The Waggle Room

Former Navy captain and fighter pilot Brian 'Ponch' Rivera delves deep into John Boyd's OODA loop, revealing how it connects to complex adaptive systems, the free energy principle, and organisational performance. From the archives of Boyd's work to practical applications in modern teams, Ponch shares insights on flow states, AI's limitations, and why most consultancies miss the true power of distributed intelligence.## Key Topics- The true OODA loop vs the linear "communist" version most people know- How fighter aviation principles translate to organisational learning- Connections between Boyd's work and the free energy principle- Why orientation is the key to adaptation and novelty- The flow system approach to team performance- AI through the lens of natural vs artificial intelligence- Sacred geometry, UAPs, and exploring weak signals## Where to Listen- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian## Guest InfoBrian 'Ponch' Rivera is co-creator and host of No Way Out podcast, CEO of AGLX, and co-author of the Flow System books. A retired US Navy captain with 28 years of service, he flew F-14s and worked in intelligence before becoming a leading voice on John Boyd's work and complex adaptive systems.- Website: https://aglx.com- Substack: https://worldofreorientation.substack.com- X/Twitter: https://x.com/nowayoutcast- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandrivera/

Nick De Voil brings a unique perspective to business analysis, combining his background in Russian, computer science, and human-centred design. This conversation explores the hidden communication channels in organisations - what Nick calls the 'service tunnels' alongside the main channels. We discuss why consensus is often an illusion, the power of metaphor in understanding complex systems, and why the explicit signal isn't always the real message.## Key Topics- The evolution from systems analysis to modern business analysis- Why organisations struggle with user-centred design despite decades of knowledge- The Channel Tunnel metaphor: main tunnels vs service tunnels in organisational communication- Group construct analysis and George Kelly's personal construct psychology- The role of metaphor and storytelling in business analysis- AI's impact on business analysis - productivity vs thinking- Marshall McLuhan's "the medium is the message" and organisational signals## Where to Listen- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian## Guest InfoNick De Voil is a business analyst, trainer, and writer who specialises in user experience, service design, and human-centred approaches to organisational change. He's contributed 20 articles to BA Digest magazine and teaches courses in user experience, business analysis, and service design. Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or read his articles at blackmetric.co.uk.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickdevoil/BA Digest (the full GCA article series): https://www.blackmetric.com/ba-digest/User Experience Foundations (BCS): https://shop.bcs.org/store/221/detail/WorkGroupByIsbn/9781780173498

Dr Delia McCabe, neuroscientist and founder of Lighter Brighter You, explains how nutrition, technology, and stress shape brain capacity. She tackles pseudoscience in organisations. Short takes cover nutrient gaps, screen-driven learning loss, neural friction, information overload as modern burnout, and why leaders must factor cognitive energy into work and AI adoption.

Mike Jones, Strategic Advisor at LBI Consulting and host of Strategy Meets Reality, challenges the conventional approach to strategy. From his military background to studying cognitive psychology, Mike reveals why most organisational strategies fail and how leaders can adopt a continuous, adaptive approach to strategic thinking. This conversation explores the gap between strategy documents and strategic reality.## Key Topics• Why treating strategy as a document rather than a way of being leads to failure• The three critical elements leaders must consider: ground/ecosystem, other actors, and internal capabilities• How military planning principles can transform organisational decision-making• The cognitive security threat facing modern leaders in their strategic thinking• Moving from consensus-driven paralysis to clear decision rights and accountability• Why organisational structure matters more than behaviour change for strategy execution## Where to Listen- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian## Guest InfoMike Jones is Strategic Advisor at LBI Consulting and host of the Strategy Meets Reality podcast. With 18 years of military service and expertise in cognitive psychology, Mike helps organisations move beyond static strategic planning to adaptive strategic thinking.- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-h-jones/- LBI Consulting: https://www.lbiconsulting.com- Strategy Meets Reality YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StrategyMeetsReality- Podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0svOpfmsZTmrvIXcBpJbys- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/strategy-meets-reality-podcast/id1811429931- Substack: https://strategymeetsreality.substack.com

Erika Clegg, founder of Larkenby and author of 'Junk Values', challenges the corporate values industry with refreshing honesty. Drawing from her background running a brand consultancy, Erika argues that 99.5% of values work is performative nonsense that actually damages trust rather than building it.## Key Topics- Why values workshops and Post-it note exercises miss the point entirely- The three ways to spot 'junk values' in any organisation- How the top corporate values words (integrity, collaboration) appear everywhere but mean nothing- Why values should be decision-making parameters, not wall decorations- The difference between being 'nice' and being 'kind' in leadership- How narrative-driven culture requires clearer personal principles- The Ubuntu philosophy and responsibility in modern workplaces## About Erika CleggErika Clegg is the founder of Larkenby and author of 'Junk Values'. After running a brand consultancy for years, she became increasingly frustrated with how organisations approach values work. She now helps leaders and organisations develop authentic principles that actually guide decision-making, rather than decorative statements that undermine trust.- Email: erika@larkenby.com- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/erikaclegg- Website: larkenby.com- Website: erikaclegg.com## 🎧 Watch / Listen to The Waggle Room- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3pGKXNEbmy9qTy43dHsBdi- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

Mick sits down with Marcus Dimbleby, founder of Effective Direction, to explore the shocking reality of workforce disengagement and what leaders can do about it. With UK engagement at just 10% globally, Marcus reveals why traditional approaches are failing and how critical thinking can transform organisations.## Key Topics- UK workforce engagement sits at just 10% - the lowest globally- Why promotion without leadership training creates a "drop off the cliff" effect- The false promise of wellbeing initiatives and performative solutions- How AI without collective intelligence (CI) will fail catastrophically- The importance of creating safe environments for challenge and fun- Why Gen Z cognitive decline demands urgent action on critical thinking## About Marcus DimblebyMarcus Dimbleby is the founder of Effective Direction, focusing on unleashing people's potential through critical thinking and adaptive leadership. With 20+ years in the Royal Air Force, Marcus works with leadership teams to apply evidence-based approaches to organisational transformation. He co-authored "Big Things Fast" and specialises in helping startups scale and family businesses professionalise their leadership.linkedin.com/in/marcusdimblebyeffectivedirection.combigthingsfast.cominfo@effectivedirection.com## Where to Listen- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

In this episode, Tricia Kennedy, co-author of 'Changed Myths', explores why outdated change models persist and how we can apply critical thinking to organisational change. From debunking the change curve to questioning ADKAR, Tricia advocates for attacking ideas rather than people whilst maintaining intellectual honesty in our practice.## Key Topics- Why change myths become embedded as 'sacred cows' in organisations- The difference between attacking ideas versus attacking people- How to apply the LIAR framework (Logic, Authority, Intuition, Research) to evaluate change models- Context-driven change approaches versus one-size-fits-all templates- The challenge of measuring change outcomes versus activities- AI's potential to create an inflection point for the change profession## Where to Listen- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian## Guest InfoTricia Kennedy is an organisational change professional with over 20 years' experience and co-author of 'Changed Myths' with Paul Gibbons. Connect with her on LinkedIn for links to her books and ongoing discussions about evidence-based change practice.## Guest Links- linkedin.com/in/triciak- TriciaK.com- triciakennedy@hotmail.com- Change Myths: The Professionals Guide to Separating Sense from Nonsense

Nigel Thurlow brings decades of experience from Toyota, complexity thinking, and organisational transformation to a conversation that challenges how we think about leadership, tools, and the future of work. From the Toyota Production System to the dangers of abdicating decision-making to AI, Nigel unpacks why most organisational change fails—and what leaders are missing.## Key Topics- Why Toyota isn't a collection of tools—it's all about behaviours, discipline, and human factors- The theatre of consulting: why transformation programmes fail every three years- Distributed leadership and transferring ownership of decision-making to those doing the work- Red is not bad—red means "I need help": building cultures that embrace problems, not hide them- The Peter Principle and promoting people to their level of incompetence- AI as intelligent automation: will we serve the machine, or will it serve us?- Weak signals we're ignoring: social media, misinformation, and the slow drift toward machine subservience- Nigel's work with his son Elliot bringing audio descriptive commentary to sport in the US## Where to Listen- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian## Guest InfoNigel Thurlow is an executive coach, board advisor, co-creator of The Flow System®, and creator of Scrum The Toyota Way™. He brings deep expertise in complexity thinking, distributed leadership, and team science—grounded in years working within Toyota's production system.Connect with Nigel:- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nigelthurlow- Website: nigelthurlow.com- Flow Consortium: flowconsortium.com- Flow Guides: flowguides.org- Ear Sport (Audio Descriptive Commentary): hearsport.com

Dr Carrie Goucher joins Mick to explore why meetings haven't improved in 50 years—and what we're getting fundamentally wrong. Drawing on her PhD in systems thinking and meeting culture and 25 years helping organisations shift from industrial-era hierarchies to faster, more agile ways of working, Carrie unpacks the hidden systems driving meeting dysfunction, from collabureaucracy to the parent-child dynamics that still dominate knowledge work.## Key Topics- Why meetings are a systems problem, not a process problem—and why surface-level fixes (agendas, timekeeping) miss the point- The three dominant organisational models (control, achievement, consensus) and how each creates its own meeting pathology- How bees make decisions through quorum, not consensus—and why waiting for 100% agreement is organisational death- The historical roots of meetings: from trial by combat to Quaker decision-making architecture- Four things organisations must do: constrain meeting time, add scaffolding, handle conflict better, and design rhythm and system- The shift from parent-child to adult-to-adult relationships as the foundation for knowledge-era collaboration## Where to Listen- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian## Guest InfoDr Carrie Goucher is a systems thinker and organisational designer specialising in meetings and collaboration. She has a PHD in meeting culture from Cambridge. She helps organisations move from industrial-era hierarchies to faster, more agile ways of working.- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/carriebedingfield- Website: fewerfasterbolder.com

Former commando engineer Chris Marren joins Mick to explore how military principles translate into modern leadership. From mission command and patrol lanes to the importance of specific timings and clear communication, Chris shares practical frameworks for creating clarity in complex environments. The conversation moves through the power of observation over feedback, the lost art of sensing frequency and vibration in others, and why asking people to paraphrase what they've heard saves time in the long run.## Key Topics- Translating mission command principles into business silos and team management- Why "feedback" should be replaced with "observations" in leadership conversations- The importance of specificity: timing, objectives, and standards- How frequency and vibration communicate more than we realise- Conditioning people to listen through strategic questioning- The value of creating visual clarity (like military ground models) in organisational contexts## Where to Listen- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian## Guest InfoChris Marren served 27 years in the military with the commando engineers before transitioning to coaching, leadership development, and children's author. He's passionate about teaching humans how to think, not what to think.- Email: cm@chrismarrenassociates.com- Mickey Monroe books: mickymonroe.com- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/chris-marren