80,000 Hours Podcast #208 – Elizabeth Cox on the case that TV shows, movies, and novels can improve the world
Elizabeth Cox, founder of Should We Studio and former TED-Ed producer, advocates for storytelling as a powerful tool for societal change. She discusses how different media formats, like TV and animation, can effectively tackle complex issues. The conversation touches on storytelling's impact on public perception, especially regarding topics like climate change and ethical dilemmas. They also explore the implications of AI on creativity, the importance of audience engagement, and insights from her animated series 'Ada' that addresses transformative technologies.
02:22:03
"Ada"'s Target Audience
- Elizabeth Cox defines "Ada"'s target audience as curious people, especially young adults.
- She believes focusing too much on target audiences can hinder creative choices.
Subtle Messaging
- Create impactful shows by making them popular first, then subtly weaving in messages.
- Avoid being preachy to maintain broader appeal and engagement.
Educational Storytelling
- Overtly educational content can be effective if it doesn't hide its intentions.
- Kim Stanley Robinson's "The Ministry for the Future" exemplifies this approach.
Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode
Get the app 1 chevron_right 2 chevron_right 3 chevron_right 4 chevron_right 5 chevron_right 6 chevron_right 7 chevron_right 8 chevron_right 9 chevron_right 10 chevron_right 11 chevron_right 12 chevron_right 13 chevron_right 14 chevron_right 15 chevron_right
Intro
00:00 • 3min
The Power of Storytelling in Society
02:53 • 19min
Navigating Creativity in the Age of AI
21:55 • 11min
Exploring the Animated Series 'Ada' and Its Engaging Narrative Approach
33:07 • 3min
Navigating Creative Vision and Audience Engagement
35:59 • 24min
Exploring the Depths of Storytelling
59:56 • 21min
The Transformative Power of Stories
01:21:17 • 12min
Crafting Ada: Inspiration, Character Development, and a Literary Setting
01:33:25 • 5min
Exploring Sensory Environments in Dystopia and Animation
01:38:12 • 2min
Navigating Animation Production Challenges
01:40:25 • 13min
Media's Role in Ethical Discourse
01:52:55 • 13min
Exploring Uncharted Concepts in Cognitive Enhancement and Intergalactic Life
02:05:34 • 2min
Navigating Content Distribution Challenges
02:07:12 • 4min
Navigating Creative Careers
02:11:32 • 6min
Rethinking Story Engagement
02:17:03 • 5min
#2049
• Mentioned in 21 episodes
Trick Mirror
Reflection on Self-delusion
Juan Trejo
Jia Tolentino
Trick Mirror: Reflections on Self-Delusion is a New York Times-bestselling book of essays by Jia Tolentino.
The book delves into various aspects of modern life, including identity, culture, and the human condition.
Tolentino examines topics such as the sexual revolution, social media, and the complexities of personal identity, offering insightful and thought-provoking reflections on the world we live in today.
#383
• Mentioned in 75 episodes
The Precipice
Existential Risk and the Future of Humanity
Toby Ord
In this book, Toby Ord argues that humanity is in a uniquely dangerous period, which he terms 'the Precipice,' beginning with the first atomic bomb test in 1945.
Ord examines various existential risks, including natural and anthropogenic threats, and estimates that there is a one in six chance of humanity suffering an existential catastrophe within the next 100 years.
He advocates for a major reorientation in how we see the world and our role in it, emphasizing the need for collective action to minimize these risks and ensure a safe future for humanity.
The book integrates insights from multiple disciplines, including physics, biology, earth science, computer science, history, anthropology, statistics, international relations, and moral philosophy.
#243
• Mentioned in 99 episodes
Silent Spring
Rachel Carson
Published in 1962, 'Silent Spring' by Rachel Carson is a seminal work in environmental science.
The book documents the harmful effects of DDT and other pesticides on the environment, including their impact on bird populations, other wildlife, and human health.
Carson argued that these substances should be called 'biocides' due to their broad impact on ecosystems.
The book was serialized in 'The New Yorker' before its full publication and generated significant public and scientific debate.
It led to a reversal in U.S.
pesticide policy, the banning of DDT for agricultural use in 1972, and the establishment of the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency in 1970.
Carson's work challenged the prevailing attitudes towards scientific progress and human control over nature, advocating for responsible and careful use of pesticides and highlighting the need for environmental stewardship.
#781
• Mentioned in 44 episodes
The Age of Surveillance Capitalism
The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power
Shoshana Zuboff
In this book, Shoshana Zuboff provides a comprehensive analysis of surveillance capitalism, a new economic order where corporations accumulate vast wealth and power by predicting and controlling human behavior.
Zuboff details how this form of capitalism, originating in Silicon Valley, has spread into every economic sector, creating 'behavioral futures markets' where predictions about our behavior are bought and sold.
She argues that this system, free from democratic oversight, poses significant threats to democracy, freedom, and human future, and urges readers to take action to protect their autonomy in the digital world.
#75524
The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and Other Clinical Tales
Oliver Sacks
This book tells the stories of individuals afflicted with perceptual and intellectual disorders.
It includes cases such as a man with visual agnosia who mistook his wife for a hat, patients with severe memory loss, and those with unusual talents despite significant cognitive impairments.
Sacks' narratives are sympathetic and deeply human, highlighting the struggles and adaptations of his patients against incredible adversity.
The book explores the complex interplay between different parts of the brain and the ethical and philosophical issues that arise in neurology.
#80
• Mentioned in 200 episodes
The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy
Douglas Adams
The book follows Arthur Dent, an ordinary Englishman, whose house and planet are about to be demolished.
He is rescued by his friend Ford Prefect, an alien researcher for the 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'.
Together, they embark on a journey through space, encountering various characters such as Zaphod Beeblebrox, the two-headed, three-armed president of the galaxy, Trillian, a human woman, and Marvin, a paranoid android.
The story involves their adventures on the spaceship Heart of Gold, which has an Infinite Improbability Drive, and their quest to understand the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything, which is revealed to be '42'.
The novel is known for its humor, satire, and imaginative storytelling.
#427
• Mentioned in 68 episodes
The Ministry for the Future
Kim Stanley Robinson
The Ministry for the Future is a novel by Kim Stanley Robinson that delves into the urgent issue of climate change.
Set in the near future, the story follows the establishment of a UN agency, the Ministry for the Future, whose mission is to advocate for the rights of future generations.
The novel is told through multiple perspectives, including those of Mary Murphy, the head of the Ministry, and Frank May, an American aid worker who survives a devastating heat wave in India.
The book explores various innovative solutions to climate change, such as the introduction of a new currency called 'carboni' to incentivize decarbonization, and it presents a hopeful yet realistic vision of how humanity might cooperate to mitigate the effects of climate change.
The narrative includes a mix of fictional eyewitness accounts, non-fiction descriptions, and diverse writing styles, reflecting the complexity and urgency of the climate crisis.
#41
• Mentioned in 267 episodes
Moby Dick
Herman Melville
Moby-Dick is a novel that tells the story of Captain Ahab's maniacal quest for revenge against Moby Dick, the giant white sperm whale that bit off his leg.
Narrated by Ishmael, the story follows the crew of the whaling ship Pequod as they embark on a journey that explores themes of obsession, man vs.
nature, and the existential questions of good and evil.
The novel is rich in detailed descriptions of whale hunting and life aboard a culturally diverse crew, and it has become a cornerstone of American and world literature.
#2618
• Mentioned in 17 episodes
The Andromeda Strain
Michael Crichton
The novel begins with a military satellite crashing in northern Arizona, leading to the deaths of nearly all the inhabitants of the nearby town of Piedmont.
Only two survivors are found: an old man and a baby.
A team of scientists, part of Project Wildfire, is dispatched to investigate the cause of the deaths and to contain the threat.
They discover an alien organism, the Andromeda Strain, which has lethal effects on humans by clotting their blood.
As the scientists delve deeper, they find that the organism mutates into a form that no longer harms humans but begins to eat through rubber and plastic.
The story culminates in a race against time to prevent a catastrophic breach of the containment facility and the potential spread of the organism.
#45
• Mentioned in 257 episodes
Atlas Shrugged
Ayn Rand
Published in 1957, 'Atlas Shrugged' is Ayn Rand's magnum opus and her longest novel.
The story is set in a dystopian United States where increasingly burdensome laws and regulations strangle innovation and productivity.
The plot follows Dagny Taggart, a railroad executive, and Hank Rearden, a steel magnate, as they struggle against 'looters' who exploit their work.
A mysterious figure named John Galt leads a strike of productive individuals, persuading them to abandon their companies and disappear.
The novel culminates with Galt's three-hour radio speech explaining his philosophy of Objectivism, which emphasizes rational self-interest, individual rights, and the importance of the human mind.
The book explores themes of capitalism, property rights, and the failures of governmental coercion, presenting a provocative vision of a society in collapse and the potential for a new capitalist society based on Galt's principles.
"I think stories are the way we shift the Overton window — so widen the range of things that are acceptable for policy and palatable to the public. Almost by definition, a lot of things that are going to be really important and shape the future are not in the Overton window, because they sound weird and off-putting and very futuristic. But I think stories are the best way to bring them in." — Elizabeth Cox
In today’s episode, Keiran Harris speaks with Elizabeth Cox — founder of the independent production company Should We Studio — about the case that storytelling can improve the world.
Links to learn more, highlights, and full transcript.
They cover:
- How TV shows and movies compare to novels, short stories, and creative nonfiction if you’re trying to do good.
- The existing empirical evidence for the impact of storytelling.
- Their competing takes on the merits of thinking carefully about target audiences.
- Whether stories can really change minds on deeply entrenched issues, or whether writers need to have more modest goals.
- Whether humans will stay relevant as creative writers with the rise of powerful AI models.
- Whether you can do more good with an overtly educational show vs other approaches.
- Elizabeth’s experience with making her new five-part animated show Ada — including why she chose the topics of civilisational collapse, kidney donations, artificial wombs, AI, and gene drives.
- The pros and cons of animation as a medium.
- Career advice for creative writers.
- Keiran’s idea for a longtermist Christmas movie.
- And plenty more.
Material you might want to check out before listening:
- The trailer for Elizabeth’s new animated series Ada — the full series will be available on TED-Ed’s YouTube channel in early January 2025
- Keiran’s pilot script and a 10-episode outline for his show Bequest, and his post about the show on the Effective Altruism Forum
Chapters:
- Cold open (00:00:00)
- Luisa's intro (00:01:04)
- The interview begins (00:02:52)
- Is storytelling really a high-impact career option? (00:03:26)
- Empirical evidence of the impact of storytelling (00:06:51)
- How storytelling can inform us (00:16:25)
- How long will humans stay relevant as creative writers? (00:21:54)
- Ada (00:33:05)
- Debating the merits of thinking about target audiences (00:38:03)
- Ada vs other approaches to impact-focused storytelling (00:48:18)
- Why animation (01:01:06)
- One Billion Christmases (01:04:54)
- How storytelling can humanise (01:09:34)
- But can storytelling actually change strongly held opinions? (01:13:26)
- Novels and short stories (01:18:38)
- Creative nonfiction (01:25:06)
- Other promising ways of storytelling (01:30:53)
- How did Ada actually get made? (01:33:23)
- The hardest part of the process for Elizabeth (01:48:28)
- Elizabeth’s hopes and dreams for Ada (01:53:10)
- Designing Ada with an eye toward impact (01:59:16)
- Alternative topics for Ada (02:05:33)
- Deciding on the best way to get Ada in front of people (02:07:12)
- Career advice for creative writers (02:11:31)
- Wikipedia book spoilers (02:17:05)
- Luisa's outro (02:20:42)
Producer: Keiran Harris
Audio engineering: Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong
Content editing: Luisa Rodriguez, Katy Moore, and Keiran Harris
Transcriptions: Katy Moore