The Carbon Curve

Episode 12 of The Carbon Curve is with Adrian Corless, CEO and CTO of CarbonCapture Inc.This episode is sponsored by Carbonfuture.Carbonfuture is an end-to-end platform for companies who want to participate in removing carbon from the atmosphere. Unlike conventional marketplaces, Carbonfuture’s monitoring, reporting, and verification platform solves carbon credit uncertainty for buyers like Microsoft and SwissRe while Carbonfuture’s support helps scale the world’s most promising carbon removal ventures for real climate impact.About this episode:In early September, direct air capture (DAC) company CarbonCapture announced plans to build a massive new DAC facility in Wyoming. CarbonCapture and its storage partner expect this project to permanently remove five million tons of CO2 from the atmosphere every year by 2030. It would also be the first DAC deployment to use Class VI wells for permanent CO2 storage.A few things stood out to me about this announcement. First, the scale. This is the largest DAC facility ever announced. I wanted to dig deeper on the company’s proposed modular approach to build up to its massive 5 million ton per year target capacity by 2030. Second, the announcement specifically referenced the Inflation Reduction Act. I wanted to learn more about how policy was a catalyst in this company’s major decision to move forward with a project of this size. And finally, I was curious about CarbonCapture’s partnerships with The State of Wyoming and Frontier Carbon Solutions. I wanted to hear more about how strategic partnerships translate into on the ground deployments of new carbon removal (or CDR) projects.So to answer these questions, I speak to CarbonCapture’s CEO and CTO about what it’s actually going to take, between now and 2030, from technology, policy, partnerships, and carbon markets to realize their ambitious plan - and what comes next.In this episode, Na’im and Adrian discuss:* CarbonCapture’s origin story* What make’s CarbonCapture unique and scalable, including its modular approach, open systems architecture, and project deployment model (and what about the company’s solution is still being worked out)* Roll-out plans for Project Bison, the company’s 5 million ton per year DAC plant in Wyoming and its partnership with Frontier Carbon Solutions* The challenges and opportunities with Class VI wells for CO2 storage, and Adrian’s views on Enhanced Oil Recovery (EOR)* What made Wyoming an attractive location for Project Bison, what recent policies helped spur this project launch, and how government procurement can be an important bridge to scaling up CDR* Recent steps taken that could make Canada an attractive destination for DAC deployment, and how CarbonCapture envisions expanding beyond North America* How the Inflation Reduction Act changed the economics of using DAC-sourced CO2 in the production of sustainable aviation fuelsRelevant links:* CarbonCapture’s website* CarbonCapture’s Project Bison announcement* The world’s largest carbon removal project yet is headed for Wyoming (The Verge)* Storage partner Frontier Carbon Solutions* My recent report on decarbonizing aviation with Clean Air Task Force, which includes a discussion on the potential role for DACAbout Adrian Corless:Adrian has spent more than 25 years developing and commercializing products in the cleantech industry. From 2013 to 2018, he was the CEO of Carbon Engineering, where he successfully developed the company into a recognized global leader in CO2 direct air capture, piloting industrial scale systems in under two years. In addition, Adrian has spent 15+ years commercializing industrial hydrogen, fuel cell, and pump technologies, serving as CEO of Rotoliptic Technologies, CTO of Plug Power, and CTO of Cellex Power Products. He holds a Master's of Science degree from the University of Victoria, BC Canada with specialization in Energy Systems, Cryogenics, and LNG.Na’im Merchant, Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Curve, is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge of removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere. Every week, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

Episode 11 of The Carbon Curve is with Celina Scott-Buechler, Senior Resident Fellow of Climate Innovation at Data for Progress (DFP).This episode is sponsored by Carbonfuture.Carbonfuture is an end-to-end platform for companies who want to participate in removing carbon from the atmosphere. Unlike conventional marketplaces, Carbonfuture’s monitoring, reporting, and verification platform solves carbon credit uncertainty for buyers like Microsoft and SwissRe while Carbonfuture’s support helps scale the world’s most promising carbon removal ventures for real climate impact.About this episode:All too often, promising large-scale projects fall by the wayside because they’ve failed to capture the attention and imagination of the public, and they’ve failed to build trust with communities that have a real stake in the project.With new large-scale carbon removal (CDR) projects being announced and more information on the Department of Energy’s $3.5 billion DAC Hubs Program around the corner, I couldn’t think of a better time to cover this topic. My guest, Celina Scott-Buechler, has not just polled voters about their perceptions of CDR, but has engaged communities that could potentially be on the front lines of carbon removal deployment.In this episode, Na’im and Celina discuss:* Public perceptions of CDR uncovered by DFP’s polling* Why the distinction between carbon capture and storage and CDR is important* How to build protections for responsible CDR scale-up in policies* DOE’s DAC Hubs Program and flipping the typical implementation process on its head* Legacies of harm in communities, and the types of benefits communities want from DAC Hubs and CDR deployment more generallyRelevant links:* Data for Progress website* DFP’s Progressive Platform for Carbon Removal* Charting a Path to Just Direct Air Capture Hubs by Celina Scott-Buechler and Simone H. Stewart, Ph.D.* Setting DAC on Track: Strategies for Hub Implementation (Apr 2022) by Carbon180* Follow Celina on TwitterAbout Celina Scott-Buechler (Twitter):Celina is the Senior Resident Fellow for Climate Innovation at Data for Progress (DFP), where she leads DFP’s growing work on progressive carbon removal solutions—removing gigatons of past greenhouse gas emissions from the atmosphere by developing equitable, community-beneficial, and environmental justice-centered strategies. Celina holds a master’s in atmospheric science from Cornell University and is working toward a PhD in environment and resources at Stanford University.Na’im Merchant, Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Curve, is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge of removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere. Every week, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

Episode 10 of The Carbon Curve is with Stacy Kauk, Head of Sustainability at Shopify. After a few weeks off, I’m excited to bring you a new series of interviews with policy experts, market shapers, and entrepreneurs who are working tirelessly to responsibly and effectively scale up the carbon removal (or CDR) innovations needed to draw down CO2 from the atmosphere.Over the next 8 weeks I’ll be speaking with guests on topics including environmental justice, measurement, reporting, and verification, and the policies that helped spur plans for a multi-million ton per year direct air capture facility in Wyoming.Today, we’re covering a topic I’m absolutely obsessed with: How are we going to pay for carbon removal? Seriously. How are we going to pay for this?Companies like Shopify, Stripe, and Microsoft made catalytic early CDR purchases which helped create the entrepreneurial, dynamic carbon removal sector we see today.So I wanted to speak to Stacy Kauk, Head of Sustainability at Shopify, who was central to that effort about: the formation of an almost billion dollar advance market commitment for carbon removal, how we bring on the next wave of corporate buyers, and what comes next for the early catalytic funders that helped stimulate the CDR sector in the first place.In this episode, Na’im and Stacy talk about:* The formation of Shopify’s Sustainability Fund, it’s objectives, and notable successes to date* The genesis of the Frontier advance market commitment * How to attract the “next wave” of corporate buyers to long-duration carbon removal* What role the public sector could play in the long-term growth of CDRRelevant links:* Shopify’s Sustainability Fund* Frontier advance market commitment* Shopify’s report on kick-starting the carbon removal market* Follow Stacy Kauk on TwitterAbout Stacy Kauk:Stacy Kauk, P.Eng. joined Shopify in January 2020 and as the Head of Sustainability, Stacy’s role is to ensure the millions of businesses using Shopify’s platform, the nearly 600 million shoppers that purchased from a Shopify merchant last year alone, and climate entrepreneurs globally are working together in the fight against climate change. Stacy leads Shopify’s Sustainability Fund, which has committed more than $32M to date (since 2019) across 22 entrepreneurial, tech-driven companies, to accelerate carbon removal solutions globally. Most recently, Stacy was behind Shopify’s decision to help build and launch Frontier, an advance market commitment to buy an initial $925M of permanent carbon removal alongside our partners, Stripe, Alphabet, Meta, and McKinsey Sustainability. She also serves on the advisory board of the Carbon Management Research Initiative (CaMRI) at Columbia University. Prior to joining Shopify, Stacy was head of the Ozone Layer Protection Program at Environment and Climate Change Canada. Previously, Stacy worked on several chemicals management regulatory initiatives and represented Canada as a member of delegations for the Stockholm Convention and Montreal Protocol.Stacy began her career as a practicing engineer designing environmental protection measures and pollution prevention controls for a variety of industry sectors. She has worked for the City of Ottawa, Morrison Hershfield, and Golder Associates. Stacy holds a Bachelor of Engineering and Masters in Public Administration from Carleton University.Na’im Merchant, Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Curve, is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge of removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere. Every week, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

Episode 9 of The Carbon Curve is with Robert Höglund and Dr. Natalya Jarlebring from Milkywire’s Climate Transformation Fund.Over the last year or so, interest in carbon removal (CDR) has taken off.From the formation of new corporate buying coalitions, like Frontier, to large venture rounds, and ambitious new policies like Direct Air Capture Hubs, CDR is starting to hit an inflection point. All of this early traction is encouraging, but it also necessitates taking a step back, and reflecting on the carbon removal industry as it currently stands, and where it should go from here.It requires revisiting questions that some of us working in the industry with all the recent activity and excitement take for granted, like:* What is carbon removal’s role?* How should we define CDR?* How should corporates think about supporting the burgeoning CDR market?* Is it accurate to say there’s a CDR market in the first place?I’m excited to speak to today’s guests because they bring a degree of clarity to a marketplace that still feels shrouded in obscurity. They work on Milkywire’s Climate Transformation Fund supporting catalytic solutions - including permanent carbon removal - that are needed to reach global climate targets.In their capacity, they have worked through pretty foundational questions about CDR and have valuable insights to share on how we should be defining carbon removal, the state of the market today, and key priorities for the industry going forward.In this episode, Na’im, Robert, and Natalya discuss:* A more precise definition of carbon removal* Milkywire’s Climate Transformation Fund* The effective altruism case for supporting carbon removal* Does the carbon removal market even exist?* Where does the CDR industry go from here?Relevant links:* Milkywire’s Climate Transformation Fund* Climate Transformation Fund’s 2022 Progress Report* Article: Nature restoration and carbon removal are not the same. Here’s why it matters* Article: The carbon removal market doesn’t exist* CDR.FYI dashboardAbout Robert Höglund:Robert is an independent consultant dedicated to advancing the carbon removal ecosystem, writing about it, working on research and policy projects, running CDR trainings, etc. He also manages the Climate Transformation Fund at Milkywire, a donation fund that supports CDR and other climate projects. (Twitter)About Dr. Natalya Jarlebring:Natalya is a senior environmental lead at the tech platform Milkywire. She holds a Ph.D. in Environmental Science from Södertörn University, Sweden. Her research focused on various aspects of natural resource governance, as well as forest-related policy debates and their implications for the EU climate commitments. Natalya has also extensive experience working as a consultant in natural resource management and climate adaptation solutions. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast app or subscribe via The Carbon Curve newsletter here. If you’d like to get in touch with Na’im, you can reach out via Twitter and LinkedIn.Na’im Merchant is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge of removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere to combat climate change. Every two weeks, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

Last month, the Department of Energy hosted a virtual summit convening innovators, environmental organizations, government leaders, and other stakeholders about The Carbon Negative Shot. The DOE launched this bold initiative last year to stimulate innovation in carbon removal (CDR) pathways that remove and durably store CO2 from the atmosphere at gigaton scale for less than $100/net metric ton of CO2.I wrote about this target in a recent report I did on barriers to scaling up the carbon removal industry. In my conversations with stakeholders across the carbon removal field, there’s a widely held belief that in order to scale carbon removal we need to get the cost below this $100/ton threshold. Which I can understand, but …Why are we anchoring to this number in particular? Is it even realistic? What exactly is included in that cost? Is that the cost to the carbon removal provider? Or is it the price to the end buyer? Does it include subsidies? How about the cost of measurement, reporting, and verification? I think making carbon removal much more economical is absolutely necessary to successfully scale it up - and initiatives like the Carbon Negative Shot, policies like the expanded 45Q tax credit, and others will play a big role to get us there. But I think we need more precision in how we talk about cost and a better understanding of carbon removal’s many cost drivers. So I wanted to get into this topic with someone leading a carbon removal company and navigating this uncertain road - the CEO of Heirloom. We talk about the importance of clearing up these definitions, and the ecosystem levers that can help drive carbon removal down the cost curve.In this episode, Na’im and Shashank talk about:* A baseline definition for carbon removal* Key carbon removal cost drivers and implications for sub-$100/ton carbon removal* Challenges with storage, injection, and transportation* The ideal role of the public sector in supporting carbon removal* The importance of modularity for high technology learning rates* Other ecosystem barriers that could help drive down costs and scale up carbon removalRelevant show links:* Heirloom’s website (see careers page and white paper)* Report on Barriers to Scaling Long-duration Carbon Removal* How Solar Became Cheap by Greg NemetAbout Shashank Samala:Shashank Samala, CEO of Heirloom, a company with a goal of removing carbon dioxide out of the air at gigaton scale by 2035 to help reverse climate change. Shashank grew up in Southeast India where he saw firsthand the impact of climate change on some of the world's most vulnerable people.Shahank was previously an Entrepreneur in Residence at Carbon180, a leading climate policy NGO working on atmospheric carbon removal, and a founder at Tempo, which builds mission-critical electronics for surgical robots, satellites, reusable, rockets, and more, and raised over $100M from leading investors.Shashank previously worked at Square and received his Bachelor of Science degree from Cornell University.If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast app or subscribe via The Carbon Curve newsletter here. If you’d like to get in touch with Na’im, you can reach out via Twitter and LinkedIn.Na’im Merchant is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge of removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere to combat climate change. Every two weeks, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

In Episode 7 of The Carbon Curve, Na’im speaks to Dr. Meron Tesfaye and Dr. Danny Broberg from the Bipartisan Policy Center.This week, President Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act, which has been called the most consequential climate bill in history. Among other things, it makes a $369 billion investment in reducing carbon emissions and lowering energy costs, putting America closer to reaching the climate goals set by the current administration.It also has provisions that affect the carbon removal sector directly - expanding much-needed incentives that will grow the CDR industry, and position the US as a leader in this rapidly growing field.In my view, well-designed and well-executed policies can have the single greatest impact on scaling up CDR. So I wanted to speak to policy experts Dr. Meron Tesfaye and Dr. Danny Broberg at the Bipartisan Policy Center - a think tank based here in Washington, DC working on carbon removal policies - about the specific carbon removal investments in the Inflation Reduction Act, as well as supportive policies that have been recently passed, and new proposals we should be watching for on the near horizon.In this episode, Na’im, Meron, and Danny discussed:* Carbon removal in The Inflation Reduction Act* The CHIPS Act’s funding for carbon removal research, development, and deployment* Government procurement of carbon removal proposed in the Federal Carbon Dioxide Removal Leadership Act (CDRLA) and the Carbon Removal and Emissions Storage Technologies (CREST) Act * The DAC Hubs Program as part of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law* The Growing Climate Solutions Act, REMOVE Act, and SCALE Act* Policy priorities for carbon removal going forwardRelevant links:* Bipartisan Policy Center website* Summary of Energy and Climate Provisions in the Inflation Reduction Act (BPC)* Farm and Forest Carbon Solutions Task Force at BPC* Direct Air Capture Advisory Council at BPC* DAC Day Event Recap * Promoting Early Markets for Carbon Dioxide Removal Through Federal Procurement by Natalie Tham, Danny Broberg, and Xan FishmanDr. Meron Tesfaye is a senior policy analyst for BPC’s Energy Program. Meron has a Ph.D. in clean energy & hydrogen research and combines that state and federal-policy experience. Prior to BPC, she was a Senior Policy Fellow at Carbon180 and a Science Fellow in the California Senate Budget office. As a scientist turned policy enthusiast, Meron works on issues such as biomass-based carbon removal, hydrogen, and industrial decarbonization.Dr. Danny Broberg received his Ph.D. in Materials Science at UC Berkeley, where he researched next-generation solar and battery materials. After finishing his Ph.D., he went to Capitol Hill where he was a legislative fellow for Senator Chris Coons (D-DE). While there he helped craft and drive forward bipartisan policies relating to carbon management and clean energy commercialization. After a year and a half on the hill, he joined the Bipartisan Policy Center where he focuses primarily on carbon management policies, with a focus on technological solutions and critical mineral supply chains. He runs the BPC’s DAC Advisory Council, which includes companies like Carbon Engineering, Climeworks, Global Thermostat, and Air Liquide, as well as former members of Congress like Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-FL), John Delaney (D-MD, former presidential candidate), and Byron Dorgan (D-ND).If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast app or subscribe via The Carbon Curve newsletter here. If you’d like to get in touch with Na’im, you can reach out via Twitter and LinkedIn.Na’im Merchant is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge of removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere to combat climate change. Every two weeks, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

Episode 6 of The Carbon Curve is with Robert Niven, Chair and CEO of CarbonCure Technologies.Carbon removal (or CDR) is often represented as a process that involves pumping captured CO2 back underground where it belongs. But we can actually use CO2 removed from the atmosphere in every day products like plastics, fuels, and building materials. This is a burgeoning industry known as “carbontech” - where innovators are working on carbon neutral, and even carbon negative, products.One application that’s really intriguing to me is the process of infusing CO2 into concrete. Which means that concrete can potentially serve as a carbon sink, permanently locking away atmospheric CO2 while also reducing the amount of cement needed in the concrete mix - further reducing this essential product’s carbon footprint.I think this could be really impactful. Concrete is the second most consumed material in the world, second to water. If concrete production was a country, it would be the third largest greenhouse gas emitter on Earth, contributing to roughly 7% of global CO2 emissions. Additionally, because of chemical reactions integral to its production, concrete is really difficult to decarbonize.Thankfully, there are companies that are using CO2 to make concrete less carbon intensive. I wanted to speak to a leading company that’s working to solve this problem directly, to learn more about their technology, and find out about what businesses and governments can do to help drive greater demand for low carbon concrete.In this episode, Na’im and Rob discuss:* The carbon intensity of the concrete industry * An overview of CarbonCure’s technology* CarbonCure as a carbon removal company, and using carbon removal credits to erase low carbon concrete’s “green premium”* Policies that can support the scale-up of low carbon concrete, as well as opportunities for cities and communities to help drive demand* What Canada do to help commercialize more carbon removal companies like CarbonCure* The next six months for CarbonCureRelevant show links:* CarbonCure’s website, resources, and careers page, (Twitter and LinkedIn)* CarbonCure’s mission to reduce concrete emissions by 500 million tons per year (PDF)* Carbon180 report on federal strategies to support low carbon concrete, by Shuchi Talati, PhD, Chris Neidl, and Na’im Merchant* OpenAir Collective’s work on Low Embodied Carbon Concrete Leadership Act (LECCLA)* This Is CDR episode (YouTube) on combining DAC and concrete with Chris Neidl and Na’im Merchant* Carbon Curve post on companies at the cutting edge of carbontech (May 2022)If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast app or subscribe via The Carbon Curve newsletter here. If you’d like to get in touch with Na’im, you can reach out via Twitter and LinkedIn.Na’im Merchant is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up the climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere to combat climate change. Every two weeks, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

Episode 5 of The Carbon Curve is with Ben Rubin, Executive Director of the Carbon Business Council.Over the past two years, the carbon removal (CDR) sector has flourished according to a Climate Tech VC report.Carbon removal, carbon utilization and CCS companies, as well as carbon marketplaces raised a combined $1.5 billion in the first half of this year. That's an eightfold increase over the same period last year (with much of that growth happening in the carbon removal space) which led me to ask: with the carbon removal industry beginning to take shape, when does it make sense for this plethora of startups to join forces, learn from one another and secure the policy wins necessary to thrive as an industry? And how do you find common interests across companies with different technologies, geographies, and business models.A few weeks ago, the Carbon Business Council officially launched with 40 member organizations in tow representing every facet of the carbon management space. I thought I'd ask their new Executive Director, Ben Rubin, about their theory of change (especially given their technology neutral approach) and how they are going to find a shared set of priorities in this nascent and disparate industry to help get to gigaton scale carbon removal. In this episode, Na’im and Ben discuss:* What makes the Carbon Business Council different from other system actors in the carbon removal space* The types of members represented in the Carbon Business Council, and how they’re being brought together to help shape the policy landscape to achieve gigaton scale carbon removal* Why they endorsed the Carbon Removal and Emissions Storage Act (CREST Act) at launch* How they address the needs of members outside of the US* Their Ethical Oath to Restore the EarthMentioned in this episode:* Climate Tech VC’s analysis on climate funding in 2022* Carbon Business Council website and Oath to Restore the Earth* Bipartisan Policy Center’s blog post comparing the CREST Act and CDRLA; also my previous post on government procurement of carbon removalIf you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast app or subscribe via The Carbon Curve newsletter here. If you’d like to get in touch with Na’im, you can reach out via Twitter and LinkedIn.Na’im Merchant is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up the climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere to combat climate change. Every two weeks, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

Our 4th episode of The Carbon Curve is with Peter Reinhardt, CEO and co-Founder of Charm Industrial, where they're developing novel carbon removal and renewable industrial syngas technology. Prior to charm, Peter was CEO and co-founder at Segment a software as a service customer data platform, which grew to 600 people before it was acquired by Twilio in 2020 for 3.2 billion. He previously studied aerospace engineering at MITBuilding trust is absolutely critical to generating the political will and stakeholder buy-in we need to scale up carbon removal or CDR.The challenge is that there are few if any trusted third-party systems to stand behind a carbon removal project’s claims about tons removed, additionality, permanence, and a number of other factors that are important in ensuring high quality carbon removal did in fact happen.Most of the certification and verification systems that exist today are built around avoidance-based carbon offsets - which have a whole host of their own problems around quality and trust.Unsatisfied with the state of current standards, and recognizing the need to move quickly to solve this problem, Charm Industrial is charting a new path - building their own monitoring, reporting, and verification protocol with input from experts across the carbon removal sector.I wanted to speak to them to learn more about whether their approach has the potential to build trust in the broader carbon removal ecosystem.In this episode, Na’im and Peter discuss:* Charm’s carbon removal process relative to other approaches* Challenges with existing standard-setting systems in the carbon offsets world* Why Charm took a different approach to MRV, and what that looks like* If Charm’s approach is adopted by other companies, can it “abstract up” into a generally accepted, third party approach?Show links:* Charm’s website and blog post on their path to MRV* Charm’s public registry on carbon removal deliveries* Charm’s blog where more details on their protocol will be forthcoming* Na’im’s report with CarbonPlan on barriers to scaling carbon removal, including stakeholder perceptions on existing standard setting systemsIf you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast app or subscribe via The Carbon Curve newsletter here. If you’d like to get in touch with Na’im, you can reach out via Twitter and LinkedIn.Na’im Merchant is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up the climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere to combat climate change. Every two weeks, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com

The third episode of The Carbon Curve podcast is with Dai Ellis.Today’s discussion is about sketching out a vision for the carbon removal market. Creating that market is going to be really tricky. Unlike other climate technologies carbon removal, for the most part, doesn’t deliver a product or service besides its climate benefit. But the market for carbon removal can’t exist without large purchasers creating consistent demand.In recent months we’ve seen the private sector take up that mantle by banding together with other companies to create advance market commitments (or AMCs) to buy CDR, establishing much needed demand for this nascent industry.The model is fashioned after AMCs that were used in the global health space to scale up access to vaccines, HIV medicines, and other life saving health products in low income countries.Dai Ellis was instrumental in helping shape some of those markets back when we both worked at the Clinton Foundation (referred to as the Clinton Health Access Initiative or CHAI in this episode) well over 10 years ago. Now he’s thinking about market shaping in the context of new climate technologies. He wrote a series of four articles on his newsletter (subscribe here) sharing his lessons in global health to the early carbon removal market. Despite some key differences that Dai points out, there’s some really valuable lessons that we can apply from global health to scaling up CDR. This episode will shed some light on those lessons.Dai Ellis is an entrepreneur and executive coach to climate tech founders and CEOs. He helps companies through inflection-point moments of rapid growth, typically in the Series A to C phase, and his current clients include a range of leading climate tech companies like Arcadia, Sealed, Running Tide, and David Energy.Climate tech is Dai’s third career chapter after long stints in healthcare and education. Most recently, he co-founded a VC-backed startup in Africa called Nova Pioneer, building the first pan-African network of K-12 schools offering world-class education at affordable tuition levels.Even more relevant to what we’ll be talking about today, Dai previously led the Clinton Health Access Initiative’s (CHAI) work on creating and shaping markets for drugs, vaccines, and other health products in the developing world. During that stretch of his career he also chaired the Global Fund’s Market Dynamics Committee and served as an advisor to the Gates Foundation.In this episode, Na’im and Dai talk about:* What an advance market commitment (AMC) is, and how it was used in creating a market for vaccines and HIV medicines in low income countries* Features and challenges of these global health markets vs. the early CDR market today* Key similarities and differences between AMCs from the global health space and AMCs that have emerged to scale up CDR* Dai’s six building blocks for not just creating, but shaping a healthy, thriving CDR market and the 2 building blocks we need to stand up most urgentlyRead Dai’s excellent full series here:* Frontier and its AMC progenitor* Adventures in market shaping* Frontier as a CDR market steward* Toward a vision for the CDR marketRead my recent report with CarbonPlan on the barriers to scaling the carbon removal industry.You can connect with Dai Ellis on LinkedIn or Twitter or shoot him an email at ellisdai [at] gmail [dot] com.If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast app or subscribe via The Carbon Curve newsletter here. If you’d like to get in touch with Na’im, you can reach out via Twitter and LinkedIn.Na’im Merchant is an advisor and thought partner to start-ups, policy groups, and research organizations on scaling up the climate technologies to meet the monumental challenge removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere to combat climate change. Every two weeks, Na’im will release a short interview with individuals advancing bold new ideas and taking a collective action approach to scaling up carbon removal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit carboncurve.substack.com