Building With Buyers: Startup Marketing and Growth Fueled By Customers

Natalie Marcotullio & Mark Kilens invited me on their podcast GTM News Desk.We discuss:How do you build messaging that actually sticks across every team that touches it? How do you know when an "insight" is genuinely worth acting on or when it's just a pattern dressed up in fancy words? What does it take to teach AI to think like you, not just write like one version of you?Mojo Founder Eric Holland and I reveal what's really broken about how B2B companies develop and distribute their messaging. We dig into why most customer research is pulled from the most biased data available and how to document your decision-making, not just your knowledge, so AI can actually replicate your judgment. We also provide answers to why chasing every new AI workflow is making most marketers worse, not better. Eric and I challenge the idea that volume of insights equals quality of insights, arguing that a single finding that changes how your whole company goes to market is worth more than a hundred tagged Gong quotes.Jump in:(00:00) We need a higher standard for b2b research(00:35) What CMOs are actually talking about at conferences right now(04:40) How shame and fear became the default AI adoption strategy(08:41) The difference between AI-exhausted and AI-excited teams(12:44) Four Tendencies and what it means for AI adoption(16:31) Why B2B messaging is broken even at well-funded startups(19:14) What separates Mojo from just pointing Claude at your Notion(27:26) What good writing actually feels like and whether AI can get there(32:17) The solar plexus test and how to know when your copy is working(34:05) Why nuance and emotion are the real gap in AI writing(39:27) Why most insight tools are just pattern-matching machines(44:19) How to check if your researcher is actually any good(47:30) The danger of everyone using the same workflows to find the same "insights"(50:01) What B2B marketing gets wrong that B2C figured out long ago(53:21) Go deep on one thing for a quarter(55:22) Why you should only build what you already know in your sleepConnect with Eric: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-holland-not-a-marketer/ Connect with Anna: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov/ Mojo: https://mojopmm.com/Mojo + Moxie: https://mojo-and-moxie.com/Natalie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalie-marcotullio/Mark: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markkilens/

Hi, we need to talk. This is important. One of the worst things that AI is doing to PMMs right now: making pattern recognition look like insight. I've been surprised how many tools give you dozens of "insights" without anything to back it up other than pattern recognition and quotes. Just because something came up multiple times doesn't make it an insight! Please hear me out, we must do better.00:00 The disconnect between interesting information and decision insights02:48 Defining decision insights05:16 Emotional insights in B2C07:48 The limits of current research tools10:07 Introducing Aha PMM12:55 Why decision insights matter todaySubscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, tell me what you're listening to, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Aha PMM ⁠blog article⁠Anna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight⁠⁠

Eric Holland is a recovering product marketer who quit his job to focus on custom messaging assistants + interactive demos. Founder @Mojo PMM: Burn your boring messaging doc. Mojo is your custom messaging assistant that creates bold, persona-specific messaging for anything you need, that your whole team wants to use. I recently joined Eric at Mojo PMM as their first ever Messaging Whisperer.Co-Founder @DemoDash: 100+ interactive demos shipped for Navattic customers (that’s actually how we met).Also co-hosts the We’re Not Marketers podcast.We talk about messaging & AI, specifically:Can AI help you write copy?Should AI help you write copy?Marketing teams are moving faster with AI, but not necessarily making better decisions. What’s broken?What we're building and why.Subscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, message me what you're listening to, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Eric on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/eric-holland-not-a-marketerMojo PMM: mojopmm.comAnna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight⁠

In the last episode (270), Caitlin Sullivan (AI + Customer Research expert) asked me "what would have to change for you to feel that AI is trustworthy?" It's a really good question and I answer it in this short episode.Subscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, message me what you're listening to, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Anna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight⁠

I know, I know. Season 5 wrapped up. But I couldn't help myself.Caitlin Sullivan is an expert in AI for Customer Research. She trains growth-ready product & design teams to know their customers faster. Clients include YouTube, Spotify, Ramp, Meta, and Canva.Here’s what we covered:00:00 Introduction to AI in Customer Research03:41 The Shift in AI Usage for Customer Research09:25 Building Systems for Effective Research12:59 Challenges with AI Insights17:55 Completeness in Research with AI21:17 Common Mistakes in Customer Research25:01 Emotional Nuances in Research & Why they're important27:08 Understanding AI's Interpretation of Emotions29:46 The Role of Human Insight in AI Training32:25 AI as a Co-Pilot and The Importance of Collaboration35:37 Catching AI Errors38:30 The Necessity of Human Involvement in Research39:55 Balancing AI and Human Decision-Making45:02 Knowing When You Have Enough Data To Stop And Decide46:44 Favorite Tools for Research and Analysis50:00 Caitlin asks me her burning question which I will answer in a separate BONUS episodeCaitlin on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/caitlindsullivanAI Analysis for PMs course: https://maven.com/caitlin/ai-analysis-pmsSubscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, message me what you're listening to, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Music by my talented daughter.Anna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight

Thanks for being here, for listening, for collaborating, thanks for sharing episodes with others, for sharing stuff with me - when people DM me on LI with their fave episodes - for leaving a review, thank you for all of it. Here's the link to the article "35 Creative Customer Marketing Plays". Wishing you a warm + connected holiday season and positive, fresh beginnings for 2026.Subscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, message me what you're listening to, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Music by my talented daughter.Anna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight

To wrap the year, my client Navattic invited nine of their marketing advisors (including me!) for an open panel on what’s working and what’s worn out from 2025, and where we're placing big bets for 2026. ~300 ppl registered.A few highlights - Worn out: Being a part of every over-saturated channel. AI hype. Talking about how SEO traffic is “collapsing.” Instead, focus on channels where you are the only one (like self-hosted events), thoughtfully using AI tools instead of from pressure, and recognizing that traffic is no longer the best way to measure trust.What we're keeping for 2026:Pipeline acceleration campaigns (instead of just acquisition).Customer marketing as a strategic growth strategy.Bespoke events that attendees want to post photos of on social.Subscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, message me what you're listening to, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Music by my talented daughter.Anna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight

Everyone's been telling me "you gotta talk to Kevin!" Kevin Lau is VP Global Customer Marketing at Freshworks. Freshworks provides AI-assisted IT and customer service software to 75k+ companies. 9,500+ employees, IPO’d back in 2021.Here’s what we cover:01:58 Why Customer Relationships are so important especially going into next year05:40 The Customer Marketing Team at Freshworks09:02 Redefining Customer Marketing at Freshworks (more than just advocacy)12:56 Collaboration Between Customer and Product Marketing16:48 Voice of Customer and ongoing Feedback Mechanisms27:58 The Importance of Customer Marketing & why companies that focus on Net New are already behind31:10 Most Creative Customer Marketing Plays37:24 Building Customer Engagement Programs from scratch39:42 Measuring the Impact of Customer Marketing43:08 Using AI in Customer Marketing50:46 Hopes, fears, future outlook on AI and Customer Marketing (it's not all bad)Kevin on LinkedIn: ⁠www.linkedin.com/in/kevinkennethlauFreshworks: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.freshworks.comSubscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, message me what you're listening to, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Music by my talented daughter.Anna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight

Melanie Paddock is Sr. Manager, Customer Marketing & Advocacy at Gainsight. Gainsight is the world’s leading Customer Success platform. 1,100 ppl, $156M+ total funding, Series E.Here’s what we cover:02:48 The Importance of Customer Love05:34 Building an Advocacy Program from Scratch08:24 Gamification and Customer Engagement11:16 Creating a Community for your Advocates14:20 Leveraging Customer Proof for Sales17:08 Top Challenges in Customer Marketing19:57 Building deep Relationships with Customers is such an opportunity22:41 Avoiding Transactional Relationships in Customer Marketing23:31 How to build trust29:08 Transforming Customer Marketing into your Strategic Advantage, not a "nice to have"29:24 The Role of Customer Research in Marketing34:30 Leveraging AI in Customer Marketing43:59 Melanie asks me her burning question (HINT: the future of customer marketing + the impact of AI)Melanie on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/melaniepaddockGainsight: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.gainsight.comSubscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, let me know what episodes you're into, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Music by my talented daughter.Anna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight

Shannon Howard is Senior Director of Customer & Content Marketing at Intellum. Intellum is AI transformation for enterprise learning. $25M in funding, 139 people.Here’s what we cover:05:35 Shannon shares some Creative Customer Marketing Strategies08:41 Building the Foundation for Customer Marketing11:09 The Role of Data in Customer Marketing14:00 Surprise and Delight16:49 Empowering Customers Through Recognition19:57 Segmentation and Personalization in Marketing22:33 B2B vs B2C Marketing Dynamics26:28 Why Customer Marketing is often overlooked by CMOs30:00 Customer Marketing Strategies to put in your back pocket33:17 The Role of Customer Research & Shannon's take37:12 The Impact of AI on Customer Insights50:38 Shannon asks Anna her burning questionShannon on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/shannonlagassehowardIntellum: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.intellum.comSubscribe to Building With Buyers on Apple or Spotify or wherever you like to listen, let me know what episodes you're into, and don't forget to leave a review if you're lovin' the show.Music by my talented daughter.Anna on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠furmanovmarketing.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠One Insight