What Matters Most "Interfaith is not about Conversion, it's about Completion": A Conversation with the Interfaith Amigos
Welcome to What Matters Most. On this episode I speak with the Interfaith Amigos, who are Imam Jamal Rahman, Pastor Don MacKenzie, and Rabbi Laura Duhan-Kaplan. Rabbi Laura replaced the recently retired Rabbi Ted Falcon as a part of this interfaith trio. When you listen to the episode you will notice that I did not start with saying, "A Rabbi, an Imam, and a Minister walk into a bar..." This is either a missed opportunity or a sign of great restraint on my part. They did however come into a terrific Zoom session and a wonderful podcast resulted.
The podcast was recorded on the traditional, ancestral, and unceded territory of the xwməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam) People. We are thankful for their welcome to us so that we can live, learn, and pray on their land.
It has been a while since I have released an episode due to our Pope Francis conference in early May, which was a smashing success, and the death of my father John Martens on May 18 at the age of 92, a couple of weeks prior to his 93rd birthday on June 5. Death and funerals certainly turn one’s mind and heart to What Matters Most.
This is our final episode for the year, though I will re-release episodes during July and August. I also hope to be taping episodes in July and August to be released in September.
Now let me turn to our podcast. I think many people will find this episode challenging, as it asks serious questions about the nature of religious traditions, beliefs, practices, and scriptures. What’s at the heart of a religious tradition? What are core teachings? What’s the purpose of a religion? Must a religion be exclusive? How inclusive should or can a religion be before it is not one’s own tradition?
Who are the (original) Interfaith Amigos?
Imam Jamal Rahman, Pastor Don Mackenzie, and Rabbi Ted Falcon taught together starting in 2001 until Ted's recent retirement, speaking and leading workshops in the United States and Israel-Palestine. Jamal's personal experience as a Muslim after 9/11 moved him to share more of the substance of Islam. Ted stepped more visibly into the larger community, teaching how a healing spirituality emerges within Judaism. Don concluded his position as minister of University Congregational UCC to devote more time focusing on the ways a true spirituality supports us in bringing healing to our world.
Together they have explored an inclusive spirituality to promote healing that expresses as concrete environmental, social, and political action. They brought and bring a message of deep hope and profound possibilities for healing on both a personal level and a planetary level. Their work comprises a dialogue of the mind, the heart, and the hands, encouraging greater understanding, compassion, and social action in the world. For more on the group, please see this old New York Times article about the group.
Their book, Getting to the Heart of Interfaith: The Eye-opening, Hope-filled Friendship of a Pastor, a Rabbi, and a an Imam, was released in July 2009 by Skylight Paths. Additional books include, Religion Gone Astray: What We Found at the Heart of Interfaith and Finding Peace Through Spiritual Practice - The Interfaith Amigos Guide to Personal, Social, and Environmental Healing. All three books received Spirituality & Practice Book Award as one of the Best Spiritual Books in the year of publication 2009, 2011, 2016.
The Amigos (and one Amiga):
Don MacKenzie: Rev. Dr. Donald Mackenzie, a minister of the United Church of Christ, is a graduate of Macalester College, Princeton Theological Seminary and New York University. He taught at Princeton Seminary, and was a minister at Nassau Presbyterian Church, Church of Christ at Dartmouth College, and University Congregational Church in Seattle. Since 2001, he has been part of the Interfaith Amigos, with whom he has co-authored three books. Don is also an accomplished country musician. He currently lives in Minneapolis.
Jamal Rahman: Jamal Rahman is a popular speaker on Islam, Sufi spirituality, and interfaith relations. Along with his Interfaith Amigos, he has been featured in the New York Times, CBS News, BBC, and various NPR programs. Jamal is co-founder and Muslim Sufi minister at Interfaith Community Sanctuary and adjunct faculty at Seattle University. He is a former co-host of Interfaith Talk Radio and travels nationally and internationally, presenting at retreats and workshops. In addition to the books he has co-authored with the Interfaith Amigos, he is also author of three books on Sufi spirituality, most recently Sacred Laughter of the Sufis.
Laura Duhan-Kaplan: Laura Duhan-Kaplan is Director of Inter-Religious Studies and Professor of Jewish Studies at the Vancouver School of Theology, and Rabbi Emerita of Or Shalom Synagogue. She has won many awards for her teaching of religion and philosophy, including the Carnegie Foundation’s prestigious U.S. Professor of the Year. Rabbi Laura is the author of Mouth of the Donkey: Re-Imagining Biblical Animals and Shechinah, Bring Me Home: Kabbalah and the Omer in Real Life. She has also collaboratively authored four books on interfaith topics including friendship, reconciliation, othering, and hope. She states that she is delighted to be part of the Interfaith Amigos, after admiring their work for many years. If you want to hear more from Laura, please check out episodes one and two with her on What Matters Most.
During our conversation, I asked my guests for recommendations for reading and spiritual practice. Jamal recommended Rumi, the great Sufi mystic. I have linked to one translation of his poems, but there are many others to explore. Don recommended Marcus Borg, and I have linked to one of his books, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time, but there are many others. Laura noted her doctoral supervisor Rabbi Marcia Prager, the Path of Blessing, a book I am excited to read. There was so many things mentioned, and I might forget something, but I wanted to link to a book Jamal mentioned, American Grace.
Since St. Mark’s Centre for Christian Engagement seeks to enable the creation of a culture of encounter and dialogue, let me invite you into that discussion. Please follow me on Twitter @biblejunkies, or on Facebook, at Biblejunkies, or on Instagram @biblejunkies. Or email me at jmartens@stmarkscollege.ca. Let me know what you think.
I also want to ask you to help out by letting people know about the podcast. If you are enjoying the podcast, please let your friends know. You can also let people know by rating and reviewing What Matters Most on your favourite podcasting platform. This lets people find the podcast more easily and lets people like you enjoy the work that we are doing. I think these are important and inspiring discussions and I would like people to have a chance to listen in!
This episode I think makes it clear why this name of this podcast is What Matters Most, as what matters to us leads to behaviors and practices that seek out the good of the planet and its people or that lead to destruction and anger. Keep in mind what Rabbi Laura said about gratefulness: what can you be grateful for today? What gives you hope? What can you do today that helps preserve the planet or that helps you get along better with your neighbour? Thanks so much for listening.
Peace,
John W. Martens