Many Minds

Greetings all—and a warm welcome back for another episode! Today's show is a conversation with Daniel Oberhaus. Daniel is a staff writer for Wired magazine and the author of the book Extraterrestrial Languages, published by MIT Press in 2019. The book charts the history of humanity's efforts at "interstellar communication"—our attempts to send messages to the stars in the hopes that alien life forms might receive them. Daniel and I talk about what these messages have contained, what forms they've taken, and the thinking and theories behind them. As you might guess, the history of interstellar communication is packed full of colorful episodes, charismatic characters, and quirky passion projects. But it's also full of deep questions—questions about the very nature of communication, about the essence of human language, about why minds think in the ways they do, about the origins of mathematics, about what can and should be said on behalf of our species—or our planet. Apologies for the long list, but there really is a lot in play here—we touch on a bunch of it but for the fuller story, I definitely recommend you check out Daniel's book. Thank you so much for joining us, as always. Enjoy and take care! A transcript of this interview is available here. Notes and links Most of the topics we discuss are treated in detail in Daniel Oberhaus's book, Extraterrestrial Languages. 2:38 – In 1960 the mathematician Hans Freudenthal published a book called Lincos: Design of a Language for Cosmic Intercourse. Here is Daniel's original article profiling Freudenthal and his ideas. 5:08 – There were a number of fanciful early schemes for communicating with aliens. For example, Carl Friedrich Gauss, better known for his contributions to mathematics, reportedly proposed building a large right triangle as a kind of message. 10:30 – The Arecibo message was devised and sent by Frank Drake and Carl Sagan in 1974. 11:25 – Two important acronyms in this world: the search for extraterrestrial life (SETI) and messaging extraterrestrial life (METI). 14:40 – In case you need a refresher on what an exoplanet is—as I did—here is a place to start. 20:38 – For more on the idea of Mathematical Platonism, see this article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. A few alternatives to Mathematical Platonism have been proposed, including the theories of Embodied Mathematics put forward by George Lakoff & Rafael Núñez in Where Mathematics Comes From. 27:00 – A brief survey of the different numeral base systems used in across human languages. 28:30 – For a bit about John Lilly, read his obituary or see this article on his role in SETI. Lilly promoted the idea that communicating with aliens might be akin to communicating with dolphins. 30:50 – Another analogy: decoding alien messages might be like decoding ancient scripts like Linear B. 34:20 – For more on the dolphin whistle research we discuss, see here. 36:16 – Noam Chomsky's idea that recursion is a key—perhaps the key feature—of human language is controversial. For discussion of this claim—and an equally controversial rejection of it—see this article. 37:50 – For examples of the communication abilities of Koko the gorilla, see here. Koko died in 2018. 44:45 – See here for more about the Pioneer Plaques, and here for more about the Golden Voyager Record. 48:30 – Here is a list of the musical recordings that were included on the Golden Voyager Record. 51:20 – For more about the Cosmic Call messages, see here. 53:10 – The controversial Pioneer Plaque image. 56:49 – The website for METI International. 1:03:30 – The 2015 announcement of a $100 million donation to fund SETI research is discussed here. Daniel Oberhaus's end-of-show recommendations: Intelligent Life in the Universe, by I.S. Shklovskii and Carl Sagan Communication with Extraterrestrial Intelligence, edited by Carl Sagan The best way to keep up with Daniel is on Twitter @DMOberhaus. His personal website is: http://www.danieloberhaus.com/ Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://www.diverseintelligencessummer.com/), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted by Kensy Cooperrider, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster, and Associate Director Hilda Loury. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play—or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

This podcast explores the concept of umwelt theory, which suggests that every species has its own unique way of sensing and experiencing the world. It discusses Jacob von Uexküll's influential work and its continued relevance today. The podcast delves into examples of animals and their private worlds, as well as the interface theory of perception, which emphasizes the variation of reality and meaning across species.

Welcome back! Today's episode is a conversation with Cristine Legare. Cristine is a Professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. Her research focuses on how our minds allow us to do culture—to learn it, to create it, and to pass it on. Among other things, we talk about cumulative culture and the human capacities for imitation and innovation. We talk about the power of ritual and about thorny questions surrounding human uniqueness. We touch on work that Cristine and her team have done in Vanuatu. And we muse about the problems facing psychology—in particular the so-called WEIRD problem. For those who may not know, this is the issue of psychologists unduly focusing on a thin slice of humanity—namely, Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic (WEIRD) folks. I found Cristine's perspective on this issue—and really on all these issues—super insightful. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Dr. Cristine Legare. Hope you enjoy it! And please be well. A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 2:35 – An article about "cumulative culture." 3:25 –There is debate about whether any non-human animals show evidence of cumulative culture. Here is one review of the topic. 6:30 – A paper by Dr. Legare and a colleague on imitation and innovation as "dual engines of cultural learning." 10:53 – One of Dr. Legare's studies examining children's flexible understanding of when to imitate faithfully. 13:07 – A popular article about the puzzle of why chimps in Zambia started to put grass in their ears. The primary research was reported here. 14:25 – The literature on so-called "over-imitation" is substantial. Here is a recent review. 19:14 – An encyclopedia article by Dr. Legare and a colleague on ritual. See also their paper on the social functions of rituals. 25:45 – Here is the original paper report on the "illusion of explanatory depth." 28:42 – A paper on how a culture's history of migration affects how often its members smile. 34:45 – This article describes the puzzle of chimpanzees throwing rocks at trees. 40:18 – This paper by Joe Henrich and colleagues is the source of the acronym WEIRD—that is, Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic—and is one of the most cited and discussed papers in the last decade of psychology. Here is a recent popular article on the current state of the WEIRD problem. Finally, see this paper by Dr. Legare and colleagues about the WEIRD bias in developmental psychology. 49:00 – Dr. Legare has done a number of studies in Vanuatu, a culturally diverse archipelago in the South Pacific. 49:32 – A study by Dr. Legare and colleagues comparing triadic interactions in the US and in Vanuatu. 55:51 – Barbara Rogoff, mentioned here, has done a range of important work on learning styles across cultures. See, for example, her book, The Cultural Nature of Human Development. 59:55 – A study by Dr. Legare and colleagues showing that adults in the US and Vanuatu differ in how they evaluate the intelligence of conforming vs non-conforming children. Dr. Legare's end-of-show recommendations: A good summary of some of the research we discussed by Dr. Legare and her colleagues can be found here. See also the following books: The Secret of Our Success (2018), by Joe Henrich Cognitive Gadgets (2018), by Cecilia Heyes A Different Kind of Animal (2018), by Robert Boyd Minds Make Societies (2018), by Pascal Boyer The best ways to keep up with Dr. Legare's research: http://www.cristinelegare.com/ Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://www.diverseintelligencessummer.com/), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted by Kensy Cooperrider, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster, and Associate Director Hilda Loury. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play—or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

Welcome to our next 'Mini Minds' installment! As I mentioned before, we're still figuring out what we want this format to be, so you can expect a bit of tinkering over the coming months. Our first mini was a short audio blogpost of sorts, and today's mini is a mini interview. I chatted with Matt Crosby. He's a postdoc at Imperial College London and has been spearheading a super cool project called the Animal AI Olympics. (If you recall, this is something that Marta Halina and I touched on briefly in our last episode, but it seemed intriguing enough to merit a longer look.) The basic idea behind the project, as Matt and I discuss, was to have a bunch of artificial agents—submitted by teams from around the world—compete in a gauntlet of tests. The wrinkle was that these weren't the kinds of tests usually given to artificial systems. They were tests usually given to animals: some involved avoiding obstacles; others involved remembering locations; still others involved solving physical puzzles, like the celebrated "trap tube" task. This all sounds like good fun—and no doubt it was. But there were also deeper motivations for the project. Matt and I talk about those. We also talk a bit about how the contestants performed, about whether he was impressed, and about his team's plans for the next iteration of the Olympics, to be held in 2021. Enjoy the mini—and thanks for listening! A transcript of this interview is available here. Notes and links 2:23 – An article by Dr. Crosby and colleagues about the Animal AI Olympics and the motivations behind it. 3:45 – An article about recent successes in getting AIs to play Atari games. 5:45 – For details about the Animal AI environment and the types of tasks use, see here. 8:28 – A little more about object permanence. 12:48 – Variants of the "trap tube" task have been widely used in animal cognition research. Here's an example of a paper using it in apes, and here is a video of a dog attempting this kind of task. 14:15 – A blogpost announcing the results of the competition. For more info about the Animal AI Olympics, check out: http://www.animalaiolympics.com/ For more about Matt Crosby and his work, see: https://www.mdcrosby.com/ @MaCroPhilosophy Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://www.diverseintelligencessummer.com/), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted by Kensy Cooperrider, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster, and Associate Director Hilda Loury. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play—or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

Welcome back! Our guest today is Marta Halina, a University Lecturer (Assistant Professor) in the Department of History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Cambridge. Marta's current focus is the philosophy of artificial intelligence. We discuss what philosophers can contribute to AI. We talk about AlphaGo and its stunning defeat of one of the world's most celebrated Go champions. We puzzle over whether artificial minds can think creatively. (We also touch briefly on a project that Marta has been involved in called the Animal AI Olympics. Consider this part of our conversation a teaser—our next 'mini' episode is going to take a longer look at this initiative.) Marta brings a distinctive perspective to all these issues. As you'll hear, she's worked on great ape minds as well as artificial minds, and she's run scientific experiments in addition to her philosophical work. As always, thanks for listening—we hope you enjoy the conversation. A transcript of this interview can be found here. Notes and links 8:45 – The key distinction between artificial general intelligence (AGI) and artificial narrow intelligence (ANI). 10:25 – AlphaGo's victory against Go master Lee Sedol. 12:00 – More about Go. 15:57 – Lee Sedol announces his retirement. 17:00 – An article by Marta Halina and colleagues describing the Animal AI Olympics. (Stay tuned for our upcoming "mini" episode about this!) 23:05 – Demis Hassabis is the CEO and co-founder of DeepMind. You can listen to an interview with him here. 26:45 – On the idea that creative ideas are new, surprising, and valuable, see this collection of essays. 28:45 – A blogpost on DeepMind's system AlphaFold, part of its effort to develop AIs that support scientific discovery. 30:32 – For Margaret Boden's distinction between P-creativity and H-creativity, see this article (or this book). 35:45 - An article about Stephen Hawking's 2016 presentation at the launch of the Leverhulme Center for the Future of Intelligence. 38:54 – A paper by Henry Shevlin and Marta Halina in which they argue that, in the context of AI, "rich psychological terms" ought to be used with care. 46:15 – The mission statement of the Society for the Philosophy of Science in Practice. Dr. Halina's end-of-show recommendations: What is This Thing Called Science? (1976), by Alan Chalmers The Meaning of Science (2016), by Tim Lewens Kinds of Minds (2008), by Daniel Dennett The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on Artificial Intelligence The best ways to keep up with Dr. Halina's research: https://www.martahalina.com/ @MartaHalina Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://www.diverseintelligencessummer.com/), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted by Kensy Cooperrider, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster, and Associate Director Hilda Loury. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play—or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

Welcome to our second episode—and our very first installment of Mini Minds! Mini Minds is a short, snack-sized format that will alternate with our longer conversations. Today's Mini is a primer on the mirror self-recognition test. This is a classic paradigm in comparative psychology—and, as we'll see, it continues to generate both results and criticism. Thanks for listening, and we hope you enjoy the mini format! A text version of this "mini" is readable here. Notes and links 2:58 – Wilhelm Preyer's observations on ducks. 3:15 – Wolfgang Kohler's The Mentality of Apes. 3:33 – The original mirror test study by Gordon Gallup. 6:09 – Frans de Waal's 2019 paper, offering a gradualist perspective on self-awareness in animals. 6:45 – Alexandra Horowitz's 2017 paper, innovating an olfactory version of the mirror test for use in dogs. 8:56 – A recent study correlating brain structures in chimps with their performance on the mirror test. 9:05 – A recent study correlating chimps' performance on the mirror test with other measures of their social cognition abilities. The research surrounding the mirror test is truly vast—much vaster than could be covered in a short episode. Here are a couple recommendation for further reading: A recent Aeon essay by Virgina Morell A popular article about a recent finding of mirror self-recognition in the wrasse fish Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://www.diverseintelligencessummer.com/), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted by Kensy Cooperrider, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster and Associate Director Hilda Loury. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

Welcome to our first full-length episode! The guest for our inaugural interview is Dr. Andrew Barron, a neuroethologist at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia. (In case you're wondering what a neuroethologist is, don't' worry, we get to that.) Andrew specializes in honey bees. He studies their minute brains, their natural behaviors, and their remarkable cognitive abilities. We probably don't have to tell you that bees are cool. Humans have been fascinated with them for centuries. But one thing that makes Andrews's work especially cool is how it sheds light on questions that are bigger than bees—questions about how minds work, about how brains support conscious experience, about learning and memory, and a lot else. As you may have heard, bees have seen better days—like so much else in our natural world, they're starting to show signs of stress. We talk about that, too. Thanks for listening, and we hope you enjoy the conversation. A transcript of this interview can be found here. Notes and links 7:30 – A very brief introduction to honey bee dance communication. A more in-depth introduction. 11:15 – A paper by Andrew Barron and Colin Klein on consciousness in the animal kingdom, including which species have it and which don't. See also this popular write-up. 12:11 – A paper by Bjorn Merker about the role of the midbrain in supporting conscious awareness. 26:30 – A connectome is a map of neural connections. 32:00 – A popular article about new 3d maps of the insect brain. A new pre-print that includes some of the latest maps of the Drosophila brain. 33:55 – Thomas Nagel's classic paper, 'What is it like to be a bat?' 38:30 – Bees are able to navigate using polarized light. 41:00 – A popular article by Andrew Barron on bees' ability to discriminate between art styles. Barron's demonstration builds on the earlier studies by Judith Reinhard and colleagues. 54:05 – A recent paper that summarizes our understanding of cephalopod brains. 54:40 – The word "sessile" means fixed in one place, like a barnacle. 56:35 – A paper by Andrew Barron and colleagues on bees and environmental stress. See also this popular article covering similar issues. Dr. Barron's end-of-show recommendations: Honeybee Democracy (2010), by Thomas D. Seeley The Wisdom of the Hive (1996), by Thomas D. Seeley The Evolution of the Sensitive Soul (2019), by Simona Ginsburg and Eva Jablonka Other Minds (2017), by Peter Godfrey-Smith The best way to keep up with Dr. Barron's research: http://andrewbarron.org/ Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://www.diverseintelligencessummer.com/), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted by Kensy Cooperrider, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster, and Associate Director Hilda Loury. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, Overcast—or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

Welcome to 'Many Minds,' a podcast about the curious ways that mind manifests—in humans, animals, and machines. We spotlight the findings, theories, and phenomena that are changing how we think about minds. A text version of this episode is available here.