David Shedd served as acting director of the Defense Intelligence Agency; Andrew Badger is a former DIA case officer now teaching state-sponsored espionage at Oxford. Together they've written The Great Heist: China's Epic Campaign to Steal America's Secrets. Matt talks with them about how the Ministry of State Security evolved from a backwater service into what they argue is the world's most powerful intelligence agency; how Beijing replaced Cold War recruitment tradecraft with guanxi-based social obligation and what the authors call "crowd-sourced espionage"; how Made in China 2025 functioned as a national collection priority list driving theft across defense, tech, and critical infrastructure; and why Volt and Salt Typhoon represent not an espionage story but pre-positioning for war—with kill switches already embedded in America's power grid and telecommunications backbone.

Subscribe and share to stay ahead in the world of intelligence, global issues, and current affairs.

Order The Great Heist: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-great-heist-david-r-sheddandrew-badger

Connect with David and Andrew on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-shedd-00a32bb5
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewbadger1

Audio: https://pod.fo/e/3a9846
YouTube: https://youtu.be/3jCFWGhI7_w

Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/secretsandspies.bsky.social
Instagram: https://instagram.com/secretsandspies
Facebook: https://facebook.com/secretsandspies
Spoutible: https://spoutible.com/SecretsAndSpies

Follow Chris and Matt on Bluesky:
https://bsky.app/profile/chriscarrfilm.bsky.social
https://bsky.app/profile/mattfulton.net

Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD: https://filmsandpodcasts.co.uk/
Music by Andrew R. Bird
Photo by Shutterstock

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.