Paul VanderKlay's Podcast Jonathan Pageau Tries to Provoke a Copernican Revolution on Kindly Atheist
Mar 11, 2026
Justin Brierley, interviewer and moderator known for thoughtful dialogues. Jonathan Pageau, Orthodox icon carver and public intellectual who explores symbolism and patterns. They discuss symbolism vs materialism. They explore patterns, vertical causality, how rituals and icons form meaning, and whether institutions can act as transpersonal agents.
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Whole First Vision Beats Materialist Bottom Up
- Jonathan Pageau inverts the modern materialist view by making the whole (patterns/unity) primary and the parts secondary.
- He frames perception as pattern-recognition pointing toward a unity (the Logos/God) rather than assembly from inert parts.
Pay Attention To Theological Frames When Reading Scripture
- When reading scripture, notice your inherited theological frame because it dramatically shapes interpretation.
- Vanderklay shows how Protestants see substitutionary atonement in sacrificial texts while Church Fathers see symbolic two natures of Christ.
Salience Landscapes Shape What We See
- Pageau argues humans apprehend and act through hierarchical, top-down 'salience landscapes' that make certain features visible and others invisible.
- Paul Vanderklay links this to iconography and orthodoxy as traditions that cultivate a coherent, unified way of seeing the world.
