E124: How to Have A Philosophical Marriage w/ Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks

16 snips

Mar 9, 2025

Guest

Arnold Brooks

Guest

Agnes Callard

In this engaging discussion, philosophy professors Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks explore the dynamics of their unconventional marriage. They delve into how philosophical perspectives shape their relationship, viewing marriage as an evolving journey rather than a final destination. The duo discusses the significance of shared intellectual pursuits and the lessons learned from both marriage and divorce. They also touch on parenting, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and open dialogue in raising children, all while navigating the challenges of public perception.

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ANECDOTE

Inspiration and Aspiration

Arnold believes Agnes's book, "Aspiration," was inspired by their relationship, exploring how relationships involve valuing unforeseen things.
Agnes acknowledges the influence of Aristotle's philosophy of change on the book.

INSIGHT

Escaping the Beginning

Agnes initially idealized their relationship to justify leaving her previous marriage.
She emphasizes the importance of relationships escaping the shadow of their beginnings.

ADVICE

Navigating Divorce

Openness and honesty, particularly during difficult times, can help navigate divorce constructively.
Maintaining friendship and shared interests, like philosophy, can aid this process.

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Today on Upstream, we’re releasing an episode from Modern Relationships which originally aired on February 28, 2025 where Erik Torenberg interviews philosophy professors Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks about their unconventional marriage, the role of philosophy in their relationship, the impact of their public profile, and how they balance personal and philosophical life together.

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RECOMMENDED PODCASTS:

🎙️Check out Modern Relationships, where Erik Torenberg interviews tech power couples and leading thinkers to explore how ambitious people actually make partnerships work. This season's guests include: Delian Asparouhov & Nadia Asparouhova, Kristen Berman & Phil Levin, Rob Henderson, and Liv Boeree & Igor Kurganov.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1786227593

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5hJzs0gDg6lRT6r10mdpVg

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ModernRelationshipsPod

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LINKS:

New Yorker article on Agnes and Arnold, by Rachel Aviv: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/13/agnes-callard-profile-marriage-philosophy

Agnes Callard: https://philosophy.uchicago.edu/faculty/a-callard

Arnold Brooks: https://philosophy.uchicago.edu/arnold-brooks

Pre-order Agnes Callard's new book Open Socrates: https://wwnorton.com/books/open-socrates

Agnes Callard on Upstream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JotaCsaG3Y

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HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE:

Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks are philosophy professors at University of Chicago who met when she was his teacher, leading to her divorce from Ben and marriage to Arnold.
Agnes was initially attracted to Arnold's remarkable ability to interpret Aristotle, which she considered more impressive than conventional attractive qualities.
Arnold was drawn to Agnes as a "fellow philosopher" in a specific way he hadn't experienced with anyone else before.
Their philosophical disagreement centers on whether marriage is something achievable to build upon (Arnold's view) or an indefinite pursuit toward an ideal that may be beyond reach (Agnes's view).
Agnes provocatively stated "marriage is a preparation for divorce" - not meaning marriages should end, but that relationships require navigating difficult circumstances.
They maintain an unusual living arrangement where Agnes, Arnold, and her ex-husband Ben all live together and co-parent.
Arnold says his primary attraction is simply witnessing Agnes's way of living, which doesn't require reciprocation.
They caution against basing relationships solely on reciprocal goods (I support you, you support me).
Their approach to raising "interesting" children involves asking them abstract questions rather than concrete ones.
Their New Yorker profile brought public attention that Agnes believes says more about readers' fascination than about their actual relationship.

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