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Why cultivating agency matters more than cultivating skills in the AI era | Max Schoening (Head of Product, Notion)

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May 3, 2026

Guest

Max Schoening

Max Schoening, Notion’s Head of Product and former Google, Heroku, and GitHub leader, dives into why agency matters more than skills as AI reshapes work. He explores getting designers and PMs to prototype in code, the idea that the first draft is now almost free, malleable software, tiny-core products, and why the SaaS apocalypse is overhyped.

01:27:22

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Episode notes

Good Enough Models May Matter More Than Smarter Ones

Faster, cheaper, good-enough models may change work more than ever-smarter frontier models for everyday company tasks.
Max Schoening compares intelligence gains to retina displays: after a threshold, people may care more about speed, local use, and direct manipulation.

Token Spend Will Soon Face ROI Pressure

Unlimited experimentation makes sense early, but companies will soon ask whether AI spend produces real ROI.
Max Schoening warns that boasting about token usage is as meaningless as bragging about lines of code; output quality matters instead.

AI Adoption Depends On How Big The Capability Jump Feels

Non-engineers adopt AI fastest because the capability jump feels intoxicating, while engineers need more habit-breaking.
Max Schoening says any manual intervention in generated code should feel like a bug in the verification loop, not the normal workflow.

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Designers learn code through AI playgrounds

Coding matters because it reveals the material

06:31 • 4min

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Agency beats skills in the AI era

10:34 • 3min

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Merged roles still need true specialists

13:54 • 2min

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Making things builds a sense of agency

15:58 • 2min

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Malleable software restores user ownership

17:47 • 3min

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Useful design should be adaptable

20:45 • 3min

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The SaaS apocalypse is overstated

24:01 • 5min

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The first draft of products is now free

28:32 • 2min

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Faster models may reshape product creation

30:29 • 4min

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Token spend matters less than changed behavior

34:18 • 4min

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The terminal is becoming a cross-functional tool

Software engineering is spreading into every function

41:44 • 3min

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Model economics will look like cloud wars

44:28 • 4min

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Notion AI works because context already exists

48:40 • 3min

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Great teams ship more by chasing obvious quality

51:36 • 5min

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Taste comes from reps and feedback

56:42 • 3min

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Great products have one tiny superpower

01:00:10 • 5min

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Jobs to be done keeps teams user-honest

01:05:08 • 2min

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Knowledge work already resembles modern UBI

01:07:30 • 4min

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Small exclusive groups often create outsized impact

01:11:01 • 2min

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Polishing the wrong core is a fatal mistake

01:13:23 • 3min

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Young builders should resist frenzy and fear

01:16:22 • 3min

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Books, tools, and mottos for tinkering

• Mentioned in 14 episodes

Code

The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software

Charles Petzold

In 'Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software', Charles Petzold provides a detailed and accessible explanation of how computers function. The book begins with historical technologies such as Morse code, Braille, and Boolean logic, and gradually builds up to explain vacuum tubes, transistors, integrated circuits, and modern computer architecture. Petzold uses everyday objects and familiar language systems to illustrate the development of computer technology, making the subject understandable for readers of various technical backgrounds. The book covers topics from the construction of logic gates and memory banks to operating systems and high-level languages, providing a thorough understanding of the digital revolution.

#366

• Mentioned in 82 episodes

Seeing Like a State

How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed

James C. Scott

In this book, James C. Scott examines the failures of centrally managed social plans and the destructive consequences of high-modernist ideologies. Scott argues that states often impose simplistic visions on complex societies, ignoring local, practical knowledge and leading to disastrous outcomes. He identifies four conditions common to all planning disasters: administrative ordering of nature and society, high-modernist ideology, authoritarian state power, and a prostrate civil society. The book critiques various utopian projects, including collective farms, compulsory villagization, and urban planning, and advocates for a more nuanced approach that respects local diversity and practical knowledge.

#4245

• Mentioned in 12 episodes

Tools for Conviviality

Ivan Illich

Ivan Illich's "Tools for Conviviality" is a critical examination of industrial society's impact on human life. Illich argues that modern technologies, while offering efficiency, often lead to dependence and a loss of control. He challenges the notion of progress as solely technological advancement, emphasizing the importance of human scale and self-determination. The book explores the ways in which industrialization has shaped various aspects of life, from work and education to healthcare and transportation, highlighting the negative consequences of these systems. Illich's work serves as a call for a more human-centered approach to technology and social organization, advocating for conviviality as a guiding principle for a more just and sustainable society.

Max Schoening is head of product at Notion, where he’s been especially effective at getting designers and PMs to ship code, prototype in the terminal, and launch extremely successful AI products. He was previously a PM at Google, ran design at Heroku, was VP of Design (and a part-time engineer) at GitHub, and is a two-time founder. He’s one of the most AI-forward product leaders out there and one of the deepest thinkers on how AI changes how we build and use software.

We discuss:

1. What’s most worked in getting designers and PMs to embrace AI

2. Why agency—not skills—is the thing that separates people who thrive from those who fall behind

3. How the first 10% of every project is now “free,” and what that means for product development

4. Max’s “tiny core” theory of great products: iPhone multitouch, the GitHub pull request, Notion blocks, Dropbox’s menu bar icon

5. Why the SaaSpocalypse is overstated

6. Why the amount of software has exploded but the quality hasn’t, and why that gap creates opportunity

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