Outthinkers

Joe Pine is the co-author of The Experience Economy—and one of the thinkers who gave leaders a language for why “services” weren’t the end of the story. In this episode, Joe returns with his next major thesis: we’ve entered the Transformation Economy, where the customer is no longer buying inputs (features, service hours, or even memorable moments), but paying for outcomes—lasting change.We unpack what makes a transformation fundamentally different from an experience, why experiences are increasingly commoditized, and why the biggest opportunities now sit in helping people (and organizations) become who they want to become. Joe also shares the practical implications: how leaders can ladder up from “jobs to be done” into deeper aspirations, why identity change sits at the center of transformation, and how pricing shifts when your business is accountable for outcomes.In this episode we cover:•Why transformations are “sustained through time,” not just memorable moments•The idea that all transformation is identity change (and what that means for strategy)•“You are what you charge for”: shifting from time-based pricing to outcome-based pricing•Why the Transformation Economy is already here (and why it’s accelerating now)•The four spheres of transformation—and why they all point toward human flourishing00:00 — Welcome + Episode Setup 01:36 — “If you really know me…” (Anti-social introvert)03:10 — Strategy = the decisions you actually make04:18 — Defining “Transformation” (guiding outcomes that last)06:06 — Experience vs Transformation (customer becomes the product)08:28 — Why the Transformation Economy is already here10:00 — Why now: experiences are commoditizing (Starbucks + COVID shift)13:16 — Identity change at the center of transformation17:46 — From “cobbling” to integrated transformation programs (GLP-1 / Calibrate)21:54 — Pricing in the Transformation Economy (outcomes + human flourishing)34:22 — Where to start + resources (encapsulation, purpose, Substack/toolkit)Additional Resources:Joe Pine’s Transformation Economy Substack: https://transformationsbook.substack.com/Strategic Horizons: https://strategichorizons.com/Strategic Horizons “Integration” page + Transformation Toolkit: https://strategichorizons.com/integrationJoe Pine on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joepine/Thank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Linda Hill is a Harvard Business School professor and one of the world’s leading thinkers on leadership and innovation. Jason Wild is the CEO and founder of WISE (Wild Innovation and Strategy Excellence) and a long-time innovation and strategy leader inside global incumbents. Together (with co-author Emily Tadards), they’ve spent more than a decade studying how established organizations actually turn innovation into something that scales—and distilled the lessons into their new book, Genius at Scale.  The core idea is simple, but uncomfortable: in a world shaped by AI, complexity, and accelerating change, innovation rarely succeeds as a solo act. The winners don’t just build better products—they build better ecosystems, with leaders who can co-create across boundaries (inside the enterprise and far beyond it).  In this conversation, Linda and Jason explain why ecosystems are becoming the true unit of innovation, why culture is an unfair advantage competitors can’t copy, and why the most essential innovation leaders are often the least visible. They walk through their ABC framework—leaders as Architects, Bridgers, and Catalysts—and what breaks when any one of those roles is missing.If you’re trying to move faster, partner smarter, and scale what works, this episode gives you a practical lens for leading through uncertainty, building the social fabric for innovation, and creating the kind of movement others choose to join.In this episode we cover:Why ecosystems (not firms) are becoming the unit of innovation—and what that changes for leadersThe ABC framework: Architect, Bridger, Catalyst (and how these roles show up in real organizations)Why “culture” is a competitive advantage—and how leaders accidentally undermine itThe underappreciated “bridger” role—and why org design and incentives often punish itPractical starting points: clarity of purpose, surfacing constraints, and creating faster learning loopsEpisode timeline:00:00 — Cold open: why no company can go it alone00:30 — Sponsor: LHH02:00 — “If you really know me…” (Linda + Jason)03:35 — Definitions of strategy (optionality, choices, and adaptability)08:40 — Why they wrote Genius at Scale12:30 — Why ecosystems are rising (speed, capability gaps, AI)17:00 — Can incumbents adopt an ecosystem approach?22:30 — ABC framework: Architect, Bridger, Catalyst28:40 — The most underappreciated role: the Bridger33:30 — Why bridging is a career risk (and how to fix incentives)41:45 — A practical tool: a “constraints dashboard” + radical transparency45:30 — Where leaders should start54:50 — How to keep learning from Linda + Jason59:20 — Closing + thanksAdditional Resources:Linda Hill: https://www.linkedin.com/in/linda-hill-hbs/Jason Wild: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonwild/Book: Genius at Scale — https://geniusatscale.com/Sponsor: LHH Executive Solutions — https://www.lhh.comThank you to our sponsor, LHHThank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Neil Hoyne is Chief Strategist at Google and one of the sharpest voices on how companies actually make decisions when data, intuition, and organizational politics collide. He works at the intersection of strategy, analytics, and customer value, helping leaders think more clearly about what metrics mean, how to use them, and where they can quietly mislead. He is also the author of Converted and is currently working on a new book exploring how strategy frameworks can be applied to careers and life decisions.Most leaders say they want to be data-driven. But in practice, many organizations still use data to confirm what they already believe, delay hard choices, or create the appearance of rigor without real clarity. At the same time, teams are drowning in more information than ever, while AI is making data gathering and analysis faster, cheaper, and easier to commoditize. The harder challenge now is not collecting data — it’s creating the conditions for better decisions.In this episode, we explore how strategy should be defined in an uncertain world, why customer-centric thinking changes the role of marketing, and how leaders can avoid mistaking metrics for truth. Neil also unpacks customer lifetime value (CLV), the hidden ways metrics get manipulated, and why many companies ask the wrong question when they say they want more data. We also discuss what strategists should focus on as AI changes the work, and why the future advantage may come from decision frameworks, not dashboards.In this episode we cover:•Neil’s practical definition of strategy: using resources to stay alive today while improving your position for tomorrow•Two definitions of marketing — product-centric vs customer-centric — and how the marketer’s role changes in each•What CLV actually is, why it matters, and how short time horizons distort strategic choices•Why common metrics (like conversions and engagement) often aren’t comparable across platforms•The two questions leaders should ask about every KPI: how it’s calculated and how it could be manipulated•Why smart leaders still ignore data, and how human psychology shapes decision-making•How to define “how much data is enough” before a decision•What chief strategy officers can do beyond the annual planning ritual•Why AI strategy should start with your company’s core strategy — not the other way aroundChapters:00:01 — Intro + Neil Hoyne03:10 — The “Last Supper” question08:10 — Misreading people’s career stories10:10 — Strategy definition16:40 — What marketing is21:05 — Customer-centric thinking24:10 — CLV basics30:10 — Why metrics mislead35:10 — How teams game KPIs39:20 — Why leaders ignore data52:00 — How much data is enough?1:01:20 — Risk, speed, and decisions1:07:20 — What strategy leaders should do1:18:10 — New book on careers1:25:10 — AI noise vs core strategy1:30:20 — ClosingAdditional Resources:•Neil Hoyne on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neilhoyne/•Neil Hoyne website: https://neilhoyne.com/•Converted (Neil Hoyne’s book): https://www.converted.us/•Intro (booking 1:1 time; proceeds to charity): https://intro.co/ (search Neil Hoyne on Intro)Thank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

John Fallon is the former CEO of Pearson, where he led one of the most challenging digital transformations of any publicly traded company—shifting a legacy publishing giant from selling ~20 million US college textbooks per year to a subscription-driven, digital platform business. This episode was recorded live at LHH’s Executive Exchange Conference in London, and John joins us to share hard-won leadership lessons from the front lines of disruption.For years we’ve been told only nimble startups survive disruption. But that story misses a quieter truth: most of the Fortune 500 was founded long before the internet—and many incumbents have adapted through multiple platform shifts. In his new book, Resurgent, John (with Julian Birkinshaw of London Business School) makes a contrarian case: established organizations can fight back—and even thrive—if they get clear on their enduring value, redesign for transformation, and lead change like the human “contact sport” it is.In this conversation, John breaks down why disruption often unfolds over decades (not months), how to separate a temporary headwind from a structural shift, and why identifying your company’s true “job to be done” matters more than clinging to any one product. He also shares practical leadership tools for navigating politics, building alignment, empowering middle managers, and sustaining people through prolonged upheaval.What you’ll learn in this episode•Why incumbents are often more resilient than we assume—and what the data says•How to spot the difference between “secular vs structural” change (and why timing is so hard)•The “job to be done” lens: how Pearson moved from textbooks to learning outcomes•Why digital transformation is less about tech and more about people, culture, and organizational design•How to reduce “the meeting after the meeting” and create real disagree-and-commit executionEpisode Timeline00:00 Welcome to Outthinkers + Live Special Episode Setup01:22 Why Incumbents Can Win: Pearson’s Transformation & the Book ‘Resurgent’05:30 Elephants Can Dance: Fortune 500 Resilience and the Myth of Instant Disruption09:10 Pearson’s Textbook Collapse: Secular vs Structural (and Recency Bias)11:33 From Textbooks to ‘Job to Be Done’: Purpose, Pricing, and the Access Model13:45 Crisis Clarifies Identity: Cancer, Core Value, and Avoiding ‘Netflix of X’ Thinking16:56 Making Purpose Real in Transformation: Profit, Restructuring, and Middle Managers as Shock Absorbers21:23 Why Digital Transformation Gets Political: Twin-Speed Orgs, Uncertain Disruption, and Staying ‘Busy Being Born’24:42 Why AI Transformation Is a Human Problem (Linear vs Exponential Change)26:05 CEO Time: Thinking Space, Contrarian Views & “Disagree and Commit”28:14 Avoiding the “Meeting After the Meeting”: How to Build Real Alignment30:17 Audience Q: Leading with Humility—Saying “I Don’t Know” & Showing Humanity34:08 Should You Take the CEO Job? Confidence, Humility, and Resilience Reserves36:49 Beyond the Burning Platform: Replatforming, Timing, and Centralize vs Decentralize41:18 CEO Sounding Boards: CFO/CHRO Partnerships, Board Support, and Staying Grounded43:35 Culture vs Strategy: The “False Dichotomy” and Building a Learning Organization45:47 Wrap-Up, Thanks, and SubscribeAdditional Resources•Resurgent (book): https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/resurgent-9781399422000/John Fallon on LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/johnfallonpearsonThank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Dr. Brent Ridge is the co-founder of Beekman 1802, a skin health brand that began with goat milk soap made at a dining room table and scaled into a nationally recognized business with a devoted community. Brent trained in medicine (geriatrics), built his career in New York City, and even helped launch Martha Stewart’s Healthy Living division—before a recession, a rundown farm, and a herd of goats rewrote his path. He’s also the co-author of G.O.A.T. Wisdom, a new book that distills Beekman’s hard-won lessons into practical principles for entrepreneurs who want to build something that lasts.In this conversation, you’ll learn how to spot real trends before they’re named, build a brand identity customers can feel in seconds, and turn a purpose like kindness into a measurable operating system—not just marketing.In this episode we cover:Why “the true measure of authenticity is longevity” (and how brands lose trust chasing viral moments)The Beekman origin story: layoffs, a farm, goats—and turning constraints into a strategy advantageA simple but powerful strategic question: “Where does this not exist?” (and how it opened the luxury door)Trend sensing without getting trapped by algorithms: building your own daily “signal system”How defining your company as “skin health” (not “beauty”) changes everything—from product to positioningTurning kindness into culture, community, and commercial momentum (inside the company and out)00:00 Introduction to Out Thinkers Podcast00:30 Defining Authenticity in Business01:23 Meet Dr. Brent Ridge: From Medicine to Entrepreneurship02:01 The Birth of Beekman 180202:36 Building a Brand with Kindness04:56 Early Life and Career of Dr. Brent Ridge07:02 Strategic Moves: From Medicine to Martha Stewart08:26 Launching the Martha Stewart Center for Living18:08 The Power of Personal Branding and Sales21:22 Navigating Trends and Building Legacy25:01 Seeing Trends in Unlikely Places26:30 The Birth of Beekman 180228:26 The Science Behind Goat Milk30:32 Rebranding as a Skin Health Company31:35 The Power of Brand Identity37:57 Building a Culture of Kindness40:43 The Kindness Ecosystem48:22 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsAdditional ResourcesBook: G.O.A.T. Wisdom (Brent Ridge)Beekman 1802: https://beekman1802.com/Brent Ridge on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brent-ridge-md-0641791/Kindness Research Foundation: https://www.kindness.orgThank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Jana Werner is a global executive advisor and Executive in Residence at Amazon Web Services, where she works with Fortune 500 leadership teams on organizational transformation and enterprise strategy. She holds a PhD in uncertainty dynamics in projects and has contributed to academic research and teaching at institutions including Oxford and the London School of Economics.Phil Le-Brun spent 31 years at McDonald’s, serving as International CIO and leading technology delivery across more than 120 countries. He is now an Executive in Residence at AWS, serving as an enterprise strategist and evangelist, with advanced degrees in systems thinking.Together, they are the authors of The Octopus Organization: A Guide to Thriving in a World of Continuous Transformation.Most large companies still operate like machines. Rigid hierarchies, tight controls, and permission-based decision making may deliver predictability, but they quietly kill ownership, learning, and innovation.By contrast, the most adaptive organizations operate more like living systems, distributing intelligence, empowering teams, and enabling continuous transformation. Companies like Amazon demonstrate how decentralization, clarity, and ownership can create alignment rather than chaos.This episode explores how leaders can replace command-and-control structures with environments where innovation becomes everyone’s job.In this episode we coverWhy the “organization as a machine” model is breaking downThe Octopus Organization metaphor and distributed intelligence in actionHow clarity and context enable decentralized decision-makingOwnership vs permission and the pigs-and-chickens lessonWhy real innovation must be embedded across every layer of the organizationHow curiosity and intelligent failure drive continuous transformationEpisode Timeline00:00 Highlight and introduction to the Octopus Organization02:00 Guest introductions and background04:30 If you really know me… personal stories from Jana and Phil07:40 Defining strategy as choice and what not to do10:00 Tin Man vs Octopus organizations13:30 How decentralization increases alignment16:00 Ownership, permission, and single-threaded leadership20:00 Amazon leadership principles and disagree-and-commit22:30 Creating organizational clarity at scale26:00 Focus, subtraction, and the mountaineering story28:30 Durable needs and strategy at Amazon30:30 Complicated vs complex systems in transformation33:00 Curiosity, experimentation, and intelligent failure36:00 The monkey-on-a-pedestal lesson38:00 Centralized vs decentralized innovation41:00 Lighting a thousand fires and continuous transformation44:00 Why this model outperforms traditional change programs45:30 Where to learn more and connect with the authorsAdditional ResourcesBook: The Octopus OrganizationWebsite: https://www.theoctopusorganization.comJana Werner LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janawerner1/Phil LeBrun LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phillebrun/Watch now on Youtube: https://youtu.be/qcD2GmX5uUIThank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Mark Thompson is a CEO coach and author of CEO Ready. Born and raised in Silicon Valley and now working across emerging tech hubs, Mark prepares leaders for the leap from elite operator to enterprise chief. He’s worked with CEOs ranging from Richard Branson and Evan Sharp (co-founder of Pinterest) to Dr. Jim Yong Kim (former president of the World Bank) and Dave Chang (founder of Momofuku).Most executives assume the CEO seat is the natural “next step” for the highest performer. But Mark argues you earn readiness twice: first by delivering results, and then by winning belief outside your swim lane. In other words, performance gets you shortlisted—but it doesn’t get you selected.In this episode, Mark lays out the seven stakeholders who decide your fate as a CEO candidate (the board, investors/owners, peers, employees, customers, the current CEO, and you). We talk about what each group actually wants, how to build trust across the enterprise, and why the best CEO candidates develop “conversational fluency” across functions so they can lead beyond their lane.In this episode we cover:•Why “elite performance” only gets you halfway to CEO—and what earns belief the second time•The seven stakeholders who decide CEO readiness (and how to build a plan for each one)•How to show up to the board as more than a functional expert•Turning peers into partners (before the role forces the shift)•Building fluency across functions so you can lead the whole enterprise—not just your functionEpisode Timeline:00:00 Introduction to Outthinkers Podcast01:23 Meet Mark Thompson: CEO Coach and Author02:06 The Seven Stakeholders of CEO Success02:42 Mark's Unique Coaching Methods04:10 Personal Insights and Strategy Definition06:30 The Reality of Becoming a CEO08:58 Navigating Board Dynamics20:57 Interacting with the Board: Key Strategies for Aspiring CEOs21:28 Listening and Broadening Your Perspective22:44 Understanding the Role of Strategy Officers26:36 Navigating Peer Dynamics and Leadership Transition33:03 Building Relationships with the CEO35:44 Engaging with Investors and Owners39:56 The Importance of Customer Influence44:17 Final Thoughts and Resources for Aspiring CEOsAdditional Resources:•Mark Thompson: Chief Executive Alliance — https://chieexecutivealliance.comWatch now on Youtube: https://youtu.be/wuh4Rn7erxUThank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Bill George is one of the most influential leadership thinkers of our time. A former CEO of Medtronic and long-time Harvard Business School professor, he’s served on the boards of Goldman Sachs, ExxonMobil, Novartis, and the Mayo Clinic. His books including True North and True North: Emerging Leader Edition—have shaped how thousands of leaders approach purpose, values, and character.When performance pressure rises, it’s easy for leaders to drift from their values chasing quarterly metrics, external validation, and “style” over substance. Bill argues the opposite: sustainable performance springs from purpose, self-awareness, and a culture people believe in. We explore how to stay grounded as expectations, visibility, and success scale.You’ll learn how authentic leaders make the hard calls without becoming “nice at the expense of necessary,” choose metrics that drive meaning (not gaming), and build teams that keep you honest, learning, and aligned.In this episode we cover:•Authentic leadership: what it is and isn’t•Purpose-first strategy•The Medtronic metric: measuring outcomes people feel, not just inputs•Making tough people & portfolio decisions without losing your values•Building your leadership circle for honest feedback & growth•Short-term vs. long-term: preventing KPI gaming and hollow winsEpisode Timeline00:00 Introduction to Outthinkers Podcast00:35 Bill George on Medtronic's Impact01:40 Bill George's Leadership Journey05:00 Defining Strategy and Purpose10:32 Authentic Leadership Explained12:45 Challenges and Examples of Leadership16:04 Personal Growth and Leadership20:53 Developing Self-Awareness as a Leader22:15 Facing Crucibles: Overcoming Tough Times23:47 Exercises for Self-Discovery25:33 The Power of Small Groups27:32 Long-Standing Support Systems29:28 Assessing Leadership Values33:01 Effective Metrics for Leadership39:56 Engaging with Bill GeorgeAdditional Resources•Bill George — Website: https://www.billgeorge.org•LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamwgeorge/•Book: True North: Emerging Leader Edition•Book: True North•Kaihan Krippendorff: https://www.outthinker.comThank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Join Jon Levy, a behavioral scientist and author, as he delves into the secrets of high-performing teams. He explains that the smallest unit of performance is the team, debunking the myth that star players guarantee success. Discover the concept of 'glue players'—team-first multipliers who enhance performance. Levy emphasizes the importance of culture as an operating system and the power of clear communication patterns. Trust, not just individual traits, drives team effectiveness, and he provides strategies for making implicit skills explicit.

Christina Farr, an investor and former health-tech journalist, discusses the power of storytelling in business. She reveals how narratives can outperform data in attracting investors and customers. Christina introduces her SOAP framework—Surprise, Openness, Authenticity, and Pathos—designed to craft compelling messages. The conversation dives into classic narrative plots like the 'David vs. Goliath' story and shares real-world examples from Apple and Tesla. She emphasizes effective origin stories and the impact of storytelling on company culture and strategy.