Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

chevron_right

5 questions to ask when your product stops growing | Jason Cohen (2x unicorn founder)

whatshot 948 snips

Jan 25, 2026

Guest

Jason Cohen

Jason Cohen, four-time founder and investor and creator of WP Engine, shares a methodical five-step diagnostic for stalled product growth. He discusses why logo churn tops the list, how pricing and positioning can multiply revenue, the importance of onboarding and NRR, when channels dry up, and when to reconsider pursuing growth.

01:46:04

forum

Ask episode

web_stories

AI Snips

view_agenda

Chapters

menu_book

Books

auto_awesome

Transcript

info_circle

Episode notes

Sell What Execs Actually Value

Reposition the same product to sell what executives care about (e.g., growth, not cost savings).
Frame value as doubling leads instead of cutting ad spend to command much higher prices from buyers.

Grow Revenue By Letting Customers Expand

Improve NRR by enabling customers to expand their usage through tiers, usage pricing, or add-ons that rise with value.
Measure the customer's perceived value and make sure price increases feel smaller than the value gains.

NRR Can Mask Shrinking Customer Base

Net Revenue Retention (NRR) hides customer count decay because percentage losses require larger percentage gains to recover.
Track logo churn alongside NRR because NRR alone can mask a shrinking customer base.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Jason's writing history and approach

05:22 • 3min

chevron_right

The five-step diagnostic for stalled growth

08:36 • 3min

chevron_right

Why logo churn is the top priority

11:30 • 5min

chevron_right

Compute your churn-imposed growth ceiling

16:30 • 2min

chevron_right

Getting honest cancellation feedback

18:31 • 2min

chevron_right

Dig deeper than 'it's too expensive'

20:36 • 5min

chevron_right

Catch customers before they cancel

26:04 • 3min

chevron_right

Onboarding as the high-leverage area

29:07 • 7min

chevron_right

Rethinking pricing and positioning

35:46 • 6min

chevron_right

Sell what the customer values, not just savings

42:07 • 7min

chevron_right

Pricing is inseparable from strategy

Net Revenue Retention (NRR) matters

52:27 • 4min

chevron_right

How to improve NRR and measure value

56:46 • 10min

chevron_right

Are acquisition channels saturated?

01:06:46 • 7min

chevron_right

Find creative new channels and partners

01:13:44 • 2min

chevron_right

Framework for market expansion decisions

01:15:37 • 3min

chevron_right

Do you actually need to grow?

01:19:04 • 9min

chevron_right

When quitting or pivoting is the right choice

01:28:20 • 1min

chevron_right

Hidden Multipliers book preview

01:29:37 • 4min

chevron_right

AI tip: extract tables from images

01:33:29 • 1min

chevron_right

Contrarian: AB testing often misused

01:34:38 • 3min

chevron_right

Lightning round: books, shows, products

01:38:04 • 6min

chevron_right

Where to find Jason and closing advice

• Mentioned in 2 episodes

Hidden Multipliers

Small Things That Accelerate Growth

Jason Cohen

Jason Cohen shares a methodical five-step framework for diagnosing stalled growth, covering logo retention, pricing, NRR, marketing channels, and target market. The book explores concepts like the 'elephant curve' of growth and how repositioning can increase revenue significantly. Drawing from his expertise as a serial entrepreneur, it provides practical insights for teams facing growth challenges.

#60217

Crossing the Chasm, 3rd Edition: Marketing and Selling Disruptive Products to Mainstream Customers

Marketing and Selling Disruptive Products to Mainstream Customers

Geoffrey Moore

In Crossing the Chasm, Geoffrey A. Moore introduces the Technology Adoption Life Cycle, highlighting the critical 'chasm' between early adopters—who embrace innovation early—and the early majority, who demand proven productivity gains. The third edition updates the classic with new examples of successes and failures, digital marketing strategies, and two appendices linking to Moore's later works like Inside the Tornado and models for high-tech consumer markets.

#3293

• Mentioned in 14 episodes

Monetizing Innovation

Simon-Kucher & Partners

#174

• Mentioned in 126 episodes

On Writing

A Memoir of the Craft

Stephen King

This book is both a memoir and a writing guide. It details Stephen King's life, from his childhood and early writing endeavors to his struggles with addiction and his near-fatal accident in 1999. The book is divided into sections that cover King's life ('C. V. '), the nature of writing ('What Writing Is'), writing mechanics ('Toolbox'), his advice on the craft ('On Writing'), and his recovery from the accident ('On Living: A Postscript'). King offers practical tips on writing, including the importance of vocabulary, grammar, and style, as well as the need for consistent writing routines and ruthless editing. He emphasizes that good writing comes from within, driven by curiosity, wonder, and emotional honesty rather than commercial motives.

#1566

• Mentioned in 27 episodes

Will

Mark Manson

Will Smith

In 'Will', Will Smith opens up about his life, sharing anecdotes from his early days in West Philadelphia, his rise in the music industry as part of DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, and his subsequent success in Hollywood. The book delves into his complex relationship with his father, the impact of his family on his life, and his journey to align outer success with inner happiness and human connection. Written with the help of Mark Manson, the book offers a blend of vulnerability, humor, and life lessons that reflect Will Smith's trademark style and larger-than-life personality.

Jason Cohen is a four-time founder (including two unicorns, one being WP Engine) and an investor in over 60 startups, and has been sharing his lessons on company building at A Smart Bear for nearly 20 years. In this episode, Jason shares his methodical five-step framework for diagnosing stalled growth—a problem that faces almost every team.

We discuss:

1. Jason’s five-step framework: logo retention, pricing, NRR, marketing channels, target market

2. A small tweak that’ll double response rates on your cancellation surveys

3. Why “it’s too expensive” is almost never the real reason customers cancel

4. The “elephant curve” of growth

5. How repositioning the same product can increase revenue 8x

6. When to reconsider if growth is even the right goal for your business

—

Brought to you by:

10Web—Vibe coding platform as an API

Strella—The AI-powered customer research platform

Brex—The banking solution for startups

—

Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-your-product-stopped-growing

—

Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0

—

Where to find Jason Cohen:

• Preorder Jason’s book: https://preorder.hiddenmultipliers.com/

• X: https://x.com/asmartbear

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncohen

• Blog: https://longform.asmartbear.com

• Website: https://wpengine.com

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Jason Cohen

(05:19) Jason’s writing journey

(08:25) Questions to ask when your product stops growing

(18:17) Getting real customer feedback

(20:27) Analyzing cancellation reasons

(26:54) Onboarding and activation

(29:35) Quick summary

(35:46) Revisiting pricing strategies

(41:46) Positioning strategies

(47:52) Why pricing is inseparable from your strategy

(52:06) The importance of net revenue retention (NRR)

(01:00:25) Asking whether or not this is good for the customer

(01:04:34) Leveraging existing customers

(01:06:42) Are your acquisition channels saturated? The “elephant curve”

(1:09:41) Why all marketing channels eventually decline

(01:12:04) Direct vs. indirect marketing channels

(1:13:36) Getting creative with new channels

(01:19:04) Do you actually need to grow?

(01:25:57) Deciding when to quit

(01:29:27) Book announcement

(01:33:21) AI corner

(01:34:35) Contrarian corner

(01:37:43) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• Tyler Cowen’s website: https://tylercowen.com

• How to Perform a Customer Churn Analysis (and Why You Should): https://www.groovehq.com/blog/learn-from-customer-churn

• Linear: https://linear.app

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Patrick Campbell’s post on X about pricing: https://x.com/Patticus/status/1702313260547006942

• The art and science of pricing | Madhavan Ramanujam (Monetizing Innovation, Simon-Kucher): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-art-and-science-of-pricing-madhavan

• Pricing your AI product: Lessons from 400+ companies and 50 unicorns | Madhavan Ramanujam: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/pricing-and-scaling-your-ai-product-madhavan-ramanujam

• Pricing your SaaS product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/saas-pricing-strategy

• M&A, competition, pricing, and investing | Julia Schottenstein (dbt Labs): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/m-and-a-competition-pricing-and-investing

• “Sell the alpha, not the feature”: The enterprise sales playbook for $1M to $10M ARR | Jen Abel: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-enterprise-sales-playbook-1m-to-10m-arr

• Buffer: https://buffer.com

• AG1: https://drinkag1.com

• How to find hidden growth opportunities in your product | Albert Cheng (Duolingo, Grammarly, Chess.com): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-find-hidden-growth-opportunities-albert-cheng

• How Duolingo reignited user growth: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth

• The Elephant in the room: The myth of exponential hypergrowth: https://longform.asmartbear.com/exponential-growth

• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com

• Zigging vs. zagging: How HubSpot built a $30B company | Dharmesh Shah (co-founder/CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-30-years-of-building

• Adjacency Matrix: How to expand after PMF: https://longform.asmartbear.com/adjacency/

• Ecosystem is the next big growth channel: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ecosystem-is-the-next-big-growth

• ChatGPT apps are about to be the next big distribution channel: Here’s how to build one: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/chatgpt-apps-are-about-to-be-the

• 10 contrarian leadership truths every leader needs to hear | Matt MacInnis (Rippling): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-contrarian-leadership-truths

• Breaking the rules of growth: Why Shopify bans KPIs, optimizes for churn, prioritizes intuition, and builds toward a 100-year vision | Archie Abrams (VP Product, Head of Growth at Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams

• Geoffrey Moore on finding your beachhead, crossing the chasm, and dominating a market: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/geoffrey-moore-on-finding-your-beachhead

• ER on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/ER-Season-1/dp/B0FWK5WJQ4

• The Pitt on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/The-Pitt-Season-1/dp/B0DNRR8QWD

• Wispr Flow: https://wisprflow.ai

• Anker: https://www.anker.com

—

Recommended books:

• Will: https://www.amazon.com/Will-Smith/dp/1984877925

• Monetizing Innovation: How Smart Companies Design the Product Around the Price: https://www.amazon.com/Monetizing-Innovation-Companies-Design-Product/dp/1119240867

• Hidden Multipliers: Small Things That Accelerate Growth: https://preorder.hiddenmultipliers.com

• On Writing Well: The Essential Guide to Mastering Nonfiction Writing and Effective Communication: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-Classic-Guide-Nonfiction/dp/0060891548

• Crossing the Chasm, 3rd Edition: The Updated Version of the Insightful Guide on Bringing Cutting-Edge Products to the Mainstream: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Home Top podcasts Popular guests Top books