages better practices." And so, I tweeted that March 15th, 2018. I did that. I did exactly that. What I often do in my workshops is I try to build the abstraction that we're going to use so that you can use it better. So, I was, like, building Enzyme, and I realized the jump between what I had built, the little utilities that I had built as part of the workshop, from that to Enzyme was just a huge leap. And so, I thought, you know what? These utilities that I have built to teach Enzyme are actually really good. What if I just turned that into a testing utility? And that became Testing Library, which, fast forward to today, is the number one testing library for React. And it's recommended for testing React, and Vue, and Angular. The ideas that are in Testing Library got adopted by Playwright. If you're writing tests for anything in the browser, you are very likely using something that was either originally developed by me or inspired by the work that I did. And it all came from that testing workshop that I was working on. So, with that, I had not only that testing workshop; I had a number of other workshops around testing. And so I approached Joel Hooks from Egghead.io. I say, "Hey, I'm getting ready to record a bunch of Egghead courses. I've got, like, six or seven courses I want to do." And he'd seen my work before, you know, I was a very productive course creator. And he said, "Hey, how about we, you know, we've been thinking about doing this special thing. How about we make a website just dedicated to your courses?" And I said, "That sounds great." I was a little bit apprehensive because I knew that putting stuff on Egghead meant that I had, like, a built-in audience and everything that was on Egghead, so this would be really the first time of me just branching out with video material on my own. Because, otherwise, if it wasn't Egghead, it was Frontend Masters, and there was the built-in audience there. But yeah, we decided to go for it. And we released it in, I think, November. And it was that first week...which is always when you make the most is during the launch period. But that launch week, I made more than my PayPal salary for the entire year. And so, that was when I realized, oh, yeah, okay, let's go full-time on this because I don't need two PayPal salaries. I just need one. And then I can spend more time with my family and stuff. And especially as the kids are getting older, they're staying up later, and I want to hang out with them instead of with my computer at night [laughter], and so... WILL: I love how you explain that because I came in around 2018, 2019. And I remember Enzyme, and it was so confusing, so hard to work with, especially for, you know, a junior dev that's just trying to figure it out. And I remember Testing JavaScript and then using that library, and it was just so much easier to, like, grab whatever you needed to grab. Those utils made the biggest difference, and still today, they make a huge difference. So yes, I just resonate with what you're saying. That's amazing. KENT: Aw, thank you so much. WILL: Yeah. You did Testing JavaScript. And then what was your next course that you did? KENT: I quit PayPal, go full-time teaching. That first year, I actually did an update to Testing JavaScript. There were a couple of changes in Testing Library and other things that I needed to update it for. And then I started working on Epic React. So, while I was doing all this testing stuff, I was also very into React, creating a bunch of workshops around that. I was invited to speak all over the world to talk about React. And I had a couple of workshops already for React. So, I was invited to give workshops at these conferences about React. And so, I thought, you know, let's do this again, and we'll do it with React this time. The other thing was, I'd never really planned on being the testing guy. It just kind of happened, and I actually didn't really like it either. I wanted to be more broad than just testing. So, that kind of motivated me to say, hey, let's do something with React to be a little bit more broad. Yeah, so I worked on putting those workshops together and delivered them remotely. And then, yeah, COVID hit, and just really messed everything up [laughs] really bad. So, I had everything done on my end for Epic React by March of 2020, which is, like, immediately after COVID got started, in the U.S. at least. And so, yeah, then we actually didn't end up releasing Epic React until October that year, which, honestly [laughs], was a little bit frustrating for me because I was like, "Hey, guys, I have recorded all the videos and everything. Can we get this released?" But, like, that just was a really rough year for everybody. But yeah, so Egghead got the site put together. I did a bunch of interviews and stuff. And then we launched in October of 2020. That was way bigger than Testing JavaScript because Testing JavaScript was still very informed by my experience as an Egghead instructor, which, typically, the Egghead courses are, like, a video where watch me do this thing, and then you'll learn something and go apply it to your own stuff. And that's kind of what Testing JavaScript was built as. But as part of the update of Testing JavaScript in 2019, I added another workshop module called Testing Node Applications. And in that one, I decided, hey, typically, I would have a workshop version of my material and a course version. The workshop version had like instructions and exercises. And the course version was no instructions or anything. It was just, like, watch these videos. And it was just me doing the exercises. And with the update of Testing JavaScript, I added that Testing Node workshop, and I said, hey, what if we just, like, embrace the fact that these are exercises, and it's just, like, me recording the workshop? How I would deliver the workshop? And so, I tested that out, and that went really well. And so, I doubled down on that with Epic React. And I said, okay, now, this isn't just, like, watch these videos. This is a do the exercise and then watch me do the exercise. So, Epic React was not only a lot more material but the format of the material was more geared for retention and true practice and learning. And so, Epic React ended up doing much better than Testing JavaScript, and even still, is still doing a remarkable job as far as course material is concerned. And, like, so many people are getting a lot of really great knowledge from Epic React. So yeah, very gratifying to have that. WILL: Once again, I've used Epic React. It's taught me so many...stretched me. And I do like the format, so yes, I totally agree with that, yeah. The next thing, Remix, correct? KENT: Yeah. So, how I got into Remix, around the same time we finished recording Epic React videos, I was doing some other stuff kind of to keep content going and stuff while we were waiting to launch Epic React. And around that same time, my friend Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson––they were doing the React training thing. And so, we were technically competitors. Like I said, Ryan and I kind of joined forces temporarily for his Workshop Me thing, but that didn't end up working out very well. And Michael really wanted Ryan back, and so they got back together. And their React training business went way better than it had before. They were hiring people and all sorts of stuff. And then, a training business that focuses on in-person training just doesn't do very well when COVID comes around. And so, they ended up having to lay off everybody and tried to figure out, okay, now what are we going to do? Our income has gone overnight. This is a bit of a simplification. But they decided to build software and get paid for it like one does. So, they started building Remix. Ryan, actually, around that time, moved back to Utah. He and I would hang out sometimes, and he would share what he was working on with Michael. We would do, like, Zoom calls and stuff, too. I just got really excited about what they were working on. I could see the foundation was really solid, and I thought it was awesome. But I was still working on Epic React. I end up launching Epic React. He launches Remix the very next month as a developer preview thing. Yeah, it definitely...it looked a lot like current Remix in some ways but very, very different in lots of others. But I was super hooked on that. And so, I paid for the developer preview and started developing my website with it. And around the next year in August, I was getting close to finishing my website. My website is, like, pretty legit. If you haven't gone to kentcdodds.com. Yet, it is cooler than you think it is. There's a lot that goes into that website. So, I had a team help me with the product planning and getting illustrations and had somebody help me implement the designs and all that stuff. It was a pretty big project. And then, by August of 2021, Ryan and I were talking, and I said, "Hey, listen, I want to update Epic React to use Remix because I just think that is the best way to build React applications. But I have this little problem where Remix is a paid framework. That's just going to really reduce the number of people who are interested in learning what I have to teach. And on top of that, like, it just makes it difficult for people to test things out." And so, he, around that time, was like, "Hey, just hold off a little bit. We've got some announcements." And so, I think it was September when they announced that they'd raised VC money and they were going to make Remix open source. That was when Ryan said, "Hey, listen, Kent, I think that it's awesome you want to update Epic React to use Remix. But the problem is that Remix isn't even 1.0 yet. The community is super small. It needs a lot of help. If you release a course on Remix right now, then you're not going to get any attention because, like, nobody even knows what it is." So, part of me is like, yeah, that's true. But also, the other part of me is like, how do people find out what it is [laughs] unless there's, like, material about it? But he was right. And he said, "Listen, we've got a bunch of VC money. I've always wanted to work with you. How about we just hire you? And you can be a full-time teacher about Remix. But you don't have to charge anything. You just, like, make a bunch of stuff for free about Remix." I said, "That sounds great. But, you know, to make that worth my while because I'm really happy with what I'm doing with this teaching thing, like, I'm going to need a lot of Remix." And so, Michael Jackson was like, "How about we just make you a co-founder, and we give you a lot of Remix?" And I said, "Okay, let's do this." And so I jumped on board with them as a year-delayed co-founder. I guess that's pretty common. But, like, that felt kind of weird to me [laughs] to be called a co-founder. But yeah, so I joined up with them. I worked on documentation a little bit, mostly community building. I ran Remix Conf. Shopify was interested in what we were doing. And we were interested in what Shopify was doing because, at the time, they were working on Hydrogen, which was one of the early adopters of React Server Components. And, of course, everybody was interested in whether Remix was going to be adding support for server components. And Ryan put together a couple of experiments and found out that server components were nowhere near ready. And we could do better than server components could as of, you know, the time that he wrote the blog posts, like, two years ago. So, Hydrogen was working with server components. And I put us in touch with the Hydrogen team—I think it was me—to, like, talk with the Hydrogen team about, like, "Hey, how about instead of spending all this time building your own framework, you just build on top of Remix then you can, you know, make your Shopify starter projects just, like, a really thin layer on top of Remix and people will love it? And this is very important to us because we need to get users, especially really big and high profile users, so people will take us seriously." And so, we have this meeting. They fly a bunch of their people out to Salt Lake. They're asking us questions. We're asking them questions and saying, "Hey, listen, this is why server components are just not going to work out for you." Well, apparently, they didn't listen to us. It felt like they were just like, "No, we're highly invested in this. We've already sunk all this cost into this, but we're going to keep going." And they did end up shipping Hydrogen version 1 on top of server components, which I just thought was a big mistake. And it wasn't too long after that they came back and said, "Hey, we're kind of interested in having you guys join Shopify." So, right after Remix Conf, I go up into Michael's room at the hotel with Ryan. And they say, "Hey, listen, Kent, we're talking with Shopify about selling Remix and joining Shopify," and kind of bounced back and forth on whether we wanted to do it. All of us were just not sure. Because when I joined Remix, I was thinking, okay, we're going to build something, and it's going to be huge. This is going to be bigger than Vercel, like multibillion-dollar company. So, I really kind of struggled with thinking, hey, we're selling out. Like, we're just getting started here. So, Ryan and I ended up at RenderATL in Atlanta at that conference. We were both speaking there. And Ryan didn't fill out the right form. So, he actually didn't have a hotel room [laughs], and so he ended up staying in my room. I intentionally always get a double bedroom just in case somebody needs to stay with me because somebody did that for me once, and I just...it was really nice of them. So, I've always done that since. And so, I said, "Yeah, Ryan, you can stay with me." And so, we spent just a ton of time together. And this was all while we were trying to decide what to do with Shopify. And we had a lot of conversations about, like, what do we want for Remix in the future? And it was there that I realized, oh if I want to take this to, like, multi-billion dollar valuation, I've got to do things that I am not at all interested in doing. Like, you've got to build a business that is worth that much money and do business-related things. On top of all of that, to get any money out of it...because I just had a percentage of the company, not actually any money. There was no stock. So, the only way you can get money out of a situation like that is if you have a liquidation event like an IPO, which sounds, like, awful—I [laughs] would hate to go through an IP0—or you have to be bought. And if you're worth $2 billion, or 3, or whatever, who can buy you? There's almost nobody who can buy you at that valuation. Do you really want to outprice anybody that could possibly buy you? And then, on top of that, to get there, that's, like, a decade worth of your life of working really superduper hard to get to that point, and there's no guarantee. Ryan would always say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. He was saying Shopify is a bird in the hand, and we do not know what the future holds. And so, we were all finally convinced that, yeah, we want to sell, and so we decided, yeah, let's sell. And as the sale date grew closer, I was getting excited because I was like, oh, I can be back on the TC39 because Shopify is, like, I don't know if they're actually sending delegates to the TC39, but I'm sure that they would be interested if I ask them to, like, "Hey, let's be involved in the evolution of JavaScript." And I know they're on the Web Working Group. Like, they're on a bunch of different committees and stuff. And I just thought it'd be really cool to get involved in the web platform again. And then, on top of that, I just thought, you know what? I'll just spend all my time teaching Shopify developers how to use Remix. That sounds like a lot of fun. As things drew closer, I got more and more uneasy about that. And I thought, you know, I could probably do just as well for myself by going full-time teacher again. I've done this thing before. I just really like being a teacher and, like, having total control over everything that I do. And if I work at Shopify, they're going to tell me, "Hey, you need to, like, do this, and that, and the other." And I don't know if I want to go back to that. And so, I decided, this is awesome. Super, super good job, folks. I think I've done everything for you that you need me to do. I'm going to bail out. And so, yeah, Shopify wasn't super jazzed about that. But the deal went through anyway. And that's how I ended my time at Shopify. WILL: I love it. It's lining up perfectly because you say you left Shopify to go back doing more teaching. And then you released another course; that's Epic Web, correct? KENT: Right. That was the reason I left Shopify or I didn't join up with Shopify is because I wanted to work on Epic Web. In this 2010s blog post, one of the last things that I mention...toward the bottom, there's a section, KCD EDU, which is basically, like, I wanted to help someone go from zero to my level as an engineer in a single place where I teach just all of the things that I can teach to get somebody there. And so I wanted to call it KCD EDU, but I guess you have to be an accredited university to get that domain or something. But that was the idea. Erin Fox, back in 2020 she said, "I'm expecting you to announce your online Kent C. Dodds engineering bootcamp." And I replied, "I'm planning on doing this, no joke." So, I've been wanting to do this for a really long time. And so, leaving Remix was like, yeah, this is what I'm going to go do. I'm going to go build KCD EDU. And I was talking with Ryan at some point about, like, what I was planning on doing in the future. And something he said or something I said in that conversation made me realize, oh, shoot, I want to build Epic Web Dev. So, I've got Epic React. I don't want Epic Remix. I want people to, like, be web developers. Remix is just, like, an implementation detail. And so, I went and I was relieved to find that the domain was still available: epicweb.dev, and so I bought that. And so, I was always planning on, like, even while I was at Remix, eventually, I would leave Remix and go build Epic Web Dev. So, that's what I did. Starting in August, I decided, okay, how about this: I will build a legit real-world web application, and then I will use that to teach people how to build legit real-world web applications from start to finish. If it's included as, like, knowledge you would need to build this web app, then that's knowledge you need to be able to build a full-stack application. That was the idea. So, I started live streaming in, like, August or September, and I would live stream almost everyday development of this web app. So, people can go and watch those on my YouTube channel. I would livestream for, like, sometimes six hours at a time with breaks every 45 minutes. So, I'd just put it on a break slide, go for a quick walk, or take a drink, whatever, and then I would come back. And I would just, like, so much development and live streaming for a long time. Once I got, like, in a pretty good place with that, the app I was building was called Rocket Rental. It's like Airbnb for rocket ships. So, you could rent, like, your own rocket ship to other people to fly. So, it had to be, like, realistic enough that, like, you could relate it to whatever you were building but not realistic enough that people would actually think it was a real product [laughs]. I worked with Egghead again. They actually have a sister company now called Skill Recordings that's responsible for these types of products. And so, I was working with Skill Recordings on, like, they would get me designs. And then I would, like, work with other people to help implement some of those designs. And then, I started working on turning this stuff into workshops. And with Epic React, we have this workshop app that you run locally so that you can work in your own editor, in your own environment, and with your own editor plugins and all that stuff. I want you to practice the way that you're going to actually exercise that practice when you're done––when you're working at work. And so we have this workshop app with Epic React. Well, that was built with Create React app, very limited on what you could do. And so, I started working on a new workshop app that I just called KCD Shop, that was built with Remix. And so, now we've got a bunch of server-side stuff we can do. And this server side is running on your machine. And so, so much stuff that I can do with this thing. One of the big challenges with Epic React was that the video you watch is on epicreact.dev, but the exercises you run are on localhost. And so, you have to keep those things in sync. You'd see, okay, I'm in exercise one on the videos. Let me go find exercise one in the app and then find the file exercise one. So, you've got, like, three different things you've got to keep in sync. And so, with the workshop app for Epic Web, I said, how about we make it so that we can embed the video into the app? And so, you just have localhost running, and you see the video right above the instructions for the exercise. And so, you watch the video that kind of introduces the problem that you're going to be doing, and then you read the instructions. And then we can also make it so that we have links you can click or buttons you can click in the app that will open your editor exactly where you're supposed to go. So you don't have to keep anything in sync. You go to the app, and you watch the video. You read the instructions. You click this button. It opens your editor. And so, that's exactly what I did. And it's an amazing experience. It is phenomenal, not just for the workshop learners but for me, as a workshop developer, like, creating the workshop––it's just been phenomenal. Because, like, we also have this diff view where you can see the difference between your work in progress and the solution. So, if you get stuck, then it's very easy to see where you went wrong. It also means that we can build even very large applications as part of our workshop and our exercise where there are dozens or hundreds of files. And you don't have to worry about finding them because it'll tell you exactly which ones you need to be working in, so all sorts of really, really cool things. So, this workshop app––actually, took a lot of time and effort to build. But now that it's done, like, people are going through it now, and they're just loving it. So, I built the workshop app, I put the first workshop of Rocket Rental into this workshop app, and I delivered it. And I found out very quickly that a full application with all the bells and whistles you'd expect, like, tons of different routes and stuff, was just too much. Even with the workshop app, it was just really pretty difficult for people to gain enough context around what they were building to be effective. So, I was concerned about that. But then, around the same time, I started realizing that I had a marketing problem. And that is that with Testing JavaScript, people know that they're customers because they're like, I'm a JavaScript developer, and I know how to test––boom. I'm a Testing JavaScript customer. With Epic React, I join this company; they're using React; I need to know React, boom. I'm a customer of Epic React. But with something like Epic Web, it's just so broad that, like, yeah, I am a web developer. I just don't know if I'm a customer to Epic Web. Like, is Epic Web for only really advanced people, or is it only for really beginner people? Or is it only for people who are using this set of tools or... Like, it's just a very difficult thing to, like, identify with. And so I wanted to de-emphasize the fact that we used Remix because the fact is that you can walk away from this material and work in a Next.js app or a SvelteKit app and still use so much of the knowledge that you gained in that environment. So, I didn't want to focus on the fact that we're using any particular set of tools because the tools themselves I select them, not only because I think that they are really great tools but also because the knowledge you gain from these tools is very transferable. And I'm going to teach it in a way that's very transferable. That was the plan. But I still had this issue, like, I need people to be able to identify themselves as customers of this thing. So, what I decided to do through some, like, hints and inspiration from other people was how about I turn Rocket Rental into a much simpler app and make that a project starter? And while I was at Remix, actually, I directed the creation of this feature called Remix Stacks. It's basically the CLI allows you to create a Remix app based on a template. I said I can make a Remix Stack out of this, and I called it the Epic Stack. And so, just took all of the concepts that came from Rocket Rental; applied it to a much simpler app. It's just a note-taking app, but it has, like, all of the features that you would need to build in a typical application. So, it's got a database. It's got deployment, GitHub integration. So, you have GitHub Actions to run tests and stuff. It has the tests. It has authentication already implemented, and even two-factor auth, and third-party auth, and file upload, and, like, just tons and tons of stuff built in. And so, people can start a new project and ship that and have a lot of success, like, skip all the basic stuff. So, I presented that at Remix Conf. I wasn't working at Remix anymore, but they asked me to run Remix Conf again, so I did. And I told them, "If I'm running it this year, I'm going to select myself to speak." And I spoke and introduced the Epic Stack there. And then that was when I started to create the workshops based on the Epic Stack. And so, now it was no longer we're going to have workshops to build Rocket Rental; it was we're going to have workshops to build the Epic Stack, with the idea being that if you build the thing, you are able to use it better, like, still following the same pattern I did with Testing JavaScript where we build a framework first. Like, before you start using Jest, we're building Jest and same with Testing Library. We do the same thing with React. Before we bring in React, I teach you how to create DOM nodes yourself and render those to the page and all of that. And so, here with Epic Web, I'm going to teach you how to build the framework that you can use to build applications. So, that is what Epic Web is, it's effectively we're building the Epic Stack. In the process, you learn all about really basic things, like, how do you get styles onto the page all the way to really complex things like, how do you validate a user's email? Or how do you implement two-factor auth? Or how do you create a test database? So, you don't have to mock out the database, but you can still run your test in isolation. Around this time was when my wife and I were trying to become pregnant. And we got the news that we were expecting, and we were super excited. And so, I'm thinking, okay, I've got to ship this thing before the baby comes. Because who knows what happens after this baby comes? So, I am talking with Skill Recordings. I'm saying, "We've got to get this done by October." I think it was May. And so, I was thinking like, okay, I've probably got, like, maybe eight days worth of workshops here. And so, kind of outlined all of the workshops. Like, I know what needs to be included. I know what the end looks like because I've got the Epic Stack. The end is the Epic Stack. The beginning is, like, a brand new create Remix app creation right there. So, I know what the start and the end looks like. I kind of can figure out how much time I need to teach all of that. And I said, "Let's do eight days." And so, we got that scheduled and started selling tickets. And we sold out 30 tickets in just a couple of days, and that's what we originally planned for. I'm like, well, gosh, I can handle 80 people in a workshop. I've done that before, but that's about as far as I go. I don't really like going that much. In fact, online, especially, I only like to go up to, like, 40. But we said, "Hey, let's knock this out of the park." So, we doubled it, and we sold another 30 seats. And so, it was sold out before even the early bird sale was over. So, that was pretty encouraging. The problem was that I hadn't actually developed this material. I'd already given one workshop about testing with Rocket Rental, and I'd given one workshop about the fundamentals with Rocket Rental. But I hadn't done anything of the authentication or, the forms, or data modeling. Also, like, Epic Notes app is different from Rocket Rental. So, I got to rebuild those workshops. Like, the first workshop was going to start in, like, two weeks, maybe three weeks. And so, I'm working on these workshops. And I'm like, I've finished the first workshop, which was going to be a two-day workshop, and so I get that done. And so, that next week, I'm getting close to finished on the forms workshop, and then I start the workshops. And that was when I started to realize, oh, shoot, I am in huge trouble because I have to not only deliver two workshops a week, so that's two days a week that I'm not able to work on the workshops, really. And then also develop the material as I go, which I don't normally do this at all because I just don't like stressing myself out so much. But, like, I'd had this timeline put together, and I'm like, I need to ship this by October. For about five weeks, I worked 80 to 100 hours a week, maybe more, in a row to get those workshops created [laughs]. And I do not recommend this, and I will never do it again. I can tell you this now. I didn't tell anybody at the time because I was worried that people would think, well, geez, is that the type of product you create, like, you're just rushing through this stuff? But I can tell you this safely now because the results speak for themselves. Like, these people loved this stuff. They ate it up. It was so good. I won't do this again. It's not something that I typically do. But it worked. And, like, I put in a crazy amount of work to make this work. People loved it. And yeah, I'm really, really happy with that. The next step, though, so it was eight days' worth of workshops in four weeks. And I realized, as I almost always realize when I'm presenting workshops, that, like, oh my gosh, I have way more material than I have time for. So, by the end of it, when I was all done, I'm pretty sure we've got around 16 days' worth of workshop material, so twice as much as I thought, which is; honestly, I shouldn't be surprised because this is always how it works. So, I've got 16 days worth of workshops to record starting in August that needed to get all recorded six weeks before the launch date, which was my birthday. So, I have until, like, the first part of September to get all this stuff recorded. That is a lot to get recorded, but I managed to do that. So, in about four weeks, I recorded 450 videos. Like, anybody go through this material, and you'll be blown away that I was able to do this. So, I'm patting myself on the back, I know. I probably sound super cocky, but I nailed it. And it is so good. I can credit a lot of my ability to record and get those videos produced, first, to the fact that I wasn't editing the videos. I would export the videos, and an editor would take care of editing it for me. And then, secondly, that I've done this for so long. I've just been creating workshops for a long time. I'm just really practiced at teaching while I'm typing and talking and everything. And then, also, just the level of preparation that I put into this workshop material. It was just a very well-oiled machine by this point. So, it ended up working out super-duper well. So, I get the videos done. I'm recording a bunch of expert interviews with 25 people during the month of September. Then we launched on my birthday, October 18th. And it went superduper well. WILL: Wow. That's a lot of video recording and a lot of stuff you have to do. I feel like that's most parents when they're trying to meet a deadline for a kid that you don't know when they're coming. It's like, oh, I got to do this. I got to do that before the baby comes. So, you did it. You were successful with that [laughter]. KENT: Yeah, thank you. WILL: Wow, who is this course for? KENT: The course is for anybody who wants to learn how to build web applications the way I do. I like to focus my building of web applications on the primitives of the web platform as much as possible while acknowledging the practicality of using a framework. If you want to be able to ship really awesome user experiences on the web platform, regardless of whether you're using the same tools I am, like, if you're not using Prisma, if you're not using Tailwind, if you're not using Remix, you're still going to walk away from this with a lot of really, really practical material. Because I don't really focus on the tools as much as I do on the patterns and the practical application of security practices and various things of that nature. So, anybody who wants to be really good at the web will benefit a lot from Epic Web. WILL: Okay. And I'll put this in the show notes, but they can find it at epicweb.dev? KENT: Mm-hmm. WILL: Perfect. Okay. Is there anything else that you want to talk about around epicweb.dev? KENT: I'll just reiterate that, like, your learning experience on epicweb.dev will be different from anything you've ever seen before. It will be a little bit similar to Epic React if you've done that before. But even still, the new workshop app is unreal, and people are loving it. One feature that I really love about it is we try to make it so that you don't feel like you're learning alone because we learn better when we're learning together, and we feel like we're not alone. So, we have a presence feature on Epic Web. So, when you're working through the workshops, you can see all the other people that are currently working on the workshops as well. Of course, you can opt out of this if you don't want your face on there, but, like, it's just, like, a little pile of faces of people who are working on it. And it says where they're working right now. And it's just really, really cool to be able to have that camaraderie. So, it's really geared toward retention. So, this is nothing like a Udemy course that is, like, a 45-hour thing that you just sit and watch. This is very hands-on. You will remember this stuff, and you will become a better developer when you're done. WILL: Wow, wow. I love that I have not gotten the course, but I'm definitely looking into it. You've talked me into it. I'm going to go and try to try it out. So yes. KENT: Cool. WILL: Well, I want to close out on a couple of things that I saw. And it was just interesting hearing your story. Like, early on, you were talking about your purpose and kind of the things that you love. One thing that I picked up on is, like, you're saying that you love audio and video programming and teaching. It's amazing that that's essentially what you're doing now. KENT: [laughs] WILL: Like, that's what you're in right now. You're in teaching with audio and video, and you're teaching programming. KENT: Hmm. Yeah, it is kind of funny how it, like, comes full circle. WILL: Yeah, so I really love that. And then I have this thing, whenever I think something, especially positive, I try to tell people. I hate to not share what I'm thinking, especially when it's positive because I feel like if it's negative, we just do it so freely, but we never do the positive. So, I think, for you, I want to just tell you you had a couple of things you were saying, like your purpose when writing software is the people. You want to teach people how to write awesome software to make the world a better place, and I just want you to know I know, for me, you've done that. You've helped me so much on my journey of coding and development. And I just really appreciate you and what you've done for the space. And I just want to say thank you. KENT: Aw, Will, thank you. That does mean a lot to me. So, I really appreciate you saying that. WILL: Yeah, awesome. Well, it was a great conversation. I loved learning more about you and just everything you shared. So, thank you for being a part of the podcast. KENT: Thank you. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guest: Kent C. Dodds.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? 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If you missed the first episode with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipants and founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito of Goodz, you can go here first to catch up! Startup founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito are participating in thoughtbot's eight-week incubator program. Mike, with a background in the music industry, and Chris, experienced in physical computing and exhibit development, are collaborating on a startup that creates physical objects linked to digital content, primarily in music. Their goal is to enhance the connection between tangible and digital experiences, starting with a product that resembles a mixtape, using NFC technology for easy access to digital playlists. This project is unique within the thoughtbot incubator as it's the first pure consumer product and involves both physical and digital elements. The team is engaged in user interviews and market validation, with the aim of launching a physical product with a digital backend. They are exploring various marketing strategies for the product and are in the process of building its technical backend. Transcript: LINDSEY: All right. I'm going to kick us off here. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We're doing our first update with two founders that are now going through the Startup incubator at thoughtbot. thoughtbot, if you're not familiar, product design and development consultancy. We'll help you on your product and make your team a success. One of the very fun ways we do that is through the startup thoughtbot incubator, which is an eight-week program. So, with us today, I myself am Lindsey Christensen, marketing for thoughtbot. We also have Jordyn Bonds, who is our Director of Product Strategy and runs the thoughtbot incubator. And then, as I mentioned, we've got two new founders who are going to tell us a little bit about themselves and what they're working on. Mike Rosenthal, let's kick off with you. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe your background and what brings you to present day? MIKE: Sure. First of, thanks for having us. It's been a lot of fun doing this over the last [inaudible 01:03]; it's only two weeks, two and a half weeks, something like that. It feels like a lot more. I come from a music industry background, so worked in sort of marketing and strategy for artists for a long time; worked with a band called OK Go back, sort of starting in 2009 or so. I did a lot of early kind of viral music video stuff. And we were sort of early to the idea of sort of leveraging fan engagement and revenue, honestly, kind of beyond sort of just selling their music and touring, so sort of exploring other ways that artists can make money and connect with their fans and was with those guys for five years. And then, I went on and worked at an artist management company in Brooklyn called Mick Management and ran the marketing department there, so doing similar type of work but for a roster of 2025 major label bands. And so, really got to see fan engagement on all different levels, from really large bands down to baby bands who were just getting started. And then, yeah, started my first startup in 2018, so doing sort of fan engagement work, and NFTs, and blockchain-type stuff working with bands, but then also sports and entertainment properties. Yeah, that kind of brings me here. So, always been sort of on the music side of things, which ties into a lot of what Chris and I are working on now, but more generally, sort of fan engagement and how to, you know, drive revenue and engagement for artists and deliver value for fans. LINDSEY: Very interesting. All right, Chris, going to head over to you. Chris Cerrito, can you tell us a bit about your background? And it sounds like yours and Mike's paths; this isn't the first time you've crossed. CHRIS: No. Mike and I have been working together since 2007, I believe. Yeah, that's a great place to start. I've always been kind of a maker and a tinkerer, always been interested in art materials, how things are put together. And that kind of culminated at grad school, where Mike and I met at NYU, where we both studied physical computing and human-computer interaction, making weird things that kind of changed the way that people interact and play with technology in their day-to-day lives. I think the first project he and I worked on together was a solar robotic band that we played with light in front of a bunch of people. It was very wonderful and confusing at the same time. After grad school, I was lucky enough to become a resident artist and then an exhibit developer at a museum in San Francisco called the Exploratorium, which is a museum of science, art, and human perception. I spent ten years there working on exhibits teaching people things ranging from, let's see, I built a dueling water fountain to teach visitors and users about the prisoner's dilemma. I built a photo booth that used computer vision to teach people about the microbiome that lives on their face, like, just all kinds of weird things like that that fuse the digital and the physical worlds. I loved my time there. And then kind of COVID hit and I realized that everything I had been working on for ten years was locked up in a museum that I no longer had access to. And it really gave me a desire to kind of bring my ideas into the physical world. I wanted to make things that people interact with and use in their lives on a day-to-day basis. And I would say that's really what brought me here to this point. LINDSEY: Very cool. Very interesting backgrounds, in my opinion. What is the new idea? What is the thing that you're bringing into the incubator? Mike, I'll start with you. Tell us a bit about what you're working on. MIKE: Chris and I are working on physical objects that connect to digital content is sort of the broadest way that I could describe it. I think, you know, as Chris kind of mentioned, you know, we've both been working on sort of physical things that have interactivity for a lot of our careers. I think we both come from an era of a lot more physical objects in your life, whether that's, you know, VHS cassettes at your parent's house growing up, or records and tape cassettes, and just sort of physical things that remind you of the things that you love. And I think that, you know, cell phones are great, and the sort of the smartphone era is amazing and having, you know, every single song, and movie, and television show and podcasts, et cetera, in a black box in my pocket is great. But I think we've sort of gotten to a point where it's more of an organizational problem now than anything else. And we sort of forget the actual things that we love in this world. And so, we're working on basically making physical objects to tie to digital content, and we're starting with music. And that's what we've been working on at thoughtbot is sort of how we can create physical things that basically you can tap, and that will take you to streaming content. One of the first things we're working on literally looks like sort of a little mixtape on a piece of wood, and you can just load that up with any sort of playlist that you might have on Spotify, or Apple Music, or YouTube, or whatever, and tap it, and it will take you there. And so, it's just sort of that idea of like, oh, we used to be able to sort of flip through a friend's music collection and judge them ruthlessly, or become even better friends with them based on kind of what you saw there. And we think that the time is ripe for, I don't know, a blend of that nostalgia with actual sort of, like, real-world utility that people could be into this right now. Chris, what am I missing there? CHRIS: I'd say just to expand on that a little bit, it's, you know, we spend so much time in the digital world, but we still exist in the physical. And a lot of the things, like, you might spend a really long time editing a photo for your parents or making a playlist for a friend, and there's, like, a value there that might not translate because it's digital. It's ephemeral. And I think tying these digital assets to a physical thing makes them special. It gives them, like, a permanent place in your life, something to respect, to hold on to, and maybe even pass down at some point. LINDSEY: Yeah, and I think before we logged on, we actually had Jordyn and Mike grabbing cassette tapes from the room there and to show us -- MIKE: [inaudible 06:49] LINDSEY: What [laughs] was some of their collection and to prove some of the power of these physical –- MIKE: Nothing, like, just old mixtapes. LINDSEY: Mementos. MIKE: Yeah. We were just talking about this on our sync with the thoughtbot crew. They're, like, there's sort of two levels of nostalgia. There's nostalgia for people like us who, yeah, [crosstalk 07:09] mixtapes, right? For people who actually grew up with this stuff and still have it lying around or don't but, like, look at something like that that gives you, like, instant flashbacks, right? You're like, oh my God, I remember scrolling on that little j-card or, like, getting a mixtape for my first, you know, boyfriend or girlfriend, and having it just mean everything. So, there's people for whom that was a thing. And there's, you know, generations of people for whom that is, like, their only connection to that is, you know, Stranger Things or, like, you know, the mixtape exists in pop culture as a reference. So, there's still, like, a very strong attachment there, but it's not a personal one, right? It's a cultural one. But I think everybody has that connection. So, that's kind of why we're starting with the mixtape, just because I think everyone can kind of relate to that in some way. LINDSEY: Yeah, no, yeah. When I hear mixtape, it goes immediately to crushes. You make a mixtape for your crush. CHRIS: Exactly. LINDSEY: It's a huge, powerful market, powerful. MIKE: Oh my God, so powerful. I mean, yeah, I don't know anybody -- LINDSEY: What's more motivating? MIKE: [laughs] Yeah, exactly. CHRIS: Or even just I have a really good friend who I don't get to see as often as I'd like. And he and I are constantly sending each other, you know, Spotify links and text messages. And it's great. I love that interaction. But at the same time, you know, I might forget to add that to a playlist, and then it's kind of lost. If I had taken the time to make something and send it to him physically or vice versa, it just becomes so much more special and so much more real. MIKE: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I first made these...I mean, we can go to this origin if we want. But, like, I literally just went on moo.com, right? The business card company. And they let you upload, you know, 50 different images, and they'll send you all of those as business cards. And so, I literally went on and just made business cards of all the album covers of, like, albums that I loved growing up, right? And their cheapest is this little piece of cardboard. But I had 50 of these, and I'd put them all out on my coffee table, just as something I wanted to have around. And people kept coming, you know, friends would come over, and you would just have these conversations that I haven't had in 10 or 15 years, right? Because no one's going to come to my house and pick up my phone and look at my Spotify collection. But if these things are all just sitting out, they're like, "Oh shit, you're into that? Like, I haven't thought about that album in 15 years." Or like, "Oh, I didn't know you were into that. I'm, like, a crazy super fan of that artist as well." And all of a sudden, we're having these conversations that we just weren't having. Yeah, there's something there where it's all been nostalgia coupled with the kind of prompting of conversation and connection that we've kind of lost, I think. CHRIS: And I think just to clarify a little bit on what Mike's saying, is, you know, this mixtape will be our first product launch, and then we're hoping to move into collectibles for artists and labels. So, shortly after we launch this tape, we're hoping to launch some kind of pilot with a label where you will be able to buy a version of this for your favorite music artist at a merch table in a concert, possibly online. Our dream is to have these sitting there on the table with T-shirts, and records, and other things that artists sell so you can express for the artists that you love. This is a way of expressing your fandom. LINDSEY: Jordyn, heading over to you, this feels like maybe the first consumer product that has gone through the incubator, would you say? Or how do you think about it? JORDYN: Yeah, if you're a consumer -- LINDSEY: Or is it different than other types of products? JORDYN: Yeah, the first incubator project we did with Senga was, I think, what you would call prosumer. So, it was sort of a consumer thing but directed at folks who had kind of freelancing in sort of a business context. It's got a lot of dynamics of the consumer. But this one, for sure, is the first pure consumer play. Though now that I'm thinking about it, you know, AvidFirst had some consumer elements to it, but it was, you know, it was, like, more complex tech [laughs] [inaudible 10:46] totally different thing -- LINDSEY: But definitely the first of the physical, physical [inaudible 10:52] JORDYN: Oh, sure, the first of the physical thing. Right. Absolutely. LINDSEY: Does that change any of, like, the approach of the programming, or it's kind of -- JORDYN: I mean, no, not fundamentally, though it does add this layer of operations that you don't have with a pure software play. So, we have to be, there is a thing that needs to get shipped to people in the world, and that takes timelines, and it takes -- LINDSEY: Supply chain. JORDYN: Yeah, exactly. And Chris is doing most of that stuff. I don't want to, you know, this is not, like, the main focus of our team necessarily, but it intersects, right? So, this isn't the first one of these types of products I've worked on personally in my career. But there's something, like, really, for me, very fulfilling about, like, there's software. There's a big component of software. There's also this physical object that needs to exist in the world. And partly, what's so compelling about Goodz is that it gives you the promise of a physical, like, the sort of good aspects of a physical product, a thing you can hold in your hand and look at and really connect with in that physical way. But it has this dynamic digital, like, essential quality as well. So, it's very compelling as a product because it sort of marries the things that we like about both the physical world and the digital world, which is partly why the team was really excited about working on it [laughs]. LINDSEY: Well, that was going to be my next question is, you know, what stood out to you about the Goodz application for the incubator and the interview process that made you and the team feel like this was going to be a great project to work on? JORDYN: Yeah. So, I think just the team really resonated with the sort of idea in general, and it seemed fun. There was, like, it's a very positive thing, right? It isn't so much about solving problems and pain points. And, sometimes the, you know, when you're very focused on solving problems, it can feel a little doomy because you actually have to, like, immerse yourself in the problems of the people that you're making software for. And sometimes, you start to feel like the world is just full of problems. What Goodz is doing is sort of it is solving a problem in a sense, but not in that kind of way. It's really, like, a fun upside kind of thing, which I think a lot of the folks on the team were very excited about. But, like, the software component, actually, is very interesting to us from a technological standpoint as well. There's a lot of opportunity here to do interesting things on the backend with an object that's essentially functioning as a bookmark out in the world. What all can you do with that? There's something super compelling and technically interesting about it. And I think, also, the team was just sort of excited by Chris and Mike, you know, the energy and the kind of background they were bringing to the table was also super interesting. And then, above all else, what I say every time you ask me this question, which is stage fit, y'all, good stage fit. They're right at the beginning. They haven't built the product yet [laughs]. Gotta say it. It's a good stage fit. They know who they're building for broadly but not super specifically. Got a good vision but, like, haven't made that first step with the software. Perfect stage fit for us [laughs]. LINDSEY: Great. So, Chris, we were talking a bit before about how you two have been collaborators in the past, worked on business ideas before. Why bring this idea into the thoughtbot incubator? What are you hoping to, you know, achieve? CHRIS: One of the main reasons why we wanted to bring this into the incubator was just for support, momentum, and then, also, I would say validation for our idea. I mean, we came to the incubator with a very, yeah, I would say it was a fairly developed idea that needed to be proved, and we, quite frankly, needed help with that. You know, Mike and I have our own expertises, but we don't know how to do everything. We're more than willing to jump in where we need to go. But having people with expertise to work with has proven to be incredibly helpful and just having kind of fresh faces to bat ideas around with after he and I have been staring at each other for months now on Zoom calls and meetings. And just, you know, being able to talk about these ideas with fresh faces and new people and get new perspectives has been so very, very helpful. I think something that's also great from the momentum standpoint is that because there's a time limit to this experience, we've got the time that we have with you guys, and we've been able to set goals that I think are very achievable for things we want to occur in the next couple of months, and it feels like we're going to get there. And I think by the end of this, I mean, our hope, and I think we're on track, is to have a functioning physical product that we're going to offer to consumers with a digital backend to support it, which is, in my mind, amazing. That'll totally validate this idea and prove if we have something or not. LINDSEY: I was going to ask if you're open to sharing what those goals specifically are. Is that it? Is it that by the end, you have -- MIKE: Is that it? Lindsey, that's a lot. [laughter] CHRIS: It's a lot. I mean, yeah. I mean, we're going to have a physical object in the world that you can buy via an e-commerce site -- JORDYN: Sounds like we need Lindsey on the team if Lindsey feels like this is so achievable. [laughter] CHRIS: Yeah, yeah. Lindsey...yeah. We're in the beginning [crosstalk 15:47] LINDSEY: I meant, is that the goal? CHRIS: That is the goal. LINDSEY: Is that all? CHRIS: I was going to –- LINDSEY: Is that all you got? CHRIS: Mike, do you agree? MIKE: Yeah. Is that the goal? Yes, that is the goal. I mean, you know, when we sat down with the thoughtbot team kind of week one, you know, they're sort of like, "All right, let's define kind of the experiment." So, we refer to them as experiments, which I think is helpful because, like, what are the experiments that we want to be doing during our time here? And, you know, we talked about it a lot. And yeah, I think it's, you know, having a physical product out in the world, having a website in which to sell it. But also, it's really, like Chris was saying, it's like, it's market validation, and just making sure we actually have something that people want. It's like, you know, running a startup takes so long and, like [laughs], you know, you'll do it for so many years. It's like bands when people say, like, "Oh, that's an overnight sensation." It's like, you know, that band has been slogging it out in tiny, little venues for four years before you ever heard of them. It's like, that's what so much of the startup world feels like to me, too. It's like, "Oh, you're just getting started as a startup?" It's like, "Well, we've been working on this forever." And I know how long this can take. And so, I think we want to learn as early as possible, like, is this something people actually want? Because if they don't, like, we'll just go do something else. I don't want to spend years making something that people don't want. So, I think the biggest goal, for me, is just validation, and then that is sort of how we get there is like, okay, how do we validate this? Cool. Let's identify some, you know, assumptions of personas that we think are people who do actually want this and then try to go sell it to them. And all the implications from that are, okay, well, you need a website where somebody can buy it. You need a physical product that somebody can actually buy. So, all those things sort of come out of that, but, for me, it's like, proving that assumption, is this thing real? Do people actually want this? And everything else is like, okay, how do we prove that? LINDSEY: Jordyn, what does that look like in these first few weeks here? User interviews, I assume, how are the user interviews going? JORDYN: Always. Always. So, you know, we kick it off by just, like, doing the exercise where we list everybody who might want this. And the team, you know, it's a fun product. Everybody brought their own assumptions and ideas to the table on that. You know, we had a lot of different scenarios we were imagining. It's super fun getting that stuff out of people's heads, just, like, what are we all thinking? And then, you know, we get to negotiate, like, okay...I always encourage everyone to think, like, if everyone else on the team was on the moon, you had to make a decision about a market segment to pick; which one would you pick? And then we kind of argue about it in a productive way. It really helps us get at, like, what are the dynamics that we think matter upfront? And then we pick one, or, in this case, we have a few. We have a handful. And we're running interview projects where we just recruit people to talk about people that meet this persona, talk about a specific problem. We're in the middle of that right now. And it's fun, fantastic. These conversations are super interesting. We're validating a lot of the things that Mike and Chris, you know, walked into this with, but we're learning a bunch of new things as well. And, like, really, part of the aim there is to validate that there's a hole in the market that we might fill but also to hear the language people are using to describe this stuff. So, when people talk about buying music, merch, you know, making playlists, et cetera, like, what language do they use to talk about that? So that we make sure we're speaking the language that our customer uses to describe this stuff. And we're, you know, we're right in the pocket of doing that, learning stuff all the time. And it helps us kind of hone the messaging. It helps us know where to go talk to people about it, how to talk about it, but it's, you know, it all kind of fits together. And it's just this, really...the early stages. It's just a bunch of us in a room, a virtual room, in this case, sort of, like, tossing ideas around. But out of it crystallizes this sense of alignment about who this is for, how to talk to them about it, and with a goal. And, you know, Mike and Chris walked in with the exact right mindset about this, which is, yes, it's experiments. We need to validate it. Let's make sure there's a there-there. If there's a there-there, let's figure out where it is [laughs], like, all those things. And we're running these experiments, and it was really [inaudible 19:36]. We got down to business quite quickly here. It was really great. LINDSEY: Like you said, it's not necessarily a problem or, you know, the typical framing of a problem. How do you start those user interview questions around this? Do you feel a gap between the physical and the digital sound? [laughter] JORDYN: No, no. LINDSEY: It's maybe not it [laughs]. JORDYN: Yeah, no. Well, I can tell you what our startup questions are. One of them is, tell me about the last time you bought music merch. Go for it, Lindsey. Tell us. LINDSEY: The last time I bought music merch I went to a Tegan and Sara concert a few weeks ago, and I bought a T-shirt. JORDYN: Tell me about buying that T-shirt. Why'd you buy it? LINDSEY: Because I wanted to remember the show and my time with my friends, and I wanted to support the artists. I know that buying merch is the best way to support your favorite touring artists. JORDYN: So, it's just, you know, we could spend the rest of this time talking [laughter] [crosstalk 20:34], and it would be awesome. So, it's really a lot of things like that. LINDSEY: Gotcha. JORDYN: You don't ask, "What problem are you trying to solve by buying this t-shirt?" Right? Like, that's not, you know, but we ask you to tell us a bunch of stories about when you did this recently. You know, and if you make playlists for friends, you know, that's a different persona. But we would have asked, you know, like, "Tell me about the last playlist you made. You know, who did you share it with? You know, what happened after that? What happened after that? What happened after that?" It's a lot of questions like that. And there's just nothing better. People love to tell you what's going on with them. And it's great [laughs]. LINDSEY: Yeah. As you all have been doing these interviews, Mike and Chris, have you been surprised by anything? Any interesting insights that you're seeing already? CHRIS: I mean, I haven't done really much in the way of user interviews in the past. This is a really new experience for me. And then we're, obviously, not on the calls because that would be weird and probably intimidating for people. But we're getting lots of highlights from folks who are doing them, you know, in our daily sync. And I'm surprised at how many, like, really intense, like, playlist nerds we have found even just in, like, the few people we've talked to, like, in the best possible way. Like, people who are like, "I make playlists all the time." Like, you're talking about, like, a vinyl fan or, like, a...Jordyn, what's the story? It's, like, the guy who there was so much out-of-print vinyl that he started a vinyl label just to get the albums in vinyl. [crosstalk 21:56] JORDYN: Yeah. There were a bunch of releases that he feels really passionately about that were never released on vinyl that he knew would never be released on vinyl. And so, he started a vinyl record label. And we just found this guy [laughter]. CHRIS: Is that indicative that that's, like, an entire persona we're going to, like, target? Absolutely not. But it's just, like, it's amazing that even just in the few user interviews we've done, that we've found so many very passionate people. And it's sent me down, like, a TikTok rabbit hole of, like, TikTok, like, music nerd influencer-type folks who are posting playlists. And they, like, hundreds of thousands of likes on these videos that are literally just, like, screen with text on it that you're supposed to, like, pause the video [laughs] and, like, look at, like, the songs that they're recommending. And it's like, who does that? And it was like, these people do that. And it's like, so there are...it's been very encouraging to me, actually. I was worried that we were going to find not as much passion as we had suspected, and I think the opposite has proven to be true. So, it's exciting. CHRIS: Yeah, I completely agree with Mike. It's been so encouraging. I think, for me, what we're doing is an idea that I'm very excited about and have been very excited about for a long time. But hearing the responses that we're getting makes me confident in the idea, too. That's great. I mean, I think that is everything that a founder needs, you know, is excitement and confidence. MIKE: Well, and just the whole user interview experience has, like, made a lot of my other conversations sort of I've tried to frame parts of them as user interviews because I'm talking to a lot of, like, label folks now, and artists, merch people. And, you know, I ended up just sort of, like, asking them, I mean, yes, trying to explain the product and work on kind of partnership stuff, but a lot of it is really just geeking out with them. And just, like, hearing their thoughts about, like, what they love about merch because these are people that clearly think about this stuff all the time. So, it's definitely kind of, like, tuned my other conversations into trying to get unbiased feedback. LINDSEY: Yeah. Everything is a little user interview now. MIKE: Yeah, exactly. LINDSEY: Get that angle in there. All right, so some early validation and excitement. That's really cool to hear. Any challenges or, you know, other kinds of learnings early on? Anything that's been invalidated? MIKE: I don't know that we're there yet. [inaudible 24:02] Chris, I don't know. I'm happy to find that some things are invalidated, but I don't really feel...you know, some of the personas that we decided or maybe just one of the personas we decided to pursue, I think we're having a hard time having those user interviews kind of really bear fruit, but that's helpful, too, actually. I mean, it's like, okay, well, maybe that's not a group that we target. JORDYN: Yeah. It's about, like [inaudible 24:24]. I encourage folks not to think about this like a 'no, not that,' and instead think of it as like a 'not yet.' And that's, I think, the dynamic here with a couple of the personas we were interested in. It's just been turned into kind of, like, a not yet for reasons that we very quickly figured out, but we'll get there. It's just a matter of figuring out we had some other personas take precedence because they're more sort of red, hot in a way, right? It's just easier to get in contact with these people, or it's, like, clear what they're going for or what they need from the market. So, you know, we have this whole list, and it was not clear at first who was going to kind of stand out. But we've kind of found some focus there, which means, invariably, that there's things that are falling out of the frame for now, and you're kind of de-prioritizing them. But it really is, like, a we'll get to that [laughs]. We'll eventually get to that. LINDSEY: Yeah. And part of the process, who's going to rise to the top right now? JORDYN: Yeah, exactly. LINDSEY: Do you have anything you can show and tell with us today or not yet? MIKE: So, Chris has been hard at work on all the physical side of this stuff and going back and forth with our manufacturing partner and all that good stuff. But we have a final version of the mixtape product. LINDSEY: For when this gets pulled into the podcast, Mike's showing us a physical card. CHRIS: It's a small card, and we call them Goodz. And it's printed on three-millimeter plywood using a UV printing process, super durable. And this is something you can put in your pocket. You're not going to wreck it. I think you could actually (Don't quote me on this.), but I think you can even, like, put it through a washing machine, and it would be fine. Embedded in this card is a chip that can be read by your phone, and that's pretty much what we're working with. MIKE: Yeah, so the idea is you just sort of tap this, and it'll take you to a streaming version of a playlist. And then Chris has also been making these adorable crates. And [crosstalk 26:10] LINDSEY: The little crates I love. MIKE: And we actually have some wooden ones, too, in the testing that's [crosstalk 26:15] LINDSEY: And then the mixtapes get stored in the little crates [crosstalk 26:19] MIKE: Yeah. So, you could have -- LINDSEY: Throw it on your desk. CHRIS: Each crate can hold about, I think, 15 of these things. What's really cool about this product on the physical side is we are using a tried-and-true technology, which is NFC chips. These are things that make Apple Pay work, make Google Pay work. They are in your E-ZPass when you drive through a toll booth. This is stuff that's been around for years. So, we're just kind of leveraging this technology that's been around for so long in a new way. MIKE: Yeah, I think it's similar to kind of the evolution of QR codes, right? It's like they were sort of around forever, and then it was, like, COVID and restaurant menus kind of kicked those into mainstream. Like, NFC has been around for a long time. It's very tried and true. It's affordable. But I want to say Apple only turned it on by default, like, the NFC reader in the iPhone in the last, like, 18 to 24 months, right? Like, it started...like, it's been around for a while, but they're sort of slowly kind of...and now you just sort of see it everywhere. People are using it on the subways in New York to scan for tickets or for accessing stuff. I was also just showing Chris has been prototyping with the ability to sort of keep these on a key ring. So, we have, like, a little chain hole on them. It is [inaudible 27:22] to sort of have this on your backpack or, you know, on a key ring, or something like that. And friends could kind of, like, come up to you and just, like, scan one that looks interesting. CHRIS: And yeah, something that's awesome about this is you don't need an app. You don't need to download anything. As long as your NFC reader is on when you scan this, it will bring you to the music that it's linked to, which I think is awesome. So, I mean, my dream is to have these, like, hanging off of people's backpacks so I can, like, scan them in the subway or, you know, it's such, like, an easy thing to do. And it requires so little technical time on the user's end to be able to do it. LINDSEY: Oh, we got a question here. "So, Moo used to offer NFC cards. What made you decide to do the thicker plywood model?" CHRIS: Durability is really what it comes down to. We wanted something that felt like an object that you can have and treasure. Like, these have weight, you know, these feel like something, not just a piece of paper. This is something that you can have and [inaudible 28:22] your desk, and it's not going to fade in the sunlight. It's not going to disintegrate over time. This is something that's going to last. MIKE: Yeah, the cards would definitely, like, as I would sort of carry them around and show them to people and stuff, the cards would start, you know, breaking. It's like having a business card in your pocket, right? Eventually, it's going to kind of wear out. And plus, we had, like, the stickers were visible on the back of them. And we were, like, having the sticker just completely disappear inside the wood it just feels a little bit more like magic. LINDSEY: Well, thanks for demoing there. I put you on the spot a little bit. But they are...I had seen them in the Slack, and they're very cool [laughs]. So, I had to ask if we could show them off a bit. MIKE: Of course. CHRIS: I think another thing to think about, too, is we've been talking a lot about the user experience. But if and when we get to the point of making these for artists, artists will be able to collect so much data off of the way that people buy and collect and use these things over time, which is something that we're really, really excited about. And also, you know, we're working on a way to make the link in the object updatable over time. So, artists will be able to change what a card points do to inform their users about the latest and greatest thing. LINDSEY: Very cool. Jordyn, what's next on the programming agenda for Chris and Mike? JORDYN: It's really sort of we're in this, like, iterative cycle. So, we're talking to folks. We're working on the website. The conversations we're having with people are informing how we're framing this first experiment with the mixtape, how we're marketing it, who we're marketing it to. I think next up is probably a Google Ad experiment to really see if we can piggyback on some stuff or at least figure out a new consumer product. It's so tough, right? It's also not a thing people are searching for. So, we have to come up with some experiments for how we get people to that website [laughs]. So, you know, Google Ads funnels is just something you kind of have to do because it's very interesting to figure out what people are responding to, what people are searching for. But we're going to have a bunch of other experiments as well and non-experiments. Outbound experiments: can we go to people? Can we get listed in a gift-buying guide for the holidays? Or, like, we don't know. There's a bunch of experiments we need to do around that, which is really just this iteration. We won't stop talking to users but, you know, everything we're hearing from them will inform where we go and how we talk to the folks in those places where we end up. And really, it's just about starting...once this is up and, you know, there's, like, an orderable thing, there's, like, a whole data cycle where we start to learn from the stuff we're testing; we actually have some real data for it, and we can start to tweak, iterate and change our strategy. But the bigger thing, also, is this bigger platform. So, the next thing really, the big next thing, is to sort of start to scope and create an architecture idea. What's it going to take to build the actual backend thing? And it's the thing that thoughtbot really [laughs] excels at, which is software. So, you know, that's the big next kind of project. Once the mixtape experiment is sort of out and in flight and we're getting data, we really need to turn our attention to the technical backend. LINDSEY: Exciting. Another comment/question from Jeff, who maybe needs a user interview. "Love the crate more than the actual albums. Maybe offer collections of artists." MIKE: Yeah, that's the plan. CHRIS: Yeah, definitely. It's a good idea. Yeah, it's, I mean, and labels get to, especially, like, small indie labels get really excited about doing, like, crates worth of collections of different artists or, like, you know, digging through their back catalog, their subscription services. There's a lot of different angles for sure about that idea. LINDSEY: [inaudible 31:55] Chris and Mike, going into this next section of the programming, for anyone watching right now, or watching the recording, or listening to the recording, any action items from them? You know, are you looking for any user interviews or have any survey or any destinations you'd like to send people yet? CHRIS: Not quite yet, but soon, I would say. Well -- MIKE: I mean, [inaudible 32:19] plug the website, I mean, you know, I think we've got, like, an email to sign up from there, right? The URL is getthegoodz.com and I [crosstalk 32:27] LINDSEY: Goodz with a Z. MIKE: Goodz with a Z. CHRIS: With Z. MIKE: So yeah, if you want to go there, you can sign up. I think there's an email signup on there to learn more. LINDSEY: Perfect. All right. getthegoodz.com email sign up. To stay up to date on Goodz and the incubator, you can follow along on the thoughtbot blog. You know, as always, send us any questions you might have, and we're happy to get to those. But otherwise, thanks for listening. And thank you all — Jordyn, Chris, and Mike. Thanks so much for joining today and sharing and being open about your stories so far. MIKE: Thank you. CHRIS: Yeah, thank you, Lindsey. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? 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