Creative Pep Talk

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538 - Find Your Point of View, Story Insights, and Artist / Audience Dynamics with Mac Barnett & Jon Klassen

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Jan 14, 2026

Mac Barnett is a celebrated author of children's picture books, known for his rich narratives, while Jon Klassen is an award-winning author-illustrator recognized for his unique illustrations. They dive into the essence of point of view in storytelling, discussing how to balance reader interpretation with authorial control. They explore the dynamics of picture books, including the interplay of text and images, and share their influences, revealing how early experiences shaped their creative journeys. Their conversation is a treasure trove for anyone fascinated by storytelling!

01:53:20

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insights

INSIGHT

Picture Books Admit Language Fails

The picture book form lets creators acknowledge language's inadequacy and rely on visual meaning.
Jon Klassen says that admission is liberating for illustrators who become writers.

insights

INSIGHT

Fairy Tales Stick For Their Weird Beats

Fairy tales endure not because of neat morals but for strange, dreamlike beats that stick across retellings.
Barnett argues their lacunae and weirdness are the source of longevity, not didactic lessons.

question_answer

ANECDOTE

Substack Born From Text Threads

Jon Klassen and Mac Barnett started a Substack called Looking At Picture Books where they text each other essays.
They pick a single book and dissect spreads, page turns, and craft decisions together.

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First Impressions: Jon's The Skull

04:58 • 1min

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Using Revelation as Structure

06:01 • 3min

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Audience Contribution vs. Authorial Control

08:37 • 4min

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Eras of Control and Dreaminess

12:27 • 2min

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Mac B. Spy Kid and Truth-Performance

14:35 • 4min

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Lying, Tension, and Picture-Text Dynamics

18:34 • 5min

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Picture Book Form and Language Limits

23:30 • 34sec

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Influence and Interpretation

24:04 • 3min

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Make Believe and the Power of Fiction

26:40 • 6min

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Miyazaki, Fairy Tales, and Ambiguity

32:11 • 4min

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Mature Endings and Character-Driven Choices

36:30 • 4min

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Designing Villains and Emotional Permission

Looking at Picture Books Substack

48:59 • 3min

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Why Picture Books Are Underestimated

51:53 • 4min

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Becoming Fans Then Makers

55:41 • 8min

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Critical Impulse as Creative Fuel

01:03:36 • 5min

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Admiration, Influence, and Divergence

01:08:25 • 4min

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Sendak and Lifelong Preoccupations

01:12:00 • 7min

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Balancing Seriousness and Play

01:19:07 • 12min

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Theater, Suspension, and Audience Participation

01:30:43 • 1min

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Sam and Dave: Alternate Concept

01:31:59 • 4min

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Devotion to the Gag and Emotional Maximalism

01:36:20 • 10min

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Collaboration: Overlap and Difference

• Mentioned in 3 episodes

Frog and Toad

arnold lobel

Arnold Lobel's "Frog and Toad" series is a collection of charming and heartwarming stories about the friendship between two amphibian friends. The simple yet engaging narratives explore themes of friendship, kindness, and everyday life. The gentle illustrations perfectly complement the text, creating a cozy and inviting atmosphere. The books are known for their timeless appeal and ability to resonate with readers of all ages.

'Extra Yarn' tells the story of Annabelle, a young girl who finds a box filled with an endless supply of colorful yarn. She uses the yarn to knit sweaters for herself, her dog, and eventually the entire town, transforming her community with warmth and color. The story celebrates creativity, generosity, and the power of art to bring joy to others. However, her magical yarn attracts the attention of an evil archduke who tries to steal it for himself. Ultimately, Annabelle's kindness and creativity prevail.

• Mentioned in 22 episodes

Goodnight Moon

Margaret Wise Brown

Goodnight Moon is a timeless children's book written by Margaret Wise Brown and illustrated by Clement Hurd. The story follows a young bunny as it prepares for bed, saying goodnight to all the objects in its green-walled bedroom. The book features a rhyming poem and detailed illustrations that capture the bunny's bedtime ritual, gradually transitioning from a lit room to a darkened one as the moon glows outside. The narrative is simple yet effective, creating a cozy and rhythmic bedtime journey that has delighted children and parents alike for generations. The book is notable for its focus on the minutiae of a child's surroundings and its ability to induce a sense of comfort and security.

This graphic novel presents the traditional tale of Rumpelstiltskin with a modern twist, featuring Mirabelle, a miller's daughter, who must spin straw into gold to repay her father's debts to the king. The story is enhanced by Erik Valdez Y Alanis's striking illustrations, making it a compelling read for older children and young adults.

#30103

• Mentioned in 2 episodes

Making Comics

Lynda Barry

Lynda Barry's "Making Comics" is a unique guide to the art form, emphasizing the importance of personal expression and experimentation. Barry encourages readers to embrace their own unique styles and approaches, rather than adhering to strict rules or conventions. The book is filled with practical exercises and insightful observations on the creative process. It's a valuable resource for both aspiring and experienced cartoonists, offering a refreshing perspective on the power of comics as a medium for self-discovery and storytelling. Barry's approach is both playful and profound, making the book accessible and inspiring to a wide range of readers.

#998

• Mentioned in 37 episodes

Where the Wild Things Are

Maurice Sendak

In this iconic children's book, Max, dressed in his wolf suit, causes chaos at home and is sent to bed without supper. His bedroom transforms into a jungle, and he sails to an island where he encounters the Wild Things. Max tames the creatures and becomes their king, but eventually returns home, missing his mother's love. The book is praised for its honest treatment of children's emotions, particularly anger and the need for parental love. It has been adapted into a movie and an opera and remains a beloved classic in children's literature.

#10445

• Mentioned in 5 episodes

Outside over there

Maurice Sendak

Maurice Sendak's "Outside Over There" is a more complex and darker children's book compared to his other works. It tells the story of Ida, a young girl whose baby sister is kidnapped by goblins. Ida embarks on a perilous journey to rescue her sister, facing various challenges and magical creatures along the way. The book's themes of sibling love, fear, and courage are explored through vivid illustrations and a captivating narrative.

#1700

• Mentioned in 25 episodes

The Remains of the Day

Kazuo Ishiguro

The Remains of the Day is a novel told through the first-person narration of Stevens, a long-serving butler at Darlington Hall. In the summer of 1956, Stevens embarks on a six-day motoring trip through the West Country, which becomes a journey into his past. The novel explores Stevens' memories of his service during and after World War II, his relationship with the former housekeeper Miss Kenton, and the decline of the English aristocracy. It delves into themes of regret, repression, and the consequences of dedicating one's life to professional duty at the expense of personal happiness. The story is a poignant reflection on the passage of time, the reliability of memory, and the human cost of maintaining a rigid professional persona.

#32408

• Mentioned in 2 episodes

Sam and Dave Dig a Hole

Mac Barnett

Jon Klassen

#861

• Mentioned in 41 episodes

A Swim in a Pond in the Rain

George Saunders

#14909

• Mentioned in 3 episodes

What is Love

Kerry Jenkins

#11030

• Mentioned in 5 episodes

Dead Souls

Nikolai Vasilievich Gogol

Written in the early 19th century, 'Dead Souls' is a significant piece of Russian literature that satirizes the social and bureaucratic systems of Tsarist Russia. The novel chronicles the travels and adventures of Pavel Ivanovich Chichikov, who seeks to purchase the rights to 'dead souls' from landowners. These 'dead souls' are deceased serfs that landowners are still taxed for, and Chichikov plans to use them to secure a bank loan and become wealthy. The novel is known for its vivid depiction of Russian society, its critique of feudalism, and its unique characters, each with their own quirks and failings. Gogol intended the novel to be the first part of a three-volume work, but he destroyed the manuscript of the second part before his death.

Have you ever heard someone say that making creative work is about having a “point of view”? It sounds right, but what does it mean and how do you find yours?

I can’t think of any creatives that have a more compelling sense of their “point of view” than my guests today. Author Mac Barnett and author-illustrator Jon Klassen have such a strong voice, and I have been longing to have them both on the show for such a long time!!

This is an instant all-timer episode for me. These two legends from the picture book world just knocked it out of the park, and we have an incredible chat exploring how to find your point of view, the artist/audience relationship, storytelling, and so much more.

Buckle up. This mega episode starts off with a bang and just gets better and better all the way til the end! This episode will make for a great companion for a long creative session or long drive!

Hope you love it as much as I did!

SHOW NOTES:

Substack: "Looking at Picture Books"
https://lookingatpicturebooks.substack.com

"Mac B. Spy Kid"
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22Mac+B.+Spy+Kid%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

"The Skull" by Jon Klassen
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/725351/the-skull-by-jon-klassen-illustrated-by-jon-klassen/

"Sam and Dave Dig a Hole" by Mac Barnett and Jon Klassen
https://www.macbarnett.com/sam-dave-dig-a-hole

"Extra Yarn"
https://www.macbarnett.com/extra-yarn

"Where the Wild Things Are"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_the_Wild_Things_Are

"Goodnight Moon"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodnight_Moon

"The Remains of the Day" by Kazuo Ishiguro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Remains_of_the_Day

"Swim in a Pond in the Rain" by George Saunders
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609280/a-swim-in-a-pond-in-the-rain-by-george-saunders/

"Outside Over There" by Maurice Sendak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outside_Over_There

"Sam and the Firefly" by P.D. Eastman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_and_the_Firefly

"Dead Souls" by Nikolai Gogol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Souls

"Let the Right One In"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_the_Right_One_In_(film)

"Ponyo"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponyo

"Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Sunshine_of_the_Spotless_Mind

"Mysterious Things" by Andy J. Pizza and Sophie Miller
http://invisiblethings.co

"Making Comics" by Scott McCloud
https://www.scottmccloud.com/makingcomics/

Producer / Editor: Sophie Miller http://sophiemiller.co
Audio Editing / Sound Design: Conner Jones http://pendingbeautiful.co
Soundtrack / Theme Song: Yoni Wolf / WHY? http://whywithaquestionmark.com

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