Radio Free Mormon

On June 27th 1844, Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, was martyred at Carthage Jail by a mob. Or at least that is how the generally accepted story goes. In the last 8 months, Justin Griffin (Director & Producer) and Steve Sorensen (Film Maker), have shared their research that maybe things are not what we have been told. They present their experts, their research, and their conclusions that it was in fact John Taylor and Willard Richards that in fact murdered their own prophet in cold blood. RFM and Bill take a look at their research and the testimony of their experts to see what can be seen with a critical eye. Is this research true? Was Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith killed by their friends? RESOURCES: RESOURCES: RESOURCES:whokilledjosephsmith.com https://www.youtube.com/@jgriffWKJS https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3961&context=byusq https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/john-tayl

RFM, John Dehlin, Nemo and Mike from LDS Discussions team up to discuss the age-old tradition of backdating prophecies, and how Joseph Smith appears to have made use of this same technique. Bottom Line–It’s easier to predict the future when it is actually in the past!

On this week’s episode we sit down with Brent Bokovoy, Writer and Director of the upcoming film “Ronald’s Little Factory”, and we discuss all the twists and turns in Mormon Cinema including your favorites, along with movies you have likely forgotten, as well as one’s you never heard of. We finish out the episode discussing the upcoming film “Ronald’s Little Factory”. Boyd K Packer would have been proud! RESOURCES:Ronald’s Little Factory Trailer 1 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcsMBJ6kk6wRonald’s Little Factory – The Why behind the Film – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhFnlp9qjc4 EARLY MORMON CINEMA* A Mormon Maid* A Victim Of The Mormons* Brigham YoungLDS PRODUCED CINEMA* Johny Lingo* The Pump*  Legacy* The TestamentsMODERN MORMON CINEMA* Virginia* God’s Army*  Brigham City* States of Grace* The Singles Ward* The RM* Baptists At The Barbecue* Sons Of Provo* The Home Teachers* Mobsters And Mormons* The Book of Mormon Movie* The Other Side of Heaven* The Best Two Years* Saints And Soldiers* Once I Was A BeehivePOST MORMON CINEMA* Plan 10 From Outer Space* Orgazmo* South Park Episode* The Book Of Mormon Musical* Latter Days* Trapped By The Mormons* Big Love* Angels In America* September Dawn* The Book Of Zombie* Electrick Children* The Falls* Missionary* Room 104SHORT FILMS* Bad Mormons* Killer Missionaries* The Touch Of The Master’s HandDOCUMENTARIES* 8 The Mormon Proposition* Believer* TabloidRECENT* Murder Among The Mormons* Keep Sweet And Obey* Under The Banner Of Heaven* Sins of Our Mother*  Mormon No More* Abducted In Plain Sight* A Friend of the Family

Included here is the complaint OSF filedhttps://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/OSF-Complaint-filed-copy.pdf & Jenn Kamp’s Complaint Filedhttps://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/Jenn-Kamp-Lawsuit-Against-John-Dehlin-and-OSF-REDACTED-A.pdf

RFM and Bill review the recent set of Documents and other items sent by Florida Law Enforcement in RFM as part of a Freedom of Information Request.  It is best to watch this on YouTube where the documents can be observed. ***TRIGGER WARNING***This episode will contain details of an alleged Homicide of a child. Please skip this episode if needed and please keep kids away from this episode.

Former Open Stories Foundation employee Jenn Kamp has gone public recently about the lawsuit she has filed against John Dehlin and the OSF. Now John Dehlin and OSF have filed a countersuit against Jenn Kamp. Included here is the complaint OSF filedhttps://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/OSF-Complaint-filed-copy.pdf & Jenn Kamp’s Complaint Filedhttps://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/Jenn-Kamp-Lawsuit-Against-John-Dehlin-and-OSF-REDACTED-A.pdf

The Salt Lake Tribune recently published a book review on the book “Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints” published by the Maxwell Institute. Both the book and the Tribune article make note that what Latter-day Saints believed about early Christianity and the Great Apostasy may not only “overly simplistic, if not (a) completely false narrative”. But where did Latter-day Saints get these beliefs? How did Mormonism define the Great Apostasy? And more importantly if we redefine the very reasons for what a Restoration is and why it was needed, might we be undercutting the restoration itself? Maxwell Institute Book available –Ancient Christians Available Now – Neal A. Maxwell Institute (byu.edu) 1832 First Vision Account contradicting SLTRIB Claim that B. H. Roberts was the first promoted the apostasy narrative – History, circa Summer 1832, Page 1 (josephsmithpapers.org) 1838 First Vision account also contains significant apostasy narrative piecesHistory, circa June 1839–circa 1841 [Draft 2], Page 3 (josephsmithpapers.org)  The Great Apostasy by: James Talmage published 1909 by the Deseret News – Which lays out in significant ways “The Great Apostasy” – The great apostasy : considered in the light of scriptural and secular history : Talmage, James Edward, 1862-1933 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive The Church url for their pamphlet on the Great Apostasy – The Great Apostasy (churchofjesuschrist.org) While The Church is reducing the Great Apostasy to only Priesthood and Keys – They clearly have attached Doctrine, Church organization and Offices, consistency of Saving Rituals as well as imposing that Christ set up an actual Church as key components of  “The Great Apostasy” – Talks where some of those concepts are spoken Example 1Example 2Example 3 The Church teaches that part of the Great Apostasy is that rather than leading via revelation that the early Christian Church instead traqnsitioned over to “Long Conferences” and “Erudite Councils” “depending upon their own brilliant minds” (See Manual Image Below) –  and yet Elder Eyring admits that such is the very way this Church is led – Henry B. Eyring: “Forget Harvard and Stanford. We’re in another kind of thing here.” – YouTube LDS Church Shifting to More Pageantry and Colorful Presentation to satisfy everyone (which in their manual they claim is a sign of the Great Apostasy)   Example 1Example 2Example 3 The Modern Church creating a narrative of an ongoing restoration and that such has only begun to obfuscate that they are moving and shifting in every way they had previously labeled in the early Church as signs of Apostasy  (Please note how is one to discern that all shifts and changes ithin the modern Church are “Auhtorized” and all shifts and changes in the Ancient Church are “Unauthorized” 1.) Distorting the and changing the Church organization and offices (Modern Church has changed the calling of Seventies, disbanded the General Patriarch, and created and then laterdisbanded the High Priests Group 2.) Silence between the Heavens and the Earth 3.) Vast numbers who had professed membership and many who had been officers in the ministry deserted the church; while a few were stimulated to greater zeal under the scourge of persecution. 4.) Internal dissension, schism and disruption, whereby an absolute apostasy of the Church from the way and word of God was brought about” 5.) The corrupting (Changing) of the simple doctrines of the gospel of Christ by admixture with so-called philosophic systems. (Corrupting is subjective) 6.) Unauthorized (Subjective) additions to the prescribed rites and rituals of the church and the introduction of vital alterations in essential ordinances.  7.) Unauthorized (Subjective) changes in church organization and government 8.) “If the savior had come back to earth at the beginning of the fifth century A.D., i doubt whether he would have recognized the Christian church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray.”  VERSUS ” If Joseph Smith came back to earth  today, i doubt whether he would have recognized the LDS Church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray.” 9.) The power of godliness was no longer present in the Christian church.   (Is that power recognizable within the LDS Church ?) 10.) The laws were changed (Notice all the laws that have changed in the LDS Church EXAMPLES: The doing away of “Free Agency” and D&C say a Disciplinary Court requires 12 high priests but the Modern Church says not necessary) 11.) The ordinances were changed (Notice the changes to the Endowment) 12.) The everlasting covenant was broken that the lord Jesus Christ gave to his people in those days. (Notice what happened to the New and Everlasting Covenant within Mormonism AKA Polygamy) 13.) The superimposing of a man-made structure upon and over the divine program. 14.) Many men with no pretense nor claim to revelation, speaking without divine authority or revelation, depending only upon their own brilliant minds, but representing as they claim the congregations of the Christians. 15.) In long conference and erudite councils, sought the creation process to make a God which all could accept. 16.) The brilliant minds with their philosophies, knowing much about the Christian traditions and the pagan philosophies, would combine all elements to please everybody. 17.) They replaced the simple ways and program of the Christ with spectacular rituals, colorful display, impressive pageantry, and limitless pomposity, and called it Christianity. 18.) They had replaced the glorious, divine plan of exaltation of Christ with an elaborate, colorful, man-made system. they seemed to have little idea of totally dethroning the Christ, nor terminating the life of God, as in our own day, but they put together an incomprehensible God idea” It also should be noted that the LDS Church imposes that Christ organized his Church, and set forth the offices of the Church and that whenever the Gospel has been on the Earth it has been taught and administered by the Church.  Also note that even believing Faithful Scholars within the Church indicate that Jesus and his disciples remained Jews within the Jewish faith and synagogue. 

A new apologetic technique has arisen in recent years of trying to prove the Book of Mormon true by proving all naturalistic theories false. RFM analyzes this methodology and shows it to be fundamentally flawed in a number of ways. Brian Hales, the current proponent of this apologetic, isn’t going to like this episode!

Recently Bill did a solo episode away from Mormonism LIVE walking members into the historical analysis of the initial Doctrine of tithing as 10% of one’s Surplus or Interest to help believers sense they had an option backed by historical documentation that allowed them to save themselves Thousands of Dollars a year while remaining faithful. After that episode a listener sent Bill and RFM an image of a vintage Church Handbook of Instruction that got their wheels turning and this week’s episode seeks to to delve into a historical analysis of how Surplus or Interest became Gross. And YES, You will be disgusted. Here is the pdf presentation of the outline – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Tithing-Whats-In-A-Word.pdf The Introduction of Tithing to the Saints and “What is in a word” D&C 119 VS 1-4 (Given in 1838) – This law was imposed by God as a “Standing Law Forever” and came after the Law of Consecration had failed. Strange that Heavenly Father seems unable to see that this “Standing Law Forever” was about to be anything but consistent and eternal. Tithing has always meant a tenth. History of tithing in the world generally But a tenth of what? is the crux Verse 1 – Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands It seems the original commandment required ALL Surplus property be given to the Church upon entry into the faith. Verse 4 – Intimates that once one has entered the faith giving all their surplus property, they there after “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually” INTEREST = #3 “Regard to private profit” #4 “Any surplus advantage” What does Surplus mean = “What is above and beyond after the necessities are taken care of” “that which remains when use is satisfied” What does all this mean The law of tithing when taken on face value without any manipulation of the words seems to mean “When one enters the Church they are to hand over all Surplus property (any property above and beyond what is a necessity of life), and to then pay 1/10th of their “interest” or “surplus advantage” annually It also says that this shall be a standing law forever hence meaning it is DOCTRINE and can’t be changed (Without additional revelation). “Settled; established, either by law or by custom, etc.; continually existing; permanent; not temporary” Since it is the Church who is about to muddy the waters the question is being begged if “Interest” means something other than how the word is literally why wasn’t God more clear? Examples of how it was interpreted in early Church history JST Genesis 14:39 vs the original verse Genesis 14:20 that Joseph seems to be modifying (between June 1830 and July 1833) Original – “And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.” Joseph Smith’s Adaptation – “Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.” Joseph seems to be modifying this narrative about Melchizedek so as to have it conform with D&C 119’s reasonable interpretation of tithing as 1/10 of surplus. What he adds should be assumed to be altering the meaning otherwise why adapt it at all. Bishop Partridge “If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and 1/10 of the interest will of course be $6.— thus you see the plan.” Bishop Edward Partridge letter to Newel K. Whitney, July 24, 1838 Bishop Partridge, the first Bishop in the Church is instructing Newel K Whitney (I believe the second bishop in the Church) on the definition of tithing and his responsibility to collect it Bishop Partridge seems to be interpreting tithing literally based on the verse “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest (increase) annually” and is suggesting that one pay 10% of the interest earned on one’s net worth invested at 6% Lastly Steven Harper seems to agree when he says “Bishop Partridge understood “one tenth of all their interest” annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year” Millennial Star 1847 (Orson Hyde Editor) – “The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” – quotes comes post end of consecration and after law of tithing is revealed This seems to deeply agree with the very interpretations we laid out by simply being reasonable with the definitions of wordsa.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing before feeding your familyb.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing gets you out of povertyc.) It seems to disagree with paying the tithing of the income you want to haved.) It seems to disagree with Net Blessings or Gross Blessings Lorenzo Snow 1899 in Saint George – (Church source ) ““I pray that every man, woman, and child [who has means] shall pay one tenth of their income as tithing.” When net or gross are used everyone has means with almost no exception. Lorenzo Snow’s words mesh extremely well with that 1847 Millennial Star section. Though we see for the First Time Income is substituted for Interest. This seems to be the place where later statements define interest as income. This is apparently the place where later leaders claim “interest” to understood as income. The Modern Church while using the Income for Interest Substitution always withholds “Who has means” every time Snow is requoted in Church Materials, seemingly to deceive members from making a decision based on the full quote. (Ballard hiding Things Audio Bite). This is dishonest, gaslighting, manipulation, and once one grasps the pressure local leaders feel to impose 10% of gross it is also coercion. You can’t have one without the other. It’s where they get their “understanding” The Doctrine of Tithing as it was interpreted by Various Church Handbooks of Instruction (And the Official Letter in 1970)1913 Handbook 1923 handbook 1944 Handbook 1960 handbook 1963 handbookTHIS 1963 HANDBOOK IS WHEN TITHING IS EXPLICITLY DEFINED AS ON GROSS INCOME. ONLY TO BE TAKEN BACK OUT THE FOLLOWING HANDBOOK. 1968 handbooka. Notice the apparent pushback or reconsideration and hence retreat away from being explicit about gross. This is a partial wondering about any legal liability due to their being explicit and contradicting past definitions 1970 First Presidency Letter “We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – this is Bullshit. THE 1899 CONFERENCE TALK BY SNOW SEEMS TO BE THE PLACE THEY PULL FROM TO REDEFINE INTEREST AS INCOME 1976 Handbook Closeup 1983 Handbook 1989 Handbook Conclusion Knowing what these words mean, knowing how they were interpreted, knowing how they were implemented and carried out imposes that Church members grasp this all meant Interest literally. It meant surplus literally. It meant Increase literally….. And then suddenly somewhere, somehow all of these words are changed to mean “Income” out of thin air. RFM–IT IS NOTEWORTHY THAT THE CHANGE FROM “INTEREST” TO “INCOME” WAS DONE BY LORENZO SNOW IN THE CONTEXT OF RAISING MORE MONEY TO GET THE CHURCH OUT OF DEBT. PERHAPS THIS WAS THE REASON FOR THE CHANGE; IN ORDER TO RAISE MORE MONEY. And until an official voice (Church leader or LDS Newsroom) can explain to the Church membership where Surplus or interest earned became Gross or even Net “Income” every Church member should refuse to play by rules that have been made up in order to create the wealthy Church we have today. Why the bait and switch in meaning from Interest meaning surplus to Interest meaning Gross or Net Income?, why the bait and switch in word substitution and vocabulary going from the word Interest to the word income? Why the obfuscation of “Who Has Means”, and why not actually follow the very rule they pretend exists and allow “every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”?We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – Again bullshit RESOURCES:https://www.britannica.com/topic/tithe https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng

Radio Free Mormon and his faithful sidekick, The Backyard Professor, complete their dismemberment of Elder Bednar’s recent two-part talk titled, “That Ye May Believe.” Nothing about Elder Bednar has ever been this much fun!