S2E5 - Retail Transformers - Polly Wong

Direct-to-consumer. DTC. What emotional response do those words conjure for you? The formula for DTC used to be simple – spend marketing dollars to acquire new customers. Today, customer acquisition costs can be 10X higher than they used to be, so what should be the new strategy in these challenging, post-pandemic economic times? Polly Wong, president of Bellardi Wong, and our latest Retail Transformer, has the answers. Polly’s agency works with the best, most successful DTC brands and she is sharing the best practices every DTC founder, brand manager, and category manager need to know to be successful in this episode! Should you open stores? Leverage print? Catalogs? Is Facebook still worthwhile? What about TikTok? Listen and find out!

News alert #1: The Retail Razor Show has been nominated for The Retail Voice Award at the Vendors in Partnership Award ceremony during NRF 2023 in January in New York City! IF you’re a fan of the show, please give us your vote! You can vote here: https://bit.ly/VIPretail 

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Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno.

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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TRANSCRIPT

S2E5 Retail Transformers - Polly Wong

[00:00:00] Pre-Intro

[00:00:00] Casey Golden: Ricardo, I've got one word for you to describe this week's show. Dtc. 

[00:00:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, so Casey, I'm thinking that's technically three words, but, but nevermind that. Um, I don't think we've done an entire show focused on DTC before, have we?

[00:00:13] Casey Golden: Hey, I didn't write the script. So

[00:00:21] So this is exciting and. I'm especially pumped for all 

[00:00:24] the DTC founders out there tuning in. This one is for you.

[00:00:28] Ricardo Belmar: That's true, and honestly, if you're a direct to consumer founder listening or, or watching us on YouTube, stop right now. Go grab a pen and paper or your iPad or whatever you like to use to take notes, because believe me, you are going to be writing things down nonstop in a mad fury throughout this episode.

[00:00:45] Casey Golden: Oh yeah. The tips and tricks are going to be flying. And you just don't wanna miss a

[00:00:50] minute.

[00:00:51] Ricardo Belmar: So should we just start the show or should we make listeners suffer a little bit more first, with more of our carefree and eloquent banter,

[00:00:56] Casey Golden: Oh, you're so cruel. Let's get to the music already. 

[00:00:59]

[00:01:19] Show Intro

[00:01:19] Ricardo Belmar: Hello and welcome to season two, episode five of The Retail Razor Show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:01:25] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden. Welcome to the Retail Razor Show listeners, retail's unapologetically authentic podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everybody else in retail and tech alike. 

[00:01:39] Ricardo Belmar: We are 

[00:01:40] back with another 

[00:01:41] episode in our Retail Transformers series, and honestly, if you thought last episode's guest, Alan Smithson was an absolutely incredible, never ending source of value on the Metaverse, wow are you gonna be blown away with today's guest and topic!

[00:01:54] Casey Golden: Yeah. As a founder, I'm so excited we're going to dive into this world of D to C and talk with amazing expert that's working with most of the top D to C brands out there. You would not believe how much knowledge she has to share, and that could really impact your DTC business by multiples 

[00:02:16] Ricardo Belmar: Indeed! Faithful followers, you will learn exactly why Polly Wong is more than meets the eye. This may go down as one of our most listened to episodes. We're gonna hear about what the right marketing and media spend mix should be for customer acquisition today. Because honestly, if you think it's the same as it was in the early days of D to C, boy are you in for a shock.

[00:02:35] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean, did you even consider print, like say catalogs? I bet you didn't. You will after this episode.

[00:02:44] Ricardo Belmar: And then there's all the tips you're gonna hear 

[00:02:46] on growth strategies, how to activate your CRM for more profitable growth, retargeting those customers. And what about opening stores? Have you thought about where to open stores? 

[00:02:55] Casey Golden: There's just so much we could list. I mean, you're going to hear so many incredible 

[00:03:00] nuggets on marketing, roi, ROAS, and just so much more. 

[00:03:04] Ricardo Belmar: All right, then let's get to it. 

[00:03:06] Casey Golden: Let's roll.

[00:03:07]

[00:03:12] Polly Wong Interview

[00:03:12] Ricardo Belmar: And we're here with our special guest and latest retail transformer to visit the show. Polly Wong, President of Belardi Wong, which some people may know as a direct to consumer marketing agency. But more on that in a moment. First of all, welcome Polly.

[00:03:26] Polly Wong: Thank you for having me.

[00:03:27] Casey Golden: It's great to have you on the show. Since we first met you, we've both been looking forward to this conversation and really digging in. So excited 

[00:03:36] Ricardo Belmar: Polly just to get us started, why don't you give us a more complete introduction of yourself and tell us about your company and what you do.

[00:03:42] Polly Wong: You know, I've been in retail for 25 years. I've had an incredible amount of experience. Really. It's both on the client side at some major retailers. I started 25 years ago at eddiebower.com. I was fortunate to work at Williams Sonoma Inc across their portfolio of brands before jumping to the dark side to the agency side, which is a lot of fun and an incredible learning curve.

[00:04:06] It's like learning on steroids, I like to say. Today at Belardi Wong, we have 400 active clients, about 90% D TO C brands. Of course, D to C brands have stores as well. And then some very large retail brands that that all of you would know as well. A tremendous amount of experience in fashion, at home decor, furnishings also in some niche categories as well.

[00:04:28] We definitely do tend to work with premium brands targeting an affluent consumer. So much of the vantage point that I have to share with you today is really from that angle of brands who are really targeting, you know, an affluent consumer. The folks out there buying, you know, two or $300 sweaters and expensive shoes and $5,000 sofa.

[00:04:47] So I, I like to make that clearer, but we're really privileged just to have an incredible vantage point into the industry. 

[00:04:53] Casey Golden: Really excited to dig deeper in this. As I mentioned before, I'm very intrigued in, in, into the side of the business of marketing. Compared to a lot of the more traditional route that have been taken over the last decade. So clearly you're focused on direct to consumer brands, both old and new, but certainly more established brands.

[00:05:10] I think based off of what you said, one of the areas getting a lot of press lately in the D to C space is really how the marketing spend is being shifted from Facebook, Google, versus other mediums. Can you tell us a little bit about what's happening here with D to C brands and how that's changing this marketing mix?

[00:05:30] Polly Wong: Sure. So it's been a really fascinating year to watch how the Apple platform changes have really impacted all of the digital platforms. Specifically meta we've found, as an aside, we've found that really Google is quite a resilient, steady, reliable channel. You know, Google continues to make enhancements that work for advertisers.

[00:05:52] Performance Max on Google has worked very well for our clients over the last several months, so, so Google's very kind of reliable and steady. Google has had 10 to 50% increase, 10 to 15% increases. And, you know, costs, but really in line with kind of all the cost increases we're seeing across the p and l as a brand or as a retailer.

[00:06:12] So really the challenge on the digital side in the last year has really come from meta and the Apple platform changes basically led. To less effective targeting and less effective measurement. And at the same time that our clients have seen a less effective measurement and less effective targeting on meta, they've also seen some pretty steep double digit increases on CPMs, on meta or Facebook, if you will.

[00:06:38] And so we've seen dramatic underperformance in the last year, specifically in the social landscape. And so, you know, D to C brands inherently were built on Facebook and Google. The inherent DNA, if you will, of, of D to C brands is that one, they're performance based marketers, and two, you know, they're just wholeheartedly focused on new customer acquisition.

[00:07:01] And so now you've seen that this Facebook channel just, you know, one of the top two most critical channels for new customer acquisition for DTC brands has really begun to plummet in the last year. I know across our client base through August, our clients have spent 19% less this year versus last year on Meta.

[00:07:21] And that's because of the significant underperformance. But obviously Meta has taken the lion share of most of the marketing dollars for D2C brands. So, the question is, where is it going? You know, where are they shifting marketing spend? And that's been really interesting to 

[00:07:35] Casey Golden: That's great, and you really mention it as like a CRM strategy. 

[00:07:39] Is that, Is that right? 

[00:07:40] Spending shifts and pivots

[00:07:40] Polly Wong: Yeah, so I think, well, I think we can talk about kind of where they're shifting their spend, but also, you know, what are some of the, the pivots that D to C brands need to make in order to be successful. And I think most D2C brands have not realized yet that the most incredible asset that they have is the customer file, the customer database.

[00:08:01] That they've built up over the last five to 10 years. Now they've spent millions and millions of dollars building their customer file. New customer acquisition always comes at a cost. It's an investment. You cannot have a profitable business when you are only focused on acquisition as a fact.

[00:08:15] Casey Golden: Oh my God, can you just like, say that 

[00:08:17] Ricardo Belmar: we should just frame that just to make that clear for, for everyone who's doubting that 

[00:08:22] Casey Golden: We're putting that in bold print.

[00:08:24] Polly Wong: Yes. Also I'll just go out on a limb and also say you can't have a large, scalable, sustainable business when you only have a handful of product as well, we can get to that later. But definitely you can't just single handidly focus on new customer acquisition so I actually see, you know, there's a lot of headwinds right now, but I see a major tailwind that D to C brands could lean into is really crm, right? You know, I've talked to many, many brands over the years that when you ask them, they say they spent a hundred percent of their marketing budget on acquisition, and it's almost like crm, customer retention management. It's just an afterthought, right?

[00:08:59] Like, Oh, we have email now, of course they'll say, We have email and sms. But there are really five major channels in the CRM toolbox, and we don't see D to C brands leaning into that. It's a discipline and a skill set they need to evolve to very quickly because that's where the profit is going to come, as we kind of stare down some economic uncertainty.

[00:09:18] So the five channels that we really think about, obviously e email. Second is sms. Some clients have leaned into it very quickly. Some have not. It's still a huge opportunity. I, for one, wondered at the beginning if really SMS would just be shifting sales from email, but we do find that SMS is an incremental revenue driver.

[00:09:37] So you've got email and sms. Obviously D to C brands are pretty good at targeting their customer file on Facebook, but they let it work too often on its own. And you really have to think about the segmentation and targeting of lapse customers. You have to carve out specific marketing dollars at targeting customers who've not bought from you in over a year.

[00:09:58] There's still a better focus for your marketing dollar than pure new customer acquisition. And so you really wanna target your lapse customer file, on Facebook, and you wanna make sure you're looking at the frequency and the messaging and the targeting and the testing against that segment. 

[00:10:13] So now hopefully you've got brands, you know, leveraging and leaning into reactivation on social. I think what we don't find enough is actually proactive spending on search with your lapse customers. Let's say that Mary Jane bought a sweater from you a year and a half ago, and now Mary Jane is on Google searching for a turquoise turtleneck sweater.

[00:10:36] You should be there targeting her. You should be buying that ad against Mary's search, right? Her click, you should be targeting her. And so really targeting lapse customers when they're searching for your product is a huge opportunity. We don't see clients carving out marketing dollars to really have that kind of proactive approach at customer reactivation on search, so I think that's a low hanging opportunity.

[00:11:00] And then for definitely print. So all 400, you know, retailers and brands here, at Belardi Wong, are in the mail. They're leveraging direct mail and catalogs for customer retention. It's extremely effective. And driving up purchase frequency and revenue per customer and overall lifetime value. The great thing about print is that, you know, you've got a hundred percent reach.

[00:11:22] So if you want to target Mary Jane who bought from you a year and a half ago she's gotta at least touch the piece to recycle it, so you've got a hundred percent reach. All of our data over the last year as we've looked at it, we've found that if you want to target a specific customer at a specific time within social, you've got about an 18% chance.

[00:11:43] Basically, you've got an 18% chance of reaching who you want. When you want to on Facebook, and that's because you're competing with other advertisers for her impression. Mary Jane your customer only has so much impressions and frequency on Facebook and you're competing with other advertisers, and especially in our case, as I said, our clients tend to target, you know, affluent consumers and so Mary Jane is a great shopper and there's a lot of advertisers who want her impressions, and so you can't be sure that you're going to reach her.

[00:12:13] And on email, you know, maybe you're lucky if you've got a 20, 25% open rate, but once you start looking at your lapse customers, maybe you've got a 10 or 15% open rate. And so the only way that you could make sure that you get a hundred percent reach is in the mail. And so we see this CRM toolbox with email, sms, social, search and print really is a major opportunity for D to C brands who built very expensive customer files at this point, to really lean into that as a major growth strategy.

[00:12:42] Casey Golden: It seems so basic, but yet at the same time, like, but nobody's doing it. , Right. Is to like really go back into that core of, of all those customers.

[00:12:54] Ricardo Belmar: And I, and I thought that a lot of these DTC would have used search when. came up, right, to try to get that initial customer acquisition. So I, I find it kind of curious that if, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I, it seems to me that that's one of the original tactics I expect to see DTC brands use at the start, maybe they don't come back to it, to your point.

[00:13:15] Polly Wong: You know, we don't see a fine level of segmentation and targeting honestly, within digital media buying. You know, I, I think about digital media agencies and I think of them as master tinkerers, and I can almost just see all the people behind the scenes, almost like behind a clock, you know, turning the dial a little bit this way and a little bit that way.

[00:13:33] And it's really about bids and CPMs and it's about creative and frequency and the type of ad. It's really not about. Okay, This is our cheerleader cohort. This is our loyalist cohort. This is our, you know, former cheerleader cohort meeting. This used to be a best customer, and now she's not a best customer.

[00:13:52] What percent of our spend are we going to target against her? What should be the target cost to retain? You know, the industry talks about the target cost of acquisition, you know, the cost to acquire a new customer, but you never hear anyone talk about the cost to retain a customer. And I think we're gonna have to see a major shift in how people think.

[00:14:11] I think that's the one thing in my, my 25 years in retail. I think there has to be an inherent pivot for D to C brands to embrace some of the real kind of retail operation discipline that has existed, you know, for many years and has allowed companies to exist for decades and to become billion dollar retailers.

[00:14:30] And that definitely includes financial planning. It includes inventory planning, merchandise planning, and definitely really thinking about, you know, your target customer and your segmentation and CRM and how you're allocating those dollars.

[00:14:46] Casey Golden: I always say, if you spent 

[00:14:49] half as much time retaining your customers as you spent all of these resources on acquiring them, you'd have a completely different business.

[00:14:58] Polly Wong: Yeah. You know, and I think we we're seeing, I think it's actually kind of exciting. There are definitely always some D to C brands who are leading in the space and we see. Really three major growth strategies and definitely activating more channels for both CRM and for active acquisition. You know, testing TikTok, testing connected TV or streaming tv, leaning into print for both acquisition and crm.

[00:15:22] And so definitely activating more marketing channels is an important opportunity for D to C brands. But also, I can emphasize enough, and I touched on this earlier, as a matter of fact, the more product you put in front of. Across categories and price points, the more revenue you will drive from her. And I always tell people, I learned two things in my years, at Williams Sonoma Inc.

[00:15:45] When I was on the client side. The first is that the best way to drive response rates is to have a range of product across categories and price points. So, okay, you know, she bought a sofa from you, what is she gonna buy next? And that's why you see these types of brands have an incredible assortment in tabletop and seasonal decor and all of those other categories, bed and bath.

[00:16:06] The second thing I learned at Williams Sonoma I tell people, is that on my second day on the job Chuck Williams himself, so I'm dating myself a little bit, he said to me, Polly, you know how you sell a $200 toaster? You put a $400 toaster next to it? And I never forgot that 

[00:16:19] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And, it completely makes sense. I mean, I to, I have to give credit to William Sonoma, right? Who has, mastered that technique of positioning and curating the right selection at different price points to drive a particular one that you might wanna drive, I think they, I've an amazing job at doing that, and that's certainly a lesson a lot of DTC brands would need to learn.

[00:16:40] And, and also kind of speaks. Theory, I've always put out that, you know, so many of these DTC brands that came to be, know, is digitally native, know, wanted to just disrupt one particular product they started with that one product and I always felt that, you know, the one question that does not get asked when they're seeing some initial success, right?

[00:17:02] They're getting a lot of new customers, they weren't thinking through, okay, what's the frequency with which these customers I've paid to 

[00:17:10] Polly Wong: Yes. 

[00:17:11] Ricardo Belmar: now in some way are going to buy again the 

[00:17:14] Polly Wong: Yes, exactly. 

[00:17:17] How often? ,

[00:17:18] Ricardo Belmar: most things people don't buy every week.

[00:17:20] Polly Wong: Absolutely. So how often do you need to buy a mattress and how often do you need to buy a suitcase? Right? Thinking 

[00:17:26] Ricardo Belmar: Two. two, good examples.

[00:17:27] Polly Wong: popular, 

[00:17:28] Ricardo Belmar: good examples. 

[00:17:28] Adopting Basic Retail Operations

[00:17:28] Polly Wong: Brands that we've seen now struggle to grow. Absolutely. You know there are some really great smart brands out there. You know, we've seen a lot of the really high growth soft goods companies, so bedding companies, you know, there's a reason why they launch into lounge wear, right?

[00:17:43] There's a reason why they launch into bath, right? So you see these bedding soft good companies launch into other categories because, okay, so I bought a set of sheets. I bought, you know, a beautiful comforter, but what am I gonna buy next from you? And you've seen home brands lean into apparel.

[00:18:00] You've seen apparel brands lean into home. You know, we're going to continue to see that. Absolutely. But honestly, you know, we were just putting together some strategies internally for clients cuz there are, as I said earlier, a significant amount of headwinds, I think facing brands and retailers in the next six to 12 months.

[00:18:18] There's a lot of really inexpensive ways that don't require a lot of research and development that don't require a lot of product development and long timelines. We were doing an assessment for a women's apparel company. And we were looking at their tops and we were looking at tops and the price points and the sizes and the colors of their competitive set.

[00:18:38] And as we were looking at the tops, we realized, you know, you sell that long sleeve basic tee in four colors, but on average your competitors sell their long sleeve basic tee in eight to 10 colors. And also you sell yours for $8 more on average. And so maybe if you could take and just add color ways, take your top selling.

[00:18:59] Products and add new colorways. Think about, you know, how much would a four, $6 price cut to be competitive? What kind of incremental revenue would that bring? And I think it's that type of merchandise analysis and merchandise planning and inventory management that honestly is a discipline that D to C brands don't inherently have.

[00:19:17] So it's time, as I said earlier, to hire some good old fashioned retail operations 

[00:19:21] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's an 

[00:19:22] That. an excellent point and 

[00:19:23] it's one that I think that has never been quite so obvious, right, to the DTC brands, because they had that single minded, I have this one product that we're gonna disrupt. It's this one product category, this one selection we're gonna disrupt. And there wasn't enough thought to, Well, what happens next? After you've done that? 

[00:19:37] I, do wanna ask you one question because you know, when Casey and I were thinking of, what we, we were gonna learn from you in this episode, and we thought, it really tells a story about that we think of as, you know, making old media, new media in a way, in a sense that as you've been describing to us now, different marketing mix and moving from a lot of pure.

[00:19:57] Digital marketing spend to other perhaps more, more traditional, maybe some non-traditional, because I heard connected TV in there as well. But I'm really intrigued by the success your clients are having in print and with catalogs, which call that maybe the most traditional option a lot of brands can go with.

[00:20:14] and when we've spoken to you before, you've mentioned that. When people hear catalog, sort of have an idea in their head of what that might look like. But what you're now with your, your, your clients is not exactly the same kind of format. I, I think it's a much. And maybe you could tell us a little bit more about what's evolved in this, in the print catalog space.

[00:20:33] Polly Wong: Yeah. They're not your mother's catalogs anymore. You know, it used to be that you have a hundred page catalog and you've got, you know, five to 10 items per page and you put the whole store inside the catalog. And it used to be that, 80% of catalogs went to women over 55. And she only bought what she saw on the page.

[00:20:51] And there's been just really a fundamental shift. First of all, there is a significant amount of print pieces folded pieces, catalogs going in home, The 20 year olds, 30 year olds, 40 year olds. And so now the catalog isn't something you, you shop from the, the catalog or the direct mail piece is a channel driver and it's driving her to the store to buy or is driving her to e-commerce to buy.

[00:21:15] And over the years, as we've analyzed the results, we've seen and found that actually only about a third of the product that she buys after she gets the piece was depicted in the piece, meaning that two outta three times what she buys was not in the actual piece, but it drove her to the site or it drove her to the store.

[00:21:34] So she thought she wanted one sweater, she got to the site, she bought a different sweater, So as we began to understand that there was a new purpose to print that really it was to drive her to a channel to engage and then to buy, right? Always measuring, of course, the ROAS, actually, I think it's ironic, catalogers were really the original D to C brands and catalogers were always performance based marketers.

[00:21:57] So I like to throw that out there. But today, especially for our fashion clients and our home brand clients, definitely catalogs look more like look books they're more aspirational, more lifestyle photography, more storytelling. You know, we actually one of the most successful catalogs in history and the thousands and thousands and thousands of campaigns we measured, when you open up this catalog, the first two spreads are actually just really an aspirational story.

[00:22:25] And yet it was extremely productive as measured by sales. And so really you're here to engage the customer and to drive her to a channel to buy, and that is the ultimate goal. Now, what we've found, depending on the product assortment, depending on the price point, depending on the target consumer, First of all, you don't have to send a full, so full, huge catalog anymore, right?

[00:22:46] So most of our clients are sending catalogs that are maybe 28 or 36 pages, but not, you know, 80 plus pages. So you don't have to send her as many pages. You don't have to put the whole store. In the catalog, you wanna just say, Here's our our new products, here's our best sellers, and you wanna be compelling and you wanna send her to the channel to buy that she wants to buy in.

[00:23:08] And then also we've seen a whole new lifeline because print is acting as this channel driver and you don't have to put the full assortment in front of her. We've seen an incredible amount of success with folded pieces. You know, here is our top five new products of the season. Check it out online, check it out in store.

[00:23:25] And so we've found that there's a different messaging and creative strategy also because of this kind of new purpose and how consumers are interacting with print. And I should say that it, it has been an amazing ride. Really just, you know, hundreds of new brands in the mail the last couple of years.

[00:23:42] But, you know, starting over a decade ago, we launched brands like Shutterfly, Minted, Revolve, Zappos, One Kings Lane. You know, we Allbirds, right? We started with Allbirds had zero customers. You know, over a decade ago we launched all of these brands into the mail. And so some folks I think already could see it, you know, early on.

[00:24:03] I think what's happened is that the cost of digital marketing has become extremely competitive and saturated and promotional and expensive, and you can't always reach who you wanna reach. There's an amazing amount of real estate in print to tell your story and to put your product, and also it's effective for both.

[00:24:20] Crm. I would say that mailing customers is like printing money, but also for new customer acquisition. We tend to work with premium brands and you know, to get someone to buy a $300 sweater from you when they've never heard of your brand before, the amount of real estate goes a long way in convincing new customers to buy.

[00:24:36] Ricardo Belmar: That's a good point cuz in those scenarios, right, you're really asking that new customer to buy your story as much as your product.

[00:24:43] Polly Wong: Absolutely. And you know, I think there's an amount of credibility and authority just as stores give D to C brands credibility. I think the same is can be set of print and I like to say that millennials can spot a manufactured brand from a mile away. And I think that there's an amount of real estate that you have to tell your story.

[00:25:03] And if it's authentic, like we have clients, brands like Outer known who just have incredible, authentic story around sustainability and apparel. And a really, you know, just a huge commitment to that as a business. And they're able to build that story with their community through print 

[00:25:19] On Opening Stores

[00:25:19] Casey Golden: one of the initiatives that's been happening lately that has me very excited, just cuz I think we all kind of started in stores, is more of these digitally native brands or pure play brands actually opening up stores and more pop up. I'm a big advocate of the in-store experience. Not that many of us have had one lately, but with the world closed for a little bit.

[00:25:42] But I think it's a great opportunity to actually connect. Are you, are you helping them essentially kind of understand where they should be potentially opening up stores or opening up popups or working on that strategy based on, because you guys know so much about where the consumer lives and that community, 

[00:26:02] Polly Wong: Certainly you can build models regarding, you know, around trade areas to understand where your customers are at today and where your perspective best customers are at. I think to answer your original question though, you know, around just this kind of continued push of D to C brands in stores, honestly, it's really, really very simple.

[00:26:26] in any category, more than 50% of sales are still in physical stores. So if you're not selling either in your own stores or on the floor at Nordstrom's, for example, if you're not building your wholesale network, then you're missing out on 50% of your market. And so that's really what it comes down to. I think one of the things that I find more encouraging today about the retail landscape than I did before the pandemic.

[00:26:54] Before the pandemic. You just saw almost an absurd level of store openings from DTC brands. Brands that were suddenly opening 20, 30, 40 stores a year. When you open stores that quickly, you're not going into just a markets, you're not negotiating the best real estate deals. You aren't taking the time to build the models to understand where your customers are and where your best.

[00:27:17] New perspective customers are, but I think what's great to see is I'm seeing a more cautious approach. I'm seeing the D to C brands understand they need to have a physical footprint and that maybe at the same time, now they're only opening up five to seven stores a year. They're also exploring partnerships with department stores and other retailers to be on their floor.

[00:27:38] We have so many brands that we work with who sell on the floor at Anthropology, for example. And so I think that most of our clients have realized you have to have that physical presence in order to reach your customer where she's at when she's shopping, and also because it's a significant business opportunity.

[00:27:55] I also think, I mean, there's no question, you know, there is, I think, better real estate deals to be had in 'A' markets because of the amount of store closings in the last couple of years, I think there are still some significant opportunities in terms of finding the right space, the right price with the right consumer.

[00:28:12] And so I think that's very encouraging. I think from what I've last seen, this is gonna be the first year in a very, very long time where the number of store openings will actually outpace the number of store closings 

[00:28:22] Casey Golden: Yeah. I kind of saw, you know, it's nice to see that this, this natural transition, essentially it's all coming back to all these different channels and touch points where there was that moment. where it's just like you just need to be online and everybody else is doing it wrong, and then you just see it come full circle where they're starting to join. We've already went through this cycle.

[00:28:45] Polly Wong: Well, you said it yourself. Yeah, you said it yourself. What's old is new again, honestly, to me, advertising on podcasts, it's radio. to me, connected TV is TV advertising, right? Like it's all we've been through these channels. Even outdoor media is having a huge resurgence right out of home media. And so I think that, you know, what it really comes down to is that the most sophisticated marketers have realized that you need a channel mix.

[00:29:13] Online, offline, you need to be where your customer is at. You need to have multiple distribution channels, you need to have multiple products. And I think that the high growth brands, you know, have realized that, and I think everyone else is beginning to learn as well.

[00:29:25] On marketplaces 

[00:29:25] Ricardo Belmar: So let me ask you too, on, on, that Polly, one of the areas that I, I think is also interesting here is how these brands leverage different marketplaces you know, within that channel mix. I mean, what, what are your thoughts there and how do you advise brands around marketplaces?

[00:29:39] Polly Wong: Definitely D to C brands have had a lot of, you know, trepidation around the marketplaces. I definitely think though that they're going to be forced to consider it. we've already found is, we've just discussed that you can't have an e-commerce only business. And so we saw these e-commerce brands open up stores, and then we saw them add wholesale partners. And so now really the last major distribution channel as a source of revenue growth is the marketplaces.

[00:30:03] And historically, D to C brands have been very protective of their brand's message and of their new customers. And they don't want to let anyone kind of expose their brand other than how they want it presented. However, I do think that the pressure to continue to drive revenue with all of these headwinds and because the reality is that all consumers are on the marketplaces, and you know, now we've got Macy's leaning into their marketplace.

[00:30:30] I mean, every single major retailer is going to have their own marketplace online as well. I think you have to be there. I think, you know, we're finding clients kind of tiptoe into it. They're testing different strategies. They might only put part of their assortment within the marketplaces. They might actually develop a specific collection for the marketplaces.

[00:30:50] So definitely I think they're cautious. But I think that they're going to be forced to consider trying it in ways they might not have a few years ago because they've gotta drive revenue growth. And because there are so many, you know, headwinds, unfortunately at the moment,

[00:31:05] Retail Media Networks

[00:31:05] Ricardo Belmar: So one of the other big trends that we're talking about this season on our show are retail media networks. We've, dedicated an episode on it. I was just at the grocery shop event and that was a huge, huge trend there as well.

[00:31:17] So I'm curious, what, what's your recommendation for brands around you know, whether it's with the marketplaces that they may be new to or as they're getting into stores and, and wholesale agreements there? How are you advising DTC brands around retail media networks?

[00:31:31] Polly Wong: You know, it's interesting. I don't think that we'll see D to C brands leverage their own assets and their own impressions and their own emails and their own social for advertising income and revenue. Because D to C brands usually are not big enough to actually make it worthwhile to suddenly open up their own assets for advertising, but certainly as it relates to the really large retailers and the real large marketplaces, I don't know why you wouldn't choose to advertise there.

[00:32:01] You know, in order to make that advertising work, those platforms have to offer the level of targeting and segmentation that will drive the performance to justify the CPMs and the media spend. Why would you not test it? I mean one, I think really positive quality of DTC brands is that usually they're willing to test anything.

[00:32:19] And I think in this case, not only why would you not test it and consider it, as long as you know that your target consumer is there from a sociodemographic profile perspective. But in some cases, if you are going to play, for example, on the marketplaces, you have to buy media on the marketplaces. It's not like if you build that, they will come.

[00:32:37] You've gotta have the advertising dollars to actually support your sales on the marketing place on the marketplace.

[00:32:42] Casey Golden: for a lot of our listeners. I'm sure they've been nodding their heads as as you speak. There's a lot of question marks though still 

[00:32:49] for anybody who hasn't been looking at their, their media spend in this way. What should brands be looking at a D to C or D to C brands? Be looking at a media spend breakdown.

[00:33:01] You know, what portion are you seeing more of a trend? Because we see it's so scary to move a portion of your business over to something new, even if it's starting to break, There's what are, what do you see more as a breakdown? Just so people can go ahead and make the shift and just close their eyes and go

[00:33:21] Polly Wong: Yeah. large brands that we see, large brands and retailers that we see doing well, that are significant in size and have e-commerce and have stores, they've really shifted to almost a 40, 40 20 marketing mix where 40% of their spend is digital marketing. 40% is offline, which could include actually tv, radio, print, out of home media.

[00:33:47] And then 20% is really PR partnerships, sponsorships, influencers, you know, things around content and community. So, You know, to 40% across the digital channels, 40% across all kind of other, you know non-digital channels. And then what's really encouraging to see and smaller brands can't afford often to spend, you know, top of funnel.

[00:34:12] But as a matter of fact, high growth brands do spend top of funnel. And so you'll see the. Companies are beginning to carve out 10 to 20% of their spend. So they get the pr, they get the influencers, they get the sponsorships and the partnerships that allows them to build community.

[00:34:27] Launching Direct Mail

[00:34:27] Casey Golden: So if there's a, if there's a direct to consumer brand right now that's listening what's the ballpark range they'd need to be? Looking at for budgeting to launch a campaign a, a direct mail campaign.

[00:34:40] Polly Wong: Okay. Well, I thought you were gonna ask a bigger picture question. What percent of top line revenue do you have to spend high growth, emerging brands are spending, you know, 20 to 25% of top line revenue on marketing. Mature businesses spend closer to 10 to 15% of top line revenue on marketing and big retailers and wholesale brands might only spend, you know, six to 10% of their top line revenue on marketing.

[00:35:10] But definitely if you're an emerging DTC brand today, you're definitely spending 20 to 25% of your top line revenue. So for every hundred dollars, you're spending 20 to 25 dollars. To get that. So just in terms of what you have to spend as an emerging brand to get traction. Absolutely. If you think you can build a brand from scratch that's spending, you know, $10 on the a hundred dollars, it'll never happen.

[00:35:34] Unfortunately, those days are, are past us in terms of, you know, really testing print, well here at Ballardi Wong, we only, you know, we run the largest, you know, Scalable, sophisticated programs in the country. So we don't do anything small, cheaper, schlossky. So we're, we're a little bit more on the premium side here . Really to get.

[00:35:52] A solid proof of concept with all of the industry best practices in place for both CRM and acquisition. You're looking at about a 75 to a hundred thousand dollars test in print and we've launched over 250 DTC brands into the mail successfully. And even little baby ones with a few thousand customers and they're all spending that much money.

[00:36:11] So on their first campaign still less expensive, you know, still half as much as a three week TV campaign. So,

[00:36:18] Casey Golden: mean hey, I mean, I mean that could just be one post by a tick, a certain, a couple TikTok influencers too. So, I 

[00:36:25] mean, you 

[00:36:26] know, 

[00:36:26] Polly Wong: That's the, you know, here's the ironic thing. You can put a beautiful full size catalog in front of a consumer for 85 cents. Your cost per click nowadays is, you know, two or $3. So the thing that's really crazy is that you can mail. 4, 5, 6 catalogs to a highly targeted audience for the cost of one click.

[00:36:47] So I think that that's, you know, it seems expensive, but actually, quality touch, yes, it's 

[00:36:54] Casey Golden: I agree. And it's really just being able to say like, instead of spending that hundred k, the 200,000 on this, let's just go ahead and move it over here and run a test. Because I think everything that you've really kind of ran through through this conversation and what you guys are doing is just, it's, it's incredibly compelling. And it's a lot of things that potentially these customer bases or the brands are just not as familiar with because they don't have a lot of seasoned retailers in their company orgs. And so a lot of it, we see somebody doing something or like, you really only have one product. Like you do realize that there's like issues with this who gave you. You know, and then now those 

[00:37:43] conversations 

[00:37:44] Polly Wong: think, well, you know what's gonna be really interesting to see is that it's not gonna be very easy. We're already finding this. We actually do due diligence on D to C transactions because of all of our experience at Belardi Wong. And not this summer, but last summer we worked on six transactions, and this summer we didn't work on any transactions.

[00:38:03] I think very quickly. It's going to be a very tough landscape for raising dollars at this moment in time. And already the industry has become a little bit weary because some of the evaluations and the losses that have happened over the last couple of years. And so I think companies are gonna have to be scrappier and smarter because it's not gonna be so easy to get someone to give you, you know, 20, $30 million just like that. 

[00:38:25] Casey Golden: Yeah. no, I mean yeah, I think it's great. I mean, I, I think that this is, I'm really excited to see some comments once this kind of goes, gets pushed out because I know that this is gonna be some new content that they haven't really thought about as even an option think it's 

[00:38:39] Using Influencers 

[00:38:39] Ricardo Belmar: I I, do wanna go back to one thing that you mentioned in the 40 40 20 split where you had in that 20%, you know, kind of lump together in, in pr, things like influencers, and that tends to get a lot of attention. Around, you know, what brands are spending with influencers and how they're using them.

[00:38:56] Are they on TikTok yet? What? are you seeing there that's actually successful?

[00:39:01] Polly Wong: You know, the truth is, is that for most clients you know, influencers can reach a small target community. But we haven't seen for most clients a huge amount of scale unless you're willing to spend, a few hundred thousand dollars, with an influencer who really has significant reach and real influence on what consumers are buying.

[00:39:25] We just haven't found that for most of our clients, that actually influencers can drive any kind of sustainable scale. So maybe you pay a lot of money and you know, Mary Jane, the influencer does a series of posts maybe over two weeks about some of your new product. Maybe you get a momentary surge in sales, but it's not sustainable and you can't continue to spend those kinds of dollars for those really high touch posts. And so the one challenge that we do find with influencer marketing is it takes a lot of leg work to implement and it is often not truly scalable. It's also kind of interesting to see what's going on on TikTok, because definitely, you know, that that cut meta spend is shifting to TikTok. But TikTok is also hard to measure for the same reasons that it's hard to measure meta, right? Because of platform changes and challenges. And for the most part, because it's hard to measure the return on ad spend, on TikTok, it tends to be a top of funnel channel. Well, I can tell you that in a recession the money for top of funnel marketing is going to dry up very quickly.

[00:40:37] And so you're gonna be focused on those channels that can drive real performance and ROAS because you just don't have enough funding to, to, to, to spend on those top channels. So it'll be really interesting to see, over the next six months how advertising dollars shift around. I usually feel pretty comfortable giving my predictions for retail sales and e-commerce sales, but honestly, at this point, just hand me an ball. I have 

[00:41:01] Ricardo Belmar: I think that's where 

[00:41:02] Polly Wong: I'm gonna continue to be I'm gonna continue to cross my fingers and my toes and hope that at least for our clients, that affluent consumers are still spending 

[00:41:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And so, so on what you just said, right around top of funnel and those, is there an argument to be made that if you're going to spend on influencers or TikTok, that you're, you might wanna save that for when you have a new product launch versus just trying to drive sales of an existing product? 

[00:41:27] Polly Wong: Absolutely. It's not something 

[00:41:29] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Because you scale it right 

[00:41:31] Polly Wong: you're gonna turn it on. You can't, you're gonna, you're gonna turn it on maybe three or four times. You know, in the world of retail, we think about five seasons winter. Spring, summer, fall, and holiday. And so you're really going to lean in just a few weeks of each season into your influencer marketing and that spend and really, lean into your peak sales curve to drive those new product sales and to get that reach.

[00:41:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. If that makes sense. That makes complete sense. So, so last question for you Polly, and if, someone were to come and ask you right now, what's your top recommendation when you think about growth strategies for a DTC brand, what would you tell 'em?

[00:42:07] Polly Wong: Considering the economic uncertainty, the headwinds and the rising costs across the entire p and l, I would say that my top two recommendations are to one, lean into crm. Make sure that you're activating all five channels targeting your existing customer base, and then two, Because you're targeting your existing customers, continue to focus on your product category expansion, you know, what is your range of product across categories and price points.

[00:42:37] Consumers may start spending down they may be more value focused than ever. So, you know, what is your good, better, best merchandise strategy, right? Not only are you adding simple things like more color skews to your long sleeve t-shirt, but you know, is there a good, better, best strategy for your product?

[00:42:53] Motorcycle clients we've have worked with have done this extremely well. There's a good, better, best motorcycle helmet and the best one has got bluetooth and all kinds of fun things in it. And in, in addition to keeping your, your, your head safe. So definitely I think, leaning into your customer file is a tremendous, profitable asset.

[00:43:11] And then just giving existing customers more to buy. I do think there's plenty of time to lean into new customer acquisi. You know, as we begin to see some of the, the economic uncertainty clear up, hopefully by spring, I actually am quite confident that I do think things will level out and I think we'll be back sailing along by spring of 2023 is, is my hope.

[00:43:33] So fingers crossed. 

[00:43:34] Ricardo Belmar: I think you maybe, may be right about that. And it kind of says that if I kind of read into, the two areas you highlighted for a lot of DTC brands, there's probably some new hires they need to look for to help them with those strategies, particularly around merchandising those new products.

[00:43:47] Products like you talked about earlier.

[00:43:49] Polly Wong: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you have to, and also to pay attention to the competition. You know, it's amazing to me. I think brands do tend to be inwardly focused and. You know, maybe now people will have the time and to kind of step back and say, how does my assortment look compared to my competitors?

[00:44:06] What are my price points? What are my size ranges? What are my number of colors? You know what is my returns policy? You know, how do I stand up against the competition? Everybody's gonna have to just be a little bit smarter. 

[00:44:16] Ricardo Belmar: I think that's another great point. I mean, I, even on for traditional retailers, I, I can't count how many times in the past I've been in, in a room with retailers and asked them, Well, when was the last time you walked one of your competitors' stores to see what they were doing? you know, I, I, I don't know sometimes whether I wanted to laugh or cry at the fact that they were just crickets in the room and nobody responded when I asked that question.

[00:44:38] so there's definitely some truth to that.

[00:44:40] Polly Wong: Absolutely. 

[00:44:43] Ricardo Belmar: Well, thank you So 

[00:44:44] discuss. I'm probably gonna go down as one of the, our, our most commented episodes with so much in good information and, and advice and I think really unique details that you've helped surface here for, for DTC brands as they grow into, I would call becoming a, full channel retailer in a sense.

[00:45:03] and really didn't, know, cover a lot of ground around making old media, new media, like we started to talk about earlier.

[00:45:09] Polly Wong: Great. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been fun this afternoon to connect with you and I, I hope you both have a, a lovely fall season.

[00:45:16] Casey Golden: Definitely. For our listeners who have been furiously taking notes during this episode, what's the best reach way for them to reach out to you or follow your company?

[00:45:26] Polly Wong: Yeah, obviously we're on the social channels, but if you wanna reach out through the contact us page at Belardi Wong, if you would like to talk to me directly or have any questions or comments for me directly, I know that they'll, they'll make their way to me and I'm always happy to chat and connect.

[00:45:39] Casey Golden: Great.

[00:45:40] Ricardo Belmar: Well, thank you again, Polly, for joining us. We hope to have you back soon.

[00:45:43] Polly Wong: Thank you so much. Have a great one.

[00:45:45] Casey Golden: You too. That's a wrap, Ricardo.

[00:45:48] Show Closing

[00:45:48] Casey Golden: We hope you enjoyed our show and we can't ask you enough to please give us a five star rating and review on apple podcast to help us grow and bring you more great episodes. If you don't wanna miss a minute of what's next, be sure to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. And don't forget to check out our show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your host, Casey Golden. 

[00:46:18] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about the two of us, follow us on Twitter at Casey c golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure to follow the show on LinkedIn and Twitter at retail razor. Plus our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:46:35] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:46:36] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter until next time, this is the retail razor show.